Ongoing Risk and Final Reflections

Hello there and welcome to Murder Mos British. I'm Zach. Hey, welcome, I'm Rachel Hia. Hi, welcome guys. Welcome This is going to be a crazy one. Yeah. ye. this one was voted on byy our patrons as our next England episode And then the next member poll should be coming out sometime. and it's gonna to be picking the next whales episode. Oh exciting. After this one, I do believe Yeah So we're on episode forty two at the moment. Yeah Sharon Carr The devil's daughter Absolutely wild. Great pick guys, Great pick. Yep, ye I think I kind of stacked it stacked the voting there You can't put something like the devil's daughter in voting and people, Hey. That sounds Yeah Yeahah, definitely Yeah. It's been like just researching it and writing it has been Absolutely insane. So yeah Bunle up think Before we begin, just a small request from us If you enjoy listening to our true crime stories, please give us a like, a follow, and a five star rating It really, really helps. Also follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Murdermost British and on Facebook at MMB Podcast And if you want even more murder Most British, you can join us on Patreon for ad free episodes, early access and exclusive bonus cases that you won't hear on the main feed. to patreon. com Food Sash, Murder My British podcast Take a look You can also join us in the public Crypt chat, our free Discord channel, where you can talk about cases, share theories, and read the latest news from the archive Sort helps the archive grow and ensures that no story is ever forgotten This episode contains discussion of child perpetrated violence Nigh violence, mutilation, sexualized violence violence against animals, domestic abuse and murder Some listeners may find this content distressing. So listener discretion is strongly advised. Yeah, definitely. There's a lot going on just by the disclaimer. so yeah. to the story So in the early hours of a summer Sunday A young woman left a nightclub in Camberly and disappeared into the dark byy morning, near a cemetery path in Farnborough Four boys returning from a night of camping found her body been stabbed again and again and mutilated The violence was so extreme that police believed they were hunting a man That alone would have made it a horrifying case But this story did not end at the scene in some ways It began there Because later, investigators would find a line in a diary that made the whole case feel even darker I swear I was born to be a murderer Charon Carr was born in Belize on the twenty first of december of nineteen seventy nine in the final years before independence The country had only recently stopped being British Honduras She never knew her biological father who had left soon after she was born And years later, Sharon would say that she regretted that She was one of four children ure that emerges from those years is one of Poverty, instability and very little that felt secure Her mother Maria, later married a British soldier serving in Belize and Sharon and her siblings took his surname. that marriage brought the family to England. In nineteen eighty six, they moved to Camberly in Surrey On paper, it might have looked like a move towards something steadier Cambly was a military town with an orderly, respectable surface. But Sharon grew up on the old Dan estate And behind that appearance, the family's private life was volatile. Yeah, getting that military. I remember moving around. Moving basasses Yeah they somewhere near. tend to stay at the same base like for the whole career do they so? You're just moving around, but you find you move somewhere and you're stationed there for a few years and you meet somebody and Yeah he, hey, it's going. So then you either like stay there or move away or whatever, you know depending on your contract Craz So at first Sharon did not stand out as someone headed for infamy Teachers initially described her as polite and helpful She seemed to have settled in pretty quickly and made friends easily Susan Carpenter, the vice principal, later remembered her as above average With lots of older friends, boys and girls and said many staff found her refreshing friends said she especially liked the company of older boys She also later played on the school basketball team Just settling in, man. That's good. Yeah. But the first impression didn't last. The charm was still there, but so were flashes of aggression Over time, the bright sociable girl people remembered became disruptive, attention seeking and increasingly difficult to manage She challenged authority more openly In nineteen ninety, while she was still at junior school, her head teacher contacted social services because of concerns about her behavior. Yeah, they don't do that lightly that You gott be really l. Serious concerns, deffinitely Geez. At home, things were getting worse too Her mother was described as volatile and harsh And her stepfather was violent as well The house was marked. not just by rouse and instability by serious violence and physical abuse Then the marriage broke down after one especially serious incident when Maria poured boiling fat over her husband. Both were hospitalized with burns and Sharon was there to see it Much was later made of how calm she seemed to be in that moment As if scenes of violence had already become familiar to her Well, after