Lessons on Political Courage

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And that means you'll find more peace of mind with them Relieve your insuranoyia with NjM insurance by visiting njM. com for a quote today Communism is a loser and it always will be The communist system is the opposite of the American system and the communist system has never worked Our warriors did not fight communism on battlefields across the world, only to have that menace Rear its ugly head right back here in America. We're not going to let it happen. We like to stop a threat like that. immmediately, and before it begins, it's like a cancer. You got to cut it out, you got to cut it out fast And Intel came in, they had a problem. I said I can solve your problem, but I want ten percent of the company. They said, what? I said, I want ten percent of the company. and he agreed to. And the stock has gone through. So I think we made sixty or seventy billion dollars in eight months. Do I get credit for that? No. Somebody said, That's not very American. I said, No, I think it is very American actually. President Donald Trump, in his july fourth address railing against the threat of communism just days after defending a tactic of his administration critics have described as socialism. Good morning and welcome to morning, Joe. We hope you had a wonderful fourth of July, a wonderful holiday a weekend. It is now Monday july sixth. We're back to work I'm Jonath Leer in for Jo Meka and Willie. And with us, we now have columnist and associate editor att the Washington Post, David Ignatiious. MS now senior National seecur reporter, David Rode. MS now contributor Elise Jordan and MS now senior Capitol Hill reporter And you just saw her hosting way too early Alie Vitali Our thanks to all of you, great group to get us started. We have a lot to get to. It's a very busy Monday morning. Wegin with President Trump Traveling to Turkey later today for the annual NATO summit, a gathering of leaders from the Alliance The president, of course, has long criticized and at times threatened to outright abandon Trump is expected to push members to enforce their pledge from last year's summit. to step up defense spending, a a frequent grievance of the president toward the Alliance Trump is also expected while there to meet with Ukrainian President Volododymyr Zelensky as well as with Syria's new president The war in Ukraine will likely be a key focus at the summit this week. Early today, on the eve of this gathering, Russia mounted its second major attack on Kyiv in less than a week firing ballistic missiles toward the Ukrainian capital, and killing at least eleven people acccording to Ukrainian officials Let's get started by bringing in MS now interternational reporter Inez de La Quittera, who joins us live from Inkara Turkey. It has set the scene for us there on the ground ahead of tomorrow's summit, Iran of course will be a topic of conversation, but now also Ukraine Good morning, John from Ancharor, where we may be able to hear the call to prayer going off here, but yes, one of the big points of focus is going to be President Trump calling for Allies to ramp up their defense spending. We know that was a big win for him last year when he got Allies to commit to spending five percent of their GDP on spending. So think this year, you're going to see Allies trying to prove that they are doing just that. We know that has been a big big point of frustration for President Trump. He's talked about it time and time again. And just last week, on Truth Social again, he said that it was ridiculous for the US to maintain its relationship with NATO. He says it's a one sided relationship because he says that NATO didn't show up for the US in its war with Iran. So I think that's going to be a big point of conversation. We also got a briefing from the US ambassador to NATO, Matt Whitaker, who said that was very much going to be something Trump is going to talk about that he's going to get allies to get on the road to five percent. And he's going to do that with urgency. So that's something we're watching. We are also watching Ukraine, like you mentioned. We know President Trump has said he wants to now resolve the situation in Ukraine now that he feels that he has made progress on Iran. know he spoke with the Ukrainian presresident Zelensky over the weekend, Zelensky saying that they had a very good conversation. Trump also spoke with Putin. They had a lengthy phone call, roughly ninety minutes. And this comes as you mentioned, as Russia has really been ramping up its air attacks on Ukraine know overnight were sixty eight missiles fired at Kiv, three hundred and fifty drones, at least fourteen people killed and over one hundred people wounded. And I will say that's not coincidental that that is happening right before this NATO summit gets underway. We saw the same thing happening right before the G seven summit with Russia striking Ukraine on the eve of that summit as well. So Russia, they are clearly trying to send the message You know they still have the upper hand. They want to counter this narrative that they're not doing so well on the battlefield. And then just lastly, something else we're watching, I think when you look at President Trump's personal relationship with world leaders here, the relationship with Georgia Maloney is going to be a very awkward one. We know they have been feuding. This will be the first time they come face to face since President Trump claimed that she begged him for a photo at the G seven summit. She says that's completely false. And again, over the weekend, President Trump mocking the Italian