The Future of F1 Business Models

On BBC iPlayer. Gareth. Simple question really. Do you think you're up to this? A brand new drama starring Joseph Fines and Jody Whitaker. Everyone thinks that footballers are overconfident, arrogant. They're afraid . Based on the award-winning play. Keep believing, keep going right up until the final whistle. A new England that comes from behind, that fights. Dear England, watch on BBC iPlayer . Watch professional, less talk, more action. They work on silent cloves. I work on site with the pros, they compose. But yo, I gotta go. Sorry I'm an action. The perfect tools for action. Check out the latest tools and rewards with Bosch Pro Deals. Full details and T's and C's at Bosch-Professional.uk. Engineered for Action You are listening to Mr. Apex Podcast. We live F1 . Welcome to Miss Apex Podcast. I'm your host, Richard Reddy, but my friends call me Spanners. So let's be friends. This is a very serious episode of Miss Apex Podcast because I'm a very serious person with a serious crew. So it is all business news today. So put on your big boy pants and enter the corporate world of Formula One with me as we discuss Gucci entering Formula One. The cost of losing Verstappen in Formula One. What the hell have we missed behind closed doors at Williams? And has the Apple deal ruined F one in America? We are an independent podcast produ ced in the podcasting shed. With the kind support of our patrons and partners, we aim to bring you a race review before your Monday morning commute. We might be wrong, but we're first. I'm joined in the shed by Matt T Rumpets. Hello, Matthew. Hey there, Spanners. You know, people complain about their ridiculous plots of romance novels, but this Williams thing got them all beat. There has to be who is gonna play all those characters that I've never heard of before in the movie . It's already been written the script. You gotta believe it, right? Yeah, that's story number one. We are gonna be talking about the the Guardian Expos and what's going on behind the scenes at Williams, but we are also joined by a new friend from the Business of Speed or Biz of Speed podcast, Vincenzo Landino. Hello, Vincenzo. Helloello, h, gentlemen. Thank you for having me. Yeah, you're somewhat of a an expert in like the grown-up field of business stuff. I have seen you tweet. I pretend to play one on TV. Yeah. I have seen you tweet and I've heard your pods and I've gone we must follow him. He speaks in sentences . Sometimes Hey, you know what you're talking about and I uh there's a lot to one pick about this big story uh that was leaked, uh you know, leaked, sorry, published on The Guardian, a very, very long and detailed description of things going on behind the scenes at Williams. And now I I represent y your everyman Formula One fan. So as far as I know, Williams is James Vowes and nothing more. Every now and then, James Vowes will knock on a door and he'll walk in and there'll be some heads in jars that is the Dar lton board and they'll say James, , is everything going according to plan? And he'll go, Yes, definitely. Don't worry about checking any of the results. It's gonna be fine eventually. But we haven't heard any of the other names in coming up in this story. So Vin cenzo, could you just give us a a little bit of a rundown of you w what it is that's being exposed behind the the Williams bushes? Yeah, so I think high high level, as high level as we can get, it's just there's a question as to who actually is calling the shots at Williams. You have Doralton Capitol who owns it, and you have allegedly there are there's a billionaire with ties to the Conservative Party, which I think is what is raising a lot of the issues, who is being said to actually call the shots. And there's a lawsuit from a former, I I believe she was the chief marketing officer who was let go in November of 2022, which already to me raises red flags. You have a in a a former employee let go of, now suddenly sharing their side of the story. How accurate is it? Supposedly a New York um uh a New York judge is saying that there is more here, and there's a lot more to the story than than originally was uh anticipated. I you know, listen, it's all alleged, but for the Guardian to go this deep on this expose, you know that this was happening in the background, so that's never a good sign. It also wouldn't be the first time to take this full circle in Formula One for those that maybe don't realize it because like you said, there's a lot of folks that might just watch. They care about the cars going around in circle around the tracks. They care about the data and the engineering, but this other stuff is beyond that. Now, I'm I'm kind of the other side of it. I love the racing, don't get me wrong, but I also am very interested in behind the scenes what's going on. And so I think you have a lot of other situations. We've had Force India, we've had Leighton House, Bernie Ecclestone himself, there's crazy dealings. Um uh Caterum had an uh an issue uh had something back in twenty fourteen. You had um I'm forgetting it's kind of slipping my mind now. But there's plenty of other scenarios. Oh yeah. Like so this isn't this shouldn't be shocking to anybody that there's somebody else calling the shots that's not the servative Party, like I don't know are you talking in context of American conservatives or um they call him Right. But I I I don't believe they're dissimilar. I I don't again I I tr the political side I I try not to overstep the way I speak because I don't really know. Uh I haven't dealt you know dove deeply into the political things. Well luckily I have no strong opinions one way or the other when it comes to politics. Uh but but besides not knowing who the who is the real power behind Williams. The things that have been alleged in The Guardian are are spectacular. Like the claims of anti LGBTQ staff really resisting uh you know Hamilton initiatives around diversity and inclusion. And I think the most probably out and out shocking, alarming claim is that uh certain artists, I think it was Wyclef Jean and Shaggy and Shaggy Who our band leader has worked in the world. Just a bombastic story. Yes. Aren't we all bombastic? That that whoever is this this shady beloved leader in the background actually objected and said, like, no, we we don't want these kind of people. It's it's attracting the wrong demographic. So the the claims are are really damning that Yeah they are. Important thing to separate out is what is claims versus what has been demon demonstrated so far. The actual court case that started all of this was filed by Doralton against um uh Schwartz, who is the former chief of marketingficer in twenty three, alleging that she basically overbilled, took money. Right. And then following that there was a series of stories about her having inappropriate uh affair with somebody else at the team . She eventually filed a countersuit. But as far as the New York case goes, and I is the reason we see this now, up until now, this guy, DePutron, who is a former quant trader and billionaire on the aisle of something or the other and doesn't like publicity at all. So sorry for mentioning your name, sir. It won't happen again except for the next dozen times. Uh he used Doralton essentially to gain control of Williams. So this was alleged, but the judge in the case had been redacting his name, but after a certain point said, no, actually there's enough evidence. Yeah. I will no longer redact the name, so that's why we can see it in print now. And my question for you is you're right. It wouldn't be the first time an LLC or a holding company or a hedge fund owned a team , but there was an individual behind it. The question is, does that have any does that create any problems as far as Doralton's purchase and what they presented to the FIA when they actually purchased the team. That would be that would be sort of the legal question. I wonder, is there more out there? So or is it really just because it isn't separate it it has nothing to do with the racing team. Correct. But it has everything to do with the business. Correct. Yeah, I mean in short, it's clear there's there's a there will be or would be a massive gap in the FIA's vetting process, right? Or was the FIA involved, right? Like so you have all these potential allegations. You could keep uncovering that as far as you want. So so if there is a situation where Doralton misrepresented the entry or the purchase or whatever filings they have to do to prove that look, this is a legitimate business. Okay, that's one thing. If this was supposed to be he that he was supposed to be silent, but then eventually he gave I mean, that's very possible in a business, right? It's very possible for someone to buy a little more, buy a little more, or gain a little bit of