Assembling the Spider-Man Production Team

If you want to listen to all of the episodes of this series right now, early release and ad free, plus a whole host of extra fan club benefits, head to Museum of pop culture. supportingcast.fm or if that's too much of a mouthful, just click on it in the show notes, which is the description bit. that no one reads Hello and welcome. I am Josh Whittdakam. For today I amm the curator of a place of incredible artifacts and exhibitions, a place that stores the greatest thing on Earth. This is my archive of pop culture. As a self confessed pop culture, obsessive. I love the geniuses, the scam artists and D I set, the absolute madmen. They've made the records shows and films that we love In each series I will tell you a story of unlikely triumph and usually an enjoyably crushing failure, featuring celebrated stars that in any other industry would probably be politely sacked It's a show for people more interested in David Hasselhoff than David Lamy, Elizabeth Taylor, than Queen Elizabeth I, which let's be honest, is all of us Joining me today to discuss one of the most disastrous Broadway musicals ever. Spider Man, Turn offff the Dark is comedian and friend, Suusie Ruffle. There are Broadway musicals that become legends, and then there are Broadway musicals that become infamous and cautionary tales. From the creators of the Lion King and the visionary minds of Bono and the Edge came a musical so ambitious, so expensive, so unbelievably cursed. It made critics beg for an intermission, budget problems, flying accidents preview delays. I could go on, so I will. Six directors, millions over budget, enough backstage panic to power all of Times Square. This wasn't just a musical. It was a catastrophe with merchandise. This is the unbelievable true story of the big budget Broadway musical disaster Spider Man, turn off the dark Suzie Rauffle. Josh Woodakam. Hello. a fan neither of Spider Man nor you two correct a huge fan of musical theatre. Huge fan of musical theatre. Yeah. You were the first person I didn't really understand that musical theatater even existed. What? No, no, no, no, hear me out When you told me you wanted to be when you were teenagageer wanted to be a West end Wendy. Yeah. That was the first time I've ever heard that phrase. Yeah. and I'm pretty cool You. can you explain what you wanted to do I wanted to be in the West End. I did a lot of amateur dramatics I did tap dancing, I did singing lessons. I did All of those things I really wanted to do that. I don't think I have a good enough voice Or I'm a good after. G let's hear it now. At the end of the day, you're another day old. I don't know why it wasn't b So I went into sort of acting, which then became stand up. Do you dream of the West end still At some point, I would love to do a stint in a show. What a show that is? I don't know. Would you have done Spider Man the Musical if you got off of it? As who Friday Can you name anyone else? Mary Jane? Yeah, I was gonna to say Mary Jane, but then I couldn't remember that was her name or ifher that's the name of a pair of Dot Martins I have. I think it's both. It's cannabis, isn't it, Mary Jane as well, I think. Is that why she's called it? It can't be So what we're showing here is we're not experts on spideran from the op. Why are we doing this? Because it's the g Rose girls made a lot more sense. No, right, listen, listen This is one of the great stories You can't start a podcast with why are we doing this? I mean, I think that a lot when I listen to podcasts. Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? Why are we here? Just let some music on. How about if I tell you this? Yeah, It's the most expensive ever production on Broadway. I know that yet. so we don't even need to be doing that. So I just know it's the biggest financial flop in musical history. Yes There was injuries. Yeah. and to give you an idea, how many previews would you expect before a show Oh gosh tenen I suppose. There was one hundred and eighty two previews hundred and four, you must be going. I'm not sure this is. This is working We're in too deep. I might have to ring my agent. Let me take you through it, right? The weird thing is it's one of those things where it just builds, you can't back out. There's too much involved. It's like where people get married to people they don't want to marry. Exactly. ye. You've sent out the invitations. There' people that haven't done enough previews, of course. They should have done more previews You got to do a lot of previews before you get engaged. Yeah, exactly, but it is like that. It is like, imagine the week before your wedding thinking I'm going to make a mistake. There must be lots of people listening right now the week before their wedding.. And I do apologise if this' cutting to you now. Learn from the next four parts because this is what's happening. You will get injured and you're gonna