Upcoming Legal Deadlines and Future Outlook

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A couple of weeks after our last episode aired I found myself back in Phoenix, Arizona, at the Maricopa County Superior courourthouse Laura Owens was due back in court on may twentieth. for another hearing about the status of her criminal case 've been to this courthouse once before for Laura's pret tririal hearing last August but this time felt different This podcast was out and millions of people were following along As I made my way into the courthouse, I ran into a familiar face layton's attorney Greg Woodnick He made time in his schedule to come to this hearing in person just in case something important happened Victims are welcome in court and Clon was unavailable to go and I was available. so I went to put my eyes on the situation Woodnick represented both Clayton Eckard and another victim in Laura's criminal case, Greg Gillespie We were standing together in the hallway. waiting for the hearing to get started when the elevator doors opened walked Laura Owens and her mother, Jan Black. Jan and Laura came out of the elevator and walked past me. When Jan saw us She doubled back walked closer and then stopped right in front of Woodnick Jan said something to the extent of do I need to talk to you I kind of looked at her quzically because I wasn't there to talk to her Candidly had caught me off guard that she'd walk like right into my kind of zone I was standing right there watching this awkward interaction play out Wondering if Jan was going to say something to me next but she kept her focus on Woodnick. And then I didn't even say anything. And then I think she immediately said, Why are you staring at me It was kind of a little dumbfound I was not staring at her. I was just in the courthouse waiting to go into the courtroom with other people. It was a little confrontational and a little bit uncomfortable I haven't heard from Laura since the last episode of the podcast aired later Wnick told me that this was his first time interacting with Jan in person I think the only time I've ever seen her in three dimension was June of twenty twenty fourth trial with Judge Mada We watched as Laura and her mom walked into the courtroom. A few minutes later, we took our seats The judge had a couple other cases to get through first two defendants before Laura were brought out in striped prison jumpsuits It was a vivid reminder of what we're dealing with here This is a criminal case And Laura's hearing was about to begin. This is CR twenty twenty five zero zero seven nine zero five State versus Laura Owens time set for a complex case management conference I'm Stepanie Young And this is Love Trap. There's no way. The day after our last episode went live My phone started blowing up. Maricopa County atttorney Rachel Mitchell, the one who charged Laura criminally had made an appearance on a local Phoenix radio station They asked her about our podcast This is like a big podcast. A lot of people are talking about this. It's a Sottsdale woman. It's the celebrity aspect the pregnancy case. Do she try and do this again Well, there have been different allegations made against her. Some of them, and I have to be careful because you know, obviously this is ongoing, but some of them occurred in a different state. and I think A lot of people are wanting it all wrapped up here. and obviously I only have jurisdiction over what happened in Maricopa County. But yeah, there are some allegations that other things happened as well. That this is serial behavior on her part. This is one of the first times anyone has heard Rachel Mitchell comment on Laura's case outside of a press conference. The radio host took the opportunity to ask Rachel Mitchell a big question the same one we wondered at the end of our podcast Laura's first plea deal just expired What happens next So she reportedly didn't respond to a plea deal by a recent deadline. Is that right I belieieve that's correct If you watch the video of the interview There's a telling moment right here when you can see Attorney Mitchell look off camera checking with someone else in the room Yeah Can you say what she was offered I don't think that would be appropriate for me to discuss the plea offer. Do you think the case will go to trial Yeah, that's the next step Trial was the next step Dozens of people sent me this video because it looked like we finally had our answer the answer we'd been chasing for weeks Atorney Mitchell believed Laura's case was going to trial. without a plea. I wish it turned out to be that simple But with Laura Owens. It never is A lot has happened over the last month and a half So let me catch you up After attttorney Mitchell made that radio appearance, the station posted a digital article with the headlinine. Baura Owens's Bachelor fraud case going to trial the news spread like wildfire. I saw screenshots on Reddit, social media, and in my DMs Naturally, my first call was to Clayton Eckard to see how he was feeling about the news I thought at first that that was a good thing because I figured if she missed a deadline, she'd be penalized for it My initial thought was good. L she's now about to get hit with something worse Before I could even hang up with Clayton brand new headline replaced the last one This latest headline suggested that plea negotiations werere still on the table Basically, they backtrack It's really frustrating At some point you have to look at the individual and realize like this is just a tactic She doesn't need any more time. Any time extension is just her playing a