influence, gain more influence to the point where they've got a lot of influence. They're saying this man i i if what they're saying and alleging is that he is operating through Doralton as almost like a shell for other shady business dealings, like that's a whole other situation. So there's like so many things that can be pulled from this. Again, none of them would be shocking in the world of F1. They shouldn't be like the world of like powerful people with the world in general. But we're talking about F one specifically, where this kind of stuff, I mean, it's all shady backdoor deal. You know, like that's what I think that was the allure of F one for the longest time. It's like, ooh, this European thing and it races all over the world and you know in order to race in this this country, they probably had to do X, Y, and Z. I mean, like things happen, right? It it's it's the way of of getting things done in certain parts of the world. It's shady would be an understatement. So this doesn't blow me away. I think it's just the way it's all being uncovered. And obviously Dorleton being an American company, which again, they are not necessarily controlling the racing aspect of the team, right? They're a holding company. There's there are so many things here. Are they suddenly gonna going to lose control? I I don't think so. Is this gonna blow over? Probably not. This is going to linger until they get to the bottom of it. What is the final outcome? I also don't know because we don't know what this gentleman who has has since been unnamed. Uh we don't really know what what he's involved with he could be involved with things that are unsavory. And if that's the case, then yeah we, might have a bigger problem and people are gonna want to uh find the heads that need to roll. But right now I think it's all speculation, it's all litigation. I don't know that there's a scandal here yet. Um No, no. Just so you know, we s we speculate wildly. That's that's what we do. No, no, speculation is fun. Don't get me wrong. That's why I say like there it there's so many different angles for this. It's not just he definitely did or was I I think where you start to dig and you start to find out like was he actually the one controlling Doralton the the whole time? Like that would be to me, that would be pretty wild, right? Because like this a massive legitimate company being just run by some other guy. Like that would be pretty pretty wild. But other than that, like what would blow us away right now? What would be so shocking for us right now? Uh nothing. Like okay. Matt. Um, well , you gotta start with the allegations of I'm just gonna call it racism and um sexism would be really bad for the image of Williams team if I was a corporate sponsor. Mm-hmm I would not be super happy about being associated with those sorts of things. I mean, you're right, F one is famously mostly concerned with whether or not the check clears. I mean just see rich energy, for example, for a great for a great story. Um I have a question. I might be wrong about this, but is Williams do they have shareholders? Williams themselves or Doralton? Williams themselves. I don't believe Williams is publicly traded, are they? I I don't know. I I just suddenly had that question. Someone I know there is a Formula One itself has shareholders, but I suddenly wondered if w the teams at any point had gone public. Well, Ferrari 's public. Mercedes itself is public . Uh is is no, but Williams Williams is not themselves. The Williams, the racing division is not. Um so they've sold off their technology company. They've been through a lot of things are gone last decade. Yeah, but so so anyway, go ahead. I finit go ahead. Was there more to that? I didn't uh cut you off. No, no, no. I just I just it suddenly occurred to me that if they did have shareholders that's, also a potential problem in that direction. Well, do you know what I'm a bit more interested in the fan side? Okay, so as a person who is ethnically ambiguous, I need I don't need to go further at this point, and as a person who is is sympathetic to people of all different persuasions, I would like to know directly from Williams management, the front-facing Williams management, and I would like this to be asked by F1 journalists. You have to you cannot shy away from this. It has to be the first question to Williams management as we go to Monaco. Who is welcome in your hospitality? What kind of people are welcome in your hospitality? What kind of demographic is desirable and and undesirable? I don't even care what answer I get. I don't care if I get a PR answer. I don't care if I get a duct answer. I directly want my journalist friends and colleagues to be asking that question. I think that is the thing that is making a lot of people's blood boil in the F one fan space. Yeah. Oh sorry. Ooh there. No that's a f I think that's a very fair uh comment. And I also believe that with all of Formula One's initiatives that they are trying to, you know, first of all we know they're not brand on on brand, is it? Yeah. No, not at all. So now I'm gonna say this, I don't this is not con I don't think it's controversial, but like I don't not belie like I believe that things like this happen all the time, whether it's sports or businesses, right? They're uh it's maybe not publicly said. So the fact that it's coming out publicly and it's somewhat um direct what's not somewhat it is absolutely directly against what a lot of the other teams are doing and Formula One itself. Yeah, that's going to be a big deal. Um but it's it's one of those things that I think you know it happens, but you don't wanna believe it sometimes because of like, hey, we're in 2020. When it's Williams and it's James Vowels, who's so bloody nice, and Alex and the first one. Well do we think that James Vowels really has control over like do we really like this is the other thing I'm asking? No, no, no, no, not at all. But what I'm saying is the image of the team is like super fri they're like everyone's team. That is the super friendly face they put on. And this has honestly, as a lifelong Williams fan, reading that article, I just had a th a th uh a sick feeling in my stomach. And I just want the journalist to ask a question. And the simplest thing in the world would be for the Williams management to go, No, that that has never happened. We have never ever objected to people being in our paddock at any level throughout the organization based on their their their race or their sexual preference or their gender. Just say that. It's easy to say that. And I I I'm gonna add this. The both things can be true. They can answer that question and say, we've never excluded anybody. We we, whoever's answering the question, can say, we have never done that. At the same time, there could be someone way, way above them that may have been doing that or putting the, you know, the thumb on the scale type situation. I think both situations can be true. One thing that we see as fans when we're watching a sport or watching you know a series like this or or rooting for our favorite team is that you have a lot of folks working in the day to day that believe one way, right? And then you've got the man in the high castle from up above watching and saying Yeah. Yeah, this is you know that I don't agree with that. I don't so again not that I'm saying it's right. So don't take any of what I'm saying as as that. Like I'm not justifying the behavior. I'm saying that I believe both things can be happening at the same time, which is what I do think is one of the big challenges within Williams right now is there's probably a cultural clash. You probably have the folks who are actually running the team that are doing the day-to-day that have to be the front front facing, and then you might have the folks in the background that are are pulling the strings and they they aren't being seen. Yeah. But they're the ones that are saying, I got your paycheck, I have your paycheck, you know, I'm the one cutting your check. That's there's those are two diabolically opposed situations. So yeah, you can ask them the question, but I think that it can still be there can still be more to that answer. Let's just put it that way. Just to clean up a little bit there, Stuart, I think, is uh tried to answer your question that perhaps they were publicly traded, but then it was taken back into private ownership when Der olton purchased the team. Right. That makes sense to me. But they're not currently. This is where I thought the question was being asked. Yeah. Last thing last thing on this map for you. Come on. For me, I think it's important that we um distinguish the race team from the rest of the marketing from the rest of the organiz ation is very clear the race team is its own thing and probably has a great deal of