lose millions of pounds. Also on the way in, you're not being slagged off on the way into a wedding by every newspaper in New York saying this is the biggest disaster of all time. Be obviously you didn't see the papers in the lead up to your wedding, did you? No I didn't I I did a couple of offhes. They were a little harsh, but you know, Looking back, they were fair. Stan Lee, let's start, right with Spider Man I just shouted to Stan Lee then. Let's start with Spideran, right You're aware of Stanley So Stanley is the man. behind Spiderm Man. so we're going to start there. I thought it was Peter Parker Here's a duo of names. You've got Peter Park and Spidererman. Yeah. Stanleee was actually called Stan Lieberman, right? He was born december twenty eighth, awful birthday, nineteen twenty two Why iss that terrible birthday? Just after Christmas? Yeah, I suppose. okay. Yeah yeah. I didn't know if something like tragic had happened on that day. Oh, no, no, no, cursed or something. No, no, it's not a cursed birthday. He's cursed by People not wanting to come to his birthday party. Yeah. It's actually I've just realised the birthday of of this parish Tom Crane. So there we go. I've had some nice birthdays with Tom Crane. There you go. He did many jobs, like part time jobs as a kid. One of them was writing obituary for a newspaper He also wrote press releases for the National Tuberculosis Centre. So he was a writer from the off, right? Right, wow. I wonder those two things are they bed fellows? But they do feel like you might be writing for the National Tuberculosis Centre and then also tying up the story. Yeah So he then gets a job in a comic book publishers as a gopher. Do you know what a goher it? It's basically a name for a runner. Yeah, because like go for this, go for that, right Is that what it is? I just assumed that. Yeah know, because you're clever than me Oh so you did read the op ed. Yeah, yeah yeah exactly. Yeah, that's why it's about GeoFER because it's go for this, go for that Yeah, Do you know what? we're both learning. We're both learning. So he was an assistant to a guy called Joe Simon. He said, I did a little of everything. I went down and got people their lunches, I filled the inkells, I did some proofreading, I did some copywriting. I love filling of the inkwells. Me too. It's really romantic, isn't it? The idea of a comic book kind of office where the inkwells are being filled for the artists and stuff. Yeah, I mean it's so much more sort of romantic than Oh, I'm just gonna charge my iPad. Where's my pen that I can write with on my iPad? Yeah, the printer paper's low. Yeah. there is a deep romance to it. I suppose this would have been nineteen thirties in America. Wow, yeah, that it's fun, right I think it is fun Would you have thrived? Well knows Josh, I'm a woman and I'm gay. You've been terrible for me. But you, a white straight man, you've had a great time. I'd have been filling ink wells with the rest of them. So Joe Simon said of Stanner ass a gofot. Mostly we had Stanner raising the pencils off the ink artwork and going out for coffee When he didn't have anything to do, he would sit in a corner of the art department and play his little flute or piccolo That feels annoying. Yeah, it does, does? It feels like if there was a runner O the last leg On the last leg and they started playing the flute in the corner. like Sorry, what the fuck is going on here Funny instrument as well. Like if it was a guitar, you'd go, I mean it's still not great. No. Hate people pulling out a guitar. Yeah, that is b. T twil Brigs. Which instrument would be acceptable? The piano So if he was playing a kind of like in a jazz bar or something in the corner. I think a piano's quite because the piano can be background, but flute feels quite in your face, doesn't it? It does feel very in your face. I'm also imagining sort of jazz flute from Anchoran Yeah. that's why I'm imagining it So what happens, right is after one week in the job He asked for a promotion. The confidence. He said, he deserved a promotion because these are his words, I know everything. Mm Does that remind you of other people you've worked with Yeah You hate Stanley already You know Yeah, yeah, I do. You meet people, don't you So I was talking to someone the other day who works high up in a football team. They were telling me that they'd been looking for another person to work in the club. Yeah. This person is going remain nameless They received some CVs from men. where they wrote about why they were good for the job And most one man did this They listed that they were really good at football manager the game Was it Michael Is skyscraping confidence, Susie. There's not wrong with skyscraping confidence unless you have to I'm going to say it come into contact with it yourself, then it's unbearable Sometimes I look at people and if I had your confidence, I'd be unstoppable. Yes. I also have quite a lot