Personal Stories of Deportation

Welcome to the Judge Joh Hodman podcast. I am Bailiff Jesse Thorne. With me is Judge John Hodgman. Hello We have a very special episode of our program today. It is a little trip to Tijuana. with John and me and our friends from Alo Tolado So you know about Alo Trolado, it provides direct legal and humanitarian support for people in migration on both sides of the U.S and Mexico border. You probably remember that with Jesse and Thesa's leadership, thanks to you listeners We were all able to raise over four hundred thousand dollars to support Alltraado's humanitarian and legal efforts down there in Tijuana. and it was just Well, I mean, it was a profoundly moving thing to raise all those funds and provide that support, but even more moving to get to go down there and visit them at their headquters in Tijuana. Yeah, it was so exciting and amazing to meet the staff down there, many of whom are themselves folks who have been clients of Alo Troolado. manyany of them are deportees. And to see firsthand the work that they were doing with not just Mexican and Mexican American migrants, but Also Central American migrants, folks from Haiti and the Caribbean, all of whom come to Tiuana because they are seeking better and safer life. So this episode that you're about to hear we recorded at Friendship Park, which is on the water in Tihana and it is at the border wall. and the border wall is this huge, terrifying edifice in this park. It is like What is it twenty, thirty feet tall, something like that? It was, I think fifteen to twenty. they just raised it another ten recently. And, you know, on the two out of side It is in large part just a beach park But then it is also this you know, the home of this terrifying symbol of the ways that famamilies are separated, people are separated from their lives and people are kept unsafe by U. S. policy. So it was a very It was a very powerful place to record this conversation that you're about to hear, which is with AOLs co founder and legal director W. One of whom works in San Diego, one of whom works in Tiuana And John, you were nice enough to lead this thing It was a really cool, it was a really cool conversation. There's video on our website as well. if you want to watch it or share that video. But I just I was like Man, that was a really interesting conversation. We should share this on the podcast. Well Let's take a list Hi, my name is John Hodgman over there is your friend and mine, Jesse Thorne We are here in Tijuana, Mexico with Nicole Ramos and Cassandra Lopez of Alo Trllado. We are right at the edge of Mexico and the United States. And the ocean by the border wall. This is This is not the border wall. This is a nice wall The border wall, which you will see in a moment is Much larger and more oppressive and strange and sad And we are not in its shadow, but the shadow of this lovely overpass, keeping us from the sun Lets talk a little bit about Alo Golado. Alo Golado Well, Nico, you're co founder of Alo Torlado with Eric P Gieto, right But How would you describe the mission of Alo Trolado? We are a binational immigrant rights organization working to protect immigrants, refugees, and deportees on both sides of the US Mexico border. And why is it important to have representation on both sides of the border? Well, as we have seen in recent years, this campaign to deport as many immigrants from the US as possible and the increas cooperation between the US and the Mexican government around preventing people from entering the US and deporting as many people to Mexico as possible. It's very important to have attorneys on both sides of the border wall protecting people's rights. And so when was Alo Tolado founded? and how did you come to do this kind of work? We previously started as an all volunteer effort And then we came together as a formal organization in twenty seventeen in response to the entrance of Trump to the White House. Initially, when we were running as a volunteer group, we would have large legal clinics in Tikuana for deportees who were interested in trying to understand if they had a legal path to go back home to their families They have long histories of living in the U.S. decades, children, spouses, their communities. And then as the Trump administration came, the first time we saw this dramatic increase of turning away asylum seekers from US ports of entry where they're supposed to begin the process to seek asylum. That is a legal process. We decided we couldn't in good conscience, just stand by and watch the Trump administration do this to people. And so we put all of our efforts into Alo Tomado and suing the federal government for violations of the right to seek asylum at the U.S port of entry. And so when you moved to Mexico and started this work, it was A connected reason. Yeah, I moved to Mexico in twenty fourteen because my partner at the time, didn't have a path to go back to the United States. They were deported and I initially thought I was going to move here just for love, but it ended up you I found this work and this calling and started working with asylum seekers at a local migrant shelter. and the work evolved from there. and that's where I also met Erica We just, started cooking up plots and strategies to fight this administration. And Cassandra, you work on the US side. That's right as director of litigation. That's right. So tell me a little bit about your work. Yes. so I joined Al Rolado last summer and pretty immediately started focusing on petitions for habeas corpus to fight to get people released from immigration detention. The Trump administration this time around has dramatically expanded the use of immigration detention as a tool to deport people and also to prevent them from fighting their cases. It's much harder to access a lawyer when you're in immigration detention. and it's also just It's really difficult. It's hard on the family. People don't want to be in detention. So a lot of times people will end up saying, just deport me, I'm not going to fight my case. You know, you're both attorneys. I am not trained in the legal profession in any way. Before we got started, Nicole you had asked Am I a real judge? I'm a phony judge, just like a phony everything And you said, well, that's fine because most immigration judges are phony as well Can you explain what you mean? Yes, immmigration judges are not Article I judges, which means they are not vetted by Congress and they don't have a lifetime appointments. They serve as employees of the Department of Justice and they serve at the pleasure of the president, which means they are beholden to the political wins, including this current Trump administration. Now, that was not something that I knew before we had that conversation I didn't know that they were not vetted by Congress. Jessse, do you want to check is there still Congress? I mean, I don't see them, but I presume interesting One of the other things that Maybe I understood academically, but not fully was until we were at the offices here in Tijuana yesterday talking and this morning Talking to some of your clients who have been deported and And that they were deported to this countryving maybe having been born here, but maybe never having lived here Tell us a little bit about what that experience is like and what their needs are. It is an incredibly disorienting experience because not all of them are even fluent or can speak Spanish. They have no ID documentation to show who they are, which means they can't access the formal labor market, which makes them more vulnerable to being exploited. They may not have family that lives in Mexico, so they may be homeless. They don't have any information about how to access the healthcare system, how to access education and advance their studies. And for those that have family members in the US who would consider joining them in Mexico, no information on the legal processes to reunite and bring their family over to Mexico. And one of the things that came out in our conversations Not only did they sort of be dumped here without access to all these services. and often alone, you've talked about as jumping off a skyscraper R Isn't that something jumping off the skyscraper and not really knowing you know as you're falling if there's going to be an end or if there's anything that you can grab onto. And there's also a profound sense of isolation and even shame the people reported feelings. Yes, because it's changing very slowly, but there's a perception in Mexican society or that if you were deported, it must have been for a reason. You must have done something bad. And you know when people are first deported, they're even more vulnerable to being exploited by law enforcement. And so they're being harassed by the police who are also assuming bad intentions on their part And so they're hard pressed to find a friendly and familiar face. and that makes it harder for them to build community because they're operating in the shadows from the shame. Well, on this side of the border at the Altro Aado Office that we've been visiting, there is a real feeling of community. This is a place where people have been deported can reach out and get advice and access to resources And also just feel at home and safe, it seems to me. Would that be correct That would be correct for both deportees and then asylum seekers that are trying to make their way north. and that is because our programming isn't parachuted in. Our community coordinators and program managers are members of the deportee community, are members of the asylum seeker community. so they understand really well what the stakes are and what people need because they were in that position at one time One of the things that keeps coming up in the conversations and seems to be really important to the mission is meeting people where they are