Rapid Fire Would You Rather

H weirdos, this episode is brought to you by Ashley. Your home should show off who you are. As the largest furniture store brand in North America, Ashley can help you create a comfortable, functional, and stylish home that you can feel proud of, and in a price range that works for you. With Ashley's lifestyle driven designs, you don't have to choose between practical and being stylish. Visit your local Ashley store or head to Ashley. com to find your style Bothers. We're gonna to get into the actual intro, but first, M Gret has something to tell you. I do have something to tell you today We have somebody very special on the pod In the pod lab, the second pod lab. Ash Kell's Pod l Lab. Ash Kell's Pod. Welcome the Podab. It's still a little bit under construction, but we're working pretty on We have Wha Thanks, Mikey. That was badass. We have Paul Trembbleay on the pod today Paul is the critically acclaimed New York Times bestselling author of Head Full of Ghosts, The Paul Bearerars Club, Cabin at the End of the World. And actually that one has already been adapted to a film. It's Nock at the Cabin, I believe it's called. So go check that out and Headfulull of Ghost is going be adapted to a movie. So we'll wait for that hisis newest release right here, Dead but dreaming of Electric Sheep, which is an amazing title. It's coming out june thirtieth, that's wherever you can find books. We have actually already recorded with Paul and had a fucking fantastic time. He's so nice. He's phenomenal. His books are phenomenal, and I urge you to go check them out. and we're really excited for you to see our conversation with him. Woo Before we get into the episode, we do just have to thank our sponsor one more time. Ashley is such an icon. I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about this gorgeous furniture that we are sitting on and our feet are upon and our drank are upon. We got this is the Revon like sofa that we're sitting on It's comfy. It's really comfy. It's chic. I love the color and it's washable, which is nice. I got the love seat over there. And then we have the Mee coffee table, which I'm actually ordering another one to put in my living room downstairs becausecause I love it so much. I like to say really quick that the Schwepz on there was a mistake mistake Instacart, I'm not talking to you right now And finally, these are the core stone tables, the end tables. What I love about these is that I feel like I'm like a QVC girl. Yeah. I love that you can dress them up like the shelves. you can kind of just like all your accoutres, all your zior, your your trinkets, youraharies Yara movies. Yahara movies, your a wala. your game that you crafted with your sister and hunt a killer. You can just put anything on the end table. So true. Thank you to Ashley for sponsoring today's episode and for sending us this really cool furniture ' it's sick. And without further ado, let's get into it. Yah. Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. I'm Elena And I'm Grady Hendrix. No way. I'm Paul He said, Paul, you can be whoever you want fun. and he chose Grady Hendriickxs. Oh yes. This is morbid very special Morbid. We have than mate, we already introduced him, but I'm going gonna introduce him again. Yeah This is Paul Trembleay. If you don't know him, go figure it out because there's a body of work that you need to get into right now He's an amazing writer and you're missing out if you haven't read his books. So get to it. And also there's several adaptations that have been happening lately Yeah. than you so much. You know, The most recent would be Efulull of ghost rarapped filming u in the Dublin area. Which is where actually Victorian psycho was filmed in Ireland as well. Oh, that's cool. Virginia and I talked a little bit about. But anyway, yeah raraps and probably out a year from now Yeah, super excited. I'm really excited for that. That's actually one of my favorite of your books. Thank you so much. Very excited about it.' going be Sary movie. They didn't pull any punches. So the directors was weird. we were talking my wife and I on the way over. The director is our Austrian niece and nephew. L like it's kind of fun Oh my go, that's so cool that is funny. Like L or aunt I should say aunt, nephew. Yeah. Yeah R. Cool. That's so fun.. I love that Well we mentioned Victorian Psycho. Yes. That's what we're going to be talking about today. Yes. This was actually your pick which we are very excited. And I had heard about this book. It's by Virginia Fito, excuse me And I've heard about this book. everywhere. Like I'm on TikTok, like bookTalk loves it. I heard about it. So many people have told me you have to read this book. And it's been on my TBR forever. So when you mentioned it, I was like, well pererfect time I ate this book up. in one day, like one last set Literally just ate it up. It's so easy to read. It is such a good book I think it's so unique. I feel like I've never read anything quite like this. You know. Truly. Yeah. And we're gonna get really into it in a minute, but first, I want to talk to you about you. Okay? 'causeuse you guys gotta know who Paul is. I'm not Victorian. You're not Victorian. N you psycho to be determined. we'll figure it out through this So we were actually just talking about this. Congratson finally becoming a full time Witer. Thank you. That's incredible. I appreciate that. Yeah, it's a little weird, a little daunting Yeah I've been a high school math teacher for thirty years and people usually react more in horror to that than they do the horror writing. I was going to say that's horror to me Yeah, that' No, I totally get it Um, you know, at a small school local to here, And they were always super supportive and let me be the weirdo or writing agnostic math teacher in a Catholic boy school. Oh hell. that's about. That's awesome. That's a story in and of itself that you need to write a. really veryy thankful. Never you know, if I missed a day or two to go like a festival or something, they were great. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. That's so rare. Yeah I can see why you stayed there for so long. No, it was like I mean, my artistic writerly safety net. Yeah. I similar to you like you were just telling me how you kept your job for a long time. I mean, it was it was just nice to know, hey, I had this job that sometometimes paid our shitty health insurance. And then, you know, I could write a book and if it was weird, that's okay. If I needed to say no, I could because I didn't have to like do what the publisher said or what people expected. I know And I think that actually makes it better. I feel like you probably were a little able to be more free and creative with that when you have that safety net because when it's all on you, it's like like this has to work. It has to be what everyone likes. No, one hundred percent. Yeah. Always admire friends who make a go of it you know, full time, and that's how they've been supporting their family for years. I mean, that's a pressure to that ure Well my kids are older now, so they're on their own. So what chs. Yeah Well, you're definitely like the most successful like part time writer I've ever seen like that's crazy. When I saw, I think I saw you post about it and I was like Wait a minute. was like he's not full time doing this what the hell But you seem to have come to the full time side of writing at the right time because I feel like Horror is having kind of like a cultural renaaissance right now. L we even like with movies and stuff like backrooms, weapons, sinners Frankenstein obsession. Why do you think that's happening right now Yeah, I mean, that's hard to answer. I'm not sure. I mean, I think some of it was funny. Let me back up so Eethylogos was the book that sort of made me like that broke out Um, And we were when we were trying to sell that in early twenty fourteen A lot of publishers were like, Ah, but it's horror. and like it was we eventually did get a published, which was amazing, but It's not that long ago, like now like eleven, twelve years later's like that people are like, oh Publishers a weekly reports and like, oh the sale like the Publisher acquisition of Hornw this is up twenty five percent from last year, which is up twenty five percent from the year before, and it's just you know, the worst case scenario person in me that, you know, powers my books is like, o no, it's going to be a bubble that pops. Yep. like there That's going to happen they' rocking. But no, I mean, I think it's a healthy place We're finally getting to see It's not just know authors who look u you know, wh white straight authors who look like me and grrady and you know, we're getting to see way more own voices and you know, to me, that's like one of the most exciting parts about what we're seeing both in film and and in publishing. Oh yeah, I agree. I think it's like different point of views coming into it. I think finally people are being open to that, which is nice And I love it. I love seeing that. And I love seeing them like win awards. I love all of like seeing this happen. I'm like, time No I mean the other part of is, I think, you know, well, I mean, I'll talk about Gen X a little bit. like I mean, so many of us grew up reading Stephen King and watching the movies and then You know, at the later half of the previous decade, you know, so many of us were now publishing books like you know, the children, if not of Stephen King, but of of that time period and. Yeah, like I said, there's less of a there's still a stigma with horror which I hope never leaves, frankly. I mean, I always want horror horror should be poking and prodding at uncomfortable things and on the boundaries. So I hope it doesn't lose that Um Yeah. So I think honestly get out has a lot to do with it. Like when that like that was the first time. Yeah broader culture, especially academia and Mainstreamer viewers were like, o, there were I remember liter artles N York Times like, do we need to take horror seriously? because of that movie? They were like we did change the landscape a little. That movie is flawless. I love the flawless. I love that movie. So good. Now, do you remember the exact moment? that you realized that you wanted to write horror Jeez, no. No it's hard to explain how I got there. I mean, I'm a lifelong scaredity cat for one. so I've always had like a love, terrified relationship with heart. That's how I feel. Yeah Yeah. still like if I'm alone in the house and'm not above sleeping with like a desk lamp on. ye. same O noise machines. still go up the basement steps too quick just 'cause I'm ridiculous Um, But I mean, I wasn't even like a huge reader as a kid. Like I was just sort of like a nerdy math person, you know, loves Celfics you know here And it wasn't until college where I met my wife Lisa. She boughtght me right after I graduated Tw things happened My last and I hope this isn't boring. you can cut it. I had to take our English requirement. I was in a freshman English class, second semester sunior. It blew my mind. I had like the stereotype experience. The teacher was a big punk music fan and I was two, so we connected, but