Review of the Crime Thriller Tuner

Before we begin, a quick reminder that you can become a vanguard Easter and get an extra episode every Thursday, includluding bonus reviews. Extra viewing suggestions. Viewing recommendations at home and in cinemas. Plus your film and non film questions answered as best you can in Qions schmestens. You can get all that extra stuff via Apple podcasts or head to extrtakes dot com for non fruit related devices. There's never been a better time to become a Vanguarde Easter. Free offer now available wherever you get your podcasts. and if you're already a Vanguarde Easter We salute you Hello Hello, Simon Mayo. It's Mark Kermo Password Sorry State the password What password? exactly what an impostor would say. So I mean it's Mark. We host a podcast together public information You've been watching Mission Iossible again, haven't you Right, well, you are not Ethan Hunt and most people don't need a team of agents to protect their information. 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Terms and conditions apply Today's program Hello by the way. is that battle which many people have fought this week between quietness Coolness I have just shut the door homeome littleittle studio here whichich means that as we progress through the show, Mark, I will be turning Puce Are you cool there I'm fine. I mean, actually because'm in my I'm in my bespoke studio downstairs in the chapel in Cornball although upstairs on the roof There are several people banging nails in because the roof workk is still going on But actually it's quite cool because it's an old Methodist chapel. So they're built with, you know the like that stone that just actually stays cool. So I'm fine. I'm sorry that you're swellry. I know how hot it is upstairs in your house. It's like it's a whole new country upstairs. It has to be said, but I'm sort of halfway up And halfway up the stairs is the stair where I sit. There is there isn't any other stair quite like it Anyway, but I am doing a show in shorts today, which is really not kind of a good thing Oh You know, you should never go to working shorts, but I feel as though people will understand. you know, my personal circumstances here Can I tell you an uplifting st Well a story, I'll be quite quick, okay R Is it uplifting or not Well, I think it is. I don't know whether you remember, but I used to wear a signet ring. I had this signet ring that I wore all the time and it was my grandfather's signet ring. And when he was when I was a kid He used to let me put it on my thumb because he wore it on his little finger, He put it on my thumb and I would because I was so impressed by it. anyway, after my grandfather died, the signet ring was left to me and I wore it ever since was you know, since I was a kid. And it's one of my favorite things. And about seven months ago, I lost it. I had it adjusted because it was slightly too small and my hands had got larger amazingly. and And I lost it and I was pretty sure I knew how I'd lost it and it' come off in water and it was gone. and I was really kind of upset about it but I also did the thing about okay fine there's nothing you can do. it's gone. it's gone, it's g Anyway, last week car in the yard that had been sitting there for ages and ages that we had to finally had to sell Um and somebody came along and towed it away And there was just like leaves and markking everything under it And the good lady professor her outdoors was sweeping up the leaves under the car And she found my grandfather's ring It must have come off when I was fixing the exhaust and I literally feel like it's come back to me from because I had in my head, I had completely got used to the fact How long How long was it gone for six months And it was literally in a load of leaves that she was sweeping up and she was sweeping them out onto the things. So she could have not seen it. She could easily it was literally sitting there under the car. It must have come off when I was doing work on the car And and I had anyway, so There it is I have it back and can't I can't tell you how happy it's made me In that spirit we're gonna have to resume our hunt for our missing Rembrandt just in case. That's right I've forotten it's fallen. It's fallen down the crack somewhere. Just refresh the listener's memory. Oh, well, is we had a Part of it was a question, Smashton, what have you lost that's upset you or something like that. And There is this much, you know, it may well turn out to be absolutely nothing, but A friend of the Good Ladys Ceramesitter indors former partner was an art dealer who many years ago gave G good ladies, phamasist her indoors, like a drawing on a sheet of A four, which looked, you know, pretty ancient fed away and a few years ago we were in Amsteram, we went to the Rembrandt Museum And there's a series of his illustrations and it looks exactly like the one that our art dealer friend gave. So came back to look for it, thinking, No, I don't think it can be. we can't find it anywhere. So that's it. So somewhere in the house, there might be one, alternatively. He might have been done by this guy and it's worth like Tub and take me. Well, I could tell you for a fact, it wasn't under the car, so I'm sorry about that. No, All right. but that's very good. When you find something like that, is just amazing. It It was so thrilling. And she did the thing but I came in and I was Grump I't what was going on I grumpy, I was doing something. And she just said Hold out your, close your eyes, hold out your hand And I did and it was like It's like, you knows like the sck that folk song in which there's the woman who throws the engagement ring into the sea. and then years later she's working in a fish shop and she slices a fish open and the enngagement ring falls out, you know that it's like it was literally like that level of magic. I can't I'm so I'm so glad to have it back Do you have only her word for it because it could be that she hid it. She could have pawned it And then for six months and then she made some money then then got it back and then just handed it to you I used to have this musical notes jumper that I thought was very rockabilly and she thought was very horrible. And then I couldn't find it for ages and I wrongly accused her of having hidden it parent has not done something similar to onene of their offspring has just got some terrible terrible trousers or shirt. No, I put it in the wash. I haven't seen where of these it's right at the bottom, underneath the towels. Anyway, on the show, as we slowly heat up, Well, Mark doesn't, but I certainly will. What are you talking about? Pack show, we have reviews of Tuna. You interviewed Leo Woodall last week Power ballads, which is the new film by Johnarney of whom I'm a big fan. Backrooms, a creepy psychological horror based on a viral series and Dear England on that there BCIPer and television, which brings us to our special guest Yes, he's James Graham, one of the most prolific and well regarded playwrights in the UK. So nice to talk to a writer James Graham will be along and inake two Mark, what's going on? The directorial feature debut from Kristine Scott Thomas, My Mother's Wedding and Fairyland, which is produced by S Soophia Kubla. You can get Take two with no more ads by heading to our Patreon page where you'll find all kinds of loveliness. An email from Sophie in Leeds Warwick Alumnus, two thousand seven Tossle flats and hume Cresence. Very good. Last week, Simon mentioned a mite of trouble that University Radio Warwick got into regarding submarines. Yeah. I mentioned that we were taken off air. as a university radio station because we were broadcasting to submarines, even though most of them University couldn't hang it up Anyway, as a former engineer and treasurer for URW or as it was in my day, Rw RAW radio Warwick, I can confirm the veracity of Simon's story and provide some context to it One stipulation of student radio licenses is that you have to be bound You have to bound your broadcast area to broadly the students populace of that university. So as Warwick is a campus university, the easiest way for URW to do this is via an induction loop system which is very similar to what you find at banks, post offices, cinemas and such for people with hearing aids. The aim of an induction loop is that everyone within the loop can receive the radio signal, but almost no one outside can However, if you give a group of keen engineering students several miles of cable to surround a campus and the associated transmission equipment, you run the risk of ending up with an extremely over engineered system onene that not only broadcast so loudly on the AM frequency within campus that it interfered with most other radio and TV signals, but it also ended up transmitting at a much lower frequency and at very high power the other way, out of campus. Unfortunately, this was the frequency used by the Ministry of Defense to talk to submarines in the North Sea and North Atlantic It turns out was somewhat louder than the MOD's transcript. Suffice to say that even in my time at Radio Woric in the twenty first century the cease and desist letter from the MOD was still framed and in pride of place on a wall of the control room Hello to Jason, up with stududent Radio and down with the loss of Long Wave. discussed, But anyway, Sophie, thank you very much indeed. So that yes, so they are genuinely true, even though it was just full of student broadcasters trying to be What were we trying to be, I suppose, No Lebmanz or someone I met Most of the campus couldn't hear it, but all those submarine commanders could It's worth remembering that Radio five, before