Pime Minister MS now interternational reporter and has the quQera reporting live from us at the summit site in Turkey and has thank you so very much. David Ignatius, let's turn to you here First, let's talk about Ukraine. Certainly, the headlines have been very bad for Russia in recent weeks. a real sense that Ukraine has some momentum here. They've shown the ability and willingness to strike deep within Russia's territory. But as Nz just said, Russia tends to try to undercut these summits, both with violence strikes at Kiv, but also President Putin calling President Trump and clearly trying to butter him up and remind them of their allegedly great relationship. Do we anticipate any progress here at this summit Progress is not a word that fits easily with Ukraine I think we're coming to a real crunch point in Ukraine. Putin's forces are increasingly embattled, cornered almost on the ground. Ukraine's mastery of drone technology has made it almost impossible for the Russians to advance their death and wounded rate every month approaches forty thousand. blood bath for the Russians in Ukraine. And increasingly, Russia iss getting hit hit at home. It's power facilities, Its electrical heat grid are all now targets of Iranian Ukrainian deep strikes. So I think Putin is getting more and more concerned. What I'm beginning to hear from Western officials is a concern that Putin, feeling back against the wall may strike out in some way against other European NATO countries. that this is a period NATO as a group has to be concerned about becoming a target of Putin as he seeks to escalate his way out of a crisis where he's not winning this war. So he's doing two things. He's bombing Kyiv as hard as he can last night was another example of that. He hit last week last Thursday terrible loss of life in Kyiv, a new level of intensity of bombing. plus this threat that he may try to do something across the border in the Baltic republics, elsewhere along the front lines. So it's pretty where Trump is going to have to stand with the NATO alliance that he's not all that comfortable with unless otherwise he' going to show real weakness to Putin And at least, I mean, NATO has remained remarkably unified here about the war in Ukraine, despite Trump's efforts to undercut it there'll be a lot of tension at this meeting. there always is. And this is just we should always remind viewers the one time that the Article V self defefense pact was enacted in NATO was the rest of the alliance coming to the United States as aid after September eleventh. And for years staying in Afghanistan part of the war and the reconstruction effort. So NATO here looks pretty good. It really seems to be the United States, that we're the outliers in how we discuss the war in Ukraine. And David, I want to hear about this briefing call you were on with the White House yesterday because it's dramatically different Their readout of what's happening on the battlefield was so different from a political national security analyst who speak about this war Yeah, I was surprised. And as David said, there are signs here that Ukraine is doing better than it has in this entire war There are gas lines you know, forming all across Russia at this point. and so Putin's under a lot of pressure And by some measures, they're actually taking territory for the first time So there was reporters on this call with two US officials yesterday. The first question was, will Greenland be brought up And the answer from the U. S. officials was the best way to resolve Gin is for the United States to acquire it That's not going to go over well with the Europeans. The next question was essentially and I asked the question about has momentum changed You know, do you see that the Ukrainians are graining ground and that that's amazing these drone strikes in Moscow? The answer from one of the U. S. officials was noope The front lines have been frozen for the last two months No progress And and I try to frame my question is this a moment for the U. S. to sort of join Europe in pressuring Putin to end this war. you know, you have this momentum now And the answer was essentially no, and that the US is still considering withdrawing U.S. troops from Europe. At a time when Vladimir Putin is growing weaker And just one broad point the on the cooperation of the U. S. war with Iran. As the NATO Secretary generenal pointed out, there were four to five thousand U.S. flights, military flights from Europe during the Iran warar. This narrative that Europe wasn't somehow supporting the U.S. and actually all countries in NATO are now meeting the two percent goal. The Nordic countries and Germany are their on track to hit the five percent spending goal. To Trump's credit, you, he's got them to spend more money. That's all progress. You're not going to hear that from Donald Trump, I think in in Ankra. And those European leaders, of course, weren't consulted about the Iran war. They didn't want that war to happen, yet they did in some limited way, mostly you know help out. And Joe and I talk about this the show all the time, it is remarkable how the White House is so out of step seemingly with reality about how that war in Russia is going. They simply refuse to acknowledge that Moscow does not necessarily have the upper hand Tough on Europe, easy on Putin. It's that simple. And so it was quite surprising. and just completely misreading European domestic politics, just the mention Merloni was critical It's a political suicide for her to do anything and to cooperate in any way with Donald Trump because he's so incredibly unpopular in Europe right now. All right, moreore on