Committing to Radical Life Changes

D don't want a big house, don't want a fancy car. Just want the deck gone You took a seventy five thousand dollars pay cut. You bought this house, but then you still decided to build the pool. Yeah. How much did the pool cost? Like one hundred twenty thousand. That was just a pool. Where does the money come from for all of these things? Everything goes on the credit card. Did you run Math Wow, got extremely silent in here. What is this number? one hundred and seventy nine percent, whichich I believe may be the highest fixed cost number I've ever seen. Oh no. You are drowning. Yeah. I think in my head if we don't buy a house again, we won't get into that situation But you will. I just feel like we've failed. The question that should consume you is how did we get here? and what's going to stop us from getting right back in here? And I'm not hearing much of that. It is just a matter of time until you run out of money. The clock is ticking What happens when you build your entire life around an income that suddenly disappears? Today, I'm speaking with Melissa and Tarn. They're in their forties. They live in Los Angeles with their five children. They have a net worth of over seven hundred thousand dollars and almost half a million dollars invested But today, their fixed costs are at one hundred and seventy nine percent That means they are spending more than they make every single month Let's take a deeper look at the numbers in their conscious spending plan or CSP. And if you want my help to take control of your money, you can join my money coaching program at Wtot com slash money coaching. Assets, one point four million dollars Investments, four hundred ninety five thousand. savings, fifty thousand debt one point two million for a total net worth of seven hundred sixty one thousand, their income, wow, is eleven thousand nine hundred dollars per month. That income is wildly out of pace with the rest of their major expenses You know, at first, when you meet this couple, you think it's about a layoff and an unaffordable house and a two hundred thousand dollars pool. But about halfway through our conversation, Melissa and Tarn shaare something I did not know coming in eight years ago They lost a child. And I want to mention that now because this conversation becomes quite serious. It touches on grief and the loss of a child. and that may be difficult for some viewers to hear. When they told me, their spending started to make a lot more sense. It helped me understand there was a lot more going on here besides eating out and credit cards and a few purchases, they couldn't afford. So now, let's meet Melissa and Tern Now I understand that you recently experienced a major change in your finances. Yes. Can you walk me through what happened? Yeah, I was laid off from my job. and so obviously a huge hit financially, but also emotionally Um Netflix is an amazing company to work for. And so just just gutted to not be there anymore, but Unfortunately, reorgs happen, things happen. but That definitely took a hit. I think we've always relied heavily on my steady income for the past twenty plus yearsot Not the whole twenty plus years, but I was being paid very well. so definitely took a huge hit. How much were you making when I started out, well T toows the end when I say I was making well, it is probably three hundred fifty thousand. Wow That's a lot. That's the peak. I didn't start at that, but I worked my way up to that over several years Then there was layoffs that happened about three years ago I kind of knew thingsings might be happening and my job may be impacted. So I started looking for other roles within the company And fortunately for me, I was able to find another role. However, it was a very different role. u so I took a seventy five thousand dollars decrease in salary because I was no longer managing a team, that sort of thing. Still being paid very well. My salary was then two seventy five the last two three years have been two seventy five. Can I ask you a question when you You decided to switch roles internally and you took that seventy five thousand dollars pay cut. Did you adjust your household spending Probably not. I mean, know. Well. I mean, I feel like when we bought the house we did 'causeuse we knew buying the house was like, okay, wait, no, time out. Okay We were renting at the time. and we're like we're in a weird spot with their where we' renting because There was issues at the building. had to move out all this stuff. So we were like, what do we do? Do we buy a house and build a pool so I can teach and build my business. Your business being? I teach survival and lessons to infants and children.. So we're like, let's get a house and build a pool that I can teach because you couldn't find a house with a pool And that way I can bring more money because I can make really good money And so that was our next plan of action. When we bought the house, it was based on her original salary before The reorg And she took the decrease. So we went into it like, cool, we can pay this mortgage. We'll be good And then the reork happened, the decrease in her salary happened And that's when it started hitting us, like when we got into the house how much everything was really gonna to cost. Had you bought the house before the reard happened or after. Didn't we sign off? We literally signed the papers the day before Monday confirming her salary Thursday, she got laid off when it closed. So the timing was like, okay, maybe this all happen because like we're supposed to build a pool and And we were like, let's invest in her career. Like since mine is like, we don't really kind of know what's happening and' paid less. But you took a seventy five thousand dollars pay cut. you bought this house and now you're moving into it based on the old salary. Then you still decided to build a pool. Yeah. How much did the pool cost? Like one hundred twenty thousand. That was just a pool. What else is there? Oh, concrete fencing that had to go around to build the pool. How much tootal Oh we put in like a hundred, another hundred grand. So two hundred and twenty, should we just call two hundred fifty? Yeah fifty. And this is after a seventy five thousand dollars payup. Yeah. Yes. Okay. When did it start hitting you that you were financially in over your heads. I think immediately, like so we knew what the pool would cost to build. And I think we just weren't thinking about all the other things that were gonna be added on after that like. But then I also knew with my business that I'm like, o, I can teach this many kids and make this much money and she could be at home. easily like and be home because Like I was a stay home mom. I can go out and teach. I can do it when the kids are napping, whatever. I can make it like early in the mornings when she's home before she goes to work, in the evenings, when she's home from work. And so for that, I was like, I can Make the money, likeike'll just pay this off. Did it work It works, I built my business and it's great and it's booming, but then all these other things started happening with the house. It was like new AC Like termites. Termites like just little car problem, like all the little., don't skip over it. I love these. What else Our front gate, you know, one of those electric gates, you know, we put what fifteen hundred bucks into that just recently because it broke. We had a leak. so we had to have mold remediation. We had to fix the leak the hedges Yeah these beautiful hedges that haveost thousand dollars to maintain. There's like a big hill in the back of our yard that has to be, you know, for fire purposes or the like Where does the money come from for all of these things? credit cards. Really? Yeah, a lot of it You mentioned that immediately after getting the house, you realized you were in over your financial head. And so what happened next We ended up taking a person loan from some family. Okay to pay for all these extra things, the concrete, the fencing, the electrical panel, all the things to help that go to building the pool so that she could then start her business. How much do they loan you U It was a hundred thousand Yeah. And the deal was they wanted it paid off in five years. So Our payments were like twenty thousand three hundredars a month. So that on top of the mortgage, on top of everything else, it was just like a lot. Did you run math Wow, got extremely silent in here. I don't like that. I mean you know, I mean at what point? didid you run like two thousand three hundred plus the price of the b Oh my go plus Yeah, we put it in our bet.. And I knew I have to bring in this much. Okay just to make ends meet Like my business has to bring in this much per month. Just four thousand a month to help us just meet our bare minimum that we're not saving. We're not. I'm not saving. There's no saving. There's no emergency fund. So was it feasible Like you could do it feasibly without working like ten days a week Oh, for sure. my like I teach March through November because that's like the warmer non rainy kind of, you know We have great weather here, so I'm fortunate to do that. That's what you did. You were working. you were also working, Taren with that seventy five K pay cut, but still making a very high salary How were things going at that point? Okay, but we still we still know we have debt. L I just hate that the weight of, I mean, who likes it, honestly, but like I just know that I feel like we weren't contributing to anything Chipping away at any of the debt. We hate having to ask for money. Like that's like the very last thing we want to do. Like I want to I want to get them paid off as soon as possible. I don't want that I don't want to be indebted in that way. So I think it's always frustrating. and we can't we haven't been able to like travel. like we love to travel. We love to go out and have nice meals and like we haven't been able to do any of that. insside your household when you would talk about money at that point What were the conversations like? She was more stressed and I was like, Listen, everyone has dad So isn' true I grew up thinking it was true. Okay. I did not. I think more people have debt than you really realize and no one talks about it So I think it's like a very shameful thing and I'm just very open. so I'm like, this is just what it is, you know And I think her she was like, but I want to pay it off. likeike I'm stressed and I don't And I'm like, I get that, but we just built a pool Like that's not going to get paid off in like a year and we have other loans that we have to pay off first So It was like stress and then it was like it would dissipate. and the conetation would end How many kids and how old are they? Five kids. twelve year old, almost six year old, four year old and twin two year olds. Wow Okay, That's amazing Were they experiencing any aspects of what you were going through with the financial stress Did they pick up on it? No? Probably not. I don't think so. Maybe our oldest occasionally, just because maybe we weren't going out as much, but It's not something like she's ever said or Express how long have you two been together We met in high school, but we weren't like together right away. So we've known each other for Summer thir, nineteen, ninety six. Did you all grow up in the area No, military brats. So she we went to high school together for two years and then she moved her senior year to California. Okay. And so then once I graduated college, I used her to have a place to live out here. Go ahead. she used me to get out here to be an entertainment.. Okay.' been married, mared married eighteen years. Married Married eighteen years. Okay Okay, cool. I read your application And there's so many things that stood out to me. One of them, I'd like to read it back to you. Melissa, you wrote in the application. We're in major debt overver three hundred thousand dollars worth past when we've gotten out of debt It feels great But then we slowly get back into it. Can you tell me about this cycle of debt that you get in and out of I don't even know how it happens. I think even when she was making the most and we were doing really well, it would like we would still have some credit card debt Because like we would like to travel or we'd like to like go out to eat. I was a big shopper and it was very tied to like emotionally shopping Some people emotionally eat, I emotionally shop. so if I'm stressed out, I want to go and just spend more. How many years have you been in and out of debt? How old am I? forty six? s since I was eighteen. I got my first credit card. Yeah. L ever since we've been together, there's been. She never came in with deb. I never came in with deb. So I had it's always kind of been this like lingering thing that I just feel like won't go away. It stresses me out. I just wanted to stop. I wanted to go away. I would love to not have. I would love to be putting those monthly credit card payments into our kids or our investments or you know, traveling going out Um, And so it's just stressful because I just feel like we haven't weve come close so many times, I feel like. And then I don't know, it just doesn't It doesn't happen for whatever reason. And Melissa, how do you feel about that cycle of debt I hate it Like I wantan to stop it, which is I think part of the reason why I signed up for this because I'm like, I want to like stop the cycle. It's like insanity. What role do each of you play in the debt cycle, Melissa I mean, I think I do like I probably control it. I contribute to it. I'm the shopper And I make most of decisions for the family and like what's spent So in that regard, like I' the one in charge of it. And then she just kind of goes