anyway One of the stories I read in that class was Joyce Carllz is whereere are you going? Where have you been I remember reading it and I actually said aloud. I I didn't know people wrote things like this. I love that. And shortly after that, Lisa bought me the stand after graduation and I hailed that I went off to grad school for two years and struggled by the skin of my teeth to get aas's degree That's when I was reading everything Stephen King wrote. and ye from Dance Macabre, I branched out to like Peter Straub and Clyd Barker and Shirley Jackson and then Two years after that, I got first teaching job and I had the weirditch to try writing a story. inexplicable. Like why would I try writing a story? Like I'm a math teacher I love that though. Yeah. That's so cool. That's how I felt too. When I first started writing like my first book, I was like I don't know how to write a story. Like I was like, I can't write a whole book. Like what am I doing? I just imagine everybody feels that way when I feel like every has to feel that way, you know in the beginning being like, I'm gonna get to the end of this. L Yeah. This is going be something someone reads. Right. Like I'm terrible at writing advice, so I don't give it. The only thing I tell, especially to younger people, it's like, hey, you know, hopefully you come to this realization a lot earlier than I did, but hopefully You know, you come to the realization that it's okay to like things. It's getting harder and harder to do that with you know Obviously with just, you know, social media life and everyone hates everything. You know, it's okay to like things. That means it's okay to be passionate about it and maybe you want to try it yourself. And I mean, that's such an important has to be your first step. Yes. I'm so I'm so glad you said that because I'm constantly trying to tell my kids that. I'm like, I want to tell you now when you're young, like you can be passionately excited about things and not feel weird about it. Like Don't make people feel like make you feel like you can't be all in on something and want to do it or want to experience it or want to learn everything you can about it. Like I feel like we have G to a place now where like Everyone wants to be the same And everything's cringe and it's like's so cringey that you're into. It's like stop. I hate that. Unless you like Grady Hendrick's books, then we should really That's cringe I love Grady. Grady Grady's a friend. I just like making fun. We love Grady. We had him on and we had the most fun with him. He's great. It was a fun episode. He is so much fun, He's so funny. He was really fun with the Would you rather 're ready now. Y. And actually like this kind of leads into what I wanted to talk about next. so Speaking of like a love of writing and getting passionate about things AI Yeah I have to rant with you about it because I think we feel the exact same way about. Oh yeah. it's upsetting me so much that because like books like this, like Victorian Psycho going to happen with AI. And it's making me crazy that it's become a thing. And I feel like you need to go through The whole like being inspired to write something, coming up with the idea, like working through it, at some point like reading your own writing and being like, oh my Godd, I'm a genius and then the next day reading it and being like, I'm a hack and I should never do this. And then fighting through that feeling and coming out on the other side. You need to have that full experience. And I feel like all of a sudden we're going to get these books that don't have that behind it. And I feel like you need that injected into the book for it to be Yeah, I had no no interest in reading it. I mean the whole idea to me is reading something or watching a movie or any other piece of art What the connection is, o, this person felt like I did. Yeah It feels like I do too. Right. And there will never be any of that No. you know with AI. never mind that they steal O books exactly. you know, give, you know,, and I was a part of the first lawsuit suing Op AI on behalf of writers. I love for two years myself, other H leading the way Christopher Golden, another h writer Yeah in Richard Cadre and also weirdly, well not weirdly, but like All right but Sarah Silverman G grew the first four and spent two years as a part of it. U they come there's so many lawsuits that consolid it all to one so they work I didn't continue because they alsoso chose different lawyers was weird, but yeah. no, I mean Yeah, I'm sorry if it makes people uncomfortable, but like you're not a writer or a visual artist if you're using it. You'reab to use like We don't have a union, but I'm going to use union terms if you're a scab. Exactly It It's stolen work. Yeah.. It just at the end of the day. makes me crazy. And there's just no humanity behind it. Like A, I can't come up I mean, you see you can always see it like metaphors and stuff that you'll see written by I. You're like that doesn't even make sense. Like you because you don't have the capacity as a computer to compare two things Like you just don't, like it doesn't make any sense. It' I mean, in one way, it's like it's helped crystallize like why I'm, you know, still passionate about reading and you know watching movies and you know, and viewing art, but You know, it's the connection components. It's like don' why do we have to defend this or Yeah or explain why that this is important? Exactly. Yeah And it makes it so you have a book coming out on june thirtieth and it's Dead but Dreaming of Electric Sheep. I love that title for It' such a good title. such a good title. And it has some like AI components and it like in the story. It's about that. the plot seems so interesting to me. Can you tell us a little bit about it? Yeah, sure. I'm bad at the quick pitch. I'm terrible at it, so don't worry it's like a thing across the board Yeah. Now we have that out of the way. Yeah. So you know, the main conceit is that there's someone who's like my age and buildill working for Well, not Google because I didn't want to get sued. I call them Dilian a giant tech company in the Silicon Valley. Okay. He's working on campus in the mail room and he Doesn't drop dead but he has a massive stroke Uh where, you know, he can breathe and his heart's beating, but he's not, you know, there's no consciousness. He's in a vegetative state, so they say He signed his body directly to over to the company though, prior to this happening. as one does. as one does They implant AI and nano s into his brain so someone can remote control them like they're playing a video game. So of that happen. So most of that happens off off page the semi estranged twenty four year old daughter of the CFO, she was an ex professional gamer is hired to basically weekend of Bernies him across the country. Oh my God. So I'm hopeful, like I hope that a big chunk of this book, maybe the first two thirds of her chapters, Julia's chapters It was definitely satire and hopefully very funny. Yeah E though it's, you know, ultimately a serious thing, the So the book is split between her chapters and chapters are titled You, which is from the point of view of the man with a tech in his head. So he He is still conscious because of what they put in his head, he's going through like a phantasmic oracle hellscape And then the two sort the two narratives sort of link up at the end and everyone's happy and hugs and Oh cool. I love the D. That's going to be good. I'm really Yeah. I love a dual pool POV. Lve that. That's really cool. And to think about just like being unconscious but conscious at the same time, that's wild. That's honestly my definitely very horrific. Yeah very black. And the control aspect of it is my Literal worse than I. I am the biggest control freak in the world. The idea of somebody controlling me when I can't. Right Yeah One of my onene of my fears writing the book is even though the premise seems absurd. I was like, man, I got to get this done before It actually happened. was two years ago, there was a story where Some company has brains and jars, like some companies do, apparently. like futuramaight. And they were testing either both pain medication or addiction to drugs, testing the brains And one of the spokesperson said, Ohh, you know, the wiring is almost thinaking out of what it would take for them to be conscious. Almost Yeah. I hate. You're like me writing that. you get into your editor, you're like, please hurry. Oh my go. Oh, I hate that. I want to go back to something that you said earlier because I related to that so much I'm such a horror fan, but I'm also such a fraidy cat and you said the same thing. I wonder, do you have any fears that you've never explored in your writing that you would eventually want to someday Um That's a great question. No, I don't think no one's ever asked it in that way. Look at that I mean there's some fears that I won't write about just because it's too scary for me. And being just a child teen of the eighties, like nuclear war stuff really, anything that brushes up against that is too much for me. That's how I feel. I don't write about it.void So I won't watch Ofenheimer. Yep. I'm sure it's a good movie. End of the worldorld for me is like too real. Yeah I don't know. I mean I use so much of my own life, much of the chagin in my family, in my books You know, it's hard to say what's coming next. and I wish I was someone who had like a buullpin of ideas and for novels, I just go from a novel and then I'm like, oh, no, what am I gonna to do now? Oh then just try to start and just try to start from scratch and hopefully there's some inspiration. So All right. That I don know I can't say like, oh I definitely want tona try this or that That's a kind of know I'm just totally focused on the thing I'm working on. Yeah. That's cool. You got to see it through. Yeah. I get that weirdest notes in my note app of like ideas, but they're like that Yeah. They're like sometimes I'll look at them and I'm like I don't know what I meant with this. L I will never go back to that. You also have the weirdest dreams that I feel like I do. like nightmares, I should say. I feel like so many of your ideas come from a little blip in your dream. Y, or my kids Weirdly that their kids are scared where like they'll tell me a little bit of a like nightmare or something that they're scared of And I'm like, can I use that? Like, is that cool if I put that in? Oh you even ask them permission? Yeah, I'm like is it I know. I should just take I'm like, I made youuice. poren My poor children. Yeah done taking things without permission. includcluding a headful of ghost. I scarred wife Lisa with it because young Mary, the eight year old character was definitely our daughter Emma when was like years old. it was her personality That's so cool. I mean, hey, you have to write what you know, right?. Yeah. Yeah. I think my youngest had An imaginary friend. Well, Skeltome was one, but he's not going to be a in a book. The mister. But The mister and she named him the mister which actually once told us he'll always find you. Yeah. So like she literally that on a cover. She said, Don't worry the mister