Iran now. crowds of mourners are still flooding the streets of that country today For the funeral procession of the late Supreme Leer Khammi, who was killed in an airstrike as the U. S. and Israel launched that war with Iran back in the last days of February video shows the late leader's flagdraped coffin on board a truck as it makes its way through the streets of Tehan lined Thousands of Iranians waving flags while dressed in black Iranian media reports that millions are attending the largest public gathering in the country's modern history Aan's body will be transported to several cities across the country and into neighboring Iraq before he is buried in his hometown The Farewell to the Supreme Ler is a multi dayay event with scores of people already packing into squares across Tehran over the weekend. Some carrying signs andchanting slogans threatening to avenge his death The late leader's son and his successor has still not been publicly seen since his father's killing. There's been reporting that he was badly wounded and also of course, remaining hiding for security purposes. So David Ignatius, I mean, among those chants this weekend and lots of the whole classic death to America, certainly You know, despite President Trump claiming that a new, more moderate, more reasonable people are in charge there in Tehran, the Ati American sentiment remains strong. And this funeral comes as a real rallying point perhaps for the Iranians at a moment of real impasse in these negotiations where Iran again over the weekend made clear that in terms of the Strait of Hormuz It's either going to be their way or no way The funeral to me, Jonathan was a reminder that an aging leader Ali Humini widely believed to be in the last years of his life presiding over a country that was increasingly fragmented in this martyrdom and death seems to be bringing Iran back together around the hardest line In other words, we've gone from a situation in which change in Iran might have been possible to one in which change in Iran seems less possible In other words, pretty much the opposite of the outcome the US and its allies would have desired. So watching the pictures from Tehran, this mass gathering, it's hard to come to any other conclusion. We'll see whether the Iranians really are prepared to negotiate an opening with the Strait of Hormuz. That's really happening on a separate template watching those street scenes, you get a sense the country through this war has pulled together in a way that didn't seem likely when the war started february twenty eighth. And of course, there are open questions about if you went from a hard line regime to a harder line regime in the aftermath of the US starting that war with Iran. You know onene of the pieces that's being discussed during these ceasefire negotiations are what happens in Lebanon. That's something the Iranians have said they need a full peace deal there in order to proceed to a peace with the U. S. And that makes it more interesting. Asresident Trump told Axios on Saturday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu asked for a White House meeting and that it could take place as early as next week after Trump returns from the NATO summit Int a brief phone call, the president told Axios, quote, We get along very good. Netanyahu knows who the boss is, of course, referring to himself And David Rode, we have seen the US and Israel begin the Iran conflict together, but knowing that their interests would diverge in the region, we've obviously hit that point. But what might this meeting look like, especially as Netanyahu seeks to look on the world stage, but then also assuage his own domestic political concerns with an election looming there I think it'll look very warm. That's what helps Sen and Yahoo and think Trump is happy to do that. But the reality behind the scenes is that so the six this MOU that was signed that started the sixty day window for the second round of negotiations, that was signed just checked on june seventeenth So we're approaching this Wednesday will be four weeks of those talks That as far as I can tell have gone absolutely nowhere. They've gotten more complicated. The Iranians are moving the goal posts. They're demanding that Israeli forces withdraw from southern Lebanon. Netanyahu can't do that. That would be political suicide for him in Israel. And as was mentioned earlier, you know, Iran is demanding now, you know, fees in the strait and control of it. So this whole plan in terms of the long term the impact of war and then the negotiations now I don't think it's going well for Israel or for the U. S at this point Coming up, our next guest is running for US Senate in Michigan. Congresswoman, Hay Stevens joins us after a big shake upp over the weekend in that Democratic primary, that conversation straight ahead here on Morning Joe Summer's a gift The gift of days that last a little longer. a brighter state of mind. So giveift yourself a new Kia at the KIia Summer Sticker sales event, Especially tagacked vehicles including the Sorrento, Sportage, Carnival, as well as the Nuro Hybrid. All backed by a ten year one hundred thousand mile limited powertrain warranty. So the gift of summer can keep on giving for summers to come. Kia Mvement that inspires. Call eight hundred thirty three four Kia for Details host atafree event and seven hundred six twenty six to deeala for warranty details This land is your land. But have you really seen it? Maybe it's time to slow down and enjoy the ride. America is calling. Explore it with omni hotels and resorts. Book now and save up to twenty perents, plus kids eat free So you know the