autonomy. But if I was a team principal and you said, do you care who's in the paddock this weekend for the for the market ing. I I would only care if it was someone I personally was like going to go go go gaga over. Otherwise it'd be like, no, just keep them out of the garage please until we're done with our work. And I think this is exactly the split you were trusting. All right. Over to you, F1 journalists. Uh you've got to ask the question. You you just have to. The next question is, how much would it cost Formula One to lose Max Verstappen? And yes, this is a subject that I'm bringing up because I've been arguing with Verstappen fans online. It's something that happens relatively often. I got accused of having an online vendetta uh against Verstappen. I'm gonna just say this to you to you guys now, to the Verstappen people that that listen for the sake of starting an argument with me, which I don't mind at all. Uh but when I say anything that is not necessarily fully favoring Verstappen, what tends to happen is I get a big rush of very, very angry butthurt Dutch for Snap and fans. Sorry that is, what's happening, who then blow it up and you guys retweet it and you quote tweet it. You expand my fame across the globe. And anyone who doesn't follow me, the only times I appear on their feed as an F one fan is when it's some kind of Verstappen type tweet. But look, the latest thing for me is that Verstappen is absolutely entitled to his viewpoints on the regulations, many of which I agree with, many of which I called very early on. The second it was announced, actually our viewpoints that we had on here were very similar to the ones that w Verstappen was raising in in twenty twenty three. Lots of valid criticism. Don't mind m don't mind that at all. Also, he's allowed to do with his career whatever he wants. He can go horseback riding, he can become a jockey, uh he can go skeet shooting in the Olympics, he can do whatever he wants. I don't mind him objecting to the regulations, I don't mind him objecting uh you know to the current rule set, and I don't mind him wanting to do something else. The my main issue at the moment, and this is why I'm asking what is the cost of losing Max Verstappen is he has directly said if they don't go to sixty forty, uh I you know it's fifty fifty now, you know, quote unquote fifty fifty, there's gonna be a m uh a a proposed move to uh a solid 60-40. Verstappen thinks that's a good idea. If it doesn't happen, he says he's not interested, he's gonna leave the sport. So that is that is can be taken two ways. It can be taken as holding the sport to ransom, change it or I quit, damn you. Or it could just be a very innocent if it changes, then I'm not interested in in in racing in without that change again, which again is entirely fair. The thing I would object to is if Formula One panicked and went, Oh my goodness, we're gonna lose Verstappen . We'd better do the thing he says. That would be an extraordinary amount of weight for a player to have within a sport. So I will ask you, Vincenzo , what is the cost of losing Max Verstappen? How much will Dominicali be quaking in his boots at the prospect? I saw somebody put you know put a number on this. Uh they said hundreds of millions. Uh great drivers come and go. Great athletes come and go. Are you a Verstappen fan, by the way? I I I I am I am a big fan of Max Verstappen. I am a but I'm also a big fan of Lewis Hamilton. I'm a big fan of Whoa, whoa, whoa. Can you do that? I actually have you know what's really funny? My my daughter found my b my daughter found my two little bobblehead dolls. I have one of Lewis and one of Max side by side right behind me right there. And um no, I I I I I 'm a fan of of greatness and I think both are great drivers, so there there's nothing wrong with that. Will it w will it cause any massive dip? I I don't I just can't see it because now when you lose someone like Lewis or when you lose somebody like maybe even maybe even Lando, and I'm not the biggest Lando fan as a as a driver, but um where they're making more waves kind of off the grid. Uh I do I do think that is where you start to get into los ing some appeal. Um Lando's Lando, his the demographic of fans that follows Lando is directly in line with who F1 is trying to appeal more to, right? So yeah, you could see some change there. Lewis has a massive amount of fans. I think Max also has a massive amount of fans. Where could the where could the dip come from? Probably his home country, sure. But are you gonna see some global, massive like I hate F1, I'm no longer watching it again? I I don't think it's not because I don't like Verstappen, because I really like Verstappen. I've grown into a massive Max Verstappen fan. I think I didn't realize that before he came on the show, by the way, Matt. I'm so sorry. We can just gen we can hang up on him. I mean that's an option. I'm laughing. I'm laughing. I'm not like a I'm not orange army or anything. Let's just put it that way. Listen, I bleed red. I bleed red. Of course. Oh yes. Yes. And I I am team over driver. I'll say that right now. So I'm a team over driver kind of guy. Oh really? I'm much more driver over team. Much more. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I I like drivers across different teams. If I like the driver, I like the driver, but it's team, team, team. I mean I want I want the horse, the prancing horse to finish first. I don't care which driver does. And and I'm in that situation now by the way, just accidentally, because like I would rather hate my my driver's teammate, but like I'd like both Leclerc and Hamilton. And obviously Ferrari is the Death Star, which I've hated since the eighties, and now they're both there. It's ridiculous. It's the most horrible position I've ever been in. It it it's fair. Um I no I I no hate. I don't hate anybody that's a fan of any driver. I I just I like Max Verstappen because I think he on on track, again, on track, I just I like the way he drives. And I think I think your point is well well made that that currently Verstappen's making mu much more waves with his comments and they have been v persistent. Uh and there was a point with Lando Norris as well where his his off his off track oh I'm the Bantasaurus Rex kind of thing was distracting from the racing image. And I we are in in danger of getting into that territory with Verstappen where he's he's just known as this anti-regulation mouthpiece instead of what he's doing on track at the moment. And maybe he is, but like to say that he's suddenly it's suddenly going to shift, make massive waves in F1 would be I I don't know. Again, I'm just I don't I can't see that being the case with how much Formula One media pushes is pushing the whole sport forward across things that it doesn't even matter who you root for anymore, right? Like all of if you look at a lot of the partnerships and the sponsors they're bringing on board it's very agnostic to as to a driver or a team. It's kind of like we are raising the all of the ship. We're raising the tide. So all ships go up. So to say that Max Verstappen leaving is suddenly going to cause this downturn. No, I I don't believe so. Um but Max is also not, I don't think he would care, right? Like Max is gonna be like, see you later, I'm done, I'm gonna go do some other thing, and I'll be happy with it. And that's what I truly believe. Like if he leaves, he doesn't care if he's leaving money on the table. He doesn't care. Because Mac to for Max, this is a plat a massive platform, right? If he walks away tomorrow, I believe he'd probably delete all his social media, he'd probably delete everything and just go racing and and and call it a day. Maybe maybe. I don't know. I think a lot of his fan base would just go and watch whatever he goes to go, you know, whatever he chooses to go to. So yeah. But are you suddenly not gonna watch Formula One because Max Verstappen's not in it? Th there is a Dutch contingency that what that that is true for. And I would say ninety percent of the Dutch uh fans who came in specifically for Verstappen, their interest will go once Verstappen goes. Well I think it's a relatively small portion of F. And that's fine, but then you'll get new contingencies. Like, look, now Italy Italy is finally coming on with a drive. How good is that for the Italian community with Antonelli. It's fantastic I love I love Ant I'm rooting everyone everyone for Kimi Antonelli. Everyone is right which is which pains me because he's directly beating a team that said no to him that I love. But he he you know he's doing fantastic things on track. Great. I want him to keep winning. Um that's what's going to happen, right? They're and also we're seeing this more strategic shift uh, you know, selection. Um the Logan Sargent experiment didn't work, he wasn't