will always find you. I think it was because They were playing hide and seek her and my husband. and they were like hiding under a blanket and he was like, whoo are we hiding from? Like who's hiding? And she was like, the mister. And he was like, I'm sorry, what? And she was like Don't worry, he'll always find us. And he was like I hate this What isine. That's a baroque title. The Mister will always find you.. The Mister will always find you. I like it. Yeah Mine. Going back to scary memories or anything like that, do you know or can you think of the first story that ever scared you so badly that it's still with you to this day Maybe you read it or you heard it. Oh yeah. So I mean, for me, it was all movies. I mean, I think I'm trying to think age wise there was, I mean In this when I say this area I don't want to give away where you guys live. in the New England area.. I was I'm old enough that there was a program called Creature Double Feature played This was like late seventies, early eighties. Okay On Saturdday, so they show two movies. The first movie was always like Godzilla or Gama, a Kaiju movie. And that's what drew me in. Yeah. The second movie was a horror movie, like a hammer horrorvie or bllack and white. L this. You know, some of the like just dumbest horror movies that get eventually were on Mystery Science Theater. Right. Oh hell yeah. Those gave me nightmares. I had an attack of the Killer Shrew Nightmares E still remember. It's such a bad movie. I had nightmares from the movie Alien before seeing it, because I was listening to my parents aunt talk about how scary the movie was. Oh my God. happened to me when I was little all the time. In fact, I remember you were there at one of my uncle's houses and all of you guys were talking about it And I just heard like the tail end and like little bits of your conversation and I was afraid of whatever it was I didn't even know what it was, but I was mind scared of it for like months. Oh yeah. yeah byy far jaws gave me the most nightmares by far Jws were such a foray into horror, isn't that? Yeah. they started at my high school, which is was weird when I was like fifth grade, they were showing summer like the high school because they had like an auditorium. Okay. And my dad took me and he he pitched the movie to me this way. He's like, Oh, there's scene in this movie that captures of what it feels like to catch a fish. That moment, right when you catch on the hook. You're like awesome, You to watch that. I mean yeah, that scene where Quint catch, you know hooks something there. That's. you could have told me some other things about that movie. But you left out some a little different feelings Yeah. So like I it's one of my favorite movies. I've seen it fifty times since, but I still cover my eyes when Quinince gets Sorry for the spoiler, but job. When Quins get when he gets bititt in half I broke my little ten year old brain. And I'm graduating. I had ten years of shark nightmares after that movie. Oh, I believe it. So I've seen the movie. I've watched with my kids and we'll ceremoniously put the pillow over our faces the. I love it. I've seen way more Goryer stuff. I'm just like, I wouldn' justfraid that my brain will return to the ten year old brain. It probably would. It could. It's a core memory, you know Your kids want to see jaws so badly. So now we're going to rethink that one. And they're my oldest are ten, they're ten year old twins and they want to see it so badly. So I've been like easing them in by being like, here's a picture of Bruce the Shark as a robot. Like it's not real. I'm trying to be like, here's the behind the scenes of all of it So hopefully it'll help, but I'm like, I don't know. If have a pool or friends with the pool and put the TV and be on floats while you're watching the mov. That would be so good. It would be door too. We do need to do that. You know, they're so brave. like they're so brave at first about horror things. So like I can do this. Let's do it. and then the nighttide to be brave during the day for sure. And we regret it immediately. That's how I am still Yeah, very brave during the day. and then at night I'm like, this is so scary. And I don't want to ruin horror for them. so I'm trying to like ease it in. I'm like I don't want to Give you trauma right off the bat. Yeah So Gremls? have seen have they seen Gremllands? They haven't yet. We were just calling them gre. I was gonna to say I refer to them as gremuls a lot because at nighttime they always have like an assortment of ailments They're always eating be and eating out I'm like literally I can't feed you after midnight C can you wet? Take it w. Yeah straight up grab.re precarious I do wonder, going back to your writing process, what's the strangest place that you've gotten inspiration from a book that you can think of Um there was a moment of like panic When I was on a train in England. Okay I was doing an amazing book tour over there cabinet at the end of the world. Okay. And I knew the next book was due in less than a year at this point. And the novel I was imagining doing was going to take It was going to be a big one and it was going to take way longer than a year. I'm like, oh now what am I going to do? I got to come up with an idea And I had this weird what if for a zombie that I don't want to say necessarily because it's spoils the book. Okay U so that was sort of like forced And we can do inspiration Other ways, it's just fun like where it comes from. you never know like My book horror movie came from friend an amazing writer, sorry to name drop. I've al mentionedradyy but Stephven Graham Jones, you know, amazing guy.ight amazing. Hey, you should watch this YouTube. My friend Walter Cho is just a you know Great critic and He hosts these matinees and then talks about the movie. So basically it was an hour of Walter and writer musician to John Darnill talking about Texas Chainsaw massacre, which was a movie That I didn't I wasn't brave enough to watch until I was in my late thirties. I love that. But since I've seen it, I love that movie and That's a good one. Their discussion sent me into a rabbit hole that became horror movie. So I don't know, it's just you never know where it comes from and you try to be open to it. Yeah, nice. I'm actually I am in the middle of reading horror movie right now. And I love it. So there's that. That's on my TBR list. You're coming up close. I'm gonna app it. Once you read it, I'll just steal it from you. Yeah You're all handed over U So and going with the writing process still, do you have do you start with an ending in mind or do you just kind of like toorture it out of your characters and see what happens. And I camet for that I I typically have some notion of the ending. sometometimes it's really foggy, sometometimes it can be this is the last line. I have to earn my way there. like So I'd say most of the time it's obviously I have a beginning in a vague or sometimes the end in mind and it's like the hard part is I it's pretty ne in the middle there Yeah. Yeah Yeah. And you're kind of, so you're like kind of the king of ambiguous endndings, I feel like that You have to figure it out. you get to decide And Yeah actually I've done that a few times. That's fine. I don't know if you've heard that or not. But do you always know the true ending O are you kind of feeling that way too. It depends on the I guess it depends on the story. So a headful of ghosts, in my mind, there's no true ending And I think, you know, when I wrote it, I had to purposeully divorce myself from thinking there was a true ending. I thought then a true like the true ending would have leaked through and I didn't want that. like I want a headfulull of ghost if it was scary at all to be scary precisely because we didn't know and have that You know, to me, that's just the scary part of life. feel like you know like Yeah we have beliefs and Ultimately, we just don't know. And I anytime you use ambiguity, It helps trigger that a little bit, which, you know helps maybe scare people if it works that way. I like You know the c at the end of the world, I way underestimated how many people were going to be upset not knowing if the world was ending or not Because to me the story became not about that. It became about the two the two the husbands and more they were going to decide. to me, that was the story It's something like the Pall Bears Club You know, it plays with ambiguity, but yeah, I'm pretty sure she's a vampire. If you don't want to believe she is the fine too. Yeah, I would not, you know I would definitely wouldn't want to like spoil someone's reading experience but She's a vampire. I mean that's fun. Who would have want I think so too. Yeah. I like that. think I think it's more fun. way because it lets somebody it like stays with someone longer when they have to sit there and think about it and wonder different I hope it's never I never want it to be like a cheap like twist You know twist are fun, but like I don't want that to be just like a gimmick. Like Yeahah, you don't want to be like you know, even if you know anyone out there has read it and doesn't like it, just I don't know if this assures you or makes you feel better. But like I thought hard about' like I'm going do this. I know I'm asking a lot to read three hundred pages and then maybe having open ended stuff. I know, I try to write books that I want to read and like I like I like having sort of the questions linger afterwards. Yeah, I like that. too. I think it's scarier, like you said. One last question for you about your writing process or just writing in general. If readers can take one thing away from your work beyond the scares, what would you want that to be? Uh, what And we're ending on a heavy question. That's hard Especially with the novels, what I typically lean towards doing is I'm trying to make it feel like as realistic as possible. This is what it would feel like if There was u a maybe demon possession or this would this is what it would look like. Okay. And maybe just hopefully peopleople take away like the characters. like I can really only think of Prior to the novel, it's coming out like one mustache twisting villain in all my priorate books in cabin you know, there thiss one character might be villain, but everyone else I want people to againgain, some of the horror I think, is these people are doing terrible things I write them in such a way, hopefully that you still understand why they did it and maybe recognize like, oh, if not, but for other circumstances in my own life and the luck that I've had and the privilege maybe that would be me to, you know, that's a scary sort of realization. Yeah yeah, I mean You know, it depends on the story. I mean these are just the things that I write. Like in the book that's coming out, you know, the AI in the book is definitely not to be ignized in any way. All right guys, we're taking a quick break so that we can talk about one of our most favorite sponsors, Ashley. I am obsessed with Ashley, and they were nice enough to send us this gorgeous furniture that you see me sitting a little mom mom and we got a coffee table, we got this gorgeous sofa. We got the