uneasy anxious feeling you get when you think about dealing with your insurance company? Well, there's actually a term for that. It's called insureanoia And if that sounds like something you're way too familiar with, you should really think about getting NJM insurance They go to great lengths to do what's best for their policyholders by providing dedicated reps whose priority is you And that means you'll find more peace of mind with them Relieve your insuranoia with NjM insurance by visiting njM. com for a quote today The reflecting pool has been a big success. and we've got a very the three hundred forty million people in this country that are celebrating two hundred fifty, we did have a few vandals, but all that's going to be repairable and that'll all be fixed in the coming weeks as we go forward. The actual cuts that were made into the industrial liner and that's a you know been measured out. so that's just a fact that's's what's fifty four cash Well, it's multiple gashes that add up to three hundred and fifty feet across that. And so and again, some of this happened early on. there was a where we've installed more cameras. I mean, we weren't expecting that we were going to have a small group of people that wanted to try to destroy effectively what is part of the Lincoln Memorial Okay that That was Interior Secretary Doug Bergam on ABC yesterday doubling down on President Trump's claim that Vandals have damaged a Lincoln Memorial reflecting pool amid a sixteen million dollars renovation Bergam also claimed the landmark, which was closed for the july fourth fireworks display on Saturday is crystal clear and free of algae. We should note there've been formal charges now Against some of the people accused of vandalism of the reflecting pool. There's been no evidence whatsoever presented that it actually occurred. At least this has been such a boondogle for Trump and really an on the nose metaphor for how things are going for his administration right now. It's a no big contract that went way over budget. that is you know something he shouldn't have even done in the first place. need to touch. I mess up the algae that was going already. There was al Right. There's green. the water was green. and then now it's been being controlled by federal law enforcement. I mean, it's just a disaster. Well I mean, if that's what you wants your National Guard and your federal law enforcement doing, monitoring who's touching the reflecting pool now, if that's the level that we're at for this national security state apparatus that Trump has built, I guess we're there, you know It is what it is. What do you make of it? I'm just surprised. And what's strange is the Bergham talked about now they've got all these cameras installed there. It's just like will show us the evidence of these people making. repeated cuts for three hundred and fifty feet and they they just don't it seems have any evidence. It's a strong look it's classic thing. It's distraction. It's blaming mandles. I guess blaming the far left, but This project has not. And no evidence supported and President Trump's hopes for the july fourth two hundred fifty celebrations wee did not quite pan out. Extreme heat in DC, storms as well crowds not nearly what he anticipated despite his defensiveness on truth social. Meanwhile, there's a new report that found that investors of the president's crypto coin largely suffered losses Trump's financial disclosures reveal that he earned one point four billion dollars from crypto related ventures The cryptocurrency analytics firm Nansen was able to trace transactions of Trump's meme coin through a digital ledger or a blockchain The firm found that It's of the end of last month Nearly nine hundred ninety thousand buyers of the meme coin have lost money. That's equal to two out of every three buyers. that makes for a total loss of three point eight billion dollars As a Friday is trading at less than two dollars down ninety seven percent from its peak of seventy five dollars But not everyone was a loser, about five hundred thousand buyers profited from the meme coin, making a total of four billion dollars. Nansen found that this figure, quote reflects a small number of early buyers capturing enormous gains while the broad retail majority absorbed the losses And Trump's own disclosure forms released last week show that he also made money att least six hundred thirty five million dollars from the sale of his meane coin Trump also co founded a crypto startup with his sons called World Liberty Financial and reported earnings at least five hundred twenty five million dollars from token sales through that company But Nansen's analysis of publicly traceable transactions related to World Liberty Financial found that eighty five percent of those who invested with the company recorded losses and they totaled eighty three million dollars Meanwhile, former Republican governor of New Jersey, Chris Christie had this to say about Trump's financial disclosures He and his family believe they are entitled for this This is an entitlement to them. They believe when they came back and won this election the second time that that gave them license, that the American people gave them license to essentially go and take whatever they could take over this period of time. And quite frankly, you when you look at the scale of this, here's another thing apparently that Donald Trump learned from Vladimir Putin during his first term This is Putin esque type of corruption and self enrichment. Every time he says one of those things, the ballroom won't cost anybody anything. Now we're talking about them wanting to move a billion