ready, and I don't think he was the the guy. But you're gonna have an American driver who's going to be more than halfway decent. Is it Colton Herda? I don't know, but somebody will come along. Um, you'll have I think the next driver we're gonna see is either, you know, a Japanese or a Chinese driver. Now I know we've had some . They haven't panned out, uh, but I think that that'll be another content. We know F1 wants China bad. But they'll go after that soon. So like again, yeah, so if Max goes, any any dip, they're gonna they're gonna fill that gap with something else Oh my God, F one's over, Max Verstappen's gone, the F one's over. Uh my simple answer to that question is they lose nothing because they've already got Kemi . You know, I mean, and you're right , 100% of Dutch fans showed up for Max. 90% of them leave. Uh, Formula One has just made a 10% increase over what they had before Max showed up. What I really like about this, though, is uh to me, number one, if you've really got that power, that's a club you swing behind closed doors. You do not put that in the paper. So immediately I think this is again a political play for regulations that are wanted by certain people and not others. But this is down to the manufacturers approving this engine change. They could have bigger fuel tanks. It's going to be an issue, an expensive issue to reconfigure, and there may not even be enough time to do it for next season, even if they started now. But if you were any team but uh Red Bull, any manufacturer but Honda, and Max said, if you don't change, I quit, what would you do? Even if you wanted to change, you'd be like, Bye There goes my toughest competitor out the door, and all I gotta do is say no to this change, and he's gone. So strikes me as silly from that point of view. It also would set way too dangerous a precedent, isn't it? So like imagine if um I mean if Lewis Hamilton had done the same thing in his heights, I would be sitting here equally going, No, you can't let a drive I hate it when the teams do it. I can see it like a little bit more the teams are putting money in, I can see how much leverage they've got, maybe the impact of a manufacturer leaving who's supplying three or four teams, and maybe that's a little bit but I still hate that. Uh but yeah, it's it just doesn't feel very kind of sporty, a sporty way to decide things. The money that these drivers make is a lot and it seems like a lot to you and I, right? It's a lot of money. It does. But y but but you f you, you, everybody, collectively, you, we forget that the brands that are paying these guys and gals to drive the cars are making signific antly more money and ultimately they're the ones that have a say. So great point because yeah, Max left and he or you know threatens anything. You you're not gonna blow up a multim illion dollar project because one guy w'alkings away, like it it's gonna cost you more to so yeah, but these brands, these companies, you know, if you think Lewis Hamilton's hundred million dollars was a lot for for you know Ferrari or who like maxes Think about how much money they're pulling in and sponsor and that's just the sponsorship money they're pulling in, right? Like there's other revenues that they are making. So yeah, I uh like mm you can't tell me that one driver is suddenly going to change so much that and either way, right? Whether they whether they they leave or whether they were to try and threaten a a team, like I I just don't see it. Sorry, I'm in action. The perfect tools for action. Check out the latest tools and rewards with Bosch Pro Deals. Full details and T's and C's at Posh-professional.uk . Engineered for Action . Family Days out can be expensive, but my NatWare's current account helped us get here. I can track my spending and save my spare change with roundups, helping me manage my money. Which means we can enjoy days out. Open a NatWest Current Account today and enjoy those special days out. Search NatWest Current Accounts. NatWest. Tomorrow begins today. Account eligibility and app criteria apply. Monthly account fees may apply. Eligible current and savings account required for roundups. At Now West you were backed by the current account switch guarantee. My name is Chevy and this is my NHS story. Over a couple of days I was getting quite intense pain on the left side of my stomach. So I called my doctors and then was referred to the L M CDT. It was literally a seamless, stress-free day. There was no anxiety or worry. The government is opening new community diagnostic centres with many already available 12 hours a day, seven days a week. So the NHS can be there for all of us when we need it. Find your closest one at gov.uk NHS fit for the future, available England wide. Ben Kay in our Patreon Discord, uh join them by going to patreon.com forward slash missed apank says, would we, hang on, I'm gonna put it in uh hang on, I reckon Northern is Benke . Would we be having same discussion if Hamilton and Alonso were threatening right, be clear. I said prime Hamilton, yes. Absolutely, prime Alonso, yes, absolutely, because I just don't like who else was there? I don't like essentially like it's emotional blackmail, isn't it? It's like oh yeah , well you're not gonna do things my way. Well then I'm not gonna do anything to help this marriage anymore. And it's like no, you can't you can't operate like that. But with prime with a prime Alonzo or a prime Hamilton and now of course I'm gonna probably shoot myself in the foot by saying this. That was a you know, you're still at a time where there wasn't like who else was really on the grid threatening I mean, and there was, I understand there was some overlap in both situations, but right now there's a lot of and again it's changed quite a bit right now. Right now a driver doesn't even have to perform. I mean look at Leclerc, right? He hasn't won anything. Whoa. And I love Charles. Where's the clerk hate coming from? I love Charles. But he hasn't won anything. But look at the brand and the fandom he has. Yeah. Follow people will will die for him, right? But he's not winning up and again, this is no hate to Charlie. He's a I think he's a very good driver. He's just not winning, right? He's not like Kimmy Antonelli is gonna surpass him in wins this year. So it you see, you know, it's like you really have to look at it and say, yeah, maybe a prime driver like uh uh uh like Louis and and Alonzo, maybe it's a little different. But right now, if the state of Formula One as it is, as a business, nah. We're in a di it's a different ballgame. We're playing a completely different ballgame right now. I'm glad you bring up business because uh in in doing my usual uh perfunctory research for this, I I have two important facts to share about whether or not Max would be missed from a business perspective . One, James Vowels, Miami says 83% of the sponsorship is US based. Help me out. I don't think Max lives in the US. Second, and more importantly, Gucci coming in to Alpine, very important. Yep. They're after Formula One because they see the audience trending younger and more female. Again, correct. I don't necessarily see that is Max's wheelhouse. Not that there aren't women who support him and are big fans, but on the whole thing 's it's Lewis's Carlos's or is not necessarily what Max is delivering from a business sponsorship So it makes the threat even less uh effective, I think. I'm so glad you brought up the Gucci thing. I think we're gonna talk about the Gucci. Next on the list. So feel free to segue I I just think that you know, great timing. First of all, Gucci, my God, how smart. LVMH is everywhere running roughshod over you in Formula One all over the world. L V M H uh Louis Vuitton Moe Hennessy. Who owns Louis Vuitton? Sorry. Sometimes I say things and I'm like, I don't remember. I don't even know. No, no, no. You you really need to speak to us like we're five or six and and and slower if possible. So LVMH is the holding company that owns uh a lot of like m Mo e , um Louis Vuitton, who we have. Lots of luxury brands would do fine here. We know. Yes. Yeah. Correct. So Gucci not being owned by by L MH, I think was seeing the opportunity now they've they've been in I think it's eleven quarters straight of decline. Uh I'm so I'm sure somebody will check me on that. Gucci. Yes, no, no. I was speaking to some people in the fashion industry and when when the news broke , uh this lady said to me, she went, Yeah, they haven't done anything significant it for a while, like as something that that that paints themselves across the industry for a for a while. So like she used the word like they've become irrelevant, knowing that that's not quite true. But but do you know what I mean? Like they've faded in their significance. They're fading hard. And so to see them come up