game. What's the point of a deadline if it's not actually enforced It's just agitating Honestly No one knew what the hell was going on Was there a new plea being offered? Was she taking that plea We were in the dark. And it would stay that way until may twentieth at Laura's compleomplex case management hearing This is the hearing that brought me back to Arizona. beforefore it got started I watched Woodnick and Jan have that awkward encounter in the hallway This is CR twenty twenty five zero zero seven nine zero five State versus Laura Owens, timeim set for a complex case management conference. Can I get appearances, please? Earon Pettacom for Ed Lighter for the State Victims cououncil is also present as is a victim addvocate. All right, thank you compleomplex case management hearing is kind of a routine check in to make sure the case is progressing appropriately G morning, judge Christian leaders on behal of La Owens, who is present out of custody at the in the podium Laura was being represented by Christian looters It's her third attorney on this case The judge asked both sides if there was anything they wanted to discuss, and the state jumped in. This is where we finally got an answer about if the plea deal had been extended I did have a discussion with defense counsel about extending plea deadline considering that he is relatively new to the case and there have been some relatively minor issues transmitting discovery. The current expiration date is june twenty sixth. The state extended the deadline The plea deal now expires Friday, june twenty sixth And the next time Laura will be in front of the judge, will be Monday, june twenty ninth Laura's new attorney Christian Loters said they'd be ready for that date. We will have everything, I think done and decided one way or another about the plead prior to the twenty sixth. So I'll have a conversation with mister Line and we'll straighten this up. All right, if there's any kind of problem And there's no flexibility. Let me know I'll work out something for you Well do. Thank you, Judge. Okay so Miss Owenss need to be back in my courtroom, june twenty ninth at eight forty five If Laura doesn't take the pleadial Her case is scheduled for trial The dates are already set Then after that, you have that final trial management conference july twenty second at eight hundred forty five, then trial assignment july twenty ninth, which is at nine o'clock That's before the trial assignment judge Fth floor of this building courtroom F five B. If you fail to appear, warrs can issue forrest if you don't up for trial could occur in absence Stay touch your lawyer, see you on the twentyight The hearing was over in about four minutes The second it wrapped Laura and her mother made a swift exit And if I'm being honest I was still trying to process exactly what had just happened So I caught up with Woodnick after the hearing Laur has an excellent lawyer quite confident that they're up to something trying to work on a resolution that ends this. This is Tony Eo from the Re Report with Tonyo and Uncle Murder. You ever notice how everything keeps going up, rent's going up, streaming services are going up, Even your favorite burrito spot suddenly think Ssa should cost extra. But with Boost Mobile, you and your phone bill don't have to play the willill' go up soon game because Boost Mobile has an unlimited talk, text and data plan at a price that'll never go up It's the same price you'll pay for life, meaning you're set to never worry about your bill increasing again for as long as you're on the plane. While the world keeps finding new ways to nickel and dime you, Boost Moul gives you unlimited wireless at one set price for life. Imagine something in your budget actually staying the same. You'll pay the same for unlimited wireless when you're posting mirror selfies in your twenties And when you're posting mirr and selfies in retirement, S things never change. 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Now it's time to hear them live Round up your friends to catch Thomas Rhett on the soundtrack to Life Tour Get your tickets now at live nation. com Protect yourour pet with insurance from Petsvest. Plans start from less than a dollar a day. Visit petsbest. comot Pet In insur productds offered and administered by Petsest Insurervices LLC or underwritten by Aican Pet inssurance Comany or independence American insurance Company. For terms and condions, visit wW d. petspest dot com backslash P policy Product are underwritten by American Pet insurance Comany, indndependents American insurance company or MS Transverersse insurance comppany and administered by Pets Best Insur Services LLC. one dollar day premium based on twenty twenty four average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans petss age zero to ten One of my biggest takeaways from Laura's hearing on may twentieth was that her new attorney seems to have this under control He came in with a calm command of the case And it looks like Laura iss listening to him. Like we said earlier, this is her third attorney in this matter. She started with private counsel. but then was assigned a public defender A Laura was offered a plea deal. She replaced the public defender with a new private attorney. Christian looters No one knows how she's affording him considering that she and her parents have recently declared bankruptcy We'll get to that later But according to Woodnick Laura has an excellent lawyer Christian Luters is a good lawyer by all accounts I think he was doing his job and his job is to both prepare trial and also try to find a