Radio five became radio five live, When it was radio five, it was set up. simply to protect nine hundred and nine and six hundred and nine three, which were the wartime frequencies that the BBC owned but weren't using anymore. They were just running, I think they were repeating worldld service on it. And there was a change in the legislation which said you can only hold ont too those frequencies if you broadcast something new. So they literally made up radio five overnight which was why in its early stages, radio fied consisted of like Johnny Walker doing phone inss, pop records and Wiggly Park, which was the kids, you know series. And then me and Karen Heating somehow bumbling our way through a sports related afternoon show where neither of us knew the first thing about sport Yeah, I would quite like to hear you do a sports show. wouldn't no, I think it would be quite entertaining. Anyway, correspondence at Kobemo. comot thank you to Sophie and Les for sending that in. proroof that I wasn't going mad. Anyway, if you see a film, do let us know what you think about it. Send us an email. For example, something that's out this week would be Power Ballad. Power Balladard is the new film by John Carney, who's the Irish director of Ws Begin again Sing Street, which you know I'm a huge fan. He is far and away the best director of films about making music and being in bands. He's one of the only filmmakers who actually gets films about being in bands right. So this is co written by Carneie and Peter MacDonald, who also has a co starring role here also features former Carney collaborator Jack Rayner and Having a rose, Lu Lu who will come up again because she is also in Tuna which you spoke to Leo Woodall about last week. So Paul Rudd is the main stop 's writ power He is the singer and guitarist in a wedding covers band called Get this The Bride and Groove I'll do that again edding covers bang called the Bride and G grop, isn't it? So he it was once a pop hopeful. And in the opening scene when we see him playing a wedding and he's filling the floor with all these kind of bangers. and then he says, R right, now I'm going to play a track from my first album and of course, the dance floor cleaar At the next gig, one of the guests guy who was a former boy band member, played by Nick Jonas. you know of the Jonas' brothers of the Dann's brother. Yeah. who then, you know, had, you know so he gets up and sings a song with the band. He sings, you know, I wish with the band and it goes down very well. He is called Danny Wilson. Now, Danny Wilson, not to be confused with the rugby league player, Danny Wilson or the football player, manager, Danny Wilson or the character from the film, meet Danny Wilson or the band who took their name from meet Danny Wilson, although the front man of that band was is Gary Clogg, who is a regular collaborator with John Carney. So I imagine that that's why called Dany Wilson So Danny now wants to put his you got Danny wants to put his boy bang career behind him and be taken seriously because his record company have told him, you know, Really you need a hit And he spends a drunken evening with Rick after they got up on stage together and did the I wish thing riffing on songs, you know, including one that they knock around called How to Write a song Without You and they drink and they play and they bond and they get on really well and Danny gives Ricky' guitar and they go there separate ways. Sime later Ricky iss walking through a supermarket. And he hears the song the song that he co wrote that drunken evening with Danny Wilson, but ironically, Danny Wilson is now claiming that he did write that song without you. and Rick is not B pleased. So the whole thing is What do you do You wrote that song, but apparently you didn't. Anyway, here' is a clip Bea every song I ever wrote aboutout Yeah Okay, Okaykay, so do you have a bridgetet I've been working. One of things doogged me for years. We could finish this right now. I wish no, I can't. I gotta go. My daughter has got to get to school. My wife has work and if I'm not hauling to take her, she's gonna skin up Not a phrase one hears every day No, thankfully. So anyway, look, as I said before, I'm a big John Carney Fan. and I like his films because they tend to have that thing that combination of feet on the ground, head in the clouds. In the case of this Firstly, Paul Rudd is surprisingly convincing as The once wannab be American rocker who shipped up in Ireland, fell in love settles down. parked his touring dreams, got on with leading a slightly more mundane but also very honest life. T it' to Nick Jonas too, who is very, very good as the boybander who you absolutely believe in as somebody who's trying to put his past behind him and be taken seriously, be dropped by the label if he doesn't get a hit The story is somewhat outlandish, particularly in the latter bit of it when Rick and his cohort Sandy, who was played by the co writer go to LA to confront Danny about the writing credit thing. Even when the plot gets a bit fanciful The basic idea about I wrote that song and you stole it sticks. And one of the reasons that it works here is that the thing that he's really aggrieved about, it isn't the money It's just that I wrote that You know, I was involved in that. I did something. I actually wrote something that's become successful. And there is there's a great scene which I won't spoil. in which there is a discussion about Why Only he could have written that song And I think what was smart about it is that in the midst of all this other stuff There is a heart in the drama, which is that it's about the thing about something that you created that's personal, somehow being taken away from you. The script incidentally also has to return to a word that we've been trying to define for such a long time, has a very, very good denoument the way in which it finally ties itself up, works because The real themes of the film that aren't to do with money, although money is a part of it, the real themes of the film kind of emerge organically in a very nice I mean some people might think the ending is a little bit too neat. I rather liked it. Also, if you're a John Carney fanboy, there's a there's a very there's a very amusing busking cameo which If you loved once, I think you'll find it really enting. I really enjoyed this. It was the last thing I saw on Tuesday yesterday, in fact. and I had ahead of me, a very, very long and very, very hot train journey, which was, you know five and a half, six hours down to Pennzands. And honestly, this just put a real spring in my step. I thought it was I thought it was It's my favorite Paul Rudd film. I've not really been a huge Paul Rudd fan in the past But I thought he absolutely nailed it in this. Did you have Aircon for five and a half hours going down to Cornwall passing AircO. There were some seats had more aircO than others. All. I think that's called having the window open. Still to come after the break, Mark will be reviewing Backram's tuna. We'll talk about Dear England because James Graham, one of the most prolific and successful writers in Britain today will be joining us shortly The biggest tournament in soccer is finally here and I've already started planning my watch parties. My go to move before kickoff is stopping at tootal wine and more to grab drinks for the whole crew. Wine, beer, seelters, maybe a few ready to drink options, everything we need for a full day of matches. With this many games, it definitely helps knowing you're getting the lowest prices Total wine makes it so easy because I can grab everything I need in one stop. Get Match dayay ready with total wine and more today. so you're set from kickoff to the final whistle. Spirits are not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. drrink responsibly must be twenty one Heat up your fourourth of July at the Home Depot with our wide variety of grills under hundred dollars and make every gathering one to remember. Give your outdoor space a glow up. whatever your budget is, with savings on seasonal plants starting at five dollars. With the grill fired up and your backyard set to perfection, you'll be able to invite friends and family over to kick off the party Start celebrating with low prices guaranteed at the Home Depot. Prices may vary stistor exisions of pricey Home Depot com sl priceash for details Okay, well let's rock with the top ten movies according to our box office information that is been made available to us.ct At number fifteen, Tom and Jerryree Comass Nowhere in America, but Yes. See last week's show for review Cosmos K yes, cosmos Kbe. fromom our YouTube channel, Tom and Jerry is huge in China. This is basically Warner Bothers licensing out the IP rights to a Chinese film company to take advantage of that name and specifically made for mainland China U which is what Mark was saying last week. Paul says Dear Tom and Jerry, a long timee listener, yadda yadda, you asked parents who took their children to see this to write in and tell you about it I did. So I am My daughter, being seven and not even a little discerning, enjoyed this film, but I'm not sure she actually knew who Tom and Jerry were before Pcise same lies with me However, as your review was on the take two pod along with Wonder Dog, you held back whichich was the bad film. And sadly, I As of yet had no I have no subscription and I went in blind We holding a m I'm holding a mild grudge on you for that one. Afterwards, I caught up with your review on YouTube and that was clearly something I should have done first and I'll carry that regret for a long time. Good grief What even was this? By the time Jerry