with the money for this for uh uh of let's slow down even further. Luca DeMayo, once CEO of Renault , moved and became the CEO of uh the French company K-Ring, who owns Gucci ? So again, another holding company that owns Gucci . So Flavio Briatore being the savvy . You know, we were talking a little earlier about shady business and shady stuff, and here's Flavio coming up, right? Uh Flavio his calls his old buddy Luca and says, Hey, uh, you know, we we need money here. We're we are hurting. We've got the sharks circling constantly at Alpine and Luca knowing the business saying sure, you know, we could we could use something splashy jumps in and Gucci is now from twenty twenty-seven on for three years. It's a it's gonna be a test for three years. Three years a hundred and fifty million or so dollars they'll be sponsoring title sponsor of the uh alpine team and alpine will lose bwt it'll be the first well, I say first Definitely the first fashion sponsor since at least Benetton. Uh Hugh well, Hugo never had title sponsorship, but they were title sponsorship. All over the shirts, weren't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and there are other fashion brands. So I'm not at like I'm not saying there's no fashion brands ever, but to be a title sponsor or or a named sponsor like that on the team, I th I'm pretty sure it was Benetton. So Benetton. Um so this is it's definitely good news. I like it as a play. Very smart because you know your competit their competitor, Gucci's biggest competitor, uh uh with Louis Vuitton, is all over the place. So what's a way they can get get some a movement? They would have never been able to get in on the Formula One level, right? They they kind of missed that boat. That's a 10-year billion dollar investment by uh LVMH. So Gucci found another way in . This is a perfect opportunity. And I think it's quite frankly, it's on the cheap. If you look at trending title sponsorships are how high they're going, I think it's a pretty good deal. And Alpine's showing pr showing up pretty well since they switched power units and whatnot. Not bad. Let's be honest, not bad for for a team that's supposed to be a works team. Teeny teeny tiny challenge from video producer Steve, who says Tag hoya is a fashion brand and so they were labeled as the engine supplier for Red Bull in like 2014, 15 years. If you're gonna if you wanna call okay, I mean luxury fashion, I I don't they're a watch brand, sure. Counter challenge, counter challenge. We can nitpick, we can we can we can pick nits. That's fine. I would totally accept it. I will totally accept I was wrong. Or I was I had a different opinion. Steve. Steve. Yes, say that. Um it's you don't see it often, right? So it's coming back. This would be this would be very interesting. It also it also opens up the portfolio. Like, who else can we go after, right? Like we've been seeing a lot of tech, we've been seeing a lot of uh uh finance companies, financial companies. Could we see an influx of luxury fashion houses now? Well maybe. I mean it's I said this I I wrote this in my dispatch my newsletter. I I do a newsletter as well. Oh where is your newsletter, Vicenzo? BizofSpeed.com. Go check it out. It doesn't compete with us too much. It's fine. Um but you know the the one the first thing I said kind of the top of the the article was Gucci's buying themselves twenty four, twenty five uh uh fashion shows , runways every year. You know, they can turn every race into a fashion show, a runway, which I think is massive in the world of fashion. You know, you need visibility. You need people to see your collections. Now, I don't know what they're gonna put out. I'm not in that world, so I don't know what design th they're gonna come up with, right? You can't throw crap out there and people are gonna be like, eh, that's okay, great. Now you're selling us something that we don't want. They've gotta be smart about that. And I'm sure they will. You're not going to spend 150 million dollars and then not at least try to tap into the market that's you're appeasing, you know, uh appealing to. And uh yeah, the m I I think it's a perfect, it's just it's a perfect uh storm here. You you know, Gucci needs the younger fan base, Formula One's got it, Formula One's global, Gucci, you know, wants to remain global. Um Formula One's well positioned and Alpine was I think a cheap buy. I mean there they you wouldn't have been able to buy Ferrari for 100 million fifty million dollars. You wouldn't buy first of all you probably you wouldn't have been able to anyway they've already got HP and other brands, I think the top four all have a title sponsor. They do. Who else would do Cadillac? Like I wouldn't gone Cadillac. It just wouldn't fit it wouldn't have fit what they're going after. So the next best thing, a French team with a with a guy that we know. And you do have to love it. I I think um from a business point of view is brilliant because look at who's getting all the traction in the paddock these days. You've got influencers, you've got the wives and girl friends, all of some of whom do that as their job and your product is there. Yep. Certainly your drivers, it's all gonna be there. It's so much free money for them but i have to ask the following two questions and spanners you're involved in this one they're naming the team Gucci Racing Alpine F1 team which I don't know the acronym for that would be Graft. Oh and their livery colours are black and gold, which I last remember being associated with rich energy. Rich energy. What are you doing here, people? Or John Player. John Player Special Cigarettes sponsoring Lotus in the olden games. It's funny. If um if Alpine's still in the name, everyone's just gonna call it Alpine. But uh because of the whole V Carb scandal with that that naming you've got oh, let's call them V Carb, I will definitely call them Graft all season. I don't know. I think people might call they're gonna start calling them Gucci. Gucci, really? I really do. I wonder. I think I think yeah Gucci, right? The Gooch, how'd the Gucci do today? But they 're I think the new fans , it's easier to sell new fans on that team than it was Alpine. How many Alpine t fans do you run into? Oh uh no. That's no, none. I've never ever met an Alpine fan. I can almost guarantee I'm gonna say it on this show , today at whatever time it is, UTC. Yeah. There are zero you will start to it'll be Gucci racing fans. They'll have the branding. People will want to wear a Gucci racing cap because it's got a Gucci logo on it. Probably at a significant discount to what you could buy a real Gucci cap for, like a Gucci cap for. Oh, I could buy the racing team one for probably still a lot of money, a hundred quid or so. But cheaper than going to buy uh something at their uh one of their boutiques, right? The marketing the marketing people at Gucci Alpine will brief the press and influencers and and and then they'll have events and they'll have influencer things and they'll they'll they'll br and it accordingly and so you know they they will have people who they give favors to and they'll say oh by the way just call this Gucci and so this is what I want to say right now. Invite me to things. I like Paddock Club. I will accept Friday and Saturday. I don't need Sunday. And I will call it Gucci on Miss Apex for all time. I'm on Netflix as well. I'll I'll do it there too. Just invite me to stuff. Come on. Gucci. It's Gucci. It's Gucci, baby. It's Gucci. It's all Gucci. I I do believe, I mean, it's like it's it is a win-win. There's you they can't miss here. They really can't. They would have to royally screw this up at this point. Gucci, I'm talking about. So Matt can, they royally screw this up? I mean it is Formula One. All things are possible, but you know what they've already done? They've already made it too expensive for Mercedes to buy into alcohol. Okay. Ex expound on that please, Matt. Um the official Mercedes bid for the Alpine shares from Otro has been dropped because they are asking seven hundred twenty million dollars for their stake, which they purchased for around two hundred thirty million a couple of years ago in twenty three. That's so many money. And Mercedes said that values the team over three billion dollars, and uh you know, we don't think it's really worth that. So instead of coming up with a higher bid, they said goodbye to the process, and they are out, which I'm sure means that Red Bull is breathing a sigh of relief because Zach will stop screaming about teams owning other te ams for the short term at least. Did did we cover how much Gucci are paying to be part of F one or no? Uh hundred million million. Hundred and fifty million does not buy you an F one team. So fifty million a year that they're buying fifty million a year. They're buying the mark marketing