Prioritizing Family Over Career Trajectories

You dedicated your book with an apology to a generation of women who've been misled. How have they been misled? Yeah I was essentially apologizing for the oversight that I believe both my generation It was Gen X, by the way. I was born in sixty eight. and the generation want up from me, which is the boomers which I think is more really what I'm talking about, but definitely some GX Um the oversight that they did not share with their children, their daughters in particular because I really write mostly for young women Um How to go about building a life that essentially includes marriage and motherhood that the messaging has been for decades now You can do anything you want to do without any caveats there with no explanation or nuance. You need to sort of prove yourself in the world in the way men do because equality is the goal Men and women are the same. this kind of messaging and then them pretty much to put career at the center of their lives and What they didn't do was talk about how marriage and motherhood was going to fit into their lives and into that equation if they're just singularly focused on education and career. So what ends up happening is that they get somewhere around thirty the age of thirty. and It is well known that women start to think very differently about their future because they want to start having a family and they hear that clock ticking and their priorities are shifting. And They feel stuck they feel like all these decisions that they've made up to this point were made with a different plan in mind because nobody wanted to talk about the fact that men and women are different, and so it's okay to construct a different kind of life. Why do you think it's unpopular to Wn women effect. because the goal is a political one It is about men and women being equal which doesn't mean equal in value the way I define it but U Sameness basically, interchangeability that, you know what one can do, the other can do, which by the way, is often true but it doesn't take human desire into account. So male and female desire is very, very different. and we don't talk about that because that would highlight how men and women are different. And the goal is for men and women to be the same and to have these trajectories that are the same so that Everything can be equal in fifty, fifty in this sort of utopian version of what life should look like for men and women. and it's just not working. It's been several decades now with this messaging. Yeah, I had this idea a little while ago, the bigotry of male expectations. So there's an idea called the bigotry of small expectations or of low expectations, which kind of explains some of the White Savior complex that college educated white people have around minorities that we will give you a helping hand, allow us poor people from a minority background, we will help you along.' Kind of a similar situation, I think that's happening with the way that women are being spoken to specifically by other women. which is You are only as valuable as you are able to play the role that typically men have done And you know, that In some ways sounds very liberating. So you go, wow this is independence, it's pushing women to be able to do what they want to do without the constraints that would have held them back previously. And I think that that's true. But what it forgets is that implicitly that denigrates what women have typically done. It makes them second class citizens for doing the things that they used to do. There was a famous study that happened where Hunter gatherers from ancestral times were analzed using modern Hunter gatherer societies and women slightly how do you say, motivated research team Allalyyses the dader and said women did just as much big game hunting as men and maybe even more. And what they were trying to cut across was Wen were able to do the thing that men did. Now they fucked with the data. it turned out that that wasn't really the truth at all. But what it implicitly said was that hunting was important, but gathering wasn't Eactly And how is that not misogynistic? Yeah. Like that's the most misogynistic thing that I can think of from someone that's supposed to be pro women. you're saying the thing that you do or did or your ancestors do or did naturally is not as important and only if you're able to contort yourself into the shape of a man, Are you worth something So in the same way you had women that did not fit the mold, say back in the fifties and sixties who maybe did want more R Fom life than being just a wife and mother. although I use the word just only to make a point, not because I feel that way about it. If they did want more, they felt a little odd. and now you fast forward half a century and it's the complete opposite It's important for people to understand, which I don't think people in their twenties and thirties do so much. And that is how this all really came to be. because feminis The second w, we're talking about nineteen seventies feminism. When you do a deep dive if you whichich most people aren't going to do, you know, But if you do it,. If you do it, it was so depressing to have to go through all that stuff back in the day You come to realize that the most the loudest voices that we heard from which is just a minority of women, right? It's not the everyday women. theseese are Ver small of women who had some power and clout If you study their backgrounds, you find that just about every single one of them had a very dysfunctional story or upbringing or background that causeed them to turn away either from men or marriage as a as an institution and rather than study their own story and come to terms with what happened to their really their mom and dad is what we're talking about They extrapolated that story to mean Oh, the whole system screwed up Oh, marriage is oppressive. Oh, no woman could be happy at home. I mean, they just made these stories And because they had the spotlight And people don't do that research, it sounded plausible because Maybe you're hearing if you're a woman who kind of back in the day did feel sort of whatever about motherhood, you're going that's going to speak to you. or constrained by the lack of independence. financial freedom Because you are constrained for a while. You're going It's a lot of work and it's a tremendous amount of sacrifice. It's a trade off Um that obviously I feel is one hundred and fifty percent worth it. But we don't live in that world that after so many years of all of that messaging It's not like feminism. noodybody really talks about it as a thing out in the world anymore. It's more like it's just embedded into the fabric now of society. You don't question or discuss feminism per se. It's just kind of accepted and known. Well, of course, in order for a woman to be equal to a man she's got to live that same life. You can't be powerful or happy or liberated or empowered if you're not working for pay. And if you do that, if you do the opposite of that, it's because you're specifically being countnter culture. O oppressed. Yeah. Yeahah. Yeah yeah yeah yeah, you've been conn by the patriarch. There you go. So basically you're saying modern culture has prepared women for work But not for relationships and family. one hundred and fifty percent, that's what I'm saying. And so what I'm receiving the women as a coach who are coming in and as I say, they're usually around thirty, maybe a little younger, maybe a little older and all of a sudden their priorities shift dramatically and they desperately want a baby, or they want to get married and can't find a man, or they are pregnant and they want to stay home and can't because they made all these decisions professionally, relationally, financially to set them up for a life where you are never out of the workforce And when you do that you're gonna to feel stuck and it's going to be a lot harder to extricate yourself from that once your priorities shift. And that's kind of where I come in when they call me I was like, And sometimes their husbands don't want them to do it. And it's just been this it's this mess really because of all this messaging and because going back to your initial question about apologizing to them. what I'm basically saying is I'm sorry you were set up to fail. It's wrong and you were set up because of politics. And you don't really realize that because this goes way back before you were even born. decisions that you think women in to this future that is difficult to navigate when they grow up So I think there are three main decisions that women make throughout their twenties that they can either set them up well or cause them to struggle more later. The first one is professional So I've always been a very big proponent of finding and choosing a profession and a major in school, let's say that works well with the kind of life you want to have down the line. So you have to really Think ahead. and play the long game when you're making these decisions So instead of getting a degree in some major that isn't going to do anything for you. You're not going to make any money from it find something practical and not just that pays a decent wage, but also that can be worked around how you see your life in your thirties and forties So in other words, I mean to simplify this, it's rather than putting career at the center of your life and trying to fit men in marriage and motherhood in around that, I want them to do the reverse I want them to putut family first and make these decisions orbit around that. And that begins with the kind of career that you can A, move in and out of more easily, ones that can be done maybe part time or from home ones that give you control you own something, you know, like you could start a business later, just basically flexibility So that when you're older and your priorities do shift, which for most women, they do. You have options P say to the women that go Why should I have to give that up I don't want to give that up. I don't Why should I have to why should I have to sacrifice and build my career around Family life. I should There's no should, but you will want you will very likely want to. And if you set yourself up the way you're doing it, you'll have no options. If you do it the other way, you'll at least have the option because what you're going to What feel like is important at thirty two is going to be very different from what you feel like at twenty two. You just don't even realize how you're going to change. I think that's one of the challenges with this, right that you're saying women who are not thinking about family literally don't even have it on their bingo card. Exactly. You need to think about a thing you're not planning for and currently don't want. It takes an unbelievable amount of counter culture pressure to be able to say None of my friends think about this. None of modern media is suggesting that I do this. I don't even feel the desire to do this. and actively, if I got pregnant right now, I don't even know what I do about it. I should start to construct a life that is future proofing me in order to do that. It's a huge going into against the tide moment. It's so huge, Chris. I mean, it's a big ass, right? Yeah. I mean and it doesn't surprise me that women aren't doing it. No, because it's the running joke is, well, I'm trying to you when you're twenty two before you come to me at thirty two, but at twenty two, you're not interested, but at thirty two, you're like Help me, help me. And I'm like You know, it's so hard. I mean, one of the hardest things about coaching for me has been hearing these women and knowing that All of this stuff could have been avoided if they had just been told the truth. Have you considered In school in the UK we have something called scared and Straight. I don't know whether you have the same thing. It's not gay conversion. It's gettingting prison guards in to schools and they explain how dangerous it is in prison and how bad of a time it is. And the whole point is to try and warn young, mostly boys, I guess girls too off of the life of crime. And I went to a very, very working class school in a very, very working class town with lots of crime in the UK. And I remember this guy came through and he had this sock which had batteries in. and he was explaining about how the guys get into fights and they use these sort of maces in socks to like you get in scraps with and he banged it on the table. and I remember I was so fucking scared. I went to bed that night. like it really did for me, I was like, I cannot go to jail. That sounds fucking terrifying. Or they boil the kettle and put loads of sugar in and they make syrup and they throw it on people and it burns them and stuff. It was fucking terrifing. I was like twelve. It was terrifying. Have you considered I do That's comparable. Have you considered getting the women who are thirty two to do an intervention with the women that' nineteen and about to choose their major. in college and being like, hey, Why don't we organize a local meetu and this It's not quite pan generational, but it's actually the important bit women who are facing this problem or facing this challenge, Sh I say It' going to have a conversation. That's a really good. That's a good point. No. The answer is I have not thought about that, but that's a really great ide. That's right back. Don't forget. Exactly.. Well because it's so Um, I don't It's really scary. I mean, these women are really really It's hurting their marriages, obviously. It's not just hurting them personally, but if for example, if you want to stay home, but you can't, because you've set up this life. It's going to hurt their marriage. So then the marriage is falling apart, the family' falling apart. So this has a downward effect that someomehow I think it's really clear for people who are very marriage minded young. Like there are a lot of people who I always knew I wanted you to be a mum What's that? I always knew I wanted to be. Yeah. like they get it. I mean, they just like, well, yeah, of course. I. I'm not so concerned with them because they're gonna to set things up sort of naturally. I mean, I did that, for example But It's much harder today because as you say And that's exactly right. That's why I'm a counter cultural author. I