of friends. Yeah ye exactly. And I'm not sure that the twains shall ever meet. Well this is the thing that Stanley will find He does end up in a kind of duo And he's not very good at maintaining that friendship. We'll go through it. So we know some people like that Well we all know some people like that. So Joe Simon, who' his boss, said, one day I made his life He invited teenage Stanley write one of the two page text stories. So the way comic books work in those days is to mail them out, they have to have two pages of pure text, not comic books, a kind of legal thing, right T show that it's a magazine or something. No one reads these. But Stan Leaylight abbsolutely goes for it. And he writes something called Captain America Foils The Traitors's Revenge by Stan Lee And they go, who's Stan Leaks? He's called Stan Lieberman. And he says, I changed it because I felt someday I'd be writing the great American novel and I didn't want to use my real name for these silly little comics You know, I've got a site, I have more Compassion for him now that I know that he's a teenager. Yes, o. We all made mistakes as a teenager. Some of us went in gung Ho, sure. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Not that gung Ho. We didn't say we knew everything after one week. So when Joe Simon and his creative partner Jack Kirby Leave in nineteen forty one A nineteen They make Stanley the editor Can you imagine the artists that have been working there for years That's like you being told that an open spot is taking over from Adam Hills on the last leg and you're still in your seat. Well do you know We can betray He then obviously is secondecond World War, so he goes into the army and he's a member of the Signal Corps where he repairs telegraph poles, other communication equipment that iss a sweet gig, let's be honest. Oh go But his division, this is wild, right It includes To be, none of these have obviously made it at this point. S. Three times Academy Award winning director, Frank Capra. who is a huge director, obviously. New York cartoonist Charles Adams and children's bookwriter and illustrator Theodore Geissel, who you would know as Dr. Zeus. Wow. all in his division Isn't that mad? That's also someone in the American military going These guys are not gonna to be good on the front line. These artsy b fucking nerds are sitting around doing their drawing. The most they can do is climb that tree and put up a telephone pole So But he receives letters every week when he's in the Amy from the editors at the magazine. of what to be written and then and then he writes the stories over the weekend and then sends them back on the Monday. Whilst he's in the army in the Second World War Yeah, well, he's rec reparing telegraph polls, Susie C. Sure, okay. He's basically working for British telecom rather than American arm. So it's quite an exciting time, I suppose. As people would say about World War two, Quite an exciting time World War two. You would definitely be in the We're going put her in the teleraph polls. I'd be straight up a fucking telegraph poll before you know it. And I'm you know what? absolutely delighted to be Yeah, I'd hate to be mistaken for someone who wants to be on the front line for a brave person? I'd hate to be mistaken for a brave person. The problem of war now is obviously there's very there's very little need for wires for telephones. I'd in serious trouble. You might have to learn how to fly a drone or something? Yeah, yeah, that would be what I' be doing. nineteen fifty six, so this is ten years later He's kind of back in the comic book thing, right? The year my mum was born, just to give everyone some content. The year your mum was born Yeahah. So these are major world events. World War two, the year your mum was born. Yeah Juliia Schwartz, the editor at DC Comics, he says, we've got to do something because Anne Ruffle, soon to be named has been born So they do a kind of update of the flash and it revives the superhero genre. Are you into Marvel films, Susan? Not really. I'm a terrible booking for this. No you're not because you'll know about theatre. Once we get to theatre, you're a great. Also, I want to tell you about this because these You are re the thick person in the street, that's who you are Yeah, okay. Is that al right? Our agent has asked you to stop calling me that. Yeah I do think it's a USP. Not many people know about this and that's why it's good to Tal to someone who despises superheroes. I don't despise superheroes. There are some superheroilms I've liked, but I wouldn't say I'm into it. I would say and this might make me unpopular. I'm not into the Marvel films and every time people try to talk to me about superheroes, I do think Gr up However I do like you too And that, I'd say is probably squarer. Potentially I think it's both pretty d. I think you two all come out of this world. We'll see, right? So they decide to revive the