rights, they're buying naming rights. But again, there's y you're Gucci and you're not buying on you're not buying on Ferrari or or a team with existing cap name capital. It's Alpine. And again, no shade at Alpine, but it's not Hey De Reno . This is Alpine that most people don't even realize is a is a car brand, right? I mean, in the U.S., Trump Trump is teeth. How many people know Alpine in the U.S.? It's like rocking horse shit, basically. Yeah. Right? So and again, it uh it's wherever you are, right? If you're in France, you know Alp you you know it. But it here or if you're in Europe, you know it. You don't hear maybe and globally I don't know what they're I haven't looked into their own. In the UK, if it hadn't been for LP and F1, I would I don't know. I would never have spotted an album. US and UK. I I would go even further to say it's probably just as bad uh recognition wise if you go to to um Asia Pacific. So outside of a small region of the world, uh there's not much recognition. Gucci's gonna instantly put them on the well inst everybody knows Gucci. Yeah. Everybody. Yeah. Gu Gucci could be they could have a hundred quarters of of downturn. Yeah. And everyone still knows who Gucci is. Gucci's like an ubiquitous name almost, isn't it? It's in everybody's consciousness. And I and I'll tell you, like in in the militar y, if you had a non-standard bit of kit, like you know, you might get issued with army gloves, but then if you went and bought like some specialist combat gloves or whatever, you go, uh you'd always say, like, oh I got a new Gucci pair of gloves or like oh look at those Gucci boots or whatever and it was it it became you know how Google was the term for internet search? Gucci for us was the term for item of thing you wear that is brilliant. That was the nineties though. But it's in songs, you know, people to s uh use the word Gucci. Like it's it is. It's become slang. It I'm I don't know if it's still a Gen Z slang, but it was definitely slang for whatever the previous generation was. Uh like it's all Gucci, right? It's all good. Vicendo giving us millennial slang. But Trump, it's your your Is it millennial? I don't know. Your millennial and it's your slang. But is uh it is not. Trump ets is distinctly like Gen uh Gen T. W what's before Gen X? I I qualify for Gen X I mean the very first year of Gen X. In fact, we span either side of Gen X, but for you is Gucci like, you know, is that exciting for you, the F ones embracing Gucci ? I mean, I was never um I was never into that scene when I was a kid, but if you told if you said Gucci, I'd know you meant an expensive luxury item that people probably pay far too much for the quality they get. Yes. That would be my general assessment of most luxury items. So we can agree that everybody knows Gucci and this is good for Alpine. Yeah, they will. you don't know it will. They will be the Gucci racing team. People will not refer to him as Alpine. I'm saying that right now Wha why why has Alpine just been like that incredibly hot woman who's done just uh in a failed marriage and everyone's just been w circling the drain , waingit for the divorce to come through, and now suddenly like everybody is on her dance card. An opportunity to buy in, right? You're buying in an opportunity to ha for they they have a team, they have you know, they have uh They're a franchise, aren't they? There's assets, right? There's things there that you can tangibly see and and and yeah, I I it's mostly the like it's not the name. I don't think it's that no one cares about the name per se. No, it's the fact that they have a garage, isn't it? Yeah. So my concern, Matt, is that that that nobody is buying this to win a championship. That's my concern. Everybody is just looking at Alpine Gucci now or Alpine to kind of go, Oh, how can we do business in Formula One? And then you go Well that's what it is. Is that not what is that not and I'm gonna push I'm gonna push back on you a little bit. Isn't that kind of what we are seeing in F one now in a lot of motorsports right now. No a hundred percent because it's become a franchise sport and you Americans are so indoctrinated into it. You are so you're so immune to franchise sport that you just accept that yeah, there can be a team in the midfield not really trying to do anything. It's unfortunate, but you know, here's the other thing: a lot of private equity is seeing motorsports and sports in general as an opportunity to make money. And and so when I say to make money, everyone's thinking, oh well they all are trying to make money. Not really, because there's I want to win a championship, make money, and there's let's just appreciate the asset to make money money, right? There's two different sides to that very same coin. You can buy a team, invest in players. We see it in football all the time, right? You see you see uh owners come in, hire a coach, throw all the money possible, they buy a bunch of players, they win a championship, and they cash out. Okay, cool. Or or or whate ver. Motorsport hasn't always been that way, but now we're seeing a lot more private equity come in and say this there's an actual asset here for us to hold this for five years. The whole sport is going up, which is good for everybody. So your ten million dollar I'm using an example here, your ten million, a hundred million dollar buy in today, if as long as the sport continues to grow, which it is and there's no sign of of absolute fall off yet, that's gonna be worth 500 million, if not more, in five years time. Yeah, I'll take that gamble, I'll take that bet. Private equity, you get some investors, you come in, you buy a share of that team, that that opportunity, it goes up and you're out. Yeah, no one cares about the championship. Yeah, they just want to see their money go up. It's like investing in a stock on the stock market. I'm gonna put it in, I'm gonna hold onto it, I'm gonna watch it go up and I'm gonna sell it. That's all they're doing. It's yeah, it's a shame. As as someone who loves motorsport and loves watching good racing, yeah, of course. Do I think it's ruining the sport? Sure, I think there's an el element of that as well. But I also say to the detractors, because I think there's some folks that are completely on the opposite end of this. Without money, you do realize you wouldn't even watch a sport at all. You wouldn't there'd be there would be nothing for you to watch. Would you rather have something or nothing? That's where I sit with it. It's like, yeah. Are they are some things being ruined? I do believe so. Will they figure it out over time? I also believe that. I love that you are so new to this show that you don't realize he's always wrong about everything. Like you have to start from this premise or else we don't have a show. So I will see your I will see your league medallion, whatever, and say that in the past eighteen years there have been three separate constructors championshi ps. Two of the one all two of them have won all but one year. And almost all of that preced ed Liberty being, you know, a big chunk of that was before Liberty even came into the sport. So like I get the league thing. I I get that I yeah, every but what it's done is made all the teams have more money so they can be more competitive. And we've had some really competitive and interesting races. It's just hard to win, and the teams that are winning have had such a head start without cost caps or anything else. Very difficult to catch up, even when you start to try and make rules to allow for people to catch up. What I'm I'm really curious about though, yeah, is again in doing a little bit of research, uh going back to the vowels thing. He was talking in Miami, and he said that at Williams, they have a cap of 24 partners. They refuse to take more, and they will only pick the best partners. Now, when I was a kid growing up, if you were a sponsor of a car, you gave them money, they put their your name on their car, they won, you got people to buy your thing because you're associated with winning. Yep. And suddenly they are like, what? I got to pass a standardized test to be a William sponsor? Isn't it just I give you money and you put name on car? How has this change come about? Well, first of all, that's completely opposite of what McLaren does and Zach Brown believes, right? Zach Brown will sell you any spot that he's got. That's that's what he does. Now that works for him. He's got you know, sometimes I uh they'll sign a new partner and I'll just be like, Another one? Like where are you how how are you giving enough time to all of these partners? So I understand uh Williams or any team that would say we're capping our partnerships because they have to I I don't know if people realize this, but when you're a partner, you you expect to get some things