dollars to work on the ballroom. So you know, the American people are starting to catch up to this. You can feel it. Governor Christian ABC yesterday and Ally, I mentioned the reflecting pool is an on the noose metaphor for the Trump administration. So this, so' this meme coin debacle where the vast majority of people, the supporters, Americans, probably many of whom, you know, don't have a lot of extra money laying around, invested in this and lost. while Trump and a small set of his rich friends and family it appe made a whole lot of money I mean, look, it's great work if you can get it, in this instance, great if you can invest in something that you're one of the people who makes a buck off of. I think this, when I think about it from a political standpoint, David, is a clear underscoring of why the democratic message going into the midterms is the haves and the have nots, the people who the system works for and who can work it to their advantage peopleople like the regular American public who cannot, who are still worried about the cost of their groceries, the cost of their gasoline, even if prices are coming down. And I think that fits the domestic political moment. But then you pivot to some of the national security concerns that have been pervasive, frankly, since these things, like the meme coins and others first came on the market, the questions is about, are there foreign investors as part of this? Where is the transparency And what are they paying money into for? and what are they getting for it? Which of course, brings us back to the corruption that Governor Christie was talking about there. And so I wonder how you're making sense of this from a global landscape and from a national security perspective. So Aike, corruption's a powerful issue everywhere in the world. You think of Viicttor Orban and Hungary, what really swept him from power? And rememember, he was a White House favorite was a perception throughout his country that he was corrupt, that he was self dealing, that his friends were getting rich And the average person in Hungary was not. And I think there's beginning to be a sense in the United States peopleeople are being in effect taken for a ride here, when you have a situation where the people issuing these Trump meme coins end up with billions, including the president and his family. and the people who buy them end up suffering eighty seven percent losses It's obvious that there's some kind of a game playing being played on the average person and that begins to make make people angry this sense. These people think they're better than we are. They think they're getting away with something. We'll have to see how that plays out, Trump has been a magician in being able to turn his life as a billionaire somehow into his life as a billionaire populace, speaking for the average guy. But I sense from what I read and what I hear that there's growing anger about this sense that this is a corrupt self dealing administration treats the public's property. just look at all the stuff going on in the Capitol. treats the White House, all these monuments as if they belong to the president, and people know they don't Coming up How to Be a Dsident in an Age of Fear Our next guests wrote the book on that and we'll get their perspectives when Morning Joe comes right back In a major shake upp for Michigan's Democratic Senate primary, State Senator Mallory McMurrow has announced that she's dropping out of the race. This leaves Cgresswoman Haley Stevens and progressive candidate, Dr. Abdul El Said as the two Democratic hopefuls fighting to replace going Democratic Senator Gary Peters It's expected to be quite the competitive August primary in a race that could play a key role in determining control of the Senate. and Cgresswoman Haayley Stevens joins us now. She serves on the House Committees for Education and Workforce pllus science, space, and technology Congressman, thank you so much for joining us this morning. goodood morning to you. First just let's just get your reaction to the news. This was a a highly contested three person race. You know, the state Senator McMorrow is certainly someone who had created a national profile for herself in the last year or so, your reaction to her deciding that she's going to be suspending your campaign. Well, State Senator McMorrow has actually been my state Senator for almost a decade. and she has been a tireless fighter for Michigan. She led the charge to secure abortion rights in Michigan. She took on some of the very complex challenges of gun violence and led common sense gun safety legislation through State Capitol. And she also ran a really inspiring dedicated campaign that traveled everywhere. and I was inspired by her and her supporters Have a home with my campaign. I'd be honored to have them join. and we've got to beat Mike Rogers. and I'm in the best position to go do that. Michigan is a swing state. If you wantna lower cost, stand up for Michigan manufacturing and jobs, take on Trump's abuses of power Th I'm your Gle. Let's go win So obviously, that's the general election. But let's start with before we get there, let's talk a little bit about the primary here. Can you frame the contest now? What are the key differences between you and your remaining opponent Dror El Hite Well, look, in the House of Reps, I've been recognized as Michigan's most effective lawmaker. I take on tough challenges and I win. I'm so proud to have four term US Senator Debbie Stabanau supporting me in this race, The mayors of Grand Rapids, Lancing and Lavonia people who fight for Michigan and win for Michigan. And I'm ready to take on