resolution that allows Laura to move on her ro I'm assuming there's active discussions to resolve the case Lauraside has been very tight lipped about their legal strategy. In may twenty twenty six I reached out to Laura's criminal defense attorney Christian Luters I requested a statement on the status of her case whether she plans to accept the state's plea deal. I gave him a week to respond I never heard back But there is one person who did get a response from him invvestigative journalist Kristen Thorne A few months ago She was working on a piece for us Wekly about Clayton and Laura when she reached out to Mr. Looters. At the time He just started on Laura's case. So I called Kristen to get the details I actually ended up delaying my story by two weeks because he said, I really need more time. I just came on. and I respect that I want to give him an opportunity to respond and from a legal perspective, that's important as well. So he asked, how much time can you give me? And I was willing to wait two weeks. And so then I gave him a deadline and he met the deadline and we were able to get it in the story Kristen told me she asked Mr. Looters, if Laura planned to take the plea deal Of course he couldn't share that information But Kristen's the only journalist I know of who's received any insight into Laura's legal strategy So I asked her to walk us through what he said So this is what he responded, and it is quite lengthy. So I'm going to sum it up just a little bit The short answer, he says, all options are on the table As a criminal defense attorney, my job is to prepare each case for three possible outcomes Dmissal case resolution by agreement, meaning plea or trial. and he says I'm preparing for all of these simultaneously He says we're starting by reviewing all available evidence and the case record for anything. Now this is where it starts to get interesting He says they're looking for anything that may allow us to dismiss one or more of the charges such as, he says, major gaps in the investigation, insufficient evidence, procedural errors, or violations of constitutional rights to translate He's referring to technicalities that can sometimes blow up criminal cases. Like not reading someone's miranda rights or seizing evidence without a search warrant He said complete dismissal is rare, meaning he knows she's not going to be able to dismiss all these charges, but you know, they are going to look at as much as they can And he says, at the same time, I'm preparing for trial If the case isn't resolved by dismissal or agreement, then a jury trial is What will happen With that in mind, I'm reviewing all of this Her attorney's response measured He sounds like he's weighing all the options and preparing for any outcome. And then he said this which I think is an interesting peek behind the curtain A lot of people don't know this, but there is a lot of cooperation between defense attorneys and prosecutors. And really, that's for judicial efficiency, right? We don't want to bog down the court system If you remember from our last episode Only two percent of cases go to trial in Maricopa County. Trials are expensive And Mr. Looters is correct in saying that behind the scenes Prosecutors work closely with defense attorneys to strike a plea deal He says, the prosecutor and I can't negotiate a plea agreement effectively until we're both in relative and you put relative in brackets, agreement as to what the trial will look like and what the likely result will be So they're both going to have to kind of do their research and then they're going to come back together. Then he says this, which is also very, I guess juicy in my mind We're not yet at the point in this case where we are ready to seriously consider a plea agreement But we're working diligently and that time could come in the next several weeks Keep in mind, it's been a few months since Mr. Luter sent this statement to Kristen The the impression I got after being in the room for the may twentieth status hearing is that Laura's attorney is now considering a plea deal whether Laura will take her attorney's advice is another question I asked Greg Woodnick how he would approach this case if he were representing Laura If I were representing someone like Laura who is facing fourteen felony charges with multiple victims I'd be trying to find a way to mitigate the damages. And what that means is coming up with data to present to countounty attorney to the sentencing judge that somehow assures both of them that whatever happened leading up to these charges and whatever resolution is going to be reached short of a trial going happen again As you can probably guess, my next question was simple How exactly do you track down that kind of data The way I would do it is I would bring her to a respected forensic psychologist mayaybe a doctor who's got some expertise in whatever she is saying, her personal challenges are to do a neurop psychological assessment There may be some specialized psychometric testing that is done in light of what she wrote in the media article that she recently found out. she's autistic. I don't know if it's true or not We'll find out not maybe we won't find out I don't know acccording to Woodnick The information provided during these evaluations is typically self reported. Elephant in the room is I think anyone who's listened to your podcast and knows this saga should be incredulous of any data that's presented by laord She has a pretty good history uring and augmenting information that comes to and is sent to providers and presenting it as if it's medical gospel That