superhero genre, right And Lee comes up with this idea, right? whichich is to give his superhero kind of flawed humanity. And this is a kind of new thing, right? Now we take this as kind of normal that superheroes are like You know, they've got a darkness and there's a sadness to them or there's why are they doing this or all that kind of stuff Before this, it was just like these are a super humuman Like hero. Was he the first to do is this before Batman? Look. As far as I know. And before the Incredibles Be that's a great film Yeah, it was just before incredible was. I think that was two thousand one. Right sure. So the first superhero that him and the artist Jack Kirby create The first thing they create is the Fantastic four. M So he co creates the Hulk, Thor, Iron Man, the X Men, Daredevil, Doctor Strange, and then Spider Man. So that he's basically the beatles of people who create superheroes. I mean, to be fair to him, he does know everything. He has done very well. Yeah I wouldn't mind seeing a woman It's like the Mo the Week line up in two thousand eight You know, fair enough. There was women in the X Men, but they are called the X Men, which doesn't help the situation There women in the X men. There was one I used to watch cartoon Yeah, I was gonna to say storm. Played by Hally Berry, I think of the movies. I think she is played by Hally Barry. So they make Spiderm Man, right? Yeah. Stance Lee basically says about it I was under pressure to come up with a new character. I was trying to think of what a new hero could do How do you think he comes up with it He sees a fly crawling on the wall and thought it wouldd be interesting to have a human that could do the same thing That fly doesn't know it That's the most profitable fly who's ever lived. And weird but that didn't come fly the fly. Because I'd say actually being able to fly like a fly 's more interesting than meet a spider. He's taken the fly and made it worse But you've got the web, haven't you? I would say the web is really the thing that Oh, the web is good, isn't it? You need something to hack for it, hang on to Yeah it can go very high up in the air. I don't think this is time for us to repitch Spider manan. I think he did a good job. Do you know what? ye fair?air know is what he's doing. It's a nice back story. He's bit by sppider. sureure. It is a good backstory. Yeahes. So he comes up with the concept. He pitches it to his boss, the Marvel owner, Martin Goodman, who is his cousin also. possibly the reason stands yes, handy, handy exactly H cousin stroke boss says, Stan, that iss the worst idea I've ever heard Bet Christmas was awkward after that? Oh yeah. Teenagers are sidekicks, not stars. Spied as are gross. thoseose are his reasons I've always said that I think teenagers are gross as well. Yeah. The whole thing's gross But begrudgingly gives him the go ahead for an eleven page story in a comic called Amazing Fantasy The reason is he's planning on cancelling this comic. he doesn't give a shit. But let me guess. Does Spidey really turn things around? Wow. Is the cousin about to order some humble pie Well, not quite. amazing fantasy that it doesn't come back in that, but basically he does it and it's such a success. that Spidey comes back seven months later. with his own magazine. So he works with an artist called Steve Ditcoo and what I like about this is like His name is Dick in it. It's his name as Dick inet. That's what I like I'm base. No' D's Dit coo. but why do we call him Steve Dicko Beo. Well, that might be what Stanley does because they've got a really, it's a Lennon and McCartney, you know, the classic two people who work together who don't get on And get on and they love each other and they hate each other and it's a creative kind of disaster. Yeah. You know what we're talking about? Yeah, I'm talking me and you on tooour. Yeah, yeah exactly Deave Dito is a not a hack, that's the wrong word, but you know, he's a job for hire, drawer for hire, artist, even not drawer. That's a pretty cool gig. Well, he's not because there's no guaranteed contracts, there's no health insurance and Marvel retain the copyright to all your characters. So you're basically I more meant, I'd just like to be able to draw All right, o. that's a cool gig. I think you could learn to draw I'm really bad at drawing This isn't for you, right? So And it's not about me. Do go on, please tell me about Dico. He draws the full scripts, right? This is different to other comic book companies. The way Marvel does it His L does what's called the Marvel method where he comes up with an idea for an issue maybe a paragraph long. And then he gives it to the penciler who draws the issue, paces the story, fills in the detail and the plot points, and then Lee adds the dialogue and the narration Dicko's not a rich man. So he pushes for credit. Yeah, fair play, I reckon. Yeah, yout, Dicker. And Lee replies by publicly mocking