appeared, I was half convinced I wanted to leave. By the time the compass thing sent them to wherever it was, I knew I wanted to leave. I do tried to Parent snooze what I felt were worst bits, but it was just too loud and annoying. Yeah I hate people who check their phones in the cinema as it disrupts my immersion. And although I tried to do it very quickly and quietly, I apologize to the other four parents who also had to suffer through this experience and may have caught me doing it. But I had to know that time was moving forward and there was going to be an end sometime. I can only imagine I annoyed them slightly less than having spent money on this atrocity I have so much more less polite things to say about this film, but let's keep it radio friendly and just simply say Avoid with the power of an immortal phoenix or whatever the hell that was. Here's the betteret Films ahead, yours, Carl. In fact, I think you said Mark it was one of the worst films you have ever seen. E seen. and I would like to say that the message you can take away from this is subscribe You could have saved yourself all that pain Yes, and saved yourself the ticket price. It would been cheaper to Yess not contributed to this horror which as a result of you paying money for it, may now produce another one. Interestingly though, it's not in the American chart, and neither is Charlie the Wonder Dog, but it is at number eleven in our chart. Well, it's better than Tom and Jerry. Okay, The Christopherers is it number ten? Yeah, I think you and I both think this is terrific. It would just be interesting to see whether or not anyone remembers it comeome awwards season The Super Mario Galaxy movie is at nine. huge hit. so brought a lot of people into cinemas. It's a shame the film isn't much good Finding Emily is at number eight. I thought this was quite cute. It definitely looks like an advert for Manchester nightlife, which I am up for And it has it has a certain degree of charm, but I think it's also It doesn't surprise me that it's not higher than it is. I mean, it's okay. It's perfectly fine Number seven here, number six there passenger which I thought was very creepy I think all that that the sort of breaks down in wood and weird stuff that you can't quite see through the trees was very well done. And incidentally We are currently in a period in which there are some very, very good horror movies making the top ten. There'll be another one that we're going to review this week if you are a a horror fan and I'd say particularly a mainstream horror fan, there's a lot of kind of very interesting mainstream horror at the moment. Number six is the shape detectives, number five in America Bizarrely charming, strangely affecting. I love the fact that we've had emails from people talking about how the film is actually about addressing grief because you would never think that a who done it starring sheep could be that, but I think it is Andt number five is Dressam two. Yeah, this wasn't press screen. This is a Malayum language Indian crime drama. If anyone's seen it, do drop us an email The Devil West Pradder is four here and four there. This is obviously Devil West Prader two Huge amount of money, not much imagination, much too much plot. Obviously with the caliber of people involved, it has certain pleasures. But I have now spoken to four separate people who went to see it. and went, yeah, it's not very good, is it? Obsession is at number three, An email from Nick who says, Dear Nicki and inverted commas Nikki Longtime listener, rare caller, but I simply had to write about obsession, a film that has stuck with me since I saw it The weekend it came out. I truly believe that it's one of the best horror movies of the past decade. G. It is absolutely nerve wracking throughout and my heart was still racing half an hour after I left the cinema It delivers on the thrills and the gore but also has some strong thematic meat to it Exploring coercion, consent, abuse, manipulation, and yes, obsession The way it is shot and lit is fantastic with Nikki often being in shadow while speaking, but with a glint in her eye, giving a deep sense of unease. All of this, however be nothing without the astonishing central performance of Indie Nverett is Nicki, who gives an unbelievably creepy and unsettling performance, but who never loses sight of the tragedy of the character. Highly recommended and there is a fantastic scare that is all the more impressive because you can see it coming a mile off And yet it made me jump out of my seat Love the show. so so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so so much down the Nazis. That's very funny becauseuse that is also a self referential joke because that's how much she loves him after she is cast on He loves him so, so, so, so,,, so much. That's very that is a terrific email. and actually I think that's probably a better review than mine I don't think that's true. Anyway, number two is Michael, because that's still hanging around I mean, What are you going to do? What are youre going to do? Say previous weeks for. See previous weeks weeks U And it's number three in America. And number one here and number one there is the Star Wars colon Mandalorian and Grogu. Okaykay Have we got emails? Yes, yes, yes, we have. Right. Let's dive in, shall we? Well, first of all, let me try and assemble some so I said that Becauseuse you gave your review last week and you were talking about the fact you don't you haven't watched the TV series. Yes, that's right. And I mentioned that Child one loves it so much He big Star Wars fan and he has a Mandalorian helelmet on his shoulder or his ar No top of his arm. Y He has a tatoo, Simon. If you say he has a Mandalorian helmet, it makes it sound like he's a grown man with a toy helmet know, given may have as well. Given whatance. But what I said to you was, could you ask Child One to go see the film and report back from the point of view of somebody who is a devotee of the TV series. Yes And he sent me a photograph of the ticket. He went out excellent. He got special dispensation And he went out and he watched it for us basically. He got special dispensation from childcare duties because amongst other things, Ch one is also parent. to two boys. So here we go. So basically he said Did I enjoy the film? I did enjoy the film. It is cute and some of the action scenes are very good. It is clearly not a movie. It's clearly supposed to be the fourth season of the television And you can see where all the episodes have been cut together. Each half hour section, he says, is different from the previous half hour section. U All the best bits feature Grogu Yes The Mandalorian doesn't change. He's just the guy with the helmet, you know, obvious he does good things, but that's what he stays. He stays as the guy doing good things He said so I was lting I really enjoyed the film. Is it a good movie? I'm not at all sure that it is.. But it's better than the book of Boba Fett, but as I hadn't seen that, that doesn't mean anything to me. but He has seen and read everything. He said the recent years have been very disappointing apart from TV side Andor which is brilliant and the first series a Mandalorian, which is also brilliant So he did enjoy it because he's immersed in it, but's not convinced that it's a good film. But that's great because honestly that's very encouraging because what Child onene is saying there is what I was assuming was the case having not seen the TV series that he's quite right, it's not a movie. evenven to my untrained eye, looked like a TV series that had just ended up on the big screen. Absolutely right that all the best stuff is the stuff with Grogu because the puppetry stuff is the best stuff about it and It is, I think that even as a fan He seems to be in line with my response, which was someone who appears to be called Zo. It says it was mesmerizing in IMax three D. I really loved it a lot. I had no expectations forw it As an extension of the Cantina scene, which was my number one childhood memory of Star Wars. I think the phrase the old prrotect the young and then the young prrotect the old nicely sums up the film and it has a positive message. By the Mandalorian choosing to care for his child AK Grogum becoming a parent, he heals his own trauma and can find peace. I appreciated that Jabba's son is a hero figure and a very liable slug I give it an A because it was satisfying like a great slice of key lime pie with a macadamia crust and coconut flakes to finish off the whipped topping That's a very specific reference. It is very, very much so Paul Buck says, I wanted to share my thoughts on Mandalorian and Grogu for context. I've been a Star Wars fan since I was five, staying up late in nineteen eighty two to watch it on TV, even broken up by adverts it completely captivated me and made me fall in love with the movies Post Return of the Jedi era has been a mixed bag. Rogue One was a high point, Force Awaken showed promise and or Star Wars at its best. Season one of the Mandalorian was genuinely great Overall though, it's been a bumpy ride, which brings me to the Mandalorian Angrogu I have never experienced sitting through large parts of a film in such despair punched forward with head in hands to sum up how I felt here's a slightly edited version of the message I sent to my Star Wars loving friends. Okay I would rather sit through EWok's caravan of Crage again The whole thing felt like an AI hallucination. The story centers on a buff ripped son of Jab of the Hutt, a Vin Diesel Seth Rogan hybrid I have no idea how that character survived the first draft. One Grogu joke stretched to about fifteen. It's just overlong