these tough complex fights in the United States Senate. Donald Trump is completely of touch with Michigan. Look, he started a trade war with Canada. Small business revenues are down forty percent. Health carere costs are only going up and it's all because of the billionaire class that's trying to run our country right now, not on my watch I want to see us clean up Washington, ban stock trading for elected officials and candidates and the president and the vice president. Look, people are sick and tired of these abuses of power. and I get that. But the difference between me and my lasting primary opponent is I have a record I actually have won and beaten Republicans and I have delivered for Michigan an enormous scale and I'm gonna do it again Congresswoman, one of the key contrasts of your candidacy Dr. El Said is your steadfast support for Israel. And he has called what Israel's conduct in the war in Gaza. He's called it genocide, and you have rejected that label. Do you see Israel's conduct of this war as within the law of proportionality of international humanitarian law? Well, let me be very clear to everyone tuning in this morning that Benjamin Netanyahu and Donald Trump have not brought us closer to the goal of long term peace. You know, that is what I have always push for. There is a difference between me and Abdul. I believe in a two state solution. I wna see the people of Palestine and in Gaza live peacefully side by side the people of Israel. He cannot qualify Israel's right to exist And look Benjamin Natanyahuu has made us less safe. He has frankly put Jews in an uncomfortable position across this country and the world. And I'm gonna stand up to him as a senator. and I'm gonna also continue to stand by Jewish people, Palestinian people, and this goal of long term peace. That's what we need to see achieved You know, one of the things that has come up as well is of course this national conversation, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, of course supporting Dr. Sayed, Al Sayed. And so the question I have is, what does that progressive wing, the Democratic socialist wing of the Democratic Party, what is their support signaling to you? how do you respond to that larger momentum in which Dr. Al Saed is being placed inside of this wave. alongside a certain ideological wing of the Democratic Party Well, I can tell you who else is supporting Abdool's campaign, and that's Republicans. They're spending thousands of dollars right now to prop up his candacy, to put out paid for polls. And no one wants Abdual to win more than the Republicans And that's because they think that they can beat him in November. What they've never done is beat me That's the reality here. that's that's going on So conongressan before we let you go, just your thoughts here about you if Democrats are't able to take control this November,, what would be some of the key agenda items with President Trump still in office? Well, look, I want to lessen our dependence on China. I want to create jobs and I want to lower costs. and I've got the legislation and the track record to do that. We also have to wake up to the fact that we have ballooning consumer debt in this country, that folks are upside down. One of the gals in my community just the other day was telling me She's, you know, underwater At the end of every month, that folks can't figure out how to pay all these bills and not go into debt. That's not right. And so look, as the most effective lawmaker for Michigan, and you mentioned my work on the science committee and I've been the most effective Democrat for science and tech issues I'm putting Michiganders, our hard work, our work ethic at the forefront. tax code fairness, no more tax cuts for billionaires. I'm putting you and your family first, the Michigan way. Join our campaign, get involved. I'm working my tail off and we're gonna to win in November. Democratic candidate for U Senate Michigan. Congresswoman Haley Stevens, thank you for joining us this morning And at least, let's give your quick thoughts here on the race now. I mean, certainly right there that at the end that was a very much local, populist pitch. battle. you could see herear that playing well in Michigan, but it is a complicated race. It's becomeing an expensive race. It's one that has national implications. What I think Congresswoman Stevens does have a problem in that the electability argument is supposedly her strength and she's been embraced by the establishment and outside money, she is way oututs spepending every other candidate in the race. It was partially why Senator McMur dropped out according to unnamed advisers, but she's still lagging in the polls. And so is she really going to be able to take that small sliver of McMurrah's support? or is it going to actually go to El Saed who has momentum right now? That's what I'm really wanting And right now what we're seeing state after state across deemocratic politics, establishment figures or losing. It's the progressive candidates who have far more of the energy. Still ahead here on morning Joe. Our next two guests are out with a guide for finding courage in an age of fear and challenging authoritarianism in order to preserve democracy This important and timely conversation is next right here on Morning Joe. This summer, Fandool is the best place to bet on goals. Including equalizers. Uhuh Boies? Yeah, Pters. Every goal is worth more on fandool. So let there be goals. You customers get three hundred fiftyteen bonus bets guaranteed when you bet five dollars five for seven days. twenty one plus in present and select dates. First online real money wager only, minimum five dollar wager required for seven consecutive days, five doarars first deposit required. 