along. So I contribute by not contributing. Yeah. I guess I don't T no, I don't flag. I think I just. You don't say no Why not if you're stressed out about money? Yeah, good question. U I trust her decisions when it comes to like how much food we need for groceries and Um supplies and things our kids need, the activities. I think I've always just been the one who's like, I just make money and then I'm very easy going. It's only when we have like big purchases that I like put my foot down. Like It sounds very familiar when I talk to straight couples H like Word for word identical I just earn money. That's what men say I just focus on earning more money. She's really good at managing the household. That's very common and Pting my foot down That's very common for men to say But most of the time, like I trust her Yeah Have you heard that before? Have you ever heard men talk like that Yeah, I think I heard it on your podcast. Uncanny, right? It's like half the episodes are saying the exact same words. I'm just struck by this I appreciate it. I want to understand more about What's going on here I want to take a look at the numbers. Tarn, can you read off the words in bold and the number next to it for this entire box, please? Asets One point Four million And some change, invvestments four hundred ninety five thousand in some change. savings, fifty thousand Debt onene point two mill had some change. Total net worth? Total net worth, seven hundred sixty one thousand. Okay. Ouch. Thank you. What do you think about those numbers? I don't like those numbers at all. What do you feel when you read them out the anxiety and stress for my kids and like If we were to get hit by a bus on the way home and what that looks like for them? Yeah. Okay. thank you. Melissa, what about you? Like I've seen them so many times and I just like glaze over. A, so they don't really connect with you. Do you feel anything M Okay. And if I were to ask you, what do these numbers mean to you What would you say? Like, I don't want to deal with any of it. It's just like an annoyance that's just like there. What I'm seeing is the person quote in charge of the money in the household doesn't really want to deal with it.. Like kind of annoyed by it. It's like a nuisance to you, but you are the one who the two of you have decided consciously or unconsciously that Eulis are in charge of the money. Right? Like what if it was like childcare, for example? These little kids are kind of annoying, and it's kind of like a nuisance to me. But anyway, I'm in charge of the childcare Like we all know it's absurd But with money, it's actually surprisingly common. You make it sound so simple when you say it that way. Its just it's hard to be good at something if don't care. if you don't care. And sometimes the answer is that person maybe shouldn't be in charge of it. L for example Let's say somebody doesn't care about cleaning the mirror in the bathroom. Okay, maybe they just don't need to be in charge of that and the other person can or you can hire somebody, fine. But certain things like childcare You actually just need to find a way to care. That's it. or money Both partners just need to find a way to care and to get good. ' B Both. Because this isn't working. I mean, it's not. look, canan I just give it to her because she cares. Well, okay, that's an interesting question. You could Why haven't you because she turns it around on me and she's like don't you care so much? L no, because you don't you don't care and trust me with it I would trust you with it. I feel like now that we have these numbers, it's something she could work with because she actually knows what they are now. Like they're in a place that's very concrete before it was just kind of like Very vague But now she can see like This is specifically like our debt To be candid, these are one, two, three, four, five numbers They take leg ten minutes together. So considering that you've been in and out of debt for twenty five years, Gathering five numbers is the problem I know It's not Part of what we're going to do today is we're going pull on some threads and try to get really honest. There's something else going on here. Let's continue with the CSP. Let's talk Melissa about the combined gross monthly income. What's that number? eleven thousand nine hundred. Okay. So you're making, let's just call it twelve K. It's one hundred forty four K a year Why there are no taxes taken out? With her job and my business expenses, the way our taxes would come out is we'd end up getting money back. Got it. We're at twelve thousand bucks a month roughly from Melissa. and then nine hundred dollars a month is that from you Tern? Yeah, that's for unemployment.' Just where I'm at currently. Got it. And this is quite a striking difference because it used to be like twenty thousand a month. Yeah. Let's go on to the fixed cost number What is this number, please That number is terrible. I already know it's supposed to be lot of explanation before hearing the number. Read the number. one hundred and seventy nine percent. All right, one hundred seventy nine percent. What does that tell you Bleeding money. Yeah just looking at this number Can you cut expenses? No, no. This is not about we spent too much at brunch or we bought too many toys. It is not that. It is a structural problem that requires radical change Right there, that tells you. What this tells me is when I see a couple with this, which I believe may be the highest fixed cost number I've ever seen. Oh no That's terrible. There is a structural change that probably happened People don't typically just overspend into one hundred and seventy nine percent. That would be the job loss It tells me that the person or couple that has this is really stressed out about money Those three things. cheheck, check, check. All right. let's continue Oh, and one last thing, this It is just a matter of time until you run out of money The clock is ticking. Do you know how long until you were out of money? Well, this is a hard part. I mean, I'd say three months Max. Agreed. We already have in my mind because Really? Well don we get credit cards. There's money that we don't that we owe. Yeah, we're getting by because we're fortunate again to have be able to get a loan from some family. We have the credit cards, my severance, but it's running out So I guess technically without We have some money in our account But I feel like it's not ours 'cause we owe it to other people. We owe to credit cards. Three months until you run out of money with five kids is no joke. What has changed if anything, in your household as the clock has gotten closer to midnight we just listed our house Oh. on last week last week. Okay. Yeah. becausecauseuse I was like, we got to get out of this. like we can't stay here. To your earlier question, like when did we start to feel it? when we started building a pool? Even when I had a job And we were getting by, we still were feeling it because we still were't we didn't have that extra money for savings, that extra money to go out, all that It just felt like we were in over our heads with that house. But this isn't, we don't have money for savings. This is we are literally running out of money. So this was the push we needed. I think. me losing my job is like, okay, that like no brainer now. Like we were talking about it. Now it's like we have to we have to do it. Like we obviously can't afford this house Let's continue going on U investments are at zero Savings are at zero and then I've never seen this number before. neegative seventy nine percent is what's left over. or negative nine thousand three hundred dollars a month. You broke my CSP So what do you think about this ESP looking at it No, it's crazy. Like we're at a point where like we talk about selling our house but also because she doesn't have a job yet We're like, You're going have to rent But what are we even looking at in terms of a budget? What's the answer to that question? In my head, like I know the fixed cost should be at sixty percent. Housing should be like twenty per to thirty percent, like four thousand, four thousand five hundred doars a month. Like that's what I'm finding, like a three bedroom. And do you think that you could afford that I think in my optimistic mind, yes, I think like she's going to get a job and it's going to be okay That's where my head goes. It's interesting, like when I ask people an affordability question They never use numbers in their answer Never Can you afford a three thousand dollars mattress Well, is the most important part of your body. I go, what the? doeses that have to do with the A word affordability? When I ask an affordability question, you should pull out a calculator, but we answer with almost anything other than math. Affordability is purely about Math, can you afford it? Okay, the numbers in my head? I'm not talking about your head. We have the numbers. Look atem eleven thousand nine hundred And you're going to pay taxes on that, by the way. So your net is Let's just say nine thousand to be generous Watch this Whatas your fixed cost number just jump up to N hundred two hundred and thirty six percent. Yeah. My CSP is about to explode right now. I never saw a number with a two in front of me. Now I'll ask you again, can you afford four thousand dollars a month apartment. No. No There's no way. We could run the math and show you, but spending forty five or so percent of your money on housing with a family when inevitably things will come up is impossible You can't do it. Tarn, I wantan to check in with you. When you look at the CSP, what do you make of it major changes need to happen for us. You know, which again, I think we tried to start with that on our own. Okay. but we need someone like you to help us, but making the decision to like So the house obviously needs to happen Finding a job needs to happen. We're also open to relocating outside of LA. Oh, really. Where would you go? I have family back east. I'm looking at jobs in North Carolina, Atlanta. whereere looking Nevada. I mean, big changes need to happen. Okay This is good. to your question, like looking at that sheet and how do I feel? You know, I was very fortunate for the eleven years that I had at Netflix, a company that treated me so well, amazing benefits, amazing pay. Sadly, I don't know that I'll'll necessarily land the same kind of a thing. I think, you know, the industry is not Right now, there's tons of layoffs happening. I mean Th thousandousand people were just laid off at Disney. Meta just did some layoff. I mean, it's just all over Let me stop you right there because I know it's tempting to go boo hoo. the people who used to make tons of money aren't making quite as much money anymore Join the club. And so I get the temptation to look at people who used to have a ton of money. they don't have it anymore and go, you suck. So what? We've been here the whole time. But I want you to know that at some point in your career you or your partner will probably lose your job. How are you gonna to react when that happens What if that entire industry is decimated and you can never make the amount of money you used to make? What if you'd built a plan for your life based on the amount you were making? Most people do. And what would you do if you were faced with the question of never earning that much money again I think this is a crystal ball into what a lot of people are going to face in the next twenty four to thirty six months We've heard about AI replacing jobs It's real. People are losing their jobs because of it. And the question that I want people to answer is what do I do with the rest of my life if the amount of money I'm making now is the most I will ever make? You have to remember, most people don't plan their lives at all much less plan for their lives to go down in income But this a reality for a lot of people, including today's guests What is something big and scary that you have been putting off for months? For a lot of people, especially those who have started a family recently, it's getting a will. It's getting an estate plan set up. And instead of trying to figure it all out on your own, you can work with Trust and will to get your estate planning handled right away Trust and Will offers affordable attorney designed estate plans online that you can create in as little as thirty minutes Everything is state specific, It's tailored to your needs, regardless of what stage of life you're in. And we actually had one of my coworkers create a will using trust and will. Here's what she said. Getting started was incredibly easy. In less than an hour, I had a will, power of attorney Last willill and Testament and HIPA authorizations, all of which I downloaded and if I wanted, I could have them checked by another attorney. Their platform makes it easy to keep these things organized and updated so your loved ones don't have to manage tons of paperwork down the line Now you can use an attorney for your estate plan, but that's not an option for everyone If you know that you have loved ones that you need to protect, trust and willill is worth considering. Go to trust andwill. com slash remet to get twenty percent off. That's trustandwill d. com slash remet to get twenty percent off T R U S T A N D WI LL dot com slash Ramit The first person I ever hired in my business was a personal assistant. and I was young At that time, my friends were like, Why are you trying to show off? No, I really value convenience and I am willing to pay to make my life more convenient, likeike paying an assistant to make sure that I do not have to book my own appointments. I hate doing it, so my assistant helps with it Now, if you value convenience, there's another option, Zakdoc