that, Sharon spent a short time in foster care before returning home about a month later By the time she started secondary school, her mother had a new partner who had already had two dauers So the dynamic of the household changed again but nothing seemed to settle for long. Even before Sharon was a teenager There was already a pattern of violence, instability, removal and return pouring hot fat on Ouch, That's crazy. I mean And then her just feelt so calm Yeah. Yeah'd be freaking out What the fuck is you screaming? what the fuck's going on here outside the home. Sharon's reputation was changing too She was spending time with older kids, and there were later claims that she had started smoking cannabis at a very young age Teachers and neighbors were no longer describing a child simply trying to find her place in a new country People on the estate were afraid of her. That print vice principal later said that after the trouble at home, Sharon became an attention seeker who used her strength to bully other girls By then Adults around her were no longer talking about isolated incidents They were seeing a pattern which you can understand she's experiencing this sort of seeing these herer parents sort behaving in this way. she's going then It's like a learned behaviour like you think, o, well, you know that's how we can treat people and you know this is just normal. Yeah. This's how everybody acts, right? Yeah. Well, there were also stories about cruelty to animals. Oh God no. Pets had started going missing around her. Sharon was linked to the decapitation of a next door neighbor's dog with a spade. Jesus. veryery brutal And there was also a claim from a friend that she had fried live hamsters Some of those stories are firmer than others By the early nineteen nineties, she was already being associated with behavior people found deeply disturbing and the fear around her in the local community was becoming harder to ignore So with these behaviours, clearly, you know if the school have become aware, of course, they're going to get in touch with the social services.. Hence They did Serial killer serial sl Deinitely Nav is H are't all a serial killer in the magazine. Yeah killing animals. We've seen, you know Many cases start with that that they are serial killers become or go on to become serial killers Yeah, very, very seems to me like a textbook case. Yeah Then there was Katie Ratcliffe She was eighteen living with her parents in Holly just outside of Camberlely and working as a trainee hairdresser The descriptions of her Brief, but warm She had friends, a job. Nights out and a life. that was still just getting started One former boss, Alison Moore, said Katie was not just a member of staff but a part of the family She came from a completely different world to Sharon Carr Even if they moved through the same corner of Surrey Surday the sixth of june of nineteen ninety two began as nothing more dramatic than a night out Katie Radcliffe went to what I think is a pretty cool nightclub name, Ragamuffins Nightclub in Ragamuffin Raguff. Pre cool. So she went to Ragamuffin's nightclub in Camberly with her best friend, Michelle Like plenty of people on a weekend, she had gone out to drink, unwind and enjoy herself But during the night she ran into her ex boyfriend. Who was there with another girl And the encounter seems to have upset her Which, you know? Yeah I would. I would say it'd be a bit awkward She had recently split from him and had obviously tried, but unsuccessfully tried to patch things up didn't quite work out how she wanted So staff later remembered that she seemed upset and the worst for wear. when she left. After she left raagamuffins in the early hours of the seventh June The night began to slip out of view Somewhere after that, Katie crossed paths with Sharon Carr They were strangers This was not some argument carried into the dark Not a feud reaching its end, not some old grievance turning violent Until that night theirir lives had not crossed in any real way After that The trail became broken, brutal and hard to piece together cleanly. Well Katie didn't make it home that night aboutbout five hours after she was last seen leaving Ragamuffins She was found in Farnborough, miles from where the night had begun Exactly how she got from one place to another was never really fully clear But the distance, the timeline and the condition in which she was found all raised a hard possibility. that she had been moved by C She should not been hidden carefully or concealed with any real effort She was left out in the open, half naked for the daylight to find. So that morning Four boys who had been camping in the back garden of Toby Howouse's house walked straight into its aftermath The boys had heard screaming during the night but had brushed it off as people messing around in the dark. By daylight They were the ones who found Katie. Toby Howow's mother, Claire said the boys were in deep shock when they came back Yeah, I think would be, wouldn't they if they come across Yeah, you got you like Just people walking around you again. It's just not something that you you wake up in the morning and you go for a walk or you know, you head down to the local shop or something and think that you're going to find, you know, it's never going to be on your mind that oh, today I might find a half naked dead body. you It's it's yeah