mean, everything I do is basically, my motto is, if the culture says, do it, don't. and you will be successful. But if you're following it, you're going to struggle But the average American adult is likely to be divorced, has less than one K in the bank and they're obese. That's the average That's the middle of the bell curve So following the path that everybody else Treads sounds like a Outsourcing wisdom to the crowd, but it's actually a reliable route to a life that you probably don't want And what do you think separates the people who get that from the ones who don't You know, not listening to what everybody else says. So you can you give me an example of the Protypical thirty two year old person that comes to you. What career choice have they made? What did they do in their twenties? why is that an issue now? Because a lot of women might think, well, if I choose a high powered career, that means that I've earned more money, which means that I can step back from it So I'd say the biggest issue there. that cannot be overlooked. And one of the reasons or one of the One of the ways I think this began to go really downhill is St student debt which is a massive problem in America. And That messaging came from people who or parents who were like Does doesn't matter what it costs. This is I mean This is the most important thing ever, so it doesn't matter if you have to go into debt to do it because you're just going to pay it back Right The problem with that is by the time you're done with all the schooling and you've gotten the job And then you're starting to be paid enough to even begin to pay it back All of a sudden you're around thirty years old. and then this other thing comes into play. so that And this leads into, you know, home ownership, these all these financial issues that were a result of decisions that were made againgain, because they're not playing the long game because nobody taught them Listen, if you go into this much debt and then you get married and maybe you want to stay home, you're not going to feel like you can because you owe all this money and your money iss not going to go as far and you're not going to feel like you can have a house. And it just it just Um It's not fleshed out in the way that it needs to be both young. I mean I have a son and a daughter and everything my husband and I taught was for both of them. Of course your trajectories are going to be different because one's a boy and one's girl. and that's another thing that's really taboo because nobody wants to childildren. opposite sex children differently because you're supposed to be the same The reality is that Girls and women's bodies do something that a man's doesn't And that has to be taken into account when mapping out a life in a way that's unique to them Most people have no idea where their testosterone levels sit. But what if I told you there was a solution? somethinghing that identifies low tea faster than a high school bully? and it won't cost you all your lunch money. That's where fununction comes in. Gives you access to over one hundred sixty lab tests, including a deep dive into your full hormone paddle. Every result is reviewed by clinicians, anythingthing out of range flagged and you get clear explanations with a personalized protocol with actionable next steps So if something's off, you know exactly what to do about it. Whether you just need to go to the gym more or playay Creed louder in your car. Function will tell you exactly where your test are runown and everything else stands. Normally, this level of testing would usually cost thousands, but with function, it's three hundred sixty five dollars a year. That's one dollar a day to stop guessing with your health and start knowing. And right now you can get twenty five dollars off, bringing it down to three hundred and forty bucks. So get the exact same blood panels that I do and save twenty five dollars by going to the link in the description below or heading to function health. com slash modern wisdom using the code modern wisdom A check out. Okay, so first thing is choosing your P worked education career around building it around the family. Yes, flexibility. basasically. Instead of these careers that are going to literally take over your life. you're working twenty four seven, you have no space in your life to even find love or nurture love or get married and have children, and you're not thinking about it. And then all of a sudden you're older and you're saying, where of all the good men gone? I don't see them. It's There's just a downward ye. St first orry you said there was three. Oh yees, sorry So the second one is, what do I say professional and then relational. So this is another big one that's controversial, I guess. It used to be that men are Ms and dads would tell their daughters, you know, don't bring home any man who doesn't have a job Right or isn't going somewhere, let's say that's, of course notot done anymore because you're supposed to take care of yourself. Yout You don't need a man to take care of you So There are a lot of women who are getting with men who are who haven't found their professional footing, let's say. Let's put it that way. or they're going to bank on the fact that they will find it someday and You just basically don't want to marry a man who hasn't found themselves professionally because you, again, going back to you're going to have fewer options down the road because you in fact, You do need a man on whom you can depend financially, if only for a short period of time and Why should that be controversial Here's something that's really interesting. Um It took a poll of Americans and seventy one percent of American adults believe that it's important for a man to be able to provide for his family Guess how many think a woman should be able to or should should do it fifty. seventy one to thirty two That says to me We know instinctively that women become vulnerable when they have a child and that they're going to need support, both emotional and financial for X period of time And that that is in part why we need men to Um, embrace their providing and perection providing and protecting u desire Um and womomen aren't sort of expected to be the providers because do we really want women to getet pregnant Cry that baby for nine months birth, breastfeed, go through all of that B the way, get back to work You should be working too while you're doing that I mean, nobody really thinks that's a good idea that you hear because why not just do that too? You know, it's not it isn't natural And if you're experiencing it When you really do experience it and you look at it, you're like I ask her to go do this right now. She's very busy and she's very tired and she's depleted and she has an appendage hanging from her that needs her And so we know that instinctually, and I think that's the reason for that gap Yeah, it's an interesting one because I wonder how many women Oh allowing themselves to pick up the slack of make choices where they thought, well, I'm independent already So financially, maybe I'm going pay a little bit less attention his future prospects in this way. you know the top quintile so the top twenty percent of female owners and the bottom forty percent of male owners are mating with the woman as the primary breadwinner. So the top twenty percent of women are mating down socioeconomically and the bottom forty percent of men are mating up socioeconomically. That's a big chunk. That's a lot. That's a lot that's going on. So yeah, I wonder how many women are basically picking up the slack which creates this self reinforcing loop of I need to work harder in order to be able to provide me the size and amount of freedom that I think that I need in order to be able to get a family off the ground without realizing that it kind of is a trap. It's a trap. They're locking themselves in. I mean, it's true that we have a big problem with men not in the world in the way they used to be in producing. and that's a subject of its own. But there's a lot that women are doing to themselves Again, I don't fault them. they were tutored to do this. They were schooled to live this life. It's just that That's why they when they reach out to me, they're like, why didn't anybody tell me about itb? It's hard to understand, make the argument, you should be less financially independent In what world does less financial independence make sense because that's not the right framing. Framing is What do you want? You know, why are we here? What's the most important thing in life? What do you really want in your life. What do you want your life to look like? What do you foresee your daily life to be like when you're thirty five, forty, forty five, like What kind of relationship do you want with your family? What are your interests in work? Like you have to sort of pan out and decide what's the most important thing to you at the end of the day? And I believe and maybe this is just a parenting thing Be I do think a lot of this is really about parenting. I do. I think that the culture can be the culture, but if parents were stronger in their opposing messages, that it would be I feel like that's our best hope is through parenting because it's very hard to change the culture Um teaching what really matters and why we're here and U is it really so that you can be as riches you want or as u well known I mean, are you is status your goal or is meaning and your relationships and family your goal? And those, I hate to say it, are just they're competing. They just they compete with one another and we don't like that. We want them we want to create a world where they can coexist in extreme forms simultaneously. You know, you can be All of this And you can still have this all the same time. As well known and rich as possible whilst also having the family that you've always wanted. And you made a comment on one of your shows recently. What's that saying that someone said what you see in private? praised for in public, you pay for in private That is exactly what I'm talking about. So you go out and you do this thing, but no one's talking about what really goes on at home to allow that to happen and how you're suffering. Yeah, you can't I got I gott to bring this up. I gott to bring this up. Are you familiar with Emma Greed Do know who she is? No. Emma Greed is the British Kardashian whisperer entrepreneur who is the co founder and CEO of the Good American clothing brand and a founding partner of SkIMs But lately skins She's been getting way more attention, something else, how she parents her four kids, ages twelve, ten and four are twins. Ia I want to show you. Well, and you're very honest about how you view parenting. I have to ask you about this. You did an interview with the Wall Street Journal. And the headline was The Kardashian Whisperer who says three hours with her kids is enough That's based on what you say in your book, You call yourself a three hour maxum raised a lot Eyebrows, as you know. what did you mean by that a three hour Well, What I meant by it was exactly what I said and I really don't want to backpedal. You know, the first thing that I thought when I saw that headline was like, wow, that would never have been written about a man Nobody would ever have written that about my husband The important thing is that I bring a level of honesty to everything I say because when you work Monday through Friday The idea that you've got this entirely free weekend to just be with your kids and orientate a whole world around your children is just not a reality errands to run, I have things to do. And because we're in a social media culture that says you know, you have to arrange every pray day and count every macro and decide what your kids can and can't eat and make sure that they're constantly entertained, it's impossible. We're setting women up for a failure and we're holding women to poss standards. So what I meant when I said I was a three hour mum is that I probably spend like three hours with my kids doing the things that they want to do, entertaining them, being down on the floor and playing with them. then I have other things to do. And that's just the truth that it's just a reality. And I think a lot of parents feel exactly the same that you're depleted after a week at work. and actually you only have a couple of hours. but isn't that good enough? I think it is. What do you think of that? I have so much to say about that. I don't know where to begin. Um In fact when I wrote my first book and that was twenty five years ago, you can't even believe how many of these things. This of course, we didn't have social media, but it was all print But the amount of stuff that I read like that from working hardcore working mothers who basically want to make the argument that, you know, good enough, good enough mothering. justust give them a box of cereal. they'll be fine for dinner. if you're too tired to cook, that kind of thing Um, I have a theory that this over parenting craze of the last, what do you think that is fifteen years U came about as a result sort of after women had started mothers, excuse me had started going into the work and mas and finding out for themselves that wow, okay this doesn't work well with especially with littles, but full with motherhood with young children and They had to cut corners. And so Um, My argument has always been that those are two full time jobs in the same way you can't be a doctor and a lawyer simultaneously. noobody would suggest you do that. It's no different from full time motherhood. and whatever she's doing or people are doing that are full time They clash, they inherently clash and something's got to give and you have to make choices So Um there's a couple different elements to that. On the one hand, I want to say, you know when you are home full time, let's say with your children It is true that you would only spend a couple of hours, as she puts it down on the floor with them. doing something of you that they want to do really intensely It's not like stay home moms are any different from her in that regard. The difference is that the rest of the hours of the day you are physically present and available So as an at home mom, you're not supposed to be on the floor twelve hours a day engaged with your child as if they're the center of the