ZockTk is a free app and website that helps you find and book high quality in network doctors so you can find someone you love. Whether you're looking for primary care, dentistry, eye care, or any of the other two hundred plus specialties offered on ZockTalk, you can easily search by specialty or even Symptom and book those in network appointments with more than one hundred fifty thousand providers across all fifty states. You can choose in person or a video visit. You can even see verified patient reviews before booking. When you're ready, you can see their real time availability and click to book instantly. No more phone tags If I needed a new doctor, this is the first place I would look. Stop putting off those doctor' appointments and go to zocdoc d. com slash remamet to find and instantly book a doctor you love today That's ZOC doC dot com slash Remit Zakdoc d. com slash for meath Thanks Soock Dk for sponsoring this message. when there's layoffs in the industry what happens to you and to the people that were working there? For me personally, like I've told Melissa, like I'm open to not working in the industry anymore. I have an amazing broad set of skills that I've gained. and during my time at Netflix, that could be applicable anywhere else And so I'm expanding my search to jobs outside of entertainment. Do you think you can make the same amount you made there? Honestly, I doubtful of that. I'm not saying it's impossible I do think in general, there's a lot of rightsizing that's happening in companies like Netflix. I know that I was being paid very well. was there for a long time, but I know people coming in now are not making that same amount. And even in the jobs I'm looking at that are very similar just don't pay anywhere near what I was making. What would be an example? like if you were making two hundred seenty five And you're looking at compomarable jobs What are they paying U I'm lucky if they're paying like two hundred thousand. I mean, I've had to expand my search now to even look below that because just I'm not seeing the same There are some tech companies, I think a lot of AI forward companies and stuff are paying on the higher side above two hundred thousand. And so I'd be very fortunate to maybe land something there. But again, we're still living in LA and it's still not making what I was making before. Obviously like with big changes and renting instead of owning and all those things you know, hopeful I can make an amount that would allow us to potentially stay here. But she's never been married to staying in LA. We've always only stayed because of my work. Okay. I'm glad that you put the house on the market. That's a big change. Yeah. and I think that needed to happen. So I'm really happy to hear you're willing to make some big bold changes hundred percent That's's going gonna take. Yeah. Okay changes have you made in your spending? after losing like more than half of your income. I immediately called the interternet company, like, what's the lowest we can go? Got a lower Netflix subscription. You know But it just feels like that's just like pennies. I mean, it's something, right? I mean we werere trying to get a forbearance, like a temporary forbearance on a mortgage, but She went through all these hoops and they're like It was like a whole thing. We haven't been able to get it pushed through yet. So we've just been like paying it with the severance. We've been more like really more conscientious about grocery shopping and like what we're spending to try to bring that number down. we asked the family like can we stop paying? That monthly amount. Yeah, actually that was that was a big one. I mean, 'cause like we think like when we saw the house 'll pay them off. it's all die. That's the goal. Let's talk about what levers do you have to stop bleeding Not the trickle, but the bleeding. Selling the house, I feel That's the big one. Is it? M getting a job? or getting a job? Yep. Where you live? Yeah Yeah Yeah. But the other thing with that is like I built my business now for four years, like really built it up to a place where I'm making six figures. And it's like, what's the costs? of moving for a job that she could be making the same amount that I'm already making here. Have you all discussed this or decided on what to do Daily conversation. It's like, whereere you applying? Whatere does it look like? Does it make sense to move, if you get that for that amount. basased on what I have here, I'm willing to do it if it makes sense. I am at least talking to one company. It would be likely relocation, but to New York. And so it's like I don't that feels more LA.. And so And then for her business, like does that make sense? Like I don't, know, there's a possibility that there could be potential for me to stay in L.A with the role if I even get it. That's my pessimistically optimist. So how do you think about this? What you're doing right now, You get the house on the market, you're applying for jobs What if this goes on for twowoths, three months, four months. What happens? I mean, I've told her she should continue to work with the mortgage company to try a process like the forbearance. so we at least have that set up It's like after May, we still have the house and the mortgage is still there We just still go through with it? I guess worst case would be what we would foreclose on the house and then move in with family for temporary, I don't know Yeah. I mean, but I mean, I'll do this, I'll do this. I'll do that, like I'll do whatever I need to to like going and keep us under the house while we need to. She definitely doesn't like She definitely doesn't like talking about it. Like she's like, nope I don't want to put that out there. That's not option. It's not happening. We're not doing that. No like in my head, it's very much going to be like sold under sixty dates Like that's just what's happening I like optimism I like it about certain things I'm optimistic donon't like Delusion. And the stakes are too high to not have a plan B. 'cause you really could be in a bad situation. Let's just play it out for a second. I don't believe in putting bad energy out. I believe in making a plan. Let's say the house doesn't sell for at least three months. Let's say that Teran and you're not able to find a job. What happens then I'm working more. I'm taking on private clients I normally wouldn't. U lowering my rate to take on more students to teach Still can't cover it. Living with family? Yeah, but then we sell the house. I'm trying to get you to read. I know because then I'm thinking like, well, God, by then I'd hope we'd sell it. The worst case scenario, I think in my head if we lowered it, we'd pay off the house and the pole loan. we would have like nothing left. If that's like if we're talking like Bare minimum. Okay. And then what do you do? Where are you in that situation? I think then we would Move. If we hit worst case scenario, I mean, we probably would maybe move to like South Carolina or something. Yeah we honest because it's way cheaper to live there. Okay. You have family there? Yeah.. Would they let you move in? My mom said, you guys could move in. She's like, We'll move out, but you can move in. Wait, that's amazing. Yeah. one hundred percent. Yeah. Did you seriously No that that we would literally do that if we. Okay, so she hasn't said this out loud to me because in her mind, she's like, I'm never living in South Carolina. That's my choice, not because that's not where I want to live. I love my family dearly. We're super close. Like it's not It's South Carolina. I'm just not You've not seen the humidity on my hair. I cannot live there. But I yeah, worst case, if we absolutely had to, of course move in with my parents but you're also so positive. I feel like she's I'm not allowed to like say those things. No, we can have a backup plan for sure.ike that's I think I don't go to like the worstasei. I always go to the worst case scenari. She does not She's like it's very It's not gonna to happen. I don't want to put that out there. She says that to me all the time. I don't put that energy. I don't want the energy. don't that energy out there. but in my head, like that's what keeps me up at night energy valid for sure But we always had to make a plan What I want to understand here it's not just about the job loss because that obviously is a huge driver of what's going on here, but you all told me, you've been in debt for twenty years It is not about this job. So The real question The question that should consume you is how did we get here? And what's going to stop us from getting right back in here I mean, you told me that in your application. Yeah. We've been in debt before. And it feels good when we pay it off and then we end right back up in it. Yeah. And I'm not hearing much of that. The whole fact, Melissa, that you mentioned I don't want to talk about that potential negative stuff that puts bad energy. That's actually one of the reasons that you've ended up in debt. So the simple stuff to do here is like, yeah, sell the house, pay off the debt, that'll be nice. But y'all will end up right back in this in two and a half years if you don't actually look at what's truly going on here at the root cause level Which level do you want to go to? We can stay at the sell the house level or we can go to the I want to stop the cycle. Okay How do we do that? Great, we can work with that. Tell me about the debt What is the debt made up of? It's the fact that we couldn't afford the house that we're in and everything else goes on the credit card. It's the gas, groceries, every other bill goes on the credit card. Yes, I agree Everything flows over there. And it's almost like bucket of money for your housing is too small And so that's overflowing and it's overflowing into the next bucket, which is typically bills and that's Oflowing now and it's crowding out any room for savings, investing, even guilt free speing. But the thing is you're still spending it goingoing out to eat when you have fifty thousand dollars of credit card debt Not in my world Yeah No way Have you ever considered that? Melissa just saying, we're not doing that Yeah Yes, I must speak for you. Yes,. And It's because she doesn't want to cook. So when I get tired of doing all the cooking, I'm like, can we just like order something, makeake it easy So it's one of those things where it's like taking off something from my plate to like just have like a peaceful night. Wow. Yeah. Was that supposed to work on me? No. I't no no I understand, but like a family that's in fifty thousand dollars of credit card debt It's just a simple answer. they just don't eat out. D. I don't know. I'm just thinking about like how I grew up And It's just not even a question. We just don't do it What do you think about that Well, I agree with that. because I think me growing up, my parents terrified me of credit cs. They're like, you're spending money you don't have. You only have a credit card for emergencies. L your car breaks down, and you five hundred, you need to fix it, whatever. And then you know when I got together with Melissa, it was just very different you know, she had some debt and it was just like You know, she's a very hard worker and it's like she wants to enjoy life. You only live once and you want you want the things you want. you know and Like I said, she runs the house. I need to step up more I know that. There's a lot on her shoulders. And I think at the end of the day, it's like She does some of these little things it just feels good and she works hard. She deserves it too U but We're now at a place where we have kids. It's different. It's exhausting. Having five kids. We love ' them to death, but I can't stand cooking. the be of my existence and like I'm with the kids all day now because I'm not working. A lot of shlepping back and forth, school things and this and that. And then you know the last thing I want to do is cook a meal and the last thing she wants to do from working all day is cook a meal. We both give in. We know we shouldn't, but we did because it was like we were exhausted and it was easy. that adds up and we know its we know it's wrong Yeah T What do you remember about your family saying? around money when you were growing up. I don't feel like we talked about it a lot. We rarely went out to eat, but it wasn't ' we couldn't afford it. it was just like that was a special treat. But like when we went out, it was like for a birthday or whatnot. So it always was exciting to go out to eat. It's partly why I love going out to eat now because I didn't go out a lot as a kid So nothing ever negative. I don't remember them fighting about money. We didn't really talk about it. We didn't live lavishly, but we lived a good life. We took trips. Got great gifts. They taught me hard work ethic. My parents work very hard. They earn their money and you know they spend it on experiences and family things and fun. They teach you Any about money growing up? I was fortunate. they paid for my school, but they put it in my name and then paid off the loans right away so that I would be set off for success with good credit score and stuff like that. so they talked about that. I will clarify, my parents were not all about us buying this house. They definitely said like I don't know if you should. did you say? I was very hung up on like, I feel like we wanted to take this moment to invest in Melissa's career and we need a pool to do it. We tried to find a place with a pool and we couldn't. And we felt really confident that if we had a pool We could really build her business, which we have. She's doing kick ass job with her business has built a great clientele in our area. And so that we got from it, obviously, that's