What does that mean to you It means not expecting someone come into an office for a legal appointment if they don't have transportation, if they're afraid to navigate the city, ennsuring that people who are linguistically isolated have access to interpretation so they can communicate with us, Understanding that maybe if someone doesn't come to an appointment, it's not because they're not interested They' not they're scared. They didn't have a bus fare and just really trying to identify what are people's needs in stages and take them through those stages at the pace at which they want to go. Right. I have a really basic question. It maybe Cassandra, you're in court in the United States. you can take this. What you hear in the states is If you don't want to get deported, do it the right way Yeah, we hear that a lot. How real is that? If If I live in Mexico, I live in Central America, I live in Europe, wherever How real a path is there to do it the right way It's pretty difficult, if not impossible for most people to do it the right way. If people are in the United States, for example, and they entered without permission, it's almost impossible for them to get legal status to stay in the United States. There are certain opportunities that they' They're just difficult and really complicated and complex. or even entered with permission in state. I a family member that that was their circumstance. R So you know for people that are not yet in the United States but have family in the United States, the family member can if it's a A brother or a spouse can file a petition for that person to immigrate. But if it's say your brother and you're in Mexico, the line to wait for the visa is like twenty five years. It's really long And for people that are already in the United States, there is no possibility to get a visa to stay in the United States legally. So it's really difficult for people and there's just really no options. And the United States, I think, has been increasingly making it difficult for people to get legal status that are in the United States, even if they've been working and following all the laws And if they have children, I hear oftentimes from people I don't have a criminal record. and I have three kids that were born in the United States, and there's really no options for them if they cross the border without permission. I mean, the thing that I remember when I worked in an immigration law firm for a little bit was we would have clients who had done nothing wrong, many times clients who hadn't entered the United States C We're doing everything right and We're on year ten, fifteen, twenty House waiting for permission to get into the country Yeah, that's, I think, a pretty common tale. And you know, it's really frustrating, I think, for people, especially if they have family that are in the United States because if they can't immigrate, either they are living in the United States in the shadows where they are subject to exploitation and you know life is just really difficult or they're in Mexico and they're separated from their family. So it's really common. we see that all the time. Nicole, I think it's easy to Forget the circumstances that bring most people to migrate. What are the kinds of stories that you hear that bring people to Tiuana from notot just all around Mexico but all around the world Yeah, we see thousands of asylum seekers come every year who are fleeing the outbreak of war. They're fleeing persecution because they are a member of the LGBTQ community, particularly trans women they are fleeing Cartel violence, but not just cartel violence, but forced recruitment of them their family members, their children being dispossessed from their land by cartels, but also international mining companies and other industry that exploits natural resources, people that are indigenous or are religious minorities in various countries that are fleeing persecution because of their indigenous identity or their religious identity. A lot of very serious reasons that if you met this person out at a cafe or a bar, you know, you would understand why it is that they had to pick up and head for the border because you know staying home is a death sentence. I mean, people don't do it casually. It's not for fun. No, it is definitely not for fun because the journey itself is so dangerous. And it's not just because they might be able to earn a higher salary in the US because everyone understands the cost of living in the US is a lot higher. You don't put yourself and your children in that kind of dangerous journey unless staying where you are is And even bigger threat to your life. Right. Isn't there a legal right to asylum? There is a legal right to asylum, which is an outgrowth of the Holocaust after the US government turned away the ship the MS St. Louis, which had over nine hundred Jewish refugees, a third of them who were later killed in the Holocaust because they were not allowed to enter the country from the coast of Florida. And so we have international law and domestic law that replicates international law that gives people the right to seek asylum at international borders. And the way you do that here at the southern border is you walk up to the port of entry and you explain to the official that you want to seek asylum and you're afraid to go back to your country and they're supposed to give you access to the legal process. You're supposed to be able to get an interview with the asylum officer. But what we have been fighting for the last nine years is this practice of the US government to turn people away when they come to the port of entry and just tell them no which then forces people to take matters into their own hands and try to cross through the mountains or the desert or the river because they have to keep moving in order to find safety for themselves and their familyil. And another thing that we've been seeing with respect to asylum is there are a lot of people that did it the right way They came to the port of entry and they were given permission to come into the United States. They were parooled in, and they're living their lives, following all the rules. They get valid employment authorization. they are here. They file their application for asylum. They're doing everything right. And then the Trump administration this time says, everybody gets detained and they are walking down the street or driving their car and they get picked up by immigration and put into immigration detention. And you know, they come to us and they're like, I was doing everything right. Why am I detained? How does someone who's detained in that way get in contact with you? Well, I think by word of mouth now, my phone is blowing up. I have phone calls basically all day. but I think that so in the facilities in the two detention centers in San Diego, people know about us and so they call me directly. Oftentimes too, they tell their family members to call because if I don't answer the phone from the detention facility, they can't leave a message If theirre family members call me, they can leave a message and I can call them back. So I think there are also just there's a network of organizations in San Diego so people will refer cases to us so And's that's lucky if their family even knows that they're in detention and where they're in detention, right Yes, sometometimes it takes a while to figure out. And we have seen also a lot of people that are detained. I've had clients detained in Miami, clients detained in New York. They get transferred out here usually to the immperial facility in Clexigo and When they're released, then that's a whole another story if they're released. They have to get back to where they're from and the government doesn't pay for them to do that. You know, it's a big hassle. I don't know anything about the Imperial facility that you mentioned. What's it like? It is out in Clexico, which is a remote part of the Imperial Valley. It's run by the Geo Group. And you know, it feels is the Georoup is a corporation' a private prison corporation R. And it is they're not the bad guys from an action movie. I mean, they are the bad guys. The GeO Group and Korsovic as private prison corporations, they have a work program so they overcharge immigrants detained for things like snacks or uprofen from the commissary phone calls, which forces them to have to work in the facility and for a eight hour shift, they make one dollar a day.. And they' you know, they call them detention facilities, but it feels like jail. You know, I was just there this morning and there's concertina wire you have to go through Several layers of inspection, there are high walls, they're confined to their cell for most of the day. They're wearing uniforms or jumpers. It's jail, literally. Do they have appropriate medical facilities? There is medical care, but I think people that have unique or specialized medical needs There is not specialists and they're doing, I would say, the bare minimum to provide medical care for people. So you know, if you have, say, an abscess tooth, like it might take them know days or weeks to get you to see a dentist. If you need glasses, sometimes that can take a long time if at all. And we' under this Trump administration, the number of people that have died in ice custody has skyrocketed. I haven't looked at the numbers in over a month, but the last time I checked, it was eighteen people that have died in ice custody. Well, I wanted to ask about that He were fored during Trump administration one. When we all read and heard about family separation, denial of asylum, all of that kind of st. Now it's Trump administration too. We hear about quotas for deportation. How bad has it gotten? So bad that they will deport people that have actually been given protection against deportation. So for example Cassandra represented a client