universe. That's not motherhood It got skewed when when this transformation happened when moms were trying to mother with leftover time and feeling intense about it, like, oh my gosh, I haven't been here all day so I have to really make this one or two hours count. And then they came up with a conclusion about Well, it's not supposed to be this way. Let's just say sccrew that that's a misreading of really what it It's not that you can be absent ten hours and then come home for two hours and be intense. It's when you're there and you are present. There's so much going on that outside of the one on one care. I don't know if I'm making this very clear. But it seems like what Emma would say is she's making it work She's doing three hours and the kids have at least. I mean. Well what do you think's happening to kids that are getting three hours with mum over a weekend Well three hours on a Saturday and three hours on a Sunday. Well, it's more about what's happening the rest of the time. It's not I mean, those three hours might be great, but what's happening the rest of the the hours of the week You can't fill in for an absence with a couple of hours a week with small children, it just doesn't work that way. That whole quality time thing is bogus. That's not real. Children need tons and tons and tons of quantity time, not quality time. It's just not something you can just do in leftover time. I don't know how else to say it. Why do you think Emma believes that you can, then? Be Because she needs to Owise Her life wouldn't work if she actually entertained something else. So if I don't know how I don't know her and I don't know how many children she has and I don't know how young they are. Oh you said four right. eight and two, four year olds. Okay, but it doesn't sound like this is a new revelation to her. It seems like this is her approach to this has been her approach to parenting. Sure for For a while. she's been the CEO of SkM people do it all the time. But's got a lot of daycare help, a lot of handler right, child carere ass. For example, if we were to present to I don't want to talk about her per se, but just somebody like that present to her information about the early years, like you spent hours with Erica Comasar talking about what goes on in the early years and attachment and all of that A person who has a different philosophy about it will not be able to take that information in because in order to do that, you'd have to comp completely rearrange your life and look at it very differently. What you're suggesting here is that in order for this kind of life to work where there's only three hours with kids, there are some unseen, but very powerful attment attachment costs that are going to happen to the kids one hundred percent. There's damage that's being done, but it's just not visible. But the damage that would be done if you had to leave work would be immediately visible say that last second want l the damage if you were. If you had to leave work. So if you had there are no solutions. There's only trade offffs. You're right. And the trade offff that you have to make here is in order for me to work as much as I want to work, Yes, the kids don't get to see me, but they're fine. Yeah It's the assumption. Yeah. Erica's work is saying No they're not and this isn't good for them. R price gets pushed down the line. You know, the attachment issues only show up when they're trying to date in their twenties and thirties. That's it. However Alternative, the other trade offff, which would be I need to leave work, that's paid immediately. Yes. That gets paid right now So it's I mean, we're not even allowed to talk about this. let's be honest. So I mean, not only not only does do we not address it until years later when they're in their relations own relationship, we don't even talk about the early years. We don't talk about Daycare being bad, for example. So keep on putting my phone in it's fine.. Exactly So Anyway, I don't know how we got on to her what I said per se, but you were just talking about this like Cultural pressure on women produce in the same way as men do.. What does the cultural pressure on women to produce in the same way as men to women. Yeah So I don't think at the beginning it feels necessarily negative I think when When men and women are young, their lives do look remarkably similar You go to school, you get a job, you're working, you're not married with kids yet. So you kind of do look interchangeable, right? You're doing the same things Everybody's fine My argument is that it's really not until you start to either think about children Or then really when you have them our differences become glaring between women and men So for example When a woman goes through all of that physically in being pregnant, giving birth, breastfeeding, and being at home in those early months or years, nurturing When she has a baby, her first inclination is not to financially provide for the baby Your first inclination is a woman is to take care of him or her. and to nurture him or her. That is natural to you your desire to work for pay at least in that moment for those, let's just say months ramps down Generally speaking, when a man becomes a father His desire to provide ramps up My theory about that is really that I feel like because there's such a difference in men and women, as mothers and fathers in those early years It's so obvious and natural that a baby needs his mother because you're physically attached and there's so much that she's doing And I feel like a father is sort of He's there more to support her. and to get things done so that she can be with her baby he doesn't really feel needed in the same way. And so his response to, oh my gosh, now I have a baby. I've got a is immediately to ramp up his desire to provide. That's my theory about it. When you have a child, it really just makes our differences glare and they just continue It just continues. There's so many things that go on after the baby comes where marriages start to strain. because they are operating in Sameness mode, equality mode, fifty fifty tip for tat. you do this, I do this, how much did just And it's a shit show, honestly, it really is. You cannot go into marriage with that mentality or you're going to be really unhappy And so Anyway, going back to your question is I just feel like Because those differences between us don't show up until later, I think women don't realize until later how much they've been misled and how much it is hurting them until they're in the throes of it What are you learning about bread winning lums This is a really difficult subject for people to talk about Again, going back to What we're saying is that we're supposed to be the same, so there shouldn't be any difference truth of the matter is For most women, and not all, there are some women who are happy and fine in you know, living a more traditional man's life for life But for most women Um It has been my experience doing this for so many years Eventually No matter how be they may be in their career at first or you know, being independent, earning money, whatever, if they're going to be a wife and mother. And if you're not, that might be a separate conversation. Ultimately that pressure to produce becomes very taxing onnce you've become a wife and mother, especially a mother really a mother and The more and more you are the primary breadwinner And oftentimes this happens necessarily consciously, but as the relationship grows. And if you are becoming the primary provider or the main provider And I mean, if there's a real gap here, especially if you have a stay at home dad let's say, that's almost an extreme version of that Um They become resentful. and It's not I really it's it's not their fault. It's just it's not natural for them to be doing both of those things in my opinion, simultaneously. Unscathed Meaning you can But you're wearing yourself into the ground. this is why we have the mental health crisis we do. This is why we're having marriagagees strained as we do, because you're asking them to do too much You cannot do both of these things simultaneously without breaking down. because they're not meant to be done simultaneously But the only way you could understand that is if you acknowledge the incredible amount of work that goes into raising a baby to become a healthy adult If you dismiss that or think that's just something you can do on the side, you're not really this isn't going to register for you you know, you have and that goes back to the whole Um career at the center and thinking these things can orbit around it. and it just doesn't work that way A man who's providing in the main role, he's not going to be taxed by that. He's going to be emboldened by that He wants to do that. He's a provider and a protector. It's in his DNA And it's unique to him. And it's special for him, you know, and we've taken that away from it, I think In other news, Shopify powers ten percent of all e commerce companies in the US. They are the driving force behind GymmsShark and Skims and Aloe and Ntonic which is why I partnered with them because when it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they are best in class. Their checkout is thirty six percent better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. and with shop pay, you can boost conversions up to fifty percent. Basically, you didn't get into business to learn how to code or build a website or deal with the inventory on the bke end, you just want to get down to creating and promoting an awesome product. And Shopify takes all of the mess off your hands and allows you to focus on the job you actually came here to do, designing and selling the thing that you love. So upgrade your business and get the same checkout that we use with Newtonic We Shopify. Right now, you can sign up for a one dollar per month trial period by going to the link in the description below or heading to shhopify d. com slash modern wisdom, all lowercase. That's shopify d. comot Sash water wisdom You've got a line. men want their wives happy And if they believe she wants to provide, they instinctively step back. after all, if she's bringing in enough Why work harder or work more So I I truly believe that Men need an incentive to work hard they need something to work , not just work for work's sake to work towards something, a reward, accolades to produce to be useful And You know, when you have an entire generation of women saying. You know I can have the babies raise them and I can take care of them financially too Where are they going to go? What's going to happen to men? I mean, it's happening now. They're pulling back. They're pulling back because they're saying I guess nobody needs me, so You know, it would be a lovely world if we could say, well, they should just do it for themselves, you know, the sake of themselves. but I just don't Men do that. I think they need incentive And u the greatest incentive of all has always been providing for a family And I think it's just been disastrous for them, honestly that they've been told. We don't need that anymore Yeah there's some interesting paradoxes here that, um Dead be dads, fathers that don't contribute much. almost universally even by feminist scene as It would be better if you were contributing more, especially financially and making it easier on the wife but also put forward that women shouldn't need to rely on their male partner and that They shouldn't really be looking for their financial stability that much at all because I have my thing going on and you can be a stay home dad. and simimilarly There's a lot of complaints around the lack of maternity leave in the US., which I think is fucking barbaric. Like it's insane. And also Your career is the most important thing that you'll ever do in your life and that if you are not working as a mum, I have a friend who Um H had a bunch of kid then K and her husband stopp She was working while they had the first ones, and then the most recent one, she decided to be a stay home mom and she went to a playdate with her three year old, the newest one and a bunch of other mums and they were all working mums. And one of the mums turned to her and she said, You know what? I really wish that I hadd known you while you were working, you know. while you had a lot going on And she said it felt like she's never felt that Ht buy another comment from someone. So I'm glad you brought that up because that I mean, you've really hit a nugget there of what makes so many women today feel they can't succumb to their inherent desire. to just be a mom. and I say just on purpose, not Because in their minds it's just being a mom. And I'm kind of been here on to not need to be anything more than. And I've been like, this is the whole thing. This is it. This is why we're on the planet. This is to build relationships, build a family. There is work that goes into this. It doesn't kids don't just come about while you go do your thing, you know, it' it's work because it's not work that is paid We as we as we are today as a country that is materialistic, individualistic, all about stuff status We don't value it anymore. We don't value anything that doesn't Um, have a nice giant Paycheck associate generate economic return. Yeah. And this is new. I mean, really, this is new. like this is new in the last. I don't know. I wouldn to say I want to say quarter of a century. I've been writing about this for about twenty five years And it's been interesting to see where things were with this subject then and now. It's just gotten worse and worse and worse in terms of our values and this materialism that we live in today And it's so twisted that when you start with that base of money, money, money, status, career, whatever You're never going to be successful in your professional life and excuse me, in your personal life and in your relationships because your focus is on the wrong thing I mean, this is true for men and women, by the way. Your position here it's probably worth restating it if it's not obvious. What you're saying is that your family life will be more important and more rewarding to you than your professional life. Because if you don't have that frame, or if you're unaware of that frame None of this makes sense.. Exactly. That's exactly. The only other caveat here