UK Social Media Restrictions

It's time for Mac break weekly. Jason Snell has the week off. Cratulations to his kid graduating from college. but Good news. John Gruber of Daring Fireball sits in along with Andy Anaco and Christina Warren. and of course We are going to analyze a week later now what Apple announced with Siri and Apple's new AI. What it really means, where it comes from, how to use it. John's got a lot of experience. He's been using it all week. That's coming up next. onm Mac Break Weekly Tests you love from people you trust This is Tit This is Mac Break Weekly, episode one thousand twenty nine Recorded Tuesday, june sixteenth, twenty twenty six. Intimate functionalities It's time for Mac Break Weekly, the show we cover the latest Apple news and here we are in one week out of the reality distortion field. So this is when the actual story begins. Christina Warren is here Pelber addvocate at GitHub Hello, Christin Hello Leo. Christina was on Twit so she's getting a little overdose of me. I'm sorry. I was gonna to say it's not that. I'm not getting an overdse of you. The audience is getting an overdose of me. Oh no, they're happy to see you. No, no, no. donon't get that wrong. Also here andotcoo. com I'm happy happy to say that. mr. And do you not come Hello, Andrew. Chief editor at Ocde Com. What can I say? I nailed the interview. They said that was a good fit But we had to had I on probation for sixty days. So Jason snells out. We had to search him. F and wide for somebody whose website's been going on longer than yours, Andy And we And we found him. John Gruber is here from Daring Fireball. Legend. Hello, John. Good to see you. Hey, welcome. How are the Yank glad to be here? Excellent Okay So you'll be in a good mood Yes Just checkking. You're not a Kickerbuckers fan, though, are you? No, but I'm happy to see them win. I must fan for Reels, right? You know I've evolved into it's the one sport where I root for my local team, the Sixers Oh yes, sir. you're in Philly what am I thinking I de with Yeah but it's it's How could you not root for the n I don't know. They're in the team. Although our twenty two year old came upstairs yesterday said they're rioting in New York City I said, no, they're not. That's the celebration. No, they're burning buses Well, that's just usually a good thing to say. There's at least a seventy percent chance you're right that there's someone's writing about something somewhere I remember when the Eagles won the Super Bowl, they had to grease the light poles dead Oh that didn't stop him. No. It didn't It's it is literally the most useless job in the city of Philadelphia to grease the poles before the Pillies or the Eagles win a championship because the people who are going to climb them climb them anyway. So what was the point of greasing? What's the point And also they're going to by the time they get back down, they're going to be covered with grease and therefore harder for the police to cuff Yeah, it's a very th defeating plan. That's right. Yeah. And the weird tradition, it comes from South Philly and the Italian American community. and when they have like holidays where they do it, they have contests. They grease the pollls. They train with greased pollls. They train. That's right Port. But John, were at you were in Coopertino last week. Jason Snow was, I guess he's still there. I don't know. He's on vacation. He had a very return. Noll He'll never return. He'll be back next week. But I'm so glad we could get John here. watched the talk show. It was exciting. You had Neil Patel back and Joanna Stern Who is not? I'm happy to say a robot And And actually the three of you, or maybe it was you who said it There is that reality distortion field when you're in in the circle The force field of what Apple's saying kind of Even without Steep job encompasses you. But now here we are a week later And we can kind of absorb and think What What's your take on Apple's AI announcement I think they nailed it. I've been using it primarily on a spare iPhone since Monday. I mean, I started installing it a week ago right after the keynote And it's, you know, two years after they initially announced it, the stuff they said would work works. because you were a little, let's face it, a little u bitter about the announcement two years ago Oh I wouldn't say that I was bitter. I tri it is rotten. Well, I said something is rotten. No it was something else. Okay, I just assumed you meant that Yeah, but I think that piece holds up. It does It does. pie You know, it's one of the to me, one of the best things about Apple institutionally is that they it does come from Steve Jobs. He wanted to show things when they were finished. and he knew it just seemed like intuitively announce you're so excited about something when it feels like it's almost done, right? And everybody I mean, it doesn't matter. Everybody knows this, right? the The first ninety percent takes half the time and the other ten percent takes the other ninety percent of the time, right? It's the end of finishing anything, a house project, a work project anything. The end takes more time. And so you're excited because you feel like you're ninety percent there or seventy percent there and you want to tell the world because you feel like, oh, you know, the end's in sight. Let's announce it now. And that's just not the apple way. They announnce things when they are ready to ship. like, hey, you can buy this next Tuesday or you can buy this you can preorder Friday or you can download it later today after this keynote And so the way that they preannounced what they called Apple intntelligence two years ago U Oh, sorry, I didn't Clearly apologize, that was not commentary. Clearly mute the audience m, but they are loving what you're laying down man Clearly without the end in sight. I mean, and again, do I think they thought it was going to be canceled? No, of course not. They would have to be insane, right They clearly thought there was some chance that they would be able to ship it on the promised schedule, but they obviously couldn't. and they had to go back to the drawing board. And a lot of the explanation we saw last week at W WWDC, the hardest to say on a podcast conference name known to man was explaining how they went back to the drawing board with new an all new way to do their models. But the end result is what they've landed on really works. and it really is what a very apple like approach to on device AI. I think that was our That's my take last week, right? Christina. We felt like they Anyway, to me, it's what The vast majority of people who haven't much of an experience with AI or only with chat GPTs, chat bot will be using going forward. and this will give them I think a good sense of what AI can do It's, you know, I mean, anybody who's been using AI seriously wayond well beyond what Si's going to be able to do But it's still for the billion and a half people using iPhones, this is going to be a big thing You' muted Miss Christian Sorry. it's great to have a good default. I mean, that's really what it comes down to is that it's a default. Yeahah. It's the fact that it's a default. And it's the fact that I think we can all be honest about it and some of us have been since twenty twenty four. that like the default has been pretty terrible. And so if it's not terrible, even if that's damning with. praise that's a really good thing. if the default experience and I think especially when you get into things like how this willll be able to work with doing things with shortcuts and with other types of automations that only Apple can really let you do with a fully integrated vertically integrated ecosystem That I think is going to be fantastic for a lot of folks. but yeah, you're right. mean, I think there are many, many people who already use Claude and ChatGBT and Gemini, but there are lots of other people who don't or only use it sparingly and the fact that it can be built into their device and you know hopefully work as it has been shown off to work is only a good thing. Yeah And there's no chance that Siri is so smart that the Commerce Department will ban it, is there Oh's a little notot so long as Tim has more golden chot keys make Yeah drop. K keep making those keep making those gold bars, Tim. You may be needing them Um But since we met last, It' kind of ironic rightight after the show, Fable was released last Tuesday. and by Friday banned by the federal government. We'll talk more about that of course. machines on Wednes Um, So Did it do you think well, what do you think, Andy? Do this live up to what Apple promised two years ago? I think we forget about what Apple promised two years ago. Yeah. I think they'd like to forget about it. I honestly think that You know, I was try I was while I was watching the keynote, I was sort of repeating the demonstrations that they were giving giving on my pixel phone through Gemini and a couple other ad. They't what I loved about it was that no, they didn't show off anything that I haven't been able to do daily for the past year or so, okay? But that's not terribly impressive. What's impressive is how well it seems like a feature of the iPhone, a feature of the entire experience. What would have been a big, big fail is if they'd come back and said, hereere is a feature of the keyboard that where it can predict some text for you. Here is a feature of the launcher where it can automatically take things down for you. Here's a new feature we've added to calendar. And now here's a separate app, that's our intelligent assistant What they did is they basically said there is an assistant that much like if you are lucky enough to raate an office with an assistant at a desk outside the door, they're always there out of sight. When you call upon them, they'll stick their head in the door and fix things for you and get involved in what you need them to do. But the thing is it's always a presence, even if you're not actually using it And it seems like such a natural and integral way to enhance the entire iPhone experience that I mean, I've got a piece that I didn't finish yesterday because I got thinking too hard about it about I used to I used to think that AI was one of the great levelers because look, I can basically get whatever AI assistant I want on whatever phone I want. So it lock in is no longer as big a problem. So if I'm using AI as one of my points of contact for a lot of the features that I'm doing However, Apple, either intentionally or just because they like to make things that are beautiful and elegant, they've built something that is not in any way on the same level as an app that works alongside, even an app that is integrated with the other apps on your phone. Gemini is great. I love Gemini. I'm continuing to pay twenty bucks a month forever for it, but it will never be as accessible and as part of the day to day moment by moment experience on the iPhone as Siri is. I'm really, really excited to find out If they can fill out the rest of the experience to make it as reliable and consistent as Gemini is. Gemini has one still has addition to all the stuff it can do. It's also the thing where I trust it to have an answer to whatever problem I throw at at this point. Even if it's not perfect. I know how it works and I know how to get it to do what I want and I'm pretty sure it's going to get me ninety percent there It would be terrible if Siri AI is just good at takaking down those calendar things and I can count off okay, here are these eleven things I'm going to throw to Siri. anything else I want going to switch over to Claud, I'm going to switch over to Gemini. If they can actually mature this in the course of a year or two where I'm just using it over Gemini, my favorite agent because it's just easier to use and it's more in my mind space when I'm doing something on my iPhone That would be a miracle, but I think it's a very, very attainable miracle for them after what they've shown off last week You actually I think one of the most interesting things is that they did say we with A intense Developers can also build this intelligence into their own apps. And of course, that's a two way street because those apps will then feed information back to Siri, which can then Cate information from a variety of apps, but you point this out during Fireball, John private cloud, the highest end compute is is actually going to be limited to people with a lot of money Myself No All right, vice versa No, right. you can't buy your way out of it. actually even more limited. You have to have fewer than two million first time app downloads. Right. And it's not just for an app that you want to add private cloud or Apple intelligence to. And I think could be wrong But I'm pretty sure that it's like if an app is using Apple intelligence Don't e I could be wrong, but I think that you asked the system do something and then the system determines whether it's going to try to do it with an on device model or oh, that's difficult. We're going to send that off to private cloud c I got that they were orest And that they don't really want individual apps to be making that decision. Let the system decide what's difficult for that so that you don't. But basically, to use that in a third party app in Apple Intelligence, you have to be part of the small business program, which has its own like a million dollars in revenue, I forget what you know, but somewhere around there. Um And ninety some percent of developers do qualify for the small business program. But in addition to that Whatever the developer's most popular app is, of all All time It has to be under two million initial downloads. This is to what Amazon from using it or Snapchat or Ma or what? I hope that Apple that maybe they didn't think too much of. I guess, I guess the gist is I And again, Apple being Apple, they're not explaining what the explanation is, but I think the basic explanation is Ocham's Razor applies that The most important thing from Apple's perspective is Siri AI That's what most people are going to use. And that's Apple's use case of private cloud compute And then add to that the things where Apple itself is using intelligence like numbers and pages and Keynote you know, with the creative Studio editions where they've added some AI features. Obviously, Apple is not limited to apps with only two million downloads. It's Apple. So H is I think worried, and I think probably reasonably so that they're going to be under, you know, whatever they expect their usage of private clloud compute in their servers and Apple some of the Some of the queries are still going to go to the ones running Apple Silicon. But the big message was that the most complex models are the ones running Gemini on the server in Google owned facilities, but running Apple software, you know, it's a collaboration, blah, blah, blah withationships, but is it really Gemini? They don't they kind of pretend it's not. Well Dave They say it's Apple Foundation models T that or Hpni or something. Yeah. something like that. They're not At least it's not Gemini in terms of when you ask a question and in Siri And then you go to your Geminii. It's not going to show up in your Gemini history, right? It's seemingly different. Yeah It really is. It's like starting with a go back far enough to the roots and But is it I mean their own version. The White. thirty white late It could be white labeled Gemini or it could be Something else, I don't know. anyway but for third part it it's just you're not going to get access to that. if you're big if you're that big, you're going to Yeah I can't even pay for it Yeah right, I spoke to one developer who or Gy Rambo who tweeted about it on Messodon that he he's got an old app from twenty ten and it's sitting at like one point six million downloads, you know Now what does he do? Does he pull the app from the app store so that it doesn't cross two million and he's locked out of Apple Intel? Hopefully, they'll just rethink this limitation. Basically, they don't want big developers using it because they don't know if they can keep up and what their bill from Google is going to be. right? Well That makes sense. It's just it's economic, not anti competitive. That makes sense actually Yeah. and I think, you know, come next year or maybe halfway through the year. if everything looks good and hey, once Siri AI has rolled out to the general IOS population in the fall when IOS twenty seven ships for real and it's out of beta and real people are using it around the world orver whatever countries they initially roll it out and if they can keep up with it and it doesn't fall down and the server bill isn't too big from Google Maybe they'll loosen the restrictions on third party apps, but I think it's sort of like one thing and one thing first and that's Apple's built in use of Apple intelligence and Siri first And let's make sure that works before they expand it to third party developers One of my favorite cryptographers, Matthew Greene from Johns Hopkins says private Cloud isn't all that private. He says, private inference isn't private enough U his issue is that It's going to inevitably leak information because when it calls out to the world It's going to call out with your prompt and that's going to leak out. So He gives actually a scenario in here. calendar, for instance, if you're going to try to make a reservation at a restaurant or actually with a number of participants that That information is going to have to leak out in order for it to to work So he's a cryptographer and so he always thinks of the adversarial situation. but I think this is This is important to remember, you can say private C cloud and we've seen this before with data anonymization and other things, but it