veryy shocking like I can imagine putting myself in their situation The attack itself was savage Katy was stabbed Over and over with a knife that was around six and a half to seven inches long The wounds were concentrated in her torso and genitals. Her heart, lungs, liver and stomach were penetrated. Some of the blows went straight through her body And this was not a single strike in panic. It was sustained, frenzied violence Lord And it did not end there Katie's generitals were also wounded and mutilated Her clothes had been pulled up. There was no evidence of sexual assault in the conventional sense But the attack plainly had a sexualized character She was stabbed around thirty times or so in an assault that went far beyond what was needed It was overkill Some of her jewellelry was taken, which adds another layer to the attack. Not enough to make it look like an ordinary robbery, but enough to make it feel more intrusive What was done to her was excessive, intimate and sexualized violence inflicted by someone who was, in any normal sense, a stranger And remember She's twelve Gastw Sharon Carr is twelve At this at the time of this. So keep that in your minds Yeah, absolutely crazy if you're old doing this Yeah, I'm from twelve, just running around playing video games, riding my bike around and shit I mean that yeah, I was doing that at twelve just. reacing about going Riding up to my friend's house. Yeah. because we only had a push by then you know Yeah My mum weren't running me around like she was a taxi. you know? You just hop on your bike on you go or you run foot? I just remember riding around going Where's everyone's biike set? Whose house are they at?, There we go No I wasn't thinking about this stuff. This is crazy. Oh mind you, nine times out of ten, you know, you plan to go to whichever friends like when you was at school. you're like, yeah We'll come to yours like after, you know, or we'll meet up at the at the wreck, you know Yeah. Madness. Crazy police, the obvious assumption was that the killer was older phhysically stronger and almost certainly male Everything about the scene pushed them that way the extreme violence. The mutilation partial stripping and the fact that she had been left miles from the nightclub Hampshire Police moved fast An incident room was set up at Farmborough and detective superintendent Ray Piper led the early inquiry In those first hours, he described the attack as, quote, Frantic, vicious, and sadistic Well officers searched the area around the cemetery path for any evidence and tried to piece together Kate's final movements They appealed for anyone who had seen her at Ragamuffins or seen her leave to come forward Detectives also looked for a green opal record Registration NWL. fifty three W been stolen from Station Road about one hundred and fifty yards from where her body was found. Public appeals followed as well including on Crime Watch where police said there had been five hundred and sixteen people in the club that night All but thirty three had been traced. Katie's parents also made public appeals for information And two local businessmen offered ten thousand pounds in reward money. in the hope that someone would finally come forward Even with that, No one could clearly piece together Katie's final movements after the club It became one of the most intensive murder inquiries Hampshire pololice had ever mounted And yet case stalled so After all that. Yeah. I mean, up until this point the police don't know that the suspect is a twelve year old. Yeah. they just think it's a man. Well, you know, I mean, you even think that under eighteen is going to be you know. driving a car an ea, you know? The traditional wisdom for them is This was a man, you know, probably in his you know, late twenties, early thirties. You would one hundred percent think it would, you know strer than likely be a man because of the sexual nature of the injuries and stuff and obviously half naked There's not really many cases that we I mean, there are cases, obviously, but it's highly unlikely that a female and especially A young female as such as a twelve year old is going to be attacking in a sexualized way and an adult. Yeah attackking and usually they attack O kids like them. Exactly, you know, so Well, one witness later said that Katie had been seen outside the club on her own and looking upset And a staff member remembered her as one of the last to leave at around half past two Detectives also looked closely at three men who had been at Rugamauffin's that night but each was eventually ruled out Crime Watch appealed over Kateie's missing jacket too, noting that the bottom button on the left hand side was gone These were small details, but by then the police were chasing anything that might narrow her final known movements. But none of it was enough. The case stayed unsolved. Grasping at anything Crazy Two years later Sharon Carr was fourteen years old Collingwood College in Camberly On the seventh of june, nineteen ninety four two years to the day after Katie's murder. She attacked another girl thirirteen year old Anne Marie Clifford in the school toilets. Sharon had lured her there by claiming she had lost a pound coin and wanted help looking for it Sharon had stabbed Anne Marie in the back with what was described as a four inch knife and punctured a lung The attack only stopped