which we need to add onto at some point is, well there are material constraints. I need to have food on the table, I need to have a roof over my head. So it's not just I can live my life by my values exclusively. There are also genuine material Yeah exactly. Right. We gott to talk about things around at the ro, but your point here is Start with that base. Correct. Start with that value at the nucleus. in your experience, how many women have you worked with I mean I've been coaching for about five years. And then the women I heard from before that were all from my book. so f I don't Hots of thousands. Not one on one with thousands, but I've heard from thousands over the years. It's ht. Yeah In your experience How is it that women realized that their career was the most important thing and the family thing didn't really matter that much zero I mean, there's a selection effect. They're coming to you for a reason, right? the sort of things that you're writing about the independent lean in ladies are maybe not going to Gravitate your content, but Nobody is telling women and I get in trouble all the time for this. I' never and nobody that's ever been on this show has told women to have kids that they don't want to have No one that want that doesn't want to have kids should have kids. In fact, I'm actively opposed to women who don't want to have kids having kids. I think it's horrible idea. I think it's hrible horrible horrible horrible ide However Given that most women end up having kids in the end, And eighty six percent by the time the end of their maternal But don't forget that women who to the end of their biological clock. They hit menopause and can't have kids, but didn't have kids. Yes. eightighty percent of them didn't intend to be childless. F out of five F out of five women donon't have children After menopause didn't intend. which showed you how small. correct. So yeah. the ten percent of women can't Very unfortunate, lots and lots of pain associated with that biologically. Around about ten percent of women end up realizing that they didn't want to don't want to. That is a group as well eighty percent of women who don't have kids Did not do that by choice. Dn't intend to they're not child as by choice. is correct.. Yes. yeah. ye and uh, Listen, instinct is strong. we are I mean We are governed by our instincts, whether we don't like to talk about it that way because we social we want to set up a social system the way we want it to be, but it's going against what our desires are. and to me One of my, um, One of my lines is that societal progress does not undo biological leanings. I mean, we are what we are. We have to work with You know, I say move with the biological tide, not against it. The more you move with it, the smoother your life will be. Every time you're trying to move against it, you're fighting You know, I don't want to be this way. I don't want to be this way. It shouldn't be this way And then you're just miserable all the time Do you think Mothers are denigrated in modern society, like are women punished socially foring traditional lives Um I don't know if I'd say punished. I just think that they feel that's the wrong choice to make. That's what I think that they just canannot shout it from the rooftops, cannot openly talk about it or plan for it. They have to sort of. Yout think womomen are seen as second class citizens when they become mothers versus when they stay working To me, it seems it doesn't seem like there's that much the pedestalization of mothers seems to come from a counter culture standpoint or a tradwife conservative talking point, like some Christian white picket fence thing And to me, I don't see that much pro motherhood cont Oh no, yes, no, I agree with that. I agreed lady was on Oprah and she did two million plays a couple of weeks ago If you're asking me whether that whether the non motherhood women, I don't know how you want to define it gets more play in society. Well, yeah, that's like ninety ten. But my art, but you know, it's always that's mostly because The women who are wives and mothers in't even happy doing it are quietly living their lives. They're not in front of. they're not sitting here, right? So you're not going to hear from them. There's millions of them. It's just they're not represented because the people who are represented in the media, not so much alternative media, but all these years in mainstream media R The minority of women for whom family is not the focus That's really important to understand because prior to YouTube and social media and all of that All of the information was coming from this small group of women who do not represent the average woman. And that's why it's skewed and makes the masses of women feel like there's something wrong with them. when in fact, they're the norm. And those women you're hearing from or not. I the most influential most influ Exactly You say who you marry and how that marriage fares will have more of an effect on your happiness and well being than anything else that you do Do you think women are aware of this Where would they hear it? who's sang it to them I mean You're not allowed to talk about it and when when really, when would they hear? If their parents aren't passing that on. Seriously, if their parents are not passing that on or some family member They're not going to hear it in the media. They're not going to hear it at school. They're not going to hear it on whereere would you hear it? Well, the Disney movies wouldn't be pushing that kind of a meme as much as it would have done in the nineties,, mayaybe the two thousands I mean The reality is you can change your career, you can change a job. peopleople do it all the time. You can shift your interests and All of that but who you Mary, if you have children with them You were tied with them until you die if you have children. Now obviously there's divorce, but A, who wants to promote that? That's not really, you know any what anybody wants to do. and B, you've created a family and so you are You are linked It has more impact. on what direction your life takes then you than a career choice becausecause again, you can change a career. You can't just change out a husband or a wife. I mean, people try all the time doesn't really work very well. Second marriages are notoriously more flimsy than first, thirird, even more so, fourth, even. I mean, just go down the line. It's not really an answer for most people So we need to give it, in my opinion, the Wait that it deserves and the attention that it deserves and we're so afraid to talk about it And that says so much about where we are today in what we value that we can't even openly talk about What's great about marriage Hm. I mean, if it's the most important decision that someone's going to make, If they want to make it. I'm not telling you have to make it. Yeah. If you don't want to get married, don' get married. M most people do. Most people do get married. eventually. its if it's as important as it is for the people who want to do it. isn't that strong evidence against rushing into a marriage. U No I would say, well, I don't think anybody should rush into marriage for sure. but I I would say it's an argument for early education about marriage and early education about U Gosh, there's so much education that young people don't get when it comes to the subject because again, we're not allowed to talk about it Um take the fertility crisis. you know, We don't we're not allowed to talk about the fact that even You're am friends here. That you have a biological clock. I mean, why should I not talk about that? It's I can't change it. I didn't make it. It's just is, right? So let's work with it. Let's create a life that works with what is, not with what we wish. would be And so that's a taboo subject to say that. You can't tell that to women You know, so okay, well, the reality is a forty year old man can marry a thirty year old woman and still have a family And it's not going to be the same if a woman's for and looking for a husband. And let's talk about that. even though it's painful to talk about or whatever What does dating with purpose look like for modern women? How do you advise women to date well You know Things have gotten so bad on thatp in that department So much so over the last ten or fifteen years, really ten years I'm almost to the point where I'm like, just Just get it out on the table in the first three dates. getet what on the table? Like what you want and what you're looking for and You know, it I have this theory that you just you weed out the people who aren't on the same page as you when you just Get it on the table. What does For example, Okaykay Yeah. we're in a day. We're in a day. Okay I mean, the first date, no, the first date is just who are you? Hello? Where are you from? What are you like that? Okay It's our first It's our third day. Perfect Presumably, if you're on a third date with someone, you are getting into deeper conversations than onm the first by nature of yourre talking more, so more things are going to come up You're going to talk about your background, presumably. And you're going to talk about your history and what you want, I think, I guess, I did naturally in the conversation, you're going kind of learn whether or not the person is familyily focused or career focused or wanting something temporary or wantning something permanent I feel like by the third date you would know that Do you disagree And so Wife It's just so much pretending going on. What would you fear?ine imagine for a second that we're on the date. Let's role playay this, and you're going to say, you're going ask me some of the questions that you think are important for women to ask. You didn't prepare me for this, Chris. Look, You've taught enough women how to do it. but your cards on the table I mean, tellell me about your If it didn't come up naturally, tell me about your childhood Tell about your pnts are your parents marri Let's have the conversation. Are parents married?y Why is that important? Because It's gonna to skew how you think about marriage, probably. Okay. Do you have a good impression of it? Do you have a bad impression of it? All right, what else Um What, um, And then about your work, Tell me about your work. You know, um Where are you with things? What I mean, it sounds this sounds more like a business meaning, but It would be more natural than that. You'd be talking about what you like and what you do for work And that would tell me where you are in the scheme of things And if you asked me, depending on where I was, that would tell you a lot about me. let's see, we go all the way back to my twenties. I'll just tell you with my husband I was a teacher Um And so he knew right away that I love children He knew that well I was married before, so that was There's a great example of just something that comes up naturally. So oh, well, what happened? Well And then you get into different values and priorities, which is what happened with my first marriage. and he wanted different things Oh well, well then what do you want I want to have children. I want to be home with them ing, ding ding, ding, ding is going to tell the guy Well, okay, she wants to be home with him. I guess we're gonna live in a oneome family if I stick with this girl. What's wrong with that? I mean, it just gets it out, you know, and if you don't want it So you should be asking the next person. You should be asking things like Do you want kids how many? Yes but it doesn't necessarily have to be so directed, like I said. It would come up naturally, like I just explained. And he knew just from what I said without having to say, do you want that, you know? The audience are charismatic artists. so they understand they understand how to get something across in a normal way whilst being higher abnormal internally ninety five percent of people don't get enough fiber, which is why Mentus built fiber pllus because hitting your daily fiber target through food alone is actually kind of hard. harder than your last toilet trip. Fiber isn't just a digestion thing. It's the foundation of your gut health which drives how well you absorb nutrients, how stable your energy is, and how quickly you recover. If your gut isn't dialed Everything else you're doing is working at a fraction of its potential. FiberPlus is a three in one formula built to address digestion, gut barrier strength, and blood sugar stability. All at once. That's why I plan to make my next big dump. Momentous Best of all, they offer a thirty day money back guarantee. so you can buy it and try it for twenty nine days. and if you don't love it, they'll give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to thirty five percent off your first subscription and that thirty day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentus dot com slash modern wisdom and using the code mododern wisdom. A check out. That's L IV E MoM ENo US dot com slash modern wisd modernisdom Check out I think you're right. I think that being intentional with dating is one of the most important things because I think about Basically the way that the human attachment system works, like not anxious avoidance secure, but the human romantic attachment system Basically one Psychedelic trip but hopes that you can attach yourself to this person sufficiently quickly while you're in the drug state before you get to the My brain's come back online state. And I wonder how many people I started hanging out with this person and you know, they went nice and hot and I kind of got a bit obsessed with them. They used to text me all the time. then, you know, we just started hanging out a bit more and we didn't really move in, but we started staying over each other's houses as a bit. and then we decided, well, we might as well move in and that was like nine months or something in then. And then we got golden Retriever, because we thought for Christmas you' get me gold R retrie. I've always weed a gold R retriever. and then And then Yeah, we just sort of stayed together and things kind of became comfortable and you know, we settled into and then We so Like you get engaged. That's what people do. you get engaged and then we you know thear the wedding came along and Things were okay and we had the first kit. Be before you know it, you've