not going to pay the bills right now. And in the beginning, I didn't know all these extra costs. We lived in the city for years. L the last thing I was thinking about is that it's going to be a couple grand to like shave the hedges so often and to clear the hill and Um, you know termites and you know, the AC like things like that that we didn't really we don't have to deal with that stuff in the city. So yeah, so I was like You know, I hear you respectfully, but like I think this is this is our best option. How much will you make when you sell the house. Ball park I think if we saw for the amount that we werere hoping to that I could go for Like walking away? No, I think it was like two hundred fifty thousand. two hundred fifty thousand. Yeah. That's after all fees and everything. Okay, that's a lot. And does your realtor or the person you're using to sell the house, where they think you're going to get? The strategy of this is to come in at a price that people aren't going to be like, but they'll come in and they'll look at it and they'll be sold on in the place and get over asking is the goal? Got it. Tarn, are your parents still alive? A they still together? They're still together, still alive. G South Carolina. And how are they doing financially? Great. Good Yeah. Melissa, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up Both my parents I just remember feeling their stress because I remember hearing about They' credit card debt. And they were both big spenders. And I remember when they divorced like feeling a wight for them because I knew they were going to be able to sell this house that they had and like, pay off their debt Oh, I know This sound familiar. That does sound familiar. Fast forward thirty or forty years. Okay. we had a very good Like upbringing, like we didn't go out to eat a lot because that was always special if we did. But we didn't lock for anything. Also, when you're in the military, you have a lot of resources that are free. so it's not like you're paying a lot So it's a different lifestyle. I also came out of it with grandparents who are entrepreneurs and built this multimillion dollar business. I think my parents always had like support if they needed it And so in my mind I feel like We would have support if we needed it. Are your parents? My parents are divorced. And how are they doing financially? They're good. but I feel like That's always an option. Where does this idea you have that they will always be there to help you What's behind that? Because my dad has said like if you like I'm here, if you really need something. Do you need help right now? No, ' I don't want to I feel like that's like the worst case scenario. And I don't want it because I think in my mind If I always think that, then it's always there and then I'm not going to really change my habits. You're not religious, right I am are. We're Catholic. Yeah. And you grew up religious.. We both grew up Catholic. And God provides. Yes. That is a very common phrase How do you think that you're Catholicism, especially growing up, changes your interpretation of money today. I don't even know. I mean, honestly, I haven't even thought about it. Let's think about it. God provides. So finish the end of that sentence. Like something always come along to help. Okay What else I'm a little bit different when it comes to I'm again, I'm more the pessimistic. like, you know, like her family's very much like, she's gott to pray on it, gota do this. Yeah. But I don't think that's gonna let's pray on it. Pay on it.. So finish the end of the sentence Let's pray on this so that when everything works out probably I'm willing to bet You grew up with ten thousand examples like that It will be okay God will provide, let's pray on it. And that's pervasive, right? It shapes your view of the way the world is And it's interesting that you also group Catholic You're like God provides, but I don't believe it. Well, you gott to still earn it. Like I don't think God's just gonna like like to me, I like we were raised Catholic, but we're not like crazy Bible bumpers and stuff. there's just a lot of tradition and stuff that we love about it. My parents was very much more like, you work hard, you know. And it's like like even in this position now, my mom sending me listings to like work in the school district. She's like, Nobody ever thinks about that. You don't have to just be a teacher. There's otherob in the school district and there's great benefits, and there's like hundreds on the site Take a look I didn't really predict that one. they are both religious I was starting to get curious. This is why I asked Melissa, you're not religious, are you? becausecause there was certain elements that were speaking to me. you know, this idea of like, a, good things will come And the minute she said, Oh yeah, I'm religious. I was like Really, But what surprised me even more was Terrn growing up religious. And to me, this actually is just a perfect example that people grow up with different belief systems, sometometimes they grow up poor, sometimes they grow up wealthy, and often they will go one direction or another. They will be hyperfrugal or they'll spend everything they make The key insight is, you can never predict it. So in this case, look at that. The two of them grew up religious. One of them goes, God will provide. The other one goes, I don't really believe that. I'm just worried about money. But interestingly, when it comes down to their actual money behavior Both of them Pretty avoid it I built my company knowing that I wanted to work remotely and I wanted my entire team to be able to do the same. We work at home, we work from coffee shops, sometometimes we take calls while doing walks. And we all love the flexibility. But sometimes it makes it hard to sit down and type long emails which is why we love this episode's sponsor, Whisperflow. Whisperflow turns the way you naturally talk into clean, ready to send text in any app on any device. I'm talking about Slack, Gmail, notion IMessage, even chat GPT and Claude on Mac Windows and Android. With Whisperflow, you just hit a hotkey, speak, and the text appears way faster than typing it. Plus, it's smart, it's adaptive so you don't send a block of huge incoherent text And unlike other dictation apps, it corrects mistakes, it gets names right the first time, and it can format bullet points and lists on the fly. I find that particularly useful. So if you send tons of emails and messages every day, if you want to be able to capture your own ideas just by talking Whisperflow is a no brainer. Get one month of Whisperflow pro for free at whisperflow. Ai slash remet That's whisperflow d. ai slash remat W IS P flow. Ai slash remet or click the link in the description. You ever hear this phrase that when men get married, they live longer? I thought that was a little insulting and then it happened to me. I started flossing more. I started doing freaking mobility work, and my wife taught me how to go to sleep on time instead of scrolling Rddit for five hours of pointless activity. And I gotta tell you, it wass a lot easier to stick with it because I sleep incredibly well thanks to the Lisa mattress that we purchased for our apartment Lisa has a lineup of beautifully crafted high quality mattresses. whether you sleep on your side, your back, somewhere in between, they've got a mattress that's built for you. And from the first night you're going to feel the difference. They use premium materials in every mattress and they are designed for full body support Every Lisa mattress is assembled in the US and it comes with free shipping, easy returns, and a sleep trial of one hundred and twenty nights. Plus, they have a helpful sleep quiz to figure out which mattress is the best fit for you in under two minutes. Go to lisa. com for twenty five percent off mattresses plus an extra fifty dollars off with promo code rememit, that's exclusive for my listeners. That's lEESA. com promo code rememet for twenty five percent off mattresses, plus an extra fifty dollars off. Support our show and let them know we sent you after checkout Lisa. com promo code Remit How do the two you reconcile this different way of looking at the world She's also a hard worker, though, I'm not saying she's not just to clarify. Well, I also think you leave out the part, like her growing up with her family They didn't really teach her about money. Like they said what you should and shouldn't do. But like I had a grandma who bought stock for me and she said, any amount you give me all match And so I grew up knowing a little bit about investing. And so I think like in our relationship, It's fallen to me to like think about that kind of stuff and like invest ' she's always like,, you know it better. Like you know they talk me about like savings and stuff. but I think when it comes when we talk about investments specifically in stock and I just don't too me, that feels like a foreign language. Like I want to invest and do the things and I just don't even know where to start to learn that. Hold on, you don't know where to start learning about investing.ich is why we're here. Can we get in tit all? Look at these two books. If only there were books that were available for free every public library in America. She doesn't read What is that though? Because you're obviously successful enough to have had a three hundred thousand dollars a year job. So donon't believe that you just don't get investing. I don't put the effort there. I put so much into the job that I have that when I come home I like shut down in that way and I'm not as on top of it, which sucks for her because then she's the one who has to be super on top of it at home. Why haven't you tried to change that? Prob because I know she'll do it. Yes. And yeah, I think I've leaned heavily on her for that People often behave in really peculiar ways. You kind of look at it, you go like rationally, that doesn't make sense. logically, it doesn't make sense. And you keep digging it and you discover often, not always, but often They're subsidized in some way. There is somebody else there. taking care of things. And it could be a wife, it could be parents who send money There's something going on that allows people to often act in peculiar ways, just to put a really fine point on it. Night to be dark about this, but if You got hit by a bus. You would change very quickly. Yeah Can we agree? I think about that all the time. It stresses me out so hard. Melissa, what happened as you got older as you became a teenager with money in your family? Anything changed then? We had to put ourselves to college. so I was like, let me get through college, let me get through do it fast because I was working like two serving jobs to put myself through And then I like got straight into the workforce. Do your parents haveave any input on your finances or the bothoth of your finances No. I mean, we talk to them about it. like we'll go to them for advice and stuff, but no. What they say I mean, where's my mom saying? Don't use credit card, donon't eat out. I mean, all the obvious things, All all thatuff But she was also someone who was like, got you should buy a house. Do you tell her now like the situation Yeah, And I'm like, yeah, it' actually bought a house. And what did she say She's like, well, I don't know. you know, it's still good. like there's still money in it I'm like, yeah, but we were already in over our heads. It's quite amazing that all the people who were so kind of like loud, vociferous about you need to buy a house Then the minute it doesn't go right, they all kind of like vanish. And they're like, I don't know. I mean, I guess it depends. Like what the I bought this house because you told me to old's an old house. Yeah. But also ' you did not run the numbers as well. Yes How do each of you think that You are bringing the money messages you grew up with to this relationship Wor hard, play hard Okay, Work guard, yeah. what else And financially specific? Yeah U Did your mom pay attention to money? Yeah,. Yeah. she like runs the house Do think there's anything there that you're bringing here? Maybe I leaned on their support. I knew things would get taken care of. Did your dad pay attention to money I wouldn't say that he doesn't, but I think he my mom handles like all the finances and Is Melissa the equivalent of your mom when it comes to money in how she thinks of money? She's the one who manages it day to day. Oh yes. I would say my mom is the one who decides like what they spend on and I. I mean, she can she talks to my dad about it, but yeah to And so what does that Make you. My dad. And your dad's relationship with money was what? Very easy going, like trust. it's the same. same thing.'s the same thing. L She litally like married her mom So many of us co create what we grew up with And we don't realize it. Did you realize that? No. Till now uill now. I not like that. think about it. Yes. more clearly now.. someome aspects, yes I think that there's probably more room for silence in your relationship. It's crazy I'm saying. I don't think I've ever said that to a couple in my life. but I think that sometimes you diffuse the potency of what you are discovering by talking You just made a massive realization And your first tendency was what? To doc explain it? To explain it, to caveat it. Well, it's actually about this, but it's not about that and. And now you all forget what just happened The central point of what you just discovered is Massive. I have co created the relationship that my parents had in Financial area. Holy First of all, how'd that happen Second of all, what are the implications 'causeuse like Melissa is not like my mom in this way, but in that