back from the team. I want time with the team principal. I want time with the drivers. I want time with whoever, right? I want time at your factory. I want I want space in your hospitality. So there's only so much you can give around. Now, I don't know how McLaren does it. Uh I was with a McLaren partner in Vegas last year and we got 15, 20 minutes with Zach Brown, and I got to chat with him and and whatever. That's how they use the time. They gave me the time to talk to Zach Brown. I was given that time to like interview Zach Brown and we did some stuff with him, which is really cool. Anyway, that doesn't really answer your question. Um do I think or how has it changed? It's changed because I I don't think there's ever been a time where this many brands were as interested as they are now. You've got everybody in their mother that's interested. And so if you're a a uh race team, now there's a plenty of different ways to go about it, but if I'm running a race team and I'm saying, okay, I need sponsorship, I would rather have this exclusivity or somewhat exclus ive and we're gonna cap it. Now I this do this works theoretically. I don't think it works in practice because again, look at McLaren, look at some of the other ones. But I'm gonna cap it. I'm gonna say we've got only twenty-four slots. Hopefully we'll get higher premiums for those slots. But you'd also have to perform. That's where performance comes in. Now, if that was let's say Ferrari saying that or Red Bull saying the same thing, they'd probably be getting a lot more money and those slots would be sold out. Williams on the other hand, I don't know that they're g I I don't know the deals every single deal because those are still very on the down low of like exactly what these brands are throwing. There's guesstimates that we have and and we can figure out. But yeah, I think you hope to get the most money, the most bang for your buck, but you also want to align with companies that s have the same values you do. I just I don't sometimes you see some sponsors they sign you know, team sign, you're like, Okay, well there's there's no like what's the value. But your your morals morals, Matt, as we know, do does it does have a value. That's the PR that's like the PR answer. Oh, we wanna align with companies that uh you know, have the same values we do. I Matt, get in there 'cause I I I have two personal experiences of of brands tie-ins from from the very recent and probably involve a f N F four car if I'm not guessing incorrectly here. Um, he went on to say it's based on you joining us on the journey, this is how you can contribute towards it. So what I'm seeing being written about and being said is that it's no longer a passive th ing. In the past, if I wasn't a technical partner, if I was a brand sponsor, I gave you a check, you gave me a certain number of activations, and you know, maybe we hung out at dinner, we played golf together. Now, now the Formula One team seems like it's saying, okay, it's not enough for you to do that. Also, you need to bring our Formula One team to new markets that you have access to. We don't. So it it's just seems like the whole landscape has really shifted a lot. And is it just No, there's also trans Yeah, go sorry. Vincent. No, as I said, there's also a transfer. I think like you know, you HP, they you know, they they're coming on as a sponsor, but they're also Ferrari's now their customer. Same thing with Oracle, same thing with IBM, same thing with AWS , um Amazon Um Web Services, uh who's another technical partner, you see'll them in the broadcast, you'll see them on the website. One centimeter from the wall. But you know, Salesforce, it's no longer just like you said, I'm gonna give you money to be on the car. There has to be this value exchange, and the value exchange is sure, we'll pay you the money to be on your car, but we also want you to buy our services from us and you're implement group that you need to implement our service amongst your entire team. Now, again, it's not just the race team. There's a whole big team back at the factory. And in in a Mercedes case or Ferrari's case, they actually sell cars So now you're like, Oh wait, there's a bigger operation there, so we're gonna sell it now. Mobile one and Petronas, you know, th those things are much more sort of symbiotic where they can go, right, now throughout your entire Daimler fleet you're gonna use Patronas and um who was mobile one with I forget now. Was it Red Bull? Red Bull. Yeah. It was Red Bull. Yeah, but but I've worked with uh brands on the other side where they're just they are trying to buy , you know, be a partner, here's our name, put your name on the car, and then we would like some activations. And and so you know, we had one partner who was very keen on working with with Miss Apex and we we done it we do did a few things and then the next time I sort of went went back to the traugh to go, Oh, let's do it again. You know, very kind of honest and frank conversation of we're not we're not continuing with F one. And and both of these were with with top top teams, so like top half teams. And it was like we are one of those junior partners. So yeah, if you start to dilute how many partners you're gonna get, you go, we couldn't get anything from them. The the people we have access to or or are what did you call it, Matt, again? Activations? No. Um uh like when you get access to a team principal or uh uh an engineer or a plus an activation. Yeah, an activation . Yeah, so th the activations that they had access to were very sort of difficult to come by and they just felt they weren't getting that value and therefore they they pulled out. The other brand that we were working with, and again, I'm being very careful not to not to name them, their reason for pulling out was actually we're not getting the impressions and the growth that we thought we would get from being in F1. So we've put a lot of money in as sponsors that were were prominently featured on shirts and and the car and it didn't translate into sales. So then they pull out. But with what with Gucci, I think they can probably uh manipulate that conversation a little bit more. I'm I'm very interested in what you said about turning each race into a catwalk. Did you mean figuratively or literally? Like will they literally have cat walks at all the tracks? I mean look at what's happening across sports as a whole. First of all, we'll take let's take Formula One. Lewis Hamilton walks in and it is a fashion it is a fashion walk. Yeah. He's walking in the walk. Yeah, and Gasly is Leclerc as well. Leclerc with with with Alexandra. They walk in. They walk in with their girlfriends or their wives or whoever. And y it is stop the show. I mean you've got you've been in the paddock, you've seen it before,. Like yes, everyone stops and watches Lewis. And I'm gonna use Lewis as an example. What I mean, everyone watches Max walk in, and Max is usually wearing a t-shirt and a hat, right? Like I was with a lady from a fashion magazine, because we you know you're talking about the F4 , she'd been at this this event uh with us, and so met her at the paddock, and uh as soon as she saw the the Le Clerk's uh partner with the dog and then uh Carla Signes's partner, the Scottish lady. I don't know what she does for a living, but they're all really glamour. Glam model. Glam oh model, right. And then there was another lady there as well. But they were all just like proper influencer, you know, professionals in their own right. And they were just at a table in the paddock and and this lady from the fashion magazine was like, No, I'm not interested in anything else now. This is this is all I'm interested in. It is reality and and it's other sports too, the WNBA, which there's we're seeing those women walking in under a tunnel. It's not as glamorous as a paddock. They're walking in under the tunnel and there's shots of them, whatever they're wearing. Usually something super glamorous, or they just look really done up and they're all their photos are. Uh same thing, you know, we see it in football. We see it in um in in basketball, the regular MBA. It it's across the board. It's you're seeing that. There's a lot more of that. The fashion element is there.. So yeah, of course I think if they don't do that, it's a missed opportunity. They should roll out the Gucci carpet when their guys come through and it should be Gucci head to toe walking to their garage. It should absolutely be a fashion show. They should have the whole team, which they are going to be dressing the entire team, but it should be Gucci head to toe, drivers, team, principal, ever ybody, w and they should walk in together down this, you know, into the paddock when they're walking in and they're clo you know badging in, it should be an event. I it it