love seat over here. We'll show you all these different pieces. It was so important to me when I was updating my studio that I really wanted like a timeless, almost kind of like vintage feel. I love really rich dark woods, which you can see. is stone end table. One, I love again, the rich dark wood, but also the fact that you can kind of dress up the bottom shelves or like the little shelves right there with your decor style. This is the Revon Lake sofa and the matching love seat over there. One, I love that it goes really well with what we have already for morbid decor and two, I just feel like the col fits so well with the paint color and the overall vibe that we have in here. So thank you so much to Ashley. We are obsessed with this furniture. Your home or your pod lab should show off who you are. Ashley has styles that balance timeless appeal and modern trends to bring your personal look home. Ashley is dependable with a modern feel, offering well crafted, as you can see affordable pieces built to stand up to real life and with great looks that are made to last. Plus, Ashley provides fast, reliable white Clove delivery right to your room of choice Visit your local Ashley store or head toashhley. com to find your style All right, so let's talk about your book club pick, Victorian Psycho. Excellent Excellent pick. topop. a good pick. This book is little, but she is fierce. She to quote. Who is that? is that Shakespeare Sure, Mighty She So let's talk about moments that made us cringe throughout the book because I cringed throughout this entire thing. It was a lot of cringe. Yeah. I tabbed the hell out of this book. I could not stop. Also can I just say like I love Winnifred. She's awful, but she's hilarious. And I was like rooting for her in a weird way. You know Yeah. I gott kill that family. No L I was laughing and gasping. Yeah. less cringey. like I couldn't Yeah, so we're gonna get spoilery. This is good Yeah You're to get spoilery. It'll be in those notes too, so you guys know. Yeah. We're gonna be talking No for sure. I mean I was s I was lucky to be sent like an arc and I happen to have the time to you know, to to be able to read it And I was a little nervous going into it only because like Anytime like and I know this from experience like using a title that references like a famous work. Yeahes, you know, like we'll see. know like, which I've read and actually, you know You know, it wass pretty awful. You know, I really do like that book. Yeah. So I was like, all right, we'll see what happens. But man She had me at the end of the first chapter. H Mrs. Abe, Im use is a woman who has never held a penis.. It was just that's She was describing, you know, like, I'm so bad remembering the character names, but describing the woman who was in charge of like the house and everything It's just like you were not expecting that line. There were so many lines that you were just not expecting, it was just said so plainly. That's what I loved. Yeah. She was just so funny. And like the littleest sides that she would make to the reader were so funny.. I felt like we were like friends throughout the reading process. 'use she would say something like like dear reader, something I was like, a a girl. I was like, we're in this together. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. And I love that she had like it was like the littleest sides that you didn't see coming where she was like I teach them history and arithmetic and what corpses smell like in French. And I was like, wait, what? back up. like that's part of it And they're just sprinkled everywhere in this book. They love. She surprised me She did. Yeah Also, like with the like cringy moments I felt like there was so many genuinely hilarious moments that I felt guilty laughing at at times. Yes. Like there was a point when she's This is awful. but with like original baby when she's like original baby and original baby me baby was killing me the entire time And when she says, I spit out the blood and see as so often happens when one slits an infant's carotid artery that the baby is dead. I was like, why is that funny at and all? ike I was so nervous going into it because one of my friends read this before me and she was like, just so you know there's like a hid death. And like was like those babies. And I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna like that. And then she's like, you know, as so often happens when you kill a baby and I was like why is that hilarious? No, I don't know how that is. I knew nothing going in, that was so shocking. That was at a gasp. Yeah And again, laugh despite yourself. Yeah. like I shouldn't be laughing at this, but this is. It's one of the magic tricks of Winnie is and, you know, Virginia is manipulating the reader. Yeah ye like you know, to get you to be somewhat on her side. And I think people Based on what I see online have like false memories of this book because they want to root for her and they asse, o, no, she's only killing people L yeah, it's just kind of patriarchy and And she's killing like, you know, the rich people. she's kind of killing everybody kill babies Likebody use Nobody is spared. No no. opportunous killer. whichich I really admired about her approach because it could have been like I mean, it makes us feel good, but I could been like ye, like superhero likeally kills the bad people Like I don't know, I only get so much mileage out of some of those stories because it doesn't feel like real life.. Like when I read happy notot all happy endings, but like when I read stuff like that, like I actually feel worse because it wass like, oh, that made me feel good but That's not way's not real ye. And even though as wild and fantastical in some ways that this book is, it just feels like, oh She just bl for it. Yeah. Yeah. I really did. Yeah, because she says like the dead babies in the boxes that she sent to the nuns With like the sorry, hereere's another one note. I was like, I'm sorry what? Sorry, here's one more. And they kind of like touch on that earlier. I think when she's sitting down with them and she's like about to eat and kind of interview with them they're like, oh, that's so awful that's happening. And in the back of your mind, you're like, is that her doing? What you doing? And then she's like, canan' confirm. Yeah, C can' confirm. J just with the sorry, here's another one. was like And And just like breaking out of sort of the Victorian speak Yeah a little bit too. Yeah. Yeah There was a few times she did that for sure. And it worked so well. And I think just like at one point she says, Reader, she doth make a fine point about Priscilla. And I was like, she does. She really does. I'm with you on this. I know. When she found the tooth in her mouth that wasn't hers, and then it just never was explained again. Whse tooth was that? Whose molar was in her mouth? And like did that happen? there were so many things that happened that I was like, did that happen Yeah I think when she's really starting to unravel, she walks by one of the rooms and there's a bunch of like plague doctors. and you're like, they're not there. It's Christmas. like what? But they're all just like they just ths her out of there. Yeah. Or when original baby just talks to her out of nowhere. That's how original Baby got got. Yeah, I started talking. I love that. Yeah on my second read, you know to prepare for this, becauseuse I wrote read it two and a half years ago at this point because I got the early early copy. Yeah, I was like, oh Maybe this is a little bit more wayay more ambiguous than I thought evenven like because it's written in present tense and there's somet times where I forget the end of one chapter is like You know, it's not like will they survive the night? and then she says they don't or it breaks from Pent tenent you're wondering about the state of these people in the house her saying now the to like now. rightight. Yeah. So I mean herer as a storyteller is part of it, it could just be explained away as it's a choice and how she's telling it because By the end, you know, when she's on the gallows, sort of explaining things likeike it's made me like, how am I how am I learning the story? Like how how are we hearing this And she even like says, you know, sometimes I'm not right in the head Yeah not in those words exactly, but Yeah. she's truthful. She is. Which I loved because that I was like, oh, this is a book that I could read multiple times and still, you know it still still even though like I won't have the shock of the baby because had replaced with some poor farmer's baby that she just plucks from just runs stuff g Yeah Who's gonna have a different nose later on. Yeah to that There's still so many other pleasures to get from this when you're Oh ye. Yeah. And I like that she foreshadows the gallows a couple of times for you where you're like I'm sorry, what?ike, you're just like okay, you're gonna get caught after this. Like this is at the end I loved that.. That was really cool. Yeah U Do you think Winifred, do you think of her as a psychopath, a villain, or the most honest person in the room O all of the above. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I gott to be all three, I guess. I mean, that's what I think. Do that to a baby. Yeah, I feel I feel that's Yeah. That's it the baby line But you know, the rest of the people in the house are Awful Proably as bad as she or as bad as she is in different ways.. I think so. I don think so, for sure. Yeah. Mrses Pounds. I like misses. Pounds. I was ready. From the jump too. Yeahah And the green dress you gave her that was probably poison. L I missed that in the first read somehow. Oh yeah On the second read, there was more time spent with that. you know that could be messing with your brain and Oh yeah, because they used to make those, we looked it up. They used to make those dresses out of like arsenic. so like Wear them a few times and then start ding deathaces. Literally damn. They put it in wallpaper too you. Like any vibrant green thing back in the day was probably led with arsenic Wild What was the first scene that made you realize this book was going to be feral? Was it the one that you already read? I think it was probably yeah. ye Yeah It wasn't a lot about. when she's I think it was like the first chapter at the end when she says in three months, everyone in this house will be dead. Yp, I was like I took notes, a couple of notes, and that was the first thing I wrote down. I was like, oh, okay. Well was the first one I tabbed. I was like, damn. And she I think she starts it off by being like,ah, it's gonna to be like really cold and it's going to get colder and then everyone's gonna die. Yeah, That's crazy. Okay, wow. All right I'm into it. ye. And again, I feel like we just were all I was rooting for her pretty early on. And which I was shocked by because At first when I read that, I was like, oh no, like she's going to be Is she gonna to be irredeemable? When she's gonna kill like a whole family. And she is irredeemable? That's the weird thing.' like she's completely irreddeemable. Why did I like her? I was like, that is so hard to write a character that