meandering set piece after set piece. It jumped a blue whale, throw a ring of fire into a shark and straight out the other end For balance, most of the Grogu scenes are genuinely great, especially Grogu trying to get Mando into the tiny shelter, and some of the cinematography is among the best Star Wars has ever had Sadly, none of that could save the film. I don't hold much I don't hold out much hope for the Dave Falloni era. He's the guy who created all the animated stuff Yeah The issue is cany this is according to child one, Can he do the big stuff like Tony Gilroy did He also gives Del only gives himself two cameos in this film apparently. Anyway Paul says longtim fan of you both, your passion enthusim and occasional despair about movies is always a joy to listen to. Anway It's a big movie. it's a huge hit and it's and it's number one in the book. And does it appear to be even though you haven't seen the TV series? Is it clearly obviously as far as you're like edited together as you know, a TV show into movie? It was interesting when Ch One said that thing very astutely that every half an hour It's a different film. My version of that was I said it's it's plotted like a video game, which is, okay in this bit, you have to go to this place, do this thing and get that thing and that it was a series of those things. But I think Char One's explanation that it's Half an hour, half an hour, half an hour actually makes a lot of sense Okay, more discussion on current films in the Oflow car park in T two, which you get on Patreon. Moments away from my chat with James Graham to England in just a moment studies come together on a Windows eleven PC. And for a limited time, college students get of both worlds Get the unreal college deal, everything you need to study and play with select Windows eleven PC's. elligible students get a year of Microsoft three hundred sixty five premium, and a year of Xbox GamePass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows dot com slash student offer. Lawupplies last ends june thirtieth, turnerms at aka dot m slash college PC This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling? Smart move An anotherother smart move Getting help from one of State Farm's nineteen thousand local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto Bundling, Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state Okay, so stand by for a chat with James Graham quuick reminder, you can get a take one and take two. ad free, plus our bonus take Ultra every fortnite. We're doing one today Plus access to the I was speaking on Wednesday, so it's already gone out Plus access to w It was great, I think. Plus access to the witardainment community on Patreon. Does Bob Dylan allow you to send in your best dad jokes? No he doesn't. No he doesn't. He doesn't anyway. otherwise it spoils the line So this week, we're going to talk to James Graham, the writer of Dear England and one of Britain's most acclaimed contemporary dramatists His writing often explores British institutions' power National identity He's responsible for quiz based on who wants to be a millionaire Cffing scandal. Inc about Rupert Murdoch's rise in nineteen sixties Fleet Street soon to be released as a film directed by Danny Boyle, which we just touch on at the end of this conversation and hit BBC drrama Sherwood exploring post industrial tensions in Nottinghamshire So you'll hear my conversation with James Graham after this clip from Dear England We're looking for someone To man the fort temporarily until we find a permanent replacement for Sam. Oh, okay, right. of which I' if you sorry you don't mind me saying, Greg, You will also be in the running for long term, of course. Just to say it out loud. caretaker manager has ever gone on to actually beat a manager, have they? You never know, you know, you Yeah Well I would Obviously only be able to manage the team in a way I'd want to do it even on a temporary basis, and to work on the things I think urgently need to be done. Of course. What do you think needs to be done I think there's something really wrong here Something is going wrong in England. And that is a clip from Dear England. I'm delighted to say that it's writer James Graham, one of the most esteemed writers in the country, I think it's fair enough to say. Joins us. All right, James, how are you? Good, Simon, how you doing? Well I think Looking at you and looking at me, we're both perspiring somewhat heav. We're talking during a heat wave Dear England is on the television, all the episodes will be on iPay. I guess most people really know where we are with this, but assuming someone is coming to this completely completely blank. They've got no idea what we're talking about Where does this TV drama Takers So it's it's the four tournaments basically under Gareth Southgate when he took over the England team back in twenty twenty sixteen And to me, I feel like I'm slightly biased in this having invested a lot of time in this story and being a Gara Southgate's head I think it's one of the most remarkable examples of redemption and resilience in our public life that I can think of in a decade, essentially. It's one of the few examples where somebody took something that was not working, in this case, the men's England football team took when we're at an historic low I got used to being kicked out of tournaments in very early stages. and then suddenly this guy comes along who was basically remembered for this one tragic event twenty years ago when he missed a penalty comes back as the manager and not only does he transform the team tactically He transforms the team culturally as well. That was his big thing, the culture. how do I change the culture and the environment and the mindset and the psychology and the relationships of England men's football team. So that's it. It's like a classicorting underdog story where someone comes in transforms something and hopefully takes them to success. I won't spoil the ending for you if you don't know it. Well, that's the trouble is we know most of the endings even them. We've forgotten the agony, you bring it back to us in every episode. So the play was fantastically well received, one an Olivier adapting it to the TV required Are you good at adapting your own material? and what did you add or subtract from this I actually do find it really hard to adapt, particularly from stage to screen.'s for some reason had I been commissioned, I think, to write. an original screenplay TV or film about the Gara Southgate Shakespeare in a hog. I would have found that infinitely easier. There is something Weirdly, weirdly difficult, even though like you said, it happened on stage So you've got a lot the dialogue, you've got the characterizations, you've got the world, you've got the research, you've got the information, and yet somehow I actually find it really, really hard to unpick what you've made in one particular grammar, one particular language, in this case theatre how you restucture reshape, redefine that on screen, you sort of have to perform a factory reboot on your brain, you have to unlearn all the things that you've learned in terms of structure and style and So And begin again, you have to ask the question. if I were starting this on screen, what would what would it be? what would the structure be? what would the yeah, what would the shape be Obviously I' Theatre is a very abstract expressionistic form. TV is more naturalistic, more literal but it gives you thoses of strengths as well. It can be more intimate. You can get inside the characters heads more. you can reduce the amount of speaking and Tust your actors to tell a story with an eye flicker or a look of things like that. So it's I do find it hard, but I'll leave it to you and the viewers to see if it feels like hopefully its own pce own piece of screenwork rather than a play on telling. This is it. some words that appear before each episode James, dialogue, The dialogue has been imagined by the author Yes I was interested in that because We obviously know that because you are the writer U And it was a line that I kind of wish always appeared before every episode of The Crown which people took as gospel you know, that we now know what the quQueen said to Harold Wilson, which of course We don't. Was that your suggestion that you put it in? becausecause obviously you have created these conversations? I'll be honest, it's not and I do find I know people's opinion on those cards are quite split. I I agree with you. I think they can be incredibly useful when you're dealing and actually it's sort of a moral responsibility when you're dealing with real life people in real life events. you just have to constantly remind the audience that too a greater or lesser extent this is art. and we're not shying away from that. I'm not apologising for that. I would have invented certain things and changed certain things so that it works as a piece of drama kind of sometimes I find them really patronizing. like an audience is really sophisticated They do know. I think they know what the contract is when they're watching a piece of real life. You reference the crown and you're right, I think it can be important. Equally an audience does know that Peter Morgan wasn't in that meeting between Howard Wilson and the Queen. they know that and that he is to a greater or lesser extent having to using the best research possible, imagine what those conversations might be U I wasn't I wasn't in the dressing room when England played Slovakia in Euro twenty four. so and an audience knows that Tell us about Joseph Fynes, who played Garis Southgate on stage and here he is reprieving the role. Was he