isn't always private as one would think Nevertheless, this is isn't this what Apples biggest pitches, we may not have the smartest AI. But we have the most private AI Yes You agree, Christine? I mean, maybe. I mean, I think that's definitely the marketing narrative, right? Like I think that's definitely what they're pushing. And there is definitely some truth to it, right? that at Aapple saying, look, we're not training on this data. We're not trying to use this to build something else. Although I would, I guess like to see some of the really fine print about how they're getting any sort of data to train anything where's that data coming from? Right I was going to say, I find it hard to believe that all of it is synthetic. It might be one of those things that you opt in. like if you opt in to let Siri improve or if you opt in to like give developers feedback They might they say it'll be aud auditible by third party. Right. Right. And so it might be one of those things where, you know,' we're not taking your prompt history and specific things, but we might take general usage based things to know cover behavior. I'm not sure At the same time, so I feel like some of it is, you know a marketing narrative, but I think a successful one, and there's some validity to that. At the same time, you know I think Matthew Green is incredibly bright and I'm not saying that he is wrong. But I do wonder if that misses the point a little bit, right? Because I don't think that there exists a way where we could have AI that would actually be useful that would be as privacy and would do all the privacy focused and would do all the things that would actually make it useful that anyone would actually want to use. Like there has to be a certain amount of give and take on that. and that's why I hope that there are ways for people who really are like, I don't want any of this, that you can just turn all of this off. But I think that this becomes kind of one of those implicit agreements that we all have to make. and this does get into Ironically, in a but it kind of underscores some of the tension with the EU, I think, a little bit, which is that you have to take the trade offffs if you want to use this technology. And some of that means that, yeah, some of the prompt information or some other data transfer will exist, But that happens anyime you interact with a third party API. It's not like this is a new thing. I mean Ale will be better than everybody else. They may not be perfect. Right Exactly. And well, maybe they'll be better. mayaybe they won't. I don't know. but I think that they definitely are using it as a a selling point for themselves But I just don't think that it's possible for us to have AI in this way that's going to be actually useful and fully localized and never talk to any sort of third party and have any ability for data to ever leak in any conable We were debating this on security. Now we had somebody email and say Aren't these companies collecting everything? How can I do this privately? And I saw it I foolishly, I guess thought, No, no, no, unless you ask them to remember stuff. they're not collecting this. Well, I gota signal message from a guy who shall remain nameless who says, spepeaking with insider knowledge from one of the frrontier AI companies, they absolutely extract every bit of knowledge and insight from user chats. I said, Well wait, wait, what if I don't turn on memory in the chat app He says turning off memory means they aren't exposed to the user, but they're still extracted by the provider for their use according to the terms and conditions Yes, memories are extracted and leveraged in first party CLI harnesses as well Unless you're an enterprise Eerprise is a little bit different. They're business agreement. They're sensitive. R. Yeah Christina. I always mean to ask you like When Google announced their private AI compute, basically as a response to Apple's whole like firework show about it's absolutely ennggineering wise, impossible for Apple or any other company to see any of the data that you're sending to us when we need to use an AI cloud model they seem they seem to be kind of equivalent in terms of what I would want as a user. they're' going They seem to be going at it in different directions where Google is not necessarily writing an entirely new operating system, that's privacy cloud AI based. But I could also also, given how they explained it, I couldn't see how data could get out or be observed by Google. Like you ever have you looked at those two? what are they kind of equivalent or They seem very similar. They seem very similar. And might there might be differences in the implementation and there might be differences in certain things they can do, but the idea is definitely the same But I think that the big thing there is that not everything that you're using associated with the Google product and that's a thing that everybody should know, es even if you're paying, if you're not a business user, if that thing isn't on Google has always been very upfont about the fact that it uses your data to make things better. But I do think that in terms of the way that the Google is like define private AI compute and how to build private AI stuff for some of the Gemini models on the cloud, it is similar to what Apple is doing. But like the Gemini consonsumer apps, No, I mean that that's part of the terms of service. know that this is a thing that's happening. that yes, we can trade on your data, we can trade on your prompts. Admiral Birdie says in our discord, ye, Google for Enterpres definitely has a different set of rules. you could tell because it's terrible There is something to be said for memory. I mean, one of the things I do with my agent is I have like three different memory systems because I want it to remember everything, but it's local as opposed to putting it up on the All right, I'llop being a negative Nelle.' let's be more positive about this. So John, you've played with Siri. What kinds of queries have you asked? What's your experience been A. It's funny because the hardest part about it honestly is Remembering that I'm supposed to be asking Siri to be useful. Like are You aren't really used to that, are you? Yeah? It's like your cousin after his second rehab and everyone's telling you that it took he's responsible now. But I'm not used to asking him to pick up stuff at the market and giving him cash Yes, exactly. and he is in recovery and he's doing great and you really for don't it's, you know,'re always waiting, aren't you for that to You know, And it's already Saturday night it is eight o'clock. He's, you know, you know, and it's like, no, he's great. He can drive, you know, Um But it's like little things, totally realistic. my Barber is in a building where to get in the building, you need a doorcode from the street. and I can never fregin remember it And so I literally was going to get a haircut on Frid Saturday and I just asked Tola tell me that's his name Tola. What did he tell me the doorcode is? Wow. And it took a couple seconds and then it surfaced a text message from, I don't know, a week or two ago or last time I got a haircut you know, a couple weeks, but showed me the text message in IMessage and read the code aloud. The only That's very cool Yeah, and it's a real realistic scenario. you know, And it's like I knew it was in my text messages and I could have gone in there and looked him up and scrolled back. But I was on the sidewalk walking through the city and just said it aloud to the iPhone. And you know, was it fast? No, but was it too slow? No. It was a totally reasonable amount of time to get the answer and it was correct U Was it the same speed as they showed on stage roughly? I mean Yeah, I would say so, which was, you know, a little uncomfortably slow. No, but I liked that. I appreciated that they did that because They being honest about this. I loved it. and that was a huge part of my something is rotten in the state of Coopertino was that they clearly had edited the ones from two years ago And Well, as we pointed out, they paid a quarter of a billion dollars settlement for false advertising. that money. And probably more Honestly, probably more than that reputationally, right Like It's one of those things like what is your reputation worth? You can't really put a dollar on it And I think whatever they paid in that a class action lawsuit. they lost more than that in terms of their the reputational h to their You know Yeah And, you know, that's that's the type of thing. lots of little Things that I have been going to ChatPT more for because web search results often just don't put the obvious answer first. what time Do the Kicks play, you know, what time is the next game in the NBA finals or something? I mean, obviously it's next year at this point, but like last week, there were they were legit questions. And it gave the right answer every time And there were the sort of questions. And again, there's that button right on the side of the phone begging to be used to ask these sort of questions And it's so hard to retrain myself to like, hey, I'm you know, doing this professionally to test it over the summer But like, you know, last year, it wasn't like I had a reason to try Siri after WWDC. There was no reason to try it again. But that's the differe can you can those typees of questions. I've also been asking questions Well, I just want to add, the other thing I've been asking are questions that are answered in my Apple nototes. I'm a big user of Apple Notes Um I've got like, I don't know, two thousand of them, two thousand one hundred and forty seven. Asking questions that are stored in my Apple notes and it gives me the right answer every time That's the I think that that is something that like Chat G BT and Claud can't Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. You can ask chat GPT when the next game is, that's any AI can do them. that. but it doesn't know what's in your notes. It doesn't know it's in your messages. And that's the I think that's the real value that Apple can add that's what gets me about the possibility of lock in. And it's true of Google serervices too It's like, I don't like I don't like Google do that though. they? Well, I mean, they they've got the daily brief that they annou they introduced last month. and I've been finding it actually surprisingly shockingly useful. Like I didn't plan to start using it, but the thing is like that daily that daily notification, every time I tap it, it does surface something that I might have forgotten about or a message that I totally missed onna have dinner with nine of my friends on Friday, possibly partly because like this message that got Buried in five hundred WWDC mails, like it's surface at fors. Oh, by the way, your friends are still waiting for you to reply to this. But the thing is, like it works right now at least, it works great on every single Google service that you have, including your chats with Gemini, your messages, Google messages, everything like that. onnce you go outside there out our mailboxes, if you're using Apple calendar, if you're using Apple messages, it's not going to see that. and it's not going to get stuff from there And it would bum me out if I liked Siries so much that I had to switch from my favorite note taking app, which is Notion. and I had to switch to Apple Notes because it's the one that works the best. I'm sure there's going to be some sort of a braid, some sort ofplug that's why' not theseese two million dollars plus companyies I'm sorry Jlin I'morry Joplinotion. but I guess they don't need access to use the intents.'s just they don't get private Coud so they could They I mean, hopefully but the thing is like and the thing is I have that knowledge and I have that interest that there must be a plugin for Joplin for this. It's an open source. ate community. But the the thing is like Well, I'm sorry, just to finish my thought The people who are just normal consumers, they can't really be expected to put in all that kind of effort and put that trust into a third party. So they're basically going to use what is wired up and working and great and polished and perfect when you take the phone out of the box. whether it is Gemini on a pixel phone or whether it is Siri AI on an iPhone. and I don't I'm in a perfect world that I know that can't exist, It would be just as easy to integrate these AI systems with any tool that you have rather than it being naturally more knowledgeable about its own in house stuff than anything that's outside so but um, So do we know If third party apps data will be available to Siri, this is something the developer has to turn on, right? So The Joplin developer would have to have what it's an intent to share with Siri. How does that work? Do we know Anybody? I don't. I know how it works on I know how it works on Android. I can see why Apple might not want to do that because then you're compelled to use notes And messages. Well and also then also to be fair, there's a privacy and security angle to it where they can make sure they can know that the conduit between Syri and what they their is they give themselves privileges that that they can't they can't responsibly give to random third party developers. It's less useful though, isn't it? If you is? Absolutely So there is an app intense framework. and that basically, and I'm reading off their website right now, make content and actions discoverable by Avel intelligence and support system experiences like series spotlight shortcuts and widgets And so you could open it up to sppotlight or too So you could open up to sppotlight and Apple intelligence. now how That will be specifically integrated into something like Siri AI. I don't know and how deeply that will go. Okay, here, they have a whole thing. Apple intntelligence and Siri AI. integrate your app with Apple intntelligence and bring it to Siri AI. So they do have I like that. They do have ways to do that, but that would mean yeah, the developers have to do that. and I'm sure that at least on the IOS side, I think Mac might be a little bit more difficult but to be completely candid with you, I don't think MacOS is going to be a big Apple AI use case. Really? I don't think so. No, because I think that there why? why would you Claude and Chad GBT and Jim and I their desktop apps already work J just as well Like to me, the default is not good enough on the desktop and I might be one in that But I feel like default can be good enough on the phone. on the desktop, I've already been able to do all the things that they're telling me Apple Intelligence can do for years. There's zero reason why I would want to have to jump through additional hoops assuming that my note taking app of choice or something didn't have an app intent. if that makes any sense. This is something Google wanted to do for a long time. Remember they had those cards the Google Now cards, you would slide to the right on on the pixel and then you'd have Oh, your plane is on time and you're going to be at the airport in a half an hour. And and Google have backed off on that because I think it has a certain amount of creepy. Have you played Andy with Dream Beans yet In Google? I have not used dream beans yet. Dream beans is a Google. All dream beans. ye is a. We had some fun with that topic a few weeks ago on the Google Show. This is a Google experiment and it looks into your it looks into your deepest darkest secrets and then produces these You can show my screen, John. It produces these art Cartoons. So that's me and my wife, pretty pretty good likeness and it's telling me that we could get fresh produce at the Eastide Farmers's markarket It's saying I should check my Arch Linux setup for. Now, how does it know I'm using Arch Linux? I don't know, but it does. For the atomic arch hijack I already did Try the rebuilt Siri AI app and the Apple IOS twenty seven deeveloper Bab. Look how content I am in my little you know sweater in my armchair. Cooking a forty eight hour sous vide chuck roast for a midwek dinner It knows things about me that look, it even knows I have an Ava sous vide. It must be looking at my Purchases I got it's a little creepy. That's exactly what my gym looks like Well, o well this this is like even two years ago, I was when Apple gave us their first cut at Apple Intelligence, I'm saying, you're really saying that Apple has a unique advantage over other AI because Google has accessiversal information Right. You are you are drinking at a high school level. They are Google is drinking at a Marti Grout level when it comes to knowing getting information about But if I know I'm unusual because I don't mind this. I want it to know everything and I want it to give me that useful information. But I think a lot of people would be very like It Well it depends. Like I've always said My personal point of view and it's just a personal point of view, is that you enter into a contract, so so to speak with Google and I'm willing to give them exposure to all kinds of data about me. And in return, they give me services that are greatly, greatly, greatly enhanced by knowledge of my life is and what my intentions are at any given moment. Other people may not like that dealope and if they can turn it down, then I think that overall that's an okay thing. The problem is that when there's the surveillance is happening sunrise to sunset, even to people who do not want to enter into that bargain. We enter into that bargain with Apple as well. It's just that they don't at this point monetize the data that they're collecting very well. and also to this point before Siri AI, I don't think they do a really good job of enhancing my experience with their personal knowledge of me. I will so