said Assuming a well informed doctor assessed her and was able to get to the bottom of some of the cause here I think it's something we should all embrace Because at the end of the day, a jail consequence is, I think what a lot of people are hoping for She's not going to be in jail forever. She may be in jail for a very short time if at all Really what we should be concerned about is making sure this doesn't happen again And if a doctor can be involved in a process to make sure that other people aren't harmed by Laura again then I think that's something we shall lean into But there's one other issue that might be causing a hold up in this scenario The problem with that analysis is it presupposes that someone's willing to acknowledge what they did was wrong And so I don't know how that's gonna to play out here because I'm sure Laura's gonna do that, which would be her opportunity to explain herself in a trial In theory La doesn't have to explain anything to anybody The burden of proof is squarely on the state to show beyond a reasonable doubt Laura committed the fourteen listed felonies And Laura can sit there quietly and never explain herself. And that's totally allowable and that's how the law works. So we may never get an explanation or she can choose to testify and try to explain her behaviors We wouldn't know until trial what she chose to do The number one question I've been getting since the podcast ended And one I'm sure I'll keep getting is Why do all of Laura's legal proceedings keep getting delayed I asked Witnick specifically about her criminal case And his answer surprised me. I think people are frustrated with the delay I will tell you, there's nothing here that's out of the ordinary In this case, there were two indictments. that got strung out a little bit because of the seven additional charges involving Greg Gillespie, right? That kind of I extended things out a little bit, but there's no significant delays here. No significant delays here This drawn out back and forth about additional indictments, extended plea deadlines, and new attorneys being brought on, apppparently That's typical of criminal proceedings That said People are worried there's going to be other delays if there's no plate For example, on the eve of trial, medical issues or personal issues trying to delay the trial Those are what I refer to in life and practice as tomorrow problems. We won't know those problems exist until they exist And as we wait to find out if this case will even go to trial Clayton is becoming frustrated Understandably so I honestly don't have trust I wish I did in the court system But I am hesitant to believe that my best interest will be served and that of the victims. I mean, I felt like this case should have been over years ago And it's not to say that we're not going give a favorable outcome. It's not to say that Americaounty Attorneysice isn't doing their job But I'm not willing to Trust fully A lot of victims feel this way. Because remember, this criminal case is the state of Arizona versus Laura Owens The state prosecutors don't work for Clayton or any of the victims in their cases For them to settle a case with a plea agreement is more like a math equation and less like a battle for justice Because he's listed as a victim Clayton gets advance notice about what the prosecutors plan to do with the case. a few months ago He learned the terms of the state's first plea offer. As we heard in a previous episode He wasn't happy with it Fortunately The specifics of that plea offer still are not public Following the hearing on may twentieth Clayton texted me to say he planned to write a letter to Ed Leiter, the lead prosecutor for the state of Arizona Clayton wants him to reconsider what's being offered in the plea deal I've gotten very nervous with the silence as we are waiting trial, which is approaching, but there's just not really anything occurring. and talking with the other victims I realizeed that I don't want this to just cool off and her potentially get a reduction in the police. so Let me write this letter. I really want the prosecutor to understand that I'm still watching and I'm still very involved and reallyally can't afford for this to be anything less than what it already is and what was offered to me is not enough. And so please reconsider becausecause Laura's antics will not stop until she is separated from her environment, right? She needs to be taken out of her environment, which means jail are present. Unlike most other victims, Clayton has a platform and a dedicated following. He can use that to apply pressure on the case It's a privilege I decided to post the letter on my page just to ensure that everyone knows I wrote the letter including the Maricota County attttorney's office that they would see it and go, okay You know Not that they would do this, but I had the thought. What if they say, oh, we never saw the email And I was like, I'm not willing to have that be the answer. So Let's just post it online everywhere so that everyone sees it so that way that that can't be an excuse asked Clayton to read the letter Here's what he wrote Mr. Leighter and Victims Services I'd like to start by thanking Rachel Mitchell and everyone at MCAO for their work on this case. That's one of many of Laura Owen's victims that has been very validating to have the county take her crimes seriously That said, I remain significantly concerned about Laura Owens and the possibility of her not receiving any jail time My attorney, Greay Woodnick has told me that nonviolent offenders like Laura often do not receive prison time