the only do you audition for this? Did you just know that Joseph Fynes was the guy straight We spent a long time and it wouldn't surprise you to know that they wasn't that sophisticated when you first start trying to cast a famous person. you basically go who looks a bit like Garis Southgate who's roughly Garis Southgate's age? And it took a long time myself and the director Rupert Gould onstage. we just kept cycling through people in our heads. and I remember one day I got a text from him with just the words Joseph Fines question marks. And it was like a yeah, it was like a lightning one from the sky. It felt completely. felt completely right and he was just he'd just come back from a long stint in America doing the Handmaid's Tale And we thought we heard it was looking for some theatater And He is a great theatater actor, obviously famously played Shakespeare in a very, very good romantic comedy And I imagine that Joe Fines probably thought he was going to come back and play Hamlet or do a Tennessee Williams or C check officer when we went in restroom saying you want to play Gar Southgate I'm not quite sure what his first reaction was. But he did come in. You would never audition Joe Fynes, but he did come in for a meeting just so that three people can look each other in the eye and see if they all want to go on this journey together very generously red red monologue where he's talking it was in the first episode where he's talking about his trauma from the penalty myth And it was a gosh, it was like a real privilege. It was the first time Hers on my arm sort of went up. There was something about how he connected to Gareth's introversion, awkwardness, smallness. but the thing about Gar Sathate for me is he yes, he's quote unquote like a quiet small sort of character.'s not he's not Henry the Henry the Fth But there is something big about him. There's something huge about his journey about his aspiration, about his ambitions and desires for this team and these boys and how he radically wanted to fix them And that's what I saw that coming through Joe's great theatre gifts when we first met and then of course the huge honor of seeing him translate that to the screen for the BBC. How do you decide which which players to tk or to concentrate on James, because obviously you have eleven players in a team and there's all the backroom stuff And Jodie Whittiger plays Dr. Pippper Grange who introduces some very interesting dynamics. But for telling this story, presumably you have to think There are two or three is that we're going to have to tell this story through. I imagine different football fans in particular will have different views on who I should have focused on and who the real. protagonists were in that team. What' what's useful? about Gary Southgate's tenure as manager is a lot of those players have actually stayed the course through three or four tournaments previously a lot more would drop in and drop out. you'd have to have more a rotating cast of ensemble and that can be quite frustrating for an audience sometimes when you can't invest in people. But if you think of characters like Harry Kane, the captain, that was an obvious one. He was Gart Southate's first captain and he stay with him right to the end. so I guess there there's a little narrative arc, I guess about leadership and finding your voice, finding your style of leadership finding the courage of your conviction and finding your voice of which I think Harry King really does. I think he's one of the great Englishmen of the past ten years. He entirely embodies Gower Southgate's I guess values. this sense of decency and goodness, not necessarily the traditional extroverted alpha male kind of captain who shouts and screams, but he just carry that quiet decency, I think of Garis Sthgate In the second episode, I we meet and then lose quite quickly Diiai. and that was a case for me of Being very lucky actually that someone like Delli has spoken a lot about his own mental health, has been very public about that about his struggles That is again, that feels emblematic, I think of the Garasargate project where someone like Delhi was was able to find a language to talk about the pressures and the fear that anyone would experience in that team. So you look for little little Little characteristics like that, I guess We've talked a lot on the show about masculinity in the last ple of years, a lot of that fueled by adolescents written by the equally prolific Jack Thorne. But I wonder if in a way your play and Gareth Southgate were ahead of the curve here because they were trying to change the perception of masculinity years earlier. I agree. I think that is Gar Souet should take the sole credit for that. He handed me this story, but I agree with you. I think there's something about well, obviously we are living through a moment. peopleeople talk about and I don't love this phrase the crisis of masculinity because I feel like if you keep saying that to young lads, they start to believe that there is something wrong that there is something innately difficult or problematic about being a young bloke. And obviously we know that's not true and it is important to define something so that you can fix it. But what I like about this particular story in comparison with other great narratives when it comes to focusing on young men is that it is the definition of a story of find through vulnerability, through introspection and through sharing those worries and those doubts as these young men were encouraged to do and encouraged to do so way more than they had been previously if at all they managed to find the manag to find a bond with one another famously. in the generation before that the so called golden generation of young English men who played for their team They could not knit together. They've spoken about this. People like Rioa Ferdinand, Frank Lampard, Stephen Gerhard have said In some cases didn't particularly like each other, but they certainly didn't trust each other so they didn't play creatively and with freedom and with expression. Ted Lasso made this adaptation more difficult. Yes to the extent that everyone has that, I think it's a frame of a culture a frame of reference in their mind, which I understand. I tried to no shade on the creators of that show. I tried to aggressively avoid that show. I haven't really watched it beyond a couple of the first episodes just because I think toallyally have So it's obviously a bit different. It's way more comic and romantic and We wanted something I guess a bit a grittier It's hugely pretentious to say stay the nation, but do you do want to look at the nation when you when you do a play or do a TV drama like this? You can't not win you whack England in the title, you got to look at yourselves in the mirror. I I gave up on Ted Lasso after the first ser was, but I think the damned United probably be up there as One of the best I would agree Encapsulating something about football and putting it on the screen. I would agree. and I think that's because what that did so well was it's essentially a love story, isn't it between Brian Clough and I think Peter Taylor, it's about it's about male relationships again It's about the cult of personality, this incredible manager who believed it was the top one out of one in the world. Obviously, there is a big, as you mentioned, big political context to everything that we're that we follow in your in over the four episodes the political situation in the country in Brexit and CVID and so on Towwards the end of the second episode, we see a clip of the Queens Broadcast to the UK where she concludes with the lines Bet days will return, we will meet again. as just as I remember thinking at the time, as most people were struck by the resonance of those lines, the brilliance of those lines. As a screen writer going back to those lines, they were extraordinary, weren't they I really agree. I think famously actually didn't I think the quQeen wanted to take that line out apparently because she thought it was too schmalzy. Yeah, as a writer, I always admire when anyone, a politician, but also a monarch or a football manager. managers to in a particular phrase Catcher an experience that we're all living through. That's what great art should do, isn't it?her whether it's a letter to the nation or play or a TV dramy, what you're trying to do is is create that moment where the listener or the viewer leans forward and nods their heads and go, Oh, yeah, I felt that. I remember that. that connects with me. And on that note, that's why that letter that Gara Southgate wrote, which his title I Nicked, Dear England, when he just wrote the nation after the pandemic before we hosted this tournament. The phrases, the language he uses in there. to try to describe One what we've all just been through, the great loss, the grief, the pain. and why football has this potential to connect us together again as a nation What these big national events do is help us create a collective consciousness in a nation. It makes you feel part of the story And it's how we view time memories that get created and then knit together a narrative in our heads and in the nation And that's why That's why football matters, That's why art matters. And for an England manager, an England football manager, a sporting figure to use language like that U I found it incredibly impressive. and once again, it sort of reassured me, it gave me hope that there was a story here Fally, James, you work on many projects famously you know, you've got a number of different things going at the same time. What is most exciting you about James Graham work, which we are about to see