way Yeah and have it work. Yeah, it's impressive. Yeah It's ye like the voice is just so and inviting And like in And she's letting you in on it. So obly that sort of like gets you over to her side She is, you know These people are pretty terrible, right? Like don't you think except, you know, they're the who aren't so terrible, who are also getting it. It's true. equal opportunity. Now the scene in the book also, like you werere thinking the Ferreal scene What comes to mind to me is the The decayed crow putting Oh my God, when she was away at school. those kids, Oh my go. Clergy daughter school or whatever. That actually made my stomach turn when I was getting it. That was. That was n. She's like covering it up like with the maggots and everything Oh. Oh my go. That was yeah, that was a lot. That's I think when she one of the first mentions of like And I will be hung at some point during this. I was like, Yeah. I was like That's not good. But then I also felt like weirdly bad for her because they were so mean to her, she was say. And that was the one time that like they needed her I know. It reminded me. Have you seen yellow jackets Oh okay, that's al right. It kind of reminded me of Misty. one of the characters who like She's a psychopath, but she like wants to be needed so desperately. And she's like bullied and kind of pushed around Yeah. Yeah. So when she's needed, she like She makes a situation where she is needed. Yeah. essentially. It felt very much like that. And that's what she did. She made a situation where she was. She's like, it's the only time that they ever were like nice to me. I be sad And I like too that like like we were just saying, we don't know who the worst person in the book is Tag L like Winnie, she wnderford is the worst person in the book, believably. There's other people that you're like People are also Really terrible. Like Mr. Pounds is gross. Mr. Pounds is really gross. Like all those people at the dinner party, like the Dowager, I hated the Dowager. Ach a bitch where their canane just hit you She finally got got with that cane. I was like, all right, I'm into that. L a perfect way to take her out. Yeah, it really was. I mean, she, the thing with Winnifred is she exists in this like weird space in the book, and I think it makes it really interesting because she's a governess, so she's in charge of the kids and she She's not She's not known to be family in the beginning. She's not O of the servants, technically. and she's also definitely not an equal. at all. But she's like She has this unique ability to be able to like wander around the house and sit at the table and have more access to places and people without getting the same kind of respect that someone would. And I feel like that helped tell the story really well. Yeah because she has all this access, but she's treated so poorly.. You know. And I really liked that. I thought that made it unique for sure. Absolutely And I think there's a lot of Obviously the Victorian High Society is like a character in this Yeah the setting like it does become a in and of itself. And I think it's like kind of flipped on its ear here because a lot of people think of Victorian high society as like, you know, fancy and like yielded and like everything was so like, you know, like they're elite, they're this but she portrays them as Dgusting.. Dgusting. likeike the Victorian elite are just foul Yeah. And I loved that. It was like little things like when she's going upstairs and looking in all of their rooms. And she mentions the earwax on the pillow at some point. I was like,, like what. And like this little thing like larard was in one of their hair Yeah to keep their hair back. like the scene where they're all eating. That Mikey had warned you beforehand because mine has meophon y. So like hearing things, I swear you could hear it you were reading. That. It was like almost like a nice counterbalance to the crow Yeah meal. Like that meal was just as disgusting, even though these were things like fancy socially prepared. Yeah. Yeah, and how they were eating it. Oh, I know. they're just it was horrifying gouging it into their faces and so gross. And I think it's I love that they presented it that way that like these people like may have all this money and they have all the power They are just as disgusting, if not more And everybody else. Yeah. L I loved. And it was almost like the like the servants in the house were like higher society than society people. They added more together. Yeah. L and the highigh society parents of other baby never even notice. D. not even find like attune to like their own kid that Yeah That And the fact to that Winif knew that that wouldn't be an issue. She's like, Yeahah, I feel like she had done that before You know. And I was wondering too, when she brought new baby I was like, what's gonna happen hereight? Beuse in my head, I'm like, of course she's going to know. It seemed like a corner impossible to write out of It. It really did. But she really was just like, Yeah, not going notice. I love it Oh yeah. Like that's and it was part of the whole like, look how disgusting these people are. She doesn't even know her own child. Right. Like even and it wasn't like, oh, I picked a baby that's like same size.s She was like, this doesn't look like this baby at all. And not only that, it's like it's not as big as this baby. Do doesn't look like this baby has a mole that baby doesn't have. Wheny she scrapes it off for scrapes it off.'m like Is the baby bleeding when you return it? Like what like the outfit it was wearing was like covered in blood but she's like, I don't know, they throw up like She's like, I've learned through experience that like mess looks like blood. It's the same. And I was like, and she and it works They just showed up the next A the next thing being like,ere's the baby? And next with the baby a little older and looking even less evenven less like it should have look. And I loved it because she was like Its nose is going to look different and that's gonna to be a conversation later. I was like, I thought that was so funny But yeah, it was and it what's What's cool too is she obviously like did a lot of research about Victorian times and like weird Victorian customs because They were nuts. Like that whole mummy unwrapping part, I was like, what is this? And in my head I was reading it and being like, this is crazy. And then I bed it up and I was like Oh, that was a thing. L they actually, like wealthy Victorian families would go to Egypt, they would buy an entire Mommy as a souvenir Bring it home have a party and then they would all just unwrap the mummy And I was like, what? That's the weirdest. I'm sorry, what? We're a strange society. And like for what purpose I don't understand the curosity. Why are we doing this?d rich imperialists becausecause we compred very much that. Yeah. Yeah. And we were reading more like they were, you know, They were talking like when she's dressing Driscilla and getting her ready and like all these like features that they find to be desirable are all like features of like tuberculosis. Like that's and that was considered desirable back then. It was like, being super pale and like super frail and you know, the flush in the cheeks and like literally looking sick. Looking consumptive was the cool thing. that she put it in there. Yeah. because it was all very real. likeike again, the The green dress, like that's a thing. I think she mentions the Belladonna ey drops that was a thing to like dilate their pupils And they would just go blind after a while They'd be gorgeous. They'd be gorgeous, you know? B guys. likeike what One thing I really liked about this was in the end when Driscilla joins in and is all like doing all the things for days. They twelve days of Christm the house The twelve days of Christmas where they and when they set them all up at the table And like feed them like food, like they're just like having a whole feast with them. I was like, this is the most fucked up thing I've ever read. and I love it But do you think And Drusilla actually was taking part in that or do you think she was chained up the whole time Yeah, it's a great question. I was I sort of I was going to ask what you thought about Jilla at the end too. Yeah. to go back to like you how much Is this How much more of this is ambiguous than may we think There's a line early on the book where I think, you know, Winnie is confessing stuff. you know, she says I fear I am succumbing to elaborate flights of fancy Um You know, this shoulds be like other times or something, you know. Yeah. So she's like fairly early on. So Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I I think just because it's so weird to say that you enjoy your time with Winnie that you want to think all of this happened Yeah, just as she saidays you're there just as she says and that you're there with her at the end and so you actually re feel as the reader I felt betrayed by Drusilla. Yes. I did too. Yeah Yeah. That's so weird kid. and you know ye Yeah. ike why do I feel this way? Yeah? When I got to the end, I was like pissed atruslla, I'm like, come on, that's your sister.'reosed to rag together. But then once I finished reading, I was thinking about just her being kind of an unreliable narrator. And I was like Maybe I don't think Drusilla actually did help with all that. And then I think when she sees Drusilla in the crowd at the gallows and she's crying, I don't think Drusilla is crying because they had this killing bond together or anything like that. I think she's crying because of what happened to her family. Yeah, like she massacred her whole. I think she was chained up for the whole thing. and I think when he just didn't want to be in an alone maybe Yeah. Right. because that's a hard switch to flip. I mean, I think there were no clues of Drasilla's No you know, potential psychotic behavior. Right anyywhere else, you know, prior to the you know, just to the like caligula sort of twelve days of Christmas that you know Yeah, that whenin he says she took a part in. Yeah And that's the only thing I could think of with that that I went back to. and I think this was smart of her these little things in there was like the painter, like the luurous painter that she was into. And now, you know, the mother got mad and then the father made her hold the locket up and ot it because she had anger toward them. So it wass like you planted that, which like Obviously you're not going to be like, so you should kill your whole family. Like that's but you could at least go back to it and be like Did that like break her a little bit? That's a little hard have that shot out of your hand. Is like having to hold a lock and of shot out of your hand? Well, I think the painter said something to her and again, we can't be sure that he did. She finds a note when she's putting Drusilla to bed and he says something like You have weird tendencies to like please stop writing me,. That's right, That's good point. So who knows was that real? Like would that be just Winnafred trying to justify Exactly the whole thing. You' to be like she's with me, like this did happen. That's why I