from Mexico who was given protection under the Convention againgainst Trture. So an immigration judge said, You cannot be sent back to Mexico because you will be tortured. And they still detained him and were trying to send him to some country in Africa. They were trying to send him to Latin America to another country he'd never lived and had no connections, noies Right And so that's also what we're seeing on the Mexico side. We're seeing people who are not Mexican citizens who are given protection under the Convention againainst torture from deportation to their home country. They get deported to Mexico. The Mexican officials have no idea what the reason for their deportation is, just that they're accepting them. And so then they try to deport them to their home country Not knowing that they've already received international protection. And so that's where our Mexico legal team comes in and they're filing what's the equivalent of a restraining order against the federal agencies here to prevent them from being deported to places like Nicaragua or Venezuela so that way they can try to seek some kind of immigration status here in Mexico I have to say, you know, I live in Los Angeles where IC was and CBP were incredibly conspicuous on the streets where, you know, outside of our office literally outside of our office and Through the windows of our office, there was you know, a military rally in the park And I know about all these folks being Put in dention, move from place to place the apparent hopes that they will just accept deportation. To what extent to you does this feel like a legal effort, a policy effort, and to what extent does this feel like an intimidation campaign Yeah, where the objective is to make people's lives miserable? I think that's exactly what's happening. I think that the people that are part of the Trump administration's immigration team like Stephven Miller, they are virulently anti immigrant and want there to be no immigration to the United States. And so they're doing everything possible to make it as hard as possible to access the courts, to fight your immigration case, by using detention Deporting people that otherwise before would have been allowed to remain in the United States while their case went forward. people like youth, people that were the victims of crimes and could be eligible for a U visa, people that were in the midst of their asylum case. Now they're basically trying to deport everybody and also using, I don't know if you heard about this, Nicole, but they're starting to do these like mass master calendar hearings or they're going to bring in like one hundred or two hundred people at a time and you know not give them due process, not give them an opportunity to fight their case and deport them or hope that many of them will just say, give up, I give up, I'll just go back to my home country. let me ask you this. L I think for a lot of legal organizations that are working on immmigration issues There is a win, which is somebody gets to stay in the United States And there is a loss, which is they don't get to stay in the United States And that's the scorecard Why is Alollado invested in both groups of people I I think that we cannot let the United States be our North star. They are not the beacon of human rights that they have created a lot of propaganda to put out for us to all believe. So that's the first response. And then we need to meet people where they are. And just because they've been sent to Mexico doesn't mean that we can't help them find security in a place like Mexico. We can also fight policies And create programs on this side to create spaces which are dignified, which people can flourish and feel safe and have community because your dreams don't stop just based upon a border wall. And so that is the way that we approach this work. That's a really important word because I'm thinking a lot visiting with you here Cassandre, you were saying Not only is it the position of this administration and its team on immigration to make it hard but also make it terrifying. And to rob people of dignity And it really feels to me like a big part of the mission of about what Dorado is do Give them that dignity backag or remind them that they deserve it. Remind them that they deserve it and remind them that they didn't get this far to let you know that orange toddler in the White House dictate what their life is going to be like and how they build community and how their life is measured What I heard when I was talking to folks who are served by Alo Folado earlier today and yesterday was I heard all these stories of Various kinds of forced migration, people who had to leave home for so many reasons, right? And that is A trauma and it's not a choice. That's something that people are forced to do. Nobody wants to leave home and What I heard was people telling me That what Alt Rolado gave them was there agency back evenven just presenting the bad choices Yes All the choices were various amounts of bad Even simply that made them feel as though they could make that choice And reminded them of the courage that it took them to get out of the terrible situation they were in before and the potential for a new and better future. Yeah I think a lot of people have questions after they get deported. That's one thing that we do as well, like provide people information. L here you know there is no option for you to go back to the United States legally. Here's what happens if you go back illegally It looks like there could be a pathway for you to return. here are the options for you. So we're giving people information after they get deported, which is also really important because there aren't other organizations really in Mexico that are doing that. I was joking with a Cuban woman that I talked to this morning about documents because I got a temporary residency here in Mexico recently I've never apostealed so many documents in my life. And I'm gonna to be frank with you. I had no idea what Apost Steelman was until I had into that word up No Iither go into the Secretary of State's office and be like, do you know what Apost Stelman is Um, And one of the basic services that Allrado can help people with is just helping them have a piece of paper that says they are who they say And that's Like the the price of that's the that's the table anntte for engaging with the bureaucracy, not just of the United States, but even of Mexico if they want to stay here. Yeah, and how to navigate systems because one of the principles of our work is that people have an absolute right to accurate and timely information about the systems that are impacting their lives. And so now with so many people Being sent to this side of the border or being unable to seek asylum through the port of entry, they have to register their kids for school. They need to access the healthcare system. They need to work and understand what their labor rights are. They might need to leave their husband and get a restraining order. And so that way people are not staying in situations which are undignified and dangerous, giving them information on how to self advocate and how these systems work empowers them, They take that information, they use it for their own lives, but then they share it with their community. And so it's a way not only of empowering the individuals that we serve, but being a ripple effect to empower communities with this information. Why is it important that so many people who work at and with Alorollado have been through programs at Alorollado because they needed them because they themselves were migrants of some kind Because the ills of the world are not going to be cured by lawyers alone. It doesn't matter if you have strrong disagree. laawyers are fantastic. You know, you could have a really fantascy pedigree and a Harvard degree or from Yale. Or from Yale O from UC Santa Cruz, which does not issue legal degrees Sorry. It would be in history of consciousness. go ahead. But you know the programs are designed by people who understand what the needs are of our clients because they once had those needs. and they might have received services in other places and thought, you know, this is not how I would like to be helped they are the closest to the communities because they might have friends or family that are still migrating. And so they know about new trends. And so the way for us to be responsive and respectful is to ensure that the people that are leading the work know what the work is truly about. I kept being reminded of my father who was a veterans' organizer. and was a veteran himself. And I thought of all the times that I saw him. working together with other vets And the extent to which It was implicit in what they were doing that no one could understand what they were doing the way that a vet could. and that no one could understand them the way that a vet could. And when I talked to people who had been deported, who worked at Alo Tllado, I heard over and over, I can say to someone I have been in this position because there's a lot of people saying you can trust me. when you're in the most vulnerable point you could possibly ever be. And being able to say like, hey, I'm one of you. We're one of one And not only that, I've been there and I'm here now. Yeah, you know, which is an important thing. I would imagine for people to see and experience. It's really exciting to see our staff who maybe when they joined the organization, they were really passionate about the issues, but they still weren't sure, do I have the right to be here? Do I have the right to speak on these topics? And now they're going out and they're traveling internationally and they're presenting at conferences and they're talking to reporters and they're realizing the power that they have within themselves. And so when you see someone that empowered or that had that experience, what you're experiencing right now, that gives you hope that this is not the end Now, obviously, hiring the staff and running the programs that you do costs money. And the good news is, I believe in twenty fourteen, you discovered a mountain of gold worth twenty five billion dollars. John, that was a presumption on my part. I wrote that on a piece of paper and handed it to you, but I did not verify it. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that How do you support the work that you do? The first year we worked without salaries. and now our work is supported by a mix of state grants through the state of California and individual donations and then larger grants from philanthropic foundations. So obviously the next part is if people wanted to help Ala Trolado, what's the best way to do so You can go to our website, you can donate at the website. We have different links. You can send us Venmo, you can pay in crypto, you can pay in stocks. you can leave us in your will. And then people who want to have small events where they want to talk about our work and maybe get a speaker, get some materials We can work with you on creating events to spread awareness about our work because it's not just the money, it's also changing hearts and minds. So that way we are all invested in an immigration system and a border that reflects the dignity of all human beings, not just those who have white skin and those that have sufficient income to cross borders easily. I mean, and spreading awareness, it would seem to me would be very important too, because I spend a lot of time in the state of Maine which is a border state, but a different kind of border state And you around the same time as Minneapolis this year, IC came in and started the Operation catch of the Day was the name of the IC operation that was picking people off the streets in Maine, particularly members of the Somali refugee community, some of whom I think all of whom had protected status. And some of whom were teenagers. And I don't think that people in Maine and certainly not people necessarily the people in those communities, were aware that this was going to be happening there. These people were taken to detention centers in Texas and other places and who they could possibly turn to. So just talking about the organization, I think, and spreading awareness is probably pretty important too, right? It's really important. And we also have a community facing TikTok page where we're putting out information about immigration policies for people that are in the United States as well as people who are at the border in nineteen different languages because people don't realize how diverse the immigrant population is and how many languages people speak so along lines you know ensuring everyone has a right to that access that information in their own language that they can understand. Right. And there are many languages spoken at Altraalado as well. I mean, I think I heard French earlier today. Yes. ourur staff speak French, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Spanish, and English. So I was really struck by your saying that The United States is not the North star the goal to repatriate people to the United States other and the idea that the United States is not the beacon of human rights that we told ourselves we were. the future is very uncertain as to whether that will ever be true again. right? So with that in mind, what do you see the future for Alo Trooladto being? How does that affect your sense of mission Well, we're not leaving the United States. They're not going to kick us out of the United States. We know have to keep fighting for the kind of due process that we believe people are entitled to under the US Constitution. I remember that thing. Yes. it's a paper. I heard that we should follow it unclear whether we are. Yeah So you know we're going to keep representing individuals, particularly individuals in detention. We're going to keep advancing litigation to challenge policies and conditions in detention centers. But we're going to continue to expand our presence here in Mexico and Latin America because know they keep pushing the US government keeps pushing the southern border further and further south sending IC officers to train Guatemalan border officers how to prevent them from entering Mexico. And so wherever they are, need to be so we can be informing people what their rights are, collecting information on the way that they violate people's rights and then working with attorneys across borders and advocates across borders to demand respect for the rights of people in migration. And I think one of the strengths of Alo Colado and one of the reasons I was really excited to join the organization The organization is so nimble and pivots to address an issue like when they closed the borders and there were refugee camps or people that were refugees here in Tijwuana, you know they were like, we got to address this. What do we do? How do we do If there are, you know this in the wake of family separation, first off, Alkoava was a plaintiff in that litigation. They're like, we got to fight back. We've got to address this issue. So the organization is really responsive to, you know whatever immigration crisis, you know, of the moment Now we're focusing on habeas and my work because they've increased the use of immigration detention and it's like so necessary, so needed. So I think a really it's a strength of Alo Galado that know, we're not just like, this is what we do. We're doing this one thing, but you know we pivot and we address the needs of the immigrant communities as they come up and where they are, and where they are exactly. phhysically and emotionally. Yeah I have a selfish question on behalf of the Judge John Oudban audience, which is Like we did this fundraiser for Eo Torado a year or so ago. I just, you know, my wife and I had a personal connection to the organization and we're very passionate about the cause and want to do something good. And I thought, well, look, if we're going to make a donation, maybe we'll put it on Judge Jan Hodren and see if we can get the audience to match it Um and And I said no way. But then Jesessse told me a little bit more about the organization and my opposition Defiance disorder abated. And I said yes. We did In the end, what I thought Maybe I thought I could turn our thirty grand into sixty grand. turnurned into just about four hundred thousand dollars U and, you know That wasn't like our donation anymore. That was the gift of thousandousands of are frankly not that huge audience U And I wonder if you have a message for them, all those folks that signed up to just send ten bucks a month too Golado or to give fifty dollars instead of going out to dinner this week. Well yeah, because as the campaign was running We were talking about it in our presentations with immigrant communities here on the Mexico side and explaining, you, we know it looks bleak. We know the border is closed. We know that you're receiving all this messaging coming from the U.S that we don't want you here. You should all leave. But you should know that there are a lot of good people that don't believe that and that are actively fundraising right now so that way we can continue to provide services that we can expand services because they believe that you have the right to migrate, you have the right to reunite with your family, you have the right to be somewhere safe. And you might never ever meet these people, but just know that they represent the kind of America that we're fighting for. And I think people really took that to heart Even if they couldn't see who was helping them, that they weren't alone and that even if they were receiving messages that their lives didn't have any value and were not wanted, that that was not what everyone in the United States thought about them. And when people donate to Alo Colado, really every dollar, but that donation has a direct impact on their immigration case, their options. unlike in a criminal situation, if you can't afford to hire an attorney, the government will appoint one for you. That doesn't exist in immigration. So if you can't afford to hire an attorney, you have to represent yourself. And immigration law is so complex that if you don't have a lawyer representing you, it's just impossible to navigate. Soingalo was providing real services that have direct impact on people's lives, getting them out of detention, helping them navigate the immigration system, winning their cases, and giving them a path forward. I saw the look on the face of a refugee woman who was came to Tiibuana from Guatemala with her two children by herself with her two kids And what it was like when She first saw her kids in the school uniforms that all dll thatll helped her get. Yeah And I know that it means a lot to me to work with an organization that is not only doing large scale advocacy, not only pushing the system on a grand scale, but also has a real sense of style because you you love fine tailoring like those suitper uniforms,. But also is in a position to find the real human points of friction that can make somebody's life a lot better and in some cases, it saves somebody's life. And sometimes that's just a uniform for school, you know. Sometimes that's just People kept telling us, I I didn't know where the airport was. I didn't know how to talk to a lawyer. I didn't know I could talk to a lawyer All those things are C Chidian in their own weird ways, but they're things that change the trajectory of people's lives Anyway, sorry I'm crying about this. Thanks for making jokes, John We hear that. I mean, I hear from clients and their families every day. Thank you so much for the organization for you know, and I'm not fixing, we're not fixing everything. Sometimes even I'm not helping