at some stage in the future Oh, u I just about to lock a film. I did a movie adaptation of a play I did called Ink about Rupert Murdoch arriving onto Fleet Street in the sixties. that was directed by Danny Boyle. Iote Screenplay, stars Jack O Connell and Guy Pice and that should have been cinemas I hope end of the year. Well, Ink sounds extraordinary. Jack O'Connell, Guy Pice, Danny Boyle James Graham. I mean, that's all we need to know. I think they' be queing up at the cinema as soon as it comes out. James, thank you so much. Jes Son, thank you. James Graham, the writer of Dear England, all the episodes will be on BBCI playay. Just before Your thoughts Mark Yeah, onlyly occurred to me just just listening to that. that I mentioned the scen in the crown where the just Queen and Howard Wilson The role of Harold Wilson in the Crown was played by Jason Watkins, who in dear England makes a brief appearance as Greg Dyke, the outgoing boss of the FAA. So Jason Watkins is a great actor. He does turn up in all sorts of things h But anyway, he's he's like the continuation there between those two u to TV shows. Anyway, so we're into u We're into football here, but it's sort of football and it's about other things as well, which is why you might like it. I'm not sure. anyway. What did you think of ding this? Well So I've seen the first two episodes, which are two that are currently available and I play at the time of recording this show, which I think is, I think the same as you, you'd seen the first two. is that right? Yeah, f as you just heard It's a football drama but more that takes its title from a letter. a football manager wrote to the nation in the wake of a great period of upheaval and suffering. I love the fact that that phrase assuming someone comes to this completely blank, you know, who could possibly do that? Well, that's thinking of you. Yeah. Thank you very much. That would be me. Although it's interesting that all the things that you cited Um, you know, addescents Damned United, E Ted Lasso I'd say SipPan, I would add to that are things that I know because everything I know about football. I know about through movies and television programs So There were some grand claims in that. James Jrames seeing the story of Gareth Southgate as one of the most remarkable examples of redemption and resilience So he's a player who famously missed a penalty, lived in the shadow of that miss and then came back. to lead England and get them to face up to the fact that again, I didn't know this, that apparently England never ever won on penalties. It just didn't happen and he therefore transforms the team partly by transforming the culture James Graham also talked of this story as a classic sporting underdog story and talks about the challenges of tackling and this was his phrase, the Gareth Southgate Shakespearean art which I thought was a really, really terrific phrase. Now There was a question he said, you know, whether or not because it began life as a play and he said it's up to the viewers and listeners to decide whether or not it plays likeike a play it doesn't episodes that I've seen it doesn't feel like a play on Telly at all. It feels like like a very, very accomplished uh TV series What it does feel like for me is the dram a very, very good dramatization of at least on one level The horrors of the penalty kick thing. I mean, I've never really thought about this. I mean, I the idea that really what it's about is facing up to your greatest fear And the way in which they dramatize the thing about what's involved in taking a penalty. I mean, Jodie Whittaker is the character Pippa Grange who was described as the penalty whisperer who says part that I've seen so far, It's not what happens when they take the kick. It's what happens afterwards And she talks about the fact that if they miss, they literally roll up into a fetal ball And I think Oh no, that's right. I have seen that I have, yes, that is something that's significant Joseph Fines, to my eyes and ears, looks looks and sounds exactly like Gareth Southgate. I mean on one level, that's not surprising because Gareth Southgate is one of the very few people in that area to kind of immediately identifiable uniform you know, the beard, the waistco, you know, you could dw you could almost draw like an outline of him and you'd know who he was in the same ways You know,' a The image of our show is our two pairs of glasses He's got things about him that you just got, okay, I recognize that. but It's also to do with the fact in his performance of the littleittle that I have seen of Gareth Southgate on television gets that Quiet concern Right. I mean, there's lots and lots of shots of South Gate on the sidelines in which his reactions seem to me I was actually thinking at one point because I know that sometimes they're cutting between actual footage I'm assume that's what they're doing. This footage of the matches looks like it actually is footage of the matches. Yes, it is. ye. And you're seeing long shots of Gareth Southgate And I'm and I am going that is Joseph Finees, isn't it? That's not actually Gareth Southgate. So what he so the performance is terrific. However, beyond all of that, the reason I have liked it so far in these first two episodes is exactly what you were talking about which is that it's really about something much bigger than that. On the one hand, it is about the redefinition of what masculinity means and what vulnerability and what being able to bond and being able to sort of face your fears actually means Also, it reminded me that I had known things that I had forgotten that I knew At the end of the second episode, there are flashes, brief flashes of the response to what happens when those penalties get missed And they're quite horrifying. I mean, like really Really Oh yeah, that did happen because there's a lot of talk in the second episode. about addressing the underlying racism involved. I mean, I don't think I'd really clocked the chanting, the really horrible racist chanting, that noise that gets made which and just how just how deeply, profoundly upsetting it is And so I think that even for somebody who knows nothing about football, this reminded me of a few things. Firstly, it reminded me of the COVID era and that you discussed that very eloquently in terms of that You know, we we will meet again But also it did remind me that even as someone who doesn't know anything about football, I did sort of peripherally know that all this was happening And I think that so far, what it's done is engage me in a story that I wasn't really engaged in and reminded me that I was more engaged in it than I thought I was becausecause that thing about the Gareth Southgate Shakespearean arc. the thing about It's about decency. It's about it's a celebration of people being decent. a celebration of people actually being good and I remember, sorry to I will do this and it will offend everybody I will get an exorcis reference in here good. Bill Blatty once said, he said it in writing, but then he said it to me later on. He said A friend of his had once said, you spend so much time thinking about the nature of evil. Why don't you spend some time thinking about the nature of good And Bill said, but I kind of that is what I'm doing, but it is harder to celebrate good And I think that so far of the two episodes that I've seen, this is doing a pretty good job of it Let us know what you think. Correspondence of Kmode. com during that as you mentioned is on iPlayer and on, you, traditional BBC television, but easier to watch an iPayer Thank you very much. So will you watch the rest of it do you think? I will, yeah, I will because I'm invested in it now. And I I'm not just saying that. he does look and sound like Garretth Southcoate, doesn't he? mean And also because As you mentioned, he talks about the Gareth South Shakespearean arc, which given that he's a quiet man. actually quite melancholic, despite the fact that he's asking people to play with smiles on their faces to bring back the joy. He doesn't immediately strike you as a joy filled person. He was a very thoughtful, very quiet, very melancholic person But they manag to capture that. absolutely managed to capture that. And Joseseie Fes did a Wonderful job. I just don't think I can't think of anyone else who had been able to do that No, I think it's a great for I've just had a note from Heather. Dar England, the first two episodes are on iPler. The series will continue this Sunday at nine PM on BBC one, then on iPayer after broadcast Okay, well let's speaking of joy, which is obviously what we try and bring you. here we go in every single podcast, let us grab that joy. Let us discard our melancholia and step. with abandon into our much loved Lagh lift. I have to say Ita Yeah I'm going to sack the script writers because the material this week is slightly It distasteful, I would say All right, go on Anway. Hey Mark, I've been married to the good lady's thermister indors for so long I can tell when she's lying just by looking at her I'm also getting pretty good at spotting when she's standing up too. good Montino, do you have any unusual sleeping habits? Because I sleep completely in the buff. Absolutely fine at home, but it does raise eyebrows on long haul flights I mean, what is a no fly list, by the way? I just got some strange angry then I went to the doctors this week and I've been happ being in a lot of trouble trying hard And the GP said, Mister Mayor, are you familiar with the phrase fecal impaction? And I said certainly I present the UKs biggest film podcast stars Glennlose and Michael Douglas, nineteen eighty seven abandoned its internal