him Dico takes more control plotting the issue eighteen of the amazing Spider Man and Lee promotes it in the letters pages of other by saying a lot of readers are sure to hate it. So if you want to know what all the criticism is about, be sure to buy a copy Oh no. It's grim, isn't it? I mean, clever because everyone's gonna buy a copy. Everyone's gonna to buy a copy, but then two issues later on the first page the amazing spider man. A writ, Many readers have asked why Stan's name is always the first in the credits. So big hearted Lee agreed to put Stevie's name first this time. How about that And in the credits, Dick Co's name is listed first and then Lee's name is twice as big Not good practice, is it? No. It's not ideal. Also, if Steve had been like, I'm not doing it anymore. Well this does happen. Oh Issue twenty five. He agrees to list Steve as the plotter, like plotting it. and he credits him as scowling Steve And then in nineteen sixty five, he hands in his final pages at Marvel Dick, how he can't deal with it. He doesn't come back until nineteen seventy nine. Marvel', like Editon Chief said, Steve is the kind of person who would starve rather than violate his principles. basasically. Oh God, imagine that Neither of us Oh no, I'm quite principled. you're not. I am. I think at the moment you got close to starving, Susie, you'd be drawing an iron man you didn't care about becausecauseuse what happened during Stint on Ironman, he refuses to draw a picture of the hero drunk He turns her down a Batman script because it's supernatural and he doesn't believe it should be And he rejects high paying assignments because they go against his values. Oh no. I mean my values, I've only got a few of them. Youve got one or two, but you would die for them. Yeah, exactly. But you know, I wouldn't mind doing a bit of witchcraft or whatever people wanted me to do. I thought it was gonna help. I draw ronman drunk. Yeah, how much you pay me? I couldn't give a fuck. I'll do it for free Yeah, exactly. So they don't see each other from nineteen sixty five, right until nineteen ninety two, Stanley and Dico, right? when they have a meeting at Marvel's office in New York. Dick has been freelancing for Marvel for years and Lee's been working on our idea. a Binman superhero from the future Oh my go Sound good? Is that that Bin face guy? What Count Bin face? Yeah. I don't know if it is Count Bin Face So the editor in chief, Tom Defalco thinks maybe this is a chance to get them back together, right? And so the nineties are a bad time for Dicko. He's walking around with taped up shoes But he drew the original Spider Man. Yeah. Oh, come on Yeah. And so they have this meeting It lasts half an hour Stan jumps up and embracace Steve as soon as he enters the room and they're very happy to see each other Steve explains that he doesn't want to work on such a character with Stan Stan Ges for broke and asks if hed want to do a Spiderm Man graphic novel with him, telling him it would be a big hit. I think of all the money they would make, Dickcoo declines saying he could never care for the character like he once did But you know what? I think Dick Hoe is part of the problem I had a lot of sympathy for Dipppo and his shoes aren't together. He's his own worst enemy. He's on a fucking plate. You could buy a pair of shoes here, mate And at this point is Stanley enormously wealthy. Presumablyah. She must be. And so credit continues to cause problems in the nineteen ninety eight issue of time Stanleee' credited as the Spiderm Man creator in nineteen ninety eight issue of comic book Marketplace. He claims he came up with an idea for one of Dickcoo's most iconic scenes and Dicko writes letters to the magazines complaining Lee then responds with an open letter, saying he always considered Steve Dick Code to be Spider Man's co creator. What does Steve Dickcoode take offence to there Not calling him Steven. I don't know. he's got a real chip on his shoulder by this point, hasn't he? Considered. He doesn't like the word considered. That's semantics. comeome on, Steve. He is his own worst enemy is Steve, isn't he? Yeah. The life he could have had. The life he could have had. Steve dies in twenty eighteen. hisis bodyies discovered in an apartment. At the age of ninety, yeah. Yeah, that's abadoning. And when they go and clear his belongings from his office, the door is jammed shut because of hundreds of un red letters from friends and fans delivered in the month that his body hadn't been discovered. And his apartments's got clipped articles out from over decades all about Spider Man. It's quite heartbreaking, isn't it? Yeah, I feel very sad about Steve Dico And then Just like four months later, five months later, Stan Lee dies in Los Angeles So they both die in the same year. They kind of live this parallel life of you know, what success can do to you and what it in both senses, if you know what I mean Yeah, it's