way she is. And in fact, didn't we once joke about this a couple of years ago? And so if that makes her the mom, then my dad was easy going Which I love that about him. and I'm easy goingo, but has my easy goingoness contributed to us being in one point two million dollars of debt? You cannot do that while talking. You can only do that in silence if both of you give it the space Something I would encourage you to practice and work on. Okay. Melissa, what messages about money from your childhood do you bring to this relationship? Oh, that like thatt is okay. Everybody has debt. Everybody has debt. You'll get out of it somehow likeike sell a house if you have to, which is crazy that that takes that to do that. forty years later, same thing. Yeah. When they sold their house, they were able to pay off debt. Now you're in the situation you sell off house Hopefully paid off. what else Who will provide? God will provide. God will provide So since God will provide and you get these one time episodic sources of income like selling a house There's no real need to manage money carefully day to day In fact, I deserve Have a nice time and spend money. And what about the dynamic? two of you. You're the one who manages it all, manages the mans it all, runs a household. And your partner? Well, I used to make money, but now I know. Well now now I'm the child. Now she's like the nanny. No. She's like she's a stay at home mom. B, that's true. Both of you have oscillated between who makes more and not, which is normal. That's actually quite common. But in the dynamic, when the two of you talk about money and when you practice money What is the role that each of you plays I' the controller of it. Yes. Good. That's a good word. You were the controller of it. Do you control money effectively in your family? No. aggreed. Tarn, you are the Bystander I would say, you agree? Yes. I think that's true. I think those are actually very powerful words. The controller and the bystander. In a way, it's no surprise that you have gotten into debt. You have somebody who loves to spend money. You have admitted that controlling the money, but you don't really like looking at it. In fact, when I put those numbers up, you were visibly uncomfortable. You're like, I don't want to look at this. I want it out of here. So that's the controller. And then the bystander for a long time makes the money And then goes, That's my job. That's my job. I'm done. you take care of it. In fact, you're so good at this, even though you both admit that you're not that good at this This is very classic. What do you make of this assessment that she needs to be the controller Maybe a different way to put it is I, Melissa am not functioning effectively as a controller today We don't know what the solution is yet, but we certainly know this is not working. Would you agree? Yeah. Okay. What do you got, Tarn? I think it needs to be more of a team effort. I need to step it up more H be more vocal. Why are you bystanding Easier? Yeah. True? What else? She runs the house. I feel like she has that authority to decide. Like how things should go. Like I can get my opinion, but She may not like it, and then at the end of the day, it's like, no, this is what we're doing. Ah, she's the one who says, this is what we're doing. With certain things. Yeah. I would say. Who says it with money? Probably more you. Again, it's only like big, big things. I feel like if I'm watching what's happening right now, like I'm putting on my infrared goggles What I see is this ball of responsibility, like the leader of money. and I'm asking like Who leads with money? and each of you is kind of like, I don't want that No, you're like trying tos it invisibly back and forth. Am I reading that correctly? Yeah The joke is people always think that I'm like the boss in a relationship, but really when it comes down to like the big purchases in life Like she's the one who makes a final say So all the day to day stuff is on me. And so I would be the one that does it all. Do you know that she is not effectively controlling the money? Do you Internalize that? I do more now. Before You didn't? No. I think I just hoped it was like working out and the r was still over your head. and so I was like, it must be fine. Yeah. I'm making a lot of money. We must be doing fine. Once I was laid off though, feeling more like, yeah, no this was we made bad choices. but still not like Hey, we made bad choices. let's like decompose what's going on because that would raise a lot of uncomfortable questions. like should Melissa be in charge or quote, the controller? Do I need to Do I need to recalibrate this relationship That's all very uncomfortable So Let's just sell the house That'll get us some cash. We can like solve this problem for now and then like we'll go like We'll figure things out later That's the step we took. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it was easier becausecause again, like I think for her mental stay and emotional stay at the time when she lost her job, I don't think she was in a place to have that conversation. Yeah. So I think we just like avoided it. Yeah. And she wasn't going to take that on Keep in mind, I agree, it's tough to lose a job, especially in an environment like this where Like A a lot of people have lost their job in that industry, but you haven't had that conversation in twenty years So it's not only about the job. It is comfortable. You are in a comfortable situation, but the fact of the matter is when we're looking at the objective numbers, you are drowning. And my fear is that you will get right back into this scary situation Yeah. I think in my head, if we don't buy a house again, we won't get into that situation. But you will. I just showed you, if you rent for four thousand dollars a month, you will be in debt in less than a year. What's happening here is this idea of like It will work itself out God will provide, which is a good phrase, but it is Not tangible. It's not It's showing up in peculiar ways. I'm not saying that belief is wrong. I'm saying My mom has a sign that says trust in God, but lock your car. means make a plan. And so God may provide, but you need to Create the outcome that you want and hope for some help What do you think? Yeah. one hundred percent. Cool. That means the two of you You could sell the house. I think that's great Um That's like not going to change anything until the two of you change it. Are you willing to do that? Yeah. Great. Do you see a therapist?ot Not anymore. We used to. I would encourage you to see one because recalibrating relationships one of the hardest things to do really hard. But it can be done. a hundred percent, I have confidence you could do it. You both are very converversant. I think you are starting to appreciate the severity of the situation, which is selling the house is not actually going to save us. It'll give us a stopgap It'll buy us some time But we're getting right back into it. Whether we live here, there, rent buy, doesn't matter. It's us How do you feel about that? Yeah. Iree with that. Uncomfortable, goodood. That's so good. That's the first uncomfortable part. There's gonna be many more. And actually I love that. The best growth comes from these uncomfortable feelings. Like think about someone learning a language It's so scary the first time you go order coffee But you can't you can't actually get good unless you do it The first time you go to a gym, the first time you Hold your baby, all of these things, it's uncomfortable But like we cannot get truly good unless we do that and we go right into it. What does your rich life look like in the future. It's like traveling the world with our kids.. Like in my mind, I wanted to save up for a trip in twenty twenty eight that we could go visit my friend in Paris. Go back to Spain Go to maybe Italy or back to Portugal. How long would you go for Like three weeks. Okay Cool. What else? is in your rich life? Not being in debt. Okay. Being debtree. let's call it being debt free. Being debt free. Good. Good. What else? And just like continuing quality time with like Tarn and our kids Nice. Okay. anythingything about like food, anythingy about like purchases you want to make? Yes, I wouldd love to like Be be comfortable enough to like eat out once a week. Okay. Once a week with the family or the two of you. Either. Great. Before we continue, I want to let you know that the next part of this conversation touches on child loss and grief If this is a difficult topic for you to listen to, you may want to skip ahead by about three minutes. Tarn, what about you? Very similar Number one, debt free. I want that weight off my shoulders. Okay. Number one Tra Travel is very important to both of us. It was a grieving mechanism for us when we lost one of our children. And so travel is very important to us, and we haven't been able to do that. Take your time. And then just like, yeah, then beyond that, being able being able to just like, hey, let's go on a date night or G out to with the kids and just not feel guilty about it, you know, like ordering the food and stuff. Don't want a big house, don't want a fancy car Want the deck g I like that Why is talking about this making you emotional? I think obbviously thinking about my daughter, I think a lot of our spending started after that too. I didn't know that. I'm so sorry. Thank you. You know, we were in that place where like life became very like precious, obviously where putting stuff on a credit card didn't feel as's like You know, it was our therapy and it's partart of what got us through that and I think that obviously that contributed to some of that Again, before the House and all the other things that probably, you know just saying this now, I think probably contributed towards it. Yeah. D you ever make that realization like before now connection between the loss of a child to spending? I don't know. Maybe like kind of here and there like subconsciously I think it was was easy to be like Who knows if we'll be here tomorrow? Like we need to enjoy our lives, you know? Yeah we live one. We definitely went through a period of that, I think. Yeah. How long ago did you lose your daughter? Almost eight years ago, years ago It's um That's probably the toughest thing anybody has to go through. I'm sorry. Thank you. Thank you. Why don't we take five minutes? Let's take a break and we'll come back and pick it up. Okay Iid't want to do my ugly crushase. I didn't know that they had lost a child. And it came up quite late in our conversation. Once they told me that, it actually started to make a lot more sense. I certainly cannot understand the grief of losing a child. When Tern explained that to me and teaered up, it helped me to understand that there was so much more going on here than just eating out than just spending a few dollars they couldn't afford How would any of us react if we went through unimaginable grief, losing a parent, losing a partner, losing a child? I don't think their loss explains everything that's going on here, but it certainly helps me get a little bit more color on who they are and what they've been through I haven't been through the type of grief that a lot of people in my community have been. My parents are both still alive. I haven't lost a sibling. When people tell me what it felt like, You start to grasp this part of humanity that you simply have not experienced yet. But you know Quite hauntingly, it is just a matter of time This idea that things will never feel the same again this idea that you simply wish you could go back and have one more day with the person that you love And of course, when it comes to your finances, that becomes the last thing on your mind. Health Death When those things happen, they are all consuming. So I appreciate both of them sharing this with me. I appreciate everyone who comes on the show, especially those who share some of the grief that they have experienced. Some of us have not experienced it yet will some of you have. And I think for all of us, we can appreciate how difficult it must be or it has been. And it gives us a lot more compassion for every single person on this show Welcome back. I was thinking about what you described as your rich life. So I want to read it back to you. You told me, Melissa, traveling with the whole family, being debt free and eating out like, let's say once a week. Tarn, you told me being debt free, traveling eating out once in a while And you made a point, donon't need a big house Don't need a fancy car Can I add food delivery meal planning for that to that rich life? Yeah, yeah, you can add it's your rich life, for sure. So food delivery, how often Like three times a week. Okay. All right. What do you think is the path from here to there? So for me, the first step is we're selling the house. We have to get out of the house. Okay. I have to get a job. Okay. Potentially work more, potentially we sit down and talk about, does it make more sense to stay in LA or not Like obviously we've been trying to standay in L because of her Ii and tell, maybe it makes more sense that we move So I think how we get there is Obviously change, which we've talked about So aside from the obvious thing, sell the house, get jobs. hold on. Th these are important. I like where you're going. Sell the house. And then what? What do you do with the money We've talked about Paying off debt. Okay. So paying off the money we owe for the pool loan and for the money we borrowed fence the concrete and the mortgage. And the mortgage, obviously. So theoretically you could walk away being debt free. Depending on what you sell it for. Correct. Or you might have a little bit of debt left over, some amount. Correct. Okay. let's say you