fallen backward into a relationship and cohabiting situation and a dog and an engagement and a marriage and kids, that at no point you actually chose. one hundred percent. You didn't choose this thing this person was around you, they were in your proximity while you didn't have any serotonin in your. That's exactly right. And that is why I have been against cohabitation from day one. And I was saying it in a different way because people It wasn't from a religious perspective or sex perspective. It was't It doesn't serve you well to do that for exactly the reason that you describe. People often slide into marriage. as a result of everything you just described as opposed to making a conscious, well thought out decision in advance. This is who I want to marry. And you need objectivity for that. you need separation. You need to home to your own subation. What advise people to do instead not live together Lve their own? No I mean, once they're engaged, ye, that's fine. Once you've made, it's about making the decision You make the decision from a distance from living in your own space Will you marry me? Yes. Ah And then go about your business. But if you do it before It's like you said, it's all skewed because well, you're here, we're in it now. You're laoping as a married couple without having actually got the wedding done whichich makes you think that the wedding becomes more of a formality than a decision. Yes. It's just a natural progress. We're already kind of married, right? We're already doing it. I mean, how many people have gone, Well, you know, we're already kind of doing it. That's a really I've never even thought about it that way The cohabitation effect, which you're probably familiar with that gets explained away by a variety of different reasons. but I've never thought about it as keepeeping you and your partner separate until you make the decision to be engaged, because what lots of people would say is, I'm not going to marry someone that I don't know if I can live with them No, but it doesn't. But the difference is you can call off an engagement way easier than can call off a marriage. And if you're saying The decision that you make is actually the engagement Right? Once you're on that set of train tracks The marriage sort of comes along for the ride, but it is a reversible decision. signignificantly more reversible than getting. Yes the fucking family together and all of the things and then you've done this big ceremony in. U If you say You shouldn't make the decision of the engagement. You shouldn't make the proposal until you're sure that this is a good thing to do And the best way to be sure is to have most of your faculties and logic intact, which means that keeping a little bit of distance is a good idea. And I'm sure that people are gonna spend weeks together traveling and going on holiday and staying together and stuff, but permanent locked in living together. kindind of caus you to fall backwards into marriage without thinking about it because it's a natural progression. But then you have still this window of a testing ground of, okay, can we live together? Like can we lock this in from engagement up until marriage. means you're not getting slip rereamed, you're not secretly getting the marriage thing pushed along, but it does allow you to go Oh, fucking hell, like I didn't realize that this was going to be such a big deal and maybe this is something mean during that engagement period. Yes, exactly I wonder what the stats are on if there are any stats on Wellbe that' maybe that's what you're looking up withith you if you called off the engagement, is that what you want to know? Yeah on you live once you're engaged and living together. Yeah my point my point just together. Yeah, my point is just yeah, engaged and living together. If you don'tve together until you're engaged, it means that you're not forced to get engaged because you're living together. Right. And if you live together during the engagement, it still is a moderately reversible door If you go far this does not work because most people's and mine, mine, I'm unmarried, right My concern would be what you're telling me that I'm going to not just get engaged, but get married to this person without knowing if we could live together That seems like a large risk What if our lifestyles are incompatible? What if give an example, because you know There were eons when people didn't live together until they got married, right? More so than there were people who did And they stayed married more than we do today I'm not convinced that's necessarily because of this reason. No, no, no, no, no, no, but I'm saying my question would be, what do you think they did Do you think it was horrible? but what do you imagine it would be like if you moved in after you were married as opposed to living together. What are the kinds of things Be't doesn't marriage require you to figure that out anyway for the rest of your life? To a degree, it does. I think what people have and I' probably speaking for an entire generation of young men and women who Have an ambient fear around there being some fundamental incompatibility that I have with my partner, which is only revealed once we live together I don't think that's unreasonable to think that it might be the case, that there might be something in there I understand what you mean, which is if you've spent enough time together, you've stayed over each other's houses, you've spent weeks and maybe even months traveling together and doing things and stuff like that, you know what their sleep patters. Yeah. So what do you mean by like what are the things you learn? You mean dishes I mean, stupid things? I mean yeah, your level of tolerance for being together for very extended, very compacted periods of time. I mean how many Marriages did we see break up during COVID becausecause people were spending an amount of time together that they hadn't been exposed to previously. And I have to assume that maybe the same thing might be true if someone had never lived with their partner Do you think there's a person with whom wouldn't happen if you were together all the time that you would love to be with twenty four seven. Do you think there's a person that that would not be an issue? It's a shame that I'm not gay because I've got couple of friends that I'd happily do that with. I've hung out with a lot of friends for a long time without any distraction and it's been fucking sick. It's just like the penis thing gets to me. but You know what I mean? I'm saying In other words, you said You want to know whether or not you could live with the person the level of compatibility Um Yeah, and I'm trying to understand why that wouldn't have been ironed out with everything you describe staying over each other's houses.'re You're right, you're right. I think it's if it's about being with them all the time because it's so much space together, well, that's going to be the case with whoever you marry, right? So is there a person whom you could spend that much time with and it wouldn't matter at all or is that just human nature? Yeah. againgain, it's rub up against each other It's trying to avoid some of the huge issues. Anyway, just this habitation effect. Divorce rate for people who cohabited before marriage, thirty one point four percent, divorce rate for people who did not cohabitate before marriage twenty five point nine percent earlier research often found premarital coarabitation associated with roughly twenty to fifty percent higher divorce risk, depending on controls and demographics U the sliding versus deciding, that's exactly what you're talking about. So the unclear commitment is a really interest inertia is the same thing. Yeah. Unclear commitment is a really interesting one, which is One of the explanations for the cohabitation effect is that what both partners are doing is saying You're good enough for right now You're good enough for us to live together, but you're not good enough for me to get engaged too the moment. So it is a it's an amount of commitment, but it's not the commitment right that everybody's looking for Um But obviously there's a big one of the criticisms of the habitation effect is it's a selection effect. L peopleople who don't live together before they get married includes a whole host of very religious communities who Yes, That's true.ost stringent rules around divorce. They've got a culture that supports marriage in a different sort of a way. The kinds of people who wouldn't live together before also maybe likely to be virgins or less sociosexual There is something about that kind of person. but I also think that It's too big of a difference Between twenty and fifty percent increases in divorce because of cohabitation, there has to be something about cohabitating. which causes that imp Yes. And of course the studies have been done I mean, Um, The sliding versus the sliding is not small. That's a huge piece of it. I mean, you I've never heard that before. It's such a cool You slide into it because you're already there and the reasons why you let's say, are different from the reasons why you get down on one knee and ask someone to marry you for the rest of your life. Those are two different decisions completely. They don't really have anything in common. So you started out with this sort of flimsy thing And then you can't really figure out if this is the one because you're already doing it. and that's where the sliding That's the inertia thing too It's just momentum. Yeah. We've already started to well, you know, we're paying for the rent together. And maybe they bought a house. That's even donon't ever buy a house with somebody you're not married to. That's a big don't ever buy house with somebody you're not. No, donon't do anything financial that binds you If you're not married you're going it's a It's a It's a really dumb idea I don't know how else to say that Okay, so women dating well Dating with purpose. Dating with purpose or don't date at all. I mean, just date with and get it out on the table and you will weed out. It's selective. If they don't want it, no hard feelings. Bye. That's fine. know. Are you familiar with the idea of a shit test? Do you know what that is? B a artistry Yeah, it was that womenen to the men. they should test their men Yeah, exactly. if they were strong enough. Push the button. Yes,, exactly I had an equivalent when I was dating, which was I would send weird psychology articles to the girl that I was talking to. see what her reaction what she would respond with. And I'm like, look, this is kind of important to me. Yeah. My work is something that I care about and I think is interesting. and Marriage is basically one big fucking long podcast, It's a huge conversation that lasts for twenty thousand to thirty thousand hours. and still having it It's important to me and relationship. My relationships have failed in the past because I haven't had much or enough interest in that thing to talk about with my partner. And that means It's really important that we can get on the same page. I would almost over signal weird psychology articles up front in the same way as you're saying, get it all out on the table. that's great. Like obviously, there is an upper bound of how weird you should be You can be too weird Right? You can like maybe don't talk about your farting problem and your athletes fight on the first day. No. However, I do think, you know beinging you relatively unapologetically, with the intentions that you have and the things that you're interested in Uh, is good to get out Ely. Especially before you've had sex And before you've gone too far down the line, what do you have to lose? Send the psychology todayay articles before you had sesy? Yes. You might not believe me This sleep optimization looks like. I'm not talking about the night gown, It's just for sex appeal. I'm talking about my eight sleep. The eightight Sleep Pod five comes with a smart cubby throwing your mattress that actively cools or heats each side of the bed up to twenty degrees. and now they've added the world's first temperature regulating duvet and pillowcase. So you've got three hundred sixty degree coverage for deep, uninterrupted rest being Walt Disney without the cryogenic chamber And the racism. Best of all, their autopilot feature learns your sleep patterns and makes adjustments to improve your sleep in real time. It even detects when you're snoring and lifts your head a few inches to help you breathe better. That's why eightight sleep has been clinically proven to add up to one hour of quality sleep per night. They have a thirty dayays sleep trial so you can buy it and sleep on it for twenty nine nights. If you don't like it, they will. giveive you your money back. plus they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to do three hundred and fifty dollars off the pod five by going to the link in the description below. I heading to eight sleep d. com slash modern wisdom and using the code modern wisdom a checkout. That's Eight sleep. com slash modern wisdom and modern wisd check out Okay, so What do you think about timing? haveave you to women about How long you should date before engagement, be engaged before marriage, marriage before kids? Is that something that you consider Um I mean, I get asked about it and I don't have any hard line about it. I think that I think it can be different for different people. and I think the circumstances matter and how old you were when you met and what you're doing and what your background was like and how you are as a person. So I don't think there's a hard line For example, I knew my first husband for five years before we married and we were married four years and divorced. No ks married my husband. current husband, only husband that I think of when I think of husband is a year after I met him So he asked me six months after we met . Now I was twenty nine and he was thirty three So I do think It speeds up insofar as you It's just But there were a lot of circumstances there that to somebody else, that might sound fast, but actually and it was, but the circumstances were in place that made made it make sense. How longcause I'd been with five years, sorry with the other one, obviously I had a thing that, well, that didn't work, either. so mine. I'm like, well, I