really sad But that's, you know, the heartstrings I try and pull on, Susie. I know you're an empath. Oh, anyone that refers to themselves as an empath is a psychopath. Come on, we're both a few people that go. I'm a real Epath and you go, you are one of the worst people I've ever met That's what I me I just think it's as you were saying before, about Leondon McCarney It happens so frequently, doesn't it? when you know like teenage boy that would have dreamt of these things in his room. And then it all just gets so sad. because he doesn't fate. you can't control it. Once The thing starts, you've lost control of it And you've always had control when it was your dream, do you know what I mean? I mean, now we're getting deep. Episode one as well. Get deep. get deep. I think that success never fills you up in the way that you think it's going Exactly. it doesn. So you think, oh once I get to that thing, Yeah, I won't feel these things about myself. I'll feel really happy and content and and I won't worry about these things that I've always worried about You know, you have the biggest comic book in the world and still If you're worried that success might feel hollow, don't worry. the Spider Man Musical doesn't fall into that trap Thank God The box office to Broadway thing has become a big thing, right in the twenty first century So Spider Man is a big film, two thousand two directed by Sam Rami, Huge box office success. And is that Toby McGuire, the first one? Yeah, and it feels inevitable that Spider Man would just clean up. has a history of going wrong Are you aware of the Lord of the Rings Musical? Yes. Did you go? No, but I know that it was at the big theatre, Jurry Lane. Yes. And they had a stage that went into is it Mordor? I'm not really into it the Rs. Yeah yeah. but they I think the stage just sort of never worked. Yeah. So people would stand there being like, and nothing would happen. Well, let me tell you right, it's wild. So obviously the film is mad, so big, it takes eight hundred eighty seven million dollars at the box office Have you seen the clip, sorry, just very briefly, Have you seen the clip that someone has put together of all the words that a woman says in Lord of the Rings? No It's live T again. M It's It's honestly, I hate to say this, but when I went to the First Lord of the Rings I was like, how is that the end? They just walked some more I just presumed it was carrying on. Anyway, let's not get into Lord of the Rings. It' sorry, it's not for us. The show is staged in two thousand six, right? It's got sixty five strong company of actors, musicians and dancers It's got a three and a half hour running time with two intervals. No, no, no, no No, no, no. See, I told you, as soon as we get on the theatre, you've got opinions A big ones. seeventeen million pound budget, right So it starts in Canada, right? Should have stayed there. Basically, it should have, because one point seven million is put in by the Ontario government because they were like, we could land this. This could be huge for us, right They're hoping it's going to attract visitors to area with a nine month run because obviously all the Lord of the Rings Nuts are going to come for it, right? Yeahep. And also they're trying to counter the reputation Toronto's recently acquired as a hotbed for SARS. So they feel this will really turn around. Yeah, okay It doesn't feel the first thing you'd do. No, it doesn't. We We've got Sars, but we've also got the Lord of the Rings musical. But have you seen these feet with hair on? Yeah, exact that's not from the Sars, that's costume. So the show closes after less than six months The Toronto Stars reviewer, I good describes it as Bard of the Rings. Oh yeah, that's really nice. Yeah. The telegraphs Charles Sser sh It should come with an elf warning. People are having real fun with this. What newspapers more fun then, maybe. That's the telegraph as well In the telegraph review, it says one lives in constant dread of a nasty outbreak of Morris dancing. Yeah. The songs are described as anyere at the ash Ram There's songs with lyrics in Elvish. So people can't even understand them because it's written in Elvish. And there were some people there that are like I actually do speak Elvish? Yeah, of course there are. There kind of people that say things like a a lady? Yeah, exactly, exactly. You know those guys? Yeah. I know those guys. And they're willing to go through the Sars to go and watch the Lord of the Rings. Yeah. They get to London. The ruim is hacked It down to three hours. Still too long. far too long. Is twelve point five million pounds the most expensive show ever in the West End So that includes eighty people in the backstage crew eighty over four months of rebuilding the there for it to accommodate the stage's three revolves and its hydraulic lifts. Wait a minute, so that means that the theatre would have been closed in that time as