because four or five other pupils walked in Sharon would also threatened to kill Anne Marie if she told anyone Later material would suggest that this was part of a pattern. Sharon formed intense attachments to other girls and women And when those fixations were frustrated term violent. Lord Thankfully, the other girls walked in. Jesus. Yeah. She sounds such a vicious girl. Psycho Thankfully An Marie survived. the attack changed her life badly injured and deeply traumatized by what had happened She had difficulty sleeping, nightmares, and a lingering fear of what Sharon might still be capable of She later remembered looking up during the attack and seeing Sharon smiling though angry too at the same time as she stood over her Sharon was arrested after the stabbing and was found on the school grounds the following morning You just headed right back to school like nothing fucking happened M Well after Sharon's arrest, she told officers that she enjoyed stabbing cats and also beheaded a dog. After that, she was sent to Middlesex Lodge Assessment Center in Hillingon A secure assessment unit Even there The violence continued She assaulted other females too, including trying to strangle two nurses In December of nineteen ninety four, she was convicted of grievous bodily harm over the school stabbin and ordered to be detained at herer Majesty's pleasure with the assaults on staff also taken into account Hm Even after hours of questioning by police, probation staff and social workers, she said nothing about the murder of Kateie Ratcliffe keeping that close to the chest From there, Sharon moved through psychiatric units and A Cliff secure center, including an all boys unit Before being transferred in september nineteen ninety five to Bullwood Hall Young offffenders Institution in Essex. It was th her aggressive and sexualized behavior could be managed more effectively there Yeah, I think if she's I'm not surprised they put her in an old boys unit because obviously her were aimed at the females. So, you know, people would say, o, well, you know, she's a female. she shouldn't be in all boys' unit. Well You know, at the end of the day, the aggression that she was showing and the risk to females, not just other residents of these units. but also the staff. Yeah Yeah, most definitely. she was even attacking nurses and shit. so like trying to rel her into where she's not involved with women. Exactly. Yeah Well, staff at Ballwood Hall encouraged young offenders to confront their past But in Sharon's case, the silence seems to have broken for more personal reasons She started talking on the phone to friends and family to a probation officer, to staff and to other prisoners But the key figure was a prison officer called An Netsini to whom she had become intensely attached That fixation was a big part of why she began talking about Kateie's murderous all There we go again. she can' attached to with again. What she was saying included details that should not have been in her head unless she had been there staff passed that on and the unsolved murder of Katie Radcliffe was reopened Officers seized her writings and drawings searched the house at the oldld Dean Eestate and found more material there Diaries and notes stretch back across months and years which only made them more damaging Among the material was a scrap of paper Along with letters, notes and drawings of the knife Detectives then questioned her for twenty seven hours And the investigation did not stop with the interviews and the papers Sharon even helped police film a reconstruction of the murder out what she said that she had happened As she went through the details, she was repeatedly laughing. Absolutely wild like As a cop, you just go This person is insane. Yeah, because you Why would they be doing this Um you know, moral compass and you know that this is But she's she's laughing throughout describing stuff. Yeah reenacting Yeah, the anyy normal person would be like this girl is absolutely crazy. Yeah Remorseless? Yeah Enjoyy You know, just like she's watched an amazing funny film. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like Oh my Godd. Psch psychopath Yeah Well, what came out of that questioning was not one neat confession but three different versions of the Kight The details shifted The center of them did not In every version, Sharon said that she had stabbed Katie She knew about the bracelet taken from her, something not made public And she knew details police had deliberately withheld about the injuries and the scene In one account, she described violating Katie's body after the stabbing However much these stories moved around, They kept coming back to the same point She knew things only the killer should have known Yeah. I mean, there's no way other than the killer would know about I do those things was a bracelet. Yeah, yeah Well, she also named two boys. In one version, Sharon claimed Katie had tried to entice them away from her gave the attack a warped edge of jealousy In another, she said that the boys had raped Katie before the body was dumped spoke to both of them, but they gave each other alibis and were eliminated Even so, one question remained How had Katie been moved four miles from Camberly to Farmborough and had Sharon really acted alone We each gave each other alibis. That's Wow. I was with him. He was with me. We were at this