again, that's why I love these features like the Daily brief where I didn't really set anything up, but it was able to remind me, oh, by the way, you've also you were working on this coding project last week. You might want to look back at this Python library that you werere looking at because that looked like that was going to be something that you were very, very interested in. I think that it does a very, very good job at that I don't know that they always do this, as you say in the least creepiest manner. One of the things I like about Google is that they are willing to do and do things and label them an experiment and put them in a place called Labs. It is lab, right. know we know this is out there. We just think this is cool. And based on how people freak out or embrace this, like notebook at Lab started out as an experiment. started out as a P peopleeople love it. And it revolutionized it' greatolutionized is one of the best things that in my opinion, like Google put out at all. and then it obviously became like a real product. But yeah, that they do at least Be you know, the Google grayard is real. They're willing they're willing to swing in a miss in public in front of a thirty thousand paying fans. There's also the issue of hallucinations. A German court has ruled that Google is liable for the AI overviews if they're wrong, that they can be sued for life. Now this is why Apple one of the reasons why Apple quite wisely said, no serory for you. For instance, Dream Beans thinks for some reason I'm going to Rome in December. Now I would love to be going to Rome in December, but it says There's a beautiful gate just a short walk from my hotel. That's clearly a hallucination. don I don't know where We I got that, but nevertheless, I don't know.ck your check your credit card and make sure maybe I am going to Rome too. Now you're gonnaoney. I've got a little surprise for you. You're going to see a few burned out and overturned police cars. That means you're heading the right direction. That's where the carnival is. flying over the N Celebration Anyway, let's take a little break. We will have more. You're watching Mac Break Weekly. Great to have John Gruber of Daringfireball. net I I wanted you to tell that story. I didn't I didn't wasn't aware of this Oh bless you of why it's. net, even though you have. comot But hold on hold the thought. We'll do that in a secondc. Christina Warren is also here GitHub where she's developer relations and is avid AI user What is what local model are you using in your framework these days God, I think I'm still using Quin Yeah, I was using Qin until yesterday when GLM five point two came out Yeah, I haven't had a chance to play with that one yet Is it good? I'll put it on. This is actually now the real downside of having these agents is like I keep trying all these new models. It's a really bad it's a bad habit, you know? But the agent remembers everything regardless of the model. So it's really the agent is Well, that's nice thing, right? is that if you're using Hermeserop openenclaw or whatever, like that takes care of all the history and memory for you, and then you can just swap the model out. JLM five two, so far, veryy impressive, yes. Cool. I'm very impressed. Also, Andy Anako, who religiously writes all his posts on Nako dot com himself in my freezing garret, just like Laboem only without the music. Mus the tuberculosis. You're still young. you're coming. Well, let me tell you something If If you think you've got a strange cough, you might want to listen to our next sponsor, Zach Doc. lifeife can feel like a puzzle. You're constantly trying to fit all the pieces together, your career, your passions, and of course Your healthcare It's a lot, but finding health carere should not be the trickiest piece to fit into everything going on. 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Stop putting off those doctor appointments, go to Zachdoc. com slash Mac brereak to find and instantly book a doctor you love today that's Zocdoc. com slash BreakzZockdoc d. com slash And we thank Zak Dak for sponsoring this message sess U I was going to ask John about Daring Fireball for I've trained myself to type. net But then you said you have d. com This is So I don't when I do a media appearance, you know, CNN or something like that, if they, you know, and it's like, we're going to be on the air in a minute. you sound good, you look good or whatever. And they're like daringfireball. comot I think I'll like Be do Yeah. I register both domains in two thousand two, maybe two thousand one, maybe the site started in two thousand two, but I might have had the domain a year before I launched. but I've got both But backack then, I had it in my head that dot com was for companies and commerce on the internet. And it wasn't what I was doing. And I wasn't an org. so I didn't even register daringfireballot org because I'm not an organization. I'm on the internet. I don't know When he when the domain name system started in the nineties, I just thought d. net was like dot interternet. Like that's the neutral main top level domain for a site on the internet And I was gonna to stick with it. And when I launched Daring Fireball, I had both domains and daringfireball dot com has just redirected to daringfireball d. net for twenty four years in counting. It doesnn't matter if you get it wrong, but If I could go back and if I could go back in time to my younger self, I'd say give it up that. net thing is is not going to happen. So oldld timers will remember that this for a long time. I called this a netcast and even the opening it said netcasts you love Finally, my marketing team a couple of years ago, said, can we please, please just call it a podcast. Nobody knows what the hell you're talking about, Leo. So I love it that you never gave in This is the advantage you have. You don't have's also a marketing team. Also Al also John. I've always thought that it was like, you know how like Every house has like the front door that enters into the living room and then there's a side door that enters into the kitchen and everybody who's in the family or friend of the family doesn't bother with the front door. They go around to the kitchen door. I' always thought that your d. net is the kitchen door. It's like people who are like part of the group theyt even have to call ahead I love that. My mother in law's house is exactly like that. And when when somebody it's like a holiday, it's like Easter Sunday and somebody rings or knocks on the front door, it's like, o, who's that? Who's that? Wh could that possibly be? ifone if someone's knocking on and rattling the screen door in the kitchen, you actually drop what you're doing and answer the door because it is someone you want to see Doorbell, process server, salesman, Yes by Waterloo and our discord system. When I was growing up, we only had six domains dot com d. edu. mil. orggan gov. and we liked it Oh, you didn't have to type in addresses. Oh, fancy I have for a long time, I've been Leo. Fm on my blog. And I still and my email is d. email and I still constantly have to tell people, No, notot email. com . Fn. com People are people are all stuck with that. So Well I want to talk a little bit about what role Gemini plays. How much Gemini really is inside Siri AI? You went to that little panel they had after the keynote, John We're just Rockwell and Fredigi, Freder Rigi, and they stood on they sat in chairs and they did the demos. Mike did the same demo he did in the film, which I thought was that's kind of a giveaway. It's a little bit of a canned demo. U But they were adamant that this is not Gemini Well Federgi's Rant was pretty good and the diagram was pretty good. But I think what the problem Apple is facing is that Google made the decision marketing wise to use the name Gemini for everything AI related or at least LLM related. and What was the name that they had Bard Yeah first right They had chter. They had B Bard was doing some bad things. Yeah. And if they had made different names for H the models from the product. And just for example, you know, like you could be using GPT three. I mean, I know that's old, but it's like that's the name of the model. But then what app are you using? Oh, the app is chat GPT.. there' it's like effectively they were using like the equivalent of like GPTash four point five. But Google just calls it Gemina They're using the mod, there are they you know, and and they're also being very secretive, perhaps just because they're Apple, perhaps because it's in the contract with Google thats some of the technical details. But they started with the model and then collaborated with Google to build their own model on top of the base model from Google that isn't connected to the rest of the Gemini system Right? So if you have never signed up for a Google account, period, you don't even have a Gmail address You can use Apple intntelligence and there's, you know, you'd never know you're integrating with something from Google. It is like saying that you're using Microsoft's C compiler But now it's running on the Mac and it's compiling C code into a binary that you can run They're using Google's models to build out their own models. and it's Effectively, you don't need to know this except or there is no except. you could not know this and you can happily use the new Siri AI and never worry about it Proof basically is My one week experience using Siri AI is so positive and anything I can think of that's negative is like,, that could be a little bit better. but there are no there have been no Oh, that is so off the rails and no modern LLM system would ever make a mistake. There have been no fluffs like that and I that Do you ever Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think anything that I would call hallucination. And a couple of times where I've compared some answers versus Chat GPT, if anything, Apple's answers seem to be more accurate And I think that's basically it. that instead of doing their own research and paying the literally tens of billions of dollars to train a leading edge model, They've just piggybacked on top of Google to, you know, to borrow one to use it as their own, but it is their own. There's a lot of pride that Apple has I think it's a wounded pride in their models. L we have our own models Our models are very good. Don't we're not, we're not this isn't Gemini and yet It isice So that's the question. It's not a C compiler. I guess Christina, we think it's distillation, right? That they trained post trained The AFM models on Cha. Yeah, I mean, look that's what I think. And I mean John was in the room with them. so he can speak more to that. But that does seem to be exactly what I think by the way, John's right, noobbody cares about this except No but it is interesting. I mean, but one of the things I think that that Federii apparently said this is I'm quoting Macwrold, who, I guess, was able to get this down T trained using proprietary data with reinforcement learning and refined using outputs from Gemini frontier models. Y. That's distillation, right? That's distillation. That's what this is. And what that's what I'd assumed this was last week. Now that doesn't mean that the distillation doesn't mean that it operates in a way that might be better in some ways. It could be worse in some ways, right? Like we've already seen reports from people saying that if you want to get images created of certain historical figures or other things that the guardrails might be higher than they are if you were to just use the Gemini directly through Google. And as John also pointed out, and this is a very valid point and I can say this because I used to have to work on these things and explain The differences, which was sometimes difficult The Gemini that you get from the Gemini Consumer app or from like Gemini Enterprise or whatever is not necessarily the same as if you get it directly from using the Gemini API calls. They're similar. There are modifications that you make to kind of the base model. and that again, does become difficult to understand as a consumer, although you don't really need to. It's worse, I think, more if you're Google because you call everything Gemini and then it's a different experience slightly different model on every serface that you're on. and that's confusing. Whereas Apple is just have you know, kind of their distillation on top of the core, you know, Gemini models. and I assume that they'll, you know, continue to do reinforcement and distillation over time. Well, that's my question is this may not be a long term relationship with Gemini. I mean, they could after a few years, say thank you, byye bye. know They could. I'm sorry, just to interject. that's why this is an interesting conversation to have because when the partnership excuse me, when the business relationship was first announced, one of the things that was on the table was, okay, so are they is Gemini going to be part of Apple intelligence and that while they to buy them some time while they build out and get Apple intelligence, their own Apple intelligence models working, and then at some point they' pop out the Gemini, pop back in the Apple intelligence, Or is it the sort of thing where it's always going to be Apple's own models, but they're getting tuning from Gemini. they're getting the training from Gemini, they're getting experience from Gemini, so that gradually the dependence on Gemini is going to be less and less and less But it will never be a case where you're not using an Apple actual model. It's a billion dollars a year plus whatever compute they're going to be buying from. I can't imagine beyond Apple's revulsion of relying on outside technology. They're going to want to keep writing those checks year after year after year indefereitely Well, I mean but it would cost them so much more to build it themselves. Well exactly. mean that' don't even would literally cost them more. I was going to say, they don't have where are you going to get the data centers? Where are you going to get the chips? where are you going to get the custom Silicon for training? How are you going to figure out how you figure out what data you can use to train the dataset because then you have to scrape everything, which they've already done with their other frontier models or tempscent of frontier model before, but I don't, I think a billion dollars a year is pretty freaking cheap. Thiss really cheap. But Google is paying a billion a month to Grock for capacity. So it's they're g they're paying Apple twenty billion a year for cas. Right. So I wonder if there's a check that goes one way and a check that goes the other way. they just give them a discount. I don't know. So that's for the es to figure out Let me jump in here and because I've been looking into this and I haven't written about it yet. I started using this over the last week. it popped into my head good journalistic instinct that I have, like, how do we know they're paying one billion dollars a year? ex point for this? And I started researching it and it really all comes down to Mark Grman. It's one reporter at one place and it was and he was right that they were he was very much right. It toally Ttally was the first to report it and it was exactly right that Apple was collaborating with Google on exactly the thing we're talking about like a sort of white label version of Gemini. He was exactly right about that. And then he put out the one billion dollar number and every that's everything you've seen about it since more or less comes back to that. That's a good point I don't. I don't think it's possible that they negotiated a flat fee. I was thinking about this. It makes no sense because if they negotiated a flat fee, Apple could let users do go crazy. And then Google is like, hey, you guys are using forty billion dollars of compute a year. And Apple's like, yeah, a good deal for one billion dollars, right It's got to be usage based. It absolutely It say If you're going to go into the cloud you're going to there'll be limits unless you have a iCloud pllus account, right? So I wouldn't be surprised if from Apple's perspective, they were like, we would like to cap our spend at a billion dollars for the next year, you know, and that that was Apple's intention and that maybe that's what Germman' source or source is told him They're looking to spend a billion dollars. And Google was like, well, if you use this much, that would cost about a billion, you know, let's say that's about a billion. And Apple's doing the math and thinking like users and how much they're going to use and they're like, okay, that would be about a billion. And that's why they put those caps in that we were talking about earlier that for example, third party apps just use Apple Intelligence and private Cloud compomute because that would that would cost Apple more Well, so I don't think they're spending much. I'll bet that they're hoping to spend a billion dollars a year. and to build the capabilities that the Apple intntelligence that you can get today in the developer betas. Anybody out there with the Apple deeveloper account can install on their phone or iPad or Mac today. But there on their own would have cost hundreds of billions of dollars and maybe not have worked. Who knows? Well, they they have already spent that. Maybe that's what the problem was that they tried There is I can't possibly believe that this is just a billion dollar deal. It's used I.'s a very good I agree. I if that was if that number had been thrown out, I've always assumed that that was basically fees for turning the wrenches and putting the pipe. I mean, Google Google's AI ort I think it's for Google they could simply have been a billion dollars just to