guess How long were kids after the marriage I was married at thirty, had a daughter at thirty two and a son at thirty five. Y Um All right, so You've got this situation where perhaps woman is going to have to go to their husband and say I want to stay home. I want to stay at home I wonder how many men I think this is probably increasingly true I wonder how many men are going to feel indignant or not seen in the fact that they lean in, quite masculine energy woman that they go into a relationship with, who maybe they were trying to encourage into her softness and her femininity for a long time, and battled against and perhaps subdued some of the desires that they had around Well, you know, she's on a career thing and I guess I not that's not the kind of life that I'm going to have So they've got into this expectation and maybe even tried to suggest and encourage that softness and that femininity to come through only for them to find out after kids that they were right but early that exact same scenario that you just described come up? Um in coaching anyway, but because usually it's from the woman's side. Yeah. Yeahah, yeah, yeah. might not be something that they would freely admit No, but it's I was a Lan boss lady type energy for a long time and he actually asked me to do this a while ago and totally. And I actually wrote a book called the Alpha Femaaless Guide to Men in Marriage. I don't know if you saw that, and that's all about how the type A masculinized A hard charging woman can become softer. It's a whole book about how to become soft. Fascinating. What are the key takeaways from? Gosh Um They I'm aware it's an entire book to be summarized, but was twenty seventeen, Chris. That was so long ago. No, the gist of it is there's just a lot of little examples there of ways to. soften your approach and delivery so that it's received better And to understand that all those skills that you mastered and used to be successful at work, which absolutely works in public. Really well in the marketplace. Yeah are complete disaster at home that the skills that you have mastered are the exact opposite skills of what you need to make this work And that is why so many I think Well, you really write unpopular books. I really do. I mean, they sell, but like they culturally horrendous. They're horrendous. You're actually quite toxic, yeah. I really am. It's sort of like What's wrong with me? you know? L I, you know, it's Most of what I write comes from either personal experience or things that I've seen that Um Either a lot of writers are writing what they're working through themselves, you know, So there's that piece. And reesearch is research. Research is research. And then also just knowing things and you can't unknow them and you hear the lies that are spread and you just can't shut up about it. I mean, that's basically my writing career. And so I'm like That's so true, you know. And I want to be helpful to people who are busy living their lives doing their thing. and unless you do this research, you really don't know that what you're being fed is crap. you know, it bugs ll out of me. So that' that's my motivation But anyway. ye, I wrote so that book is basically saying, look, everything you've been taught to do works great in the marketplace. But if you want to be successful in your love life, you need to develop a whole different set of skills because that's not going to work because if you've married a masculine, you know, just a man, you're going to You know, he doesn't want that. So it's going to and you don't really You need the yin and the yang, you need the masculine. There's a line in your new one, When women think and behave like a man, conflict in a relationship is inevitable. Yeah men and women Um, The biggest distinction, I feel like between them when it comes to communicating is that There needs to be receptivity onn the part of the woman Um that I think is lacking when they're a natural and I can speak from personal experience with this, if you're a natural arguer Clearly I am, that's what I do with my work. So this dilly did come from my own space. I always want to say the argument the other side, you know, and it bugs the hell on my husband. but that's Sometimes that's not necessary or needed in that space.. Disagreeability is disagreeability. It's positively correlated with earnings Professionally, correct because it allows you to adate. need I need a pay rise. Yeah. I deserve a pay rise interview with Jordan Petersenick. four times I must have seen it just brilliant, one of my favorite interviews of all time. And I loved it when he said, you know, well, you're disagreeable. It's working great for you here That was good j. That was a great joy. I mean, but you take that woman in that space, the way she was behaving. Think about everything she was doing in that moment and take her home and her relationship and how that would go over You know, it just it just wouldn't So it's It's hard. You just you know, women used to be a lot more naturally feminine and they were cououraged to be and they were more receptive and they were softer and they dressed like a woman. And all of that's changed. And I'm just saying You know, it wouldn't hur to bring a little bit of that back if you want to have peace in your relationship. Jared, can you quickly YouTube Whitney Cummings, Chris Williamson, a challenge And it should be a short video I should be assured, it did like Garillion plays, but Whitney basically explains empowered, comedian lady, Lean in, Hollywood, exec. You like lots of things and had got deeper into her thirties and was still dating, so had maybe developed some of that, you know professional H Pushiness. and um Yeah, that top left. five point four mill, that one. ye. I dated a professional athlete, great at what he does. There's not a lot of room for emotion to be involved. It's either true or it's not true, or you're gonna get your neck broken. He could date whoever he wanted or sleep with whoever he wanted. And we were like arguing about something. and I was like, well, why would you date me? like I'm the person you date if you want like a challenge. And he just went, why would any man want a challenge in their relationship. In that moment was like, oh my God, I thought it was like hot to you. I thought it was like what guys wanted. I thought it was like feisty, like I apologize. Well especially if you're dating somebody that is high performing in any realm has goals. If you're working that hard in the office, you really want to come home and be like, right, there's that to do list done. I wonder what fires I need to fight when I step through the front door as well d that's the alpha book that I wrote. That's exactly in a nutshell. Like who wants that? That's not going to work. And so there's a lot of this going on in relationships because of this. What's the truth about the financial requirements for raising a kid? Oh my It's really not that expensive in the early years for one thing. You just need diapers and formula, right? Over the years the long, you know, if you're looking at the whole eighteen years There's a financial piece to it for sure, but it's also not mandatory do in a certain fashion. In other words You don't need to have a lot of money to have children you need to want to have a family and utilize the monies that you have to make that work So it's not like in words, don't have children because I can't send them to private schools and I can't send them to college and I can't buy them all the nice things. And we can't go to Disney or whatever. you don't need all of that, even if it seems like everybody's doing that around you Um, in order to have children. So like in the early years for us There was no we didn't live the way we did, say when they were in high school, when they were early, when they were young. I mean, you live on less, you know, you make those choices and you make trade offffs. that's worth it to you if you value and you If you value family and you value having a person at home then or a mom at home or whatever. it's just a no brainer. like it never occurred to me, Ohh, well I can't do three vacations a year, so I shouldn't do this. or oh, I have to send them a private school to be able to do it. You work with what you have. Why do you think it's the case? if that's true, if it's not as expensive to raise a child as people think Why Ites't have to be? Yeah, it doesn't have to be. Why do so many women and men too, but primarily women site economic requirements and economic instability is one of the main reasons that we can't afford to have a child. Who can have a child in this economy? So I have I like this is the first time I've said this. I have a theory that that social media has been extremely harmful in a lot of ways, but especially 's perspective of what's real and what's not and believing that Um A, if someone says that it must be true be if everybody that you're singing looks like they're saying this and living this way. Well, that's the only way to live then, you know This is it, I can't do it When you're not exposed to that, Um you have a more insular, which is good insular in this sense perspective, just with your own little community and your own family. It's just not It's just been really harmful in my opinion, to see all these lives they're the norm and it makes you feel inadequate. And I think that plays into that, believing that U You have to live this certain way to have children. No, you don't. I mean, you can do things your way. If you can't afford that lifestyle, that doesn't mean you don't have kids I mean, is the argument that kids are harmed by that You know, that's another interesting thing. Kids don't need all that. It's interesting, I wonder whether people think that kids would be more harmed by not having three vacations a year or more harmed by not having mum at home What do you think they would say That's an kind of a tried example. That's a silly example. I don't think that even the more strange say. But you know, certainly I don't know, conversations I don't know what it is that people think that they need maybe the size of the house. Like certainly housing is a big deal, right? So few people want to raise a family in an apartment They want to have a house. They maybe want to have a little bit of Garden yard to play in with the kids and Lots and lots of people are in housing that is not built for kids. Like, do you want to raise a family in a fucking apartment? Really I mean, if you ask most people, they're going to say no, right? But it doesn't have to be, as they say these days, forever home either It can be a star he goes home I mean, the starter homes are really expensive too these days, but I mean I mean, you can raise a kid in the first, I don't know, five, six, seven, eight years in a three bedroom house, a two bedroom, small like fifteen hundred square foot house if you had to. I mean, it's just hard because I also look at it sorry for interruption. J just think about what people are optimizing for. Yeah. peopleeople are optimizing to be near the coffee shops and like the cute place that they go for brunch with the gls. Maybe this is a period like the kids aren't going to school So if you're okay to move within the next five years or something, I mean the market's like fucking nightmare Austin. Austins you see Austin's market Jared? It's like two or three times as many sellers as there are buyers. That the craziest sex ratio in history Anyway. That's one of the things that people optimize for that they probably wouldn't want to But you go, hey, if you move, fuck me, if you're prepared to get thirty minutes outside of Austin, you can get a lot of house Like a shit ton of house for. Exactly. Bingo. So again, it's just be willing to go out thirty minutes more. There's so many options that aren't entertained if it's not exactly what you envision or want fromself. So much about wanting what you want right now instead of there's a stepping stone to that And that a lot of that has to do with, yes, inflated expectations for sure. Again, social media plays a role into that. But also the longer you live without getting married and having kids, going back to what we were saying before, your lifestyle. Oh my gosh.. You're making it really hard on yourself, in my opinion, actually doing it that way because everything looks harder in some ways. We've always said that's the thing you're supposed to do for decades. We've been saying, wait, wait, wait, do everything you're thirty is, you know, there's just this whole theory philosophy around that I don't agree with, but that's the philosophy and it's been touted for a long time now. But again, nobody ever talked about the flip side of that. which is what we're talking about, is youre getting used to the certain life. Hugely. yeah. mean the opportunity to grow You become accustomed to a particular type of life is So much of what we're dealing with at the moment is people getting what they want, not what they need. and it's not what they want, it's what they think they want I'm puppeted by and this is true for all of us, right? Like we're metetic social creatures, like it's the way that it works friendriend gave me a really interesting thought experiment that kind of relates to the kids might be better off having three holidays a year than having mum at home or something like that. Imagine that you had a situation where two mums decided that they were going to start up a solo business looking after children. So they were going to become nannies. And each mother was going to look after the other's child and pay each other the exact same amount for it O the mother would stay at home and just look after their own. In one of these, she's a self starting business person that is praised and has a lot going on from my friend's situation and in the other that just a month and that It's such a cool example because it kind of shows the expectation. or like if it was two because no one would be a full time nanny for one kid with one kid but to do it for two or to do it for three. you go, well, I can fund my childcare with me doing childcare It's just, I don't know, I I I Sorry go ahead. I'm just aware that I'm horribly on the outside pissing inside of this tent, but like What sense does that make? What sense does what you were