place. Good, good That's crazy How can they give each other an alibi? and that's you need it outside you and their possible suspects. Yeah, wild, man You need somebody different to say yes, we see these two boys together at this place. Yeah Yeah, he's just mad Well, her manner during all of this seems to have left almost as much impression as the words themselves Dive Sergeant Paul Cleens, who interviewed her extensively later said it was almost as if She was in another world What stayed with him was the coldness Most people, he said, show some feeling when you ask why they did what they did withith Sharon He saw a complete absence of emotion and reason Well alongside the interviews, there was the writing Sharon did not just mention Katie once or twice, she kept returning to her The diaries, notes, poems and scraps formed a pattern of fixation Sexual excitement, cruelty and repetition One of the clearest lines was also one of the simplest I am a killer. Killing is my business and business is good Elsewhere, she wrote, quote Damn, I've got a taste for red rum God I want to get drunk and said she had chosen what she called a payback life because nobody had listened to her problems Th then the entry is narrowed on Katie herself One read, quote Remember KR Oh God, she did get me going So hardot Pity really I think about it and my head spins but against the cops I'm winning. Other entries suggested the killing both thrilled her and haunted her. dwelling on Katie's body exulting in the murder and trying to turn it into something grander and darker than the reality of what she had done Then the sexual violence came fully to the surface One entry said quite If only I could kill you again, I promise I'd make you suffer more. you slagg Terrified screams turn me on By this point, the writing was no longer just boastful. intimate, sadistic, and fixated on sex, fear and power Lord That is for a, you know, what she's writing this between like twelve and fourteen. Yeah How you know, just so depraved and Dit fors are very dark Then there was one entry that read less like a boast and more like a replay of the murder itself We we're going paraphrase I didn't wanted to go through all of it In it, she described brringing the knife to Katie's chest said she needed to overcome, quote, her beauty, her serenity, her security and ended with a chilling line about Katie's final breath. I am joyful. U Evil woman, evil girl. That made me shiver. Oh good God And mean of such a young age, you think, how can What has caused somebody to behave or think You like this, you know? is it Are they born? you know, there's always that question people ask Are they born a murderer? or, you know We've said this before, but like the nature versus nurture You know, there's been plenty of people who have overcome all that stuff a violent past, a violent family or whatever and they've grown up to be spectacular people and, you know, we're stronger and then some just But like does it fall down to just choice, you know? Are they choosing to do it because they get a threat you know, like O is there something in their psyche that is really off You know what I mean? Like Is there a way that, you know, when when a child is born to maybe do like a scan, just like a, you know, like an MOT type thing, you know, on their brains. I mean, possibly. Just to see if there's you can pick up on anything that I think it's also developmental 's not just from when they're born's later on. and some of them like that. Okay before they start sc then like you know the age of four, you have a little brain scan to see how you're developing C here a little Johy, hereere's your psychopathy test I would do that, I would do that. I would be like, yep, I'll introduce this I mean If it's a preventative, you know, if it could be some sort of preventative measure, then ye, maybe. You know, who knows, maybe one day Well even after that, the writing kept going In another note, she wrote Qote, I was born to be a murderer Killing for me is a mass turn on And it just makes me so high I never want to come down. Every night I see the devil in my dreams, sometimes in my mirror, but I realized it was just me I mean, the word ins and stuff you know, she doesn't sound like a kid sick. Do you know what I mean? She sounds very teachers teachers did say she was like above average. Wild I can't get my head round it. So in November of nineteen ninety five, she wrote Last night It occurred to me Killing her did me good I know what I'm capable of We'll do it again And it didn't stop there. And January of nineteen ninety six She gave further confessions, extending the pattern that had already begun around the prison officer. On the fourth anniversary of the murder She even wrote Rpect to Katie Ratcliffe four years today. By then, investigators had the old dead end, the sudden breakthrough The withheld details, the two boys who led nowhere The notes in the loft, the diaries, the letters, the drawings Coldness in interview Page after page of Sharon Carl returning to Kasey Ratcliff again and again Sharon's words, her writings, and her knowledge of things that should not have been known by anyone but the killer turned an unsolved case into a prosecution She was arrested over Katie's murder and in may nineteen ninety six She was charged. By the time the case reached Winchester Crown Court. in March of