have a little extra money from the house sale. what would you do with the money I think if I'm still unemployed, you know, we want to look to rent, we have to be able to show some sort of income be able to say, hey, we have this. we can put it towards know additional rent if we have to because I don't have a income to actually get a place to live in. Yeah. So you take that and maybe use that. Okay. And speaking of income sources, Melissa, what are you going to do since you won't have a pool in your backyard So if I want to talk to other families that'll let me teach out of their pools A extremely great if I can say One of the things that I probably would have done before I installed a two hundred thousand dollars pool I would have asked like, hey, is there any other way instead of us spending two hundred grand because how much you charge people when they Come over like two thousand dollars per student. For how long? For seven weeks. Yeah. So that takes a long time to recoup the profit on. Is there any other way It might actually be cheaper for me to get a freaking Uber to somebody's pool every time than to install one hundred fif to two hundred thousand dollars pool in my backyard. These are kind of the questions I want you to start thinking of. Okay, so take the money, any profit leftover, use it to live while you find a job. correct. You're gonna be teaching at other people's pools. so you should be able to keep your clientele up for the most part, right I'm with you so far. What's next child care. So again, depending on if I have a full time job, we obviously need child care for when the hour she's working.. If I don't have a job, I would be that childcare. So I think that's obviously the big if. like there's two paths, right? Like do I have a job, that what does that look like If I get a part time job, does what I'm making part time equate to what we would pay for child carere? Maybe, maybe not. So those are the questions I think we need to dive into next. If you did all of these things and maybe you get childcare or you stay home or get a part time job What do you think just intuitively, what happens with your finances That's where we're kind of like stuck because we look at it and we're like Whate we make whatever havever from the house would go towards paying rent somewhere unless we realistically were like We're dropping everything remre moving to like moveving with your parents. which then I'm not working because I'm stick with the LA thing.. Don't get things confused. This is what happens. Okay. I need you to stay with one idea and play it out. So you stay in LA, you rent, you're renting for, let's say, four or five thousand dollars a month Mhm Maybe you get a job, maybe not, childcare, etcetera. whatever. What's happening with your finances? Well, this is what I would like to do is figure out what should we be putting towards savings? How can we invest? Do you even have enough every month to make savings You know No, at five thousand dollars a month for rent Your business may stay the same, mayaybe it goes down a little bit. We don't know what's going to happen with your job, maybe it's great, maybe not. Just intuitively Y' all are just setting yourself up to struggle again for the next five years, be right back into debt. Why are you not coming to that realization No, I think because in my mind, she's going to get a job And that's gonna help us have that money to Make our fixed costs less if she gets a job, she said it probably won't be nearly as much as she was making. and you're now going to have How many thousands of dollars a month in childcare? A lot Mhm I think there's some of this kind of prosperity gospel thing happening right now. It's just like Let's just like kind of work hard and like It will be provided for us We're now talalking about, do you all want to be in the same position struggling with money for the next forty years. No. And because the path you just told me does not lead you to travel. There's no traveling in that path where you can barely scrape together the money per month. Right now, you don't even have a savings habit But how are you gonna save when you have way less money? I think I thought a portion of like the house wouldould maybe go to investments? Okay, I'm sure it could. Or savings But then it's like, how much is left over to help with Rnt You have to live somewhere? I mean, I think when we were talking about numbers, we thought, well, our mortgage won't be eight thousand dollars a month anymore. It would be hopefully five. Um we wouldn't have the loans payments. That's another twenty three hundred, whatever. Likeiterally doing the numbers and we're like, okay, like that cut our monthly in half by selling our house.hhould we look at the CSP? Show me what you did. Let's take a look So Right now you know, your fixed costs are like two hundred and thirty six percent.. Your current mortgage is seventy eight dollars ny nine cents. Let's take that down. What do you say Conservatively five thousand. Yeah. All right And your utilities, let's called it two hundred fifty.. Fair. All right. Insurance, let's keep it Okay. Car payment, let's keep that. Debt payments, let's put it at one thousand just to be conservative. Okay. All right. Groceries, let's keep that Close, let's keep that phone, kids' activities Subscriptions we're going to keep and miscellaneous Keep. You're at fifteen thousand dollars per month You're still at one hundred and seventy six percent, three times higher than you should be What does that tell you? And so this is based on if I don't have a job, right? Insurance would go down because our HOA is really high because Id run a business out of our home. All right, let's drop it. So that would get rid of Probably like a thousand dollars at least. Let's drop it. eight hundred thirty nine. It might even be less than that. You're at one hundred and sixty five percent. And let's go ahead and add another add your income. So how much do you think you would net? one hundred thousand? one hundred thousand. So let's say you would net just for easy math seeven thousand a month, let's just say, watch. Okay. You're down to eighty three percent. Still way too high, but within striking distance, however, we need to add childcare Child carere is How much for five kids I got in trouble one time, because I was surprised childcare for like one kid was, I don't know, twenty five hundred and everybody came after me on the internet, which fair enough, my bet T thousand five hundredars a month? Yeah,. How much is it for five kids? It's two hundred dollars a day And it's four days a week. So it's eight hundred times sixteen times thirty two hundred hundred a month 's crazy for just that many hours. Let's put it down three thousand two hundred. I'm gonna put it here. We're now at eighteen thousand or one hundred three percent. That's the ball game unsustainable. Do you see how just two minutes worth of planning shows you that you would spend the next ten years of your life anxious guilty, stressed and failing That's all it took. Maybe we're right or wrong by ten percent or even twenty five percent, but that's it. It doesn't matter. the game is over and you lost. So what does this tell you? I don't know some big change, but I don't know. Yes. What that is Good. at least that That's good. I agree. It's got to be something bigger than You working harder Tear you getting a job Maybe even get paid an extra three thousand dollars wouldn't really change anything. Right. What's the next biggest change? that you have to make. I think it's where we live. Tell me. becausecause obviously LA is way expensive Yes as we're seeing So I think that's probably the first B decision we need to discuss is where do we live? No time like the present. Yeah, but realistically, this is a thought that goes through my head What is the cost of My clientele here in the business that I have versus moving not having that money N necessarily having her having a job wherever we move and Then we have no income coming in. Here's the reality. you've done a great job with your business. You're making six figures. It's very impressive. Unfortunately, even with your business at the level it is You can't survive here It's just impossible Once that income went away and the fact that you have five children and all these other expenses, That decision was made And so The hardest part of facing the numbers might be confronting the reality that the changes you have to make are bigger than you ever thought possible. Because to me the worst thing is you go the next five years of your life stressed going right back into debt and you took that one opportunity you had of selling a house and just squandered it because you didn't have these tough conversations Clay out with me for a second. Let's say that you accept business provided for you that chapter is over What would you do? And like, how much would Rnt be somewhere else Is that much cheaper? Your mind is doing the thing where you're trying to Unconsciously, argue against moving. What your mind is trying to do is get you to just stay in comfort. I know LA, I know we can make it work. We've done it before. No you can't You have not made it work. You have over a million dollars of debt, the voice in your head. is not the voice that I want you to trust. And I hate to say that because I want you to trust yourself. I want you to trust the two of you, but you need to use numbers. Go ahead Taron, I know you got something on your m I feel like the first thing we would think about is, you know, we don't want to stop her career is what are some good locations where you could rebuild? Oviously they wouldn't pay the same? Let's think about places that are more affordable Can you actually build a business there? Yes or no, great. Then we can think about the next steps from there. like what is the cost of living there? What do I need to make? And then what do you need to supplement for us to be able to get that number down. That percentage down. I think that's a good start. Can I make some observations? Let's say you picked a mid cost of living area, let's say Austin, Texas, I'm just picking random places out. Well like Vegas would be a place that I know. Vegas. great example. B a business. So could build a business. The weather is very favorable for your business Cost of living would come way down So in your situation, I would play that out. like how much could you make? And the first year is going to be difficult, you got to build up that business What kind of job could you get Your rent would be way lower. and could we even economize more and like really crunch it in for a while until we hit this muchun in savings and then get a bigger space and then play that out Okay so that's one way to go. Yeah. Can I make the observation about somethingomething I feel is like right on in the middle of us You know what it is, right? I have No idea. Your family. Oh. I know you don't wantan to go to South Carolina, but just play the idea for a second. If you went there, would they charge you rent? No No. No. So keep going. Play that out for just a second So we move out there, we wouldn't be paying rent. So we'd have bit more time to get up they have a pool so I could teach. They wouldn't mom' very very happy right now watching this. I'll than you that much.. Keep going. So we'd have more time to like for me to build my business there So here's the only the other big thing about not just the humidity with my hair Our lifestyle, being a gay couple I'm not saying that can't exist in South Carolina, but where my parents live. that's it's still definitely like There's a lot of segregation I know that it's come a long way, but we live in a bubble here. and we're able to have these five kids and not be completely judged and feel safe with our kids and stuff. So that is definitely something that's not working in our favor if we were to go to that small town that my parents live in, actually for me, that's been probably the bigger factor for me not wanting to go back there. Yeah. For me that would be worst case scenario, which we're clearly in. but you know, and it would be temporary, but I wouldn't want that to be our forever. If we had to, we absolutely would. I really appreciate you sharing that and I hate that we are in a situation where this is even a consideration And in my wish, we don't even This wouldn not be something we even talk about or have to worry about. But I think it's real Have you ever talked about this together? Yeah. o. Yeah. Okay. Beause she again, I've been the one keeping us in LA when I've had my job. We've stayed here for my job. She's been ready to like go. She's used to moving every five years, being military family, all that. My family would love it.ike she's like,, let's move to Charlotte, North Carolina.ike My my family would love Lo having me closer. I'd love to be closer to my family, but that's always been And my brother argues that Charlotte's way more progressive in that way and which I'm sure it is. canan we look at the numbers This is one of those things where I think we need to start with numbers and then weigh in all the very important non financial considerations which are legit. So if we take a look Let's try Nevada. Let's just model it and play for a second. Okay. We're going to find a three bedroom apartment or townhouse. It's fifteen hundred to three thousand. Since you have five kids, you want to try B of a place that's safe, et cetera. Three thousand bucks, all right Utilities are whatever, will'll keep that. It's going to be lower than that one hundred fifty I think insurance has to be low Insurance. Yeahah, okay, let's bring it to five hundred, though. You do have five kids and you know, et ccetera. I don't wanna