them win their immigration case. Just getting them out of immigration detention, you know has all of these ripple effects. They have young children They're the breadwinner. they have health issues. O spouse has health issues. There's so many different things that just the one thing that we do do has really tremendous impacts. And you people are really grateful that we are able to help them. I mean, I'll tell you, one of the things that really set my feelings about the immigration system was when I was in my late teens My dad worked with the Lao community in across the United States, but especially in the Bay Area where I lived And there was a very elderly Laoan who had been put into immigration detention. He was in his eighties. His family did not know where he was, and he was without medication that if he went more than a day or two without it, he would die And the Herculean effort it took, an entire community to find a man my government was hiding in detention was trying to prevent us from finding so that he could get some kills that would save his life Now this was obviously, this wasn't a guy who was getting deported because he just murdered someone This is just somebody that just got picked up And the fact that not only was my government detaining this person Not only did my government think it was an appropriate use of my money to put an eighty something year old man in jail But that my government, and again, this is long before the Trump administration, right that my government felt that its job was to take him away without telling his family where he was or indeed anyone where he was so that he could get the pills that he needed to keep himself alive They wouldn't provide him a Lad translator Unfortunately, we hear stories like that every day. It's really awful. And you know as a taxpayer, certainly that's not how I want my government money, my taxpayer dollars to be spent. But really, you know targeting good people, decent people, hardwking people that are living their lives, raising their kids, they're just like you and me R? And then you know all of a sudden, one day, you know, they get picked up and they're thrown into immigration detention, mayaybe they're deported. and you know it's a real tragedy for not just them but for their entire families. And sometimes for their communities as well. Well as somebody that comes from an immigrant community that who has a parent who is undocumented, who has lived and worked and been friends with migrants of all kinds and documented undocumented my whole life U I'm so grateful for your work and I'm so proud and grateful of the audience of our show and of all of the folks who support Ao Falalo It just It's been such a comfort to me in really scary and difficult times to know that you guys are out there working and to know that our folks helped make that possible. So thank you for that. Yeah Indeed. Thank you. Thank you. Well And I'll just say, you know, IC is on the streets sending a message of terror And it's really, really hard to look at if it doesn't directly affect you and you don't have to look at it. I'm very grateful to all the people in Minneapolis, St. Paul Portland, everyone else who went out there to demonstrate, because what they're demonstrating is not everyone feels this way. We were talking about that earlier. And that's really, really powerful and important. But it's also important to remember that all those people who get put into the back of a van or who are deported here, they have real material needs that need to be taken care of The demonstration is really important, but if you can't get out there in the street, there's another very important direct way you can help, which is by supporting Ala Trolado. You know, I've seen this, we're in Friendship Park in Tuana. I've seen it on camera before myself, but never in person. And it's really upsetting and haunting to see. Obviously, there are beautiful murals painted on the wall that are inspiring, some of them by your clients. Aavier contributed to one of them And then I walked down to the ocean and The wall goes out into the ocean and then understandably stops And you see the waves crashing against the wall And one half of the wave goes to Mexicil, and one half of the wave goes to the United States. And it's absurd. Those are my reflections. I saw this, I was speechless. You've been here, you've been working on these issues. You've seen this. What do you think about when you come down here and look at this wall? I think about how many people have died trying to cross it, including trying to swim around it. The current is very strong and people have regularly drowned I think about all the pieces of the wall that have just been added over the years because when I first got here, all of this Constantina wire was not there. People could visit their families on the weekends through the wall. And then they added all of this wire and mesh, metal mesh And then people couldn't touch hands for the wall, they could only touch pinky tips. and they used to call it the pinky kiss. That was the only human contact that they could have with their family members. I see all the murals on this side of the wall is a great act of defiance for us to show that the wall does not define us, but it's quite unnatural see And you know I think as those of us who are old enough to remember the fall of the Berlin wall, being televised and thinking, you know all walls must fall and we're entering a new era, since that time, there are even more walls at borders across the world, and that is a product of the US government The US government we send CBP, US customs and Border prrotection officers and IC officers all over the world to show other governments how to create stronger border enforcements to prevent people from the global South from getting to Europe and from getting to the United States, which is deeply ironic because people are often fleeing conditions that were created by European nations and by the United States and Canada. So in that sense, we are criminalizing and penalizing the victims of our own foreign policy. When I look at the wall, I see a tremendous waste of energy, time, resources, U and it it feels kind of it maybe seems Like not quite right, but it seems so futile, right? Like you can go under a wall, you can go around a wall. peoplee find ways to cross the barrier. and no matter how big we build it. So it just seems like we're constantly pouring, you know attention, energy resources into this wall for what? to what purpose? to visually traumatize people. It feels really visory on purpose, you know I guess Something I was thinking about as I looked at the end of the wall as it extends out into the ocean. was I thought, you know, does this border continue on into the ocean? There's no wall there and really the wall is a symbol of a thing that is purely a construct of our imaginations. that a human being born here is no different from a human being born a hundred feet that way And seeing that wall end into nothingness reminded me of the extent to which this border and all borders are imaginary. They are constructs. they are not inalienable human rights. They're the opposite And you know, on the one hand, it's a sad thing to see. It's this big reminder of the ways that we hurt people's lives in the name of borders But in a way, it's inspiring to be reminded of how imaginary borders are. I could get you to just react to one more thing. Are you checking out these cute baby squirrels over here? 'cause they're amazing. I way I see. Yeah. I don't know, somethingomething else to look at, I suppose. Well, that's interesting though, because the wall also impacts nature there's a lot of degradation of the environment by the construction of the wall. and it's also been built over sacred ground for indigenous communities. They The last few weeks, they haveve been blowing up part of a mountain along the California Mexico border that has real deep significance to one of the local indigenous communities that has been protesting, and it has also impacted indigenous communities that have been accustomed for thousands and thousands of years to go back and forth, to visit family that live on both sides of the wall. And now we are destroying communities and cultural traditions The government's moving ahead to build a wall in Big Bend National Park, which is know remote, beautiful area in southern Texas and they're going to build this ugly wall through there. It's really sad. I just wanted to talk about these baby squirrels, but you're right to remind me of these things. Also important. So I'm a native born American citizen. I have a U.S. passport. I've been to a fair number of countries in the world And I've never been I've never been prevented from crossing a border. Be that US. passport gets me across most borders in the world. easily And I think that for most people in my position, that is an unexamined privilege What is it like if you are one of the most of the people in the world who can't cross borders freely? Well, I think we see people Taking desperate steps, desperate actions. Both Nicole and I actually have a background also doing federal criminal defense where we were representing people charged with illegal reentry. That's a wholenother thing. But you people are so desperate to cross that they'll risk going to prison for years just to get over to maybe be reunited with their family or get into the United States it's like you, I'm an American citizen. It's hard to imagine not being able to just go wherever I want to go. And yet that's the way it is for many people in the world. And I think it' you know, it's dehumanizing. It makes people feel Just like They don't have the same rights.'re not they don't have the same access to the things that we consider fundamental. And that you know Americans can't even imagine what that