think the end is so fun because you really can't be sure whether Drisilla was part of it or if she wasn't. Yeah right, It's strange to be made to want to think, oh, Drusilla is going Carry on is like the next Victorian cycl electric bugoo. Okay, it leaves it kind of open, you know, Maybe your sol is next. Who knows And I don't know like which which would you prefer Like was she taking part in it or was she Would you rather her have been I feel like I prefer her to take part in it in a weird way. Yeah. There's the fun part of me which I don't let out very often. That is rooting for that.ight. You know, But I think, you know, the more I think about it I was like, oh, I think, you know, it's more You know, most of the stuff happen, but it's being refracted through Winian. and go towards more realistic interpretation, but yeah, she was probably Sted up there. It makes sense It does make sense in the end. I feel like unless and again, unless she's like this like criminal mastermind and she like partied with her for a few days and then realized they were gonna to get caught and was like, well I'll just quickly do this. want you to believe that her over me. They are related, so you do have to wonder is there something Are they both same the same gw? you know? And again, are they related becausecause Mr. Pound said that's not my daughter That's true. I think mr. Pound, whichich made me wonder too. I like, is he just saying that to be an asshole or I think is that really not important? When he talks about being She talks at different times about being observed and she's not sure quite by who and maybe it's Driscilla. And for a while, she thought it was Drusilla. Yeah. I't know Yeah. There's a lot that you have to wonder Yeah from Winnie's perspective. and defly was fun You mentioned people that they hate before. we haven't hate I hated Andrew the most. Oh I hate Andrew so much. and I was like, why do we get this. Is he only eight Yeah. Yeah. I think he's literally eight He becomes biger and older, but yeah he's only Yeah. walked on the first day and he was like, screw you. This is how it's gonna go. Yeah. The last n, he was better than you. And I was like, you don't run stuff around here, little Andrew. And I think he was like licking food off of one of the nurses fingers and I was like Wellounds h. Yeah, just, you know, mr. Pound and training. like Yeah that's exactly what it felt like. that's the thing. Well it's funny, you know, thin of that because Lisa iss a huge fan of like Jane Austen and other Victorian novels. I wonder, are you all Victorian readers, Austin, et cetera.? I someone big was a big Victorian novel reader what they would think of voice of the style of. That would be interesting. Yeah actually. Yeah. I haven't read a ton of that. so yeah, I thought it was really fun though. I know because I feel like Victorian novels usually like the ones I've read from like school and such. Yeah. I feel like they do present the Victorian aes like this very like And win whinsical and romantic time which I'm sure it had elements of, but like this is rubby Yeah. I mean I do think there's an element of like the manners you know, ex Jane Austen, you was riffing on like the manners and using that for sure. Using that to represent the difference between the classes as opposed to ps like killing babies. Exactly. I think that there is that There is the manner's component to it, like the dinner that we talked about and just how Winnie is treated You know, how she'll say things that probably And reality would have gotten her like fired right away, But you know, for our benefit that that's funny. I don't know. I lived a couple of times where they'd be like, excuse me, and then she'd say something completely different That was great. Like when she says, are we not allowed to eat the children? she's like licking a calf head on like a I was like, what I also just love that everything that one ignored that she did, like ye, the even I think it was like the first day that she was there, she bites into the calf's head. Yeah.s that's the part. Is that regard? Yeah. Yeah. And she's somebody finds her She turns around and she's like, Ohh, we're not allowed to eat the children You had't. that and they were just like, what? they're like, Okaykay you're strange. I love her. I just love how like unhinged she is.. She's always weirdly ruder to the. Like her coworkers. She was Yeah. Like, you know, she talked at times about like dreaming of being this is my forever family. Like she says that a couple times. Yeah. No, you know, she has nothing but disdain for She alsos, but there's still like She wants to be part of Yeah I don't know if it's sometimes if it's humor or her, I don't know, like I'm not one hundred percent sure like why Yeah. That's what I meant like earlier, wasn't just like, you know, she's just You know, she's just Sying her way through the upper class. Right. Like there's no one is spared. like No, I think makes her really difficult. Yeah. And even stranger like how much we enjoy her I know.a she talks about having like lin like shelves lined with dead babies at home. As a child too? As a child and that like she had a full grown woman like outside de like she didn't fit on the shelf. and it was like is that real? L didid you really do that? And I think it is. I think it might be. Yeah I think one thing that we didn't touch on that I would love to hear, like how you guys felt, wereere you absolutely shocked when you found out that mister Pounds was her father? And do you believe that he actually was U I say yes and yes. Yes. I think that's very believable. evenven, you know, of other stuff is of her sort of creation. I think the same thing. Yeah. ye. but I was shocked But I was, yeah,. I got to that point when it was like John Pounds and my mouth literally dropped. And then you have to wonder, you're like, okay, like is this the mister Pounds? So then I kept reading and it was then confirmed I was like, h shit Yeah. I see that coming. And she went in there with a mission. So like when it happened when it was revealed, I was like, oh, like this makes sense why she went in there with like a mission. When she hadt like going be arranged that she got that job too. Yeahah. Yeah I thought that was crazy I know. It was wild. I thought that was a really good just like All of the sudden, just like o my Godd And it was weird too, like going back to like Drusilla now that I'm thinking about it, it's weird that Drusilla did survive this whole thing if she wasn't a part of it. because I'm like did you save her ike D see something that you like and you kind of see throughout the book that she does kind of try to like guide Driscilla a little bit more. than like Andrew or anyone else? L Like I wonder what that was, like what that connection was I wonder if it was like the unwanted daughter thing because she has the unwanted daughter and then they're always like whenever she brings up Drusilla Mrter Pounds, he's like, Yeahah, whatever Andrew, L he's going to take over the name, the family name. so maybe it was that. And like he gets all like the classes and all the people coming to teach him things and you know, she's just got to learn needlework and get married. Yeah to get married. So maybe that isn' Maybe. But I think it kind of lends itself even more to the ambiguity of the whole thing because now I'm like, I don't know. Maybe she was chained that whole thing the whole time or maybe she was part of it. I don't know I also love that this has like There were I was reading it out loud, like certain parts of it to my husband last night because I was just like laughing at certain parts. he was like, what is this? So I'd read him a line every once in a while and he was like, what is this story? is going on? But I think it has such a good mix of like pure horror. Like the end is horrific The baby being killed horrific And like them even them eat so fun so funny. It's like with there's real comedy in there too. It's like such a good mix and I feel like That's really hard to accomplish. Y. It's tough balance because you're either it's going to go too horrific and you're going to be like the comedy doesn't fit here and it makes it weird and like I'm uncomfortable with it. or it's going to go too like goofy and then the horror feels goofy too. and neither of these felt goofy. like a perfect mix And it reminds me that have you watched Widows Bay Yes, oh yes. I haven't started it yet I've been trying I'm like trying to recruit people to watch what' f. It gave me the because I think that show that's how I've been describing it to people is like The horror in it is genuinely scary at times, but it is so funny And the bunny isn't Overly goofy where like you know, waters down the horror. Yeah that It gave me that. it's That's a great point. And I've In other interviews, I've I because I love I like horror comedies, but I think it's really hard to sort of say what you describeed is not to have the source of the comedy be the horror.. That's what most horror comedies are. It's really findine hard to find in my mind or comedies that are both scary and funny. Yeah, especially in terms of film And I agree this book does it Wow Bay is Widows Bay is doing it? Yeah. ye. And I think it's and I was When we first started watching Widows Bay, I was like, oh my God, they nailed this combo. And again, like you were saying You just like don't really see that work ever. And so I was like, oh, this is like a diamond in the rough. Like holy shit. Yeah. And then reading this right after we started watching this, I was like, how have I come across two pieces of media that have done this so well in the same like two weeks b. It's the horror Renissance. It's the horror Rnaissance. I tell you it is. That's what makes me so excited for this to now be translated into film. I feel like it's gonna be rude fun Yeah on really. I know. I know this I'm scared. I'm excited. I' optimistic. I'mcially optimistic. We always we always have this Yes. if the film does not work We have this. Well the fact that you said she wrote the screenplay that gives me a lot of optimism. Yeah. ye. Yeah All right, now I think we have to get to what I think you might have come for, which is the raapid fire, W you rather All right kindind of slasher edition. Yeah, we got a mix. Yeah. we have a whole mix like New England stuff in here Victorian Sanal. some of your work in here. Oh, All right. All right. So number one, would you rather be trapped in a mirr manner with Winifred for twenty four hours or trapped in a group chat with every villain character from your novelles Uh I think I'll go with the group chat just because I feel like I won't die. I might be really annoyed and disturbed L I think I wouldn't last very long with Winterf in the house. Fair enough. And you can always throw on like, do not disturb, you know? That's valid. Yeah. I think that's valid. I think that's what I would do And I'd be afraid she would kill me and replace me with other Paul and people would be like, there's Pul with N Pul There's Paul and then there's new Paul. Yeah. See H Like I'm one of those people that people will text me and I'll look at it and be