train on Gemini to post training. Well Google's AI Cloud has a backlog of four hundred sixty billion dollars as of like last quarter. Right. Like that's how that's how big like That again, that's just the backlog. That's not like actually borrowing eighty billion dollars.. So ye. So so it's it's it'ss always It always came to it's going to be weird when Apple's going to get a honeymoon period for the next year or two because a small fraction of the iPhones that are out there are going to be capable of like running everything that can cost Apple a whole lot of money The rubber was going to meet the road in two or three years from now when most of the iPhones out there are modern enough that they are actually making a big use of Siri AI. And on top of all that, or three years Siri AI, God God willing is going to be useful enough that people are going to be relying it on it day in and day out And that's I'm thinking about this in a broad sense Is Apple going to be happy having a contractor provide that widget to them indefinitely? or do they have a financial strategy for at this point, we are going to be able to manage this. We're not going to just simply be writing checks of however much we have to pay every single year to a provider to do this for us. We are going is I mean they have their iCloud Yeah,'ve they've ever built their own data in as Fry C cloud Right Why is Ale so cagey? I mean this is all of this speculation comes out of the simple fact that Apple is being extremely cagey about it For instance, in their machine learning research white paper. They do talk about their core being a three billion parameter model. That makes sense. it's an on device model Tour advanced is an MOE With twenty billion parameters with one to four active at any given time. then That's the last bit of information you get. thenen they just say our server side workhor is AFM three clloud and then there's FM three Cloud image and then there's AFM three Cloud Pro, but they don't tell you anything about its capabilities If they were less a little less cagey We wouldn't be doing all this speculation. Is it because they think real people don't care and it's just us geeks care. I mean, there's reason to be to speculate. for instance h what about safety, John? Did you try any unsafe? Did you try to make an atom bom No, I should have before I appeared on the show. You should try some unsafe things. getet some nudes Uh, you know, just do some just I'm curious. I would imagine Apple has stricter safety restrictions in Gemini Oh, I think so. I've tried, I forget what I tried. I wish I had it off the top. Did you ask it how to get pizza toppings to stay on? No, I did not ask that one either. I'll bet it gets it. I'll bet none of them are gonna to get that one wrong again. someone did give it the carwash question and it did pass It did pass the car. It it passed it in a weird way, but it passed it. So Actually actually in a condescending way, which I loved Yeah, which is well, I don't yeah, you could walk it, but I would think that you'd want to drive your car now you're going to be washing your car So honestly, if your head weren't screwt on. Leah, we have a great example and it happens to be between the same two companies, Apple and Google It's one of the benefits to Apple institutionally of the fact that their leadership is so long stayed at the company, right that these people don't, you know, once you become a senior leader at Apple, that tends to be where you write out your career. So the people who are there remember when this happened But when the iPhone launched, Steve Jobs introduced it. and they're like, we have a great maps app and it's with our friends at Google, right? And then how did that work out? Right That they could, they moved everything off. They took got as much Google off of the R as they could as quick. But eventually, you know, the long story short, what happened was Google got Apple between a rock and a hard place where the maps that they had access to were bitmap maps. They were they were images that When you saled, they got pixelated and then you'd have to download smaller, you know, more more fine grained ones And the future of maps and what we all know now are vector maps like PDF's that scale And the big one, and you tell people this and it's like telling people that the original iPhone didn't shoot video. And they're like, Yes, it did. And you're like, no, it had a camera, but it did not even shoot video. And they're like, well, well, how did you shoot video? And you're like, let me tell you about you had a flip scam, of course.am M But people don't remember that maps didn't have turn by turn directions. You didn't say, here's where I want to go and then your phone told you where to go. it just drew it on a map like you had a paper map with a path mapped out And obviously that was the future. and it was the present if you were using Google Maps on Android phones. and Apple didn't have it. they didn't have a contractual right to it. And Google was asking Apple for more access to data and users location and the ability to sign into a Google account at the system level that Apple didn't want to give them Google thought, well, we've got them, you know, we'll play chicken with them because we kind of know where their own internal maps are at which is bad. So they're not going to switch to that and they'll comply with what we're asking. And instead Apple was like, well, we'll flip the switch and go with the maps that are not good because we got it we've got to we've got to make this switch. So I think I think Apple literally the actual leaders at the company were there when that happened. They remembered, you know, so I think that they are Moving ahead with a plan B that doesn't involve any help from Google and Gemini whenever this contract expires in a handful of years, so that if they need a plan B, they are already working on it. But I al like they're a little embarrassed to have to do this. But I also think it raises the question is why why did Google agree to help them this way Yeah, what does Google get out of it? It's a really good question because if they're basically saying that the most the largest tech company in the world needed AI services. Who did they come to? Of course, they came to Google And also also the experience that they're going to get in maturing Gemini through this, it is a win win win. I'm sure it's not a loss leader for Gemini, but it was just a win win win for both companies. always I think Apple had to go with Google for a variety of reasons. Remember, John Gan Andrea was still there for one thing. Right. But also You can go to open AI, but they don't they don't really have the capacity. You know, Google can both give you cloud capacity and a model You go to Amazon, they have the capacity, but they don't have the model. Right. You have to go through them to go to get clawed. And I mean, and I have no idea how the financials work. I imagine that that the Google Cloud division was very happy with whatever the results was for this and extending their usage. There is an analog to the maps story because Iage Playground was so go awful. So terrible. I still don't know Now it held. It prettyty much looks like nano banana. so there isn't like like we like we said last week, it's like you if you're looking for Gemini, again, it's like, did Barry Bonds take steroids at a certain time? No. I think there's a reason why he's suddenly three hundred pounds of muscle when he's smashing a baseball eight hundred There was no evolution of our image playground. It just I'm guessing that Gemini is a help.' a help helpful handy man in that one. Yeah No But I think Andy, I think youre you're right. I think Google agreed because I do think it's a feather in their cap. I'm sure that they made sure that the finances work out in their favor. I don't think they're making a huge amount of money because it's if it's even vaguely in the ballpark of a billion dollars That's not that much money to Google. Right Eespecially if you'reivingle twenty. But I think the feather in the cap of, hey, when Apple needed help and wanted the best models, who they go to, they went to Gemini. That That is a That's worth more than a billion dollars. That's worth more than the money to Google. And let's face it, I think it's a way to kneeca open AI and anthropic that hey, let's not let them get this position where Apple is going to give them they can build up this multi leg legged stool of revenue, actual revenue that they can count on Let's make a deal so that we get that position and they don't because Google is the company that already has serious revenue, enormous profits that are all growing in their existing business Why let their upstart competitors get deal like this and the prestige of working with Apple that this is who Apple went to Yeah E' because they're a public company. I think that goes a long way. Yeah. Why is that Because I think that for a lot of regulatory reasons for a lot of other spe specialally, when you're talking about dealing with things internationally and other stuff, like I don't know if you want to make this sort of deal with a startup. So I mean, look, let's look at exactly what happened with a Fable last week, right? Where the model is pulled. Now imagine that you were in a situation where you had based your foundation model on something that was then pulled that you're paying this money for and the government now says that this can't happen U for so many reasons that know I can't even get into, I can't conceive of Google ever being in a position that Anthropic was in last week and that they're still trying to kind of negotiate their way out of. I can't ever see Google being in that position. And not that I can see open AI being in that position as much, but Google They're a public company. They have dedicated people who are, you know, lobbyists to the government. They have, you know many, many, many more Tes employees. They've been around for, you know almost thirty years. L I think it's just if businesses, if you're going to make that sort of, you know investment, even if you don't plan on it lasting forever I don't know if you go with a startup I just don't does argue for Apple getting off Gemini as soon as possible though. they want to own their own destiny and they don't want to take any chances But but there's a fact that ties into all of this. all the things we've talked about for the past five minutes. I mean, there are a lot of companies that can make you make a satellite. There's only one or two companies that can give you the rocket that'll take that satellite where it need to go. and Google is one of those two companies right now. So John, you got a little cat fight with Mark. All right. Well according to knowledgeable people, he said that they would have plugins for other models. He turned out to be right, right? Apple didn't say they said a keynote No, they still, you don't think that's still a possibility. I thought we saw that in the qu. Oh, it's still a possibility, but it didn't happen at WWDC and it wasn't now is an IOS twenty seven feature. And the only extension that's there is ChadGPT, which has been there always two years Yeah. Well, it's been there since IOS eighteen, two years ago Um and is the case and they didn't number one, they didn't talk about that extension at all in the keynote. They didn't say anything like, hey, you can still use Chat GPT through Siri, even though you can Um, That's a good point. They didn't. And what German had reported was that they were going to build out, you know on that extension system, have a vetted list presumably clawed and Gemini. And Gemini, you know, you would think would be maybe the first next partner because they've collaborated with Google with the Gemini models for Apple's foundation models, right? So why not let Gemini in as an extension U that didn't happen. That's and the architecture might I think that's what Germman is still hanging his hat on that the architecture for those plugins is still there and the Chat GBT plugin is still there. But they didn't talk about it. and the Chat GBT integration doesn't get any of the access to your spotlight database. When you talk to Siri AI, what happened before the new Siri AI. So for the last two years, IOS eighteen and IOS twenty six. If you turned on the optional Chat GPT integration in Apple Intelligence and you asked Siri a question, which for Siri was a lot of questions It would automatically determine Oh, I can't answer that. I'm going to say, you know and by default it would say, I can't answer that. Would you like me to ask Chat GPT? Yes or no? And you'd say yes Or you can turn on a preference that said, automatically go to Chat GPT if you need to. And I turned that on and every time I've used Siri over the last two years, almost everything I've asked, it would go to ChadGBD because guess what? The built in Siri couldn't answer needed a lot of help. That no longer happens. If you turn on the Chat GPT integration When you interact with Siri, no matter what you ask it, it will never go to Chat GPT automatically chat chePT, you have to ask. Ask Chat Ch BT who won the Super Bowl in nineteen sixty nine You have to say askk Chat GPT. or if you're using the new app You have to go down to the bottom at the chat prompt where it says Ask Siri. And then you can tap that and it brings up a menu where you can change from askk Siri to askk chat GPT And then you can and then the prompt will say ask Chat GPT and you can type your query there. and it will ask Chat GPT. But it's almost to me like what is the point of it being there? It doesn't integrate with any of the app intense data that we were talking about, which is what makes Siri AI different. It doesn't have access. So and I've tested it. Apple said that it doesn't work I've said askk Chat GBT The exact same question, what did Tola tell me the doorcode to his building is? And Chat GPT says, I don't have access to your private data. I can't answer that And if you ask other questions like ask Chat GBT When was the last time Ben Thompson texted me? Well ChachyBT will know that it can't answer and will say asking Siri dot dot dot and then it switches back to Siri and Siri gives you the answer. So it actually works the other way Where for two years, if you asked Siri a question it couldn't answer and you had permitted it, it would ask Chat GPT instead. Now, when you're using the Siri app, if you ask Chat GPT some questions that relate to your personal information, it'll ask Siri and switch you to Siri. That'. So what exactly is the point of these extensions at this point If you want to use Chat GBT, use the app. If you want to use Gemini, use the Gemini app. It's good, you know. and then it it integrates with the rest of the Gemini system on the web and on other devices and other platforms and all that, it doesn't really make any sense to me. And my guess and I asked off the record, I asked on the record and they were like, we're not gonna to talk about that. You know, you know how Apple is. But what I asked is is the chat GPT integration that is still there, Is that because of the contract that you're contractually obligated because it was a three year deal or maybe a four year deal or a five year deal, who knows And is that why Chap GBT a couple of months ago was like, Hey, we're thinking about filing a breach of contract law with Apple Yeah Is that related to this and they're like we're not going talk about But that's what my guess is. My guess is the only reason Chat GPT is even there as an option is that three years ago when they made this deal, it was at least a three year contract. And who knows, if it's still there next year, it might be four. But I would say there's almost no reason to use this integration at this point. Yeah. Do you think companies like Notion who have their own AI will still use those app intents to give Siri access to your nototion database or are they going to say, no, no, we want to be a silo That's going to be a big question is how many third party apps Yeah, that integrate. That is going to be the question. And I don't know. I think it's probably going to be on an app by app basis and depends on how much An app like Notion, maybe not. because I don't know how often, I mean, obviously a lot of people use it for note taking things but they've already pivoted into enterprise and kind of, you know I don't know if they if their primary goal is like, oh, we want to keep people creating personal notes on their phones. I'm not sure. Whereas I hope that that Gmail, I mean you already could if you added a Gmail account just in the messages app, you could still access things that way. But I would hope that Gmail and some of the other mail providers would add access to that. It's interesting when you look in the app intense developerortal like page on the developer portal the examples they give are how to use it with a stream with a music service, how to integrate it in with a messaging app, how to integrate it in with There there were a couple of other examples, but it was interesting to see the examples that they'd chose because I think that's telling of, okay, we know that there are these are the types of providers that people will expect to get things from. And this is the one part of it that whether you're all in kind of the Google ecosystem or the Apple ecosystem Heck, I guess even the Samsung ecosystem is willill you actually be able to do everything you want to do from all of your devices or are you still going to have to rely on using multiple AIs? And unfortunately, I think that the dream of just being able to have like, I think, at least on a phone, I think on a desktop, it's much different, but on a phone, I think that