logic just to deliver a crowd pleasing revenge spectacle. That must be a Simon Paul joke. You would imagine so.. But I just apologise for actually saying fecal impaction on the show because it feels very distasteful. Anyway, Mark was still to come? We I'll answer that. Okay you. It's Mark's review of Backrooms and also Tuna on the way. The summer, Prime V video takes you back before legally blonde, before law school, and into the world of Elle Woods in high school. Set in nineteen ninety five, this Gemini vegetarian knows exactly who she is until her family moves from Belair to Seattle. Packed with iconic fashion, nineties nostalgia, and a throwback soundtrack, Elle proves one thing Law school was hard. High school was harder. From the world of legally blonde, watch Al, a new original series only on Prime video july first This episode is brought to you by Redfinn You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking Maybe even scrolling homelistings on Redfin saving homes without expecting to get them But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing to help you find and own a home. With agents who close twice as many deals, when you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get started at redfin. com Own the dream. Last week, we had a suggestion about playing the Muppet game, which is where you recast a film that you like or maybe a film you don't like But you keep one character in the movie and everyone else is turned into a muppet. Yes. And we came up with various suggestions We have so many so many contributions Uh WA, which is not a name, obviously, but that's what it's signed Gonzo as Pazuzoo mark So you're wrong, Uncle Deadley is Pazzuzu. He's not playing Puazzu. He is Pazzuzu. Okay The answer is to be Lord of the Rings, ' says Rob, the lone goldsmith Uh inssane a little borderline sacrilegious probably, but think about it for more than two seconds and it swims into focus, and all singing all dancing cast of muppetry, dwarves, elves and so on. And wasn't there the threat of actually doing a puppet version of the story at one point? In any case, the Jackson tririlogy is certainly untouchable U and it's unlikely the story will be revisited cinematically anytime soon, although We heard from Leo Woodall last week. He's off down under to do some of this Unless I would argue it's Kermit on his way to Mordor Banjo and all, Ian McKellen obviously retains his original role Um bigger in boat regarding the muppet game, Jaws with Kermit as Chief Brody Gonzo is Matt Hooper. Oscar The grouch as quint and featuring Animal as the shark And I'm retaining Peter Benchley as the reporter because that respect. It's against Donom Parry. U And Chris from Bristol, in reference to the discussion of the Game of Muppets in in film in last week's show there was a reference to Muppets in Die Hard, delighted to say that a show Muppets's Die Hard exists and was played at the wardrobe Theatre in Bristol Back in twenty fourteen, I remember heading upstairs to the White Bear pub into the wardrobe theater, which was unsurprisingly very small and watching two hours of one of the best shows I have ever seen. fromrom memory, Kermit was the director, Miss Piggy was Holly McLane, and Gonzo was Ellis. They used a generic muppet for John McLan and the real life actor was Al and Alan Rickman lookook alike who I have to say stole the show Amazing writing, creative, low budget props and actors who clearly had an amazing time. They brought it back for a couple of runs in larger venues a few years later. sadly because of copyright, it had to be renamed MDH Puppet Do a Movie which isn't really as good as itetss die hard, but anyway, still a great show. The same group did a few more mash up shows over the years, some of which equally amazing H One called Goldilocks Stock and Three Smoking Bears which is great. Edipuss in boots I think they're still going and put on a show over Christmas and new Yes so well worth checking if listeners live in Bristol Keep up the great work, enjoying relaxing to the podcast and painting after a long day at work. Chris Bristol, who has shared a link to the Muppets Die Hard show. in the show. Yeah, we'll put it in the show notes. So if you want more on the Muppets Die Hard and those shows, then look at our show notes and follow it from their correspondents of Konomo. com tell us something that's new and Trific. So backrooms, which is the very promising and deeply unsettling feature debut from Kane Parsons, a young YouTuber Either twenty or twenty one, he is quote, A twenty four's youngest feature director I mean, scary. He created the backrooms web series, which was this kind of creepy, you know, you know what this thing creepy paster is No, so it's like viral horror on it's like a popular term for for viral horror memes, legends, that sort of thing. So In the web series. There's a research institute that is exploring these anomalous backrooms that were first discovered in the nineteen eighties, into which people keep getting dragged The feature which is the film we're talkking about now is written by Will Sudk, follows two central characters. The first is Chuita Eafour's Clark. who runs a furniture store with a weird sort of piratical theme We see him doing local TV adverts dressed as a pirate saying Aha, you know, all the furniture here is a steel and all that sort of stuff. His life is in chaos And his relationship has fallen apart. He gets angry with his therapist Mary, played by Renarda Reinesfor, who's the person from Worst person in the world a sentimental Valey brilliant actor So the store, the furnitish store is in some form of decline. At night, the electrics play up, the lights flash, there are power outages. Weirdder still onn the circuit breaker, you on the fuse board There is a switch that doesn't seem to be attached to anything at all. In one evening After hearing noises on the other side of a wall down in the basement where the circuit breaker is Clark discovers a door, or rather a knot door, a wall through which you can walk whichich leads him into a whole other building and a whole maze of backrooms. Here ailer here's clip from the trailer Whd you fil me Yes. Fllow my late That's what I'm trying to figure out. I've been there every night since I found the place and I still barely scratch the surface. I just take a slow So At the beginning Those endless rooms look a little bit like the set from severance. You know, the underground bunker it's just faceless The more you see them, the more they start to look like a kind of bad imitation, mirror imitation of the real world. There are stairs that don't go anywhere. There are There were rooms with pols that aren't quite pools that no one could swim in them It's and at one point they describe it as it's it's like as if someone who had never seen a dog was trying to describe a dog, and more importantly, the room seemed to go on forever And then when Clark goes missing Mary the therapist goes looking for him and finds herself in this ever expanding world closer to her patient than she could ever imagine So Canaine Parsons had said in an interview that I had read before the feature would be in direct continuity with the web series, meaning if you knew the web series U, you know, there's loads of easaster eggs for the web series, but the feature wouldn't contradict the web series Crucially, however, if you don't, and I didn't when I saw this, I've seen stuff now, but I didn't know about it beforehand. Um The film works completely as a standalone venture. and the reason that it does is because the narrative discovers the rooms from the point of view of Clark of Chuiteliaf's character, who knows nothing about what hes stumbled into and who is completely baffled as indeed is Mary. So both the leads act all the way through like they have never seen any of this before, which is the experience that I had as a viewer. although the screening that I saw, I was in a room with loads of people who obviously knew the knew the series beforehand. Apparently on the series, they use three D software. they use Blender and Adobe After Effects to create the world For the film, it has been reported that they built over thirty thousand square feet of backrooms and the set was so long and so big that it was possible to actually get lost in it Um I don't know what the truth of that is. What I can tell you is that as a viewer, you do absolutely get lost in this world, which has this kind of David Lynchy nightmarish logic, this is a shadow world. It's the kind of place that you encounter. If you ever have the We all have weird dreams. I quite regularly have dreams about being in a version of my house which isn't quite my house and I can't I'm in the loft and I can't get out your house and your loft that you can't get out of. And rooms that are upside rooms that are like upside down and staircases that just go down, but you're not you can't see where they go to apppplud it to the two lead actors for their utterly convincing WTF reactions to what's going on in the discovery of this alternate world Claud it's two to Kan Parsons for maintaining this really genuine air of mystery and sort of unfolding weirdness because the film itself leaves the audience with more questions than answers And it also crucially leaves you eager to earn more. Now it was interesting that I saw There's been some stuff recently that Marip Plass is involved in this online went to social media to address reports that K Parsons hadn't really directed the film because the film's got many executive producers, which include Oz Perkins James Won, surely quite establish talents And so some people said, well, obviously this twenty