would be like. I think many of us, at least. And so I think for many people, it is it's like they're lesser than They're not quite the same degree of pers. They don't have the same rights as other people as Americans do. Well and to be denied freedom of movement is a kind of detention. Yes. I think a lot of Americans also forget that there are millions of Americans that live abroad, including hundreds of thousands that live here in Mexico, and not all of them are here legally in proper immigration status But because they are American, no one is questioning whether they belong And it's easy for me to get a furniture set from Thailand or a television made at a factory in Juuez. But the people don't have the same freedom of movement as objects. And you know why is it okay for a retireree or a digital nomad to post up in Mexico City because they want to have this different or what they view as a better quality of life, but it's not okay for a indigenous Guatemalan woman who is fleeing persecution by an international mining company to resettle in Los Angeles so her children don't die What are some other ways that people can Get involved We have aational international network of volunteers. You don't have to be in Southern California or Tichuana or Mexico City to volunteer with us. We have a lot of remote volunteers that speak another language that help ensure people on both sides of the border have access to the information that they need and their language And we also accept volunteers from all different walks of life. We have retired teachers, we have law students, we have lawyers, we have social workers. One time I had a woman who was a baker and she was making these fabulous wedding cakes because we were helping refugees get married here in Mexico. And so there really is a place for everyone to contribute because to build this movement of respect for the human rights of people and migration, it's going to take all of us Go do it. We talked about the individual small scale legal advocacy that Ea Tolado does What is the legal advocacy that the organization is doing on the largest scale possible in the United States going before the Supreme Court? Yeahob, we also do impact litigation, so where we're challenging large scale national policies. We recently were at the Supreme Court in March challenging a policy known as metering, which basically forces asylum seekers to register themselves with the Mexican government in order to get a turn to seek asylum in the U. S, even though the Mexican government has its own history of violating the human rights of migrants. And we've been fighting this policy for eight, nine years now and' won Att the federal court trial level, we've won at the appellate level in the Ninth Circuit twice and the US government, they you know, they don't like to lose. So they hauled us before the Supreme Court and we expect to hear from them in the coming weeks and the coming months. So we are living in this like intntimidation campaign, this like relentless intimidation campaign that things are hopeless for migrants, particularly in the United States. Immigrants of all kinds What are the signs that there are actually hope or opportunity For those folks I see the hing the outrage of everyday citizens that don't necessarily come from a protest orientation. You know they're not regularly trying to burn down the halls of government. They're just regular people that are coming out and saying, not in my name, not with my tax dollars. You're not taking my neighbor And they're really going toe to toe with IC with CBP, which, you we've seen has resulted in the deaths of US citizens. And so I think that is hopeful that people are willing to leave their comfort zone that you know I saw in the news a clip of senior citizens in wheelchairs and walkers leaving a senior citizen care home to go to a protest. So even though they can barely walk, they are taking steps to protect the rights of immigrants. So that gives me hope that not all is lost. And to channel that anger and that frustration and that not in my name impulse and put it to direct good work, those people can volunteer D dontate to h a lot. Absolutely Fighting and not giving up are profound expressions of hope. Yeah. So thank you, Cassandra and Nicole for fighting and not giving up and letting us be a part of your effort Thank you for coming down here. Thank you So Jesse, I didn't understand that This friendship park used to be a place where people would meet across the border Yeah, I mean, we can look through The border wall here And what we saw when we were looking through it earlier was just CBP guys in pickup trucks driving back and forth And what it used to be was to gardens So if somebody was separated from their family Yeah They could meet here. and you know, love each other through the wall Have a picnic together whatever by it What we see now is there's another wall beyond this wall. The effect of that is that it prevents people from coming together. Yeah, I guess Separated families coming together to just see each other was too dangerous How are you feeling having been here a few days I mean, the answer is profoundly moved. like First of all meeting with Yeahallo to a lot of folks who are not just activists, but people who have experience quotation displacement ver the kind of misery on purpose that The system is designed to instill And Also bear witness to surviving that. and builduing something that extended hope to others. So that already was amazing And you know, when Javier was describing This mural that he helped work on. The coondor and the eagle You know, it wass hard for me to picture. justust what an incredible Wor of protest, this is, just to add beauty to something that is so monumentally ugly and de visit and oppressive to experience in person I've been thinking a lot about the ways that Alo Tolado puts agency into people's hands. Like people who are migrants are people from whom agency has been taken. in large part, people who are forced to travel across borders U Don't do it because frivolously, you know, right? and We heard so many stories about littleittle things that put control back into the hands of people who have experienced extraordinary trauma And not like problem solved Like sometimes little problem solved, but you can't fix the whole system with one action you can change the course of someone's life by making sure that their kids have clothes to go to school Yeah. And you know, the whole system is built on robbing people of dignity and agency, as you said And so yeah It's not like the day to day work solves a huge problem every day. and at the end of the week All done each day of contact between people like Priscilla and Javier between Bidget and the people that she works with, particularly in the trans and the LGBTQ community it just It restores dignity. which is a massive thing to offer to somebody. And I think that's really important and not a part of it that I understand for coming Al lookroolado is not a huge organization and going to this office in Tiuana, seeing You know, five, ten, fifteen people working I think to that money that our audience gave. Yeah And I think that ke people employed. Yeah, absolutely That wasn't just a drop in the bucket of the United way. God bless them, right That was that kept people on the ground in Tuana helping people get a paintbrush in their hand helping people walk to the border so they can present themselves in their asylum case All these things that Eltolado does happen are happening like directly because of the people that listen to our show and it is It is really moving to me that that is the case. He Breathtaken to me That's something that I thought about too walking around the office And, you know seeeeing the printer paper and seeing the lights on but mostly seeing the incredible people who are not merely volunteers, but employeed. to do this work and not professional, I mean, obviously There are attorneys who are invaluable doing invaluable work for this, but People have been through this system, survived it Brew through the help of Allraado are giving back to it and they're being compensated and knowing that You know, our listeners and so many others contributed to making that possible for now. I mean, my dad was an organizer and Be in that Alo Troolado offffice talalking to the folks who work there who have been through the programs at Alvo Cholado, who are themselves migrants themselves refugees, themselves deportees I thought about my dad's commitment to the idea that if you are organizing, if you are trying to help people. The way to do it is to ask them what they need Yeah helpp them provide it And I thought, these are people who No these pains personally And that's not just essential because they can then prescribe the solution. It's because They can speak to someone who is in pain peer as somebody who knows what that person has experienced And that person can then trust them I mean, in general, there's nothing more offensive than telling people what they need and in particular, telling people Why don't you just do it the right way? I've had Cassandra spoke about that really powerfully. like The right way is an imaginary path that a lot of people who don't want to reckon with all of this and what it means and how it divides lives and destroys lives. It's a nice story that they can say, Well, they they just had this opportunity to Press this other butt But that's not that's not available And when you listen to people, That's when you start to realize Every case is different, distinct, And often People are trapped. I mean, this is not, as you say, a pleasure journey. you know, people are fleeing dangerous situations and other countries, even in their home country. of Mexico in particular They're searching for safety, not for five liter Coca Cola bottles in the way