like I should answer that. And then I just don't for like five days. And then I'm like, I'm so sorry. and it's like, I'm just bad at it and I get overwhelmed and like executive dysfunction. so I feel like being in a group chat. Yeah. is my nightmare?. Well, and the vills in your book might kill you. They might just I don't want to listen to them. So I think I don't know I feel like M in Winnifred for twenty four hours We might be okay. Could be cool, hang. I feel like we might be okay. You can have like a Drusilla and Winnifred kind of Yeah I just want to believe that. Would it be other people in the house for her to kill just in case or is it just you? That's a n on just one on one one on one. Yeah. So you do have to survive that. Yeah. because she is gonna have to go twenty four hours. her. She started off pretty chill. She did. Give her a calf's head. Yeah, there you go. Let her lick you every once in a while. Yeah. Give her your earlbe. That's all you need. Yeah Yeah I think it's fine. You know what? Yeah, I'm in we going Whinnie. I'm going winn. mean, don't want her to like me, but All right, so the next one is, would you rather have a ghost follow you forever? Just follow you around Or a book reviewer follow you forever. D. Oh man, I think I'll have to go with the goost. I don't know, it'd be very scary at night though. But like I don't know how you do it, but like I actively avoid reading any good Reads or Amazon. There lies Madness So I, if you're talking like, oh, like a I't know like New Yoresvs following around. I feel like they might be a little bit more polite, but know. M hang We're making it a range internet reere. it's random internet, then there's no choice. I would do the coast. Yes, one hundred percent. I agree with you. hundred I think a ghost too just because I think that's fun. Yeah. And I feel like ghosts have followed me in my life. So nothing you hear And I feel like you could eventually become friends Yeah, ghost like you can You can have a rapport point Yeah. You get used to their tendencies. It's a ro mate Iar I'd annoy because I'd start calling him Casper or something and they'd get pissed off. they'd be like, Maybe that's your bomough, know? That's true. b. That's your thing. All right, would you rather receive one life changing, terrifying supernatural visitation? like Earth shattering, justust one, just one. or Would you rather receive one brutal goodood Reads review every morning? whichich is good. So I have to review it. I have to read it. It is one every morning. Which is a probably tough wayike are brutal. That's a hard start. Yeah. Geez, mayaybe I mean So Like ninety eight percent of my day, I'm a card carrying skeptic atheist, don't believe in anything. but there's like the two percent where I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm toally freaked. N next say I'm like Paul, are you such an idiot. So like, you know, I tell people that I don't believe I don't want to be proven wrong So even though I'm leaning towards the first thing Um becausecause in some way in some ways that would actually still also be really cool. likeike Yeah who, there's There it is. there this exists. So I think I would goal with the first Yeah so it probably scare the shit out of me and I'd be like Yeah becauseuse it's going to be brutal. But at least it's just one. It's not a bad v you every day for the rest of your life. Yeah, you know That'll get you down That's the thing. I cant I feel like it proper therapy and help I can get past a brutal supernatural experience that I can't explain. That's true. But having it happen like a brutal goodood reads review every morning for the rest of my life. I feel like that would That would take years. I close to home I mean, because I could do that easily. Yeah. That's a thing. I feel like that' thing that could really happen. I could do that right. I don't want to. Don't do that, you too. Yeah, no, no, no So this one I'm really interested in Would you rather be able to write a first draft in one week? Or like Steph Graham Jones. Yeah, just like boom. Exactly like boom, hereere we go.s. Yeah. Would you like to be able to revise a manuscript perfectly on one pass U I'll do the one pass. One pass. One pass, I'll do a newcript I was hoping you would answer that because I also feel that way. Yeah ye I'm fine with the first draft taking forever. Yeah. I mean, as hard as it can be I love like how life sneak sneaks in. Like it usually takes me twelve to fifteen months to come up with a draft Oh, it's kind of fun. Like the book gets better by living with that book for that time. L things happen things that I never would have In that week, I never would have come up with like it took that time. So I' think I think it's too realistically, but yeah. it's tr That's a realistic one, you know it makes sense because it kind of like dips into, you know, if like something's happening that week. The writing's going to change a little bit and the story might change with it or a character might change with it. So I feel the same way. I think I don't mind like sitting with a draft for a while and like tinkering with it Once it comes to like the first passes and edits, that's when I'm like I do this Definitely though Me too. Yeah, you know. ye So the next one, this is also a really good one, I feel Would you rather encounter a ghost from sixteen ninety two Salem or the ghost of a really salty sea capaptain from Cape Cod Everying salty personality. Yeah Maybe he's salty and probably as well. He's probably physically salty as well You know, my knee jerk is to go with the salty person, but I think I would become really annoying because I know I would just start talking like them like It's so bad. like if I talk to British friends for more than five years, I start. we it on purpose and I feel like such an happens. It just starts happening.. Yeah. But I think maybe for the comedy of it, the Salty Sa Captain. I think that' have a new impersonation could flip into every once in a while. I would think Beverly next to SaleM. I'm like, I mean, I love that area but give me the new G me the new g Yeah sixteen ninety two ghost just sounds really scary They probably really like faced a lot in their life. so And I wouldn't understand what they're saying. like how they talk old ever seen the movie The Witch? like ye, you know I love that movie but like I don't know what you'd have to constantly be like what? And then you might start talking like that for yourself. That's true. That's true See, I might Regardless of all of that, I might pick the sixteen ninety two go. That just makes sense for you because I just want to know everything. Like I think I'd be like sit down. Tell me at all. L what happened here? Yeah. I need to know. I want to know everything. That's fair. I also want to I want to know like, are there still bodies under you know, Gallows Hill. Yes, burial point. you're still thinking Wadows Bay. You want to hang out with Hamish Exactly. L Warren gu. Yes. I want to know. Yeah. Like tell me tell me what it is like we haven't used They haven't figured out there' still bodies buried in the area. And I'm like, you gott to tell me. so You'd ask about like Giles Corey. Yeahah, I'd be like what was he like? Yeah seems kind he was kind of a add Iconic at time. you know, yeah. ye. I'd want to know all of that. I get that. I'm going to see Ctain I get it. Yeah. J just fun. Yeah, you know That's fine. So I'll get the sixteen ninety two person Yeah and we're togethercialty sea capaptain. And we'll sing sea songs. Yeah she was I love it. And we'll all get together and we can learn things compare. Yeah. All right, this one's kind of heady Would you rather have definitive proof that ghosts do exist or definitive proof that they do not whichich we kind of touched upon, but we did swort up Hm. I think the f again, the first one would be more fun. like Like I would say like, I don't have to prove they don'tist. To me, that's almost like the assumption. L you would have to prove the other way, right? Yeah. Yeah I mean, I you'd be. L the most famous person on Earth. and it's true. It totally cash in on proving I'm just thinking I want money. I'm a full time writer. I need money. I'm desperate. So yeah, let me prove the ghosts Yeah, right for tell alls Yeah on it and interviews, like Yeah on on on. yeah. Eience. I want proof that they exist simply because that's just I don't want to live in world where they don't exist. That's how I feel. that's the fun in that. Beause I always say the same thing, like I'm a very healthy skeptic at times, but I believe I want to believe more that they do exist. We add so many experiences that it's crazy to me that you're still skeptical.s I try my first knee jerk instinct is to try to explain it with some kind of I grew up in a haunted house. And I try to explain it. and sometimes I can, but sometimes I can't So many things in that house we grew up in. inexplicable. Yeah. there's definitely been a lot of f. And that's why I'm more over on the side of like, okay. ye, I think there are something. I don't know what, but yeah like to Well, when I'm always pose that question, I feel like I disappoint people. and say, yeah, like, you know, because I've never experienced anything. Yeah. And I've always said, I feel like if I were to experience, it wouldn't be like sllimer from Ghostbusters. Yeah. It would be really subtle. and just off. and like as time passes, I would be We want to explain it away. Yeah. And that would just be the way it would go. Yeah But anyway, I don't know if that adds anything I was thinking. I think. Well, And I had like like one thing that happened in our house growing up that I to this day like cannot explain. and that's the one that really like got me like, h, what is that We had like my house used to be like an old farmhouse. so it's got all this like crazy history and it's super old. We found like weird shit bur always weird shit buried there. And the primary bedroom, like they added my parents added onto the house, but the primary bedroom like used to be my bedroom And it always had weird shit going on in it, but again, I was like, it's fine, Nothing's weird here And it became my parents like art studio when I kind of like got older and I moved into another room. That room is scary as hell. And it's scary now. And we had like it was when we had which like RIP computer rooms where it was like The room where the computer lived They used to shut the door every time And you had to go past the primary bedroom, the old one, to get to the computer room. And one night I was walking past it to go to the computer room The door was shot. And something from behind the door the door from inside so hard That I jumped across the hall like into the wall. My dog like jumped up and was like, what the hell was that?. I think my dad heard it and was like, what did you think do Like why was that? And I was like, I have no idea what that is. It was in there. He opened the door, notothing was against the door It sounded like somebody took this and slammed them against the door and it was right when I walked by That's terrifing. And that's the one that I'm like I don't know how that