we're probably going to be stuck at least for a little bit of time if not forever, having to You know, realize that we still live in data silos.. And of course, there will inevitably be a phone from open AI or phanthropic or someone else, right? And they will then be like, please give it, please connect us all your data. That is sort of the one interesting wrinkle here, which I think Apple's a little bit unique on as being an outlier, is that you can already connect you know your Microsoft three hundred and sixty five account, your Google Docs account, your Gmail account, a lot of other third party accounts, manyany times your Notion account to services like ChatBT and to Claud. they already have those abilities to plug in. like that's how cl cork works, right? And and so I think that it what I am sort of curious about and I'm sure the answer is no, but like would Apple ever allow you to connect you know your Apple mail or your iCloud, not sending your messages, I'm not saying everything else. I'm not trying to get crazy to one of those services to be able to surface those things. You'll never see, I don't think Oh, I don't think you everver. I don't think you ever will but I'm just pointing out that is one of the things that puts them a little bit behind is that the way that all of this works so great is that everything is in the Alem. But the second you step out even a little bit, It starts to fall apart. And if you're already using multiple things anyway, I do think that that lessens That's Ale. But but I love. I love the mechanism that John just explained. you can explain it to me further. if it's a more fundamental thing, but the idea of it's there was remember the day when If if you had a worord processor, you had to all your documents could only be used by that worord processor and you could not use it with not even a different worord processor on the Mac, let alone on another platform. we're in the risk of having that same problem with all these AIs because I use two or three different AIs for two or three different purposes. Gemin is my general purpose one It's my personal system, so it has all the subtle information about me. Claude knows about my programming projects and things like that. I would love it if I had if I switch back to iPhone or if I wanted to use Siri AI on my iPad I can make a request of Gemini. Gemini knows that, okay, I don't have access to that information. let me ask S. I could pass it off and it came dash the pass. That cool. Siri tells me that there was an I message about this. and because basically I've told I've had them me I got the pizza and donoughuts in the break room, they had a meet and greet, so they trust each other That seems like such a natural way for these things to get along with each other. because like I suggested before, I don't begrudge Apple for saying that look, we're not going to let just any AI or any app have the same level of access that we're going to give our own products because we have we put more security and more demands on our own software than any would than we can ask of any developer But the idea of having, look, I trust this Gemini person. Don't let Gemini don't if Gemini wants to delete everything that's in my docs directory, don't let them. But basically they're going to make reasonable requests for information that only you Siri has That's kind of a dream And to be clear, that what I was describing is how it works when you're in the Siri app and switch to ask chat GPT in there. So those things don't show up when I go back to the chat GPT app which is my main app. There's no record of the interactions that were handed off to Siri But I had the same thought as you, Andy, that this could be the future. And the way the vague way that I could see Apple implementing this would be like way that protect your photo library now where if you're in any third party app and you want to access a photo from your photo library, the system picks up pops up a picker And you can say I only want to give this app these five recent images, check, check, check check, check share these and then the app sees those images. So like I'm imagining something like that, but for anything Siri can surface. So you're in the Gemini app and you're asking a question that would query device private information And it would say, oh, let me ask Siri And then Siri would pop up a system picker be like, here's the answer. Do you want to share this with Gemina Yeah. you see the answer. It's in a system picker And if you say no then Gem and I just didn't get it. just like if it brings up the system photo picker and you just decide, yeah, I changed my mind. I'm not going to send it any images. You were looking at them in the picker that gives you their permission. but if you say no, then the app doesn't see any of your pictures. doesn't know which ones just came up that you were looking at It could be the exact same with answers from Siri and you're like, you know, then you could see, oh, Siri's gonna to share those text messages. Oh, those are fine. Those aren't really private. Sure. Sare those with Gemini. and then Gemini would get that information I think that would be fabulous. and that's the sort of interoperability that really does hark back to Apple Script, right where It's it's like, o, this is, it's not just willilly nilly an app pokes about and deconstructs the file format for a word perfect for DOS decconstructed, it's on its own. Here's a dictionary. open it up. H's it ins there. Yep. Here's a dictionary that tells you what you can what structured information you can expect And to go back to Leo's question from a couple of minutes ago, I think notion in particular is a really interesting example because Apple called them out in the keynote for switching to Swift UI for their native interface that they're going to switch out some cross platform, probably web based stuff that they've been doing for their userser interface and using Swift UI for the iPad and iPhone And maybe the Mac too, I actually don't know, but it could be because Swift UI works on them all calling Notion out. There weren't very many there never are many third party companies that get a call out at WWDC. Notion got a particularly high profile one. So I wouldn't be surprised if they're also saying to them, hey, while you're switching toitch Swift UI, how about you do the app intense thing? And I think the other thing that Christina didn't mention earlier is and I don't know what the difference is, but there's also app schema And the schema is like the dictionary that defines the structure of the information you're providing And so like the schema would be notion, I think Fing here's the dictionary that describes a notion note. And the app intent is the actual API that would be the flow of information to outside. So I would be surprised if Notion does this because I also think that what people would ask of Siri AI of their information in their notion database, whether it's personal stuff or work stuff isn't at all duplicating the AI that Notion has built into the app itself for complex workflows and stuff like that It's one of these ways like Everything is becoming a computer, right? Your watch is a computer. My headphones are two little computers right now in my ear. Most of the light switches in my house now are little computers Everything is going have AI to some degree. There's going to be little bits of. There might be one main one that you use for like, oh, when I'm like spending hours working on an AI project, like a big programming project, this is my AI system. I use Codex or whatever you use There will be little pieces of AI everywhere And I think Siri isn't little, but it is sort of superficial. It's just like, let's just cover the basics and kind of Fulfill the promise of Siri from twenty ten, right? I mean, that's basically what Siri twenty twenty seven is And Epics My question is is will they do an agent? because that's basically what an agent would do is represent you to all of the other AIs and datas systems out there in the world S How going that I going back to that tech talk, they definitely poopooed it for now. They didn't want to Federici at that tech talk was like, you guys are talking about agents. And I think it was a great answer where it was sort of We're doing one thing first, right? And that's just getting this stuff to work. And we think agents, you know, have a bright future, but that's ahead of us. R. And I think that's a great I think that is such a humble answer from Apple and Yeah, people who listen to MacBreak Weekly, people who are on MacBreak Weekly are all in on agents and doing these agentic things with with AI But most people out there are not. Yeah But good quest start going on Nitty. I'll say it very quickly One of the most exciting things about Google IO about features on Android was just the ability of, oh, you want a widget to do a certain task, describe it. I willll give you that widget. and it will work on a phone, it'll work on a watch, it'll work on the desktop that hopefully we can entice you into buying at the end of the year. The great things move forward when the person who's buying their phone at the Verizon store and the AT and T store you know, the people off the street, when they understand how to do things just simply by describing it where I don't have to where you have a tool like Gemini Sparks and I do not have to buy a Mac mini and figure out how to run open cl and it is Geminiz agent, I might point out. Yeah And'' it's And so that that's why like Apple that's why I so agree with you, John. That was such a perfect thing. They they were a little bit snarky at a couple points during the main keynot. But but that was exactly the right answer that look, we're not there yet. We'' we got we we can find you Boston on a map with our seri and we're very happy that it can There's a risk though that I mean, they're still behind All they announced really is catch up to what's happen time They do have times But no all I was going to say is when we talk about agents and and I think it's a fine answer and it's a true answer, right? You should be honest about it. We're not there yet I think though if you look at the third party app developers who already have in many cases, a contentious relationship with Apple because Apple goes out of their way to not make things easy on them, right? Like let's just be honest. manyany of them have already invested time like Notion, for instance, That's a great point, John. I didn't know I didn't recall that they were even shouted out during the keyne, but that's great. It's great. they put some swift UI things and the OS and iPad app. And yeah, maybe that'll even come to the map. We'll see. But like but Nion already has MCP servers and they already have agent frameworks. they already have agents that are integrated right now Now if they're going to work, whether it's with through a schema or appent or whatever, if they're having to do additional work, I'm not saying they won't. What I am saying is that This is not the same universe that we were five years ago, even where app developers are going to be jumping at their feet to jump through whatever hoops Apple wants of them to go into, you know to have their systems integrated. you have to you have to make it compelling to them somehow. And that's the part that I think, you know, we can look to toivision Pro as you know, a proof that Just because Apple puts out a new system doesn't mean everyone is going to build it, they may not come Exactly. And so especially when there are already known you know frameworks and systems for how things work. and like Apple's going to make you do it just a little bit differently. ot saying companies won't do it. many of them will, and I hope that they do. but we can't pretend like there's not an opportunity cost and there's not even real know maintenance costs for those companies to support those things. When you don't know, okay, well, why am I bothering with this when I already have an agent framework and I can already do these things. Why just so somebody could it would be better for their for Apple's overall ecosystem for me for me to be able to surface, you know my data from notion, but what's int it for notion Yeah I got toa take a break. I wish wayay behind this conversation. is too interesting, but we will continue on. I mean, this is very interesting. It's great to have John Gruber in the house. First time on Mac Break Weekly I don't know how we've managed to miss you for so long, but we're so glad to have you. We quote you pretty much every week from daringfireball. net Christina Warren from GitHub Andy Anako from Anato. com ourur show today brought to you by Pebble. hiring fast is one thing, hiring fast and staying across different countries, That's where things can get tricky The pebble helps solve that tension P E B L Peble makes global hiring simple through embedded compliance A AI driven workflows, the pebbble platform takes the delays in guesswork out of going global. So founders And HR leaders can move fast without adding risk, hiring abroad It could take months when you do it on your own Peble You can hire in over one hundred and eighty five countries and you can do it in minutes and have your new hire on boarded by Monday. 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Pebble's normally three hundred and ninety nine dollars a month per employee frankly already a no brainer for what you get, but right now There is a limited time offer on their site that makes it even easier started Go to high pebble. Ai before it's gone. That's high PEBL ot AI terms and conditions apply Hi pebble A hundred and eighty five plus Pase. U I want to get more into that agetic thing, but I think we have to move. We haven't new three hours on that yah. Yeah, I mean Well it's only getting more and more interesting, which is the fun and the tragedy of this show sometimes. Yeah. well and and this is, you know bullish about what Apple's done because it does make all this easy and straightforward for a normal user But I'm also very aware that more and more people like Christina and me are using A Jenson or are doing a lot of stuff that Apple probably won't ever do because They cross these silo barriers and fortunately, at least right now People are making MCP servers, they're making APIs and SDKs are making it possible to do this so that we can create agents that know everything about us privately and can integrate with the outside world. securely and that's a very powerful proposition that Apple probably won't ever. Well, I don't my opinion is just that all Apple has to do is make sure that they we don't it doesn't wind up in a situation where wheng when Google Photos first got its AI regenerative editing tools And I could say, oh, well, I didn't this dog in the background, I didn't is like urinating against a tree. and it's kind of ruining this beautiful picture of my mom and my sister's circle it, say erase it, erases and fills it with And every time I would show that to somebody, iPhone usually say, why doesn't my phone do that And that's the sort of thing that Apple does not want to ever happen. That's the sort of thing that Google does not wantna ever happen. For someone to see someone one of their friends or family members doing something, really slick, really useful that would they can immedately recognize this will simplify my life. It will solve problems or create opportunities for me Why doesn't my phone do that? And so so long as Apple can stay ahead of that problem, I think they're okay. And again, they hopefully they're being humble enough to realize that they didn't say that, oh, we think that agents are the wrong way to go and there' security nightmares. And it's part of a reflection of how smart and how responsible we are that we're not talking about agents I'm very, very relieved that they're saying, yeah,'s a great thing. We're not there yet I do think they'll get there so long as they get there at a good pace with reliable feature that people are expecting at the time when people are finally expecting to get this whenever they take the rarapper off a new phone Apple doesn't want, and this is why they're not in the EU, interoperability. They really they really like that ecosystem lock in U the the issue with the EU is the Digital Markets Act, the DMA, which says things should be interoperable And Apple is of course, never going to be inter. We just talked about it. They're not going to interoperate Siri AI with anthropic. Well sometimes that mean they'll never be in Europe Or is you going to give in Don't think on this on this issue, I don't think Apple's going to give in Because this is this is there are areas in which I do think Apple's just being dumb. Okaykay, by not allowing a thir by not allowing a non Apple watch to have access to notifications and other simple things. They're so simple and that are in full control of the user saying, I trust this, I trust Garmin, I trust Pixel, I trust Samsung. Please Apple, please let them have access to actable actionable notifications That's Apple being dumb and being isolationist and trying to protect their monopoly or whatever. However, when it comes to something as profound as the pipeline of communication of all of your personal information through AIs They are making a very good point that this is an area in which, yeah, it is unfair. It actually is unfair to these other companies, but you can't be this is a line they don't want to cross when it comes to privacy. And don't I wish that they would come up with a way that would satisfy both the need for interoperability as well as the privacy and security of the data for their users However, in this case, I'm hoping that they're going to err