well. For four months. That's insane. Yeah. Did you see frozen there? No It was very good. Anyway, Carry on. Is that we had The staging was amazing. It was really amazing. Does it have all those kind of lifts and all that kind of stuff? No, not really. The most impressive thing is when her dress changes. like so quick, like in less than a second Yeah and let it go. And that's really amazing. And then it sort of makes it look like ice goes all around the theatre. That's very clever. I mean, I think part of theatre is using your imagination I don't need hydraulics and a revoive. For the four months that it was closed, you could use your imagination to imagine what theatre was That's the way you do it. Imagine how good a play and that could be. So frequently this happens though, that when Charlie in the chocolate Factory was in the West End Routinely the elevator wouldn't work Yeah, exactly. So they speent eleven weeks in rehearsal pllus six weeks in previews. Six weeks. Six weeks in previews, right? And then they basically they're in the headlines because an actor gets his leg caught in the set machinery. So the audience watched. They watched. Yeah, this is during the show So he's basically got his leg caught Adam Salter and he's shouting, my leg, my leg. he's helped by other cast members and rushed to hospital. That's not good Honestly, Susie If you think that's bad, you wait for S Spider Man musical. It is Absolute carnage. These are just the amused booche before the main course here. He gets four stars in the Guardian, right? although they do say it's not a show for connoisseurs of acting Oh, it gets one star in the evening standard. People said it couldn't be done and they were right. It's what the evening standards say. and it closes after thirteen months. But get this, it gets five Olivier nominations. So it's a kind of Honestly, compared to Spider Man, that's a hit It's a mega hit. I mean, it thirteen months, obbviously that's not long considering how much they spent on it and I'm sure they thought this is like a four year thing. Yeah It's not like it opened and closed. No, exactly. So if you want one of them from film to stage, carry the musical.. Oh yeah. Are you aware of it? reading about this? Yeah. yeah, it didn't do great, did it? No, so it was in the late eighties, nineteen eighty eight in Stratford upon Avver, the home of the Bard, of course. It's what he would wanted.'s what he wanted Hse is what you would have wanted. There's a pig's blood scene in Carry, Have you seen the film Yeah, where they chuck blood all over her, right? Can you think of the problems with throwing blood all over the stage, fake blood? eople slipping? Yeah. And the other problem, she's got a mic on her which's invariable will obviously stop working. It shorts out when it's drenched with blood So they replaced that scene with Chris and Billy running up the stage and dumbering a small cup of blood on her head Oh, that's so naf. It's so naf, isn't it? So Barbara Cook, who plays Carrie's Mother, resigns on the opening night. Archie's almost decapitated by a staircase. And the crew, they bring it to Broadway. eight million dollars, the show opens twenty eighth of April The curtain callers met with Claws and booe. imagine booe. It officially opens on may the twelfth It officially closes on may the fifteenth. No! Three days onder who played Carrie? Well, I don't think she wants you to know. No, probably not. I think that's very far down the sea, because she only did it for four days officially. Isn't that brutal? That's so brutal So it's from this that Marvel's licensing department des Spider Man's going to be the one. But there are musicals that have done it. Of course, I'm just picking out bad examples for fun. No, of course, of course, but you can see why people would go, o, this might work There's a mean girl musical and the legally blonde one's very good. Well Harry Potter. That's not a musical, is it? No, it's a play. That's a big franchise constructed for theatre with a new story. Yeah, it works. You know, it's probably difficult to stage because you go, how are you gonna to do the Yeah, the m cover in it. Yeah. There's lots of stuff in it where you go That could easily be a disaster. It can easily work Luckily for us on this occasion couldn't go worse So Marvel meet a man called Tony Adams, not the footballer, right And he is a producer from Ireland, right? At twenty two, he co produced the Return of the Pink Panther. He worked for Endermol And I know what a night, which became Jersey Boys, right? In two thousand one As he approaches fifty, he forms a company called Hello Productions his aim is to bring popular culture to the stage startarting with Star Trek forever He's very charming D you just made a face there that how did Star Trek forever go I think forever is probably not the keyword Do you know what? I'll tell you about Star Trek forever in our bonus