happens. Is't that the same That's a good one. Yeah. That same room. Yeah I used to spend the night in that room of like You had people over something I would sleep in that room. And I was on an air mattress like watching the Disney channel probably, I was like ten years old. And there was this like Tuppaware like container thing full of old magazines probablyb like two o'clock in the morning and it just slid across the room with like crazy force. I screamed so loud. My grandparents came running, you came running. and nobody there was no way to reenact that or anything. It was that room tilted all of a sudden? No. because it was so forceful. Yeah. That room has weirer. So if you tell me that and then say you have to go stay overnight in that room, I would be like, hell no. I never want that room again. E though I say I don't believe like stay in the support of the haunted house, I amm not going to do that. Yeah. So I guess on some level, I I fear, I believe. Yeah Yeah. have a you have a healthy fear of Yeah. I feel most skeptics feel that way. Yeah, you know Yeah, healthy fears there. Yeah All right, so bringing it back to the Bridgewater triangle If you were dropped into the Hockmuck swamp just right into the middle of it Would you rather find giant cryptid type footprints everywhere Pfectly normal human footprints that should not be there How would uh I was going say crypted, but then my daughter would just make fun of me because she was when she was a lot younger, she used still loveved big foot stuff. my go thing big foot't get so mad at me. Um What would I r? I mean, I guess I would rather see the cryptid. I mean, that would be so cool like to be wrong be like, oh wow, there is this L giant eight big fooot thing that goes around. And who wants to? I was going to say, who wants to come across a serial killer in the wood? Yeah no one Like I don't want to come across a random person in the middle of the Hwbooks one that's my worst night. I'd much rather run into Bigfoot. Just be one with Bigfoot at that point. Yeah, to's really like take on their customs and everything. I'm ready. Yeah, let's go. I love it. And start knocking on trees with rocks communicate with them. really long.' crazy with it. We can bond. Yeah. really That's about it I like it. All right, would you rather have Winnifred plan your wedding or host your funeral? Oh o geez Well, it seems like family and loved ones are both in danger in jeopardy in both scenarios. That's true.. That's very true At least she doesn't have to be at your wedding. I'm gonna be really selfish, I'd say play my funeral ' I'm already dead. Yeah, there you go. Like if it was my wedding This's a chance that I could be one of Yeah I think the red wedding. Yeah. That's true. Right. I was I want my red wedding to be a bummer. my funer is already to be a bummer. Yeah so she could just make it more of a bummer. She might live and exact even. Yeah.' true. Yeah. And you just don't have to deal with the aftermath. so it's nice to not clean up after her. Yeah, you know. I feel that too. I feel her wedding plans would be a little too Macabre for me. Yeah Yeah, so she can do my funeral. I agree So T to some ghosties. Would you rather be haunted by a Puritan ghost who judges everything you do? or a Victorian ghost who constantly corrects your etiquette Oh those horrific Yeah C I go Victorian? ' The etiquette stuff doesn't bother me probably much of the sagin of some people that know me. Oh Yeah, it'd be easy to laugh off that ghast. Yeah, the Eetiquette coast. Yeah. Yeah I feel like Ma is kind of an etiqute ghost. I would say followed by the M just take that. I'm used to it. Same ' the Puritan ghost Yeah would make me create. Like again, I'll take the sixteen ninety two Puritan ghost that like hangs for a second and just tells me things You gott to go after that. Yeah' around. And I would, I mean, just to take the logic out further. like if the purits in ghost is telling me not to do things It' like, Well, if there's a purit and ghost, maybe you know God is their God. L. I shouldn't be doing this stuff. So there you go.t mess with my head. That That's true. That's a really good. I can ignore the etiquette but like purit is like, you're gonna go to help you do this. You're like, mayaybe I am. that just becomes like OCD. Yeah. That becomes too existential for me. and I would start losing my mind, I think for sure. Yeah Victoria, Enetiquette goes for sure. Yeah. And after reading this book, you could just be like you're gross. So I know. Why are you telling me this? Did you unwrap a mummy? Oh yeah. would unwrap a mummy All right, you were dropped into the middle of thege bridgewater triangle at midnight You can choose one companion A ghost hunter A crypto zoologist Grace A witch or Stephen King Who do you choose? Um I've Stehven and I have exchanged a bunch of emails but I've met him in person. It Be kind of fun to be in the woods with Stehven. Hell yeah. hope he's okay with that. I don't know if would w want to be get in there no matter what. Yeah, he's just there. Yeah. Stehven. Yeah, I mean he even I'd be yeah, yeah, that's definitely for sure. Yeah. That's your choice too. That was my choice.s like because I could be my own ghost hunter I don't I don't host hunted that A crypto zoologist, I feel like would just be like, oh look, that's big fooot and I'd be like, No, I know. I've done my own research. That's a pwaee. I know I of research I'm from here. A priest. No, no. I didn't know that came. A w. We are. Yeah. I was like, I could be my own wit, you know that's fine. And then I was like, Stephen King in the middle of the Bidgewater triangle or like the Hwamuck swamp, I was like just start writing together. I was gonna say, then maybe we could be like, let's come up with a story together. based on your experience Yeah, just to have a hang with Stephen King in a weird space. I mean Stephven hears this thinking he's gonna to start writing misery too. Yeah. It's like o my Godd We wantan to be in the middle, the oncees be sa. Goddamnit. It's like, oh help. I love it Yeah, that's what. What is yours? Oh, good call. Yeah. U I feel the same as you. I don't I can be a ghost hunter. the same reasoning and I've never met Stan King. so ye, why not I them I have a lot of questions I want to know about Mombo number five. Yeah I really want you obsessed with that song. Yeah. What if you like tried to be like a real woodsman was really bad at it wass like, He hey, you know, we can eat this mushroom. trrust me. can. Like trust me, I mean there's potential. traat falls to I. That's tr It be silly because I might believe him. L if he ends the thing with trust me, I'm Stehen King, I might be like, ye, you are right. so you are Stehen King. Well, then you in the woods. That's kind of fun. With Stehven King? Yeah, who can say they did that week. Definitely would choose him over Grady Hendrxs. Like Grady would Cady. Yeah. We're not plopping She's complaining about like bugs As ask you to hold his blazer, his I know. He's not used to New Eng. L like his like lime colored blazer might help us see we like work our way through. It could be like a flare. I could be. I could be advantageous. I could, you know. He's gonna be he's gonna listen this and be like, damn, I thought we had fun on that. I know. L guess I'll be joining them again. That real nice. barring them for my next event Well, speaking of Grady Yeah. lastast question. Okay. Would you rather fight one Stephen King clown So petnty was essentially. Y. Or one Grady Hendricks possessed IKA product Horror Star product I think I didn't go with the horrorore. I don't know I think the clown is, you know T Morphy Yeah. I've read Horror Torore was a while ago. I don't have as much a memory as what they could does like suck me into the store and like the other dimension know, but I could s like I could fight a bookcase name. What's it called like Benny or or something like that? Yeah Yeah, it's kind to be scared of of Benny of Benny. That's true. That's I have some of those at my house Yeah. I'm going to look at them as ans. Put your dukes up Asper up. I see that. I thought this was easy, and I think it's still kind of as. Oh it's easy for me. Like Penny wise is too much like every fear of yours he can just become. So like h no And especially like the big spider, no thank you. But I'm also like, it's also one of my biggest fears to be locked in an IKEA. Like when when you get lost in that loop and you can't find the right way. Yeah, that's See for me, I'm gonna find the meatballs. You are going to find the meatballs. to all survive. That's actually smart Thank you They have cinnamon buttons too, I think do. So that okay. Yeah, they have good stuff. I'll fight radi handic survival. Yeah. ye. that is survival. Yeah It scce pennywise scares the sh Yeah me. So I think it's colloquially, I think it is it. Yeah. I think everybody thinks of it as it's so true. But yeah, that's our would you rers? You survived it. You killed it. Yeah.. I think I got two Maththy with it with my logic butook. No, I like that. math teacher. That's smart. You're only recently retired.id It's gonna leech out every once in a while. And honestly, Grady got very into it as well. He thought them. I know I heard him,. he asked for extras. Yeah. He was like, let's go. We had to get theme. No we' were like, Oh my go, don't shit. we have. I was like shit. But I think that went well. I think we all survived that. Thank Yeah. And I know this it was a blast. Thank you for being here. Thanks for joining me. my absolute pleasure We This was so much fun. We've been so excited for this. and same. Well thank you. Thank you. And everybody read Paul's books. Yes, please. Go watch the adaptations. They're amazing U and Stephen King don't send us a cease and desist. We just want be friends St just in the woods? Yeah, we just want to hang in the woods with you. That's all. Okay. You can go anyime. Yeah. That's all. So before we go, I've been dreaming of electric cheap. comoming on june thirtiet Oh get it Heard what it's about. It's going be awesome And Paul, if you have anything else to plug or you want to further plug? I guess I would just I don't know when this podcast is going to run, but on july second as we mentioned Grady, like he and I will be at the Strand New York City bookstore trying to sell this book. Go there I've tried to convince him I'll wear the suit and he'llar a t shirt with tatoos.. She should wear the lime green blazer. Yeah. Yeah. Lak. I love that. I love it. So go check them out. go see where Paul's gonna be and go get his book or else Yeah All right. Well guys, thank you for listening. We hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it. Weird, but not so weird that you don't go by Hlls books. Do it, you better Thank you again to Ashley for sponsoring today's episode and for sending us this gorgeous, gorgeous furniture. Ashley is the largest furniture store brand in North America, and they're focused on helping people create comfortable, functional, and a stylish home or pod lab that they can feel proud of at a price that feels accessible and reassuring. 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