nineteen ninety seven One fact hung over everything else Sharon Kar's age She was seventeen in the dock had been twelve when Katie was killed That gave the trial a grim and unusual tension from the start The trial lasted four weeks, and this was not a case built on forensic evidence It turned instead on what Sharon had said, what she had written And what those things suggested The jury heard diary extracts, letters and tape recordings from her police interviews They had to decide whether they were looking at the fantasies of a deeply disturbed girl O the repeated missions of the person who had actually killed Katie That'd be a tough one as a juror Yeah But then with the detail. Yeah, you know, like like you don't w want to believe it. You know, you're not going But it's true. You know, if the killer she knows deta she's written things that and told in interviews, obviously that On the killer would know, well then it would make it easier for the jury, you know to convict without physical evidence and Yeah it's just very it's just very rare and unusual to be in that situation going D did a twelve year old wife can do this. This is crazy.ikeike we said, trying to get your head around Yeah. acceptance that a twelve year old and girl as well, you know, is so violent and sadistic and you know, just done some horrific things to this girl And since, you know, in her Yeah. st in units and stuff. so Before the case reached court, Sharon had recantered her confessions Now That is why the prosecution pressed the diary evidence so hard. Stuart JonesQC told the jury, quote, She is constantly preoccupied with the whole question of Katie as all of these writings will demonstrate. Crown's case was that Sharon kept returning to the same victim The same killing and the same feelings around it because she was writing from memory, not invention Not one stray boast Butter pattern prosecution put it, she had either been haunted by what she had done or had exultted in it Mhm. The prosecution also said the nature of Katie's injuries and the tone of Sharon's writings pointed in the same direction This was not being presented as panic or childish loss of control It was being presented as deliberate. sadistic and sexually charged violence in the crown's view. The writing matched the injuries that were inflicted onto Katie The defense pushed the other way Sharon had given different versions of events Her accounts shifted There was no simple forensic thread running straight from the crime scene to the dock So the defense position was that a deeply disturbed teenager produced grotesque, inconsistent and unreliable material And those writings should not be treated as a dependable account of what happened that night. Bllshit Anyways The jury was not just deciding whether Sharon had killed Katie alsoso deciding whether this was murder or the lesser offense of manslaughter. And the prosecution kept returning to the same problem for the defense Sharon knew too much She knew about the stolen bracelet She described an injury police had deliberately withheld So even if parts of her story had changed The crown's case was that she kept revealing knowledge that only the killer should have That's it That's that's the biggest d she revealed too much? Yeah, definitely Well, there was also the question of whether she had acted alone And that did not go away in court One unresolved point was how a twelve year old girl could have moved Kate's body weighing eight stone eight pounds accross a pavement and around a corner on her own The judge is said to have felt the evidence suggested that she was not alone That uncertainty did not stop the jury deciding the case against Sharon herself. They did not need every loose end tied up to decide whether she had taken part in Kay's murder Sharon herself made an impression in court as well One report described her as stocky and childlike in appearance wearing a white polo neck and a crucifix and said she looked as though she had arrived for her first communion. trying to make her look good. That only sharpened the gap between how she looked and what the jury had been hearing for weeks. Then, after about five hours of deliberation The jury Seven men and five women returned a unanimous verdict guilty of murder. notot manslaughter murder Well that conviction made Sharon Carr Britain's youngest female murderer The judge then lifted the order that had protected her identity during the trial, saying it was in the public interest that she'd be named. Damn right. For sure Mr. Justice Scott Baker said and I quote What is clear is that you had a sexual motive for this killing and it is apparent both from the brutal manner in which you mutilated her body and chilling entries in your diary recording what you had done Killing as you put it, turns you on. Then he added, even more plainly You are in my view An extremely dangerous young woman. Hell, yeah. Yes, sir. Yep. You ain't fucking' wrong She was detained at Her Majesty's pleasure and her minimum term was set een years Not am. Yeah No, that's bad It's also taking into account this issues Ch was still all time, but still it fourteen years is in America though you know, younger people that are under eighteen They can be tried as an adult. If it's so egregious they' so crazy. they're like, you know what You're a fucking adult. Yeah Well this is good thing. I think over