year old didn't direct this I have to say, I saw an interview with that twenty year old and they seemed to know exactly what they were talking about. I mean, they seem to know this world inside out and they seem to know what they were doing. So I have no insider information in this at all, but despite the extraordinary youth, of the creator of this world They seem to know absolutely what they were doing. I mean, there are moments of proper nightmarish horror moments of kind of cracked consumerist satire. but the whole thing has a really engulfing air of intrigue and dawning horror. It's not an expensive movie, but it does create an absolutely complete O world, anti world, upside down, whatever it is And I was really, really gripped by it and I knew nothing beforehand and I absolutely shared the leads Eperienceself. going on. and I found it genuinely engrossing and often very creepy The movie is Backrooms. Let us know what you think, correspondence at karbanamayer d. comot Now last week on the show, a Leo Woodall was our guest and we were ambling through some thoughts about Tuna which is the film which he stars with Dustin Hoffman. So the interview went out last week. So if you haven't heard that, it is worth going back to just so you get a general feel where Leo Woodall and Dustin Hoffword which are like two of the central characters. in this movie how how they link up But we couldn't review it last week because it's only out this week Yes, With the conversation with Leo Woodall in mind, Mark, take us through tune As you said, he was the guest last week. I think that Leo would all find it quite hard to describe the film Let's see if I can do any better. Okaykay. Okay, go ahead. yes Low key crime thriller from Canadian co writer and director, Daniel Roe who made the Oscar winning Doc Navalny, which you talked about in the interview So Leo Whooddle is the tuner of the title. And just to be clear, if you're listening to this T U N E R not T UNA, although there is a gag about that A young man named Niki who had to give up a promising career as a pianist due to the fact that he suffered from hyperacusis which is hypersensitivity to sound. And this was not a something that I knew about beforehand, but the film does a pretty good job of explaining. what it means, It means that, you know, he's got these He has to wear these earpieces all the time in order to blank out the sound because effectively the world, the world is too loud for him. And as a result of it, he can't He can't play the piano anymore because the piano would be too loud So the condition has stopped him leading a normal life in inverted commas unless he wears ear protectors all the time, But it has made him an extremely good piano tuner And as it happens deaf safe Cacker because he can hear The tumblers in and certainly an old fashioned safe He can hear them falling. This trick is very useful, particularly for Nickky's mentor. and I mean, Dustin Hoffman' iss effectively' a father figure, isn't he? His memory is failing. He forgets the combination to his safe. Nicki can open it. He can listen to the clicks. This also attracts the attention of Yuri, who is the leader of a gang of thieves who sees Nikki's safe cracking in action and goes We need that guy And at first, Nickki isn't interested But when Dustin Hoffman's character, Harry falls ill He needs money And so this side hustle cracking safes proves useful. The film also stars Hvernor Rose Lu, who we mentioned before who is in power ballad as Ruthie who is herself a talented pianist looking for a place as an assistant to a celebrated composer, played by Jan Renault with whom Harry once seem to h upwayere' a clip See you again . I I'm Ruthy. Hello Ruthy. I'm Harry, Horrowitz. You can call me Harry, J stillll call me late for dinner, but I'm pump I steal that l from my grandmother? No, I never stole anything in my life. This is Nicki. He is my tuning apprentice. He's more like my nephew, though we're not related. And I'll tell you one thing. He is very eligible, but he has a hearing condition, as you can see from his plugs, which are not hearing aids, although that's a common mistake. He's not being rude, It's doctor's orders and did I mention He is very eligible. Harry, please stop. So last week, you remember we did one frame back and we did films about people with special sets of skills. and somebody came up with the Harvey Cartel film Fingers So Tuna actually does have I hadn't seen Tuna at that point. Tuna does have a thematic connection with Fingers. Fingers is a nineteen seventy eight James Towback film about a young pianist who is torn between music and crime and family ties And also with the Jacques Audiar film, The Beat that My Heart skipped, which isch effectively a French language remake of fingers The film does, tuner, does have a very seventies feel about it in that basically it's a character drama that happens to be playing out within the framework of a crime thriller The plot is very twisty. I mean, overly so, in my opinion, particularly in the third act in which the coincidences come very, very thick and fast But it's also functional because the crime narrative is really a device for allowing us to experience the world as rather than being seen as heard by its central character, who has overensitized hearing. And therefore, it's putting you in his position and saying this is what this world seems like to him. I think in the interview, Leo Woodall said, you know, the world it's just too loud and it can seem like there's just too much of it. And then you crank that up with this crime thriller narrative in which there genuinely is too much of everything. It was interesting that Leo Woodel did find it difficult to talk about the movie, because there is none of that hesitancy in his performance. In his performance, he completely seems to embody the character. Pase Absolutely convincing as a piano tuner and a safe cracker. I mean I wasn't completely convinced by him as a piano player that's okay because that's a lesser part of the plot And Havanah Roseleud Certainly, I was watching it thinking, wow, you really are good No, yes, she really genuinely seems to be to be doing that, doesn't she? It was I think the fact is that The reason the reason that it works is that in that seventies way, It's really a character drama that's just posing as a crime thriller. It's funny that clip we played was pretty incidental. It was just dustiningoff and saying, Ohh yeah this is my. goodood my nephew, blah blah, blah blah, And what's interesting is that you just you buy into the characters. I'm sure that Dustin Hoffman absolutely loves doing that sort of stuff. it also helps that you have sound designer Johnny Burnne, you talked about this before. Johnny Byurn's credits include Zone of interest. and he's worked with your boss, Lanthemos. He's a genius. and light Darius Mardr's sound of metetal, which had a different sound designer, but again was very much about the the way in which the world is evoked through the sound design This creates an audio world that you live in because the way the sound design works is that it takes you with inside the head of the central character. We really do hear the world through Niicki's ears. I do think the third act descends somewhat into contrivance and melodrama But there is enough about the characters that rings true that means that even when you get the overpowering clanking gears of the plot, I't know whether you agree with me about this, but I think in the third act There is altogether too much plot What it doesn't ever do is overwhelm the grace notes. of the performances because in the end what you're really interested in is the characters and the characters are established well enough and their world is established well enough you you're interested in them less so than the crime mechanics of the plot, which literally seem to be there to just drive the thing along. What did you feel? I was having a we of a time really. And I think it was just, I mean, of course what you say you know, is correct, but I was going with it because I was enjoying Leo Woodol's performances as you say, he's the master in this film even though he did sound a little bit more hesitant when we werere doing the interview But it was there was so much to admire in it. and I was just along for the ride. So you know, take I take the points you're making. Also it's a very, very small tririumph of the film U There are three Israeli bad guys led by Leor Raz, who's the co founder, the co creator of the Fouder TV show which was very successful. But they had three Israeli bad guys in a movie now without making it feel inappropriate, without making it feels there any And they're there for a reason. It's all Yes, it's all part of the plot. you know, it's there. it's not so I just thought, okay, well done, no one is complaining about this They're there for a reason. And Leoz is very good. so I thought it was a small. So I was admiring a lot. And I also Without giving anything away, I enjoyed the ending and the final line is very good, well delivered nicely. The final line the final line is a good punchline to a shaggy dog story It is. and it's almost I wonder if they knew that when I wonder if it was written like that you know, wonder if there was more stuff after that And then someone said, H, no, let's leave it there. That's just cutting that because it is a good final line. Yeah If you see tuna, let us know what you think. Correspondence at Kodemo d. com That is it for this week. This has been a Sony music, Entertainment production. This week's team Jen Eric Josh and Scarlet producer was Heather. Redactor wasn't in. He's gone to France