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All loans and amount subject to lender approval Welcome back. Last year, an essay in the New York titled So you wantan to Be A Dsident attracted national attention as a roadmop roadmap for resisting Authorism. Now the authors behind that wildly popular piece are back And they're taking that message even further with a brand new book titled On Courage How to be a dissident in an age of fear. It's been described as a manual for political courage It's based on more than one hundred interviews with dissidents and activists worldwide offering sixteen lessons for Americans on how to defy authoritarianism in everyday life And joining us now are the co authors of this work Pulitz Prize winning investigative journalist, journalist Julia Anguin, and former senior policy adviser to Vice President Kambla Harris Ammy Fields Meyer.ur. thanks you both for being with us this morning I'm string with you. Talk to us about some of the people who were in this book. And you what did you when you decided to compose a handbook, I guess, for being a dissident, who did you pick, which dissidents to consult We talked to over one hundred people on F continents. And so we spoke to people fromrom Venezuela, from Russia, from Hungary, we talk to people all over the world. and I think that it's actually important to start with talking about what a dissident is. I think Americans tend to think of a dissident as someone from another time and another place. It's people like Navalni or Mandela or Malala or these people from who evoke history U We spoke to people who have defied authoritarianism in their context. and so Most of the people we talk to are actually not names that folks have heard from. These are people who, for example, a mom in Venezuela in a working class suburb, who broke with the authoritarian Chavez movement, even though there were extraordinary social risks and economic risks in doing so. We spoke to people also across the United States who are standing up at universities, for example, that have stepped into coercive compacts with the Trump administration. And so What we were aiming to do, we thought that if we wrote a book about authoritarianism, That's just the most courageous people. Predor naturally courageous people in history. That's interesting, but not that helpful. We wanted to do people who were more like us actually. So Julia talk to us about those in particular in the United States at a time when so many do fear that there is a, you know an authoritarian in the White House Yeah, I mean, the thing about authoritarianism is it is always about lawlessness and corruption. And there are people who have been fighting that longer than just this administration, right? That that is something that is practice. And so we wanted to highlight the people who've been fighting for their rights and for the Constitution to be enforced the way that it is supposed to be And so we have all sorts of stories people maybe youve not heard of, right? So we have a trans activist group that is helping to smuggle trans people out of states where they're being have been criminalized. They can't live there anymore. so they're helping to freely move them to other states. We talk to people who volunteer in front of ice detention centers giving out water and helping the families that have to wait eight, ten hours in the sun to try to go see their loved ones inside And what we found is that there's So the pathway to doing this type of work is actually it's not you woke up and you're like, I'm just feeling like courageous, beat my chest, et cetera. It's actually about caring about other people It's about wanting to help someone who, even if you don't know them, right? And so honestly, we felt like some of the stories about dissidents are so mythologized and so heroic that they actually make it seem really unattainable. But really, if you care about your community and your neighbors, I mean, Minneapolis is such a great example of that, that is actually what courage looks like I mean, you've worked in politics before embarking on this journey studying dissidents and authoritarianism, I'm curious what you make of Viictor Orbon being ousted from power in Hungary and what you learned from the Hungary example? I think it's a really important question and an instructive question for the United States. The number one thing that I get from the Hungry example is that Authoritarism doesn't look like what it used to look like. It's not your grandmother's authoritarianism. This authitarism doesn't come in through the back of a coup. It comes in as it did in Hungary and as it has in other parts of the world through elections. And those elections and our democratic institutions get less free and less fair and more corrupted and more hollowed out. And that's what happened there Part of the way that Orban was ousted was through a massive cooalition, a big tent, a popular front, the likes of which we're beginning to talk about in the United States on the American left But the other major takeaway, I think from the defeat of Viictor Orban is that Be authoritarism is now gradual, because it happens slowly and over time There are more offer ramps. And so as long as the United States still has the freedoms that we have We can look to that place as an example for how to use the liberties that we still have in order to get off the offerhamp as opposed to a place like Russia where it's impossible to imagine the civic airspace being open enough for something like an election