on the side of privacy and security for the. And John, you point out that losing you is not the worst thing in the world. There are only about seven percent of Apple's world revenue. So mayaybe, you know,'s for A Yeah, but I think that that's probably a good measure overall because why would the app store be lower than their overall revenue? I mean, it's possible that Europeans by high end Max stududios that they never connect to the app store at a higher rate than elsewhere. I mean, they're very rec possible. They look, but beautiful. I don't know. But you believe that Apple could leave the Leave Syria out of the EU forever I do. I really And I think that was the gist of Apple's rather strident Yeah News pretty clear on the keynote day and as I emphasize They've their're public statements regarding the DMA and Regulation around the world have always been rather diplomatic. It's such a perfect word for the tone they strike in public which I think is the proper tone to take And then off the record when they have briefings for the media about this, they they They don't use curse words, they don't cuss about it, but you can see them thinking about the cs words off the record.s of are somewhere on Apple Camp. They do hold out hope though. That newsroom piece did say Siri delayed. They didn't say denied. Well, but but it would take the gist that I got from it and from they had a very I think there were a couple instances of it, but I was in a briefing last week at Apple Park the day after the keynote. Um a bunch of other people from the media. And the gist that they laid out There is If the If the European Commission doesn't change its mind on this, I don't think Ale I don't think this version of Apple intelligence and Siri AI will ever come to the EU And I said it's a much smaller feature, but iPhone mirroring is now two years old instead I said it's because Apple wants to preserve their lock in, but they say it's a security issue. You could say that with iPhone mirror. I think it's both. Yeah. C I can I also say thatle although I'm on Apples side here, Apple does have the responsibility to not just say trust us, bro. they have to bring forward here are the technical reasons why and we will allow third parties to look at this white paper we've written ust us on this we are not just being we're not just trying to force people to we're not giving the answer of, we'd really love your mom to buy an iPhone and replaceplace their Android phone. There really are actual reasons that we have argued inside our own with within our own institutions. They went the trouble of designing something they called the trusted system agent appease the EU and the EU and Apple did not agree to any of Apple's proposals. However, given the clear dangers to EU users and regulators' failure to acknowledge these risks, there's currently no timeline for SIAIs availability in. got it was cheeky if they asked for an eighteen month extension. It was like o. It's totally cheeky and that is gotten a lot of attention. And I think, you know, and I have people saying that well, that's clearly contrary that's outside the law of the DMA. They can't they can't offer an extension like that. R. And I get it. But as I understand it, and again, this is odd background briefing. I wish that they would publicize all of this. but My understanding is At a first level, Apple asked And I think they have a case The DMA doesn't say that this is against the DMA, that they could ship this version of Apple intntelligence and Siri AI in the EU and to have the European Commission deem it as not being against the interoperability requirements of the DMA There's nothing the DMA is very vaguely written to say the least, where there's certainly nothing in there that mentions AI or LLMs in particular. And this is where Apple and Google are in complete alignment where Google just went ahead and shipped the integrated Gemini in Android in the EU and now they're facing an in Korea or whatever they call it Um, where the EU said, oh, that's not allowed you know, So Google took the Do it first and ask forgiveness tactic and Apple took the let's ask before we ship it. was told no, that would not be compliant For example, and I asked people at Apple this and at first they had some answers, but when I asked and said, what's No, explain this. They were they kind of started thinking and were like, yeah, I don't know, which is how is the current ser, the current seri, the one that you get today in Iowa twenty six, How is that compliant with the DMA? You can't replace that with a third party. There's no other option to get the side button on your iPhone to go to a different voice assistant The only difference between Old Siri and New Siri is that New Siri works, but in terms of what it tries to do, it's the exact same thing. So I don't see how oldld Siri is compliant with the DME either Um It's a it's a I think Apple and Google have a good case And Apple signed like I forget what they call it in the EU, but it's like we've asked for comments and Apple submitted their own comments in support of Google. in the EU that hey Apple wants them is saying to the EU, what Google is doing with Gemini in Android should be permitted under the DMA. Not that we want you to change the DMA or add a specific extension to it or an amendment to allow this under the DMA as written, law of the land in the EU, this should not violate it. That's the first ask. and clearly the European Commission disagreed. They're say Gemini's existing integration in Android is non compliant. SiriAI, as announced last week at WWDC, would be non compompliant in the EU Second, Apple went to them with the trusted system agent proposal working code, it is a but they sent engineers You know, it wasn't just marketing people, it was engineers who had designed the outline of it sent them to Brussels to present this six months ago. U, which is ly we all know and Apple emphasized this in the briefing. Highly unusual for Apple to tell anybody anywhere in the world what they're doing six months ahead of time But they went and said, hereere's our plans for AI and Siri H is a proposal A, we think it should be compliant as is, but if it's not, here is our next plan, which would be to build this trusted system agent. Unfortunately, I don't the briefing did not include any kind of technical description of what that actually is or what it would be like. But apparently it's pretty pretty big proposal. And Apple estimated that it would take eighteen months to build wanted the European Commission to say, if you built something like that, it would probably be compliant or it would be compliant And then Apple would go ahead and commission the engineering work to build it And what they with the eighteen month period that they were asking is, and if you allow the trusted system agent How about you give us an extension and let us ship what we have now while we're building it That was like the last thing on the list And I don't think Apple really thought they were going to say yes to that. I think Apple was hoping they would either just say yes. New Siri is compliant just like oldld Siri was except it works Um be, if they said no to that, that they would say, okay, this trusted system agent sounds like a good plan. If you could build something and here's our suggestions to the outline. Go ahead and build it and however long itakes, you know, hurry up, but you know, when that's ready, you can ship in the EU What happened is the EU said to Apple with that proposal We don't judge proposals Go build it and then come to us with code and we'll tell you With this one, Apple is saying, it is such a major project. What off the know or on background, Apple described it as in their estimation be more engineering work on Appleide than all of the other things they've built for DMA compliance to date combined. The browser engine kit the alternate app store support, the alternate payment support, all the other stuff that they've already built for DMA compliance This project would be more than all of that combined and they don't want to do that and then find out after they've done it that it still isn't compliant That's why what they wanted was for the EU to say, build that and it'll be compliant and they wouldn't do it And so that's where things stand. where That's why Apple can't even say, we think eighteen months from now, maybe we could have something because they're not even sure that they're going to go ahead and build it like That's good. know. Why build it? Yeah, so this is it's interesting because as you say, the DMA is so vaguely written that it's up to the regulators to interpret it. Apple calls the EU regulators' interpretation extreme They say Apple would have to give any virtual assistant direct access to users' private data and the ability to directly control other installed applications And I agree with Apple, that is a nonstarter. I, you know, that's clearly an issue Um I wouldn't want Apple to do that easither. whether I was in the U or here that no third party AI should have access to all of that information. And And this is where I'm doubly sorry that Apple plays that card so frequently that, oh, well, we cant allow we can we can't allow third party third party developers to link outside to their own websites because that would be a compromise of of customer privacy and security. and we will absolutely we're going to take a stand against that Yeah. they've overpayed coverage. Yeah And so when they when it actually when it actually is a valid argument That's why I say o. Well, now it's time you hear's the is finally in this case, it's completely it's completelyal. But I'm a big interoperability fan. I'm a big open systems fan. I But in this case, I completely understand why Apple doesn't want to do that. So I wouldn't things are true. It's unfair to third parties and it's necessary for securities. Sometimes both those things are absolutely true. Yeah. Let's move on to some other topics besides Siri AI. There's a little battle going on. I'm wondering if John has any inside information about whether the folding phone that has not yet been announced will be shipped this year. Or later, some some rumors say it will have to be in twenty twenty seven. One rumor mill adamantly says, no, no, it's coming out this year. What do you know about this, John? I know nothing.'ve other people, I've gotten out of that game of trying to figure out what hardware iss coming. I don't know it either ust so not talking to anybody at Apple, but just reading the rumors. It's the people who seem to get it right. I think it's about as close to a lock as possible that it's coming And I think it's just the The sheer scale of iPhones and even iPhones that aren't popular compared to the others, like let's say this year the iPhone air, which clearly was not a smash hit. It's still, they've sold so many iPhone airs that I don't think there was any way to keep its existence under wraps a year ago at this time Um And I think again, let's just assume and I think it's probably a fair assumption that this iPhone that folds, which I'll I think they'll probably call iPhone ultra, but who knows folding iPhone is probably going to be the most expensive iPhone because the folding mechanisms, disisplays are always among or the most expensive components Folding screens are more expensive than non folding screens. And canan I say sidebar, Motorola, which is the king of budget of incredibly good phones that are incredibly cheap They they introduced their first folding phone and it was one hundred dollars cheaper than a Samsung foldable. That's how expensive that component is that even Motorola cannot track fifteen hundred dollars. Right. whose brand is sort of a high quality phone at a lower price. So let's say it's super expensive It's still, you know, it doesnn't going to sell in high quantities. Maybe they don't think they're going to make manyoney. It's going to be hard to get for Christmas, whatever The rumors are so strong and the clues at WWDC were like, hey, you can make extra widescreen apps in the iPhone mirroring app You know, just in case, you know, if you're wondering what these you want to run the simulator and see what your iPhone app would look like if it were suddenly and unexpectedly made wider. They spent some time in the X code session talking about responsive displays. Yeah. It's pretty clear where it's headed. They're not I'm amazed they have been able to say it with a straight face without any little winks or nudges but it's pretty clear what's going Well, I hope that that's the case Um Apparently Samsung has u is actually starting to manufacture the touchscreens for the new Mac book Ultra which implies that it might even be available sooner than later. Yeah I think there was two weeks ago that there was some supp supply and chain reporters said that Samsung was targeting a ninety percent yield rate and they achieved that. And so that meant that it was viable for this contract to go forward or something like that. Yeah And also people who are using, I don't know if you've used this John, but who is using continuity on the iPad. I've never I can never get these individual features But basically side sidec sidec sidecar now responds to touch on the iPad, which which it might be significant. It might not because I thought that well, why wouldn't it do that from there in two thousand, you could buy like a touchs screen on that you could add on so that you could actually touch as a USB mouse pointer But yeah, that's there's a lot of snow on the ground and a lot of footprints in that snow All right, that's pretty much it on the rumors as far as I can tell here. So maybe we should do the long awaited and much vaued Vision Pro segment. know It's time to talk you don't have to. But we wouldn't have a Vision Pro segment if it weren' for Annie Anako who found the one Vision P story today Apple pig with a truffle baby. You snurfled it out belelow that tree over there. Apple help Vision Pro help Disney reengineer a classic EpCot ride apppparently best EpCot ride Which one is that? What's your best Sorin Sorin is fun.in Sorin is a great right. That's what they use it for. Sin is actually freaking excellent. So that's the one where you sit in these seats and they bring it's like hang gliding I was originally over California, but I think Soren now is every Sorn across America. Yeah. Sn University of Un And they have putty as your pilot and you go flying. So that's good U Are we going to get sorn on the Vision Pro is the question See, that that's what I've always thought. like that would be a killer feature of the Vision Pro to be honest. would either be to like like the Avatar ride at Animal Kingdom or Sorein. like these are the sorts of things where when I first used the Vision Pro, I went Okay I don't want one of these things to sit on my face all the time, but this would be fantastic either on a ride or to recreate a ride. Like I could see in both scenarios. likeike if you could get it durable enough have them actually, you know, have individuals be able to use them on the ride itself because the screens are much better than what you're typically getting on those experiences. Or yeah, like let's recreate Sin at home. likeike that Or even just the ride content. J just yesterday, some I was watching the the Simpsons motion ride We're basically man The Simpsons crew basically wrote an entire episode of the Simpsons starting with the videos you watch while you're waiting in line. And then when you get to the three D environment, like you're in the car, it's a continuation with all these jokes that are going through. and it's like, it's free. It's already there. just again, don't don't don't make I don't have to like have the whole thrill ride but. I want to watch when I was watching this where suddenly like, hey, right through my mouth. I want to see I want to see what that' gonna be like to wr in dther. It's funny because that one made me nauseous, but then I went across the hall two of the flying broomsticks at the Harry Potter thing And I love that both of them being put on a helmet, but the Simpsons are an older one Yeah sitting in a littleion three D. Yeah the Sstance one' like twenty years old now at this point, which is really, really. You know, it's not really as bad as you think because they say you can put your back backack on the shelf in the cart here and it will be safe. But the on the on the Hogwarts ride, you're sitting on a saddle and you're moving around. it's really it's And I did not get nauseated. I just I just think it's a shame when you have all this content that was built so beautifully, so seriously, sometimes by Francis Fort Copla, by George Lucas, by the Muppets by Jim Henson. And the thing is like if they decide to shut down the ride, one of the end jokes in the Simpsons ride is that it replaced the the back to the future and the opening is basically how how how doctor Frank is responsible for the destruction of And it's like the thing is like it's I think that anything that's been created with such care shouldn't be allowed to die if there's a way to preserve it. I agree. And if there's a way to simply take that stuff and say, look, five bucks or just You know what? we're looking the other way, just like that just like Apple does with a whole bunch of like old old old ROMs like you know what? we're not going to litigate this. We can't give permission, but we are not opposed to people running Apple Works on another system. And I hope that turns out It really is the sort of thing those these rides are preservable in an immersive way that like just all right, we'll send a guy through with a camera. He' not And the Simpsons one, I've been on that many times. It is it is oddly