of life, quote unquote They're searching for safety for something that The United States prromised to the world. And that promise is being broken in the most painful and awful way including and certainly not limited to taking people who did it quote unquote the right way got asylum or got protected status to be in the United States while while they were working through their immigration status and putting them in the backs of vans and disappearing them to places, you know without legal representation and into Makeshift jails that are run for profits I mean, it's truly It's truly disgusting and frankly criminal To me, this wall is like a It is a physical manifestation not of the reality of this border, but of the unreality of this border. Yeah. that if you don't build a giant Mal Edifice. Yeah. It is clear that the people who are people here are the same as the people who are people six feet away from where we're standing right now. Yeah, well, that was why it was so dangerous, I guess to let them see and touch each other through the wall becausecause just being in Tijuana you and for that matter being in San Diego, for that matter being Southern California, for that matter, being in Northern Maine, if you live anywhere near a border You know that these worlds and these cultures are interconnected no matter what And it's just an arbitrary piece of paper, accident of birth that essentially condemns some people to a lifetime of being trapped. and nothing could be more sort of illustrative about how arbitrary and cruel and weird and dumb This wall is at it ends of the ocean where there are no borders And you know, like I went down there and Even though I knew that that was the ocean and this wall had to end there, seeing the end of the wall couldn't even get that far out into the ocean and seeing waves crash against it and the waves being divided into Mexico and the United States iss just stupid. They're waves, they're people. it's all the same You want to watch it again? Yeah. U L looking at the wall I've been thinking about WWJD What would Jesse do? What would Jesus do? And Thinking about how clear the Bible is about how we are supposed to treat migrants And look, I can't tell you that I'm sitting around reading my Bible every night I can tell you that if You claim that Christ's words are guiding your actions. You need to think about whether this reflects those values. Yeah You need to think about Would Christ tell somebody who had traveled on foot from Guatemala with their two children Chichiuana because she needed a safe place to live that she has to go back When I think about it, you know, a Another foundational document. which I was rereading recently for E plurbismano, what we call the United States Constitution partarticularly the fourourteenth Amendment which guarantees birthright citizenship Among other things equal protection under the law And, you know, due process persons in the United States set aside what's happening Mexico, the United States The whole country amended the Constitution, put in its founding document We all agreed on it. Everyone is allowed due process under the law and it does not say citizens. It says persons. and it does not say citizens on purpose because in the previous sentence it says citizens This is if you are one of these people who believes that I'm a strict constitutionalist I believe in the Constitution I don't believe in activist judges because I'm a strict constitutionalist It's gonna take you gallons of melatonin to sleep at night watching Iice disappear people off the street without due process, without legal representation, without access to face their quote unquote accusers without even acknowledging the convoluted immigration system that they are trying to participate in for the most part People need to look at their principles and put them into action. birthright citizenship is under attack from the White House right now And we've seen that the Supreme Court does not really seem to care a lot about the Constitution and is willing to reinterpret and rewrite and be the most activist pack of judges with some exceptions, obviously. N there's ever sat on that Natch And it could be that birthright citizenship is wiped away, even though it's in the Constitution. And I think it just speaks to how important taking action is showing your disapproval of what's going on through protest and voting and especially volunteering and helping organizations like Electroolado I think it's just impossible to look down at the end of that W See it lead into the ocean and think that this wall is anything other than imaginary. Right. It's impossible to look out at that expansive ocean and think borders are real. Right Absolutely He's saying that I can walk through that wall If you say so, Jessse, I'll give it a try Thank you for listening to our conversation with the folks from Alo Tllado, and thank you to them for inviting us to Tiwana to get to see their work firsthand and get to see the impact of Judge Sohan Hodgman listeners incredible efforts to raise money for their work I was thinking like what were the things that were really powerful about it for me But the first thing that was really impressive to me was to meet the people of Alo Troolado, both the people that they serve and the folks that work there know one of the big things that they do is services for folks who have been deported. And Deportees are not a focus of services often, they're not a focus of charity because Um Because people would prefer to forget that they exist Certainly the United States goovernment would prefer to forget that they exist. When we were talking with Rgo, one of the one of the staffers of Alos Rrollado. He told us he got deported when he was eighteen, nineteen years old And he had lived in the United States his entire life. And he said they just drove him across the border, took the leg shackles off of him and the CPB guy said Oh Wlcome to Mexico, Don't come back. Um And so folks who are crossing that border often donon't have family They sometimes don't speak Spanish U many of them have never lived in Mexico And so one of the big things that allotroluto does is just things that can help folks who have been deported build a new life for themselves in Mexico, as well as look at you know, the legal possibilities for migration back to the United States or elsewhere. but like The biggest thing was Just like, how do you build a life? But I was reminded of, you know, my dad was an organizer and when I was a teenager, he started an NGO in Laos because he had he co foundounded it with a Lao American woman Namntan And u The aircraft carry that my dad served on had bombed the place where Buntan's family And, um One of the things that he always said was that International Aid in particular is so obsessed with telling people what they need And you just have you have to what you actually have to do is ask people what they want Ask people what would make their lives better and find out how you can facilitate them getting that U and Aloolado was so there for that. I mean, the other thing that it reminded me about about my dad was Like my dad, when I was a kid my dad got clean and sober when I was like, or something like that shortly before I my memory And but I do remember going to a lot of AA meetings with him And also him having a lot of organizing meetings at our apartment in San Francisco for fellow vets, both the AA meetings and the organizing meetings And what I saw over and over and over was the way that fourour vets who had been through trauma Being in a group of other vets meant the world to them because they did not have to explain themselves to each other. It was like a world where everyone could feel safe because everyone could feel understood by each other And That was both from folks that we talked to who were getting services and the folks who were providing services so important and central was like Folks who have just been pushed across the border or just shown up in town from Southern Mexico or Central America or Haiti They're looking around for who they can trust, but they are in the midst of trauma and not sure who they can trust And so to have people there who are providing the services, who have been through those experiences themselves and understood them themselves meant that they could you know, they could feel safe in accessing those services in a way that they couldn't with, you know, these are people who have been abused by governments and other power structures Yeah, that's something that really struck me. Just how many people at Eo Tlado who are providing services for people in need already received services from P peopleople in need. That's how they became part of Alo Trelado Now, because we were on the Tijuana side, a lot of the stories we're hearing were primarily about people who had been deported from themselves, from staff members you you had mentioned u u Oh Ro. who was deported as a young man. U we met Priscilla who had been deported and She has a new grandchild on the US. side, I believe. We don't know when she'll have a chance to meet that person. She came as a deportee to Mexico and to Tijuana, a place she had never experxperienced or b, she You know, she's from California. Yeah, Central California. rightight California. Grew up right near UC Santaruz, where I went to school. Yeah Al Eltrolado helped her get situated and find her way in a city in a country that was completely foreign to her And she pointed out as did others that you know, deportees have a profound stigma attached to them in certain Mexican communities becausecause sometimes they are deported from prison or they have tattoos. The stories that I was told or we were told. was that often, you know, Native Mexicans would look at them and say, you had your chance in the United States and you blew it And we won't give