episode, Susy. Okay, fine, Tony, he's charming. despite them having no production credits, Hello Entertertainment He's given the stage rights to the Spiderm Man the musical. We've got Stanleee here saying, Do you know what? Don't worry, I know everything. So he contacts an acquaintance who's Paul McGinnness who they met when they were both working on the film Deliverance, but Paul has then gone on to find and manage you two for their whole career, right? Wow. So Paul is like the mega manager of you two. He's managed to take them from a kind of Irish post punk band to being stadium fillers And also managed to keep it all together the whole way. So he's an incredible manager, right? It's still the original lineup, isn't it? It's the original lineup, they all get on like it That's very rare. It's very rare. You've gott to give a lot of credit to Paul McGinnness there. We will go into him because he does do some amazing things, right? So Tony, encouraged by Paul McGinnness, right They go and talk to Bono and the Edge. It isn't actually the whole of you two, it's Bono and Edge, but really, you know. They're the only two that I know. Well, there's Larry Mullin Junir, who's the drummer And there's Adam Clayton, who's the base player, who's an incredible shager back in the day. Oh an act of fam Did Naomi Campbell That's cool. I think there's a quote later where they ask Paul McGinnness. If he's the fifth member of you too. And he said, no, Adam Clayton's dick is the fifth member of too. Oh my Godd. What a life. So when they get home, they receive a fax not only saying that you two are on board or Bonno in the edge But they're gonna ask their neighbor, the filmmaker, Neil Jordan to write the script And he's done interview of the Vampire, the Crye Game and End of the Affair. So it's basically all these kind of Irish people that know each other, just one after the other bringing the that? Oh, I'll tell you who will write it. My neighbor. Tnt tellil you're right at my neighbor in Victoria Park, he runs a Turkish restaurant. It's quite a weird decision, but I'm gonna to ask him So he then is friends with a composer, right Elliot Goldenhal, right? So it as all kind of everyone knows each other. And Elliot is going out with Judy Taymor, who is the woman behind one of the great hits of the stage. The lion King Wow. So it's one of the most successful musical ever. She's the first woman to ever win bestest director of a musical, right? That's amazing. Okay. And she's a kind of incredible woman, Judy Taymor, who gets slightly As does everyone in this story gets destroyed by this hole kind of disaster of the Spider Man musical So they approached Julie She's hesitant about getting involved because she doesn't really think a musicical about Spider Man's fun. She's incredibly Creative and artistically visioned, Julie Tayamor. She's a Steve Dito. She's that kind of level of creative My vision or nothing, right? Well, have you seen the Lion King Musical? No. It's astonishing. Well there's load of She's obsessed with masks and stuff, right? So we'll find out more about her later She's incredible, right? And so she doesn't really want to do it, but then she reads a load of comic books and then she finds this character called Arachne who's like originally from kind of Greek mythology And when she loses a tapestry battle with the goddess, Athena, she tries to hang herself by one of the threads, but Athena does not allow this and instead turns her into the world's first spider You know when you go, this is going to be the problem the whole way B you're interested in Julie is this Greek mythology And we're trying to turn a Marvel comic into a musical. And I would say I'm not interested in either of those as someone that loves musical theatre. I've never gone to a musical and I thought, I wish this was more Marvelly or thought God, I wish there was more Greek mythology in this. Yeah yeah, exactly. So just to refresh They get Paul McGinness, the manager of You two, who gets you two, who get enabled Neil Jordan to write it because he's a film writer and he gets his mate's wife to direct it, right? Yeahep. And then Neil delivers his twenty two page treatment to Julie Julie doesn't like the script No shit and Julian Tony Sack Neil. S Neil before A He's like guy. He must be laughing now though must Oh he must be loving it So that is a great start, right In the next part, we're gonna find out Julie basically brings in a co writer with very few credits And then the casting starts to go wrong and the theater starts to go wrong and the technical problems begin and everything starts to go to absolute shit. That is in the next episode Fan Club members you can listen to that now if you're not a fan Club member, listen to it in a few days when it comes out, we will see you then. I can't wait to see you Oh me too. poor old Julie Well, she's just sacked her mate, who got her the job. Oh yeah, that's tr. Oh, come on Jules