here is like from you can be you know, I charged and sentenced for a crime like from ten years old Now age of responsibility. Yeah. yeah Well You know, you know right from wrong You know, even at age five, you know right from wrong because, you know, if your parents have taught you right from wrong. Yeah. Well, her parents weren't really that great. No, but I mean, even still fourteen years sorry is not As a minimum is not long enough. Well, yeah Well, one account said that she looked as though she had fainted when the verdict was read sitting slumped as her council handed her a glass of water By the time her previous conveictions were being read out, She was standing and smiling in the dock Another report said she was smiling as she left It was one of those details people just didn't forget Oh Just like vibbe happppy this year didn't give a care in the world No Well, in the public gallery, there were goasps of relief from Katie's family. Her father, Joseph Ratcliffe, raised his arms above his head outside court standing with Kateie's mother Helen and sister Joanne He said, quote I hope she rocks in hell. She should have hung, shouldn't she? thenen he added Obviously, we are very relieved at the verdict, but it doesn't bring Katie back at all It is still a very sad occasion for us It's been a tough five years. We are still, as you can see, grieving people and will remain way for the rest of our lives.es yeah But even with the conviction secured, not every question had gone away detective still wanted to press car about who had been with her that night. and Katie's family remained distressed by the belief that others involved never been caught I say they escapeed justice Yeah, I mean, like, you know, the distance and getting her It does seem like there could have been You know, she coulda had help. But then again It it's a question we just won't never know. Yeah Not likeess Saron says But I mean, she did point out the two boys and they alibied out. And I think that was pretty much. I think that alib, you know, alibi in each other was a very weak situation. Yeah probably should have had a bit more of looking into to leave her. Well, Sharon Carr was first held at Holloway Prison then transferred to Broadmore a high security psychiatric hospital. And then that was in June of nineteen ninety eight Later came Rampton, another high security hospital Then the medium secure orrchard unit Before she was eventually moved back into the prison estate at HMP Bronzefield The pattern across those years was much like the same Transfer assessment. and the continuing view that she needed to be managed in a highly secure condition. Yeah Well, and even inside Broadmore, Sharon Codr did not disappear into some quiet institutional life In two thousand one, a tubloid report said that she had planned to marry another patient. Robbie Lane who had been sent there after killing his mother. Good Lord. No I in love in Broadmore, good God Two had met inside the hospital where allowed supervised recreation together and were said to have made arrangements for the Broadmore Chaplain to marry them in the chapel They had even ye, they had even arranged rings from Argos. Some Argos rings for Jesus. But the wedding was later called off and the rings were said to have been sent back It is the sort of bizarre detail that kept Sharon Car's name in the papers long after conviction. Fucking bizarre, yeah Jesus. Hey honey, you want to get some Argos rings and Get hitched? I mean. Good Lord. Obviously, you know, she They're still going to have Just because they're in Broadmore doesn't mean that they're not going to have like feelings of relationship to be in a relationship and stuff, you know? So I get that b It I think it's just that normality I think it's just it's the normality of it of just like, hey, we're just gonna get married. like they're just two young kids. Hey You know, like You were murderes Yeah in a psychiatric hospital, one of the most secure Come on, this is wild It Bin' belief. Yeah Well, there was also legal attempts to change her position in prison In the early two thousands, there were challenges to her minimum term and efforts to have her murder conviction reduced to manslaughter on diminished responsibility grounds. Those attempts failed Get fucked By February of twenty fifteen. She had been returned to Bronunsfield because she was presenting a risk to patients and staff The warrant stated that she no longer required hospital treatment for a mental disorder or that no effective treatment could be given That same year, she became a restricted status prisoner effectively the female estate equivalent of category A By then, official material described her as having schizoaffective, emotionally unstable personality disorder. and recorded that she had been prescribed antipsychotic medication though she didn't always take it Staff also noted mood changes and periods of paranoid thinking remained in custody long beyond her tariff. She was moved to Low Newton in December of twenty eighteen then returned to Bronunsfield after a violent incident with another prisoner in August of twenty nineteen There were also arguments about what kind of progression work she could access a psychologically informed progression unit had been recommended, but Wh that was not available to her in the way first proposed She was still given outreach work