immersive for a thing that just kind of dips you up and down a little But it's like a little but for the most part though, it really would transfer very well. You would get no motion. But you would get something that a flat rectangular version of wouldn't. Yeah Yeah. Are you a vision proro fan? John, I don't know I am in an odd place where I'm A booster of the future prospects of the platform and I barely use the one that I have over here like to a degree that every single time I want to use it, the battery is empty. And then I think I'm going to get another plug. I'm going to put I have a whole socket of or a whole wall of outlets over here to this side desk. And I'm going to have a dedicated charger just for my Vision Pro. And then eventually I'll have some other gadget that needs to charge. and I'll be like, oh, I'll use that one I'm using for the Vision Pro. and then my Vision Pro expires. So no. But I will say this too. The other thing I do and I've done it I think three years in a row is my WWDC live talk show. We live stream Yeah with that im. Yeah. Yeah, with sandwich And then we have a higher quality viety. It might be coming out later today actually, where you can go to the sandwich theater app and u and watch it in three D. And I really thought like three years ago when we first did it, I was like, well, this is like one of the first events live streamed immersively by next year I didn't think that this product was going to be a hit. I was like, but there will be more events including probably from Apple that are live streamed for the people who do have one. stillill just me What what surprised me is that they didn't, I know they can't necessarily like launch a YouTube for immersive experperiences, but I thought that look, you've got this thing with all these cameras on it I'm sure that people will want to like make their own three D experiences, even if it's just that, hey, look, here what was here's what we was like at OzFest this year and I've got ten minutes worth of video and I'll be able to post it and share it with somebody. That would have been that would have been exciting. W would have been it wouldn't have justified three thousand five hundred dollars, but four hundred eight dollars of that. Yeah, that might have justified it if it had taken off. You do get a lot of credit for a do Do the talk show in a Vision Pro with Adam Lissagor. I think that that that for two and a half hours. Yes, that's above and beyond That was the longest podcast I've ever recorded. Maybe not I thought if I felt it. Yeah. How until the lines around your forehead, whatever I was gonna say like a whole I think like last week, I don't know. it was a very long talk. You can watch that on YouTube as well as this week's talk the talk show. And then if you have a Vision proro U You need the Sandwich TV app, right to watch the talk show in your sandwich theaterre huh? Jand look for theater. That's it. yeep. U And that, well, we got some extra content in there. is your Vision Pro? know we're done talking the Vision Pro. You're watching Mac Break Weekly with It's wonderful. I'm. John Gruber, the leegendary John Gruber from Gruber from Daringfireball. net Andy Inaco and Christina Warren A couple of other stories, the UK government I thought I actually was very impressed with Apple's announcement of their child prrotection features They want as you call as you mentioned the parental what do they call parentalnt control features parental controls, which I didn't know, but you told me or you mentioned on the talk show are actually developers thinking about their parents original. This gives it a whole new meaning. But I was very impressed. I was especially impressed with the defaults. I thought that that was exactly the right way parental controls. and I think maybe in pass and around the governmental restrictions that are coming not just in Australia and in many U.S. States, but now in the UK, I don't know if it's going to be enough. The U.K has announced they're going to ban social media F under sixteen s God actually Neili said he didn't think this is going to be enough to keep the government out of The uh iPhone business. I really liked what Apple did, and I think it's much better to let the parents control it governments hundred percent I can't imagine how of all the things, if the fact that YouTube is included inside that ban, you're basically imagine us at in the mid eighties and saying, by the way NBC and ABC networks do not. You will not be able to access either of those two networks because the amount of content that kids get through YouTube is like know how they're going to enforce that. basically that has to be a first step towards. Oh, and by the way, VPNs are also banned within the UK. I was going to say you don't enforce this because any the kids are going to figure out ways around it. And I mean, especially for things like YouTube, I mean maybe, okay, you try to make it so onerous that that nobody, you know, the companies to put in completely, in my opinion, Draconian tests to try to find out userers age, which you're completely defeating the point of any sort of privacy thing. And now these companies are collecting information that you really don't want them to have because it's not like they have secure servers or that they don't resell that data or anything else I don't know. I mean, I think that all this stuff is just deeply, deeply pressing. Yeah. Pier Starmer announced it'll happen as soon as next year, u, Ely next year We' ban Snapchat, TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook and X Messaging apps like WhatsApp and Signal will not be banned Romantic companion chat bots willll be banned if you're under eighteen Yeah keepep us apart. M and Sheila are in love fake to you, but it's real to us. As will. and I don't know what this means. I'll have to ask a Brit, intimate functionalities will also be also be banned for those under eighteen. Yeah, this is is that domain available Intimate functionality. So no way. There's This is why the birth rate is dropping in the in Britain. I just want to say funct. So Apple obviously would like to get ahead of this Is what they're doing enough Probably not I I believe that governments are just going to go right ahead and do it I keep turning back to the comparison. I think I said this on stage too, but to the government's approach to end end encryption where they'll say They don't understand it technically. and they have a good use case where okay, what if there are two pedophiles exchanging CSAM. Why can't you give law enforcement just the good guys a back dooor to their end to end encryption And people you, explain to them that it defeats the definition of end to end encryption. There's no way to have a back door just for the good guys. You can't do it. And what the government bureaucrats who don't understand it herear is what they hear, I think, is Oh, that's a lot of work that you don't want to do. It's hard. We'll just mandate it and then you can use your nerd powers and make it happen. Yeah. And I call that the nerd harder.. Yes. Eactly. And I really do think and with the end to end encryption, it's a little bit simpler to understand because you understand, there's an end to end encrypted chat between me and Andy is just between us. And if we add Christina and we have a group chat We understand that these communications are only going between our three devices And you can kind of understand that and adding a third another party, law enforcement or just bad guys breaking the circle of trust Parental controls is a little more nebulous because some of these things are like, oh, I just don't want my kids spending time playing Roblox or something. But But could Apple has the functionality, the ability, Apple knows, Google knows how old you are. They have the functionality built in. Apple has the age intent where I say what really is this user and it would all be implemented through the gatekeepers. So some of this is possible. someome of it's possible, but I think some of it comes down to the bureaucrats and the politicians wanting to say, we'll just make them nerd harder and have parents be able to say, oh, great, thanks to this law that makes Apple and Google and meta and everybody else nerd harder, now my kid isn't doing anything inappropriate or spending time in places I don't want them spending time on their devices. And that's That's magical thinking and it's just not going to happen Yeah. But you know, I think some of these controls do seem better. And I think some of them, the knock is that a lot of what Apple announced last week isn't actually new. It's actually been there. But like Joanna said on stage with me, like it just didn't work I mean and so it's like, okay, the features that we've had now they actually work So if that's the difference, maybe that makes, you know, it just doesn't absolve parents though from needing to take some significant amount of responsibility for what their kids are doing on devices.. No,s who but that's who should be taking responsibility Yeah my opinion. R. And I think you can mandate that. you know, you could say, hey, if you set up your device as a child device then they have to get permission from the parent to say, use a VPN. And if the parent says, No, I don't even know what a VPN is, no. that I like the functionality where the kid would say can I go to this site and the parent gets a pop up on their phone? That's new, isn't it? That seems. I think so sure. Yeah. And if it's not, it was so buried that nobody could ever write. It never happened. Right. Which was the issue before. I think the secondary issue was that you had third party companies who were trying to build these better tools before like what Apple introduced, which I agree with Leo, I think is great that existed. and then they were very limited in how much And there were privacy issues. there were also whichich makes total sense, right? But like MDM Well, you would have to do that. yeah. But like there were a number of different, you know, companies who were trying to do those sorts of things and you couldn't really do that unless you You know, no, Apple should do it but Google should do it. Yeah. That's that's who should do it U And, you know, people say, well, the kid will figure out a way around it. Oh yeah, the kids aren't going to figure out a way around a social media ban in the UK. Kids will figure out a way around it, sure. Yeah, it's just like with alcohol and tobacco sales right? you know, does twenty one year old age limit mean that nobody in any of, you know, United States or United Kingdom or any of these countries is drinking alcohol or smoking cigarettes before they turn twenty one? No, but do the laws greatly decrease how often that happens? Yes. well, that's a win. And if you're waiting for perfection, no kids accessing anything inappropriate or spending more time than their parents think doing X, Y and Z, you're going to be waiting forever I think the difference though with like alcohol laws, for instance, versus what they're doing in the UK is that there's not a database held every time I go to the liquor store and buy a p and then I have to give them my ID and now it's stored on their server someplace. But now because I'm an adult, if I'm in the UK, I now have to verify and give my ID to somebody who I don't trust at all I don't trust any in the UK government. I don't trust anyone of those companies to have a copy of my identification on their servers. I sure don't So thanks a lot, guys. You've now created like an even worse honey pot for everybody who is of age to get hacked and have their identity stolen. L conratulations. my real my fear with this fable thing is At some point, you're going to have to proof of citizenship So you use the top AI models. That's not going to be a good thing That is not going to be a good thing. I'll tell you what is a good thing for Apple TV Fox just Fku. Before we move on. Oh, sorry. I have an update. I did check Innoentfunctionalities d. com is not available because I just bought it. Congratulations. Congratulations, Anie. I've doneom. Fantastic. Did you get that on that as well? Because, you know, you're not a commercial enterprise Very good Fox has purchased Roku, the streaming service for twenty five billion dollars. Wow. I immediately saw a number of people asking on Reddit. what's the next best streaming devks. Actually they were asking on our Twit forums at tweit that community. What else should I get Apple TV. Apple TV. There really is only one. Roku was the low price leader though. In fact they ye they had between Roku and firestick. Yeah. Yeah. I think they said Roku has a hundred million global households. That's a they have more But they bought the channel as well, didn't they? Mm. Yeah I think you get the whole thing. Do you want to f channel free channelel this is just gonna to be look onn Twit, we talked about this and I think then the rumor was paramount. and I was like, that will be the worst thing ever. This is slightly better than paramount, but only slightly. like now it's just going to be, you know, the to be TV, right? Like cononggratulations. Yeah Fox plans to keep Tubi and the Roku channel separate Fox also hopes to cut four hundred million dollars from the annual costs of Roku. So if you work for Roku, you know what that means. I hope that doesn't mean a drop in the quality thatok. com f streaming. Uh yeah. love loveve Island Canada. I'm if I don't get that the season eight of that Roku has a twenty five percent market share, according to the Wall Street Journal, that makes it number one. numberber two Samsung's ties in Yeah, it makes s. Al those Samsung TV's, twenty three percent of the streaming market. Wh you know, I have a lot of Samsung TV's. I never want to use their streaming interface. Oh Lord There are a lot of people who don't know Well my dad is one of those people. I've bought him so many he had a Roku. He's had a fire stick. He's had multiple Apple TVs. He uses the freaking comcast box. He won't even use the built in web He has a very, very nice LG TV. I would much rather him use the web OS apps built into to that than the ones on the X Finity box. But no, that's what he uses. And I can't I can't do anything. I bought him two Apple TVs. He has them in two rooms. I can't get anywhere. So too complicated, Christina. It's too complicated Buy Waterloo, by the way, just purchased interterintfctionalities. edu Now there' an opportunity. There's a business opportunity, I think. That's I welcome the competition and I will I will crush you. I will crush you. All right. I think I mean there's a lot more we could talk about, but I think we have pretty well One last thing just to mention. Congratulations, Apple. They they won the Tony Award for Shmiga Dun, which means that they compleleted their egot A. But Congratulations, Apple. Thankks for canceling the TV show and winning Tony. That's great And it did definitely seem like the hardest one for Apple to pick up, right? I mean The Tony Aard. Yeah. Yeah if you' stand of comed, you can do a one man show. I mean, you got options, but forpple it's going to be Let me get this clear. So they had a TV show called Samica Dune They canceleded it. It went to Broadway. Yeah. Yes And Apple produced the Broadway version? No, but no they owned they own the right But but they're listed as one of the producers because that's the way the Tony's workth they' like eight hundred producers like attached to a thing. So yeah they were on stage We' not on stage. Inurn Jump up. No, no, no. in fact, one of the producers purposeullly called out and said, thank you, Apple for canceling us. Yes, I did see that. were weret Yeah, they weren't ashamed enough. They weren't so ashamed of the show that they didn't like actually put something on the Apple Newsroom, like proudly saying, Hey, Apple's won a Tony Award Okay. I don't blame. If I won a Tony Award under any circumstances whatsoever, I would be pretending as though that was a wonderful thing. Well because's cool. It's a cool object There was one more story. The rumor is now that the new iPhone will have at least the P will have twelve gigs of RAM for Apple AI. That actually is a story that is going to develop is what you can run the new Sir on, what you can run highigher end stuff on Which phones work and so forth? Yeah. twwelve gigs means probably much more expensive, I would imagine Yeah, I say after the keynote, I was going through, am I do not have a single important computer, including my phone and my watch that is not four or five years old and ready for an update. because I've been waiting for a really good reason update. And so it's like as my decision making this year because I'll definitely be buying a new MacBook like in the next month or two N you're not gonna wait for the M six with the touch and I'm going Okay, I do not have MacBook Ultra money. I do have like I do have M five money. do I do have wait until October just in case they pull off a surprise money. But the thing for us usually like I have a metric that I've followed like for the past ten years. this year, it is like what is the most amount of system RAM that I can afford and still get storage that will work for me because that's going to me in my in my mind, that's going to be the difference between getting another good five years out of this and getting three and a half years in which you get everything and then a year and a half where it's like, I really wish I could get that agentic stuff working, but unfortunately it requires thirty at least twenty four functionalities. comot money starts to roll in, you might have more options. You know what? I'm gonna be that optimistic. M five pro ultra I think it's fun I do think