However, Laura is no ordinary offender and her actions, though not physically violent, have been acts of violence I know she will not stop unless she faces real accountability can already predict that she is busy having a psychologist who she will give more false information to, further attempt to minimize her culpability to mitigate her exposure, and further portray herself as the quote unquote real victim Since Laura had fourteen felony charges brought against her, she has shown no signs of remorse or accountability I fear she is incapable of ever acknowledging the damage she's caused, and even if she did take a plea does not include incarceration, she will claim she was forced into it. She knows how to game the system and will twist everything to support her fake victim narrative She is relant last I would appreciate a plea that stops her from being on the internet like they do with sex offenders to stop her from terrorizing us She is even posting articles on medium. com proclaiming her innocence. Most alarming, she's back on dating apps. As your investigative team found, Laura falsely claimed she had not been intimate with anyone since March of twenty twenty two When in reality, she had sex the same week she claimed to have had intercourse with me I've never had sex with her or assaulted her, like she alleged She is dangerous and will continue to use the internet to perpetuate her crimes Without incarceration and accountability, there will be more than Mike, Matt, Greig, and I And the others who have not publicly stepped forward There's a clear pattern of abuse that will not stop unless Laura is taken out of her environment place somewhere where she could no longer hurt her current victims and find new ones. While Laura is not a quote unquote, violent offender in the traditional sense I feel strongly that we should not overlook the extreme mental, emotional, and financial damage she has caused. Even after Judge Mata and the Court of Appeals ordered her to pay fees for what they found to be meritless and fraudulent, She has paid nothing. and then lied again in bankruptcy court Please talk to the DOJ attorney, Jennifer about this. For me, she publicly carried out a defamation scheme against me, hurting my reputation and taking away my ability to speak to youth about mental health awareness, which is my passion and one of the few things that makes me feel alive False accusation and sexual assault claims she launched against me ripped away the ability for me to make an impact on children which caused me to find myself in a depression that persisted for many months on end She went to the media using the cover of anonymity to try and destroy me email job opportunities to allege I was abusive and tried to convince tens of thousands of bachelor fans that I was a deadbeat father to her fake twins It's taken me years to recover from this and will continue to take years to fully address the emotional trauma I'm not embarrassed to share that I had suicidal ideation from this entire experience, and if it were up to Laura. I truly think she would have me dead This woman is incredibly smart, manipulative, and a danger to society She lacks the ability to feel bad for anyone other than herself And if you happen to quote unquote, hurt her ego, she'll spend a lifetime trying to destroy everything you've built as seen with Michael Marcini and her claims against Gre Gillespie I am respectfully requesting you reconsider the current plea deal and ensure Laura faces a penalty. or there is a jail consequence It is the only way to stop her for if you do not promise you will see the day where new victims of laura owens arise. and also potentially the day where you will see one of the victims finally fall A few days after Clayton sent that heartfelt letter to the prosecutor's office, He received an unexpected phone call. They told me they got my email And I realized that I didn't fully understand the plea deal. This is Tony Eo from The Re Report with Tonyo and Uncle Murder. You ever notice how everything keeps going up, rent's going up, streaming services are going up, Even your favorite burrito spot suddenly thinks Ssa should cost extra. But with Boost Mobile, you and your phone bill don't have to play the Will' go up soon game because Boost Mobile has an unlimited talk, text and data plan at a price that'll never go up It's the same price you'll pay for life, meaning you're set to never worry about your bill increasing again for as long as you're on the plane. While the world keeps finding new ways to nickel and dime you, Booce Movul gives you unlimited wireless at one set price for life. Imagine something in your budget actually staying the same. You'll pay the same for unlimited wireless when you're posting mirror selfies in your twenties And when you're posting minir and selfies in retirement, S things never change. Switch now for unlimited wireless at a price that'll never go up only at Boost mobile. After thirty gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay twenty five dollars a month as long as they remain active on a Boost unlimited plan Hero doesn't love warm carby comfort, satisfying sandwiches, loaded bagels, rich mac and cheese. Crapeworthy and smart, Herobread's loavs bagels and noodles have just zero to five grams snack carbs, zero grams of sugar and up to nineteen grams of protein and thirty two grams of fiber per serving. Herobrered bakes with heart healthy olive oil and delivers the soft fluffy, flavorful experience you love. Shop now on herero. Co. Use code IiHart for ten percent off. That's herero. COerving metal low