be too crazy here. Debt payments, let's keep it at a thousand just in case the house Groceries at sixteen hundred? No. Could you't pay sales tax eith there? No. I'm just saying y you can't spend that money. Yeah no, no. We've been clerel hundred. We've been closer to talk twelve hundred clothes, three hundred. I think I just put them in there just as a buffer. Okay, one hundred, you do have kids Pone, fine, kids activities U Yeahes, so that four thousand seven hundred dollars a month. No Oh, that's medical too. Oh That's a big. This is your childcare and Kids activities. Well, kids activities would probably go away because I wouldn't wouldn't be here and doing that. Walk in the desert, goodbe. What is So how much we putting? two hundred bucks a month? Yeah. That's not a lot It is what it is. hundred And then what's this thir thousand two hundred? That's childca childcare. You're going have to have it, right? Yeah Let's keep it the same. Maybe it's a bit cheaper, but let's keep it. Subscriptions atar oneleven hundred and thirty dollars. Yeah, right. Yeah, fifty dollars fif a month. All right. and then miscellaneous at two thousand bucks, Yeahah, right Y'all have three hundred and fifty dollars to figure out your miscellaneous, which is things that come up highires, et ccera. So you need to plan for that. It's going to be hard. That's actually challenging This is what it needs to be I just got news. this actually is at two thousand dollars a month for your rent is bigger than your current house But, That's crazy. You're currently at nine thousand nine hundred and twenty three. He, wow Look at that fixed cost number. fifty five percent. Well That's actually pretty cool. I did not expect that. Now I want to point something out. Let's say your debt does get paid off, okay? either through the house or eventually, you pay it off. Watch what happens to this number. I'm gonna take it to zero. You're not paying a thousand dollars a month anymore. Whoa, Y fixed cost dropped to fifty percent. That's actually amazing. like incredible. which means you have nine This can't be right. nine thousand dollars a month to play with. No, because that's based on an income that we're making anymore though. Oh yeah. Let's fix it. How much would you make boy, it's gott to come way down, right? down Like two thousand, three thousand? I'd say maybe three thousand. Okay, mayaybe less. twenty thousand five hundred do Let's be conservative.. And then Tarn. U I It's gott be last. eighty thousand thousand, eighty thousand. I have no idea. eightighty thousand, let's say five thousand. let's say five thousand. I think you could find something there for sure Oh Whoa. Oh my gosh, that's crazy. Back up to one hundred and nineteen percent on. Yeah. and I want to add your debt payments back and watch this. You're now at one hundred and thirty two percent What does it tell you They can't afford rent. Yeah. You can't afford this very quick Back of the napkin that I did, even if you cut it by thirty percent. For you cannot afford that. Tell me what's going through your head right now. I'm like, A I moving to South Carolina? Shall we play that out for a second?ure. Because remember what we're doing here. We are starting with the financial numbers. And we gott to nail those first, and then we go to the non financial considern. Like you might be like, it's too hot or it's too humid, or it's, I don't know if it feels safe, but like first, let's get the numbers Okay, let's try that. So rent in South Carolina. That'd be zero. But you mentioned you want to pay a little I'd want to contribute. Let's pay five hundred a mile. All right? I don't know your family dynamic, but let's just do it. Utilities, what Zero Zero, I guess. All right Insurance, let's keep it, car payment, gas Can you y all get rid of one car We might hit for there I guess. Yeahah. All right, let's drop this to let's just say seven hundred Cervatively, okay? Okay. U Debt payments will'll keep that. groceries at twelve hundred. I think they'd be way less there. Yeah. I know. 'ause then her parents would like be cooking and stuff. Love it. three hundred Still contributing something, but like yeah, way less. Clothes at one hundred Are you cool with that? Find phone, find kids activities, et cetera. childcare No, it' easer. Yeah, we wouldn't need T take it to zero. Well kids activities, let's give them, get they get, you know what? nice. two fifty. I mean, I wouldn't to full rely on them watching the kids so that's. Let's add some. Yeah. Let's You're right. Let's not fair to them. I'm gonna put a thousand. I know It could be more. You're right,. It's fair. We should be consider it. Okay. Subscriptions at fifty miscellaneous at three hundred fifty holy Look at this number It's four thousand six hundred dollars a month. That's crazy. It's striking, right. Let's scroll up You're at sixty two percent Probably I'd change well, I don't know, with that income Yeah, I don't know. We have you making like eighty thousand? I don't even know. what would you do in South Carolina? Id probably work for a school district or something because my mom has connections here. Yeah. T. My pay pretty well. For South Carolina, I would think. Mbe. Like sixty five thousand. Any you think it'd be eighty thousand? Maybe. Could be a pension might not pay eighty off the top, but it could be a pension, which would reduce the amount you need to invest. worth finding out. Part of this CSP process and projection is you actually don't need to know everything. Yeah. It's like be comfortable that we're sketching on the back of a napkin. but like it will if you're at one hundred thirty two percent, it's over. You can't do. There's no fixing that. At sixty two percent You could probably wiggle around. You could ask your parents, hey, can we pay a little bit less right now? or you can pay them more? There's so many different ways at sixty two percent. At one hundred thirty, it's over. I want to point out that in this scenario, you have two thousand eight hundred fifty four dollars The month left over which What would you do with that money if you had it Invest. Yeah, invest and save and save right now. That's what I would I would take a little bit, you know, and spend it maybe F to seven percent, low. and the rest of my take home pay would go to building up a savings and building up investing, which will allow you to notot have to live in South Carolina forever. It will allow you to eventually have enough to be able to move somewhere else. You can take your time finding a job because you're in the comfort of a home. Also, it allow you to eventually get towards that rich life of being able to eat out. You can't do it right now, but you could if you start building up savings and investments What are you taking away? I'm not pushing for any one thing. But I am showing you How to project yeah, the possibilities What is your reaction to this, Tiran? I mean, my initial reaction is obviously I just feel like we've failed, which is really disappointing Yeah, and obviously nothing against my family just U like it's just a real bummer that we're in the situation. So it makes sense and we got to do it. Melissa, what's your reaction to this I'm trying to like actually picture us like living with our parents, and I'm like, what would that do to our marriage? Well like I said, I think they would move out. Yeah, but would they really move out, where would they go That's not realistic. I think they say that that would not happen. And I'm also wondering like how many months would this be? You know, like how short term, long term would it be? If we get to that point where we save enough Where we go next? Like what would we even be saving for? Like if we're not paying a rent then we get used to not paying a rent. You know what I mean? So then it's like, how do we re enter society Um, So there's those are like all the thoughts set. come to my mind. I like these questions A couple of things that occur to me One, I think you raise a really good question of like what what would happen to our marriage and u I think in your scenario, your marriage needs a mission And so I would actually flip it from like, oh, this could be like uncomfortable to like, wow, what a blessing that we have a family that can offer a space cut our rent to almost nothing and help with the kids and most importantly, give us a mission. that mission being, we are going to build the skills of managing our money We have proven unable to do that until now. And right now we're living in LA, which is basically the Olympics of money. LA and New York is where it is incredibly expensive and the world is against you unless you're making a ton of money. We're going to Get our bearings with the blessing of our family to be able to allow us to stay or a super low cost of living city where we make enough, et ccetera. And we're going to learn Month after month, how to save, how to invest how to not spend the way we used to. And once we hit these milestones We could talk about the next step This is how much we need to have in our savings. This is how much we need to have invested. This is how many months we need to have done it consecutively for That's how I would think about it I can't tell you to do it But if we're talking about a reset, which in my opinion is what is needed so you never get back into this situation. You can't reset while still living, you know, next to every freaking LA restaurant and basically doing the same thing that you've been doing just with wiping off the debt You'll be right back into it. Y. It's kind of striking to see the difference between like Vegas and Livving at home.. What do you think? I think if we move to Vegas What money are we going with? And I have no client based You don't even have a job. Well, yeah. So it's like starting from like really scratch. Starting from scratch and maybe even starting in debt ' where's all that moving money gonna to come from Like hopefully you sell the house for a bunch of money, but even that takes a while. So now you're back on the credit card Yep. I don't want that. I don't want one more day of paying on a credit card. Same Tarn, realistically, when do you think that you could start working again? I mean, I'm ready now. I just I just cannot, like I said, I have the one role that I've been I'm on the fourth round. But again, it's like it would be in LA or New York. So. evenven now that's just feeling like like that would probably be pretty hard. Yeah. I think in another place in time and a place that you could get to Just not today. Yeah, yeah. You would have Enough buffer, enough savings, enough healthy habits to be able to go like, okay, LA is or New York. Yeah. But today it's like Really challenging. Yeah. Yeah. What about your kids? If you changed nothing, you kind of kept on this path. What do you think they would notice? Toayate, nothing's really really changed for them. Again, the twelve year old knows because like we're their house up for sale and it's like, why? you know, we're having some of those conversations. Yeah. What about as their parents more and more into depth older and older, less able to recover. I think they would notice their parents getting stressed? Oh yeah yeah Yeah.. And then as they turnurned eighteen and twenty and twenty four and twenty six. What do you think they would take? The same things we took from it Like the same thing that I did. Which was? L that is okay. You'll come out of it. Everybody has debt. Yeah It's fine J just try your best and Things will be okay. Yeah. And then it repeats. Which is what I'm like literally teaching them the opposite of. Oh, you're teaching them that. Like we're teaching like words. T words, of course. Yeah. And how about through actions? No, because we have no money to actually save. so I'm not. I like, you guys save your money, that's great. Yeah. I heard that kids love when parents tell them something but do the opposite. They love that learning style. It works. Okay yeah, it works That's why I mean that having a mission is actually really powerful, like incredibly power more than you may even internalize. The idea of like making a massive change can be scary. no doubt about it. but actually Bring the family along and teaching them like this is something that we have to do. Here's why and at age appropriate level, the twelve year old should know Basically everything. like maybe not exact numbers, but like this is what we did. for the last twenty years, we've been in and out of debt. And it started off because we were making a lot of money and we would spend and that's fine. Like it's nice to be able to do that But we didn't pay attention And actually, we didn't communicate. We don't sit down and talk about money We do it this way, we do it that way. and we've realized That's a mistake. and we got into a lot of debt. And that's why now we are selling our house and we need your help to start over Here's what we are doing. We are reading, I will teeach you to Be be Rich together. We are joining Remet' money cooaching program, whatever. We need you to come with us and we need you to help us Come up with a plan and stick with it. We're gonna hang it on the fridge or we're gonna talk about it once a month But we need you because we need all of us to do it as a family How do you think your kids would react to that? Yeah, I they mayd be excited to do it. Yeah the twelve year old would be. Yeah The other ones probably don't fully understand yet, but we'll get them there. Yeah. Younger ones is obviously different. Not everything has to be a lecture for sure.. But just like kind of like telling the twelve year old like, you know Instead of a dollar, like I made a thousand dollars. And this is what I did with it Kids love hearing