just describing make? Yeah, of course. I'm allowed to comment on stuff. I'm sat in the stands throwing hurling mud and mocket people that are trying to make this work. I am trying to be very empathetic about it. But it really differentiates, I mean, again, that's exactly something you would learn about somebody when you're dating him, right? Are you doing this because this is what you value In other words Basically it comes down to that is what do you value? do you want If the most important thing to you is being present in your children's life and building that relationship and being responsible for that person's character and development and all the rest t care about any money or any other things. Like that's it. That's the focus. The person who has to have the paycheck order to feel good is going to have a different approach to all these decisions these family decisions that you're making with her. And so much of it is the inertia, the momentum that you've had of What did my friends value? What was my lifestyle like when I was younger What did I use social media in order to be able to advertise online? Like I'm not going to be able to talk about my travels anymore I'm not going to be able to show where we're going for trips. I'm not going to be able to wear outfits and, there's a lot of costs in the sort of marketplace that people are inhabiting There's L lots of costs. And there are a lot of costs. And there are costs this I think important, there are a lot of costs that women pay that the men don't The guys can still six months into baby, the guys can still go out and see their friends and go watch the game on a weekend. That's going be much that's going to be like, a oh my God, this is the first time in six months that I've been able to go out. Yeah for mum. That's not going to be the same. There are requirements and lifestyle sacrifices that women have to make that men don't. and being that social media and the current currency is tension and status. That's a big hit to what the rest of the world valued you for The latter being the most important piece of that because there's so much opportunity for growth and learning about this whole piece of the world that you've turned your mind away from, that you're going to learn by not getting a paycheck and caregiving. and Um, Um throwing yourself into this space that's so unfamiliar to you and scary at first the things that I hear from people who have done that is Oh my God, I mean, I wouldn't have changed that. Like you said that you said how many people, how many women would change their mind or ye Um The growth is there, but we just don't Again, we don't value it and we're not allowed to talk about it. And you don't advertise it in the same way. No.. So all they here are the costs. There's this whole other piece that's missing and I mean, there really isn't any way to explain to somebody when you're home with A two year old is say and they're climbing the steps onene at a time And you've already been home and you're bonding, and you're doing the attachment, you know all it's all in place. and she or he is two years old and he's climbing steps for the first time and you're of course behind him so he doesn't fall. And each time he climbs to the next step. He'll turn around and see if you're there then I'll go back. And I'll take the next step turns around to see if you're there. And by the time it's done You have just created a human in that little space there of trust that is going to carry them the rest of their life And those are the things that are intangible Nobody talks about And you have to actually do it to see it And I just want people to know about it before so they understand what what's really going on there think the Lessons are that men and women are told about the value of money versus time at home I don't think there's any attention paid to The value or the significance of time at home. I think there is only focus on money I don' I mean, we have never been more materialistic ever in history than we are today and Once you get on that treadmill, I guess It's you're just it's almost, um It's like autopilot, you don't even realize there's a whole world outside of you. It's called life, right? life that doesn't, you know, chores Eerrands raising children, cooking. There's just this whole world that has nothing to do with earning money that is like life. It's the stuff life is made of. Somebody's got to do it whichich sounds like it's a bad thing to do, but A, somebody has to do it, yes, but also somebody gets to do it You know, and with no attention on that Um people even Um recognize it as there. And then when they do it They get resentful about it because they're so focused on trying to make money that this all this other stuff I just described is getting in the way of their path that they're on. and it's like that's where the resentment's coming in. But this is actually a job in and of itself, creating a home raaising children doing errands, cooking. I mean Cooking is a subject in and of itself because we're fast food nation now and people are overweight and they're like, how did I get this way? And it's like becauseuse no one's in the kitchen cooking anymore. It's so daunting when you're constantly working. No one's gonna to cook at the end of a ten hour workday. Nobody, that's when it all started to go downhill and nobody was home to cook That's interesting. The obity childhood obesity, which tripled in the last fifty years, happened at the same time mothers left the home en masse becausecause who do you think was cooking before? when we before when we didn't have Um the obesity crisis, why was that people talk about chemicals and oils, and that's all fine and great. But the truth is There was a mom in a kitchen cooking. Well, Calorie's a king, right? And if you know what you've put into your food, regardless of the seed oils It it's calers in Calers out. Correct.. ye. And if the kids are getting takeout on the way home It's the lifestyle. It's a lifestyle switch that has happened that has created all these other problems. What do you think about there's a big debate around the double shift for women, the sort of share of housework between men and women Every Every Every question every question that I ask you, it seems like it kind of comes with it pains you. I'm sorry. It's just Sometimes you're asking me some things that I haven't actually talked about or thought about a while, but I've written about extensively. So I just have to pull it out of my mind Um Full time motherhood includes all of those things that people are now fighting about between each other the husbands and wives or couples about who does more or whatever If you have somebody at home raising children Those things that we're talking about are going to naturally be part of that lifestyle of raising children. So for example, when I was home and my husband was working I would do more child that I would do more own. household chores because I'm there. I'm physically home based and there. So I did the grocery shopping, I did the cooking. He would come home and do the cleaning. He did plenty. He changed diapers, he cleaned, he did all that he could do on top of his full time job. But at no point did I fight with him or play tit for tat about who's doing more. because You didn't have to because once you've divided it up that way, it's kind of obvious. That stuff only came into play when women started working full time too. and now you've got both people doing it And men and women don't respond to the home stuff in the same way. So women think men are supposed to respond the way they would respond But again, if you come with the argument that men and women aren't the same and interchangeable, it makes perfect sense. But to them, it's, well, what you mean we're equal? I should do this and you should do this. He's going to step over the sock maybe because he doesn't see it or he doesn't care about it. It's not because he thinks you're supposed to pick it up That's not the point. It's just he doesn't care. And you care. And women care more about the home because they're nestters, they're nesters by nature even if they work. There. cool study that's done that women's level of sexual arousal based on how tidy the house is that basically I mean if there's if there's not orderliness around the house then they can sometimes struggle to switch off. So that's being irritated by the sock is a perfect example of that. I don't know how many socks it takes to turn off your horniness, but maybe not many for some women. Maybe some women are more sock sensitive than others. My point being that there's the same is not true for a man on average. let's say, there's another great story I saw on Twitter was so good. A woman had asked the man to do the dishes while she was out And she came back to find that he'd grouted the shower He'd like regrouted the shower. So he'd gone in and fixed all in between all of the tiles and he'd done this seal stuff. And he came back and was like, Yeah I'm proud. so happy for it. And she was mad at him because he didn't do the dishes. And it kind of speaks to this There are certain tasks and roles that aren't necessarily seen by each other. As important. Yes. Yes hundred percent those aren't even noticed. Like do you think that how often do you think she thought about the grouting? in the show. Never O the fact that the oil in the car hadn't been changed. No, never. So and's that's a big difference between men and women. and that's why the playing tit for tat is so bad. And going back to what you just said about a woman not being able to overlook the sock A great I always tell men to like if they, well, you can't do this on any kind of regular basis, I guess. But if you were to move a wife from the home and get her in a hotel room, let's say or just, I don't know, somewhere else that's not the home seexually I'm talking about. She's going be able to be more receptive because she doesn't have to tune out everything in her midst, which is what you were getting ats to be done in the home. She's totally in sexual mode because oh, I'm in a hotel room, or oh I'm at a party or whatever it is you're taking her to is away from that drudgery, which pulls away from her sexual desire because You want to go get to that stuff. Charred, howold your kid Eight months. Okay, well there's your hack. dude. if you need to if you need to pipe it a bit more Yeah. just Hey, Darling, I've got us this an evening in a hotel in local organ, you know in Um There's an interesting bit of like old school productivity bro advice, which is you shouldn't have your desk inside of your bedroom. There should be a separation of work and sleep because for the exact same reason. But what's interesting here is the stay at home Mum's office is the house So that means, hey, if you're asking me to do something is ye different in energy to what I do here typically Uh That might be a bit hard. Yeah, because a woman doesn't feel sexy when she's, you know an in the kitchen.'s not sexual. depend on how f you're in. Okay Daka What do you think about Da It's a necessary evil for many people. they think it's a necessary evil. They've got work They can't be at home with their kids, the maternity leave that everybody I think thinks should be given, isn't there What do you think about day day care was at one time, you know, daycare was originally a head start program And it was just initially designed for low income families and or one income families who literally had no choice because mom had to go to work When it opened up which it did over time to just anybody who wanted to use it just because, regardless of their financial circumstances, that's when it ballooned and became eventually over time, just a way of life Like it just normal One of the things that's been really interesting is watching, even like I told you, I started this twenty five years ago when I was first writing about this That was at a time when the Mommy wars were all raging and It was kind of understood that you had to defend your choice of using daycare if you were using it. Like people were writing about it. because it was instinctively understood that that was not good. It was understood fast forward twenty five years and I have noticed People are talking about it like they're taking a shower, dropping off their two year old and daycare, one year old or whatever, six week old, literally like it's nothing And I look at that and I see what's happened and I this is not This person literally has no idea that daycare is bad No clue So you can't it's almost like you can't blame her per se, because she just doesn't know what she doesn't know. And I truly believe that's where young mums are today. They really have no idea Daycare is the last place that that Lles belong. Lles belong at home. with their mom If not with mom with dad, if not with dad, then grandma, if not with grandma and nanny, if not with a nanny, a neighborhood small I mean, daycare is the bottom of the bottom And why The reason why is it's so giant It's so un It's It's too big, number one and you have so much turnover and in and out coming and going the attachment that you are trying to replace for what they need in those early years that can only be really done with one on one person, it can't be had in an environment like that It's way too stressful There is I think if people go into daycares really go into them and see what goes on. they'd have a better Um understanding of what it really looks like It's like you're lined up, like you're one of a bunch of people and you're just it it's a pecking order, you know, you're a part of a machine almost. There's no all those needs that need to be met in the early years can't possibly be met in an institutional environment like that. I mean, the sleep alone I mean, babies need sleep and they need to be on a schedule and they need quiet And they need peace and they need to be cared for in a way that is not possible to replicate in a daycare center becausecause one kid is awake and crying or making noise while another is trying to sleep. As an example, yes or or ten people are And how can you sleep with ten people, you know Or if you're hungry, you're not necessarily going to be fed until they can get to you. Or you start to attach yourself to somebody and then that