calorie food, some products contain allulO.ee nutrition info on herero.ot co for sodium and sugar content. Hey everybody, I'm Bobby Bones. Today we're talking about Thomas Red and the soundtrack to Life Tour For over a decade, Thomas Rett has delivered more than twenty number one hits and sold out tours. Inspired by his family and his Nashville roots, he's created songs that have become the soundtrack to our lives From Dia Happy Man to Life Changes. You've heard his songs playing at life' special moments. Now it's time to hear them live. Round up your friends to catch Thomas Rhett on the soundtrack to Life Tour Get your tickets now at liive nation. com Your pet is your bestie? Your therapist, your perfect match. It's easy to love them. It's easy to protect them too. with pet insurance coverage from Pets' Best. because it's all fun in games until they chew on something they shouldn't. And you get a vet bill to match. With perfect timing, Pets' Best helps protect your furry friend and your budget from this imperfect world Get up to ninety percent cash back on eligible vet bills from less than a dollar a day. PEets Best has plans to cover accidents, injuries, and more. From puppies and kittens to seniors. 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For terms and conditions, visit wWW dot petsbest dot com backlash policy Products arewritten by American Pet inssurance Comany, Independents American insurance compomany or MSransverse insurance compomany, and administered by Pets Best Insuranceervices LLC. one dollar day premium based on twenty four average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans pets age zero to ten Clayton's letter caught the attention of the Maricopa County attttorne's offffice almost immediately They called Clayton and asked him for an in person meeting It was really nice because they sat down with me, told me they got my email and they wanted to make sure that I was comfortable an understanding as well of what all has been currently offered. because I realized that I didn't fully understand the plea deal The state prosecutors explained the Clayton the offer on the table to Laura Again, this offer is not public So we can't speculate because we don't know what it is But Clayton has alluded that the pa offer currently does not include prison time Clayton wants Laura to see time behind bars Here's the part he didn't understand. Prison and jail are different things Prison has vocational programs counseling programs, social dynamic. jail, at least in Arizona is for shorter term sentences Even if Laura doesn't receive a prison sentence probroation can include jail time. Here's Budnik again to help explain In theory, you can have jail as part of probation. That's different than prison where they send you away and you likely may even be leaving Mericoa County and going to some prison out in the Boondocks If Laura decides to accept a plea deal, This would mean she's pleading guilty to at least some of the charges. and from there, she would be sentenced based on her guilty plea The next step is then a sentencing hearing The sentencing hearing is a formal hearing where the court hears from the county attorney representing the state of Arizona and the victims regarding the impact that the crimes have had on them. Clayton and Greg Gillespie, who are both listed as victims in this case, would have the opportunity to speak directly to the judge at the sentencing hearing. This is when they can ask the judge to consider jail time as part of her sentence If it's convincing and the judge feels that we are in the right with what we're stating then they can basically impose what we're requesting. If she were to plead guilty, Laura would also have the opportunity to speak at her own sentencing and other people are welcome to speak on her behalf I think Laura is going to be very tempted to talk about how she's been victimized by what's happened and how she's been bullied by social media. And listen, I'm sure there has been some comments made on social media that are not very flattering I would, if Laura listened to me, remind her about who brought this to the media's attention If Laura doesn't receive a prison sentence She'll likely be on probation As we said, that could still include jail time. often has a component of what they call colloquially hotel time So a lot of times you're allowed to get out during the day during jail time and go to work five days a week and come back under some programs It's basically like a work release program where you spend nights and weekends in jail During the day, you can leave to go to work But there's a major caveat here In Arizona Qualifying for this kind of work release isn't automatic On probation, an offender has to comply with a specific set of rules For example you have to prove you're gainfully employed And you must generally clock at least thirty two hours of work a week If an offender doesn't meet these requirements they can end up spending more time behind bars I do think an appropriate consequence has her incarcerated for a period of time feels the same way For him Real accountability means incarceration When he met with prosecutors, that's what he told them I asked for a readjustment of the plea, which it may or may not occur es. I asked for at least a year, minimum of just jail or prison So in the eleventh hour, he's been ramping up communication with prosecutors. Nobody knows Laura better than we do as the victims while the prosecutor has done a great job and has put her feet to the flame It's important for us to be able to explain that, hey, this isn't enough