their parents' mistakes. They love it. And it actually is a way to bond closer when it comes to money. And the thing is like no parents do this because they don't even have the confidence or competence in their own financial knowledge How are they going to share mistakes They don't even realize the mistakes they are making, but you do So this is why I say marriage having a mission is really powerful. You allall have some work to do You have some numbers to crunch I think it's worth looking into jobs, talking to your mom How much do these jobs pay And getting really curious about what it would look like. Okaykay? I would love it if you could do with an open mind. I actually think both of you are quite adaptable in the way you think. I've seen that today. So if that voice comes up in the back of your head, name it, you know, like stationary Melissa some some name Michelle Michelle, Michelle. Yes. And Michelle like wants you to just stay put and keep doing the same thing. We don't want that. Because we know that no matter what you've got to make a huge change. It has to happen Okay. Tarn, you're looking for a job. I'm going to gift you a copy of my dream job program so you can look for a job. Much of this will be familiar to you because you've worked in top tier jobs. Some of it will be new to you. And I think you can use it to get a high paying job, even now potentially remotely, which would make things quite amazing for the two of you. Yeah. Okay, So we'll send you a copy of that, you can use it. let us know if you have any questions. And then I want you to become decisive Like the house is on the market. You've proven you can be decisive. That's amazing Yeah I modeled out if you make one hundred and fifty K That's still great Anything above that is like gravy like you could fill up a savings account. you could start to simulate getting a steady income, which I think is critical.. You have flexibility with your family. They're so generous in terms of allowing you to pause that loan But if you have the money, you may want to consider paying some of it, if not all of it. Depends on how much you make Any questions on any of that? I think so. I think the big theme is Be decisive, move fast, and it's got to be different That is how I would think about it. Okay, Melissa, what surprised you most about today's conversation Howib they mo in to South Carolina. Seeing the numbers like worked out and the fact that In my mind, like I thought, oh what' the house so I could do this. would all Like work out and might not work out that way. Yeah. It's probably the most surprising? Yeah. seeeeing the numbers for sure. 'cause I think I was with the mindset too, like selling the house will be huge, me getting another job will be huge, and then it's like renting But yeah, it's like we're still to your point, we're just gonna to get end up back in the same place. I think I thought, we won't be paying eight grand a month. We'll be paying,, five. We won't be paying the loan. That's another it feels like a lot of money when you just say it like that Um I think that was probably the most surprising for me is like, oh, wow, yeah, we really can't make this work. That's really awesome. Sometimes just knowing like That doesn't work is actually the most helpful thing at all. You know, like we didn't even include moving fees into this. That was going into my head too. That's a lot. It was like even shipping a car out there. No That's a lot. No they dri. Well we could drive it, but yeah all they is like it needs to be modeled in and it's five, ten fifteen thousand dollars when you add all this stuff deposit, like it's a lot of money What I want And I'm so glad you were surprised by that is the importance of running the numbers. and you'll notice every time I had a choice to make added more money because I wantan to be consonservative. Yeah. I never want to be surprised with an unexpected cost If anything, I'm gonna be surprised by having extra money at the end of the year, but I am the opposite of delusional. I try to be realistic and a little conservative I believe in myself I believe that I can work and get amazing things, land a dream job, start another business, no matter where. I believe that And I'm going to model out that. Maybe it's gonna take me four times as long Okay How do you feel now versus when you walked in here, Tarn? A little more stressed out just because I really didn't think not living in LA wasn't going even be an option. It just felt like I just need to get a job again and like sell the house and like So I feel A little more stressed just in that we have a lot of work to do And we're going to be making some very big different decisions that we haven't like we joked about like going to South Carolina, which and again, we knew of dire straightits, Yeahah, we absolutely I don't think I realize we were like, o, we we are dire straits. very much. Yeah. or like right there.. But also I feel good and like, okay, we have an answer. It feels more clear. The overreliiance on feelings in money is really common And in my opinion is like a major problem. Many people just talk about how they feel about money. and ironically, I'm the one trying to encourage us to lean into our feelings Feelings are real It's not just math, but we always have to start with the numbers Because too often too many of us are only talking about our feelings And that's how you get into tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, even a million dollars of debt and not really understand how So I actually am really happy to hear you say, you're feeling like, wow, maybe a little stressed, but that's okay. I never shy away from stress. We can handle it And wow, a realization, we have some big decisions to make. That's amazing How about you Melissa? How are you feeling now versus when you walked in? Oh Definitely stressed Kind of more confused It's a lot. And they processing. It's a lot.. And they and they they thinking like numbers and processing like the move and like living there. And yeah. hereere's how I would approach it in your situation. It's very difficult to do these numbers in your head And you saw that, right? You talked about like if we sell this and we go to five thousand a month, it just kind of like seem fine. That's because you weren't really doing the numbers. So the way I would approach it, if I'm in your situation and I'm like, whoa, this is a lot. I would say to myself first of all One big takeaway that I've gotten from this and from Ramet is we need to do the numbers much more carefully. We both need to do them independently and then bring them to each other and compare notes. L we need to take this seriously. Number two, I don't have to do this right now. Like right, I trust that when I'm at home and I can look at Zillow and I can plug in some numbers, I will come up with those. but I don't need to do it in my head and actually I don't trust My own math in my head. So numbers need to be done at a computer. The bigger question is, am I willing to make a major change in where we live, how we live and our relationship around money. That the two of you have worked to do on. What is our dynamic controller bystander? How do we change that? Because just fixing the math, even moving to a place where we pay no rent is not going to change the thing until the two of us are partners. What does partnership look like? Are there other episodes of this podcast we should go listen to becausecause we need to recalibrate therapist, et cetera, etera. That is where I think you could spend time as well as the numbers. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you for. Thank you. I don't take any pleasure in showing them that their life is about to change It's not fun, actually. I would rather have somebody who I tweak a couple numbers and help show them they're going to have sixteen million dollars But the fact of the matter is that they are in a major crisis and they need a bit of shaking to realize how bad it really is. This would be bad if it was just the two of them. With five children, it is catastrophic and they need to take action now. One of the things that I feel fortunate about is that When you go to somebody who is a third party, that person can cut right through all of the other issues that may have bogged you down in the weeds and just tell you exactly what is at stake here. And the fact is they've got to move. They cannot stay in the same place They cannot even cut their rent by thirty percent. No, they have to make massive Gargantuan life changes Deep down, they've been counting on selling the house Catch up. this problem thinking, once we get through that, we'll go back to the way we were. You could even see it when I asked them what their rich life is. know They were talking about ordering food. In this future, if they follow my suggestions and carefully run the numbers, that simply will not exist And that's actually an extremely hard transition to make. Can you imagine as a household making, what? three hundred fifty, four hundred fifty thousand dollars a year, and two years later, you're not able to order delivery? I don't think many people can actually understand the enormity, the severity of that change. But that is exactly what I am asking them to do. Now they don't have to do it They can sell their house, pay off a little bit of debt, stay in LA, try to get a better job, try, try, try. And I guarantee you in five years, they will be back in debt. It is a horrible life to go through struggling over and over again. Because when you don't get out of a bad place You start to think that it's not just the world, it's you. You start to be demoralized, You start to basically give up I won't allow that That's not why people come on the show. They want the truth, They want me to tell it to them. They want me to give it to H him compassionately Notice that I didn't rip them apart. It would have been easy. I certainly would have got better views on my YouTube shorts But that's not what the show is. I'm not here to humiliate people for making poor decisions, which they have. I slowed it down. I asked them lots of questions Sometimes when they went down the wrong path, I let them and then I tried to bring them back. I need them to get to the point where they realize buying that pool was a big mistake. Not talking about money as partners was a big mistake. Not cutting their expenses immediately when Tern lost her job was a big mistake. I think they can get there. The fastest way is complete radical changes in the way that they treat money Don't look back, Don't try to bring part of LA with you. That chapter is over. We appreciate it. It's been great. Now we are moving on to a new chapter of our life. And I'm really eager to see what they decide to do. Let's check out their follow ups So after our meeting with Rami, I think the biggest surprise for me were the beliefs that I held from growing up in my childhood into adulthood about finances and money and The biggest surprise was how it's going to be such a big overhaul. for our lives that we need to do in order to be where we w to be financially So much so that I processed it really hard that night and really wasn't expecting that. So we are worountter CSP. We are figuring out Are we moving out of California Are we going to stay depending on what job she might get But short term. is Obviously sell the house and move in with family for three or four months to get our bearings and figure out. What the next big step is, whether it's moving out of state or staying in California. So I think the biggest takeaway for me after meeting with for me was just how severe our situation is. I knew it was bad, but hearing that We need a full reset of thinking of way of living. That was probably the biggest surprise for me. I don't think I realized just how severe it was. We have to make huge life changes right now. If we want things to get better, if we want to be able to, you know, have financial freedom Enjoy traveling, eating out F things, not having debt, really big changes need to happen for us. So that's a biggest takeaway is that we just you know, no more talking about it, no more, let's sit down and put down a budget together and stick to it and then forget about it two days later, like we actually need to make huge life changes to make this work. As far as what changes we're actually making now, it's selling the house, couples therapy, really evaluating other areas where we could live, whether it be with my family in South Carolina, whether it be with this this family here in Torrrenance temporarily. you know we're figuring that all out to see what we can do. So those are our first immediate steps. but there's going to be a lot of other bigger steps. you know, obviously that are going to come through with couples counseling and figuring out, you know, what changes we need to make and that sort of thing Hi, so it's been six weeks since we sat down with Ramet and there's been some significant changes. Our house is on the market to sell That'll take a huge chunk of money from our fixed costs so we can rent something way lower to try to keep within that sixty percent range We have gone over all of our numbers in depth and cut everything we needed to. We brought a credit card we transferred to zero percent, so we're not paying Ajust minimum payment on that, we're able to put more towards debt in general One of the bigger things is that we start a couples therapy, which I think has helped us get through some tough time since meeting with Remy because We really went through big mindset shift after and it both kind of rattled us both. and I think Now being in therapy, it's really helped us get a grasp of financially where we are and our mindset.