rather than being left in complete deadlocks This is where I go maybe Maudsley, she needs her own little box. There's a lot of people in jail that need their own little box is But yeah. I think I don't think Maudsley need need needed it. No, I don't. Yeah I think, you know, but someone like Car Jesus, she needs to be stuck in that glass box. At every facility she's she's can fighten and hurting people. Just stick her in a box Gade. Yeah Well, attempts to change that possession just kept failing again and again There were challenges to her status, efforts to have her restricted status downgraded and repeated reviews. the same concerns kept resurfacing. Over the years, she assaulted staff and other residents, admitting that at one stage that she wanted to kill another inmate by slitting her throat and on other occasions claimed she believed she was a lizard and cut herself to find out whether she was still human or not In twenty nineteen, official records said that she had disclosed thoughts of murdering another prisoner At one stage she described one to split the woman's head open with a flask and throw her down the stairs to snap her neck. This gl is just Put her in the box. And being a lizzard. I mean, this girl is delusional Yeah. I mean, schizophrenia with likeort like they said, schizoaffective disorder, personality disorder, like bipolar situation. But the risks that I mean, obviously, you know You'reking other people. The other people are in prison for a reason as well. but you know, for them to live have to live side by side with a prisoner like this. It's going to affect their possibility of being rehabilitated and things like that. and just living there in fear of this abolute What is she going to do now? Volatile prisoner. crazy. Well, she also had been involved in an altercation with a woman she had previously been in a relationship with. Official material said the old risk factors had never really gone away difficulty coping with rejection intense attachments to certain people, and disproportionate reactions when those relationships seemed threatened. The official view was that there was still no convincing evidence that her risk, if unlawfully at large has significantly reduced Even with some engagement in education, work, mentoring and psychological intervention Sharon Carr was still being judged too dangerous to be safely let out. Yes N let her out. But through all of that though One thing that never changed L was Katie. However many years had passed, However many hearings came and went, However many institutions Sharon Carr move through Katie Radcliffe remained eighteen years old forever for her family. That was the real aftermath notot prison categories or legal reviews. But a loss. did not move Ease end Well, that was the story of the devil's daughter and Sharon Carr And Katie Radcliffe who should still be here Yeah. I'd say at the top of it, I would just say our thoughts go out to her family and As always, always our thoughts are always with every case, with the victims. family. and their friends this case was absolutely horrific Yeah justust an You couldn't predict it. in a sense, like Yes, you're going to have troubled children and they're going to be naughty and stuff like that But for her to be at twelve years old, a murderer is just beyond anything that I think at the time as well. that the police could ever grasp. Yeah. you know, they're going off from just normal things like, hey it's it's a man. it's, you know, it statistically you know, it statistically Cases like this would make you believe that you know, it was a male that wasas this violent enough to do do stuff like this, this strong enough to do You know, um they of injuries and you know, the forcefulness and the sexualized nature as well. Yeah definitely Yeah, crazy. I just Absolutely horrific case. And then her words in the diary I took some of it out. I was like I'm not reading all this shit. Yeah, I think Oh it's so so phographic and grotesque that you know, obviously we've put in a few of the quotes that she'd wrote in her diaries and things. I just wanted to show like what She thinking was how she was feeling about the whole situation about the murders about the murder. I mean, she wrote a whole lot paragraph about reenacting it in her diary so she could just over and over it again and relive it. And that's another thing of like psyopaths and serial killers, they want to relive that again. Yeah, hence you know, and that's why they take like little things or you know, something specific to what they've done as a proabilia type trophy the bracelet. But You know, she's putting it all into in words And So she can just sort of read it or mean we would read it as a story or you know But she's doing it in order to relive that night over and over just by reading what she does. And she's like sitting how she felt when You can see from the excerpts, pictures of the diary and that. she's drawing the knife. as well as the words Yeah. It's just crazy. Oh, dear. Wow Thank you so very much for listening. if you were able to get through all of that. Yeah. It was absolutely crazy, probablyrobably one of the worst worst ones that we've done so far. Yeah deffinitely. onene of the worst cases we've covered so far just in how horrific and And just crazy that of who it was. Yeah. 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