you a job Bridget is a woman who transitioned trans woman who transitioned while in U S. prison and then was deported to Mexico, originally her home community in Mexico, had to flee that home community pretty quickly after that because the cartels were controlling that neighborhood, came to Tijuana, a city she had never lived in. and you can imagine Being a deportee, having that stigma attached, and then also being a trans person how difficult it would be to find a job. to find your way. without performing sex work, you know? And Bridget met Nicole, who was one of the co founders of Alo Trlado, who invited Bridget to come in and lead the LGBTQ outreach program at Alt Rolado in a paid position and had just when we spoke with her had just returned from Bangkok at an international conference on Migrant rightights I mean, what a profound Change of life. for someone who could easily have been the victim of violence or oppression on either side of the border and now in a country where She spoke Spanish in that case, but you know, Javier, an artist, that is one of Priscilla's clients, you know if I remember correctly, came to the United States at four months Four months grew up in Oakland and ended up being deported at the age of thirty four Yeah. with a wife and everything and became an artist living in Mexico He he uses the internet handle, the deported artist. and created some pretty incredible artworks on the border Yeah, he runs an art program at Alo Tolado. There's a former client there And he told us that when he was first living in Mexico after having been deported again in his mid thirties, having never lived in Mexico You see he was profoundly depressed. because he didn't know anyone. Of course, the stigma attached to being a deportee Uh H Spanish wasn't great. Uh he spoke Spanish with an American accent and people would make fun of him and u He really and, you know, his entire life had been upended, and not by his choice He said he was really depressed. He told us that He was talking to his wife Yeah and said How come Bob Ross is always so happy Alls right, He was watching Bob Ross videos of the old oy of oil painting. And his wife bought him a paint kit and he became a painter immigration and immigration policy has been a mess for a long time Friendship Park, you know, used to be on both sides of the wall U The U.S. side got torn up And according to Nicole, one of the co founders, that happened during the Biden administration There's a lot of blame and recrimination and criticism to go around But there are a couple things to remember that I was reminded of and I try to remind myself of a lot right now which is that A These two communities, San Diego, Tijuana, are profoundly enttwined through family connection and constant border crossing That chainling fence, right? or you know that you could play volleyball over, you know, the border used to be a lot more porous down there. and guess what As a country, we were proroud, we were pretty okay for years, decades You know, the crisis is one of political convenience to some degree. and it is not about It's not about bad guys and good guys It's about humans. One of the things that we were reminded of Hantly And I think people need to remind themselves No one leaves their home country for another country for fun You know whether you're seeking asylum crossing the border to the United States or being deported or whatever it is that puts you in that profoundly vulnerable situation It's not fun It's not a trick It's not sneaky You know? Havier was brought over at four months. That wasn't his choice, you know? Brew up and was in his community. And even if you get into legal trouble to be deported. it's no fun to be walked over the border and to be left there in that district You know, one of the things that they had outside that kiosk was in English Deportee Welcome Center. That's for people who just got dropped off. And before Al Altrlado, that didn't exist So how would you find your way Daniel Spear, our video editor is down in the control room with a microphone. Hi, Daniel. Hi. You came with us on the trip and you had been Tiuana many times when you were growing up But you also were sort of in the midst of a really intense experience. uh coming at you from the United States at the same time that we were down in Mexo Yeah, I don't want to overstate how close I am with this friend. I've worked with him before in the past, but I have a friend Baraka. Who's a musician. I've made a music video with him. He goes by the stage name Frankie Jack's nomad He was detained by IC may fourteenth at one thirty in the afternoon. They picked him up outside of his apartment where he's been staying in Portland for a residency up there He's currently staying in the Tacoma Washington Iice facility He has a lawyer. He has been connected with a lawyer. They're raising funds to try and get him released. He was born in Kenya, but he's lived in LA and Portland for over eleven years We'll put a gofund me link in the show notes, but There's merch If you like merch, free, Frankie Jack's Nomad. He's also got music you can buy on Bankcamp All of that will go to his legal defense and It's weird. It's weird seeing Stuff on social media getet closer and closer to your circle U uh until it's starts to be people you know Um it's it's scary and surreal and u as that circle closes, it's, uh I don't know, it's nice to have people that care peopleople that know Um And his partner is supporting him through this and he has a big support system. and I look through a la that helps a lot of folks that don't have support systems. U, but I'm very glad that u He has a community that can hopefully help him and hopefully get him out of that facility as soon as possible. It must have been quite the experience for you, Daniel, to be down there. U As somebody who grew up with the border as like a source of enrichment in your life. Your mom is from Tihuana Um And you know, your dad also Mexican from Mexico City And like you grew up going over the border once a month, like it was just like part of your life to to have that binational life. I mean, growing up in San Diego, it was pretty normal for any Mexican family to just cross like once a month to a point where as a kid, you're kind it's so normalized. You're like, Ohh, mom, I don't w want to go to TJ this month, you know? L it was almost an inconvenience. But now looking back, those are some of my fondest memories of like We have a routine. We go to the mercado where you can get the handpicked like groceries and the The coconut, we always get a coconut. there'd be a dude in the corner with a machete and he would cut it and put like the chili powder in it and everything. It just is a huge part of what was something so easy to do, you know, like crossing back and forth. and Now. Going through Alotorolado, every single person there Almost every single person had a story about family separation and not being able to go back. And about the last time they saw somebody, Um and loss whether it be somebody in their family that they just couldn't see anymore because of the border and deportation or someone who had died because of the circumstances of the border and of these relations between these two countries Well, I was really grateful that you could come with us. I was really grateful that they invited us and that we got to go. you know, they were very clear with me. When I went to see Edica Pignerto in Mexico City a few months ago Erica, who, you know, I knew as a young man in one of my first jobs working at an immigration law firm U Eric was very clear with me. She's like you know, the the new administration led directly to huge cutbacks in any kind of help or aid for immigrants and migrants. And one of those one of the ways that that manifested itself was Alo Tolado lost some big contracts to provide legal training to migrants, among other things. because the government no longer wants migrants to know their rights And She said very directly to me, if it weren't for the money that Judge John Hodgman listeners supported all of s loto with we would have had to cut back on services pretty dramatically and lay people off And I didn't really know or understand that until she said it to me. I'm still reckoning with the generosity of Judge Jon Hodjman listeners, and I'm just so grateful for it If you're somebody who's supported with a oneet time donation and want to make it a regular donation or you weren't in a position to support all Tolada's work before and would like to do it now It's alro Lalo A L OTRo LA d o. org meaning the other side in Spanish and you can become a regular donor, you know, you can send him ten bucks a month or, you know, you can send him fifteen dollars right now if that's what you got in your pocket And because they're they're We're really grateful for the work that they are doing in the world. It is really making a direct impact on people's lives Thank you, everyone for your support. One of the most moving things about And sobering things about being there and looking at that border wall was knowing that Jesse and I could come back to the United States and there would be no problem. Our thanks to our friend Daniel Spear, our video producer who came down with us to our friend Dan Wallally, DJW who came down as a volunteer and helped us with so much of the video production stuff and audio production stuff down there Our thanks to Rguma of Valin and AJ McKon, who contributed to the production of this episode that you are hearing here. And most of all, thanks to everybody who is a Judge Jn Hodgman listener has supported this incredible work that Alo Troolado is doing. Again, you can go to Aloroolado. org or there's a link in the show notes here and become a supporter right now Maximum fun A worker owned network of artists owned shows. supported directly by you