it's funny, Leo that for years and years When people, you know, because Apple doesn't like to talk about RAM and iPhones. they don't like to tell you. And it's like then it's like and every every year when they come out, it's like somebody will ask in the press and they'll say, Ohh, you know we don't talk about that. And then every year, they'll say like, but you know as soon as we get it, we'll be able to know. So why don't you just tell us And they're like, well, you go ahead and do that. And then we go ahead and do that And every year it's, you, not as much RAM as people who watch shows like this were hoping for. And for years it was always come on, look at Apple's margins. They could easily put four more gigs of RAM or however many more They could have. And now this year, the rumor is they're going to increase it and everybody's like, how are they going to do that? Th phones? These phones must cost three thousand dollars R? It's totally flipp from Come on, why are you being so stingy with RAM? RAM makes everything better. and now it's like, oh my God, we' gonna put twelve gigs of RAM in a phone. I don't believe it. Well, it's funny because I think the One plus CEO said that now the cost of RAM is more than half the cost of build materials for phone.. Which is ridiculous, right? It's absurd and it's we don't know when this will abide. Now my only question is I feel like Apple probably Everything I've read, they have their brand prices locked in annually, right? They don't do it quarter to quarter or month to month like other suppliers do ps have gone away. So I hope that they locked in like a year ago at the lower, you know rates because otherwise I think I am worried that we were all going to be in for a little bit of shell shock when new phones come out I don't think they're going to raise prices because I think they see the prices as so inextricably part of the brand So I don't think so. So I think that at least for the phone, but who knows, mayaybe this explains why they don't have M five Mac minis and Mac stududios out yet. you know, that like, well, we've got this much RAM and it's all going into iPhone. Y. Well, maybe maybe let me be more specific. I think that you're probably right in terms of the base iPhone and maybe like the iPhone Pro. But I feel like this gives them an opportunity to have an excuse to have the ultra and the MacBook ultra pr even higher than they would be otherwise because they're going to need to make up the margin on the higher volume products. That's what ultra means. Ultra expensive. means, absolutely. For what it's worth, takeake the word of analysts for whatever it's worth, which is you know, not rumor, but not necessarily gospel truth. But I think a month ago, there was a report from a couple of different analysts saying thatle retty They're not going to be unaffected by the RAM situation. However, they feel as though Apple has enough cover that they are going to pursue a policy of we can put more pressure on particularly Chinese premium smartphones by keeping the prices exactly the same, even if they eat a little bit of margin to do in the long run, it it'll be much, much better for their share And I also again, it's a whole separate discussion, but I think that the line on Apple services is like a ruler draws it, right? It is like there's no seasonal up and down And they I think their confidence that they're going to keep Making more on services gives them the ability to, okay, we'll take a little less margin on the phones because of this RAM thing and we'll be fine because we're not our overall margin isn't even going to dip because we're going to keep increasing it on the services. Do you think they'll put additional AI cost into a services beyond Il plus? No. No, It's certainly not anytime soon. I think right now they're really just please trust us. it's worth trying. Use it. you know, they don't want to ask you for money. And I think intntegrating any kind of paid tier into the existing iCloud plus tiers is obviously the way to go. I think Apple is a long way off from charging even a dollar a month more for for Siri. I mean it's they have so much credibility to earn back And I hope I honestly hope their humility they show last week that maybe they make some commercials that are funny, you know, like, hey, series actually good now, you know kind of admitted it a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that could actually get people to be like, oh, maybe I should try it. if even they're cracking jokes about it. mayaybe they get John Hodg. You don't play O Siri. You know they're on the back foot where they didn't do it by saying Our users love Sies and we're happy to say weve made it even better. Yes. say, you know what? I don't care if I drew the short stick. I'm not saying that. even That's a macro button in pages when they write the script to the keynote. Our users love this, now they're going gonna to love this more. I think that they were like Andy think Yeah, they were like, how do we write this? I don't know. And they're like, we better call in the A team of writers Well, speaking the A eight teams, it's great to have John Gruber on the show. Wonderful to Finally meet you and, of course, daring Fireball is a must read, we talk about your pieces all the time, really good journalism Appreciate it. Christina Warren also here from GitHub where she is, uh Are you didid you mourn Fable? Did you get to play with Fable a little? I did get to play with Fable a little bit and it was great. It was great for the two and a half days that I got to use it. RIP. I'm bitter. I'm bitter. U I was I actually started a major project. Oh no. Well, you know, I wasn't going to pay the token cost for it. so I had til june twenty second to use it on my max subscription. So I thought, well, I got ten days I am going to rewrite our entire Twit ad sales system in those ten days. And I got pretty far on it. I got a they gener generated a questionnaire for stakeholders and it was understood the schema, it understood the old software, it had everything. And then they pulled the plug. it was right in the middle of it said, this model is no longer available. I thought it was me I thought, did my credit card not go through Anyway, you still have the good co pilot, Christina, You're good, you're golden. you're fine.. And I still have co pilot with all the, you know, I have all the other anthropic models and all the open AI models and Gemini three to one Pro. But yeah, I meanable was Fable was really fun for like It was pretty good. Like like the sixty hours we had it or whatever it was, it was awesome. Yeah It's It's like Crash Davis and Bull Durham talking about the two days. he was two weeks in the major leeagues justust it All the hotels are room service, you hit white balls during batting practice. You don't carry your own bags either. How's the new website going Andy andako, Ih NAko. com. It's going terrific. I want to thank everybody who's been signing up and visiting. I will say that I had some I basically have the idea that look If the audience is this big by the end of the summer, I will be very, very happy and it was just like one week for that audience. And so I'm very, very grateful So much so that it's like, you know what? I think I'll cancel like what I was supposed to be doing today and tomorrow and make those extra writing days. because I'm very, very excited. againain, thank you very, very much. I was not assuming that people would be interested in me like doing the blog again for real for real be all very. Yeah, yeah. veryery happy to see that. I H N A T You're watching this week in And Mac. Bak. And we're so glad you're here, you Cub members. We appreciate your support. The club members makeake about thirty percent of our overall operating costs. That's a huge amount. Without you, we would have to cut way back. So I just want to put out a little pitch for those of you who are watching. live or at home to join the club, ten bucks a month gets you add free versions of all the shows. you get access to our club towit discord. Turns out, if you have a social network where people pay ten bucks a month to be there, Qality really goes up, It's really great. We also do a lot of special programming in there. That's where we did the WWDC keynote coverage K know coverage will' be in the club But we also have Stacy's book Club and Micah's media Cub. the photo I think the photo show is coming up this week on the nineteenth. our AI user group in there Most importantly, you're supporting independent journalism without An tie to any corporate interest I mean, look, if Fox does want to buy us for twenty five billion dollars, I'm not saying I'd say no, but until then, your ten dollars makes a big difference. Twit dottv slash club Twit, we thank you so much for your support. We We were all the grandchildren and great grandchildren's immigrants who would rise for who would come to us on our sleep and throttle as if we took turned down twenty million dollars for any reason after all they did That's true in the Italian Alps, which is what my grandfather used to do. A very good point. A very good They would They would want us to take the money, wouldn't they? Yes. Yes. Okay. thank you, Andy. For that I get you get to start the pixs of the wheat. Oh Okaykay, well this is a really really fun feature in a really good app. Google Earth, you' all know about it. It's basically the digital globe that you get for free. In the app version of it, the desktop version of it, it used to have has a flight simulator So you can actually use all this wonderful data and fly through cities and fly from Banger Maine to Fenway Park or whatever, they've just added it to the web version of the app as well. And it's not like like these super intense flight simulators where you will of course crash For the first three months you even try to do anything because everything is scientific and aerodynamic. It is more like the original like Microsoft flight simulator of like one p. How do I launch two? How do I get it going? Go to wherever you want to start off from go under Tols and you will see a new option for flight simulator. Oh yeah Inste instead of a complicated flight you'll get just the arrow keys to control like up down in your rudders and then there this is probably not the mouse I think I just did a barrel roll. The mouse is If you try to use it with a prank th of the mouse, I find it like inoperable. There is actually actually again, to keep the to keep the tone of the show I had to ask Gemini, are there keyboard controls for this? So yeah, pitch up pitage down for increase decreaseed thrust, thrust out arrow and down arrow for pitch up, pitch down, left arrow for Row left, right ar for Row Bank. And yeah, it's It's fun, especially you now In my part, my little coastal colonial fishing village, it's rather flat, It's rather simulated three D. However, once you like go to a good city, it's like, you know what? I'm going to fly all the way to Frenway Park. And I don't think it'll let you land because again, it's not a simulator, it's a simulator in the weakest sense in sense that it's fun, It's more like an arcade simulator. But it is freaking wild man to just basically be controlling Not controlling like a point of view fly over with contro with on screen heads up display and just saying here's what it would be like to basically buzz Boston Harbor. And here's what it would be like to try to and unfortately is not good at this. Exactly. Yeah help me. But I actually actually was getting better and better at it because unfortunately, I came across this at like ten PM whichich is like I should Auger in Doylesestown right now. Wait a minute. watch out Wake go it's a shameed spirit Airlines went under Leo because I think you've got spirit pilots I got The big problem is that it only supports one it only simulates one jet and it's a Boeing So o Gl It's okay, long as it's not a seven thirty seven max. Exactly. Flight simulator, a new reason to go to Google Earth, which I actually haven't launched in a long, long time You know, they have AI in it now. it really is one of the most fun apps ever. It really is like when you're when you went to your grandparent's house and they had like the big attlas and a whole bunch of boxes of maps and you should be able to just imagine where you're going and say, Oh my go, the terrain in like Peru is so weird. I spend so much time just basically browsing Google or. it's just so much fun. It's fun. ye. Let's go to our guest, John Gruber for his pick of the week, John. My pick of the week is from my friend Adam Lisigor at Sandwich, but it's his new app that he's made with AI, which I think is super fascinating because he's not a developer. It's called Hovercraft And the URL is it's sandwichot vision slash hovercraft. just search the web for sandwich hover craft. But basically what it is, it's an app for your Mac that creates a virtual camera. So you still need a real camera. When you're in an app like Zoom or FacTime or any other app like that, you can Pick Hovercraft as your camera and then on screen, you can show slides, just drag an image. If you just have a photo, just drag it into the Hovercraft window on your Mac and then it becomes a rectangle in your square. And then you can use Vision Pro like gestures to like move it around And Adam is doing amazing things really quick. He added support for I wrote down the acronym because I always get the letters wrong USDZ, which is open standard for three D objects. Oh yeah. You can drag a USDZ file into Hovercraft and then in your camera, you get the three D object and you can use your hands like a Vision Pro to like twist it around and move it back and forth. Really, really cool. Oh, you can finger paint on the screen like Picasso, like just there's a mode where you can make a drawing on screen All really, really cool and fun. If you don't want to use your hands on the camera, you can just use your mouse or your trackpad or something like that. But the hand stuff is very fun It's nineteen bucks for one Mac. twenty nine bucks gets you a license. one time fee, not a subscription. twenty nine bucks gets you a license for two Macs. Go to sandwich. com. Vision slash Hovercraft. Very very cool app And it's one of those things It may or may not, it's like I feel like Apple should shherlock it because it's like, why don't all the cameras let you drag images in and drag them around screen? Yeah Very nice, Hovercraft install soon you will see things floating over my shoulder Christina, you're pick of the week First of, I love Hovercraft. I'm somebody who has to present a lot on Yeah screen, I'm going to use this in some of my future meetings. My pick is is parachute app, so' parachute backackup for. There is a certain commonality to all. the picks here. we got flight simulator. We gotovercraft. Now you're jumping out of the plane. So this is great. Yeah. this one's great. So this it's recently purchased by a new owners, the same guys who bought Kaidoscope, which is the best D tool on the Mac. They bought this, which is a backup iCloud, an iPhoto backup app for Mac and for OS. and it's a one time purchase and I back up a lot of things to iCloud and I just kind of trust it But that's not really a great strategy to be honest because things do get corrupted, thingsings do get broken. You don't know where things are going to go. and iCloud and iPhoto is a black hole, which is great. That's by design, but it's also annoying if you're somebody who would like to have reliable backups. And so this is basically just a utility that'll basically let you back up your iCloud documents or your Photo libraries including your shared photo libraries directly to a NAS or another folder or another hard drive, or whatever the case may be. there are a few different modes, how you can like set it up. Basically you can have it mirror and download the full version each time. An incremental backup, which would be more similar to you how something like Tim Machine works Have it be in sync so that it's exactly you what you have in one is the same as what's on the other. It doesn't do two way syncs. So if you delete something on your local drive, it's not going to delete it on your iPod side, which is nice. But it's well designed and it's a one time purchase, not a subscription. And so yeah, parachute Very nice Excellent apps. We appreciate the picks And we appreciate you, John Gruber, thank you for joining us this week. You didn't have to helmet to be on the show. so this shouldn't have been a horrible two and a half hours anyway Yeah I don't need to tell everybody fire daring fireball. net Maybe I do need to tell you d. com also works. Yes. Great to have you, John. Thank you for joining us. Oh It was a lot of fun. Yeah I'm not gonna to say fly eagles fly, but you know. I will climb up a greased flagpole for you. any exactly. Christina, thank you so much. You'll find her at gitHub. com and the Anako's new website is IH N A K. Oh we do Mac break weekly Every Tuesday, eleven and Pacific two PM Eastern, That's eighteen hundred UTC. You can watch us in the Club Twit disiscord of course, but also on YouTube, twwitch X. com, Facebook, LinkedIn and Kick. We stream on all of those after the effect On demand versions of the show available at the website, twwit.tv slash mbW. There's a YouTube channel dedicated to Mac Break Weekly. greatreat way to share clips with friends and family help spread the word Of course the best way to get it is to subscribe in your favorite podcast app. That way you'll get it automatically the minute we're done Thanks for being here, everybody. We'll see you next week and now it is my sad and solemn duty to tell you to get back to work because breakt timee is both