would be idiotic if they don't do it that way. And and and they have four opportunities per weekend, right? Two or three, I guess, but let's four opportunities per weekend where all cameras are on them, snapping away. You know, it so yes, I meant it, I meant it literally. I think it is literally a a and then of course you have the figurative aspect of it because they can promote Gucci the entire weekend twenty four times. And I say twenty five because there's also delivery launch, which I think is massive for them too. And and a lot of people don't realize how massive delivery launches can be for these sponsors right like they might not be a big deal to us the fans like cool you're gonna show me something that's not even a real car with some logos on it but for the sponsors that have signed up really early in the in the process, they want to get because that's that might be the only time they're getting a lot of visibility. You know, uh sorry. No, I was saying one of you was mentioning about um the logos just being slapped on it. Yeah, no . Yeah. Yeah, me, yeah. It's that's not the way of of any sport anymore, but that's just not the way of motorsports. No, and those brands who don't feel like they're getting a big enough seat at the table, those are the ones that kind of you're going, oh maybe this is not all in. So for Gucci to kind of get this and go, ah that's actually pretty smart then to go, actually, maybe I've seen how other fashion brands on the fringes have not got how do we actually make an impress ion here? It's this way. We talk to our clients all the time about partnerships. We have clients who I we also do consulting on uh for brands that are adjacent to motorsport. And one thing we say is if you're trying to invest in motorsports across the board, whatever, if it's Formula One, if it's you know, IndyCar, if it is IMSA rate, you know, anything, you have to be prepared to activate and engage the audience. You can't just put your logo on a car and walk away and pretend like that's going to get you enough. It's not how it works anymore. No one cares that your logo is on the car anymore. They care about what you can do for them. So if that audience is going to buy into you. They're going to buy into do you have a story? Do people care about what you're doing? Is there what are you doing for me, the audience member? You you've now penetrated my you've come onto my team. I this is my team, Alpine, Ferrari, this is my team. Now you're coming onto my team. What are you what are you gonna do for me? Because you're trying to buy my eyeballs, right? By paying my favorite team money. So what are you gonna do for me? That's really how people look at it. And again, it's very different. It's very different than us that have been watching for 35 plus years. That I keep on coming back to. And yeah, it it's really hard to admit. But I think potentially, and your discussion of the whole Gucci thing is is exactly I think what it's about. There's potentially a larger audience that watches Formula One or the fashion or the lifestyle or the influencers say it than watches it for the racing. And this is what you're up against here. Yep. And this is why the Gucci thing is so brilliant, because it is it is a bit like a poker game. Like you could be the best poker player in the world, but if you bring a hundred dollars to a fifty million dollar all in Hold'em Texas poker, you're gonna lose. Cool. If your stake isn't big enough on the table, no matter how good you are, you are going to lose. And it seems like this is kind of where Formula One is with its sponsors right now. You better show up with a big stake, or else you're gonna be out of the game pretty soon. I wanna play. This is the highest . This is the most amount of sponsorship dollar. In fact, Formula One right now is close to surpassing the NFL in sponsorship money. Oh very close to surpassing the NFL in sponsorship dollars. I've almost bought you about twelve pieces of uh Bad Bunny Lewis Hamilton merch, yeah, Mercedes merch that I've seen show up on Facebook Mercury. Taylor Swift or something again. Uh but you you've there's a lot of sponsor dollars in there. That means there's a lot of brands. The eyeballs are still finite, right? Like it's not just unlimited eyeballs. There's still a number or there's a cap there. It might be pretty big, but there's still a cap of of people that are seeing it. What are you gonna do to get those those eyeballs? So yeah, oh I bought a I'm I'm on the side of the car. I can guarantee you most people don't even know ninety nine percent of the sponsors on a car, right? Couldn't name ninety nine percent of sponsors on a car since the new quiz topic coming up. Is it or isn't it an F1 sponsor? And and and this is it. And the the were the first brand that I talked about, that is what they were talking about. They said like well, to be honest, I uh if you asked anyone, have you seen our brand on the car? Most people would go, Oh, uh is it? I d I don't I I can't recall seeing that. I don't know. Yeah. And with McLaren. There's very few that are I so iconic, right? There's very few, even in the history of F one, that have become so iconic. Like you referred to the John Player's livery. Yes. But that's because the livery was so iconic, the Marlborough livery. We remembered Marlboro because they were it was er you know everywhere. Roth man's, yeah, Williams . Williams, uh, you know, um , Lucky Strike Lucky Strike A R but there's so few over the entire course of the sponsorship time, which really started what in the 70s or the like early 70s. There there's only so much that you can remember and that we care about, especially because at one point all we really cared about was the racing. You know, so I I we can I don't want to belabor the point, but yeah, it is. It's a lot harder now to make an impact, even though there's more eyeballs, and that's where brands can misstep when they think, oh, I'm buying into this sport where the h it's hockey stick. It's just curving way up. Look at this. Look at the growth. But you have to do it in the right way or you're just gonna get lost in the noise. You have to do something. The thing is though, Matt, a lot of those sponsors like for F1, they'll know that a lot of people will come in, pay money, then be disenfranchised, and then go away. And that's that's not the worst thing in the world for the teams. They still got the check, and someone else will come in. Yep. Yeah. But long term it isn't because you know people ask other people before they do things. And so yeah. Yeah, but if enough if enough people start to get a bad taste in their mouth about Formula One sponsorship at not the level of fifty million dollars a year, then potentially that becomes a problem. I I just want to make a small point. Like I did say that the audience for the non- racing stuff might uh it has to be bigger because it just is globally. But understand that audience pays for the toys that we get to watch and enjoy going racing. That's it. Yes ma'am I am so glad to be a good idea But no, that's just incompetence from the a bunch of different parties. Don't get upset about seeing Justin Bieber at Monaco. More money is more money is more money, and Formula One needs any motor sport needs so much money just to put on a race. It's mad. It's insane that it exists in this day and age, honestly. We we can ye yeahah, . That that's a great freaking point right there. It is insane. Especially with the way motorsports is you know operates. It's not like a standard franchise system, you know, typically it is very different. It's very different. And it relies so heavily on those sponsorship dollars. But now the dollars have to go further. It you know, there's no way around it. And good it it you can complain about it. I've I've argued with people online endlessly. I've argued with people in real life endlessly over this. I do that too. I do it far more than I care to admit. But it's I c it comes down to what I mentioned earlier. If you if you want to continue watching this, yes, yes, of course I want to continue watching this, then you've got to deal with the fact that now there's it's run by a holding comp this holding sports and entertainment company that wants to make money, Liberty Media , stupid money. Nothing wrong with it, but that's just the way it operates. And the teams are going to follow suit, and and we either continue. You know, the only way to speak. I'll end with this. The only way to make real change, if that's what you want to do, is with your wallet. If you keep going two races, if you continue subscribing to the thing, which I think in the UK, you guys subscribe something like a hundred pounds a month, right? I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to talk about it. It's the saddest thing . It's horrible.