person goes into another room and gets moved or he he or she leaves she usually she leaves the building altogether after you've started to develop an attachment And then the exhaustion, the mere exhaustion, so all those tears. And by the way, just to C clarify There's a big difference between a couple of hours in an environment like that and ten hours for a one year old, let's say peopleople don't delineate or talk about that, there's massive difference A baby can handle an hour or to apart or even an environment like that temporarily if they know that they're immediately going back to mom ten hours being left there, eight hours or whatever is is awful. It's just bad I posted a couple of clips with Erica king about talking about Da some of the interesting sentiments that came back from Mums Things like my kid loved going to daycare He can't wait. He wants to run out of the car or like he's always really happy and smiley when I drop him off at daycare. What do you think about that So there are many things that occur in the U Drop off pickup. scenario with a mom and a baby I mean, nine out of ten times when you first introduce a baby to that environment, you're going to get tears. Actually, both people are crying usually, both mom and the baby. And you'll hear story after story I have any way of story after story of moms. Dropping them off for the first time and hysterical all the way to work I mean, just crying, it was horrible, horrible, horrible, which to me is a signal that something's gone wrong. This is not good. this is not normal. The baby's crying, you're crying. That's something you should pay attention to. N nots something you should push away, which is what society wants you to do, is push it away. It's okay. He'll be fine And what that baby does or child does, in trying to get his needs met and seeing that they're no longer going to be metad They just sort of stop. and give up and they're not crying for that moment. and so you think they're fine But actually they just sort of well gave up because nobodys tended to their needs. That doesn't mean they're fine. it just means they're just quiet. In fact, the quiet ones Sometimes you need to worry about more. This was actively a lady or maybe a few ladies saying they love it. they seem actively positive to be going there when I drop them off And they Well, that would be an older child, not a baby. Yeah Yeah, like a three or three old. Yeah. And by three, you're fine. And byy three you can go into preschool. againgain Um So let's say you have a three year old and you are having them in daycare ten hours a day or something, which is different from preschool, which is just a couple of hours in the morning. which is perfectly age appropriate first three year old Um There are a lot of repercussions that are also not talked about that may not come in the form of tears and that is the exhaustion piece because you should really still be napping at that point. so they're really, really tired and overstimulated from this environment And then the child that you're receiving at the end of the day, that's gonna to bleed over into the rest of the night with the discipline that you're trying to instill because at that point, they're so tired. Like I always like it's just pointless to even attempt a discipline. child who is so tired, he's out of his skin. He can't even think straight. he's like drunk. Don't even attempt anything. You just have to put it to bed basically. There's a huge piece of sleep deprivation that is also not discussed with those early years in long care that bleeds over into the home and your ability to parent properly and well because of that exhaustion piece. Or you have to put them to bed right away because they're s tired and so then you't see them then there's that. What's an alternative to Dca ome households are unable to survive on a single person's income Mum needs to get back to work at some point or Mum wants to get back to work at some point Extend it as long as you possibly can before you do that and exhaust every possible means of care that is not group care in that way. So what are some of your favorite family members that's Um, uh agamome people tag team with their husbands That's another thing. Some people can do that, depending on your job situation where one's in and one's out. It's not great for the marriage, but if you do it temporarily becausecause you don't see each other. But you could get away with it temporarily, and I've known people who have done that. one's working days, one's working nights, so someone's always with at home. That's one thing but your neighbors are your friends. trading off with your friends. So maybe your babyays with your friend while you're working and then her baby's with you. So it's just you and two Y your kid and your friend two on one The smaller, the better Hm. Yeahah, I mean one of the most interesting conversations I had there's a company called Athena that make virtual assistantance And I had the founder CEO on and I was saying that having a virtual assistant or an assistant at all is wonderful, but how many people have got access to that? That's not that realistic. And He said, Well, there's lots of ways that you can basically get the exact same function of that just by using your friends. And one of his examples was child care Yeah. He says, if you want to work one day a week Or two days a week? Yes You only need one other mum. Yes to alternate alternate. Yeah, exactly. And like one on two or one on three, maybe, like you can probably get away with that. You can come to our house or you can go to yours and then, hey, if we organize our working schedules, you could get two days a week of workout. And look, I mean, the days when you're going to be at home outnumbered two to one are three to one by kids, like that's also going to be a pretty like challenging day, but it means that you aren't having to do the daycare thing. It's free And you've got two day two and a half, you know, o you do half a Wednesday and Thursday Friday and Lld Monday, Tuesday and half of a Wednesday. I'm a big believer that necessity is a mother of invention. And if the daycare system and it is a system, I mean, it is a This is the word I'm looking for It's a Well, I'm blanking on the name, but If it weren't there as an option peopleeople would figure it out. People would figure it out They had to back in the day. As I said, we had a headad start program. We had a thing in place for tru, tru, tru, truly needy families. Of course, there's a lot more needy families today than there was fifty years ago, but you just what are you going to do if it's not there? You know, if something isn't there, you go to the next thing and you figured out, I believe that I think it's just become My issue is more that it's become so normalized that we're not even allowed to talk about the fact that the thing that looks so normal actually is really bad. That's my issue. I just want to be able to talk openly and say, actually, this isn't good. And here's why so that they know because Truly, I believe people don't know I believe it's come to that. There was a time when people knew instinctively this was not and they could talk about it. but what's the most compelling reason that you give to some a m who feels like Daca is fine you think, hey, this is something that you should know Um that The most important thing for a child in the first three years of life is to develop the intangibles of love and trust that will then carry them into their own adult relationships later on, so that if they do not attached to you in those early years or to your singular alternative person or whatever that will stay with them for life and it will show up in their relationships later on and that's That's real. I mean, like That's a real thing And it's surprising for a lot of people. They just don't know about that. It's an interesting duality. An one of those paradoxes that we were talking about earlier on. a lot of people are into therapy. A lot of people love books liketached by Amil Levine or Jessica Baumm's book. Amil's got a new one out called Secure. They just thought they're on my home. Lots of people are very informed on the attachment literature. And a lot of people that are going to therapy are also understanding the fact that, hey, my parents maybe didn't care for me in the manner that would have been optimal to give me secure attachment. And I'm now having to unpick and unwind some of these things Well, what are those? Well, you know, they didn't hold me when I needed it. They didn't see my needs without me asking. They weren't understanding. I didn't feel safe and secure. There wasn't consistency, availability, reliability, responsiveness and predictability. like the five elements of secure attachment. Those things weren't there But And yet, yeah. Let's not talk about this thing. I can pay that forward. It's like I'm going to go to therapy to unpick the patents from the past because I don't want my kid to inherit my bad patnents. because of the situation that I've constructed or that I need to or feel like I need to from education and employment and lifestyle demands I am now potentially just recreating the thing, notot only recreating the thing that happened to me and I don't want, but that I'm actively trying to in an attempt to not pass down And this is where This is like, why I think that When it's said in a sober way, in a calm way, in a gentle way that accepts the challenges and the fucking like really Odd economic and cultural situation that young women find themselves in now. that it should be something If it's What you're saying is heard properly for what it's supposed to be It should be Pretty well received because look at how fucking hard you're working in therapy. Why? Well, because you want to be happy yourself and you don' want to be, you know fucking puppeted by these patteratns and stuff like that. But because you don't want to pass it down to your future kids too Like you're really, really working hard at this thing You're just working hard at it within the confines, this model that exists.. These are the rules that you play. Well, you earn lots of money to have the therapy so that you cannot pass the patents ono your kids, but that means that they've got you can't afford to stay at home because you need to Literally, that's the reason I wrote how to Build a Bter Life, which is my most recent book. and it was it's for women who want to prioritize marriage and love and family, really, to have that be the core of their life. that requires starting early to make the decisions that we've talked about If you do that All this stuff doesn't it ceases to exist. That's kind of like the whole point, you know? L if you create this life that's countercultural and not like the way you've been taught to do it you wouldn't end up in this boat of worrying about repeating the patterns of He like your attachment issues Um If it' circled back and understood that daycare is going to create that then you can stop that in its tracks before it starts. at the very least it's not going to make it better. Yeah Yeah So Anyway, I just That's There's just a whole different way to do life, I guess is my point. and that's why I wrote that. And it's there for the taking. but You've got to be presented with the information and you got to have people willing to talk about it because it's so taboo to talk about. Well you've got a line live your life not theirs So that was the end of that book and it was essentially saying re if you're building a life based on what you're told you're supposed to do, even if it goes against what you might really want And sometimes you're all the way in before you know that that's true. Um You know, you're going to be unhappy. You have to live You have to be satisfied. You have to know what you want Know what you value build a life that that has that as its core and not worry about everybody else's. And which is so so hard I'm going back to social media today. We didn't have this. You know, social media is new in my I'm fifty eight. so I don't know how long has social media been around When my kids were little, it didn't exist. so I think it was they were Facebook schoolace Facebook's about twenty years They were in high school by then. So like being raised just seeing all these images and seeing how other people are living, peopleople that What do you even care about these other people? They don't even know them, you know? They live across the world. I certainly can understand when you're young, you're gonna see it and be like And then your life's going to look terrible in comparison because they've got that, but they don't have what you have either. so you have to have perspective on it. So I think social media has been really, really hard reallyally destructive actually, for this concept of loving your life and not worrying about theirs, but you really have to keep your eye on the ball to be happy or you're gonna be sucked into this other space. Whatould do you wish more young women knew you were able to put a billboard up that all young women would see on their way to work. What do you wish you'd be able to tell them Um notothing in your life is going to compare to the Euphoria and the satisfaction and the meaning of having a baby and raising that baby and having a family and haaving that sense of security and peace when the world's going baddy around you and you just have your little home that you've created and nothing you do and no amount of money you're going to make is ever going to compare. But you don't know that yet I'll put my money on it. Let's for it that way So if I'm wrong What's the worst that's happened You know I'm wrong, and then Um The point is that you have choices if you If you believe me and you set up your life that way, you will have choices and that's where I want you to be Yeah, Sus I'mank, ladies and gentlemen. Wh should people go to keep up to date with everything you do? Well, they can go to Suszanmenker. com And I'm mainly on substack these days, but everything is at Szanbanker. comot. I appreciate you. Thank you for sticking your neck out and touching every third rail in existence See you next time, everyone Hear that That's the sound of busy to a restaurant, all that shouting and banging might as well be a symphony