Legacy of the Spider Man Musical

Hello and welcome. I am Josh Whittakham. For today I am the curator of a place of incredible artifacts and exhibitions, a place that stores the greatest thing on Earth. This is my archive of pop culture . Regret and despair betrayal fitting and feeling betrayal long ing in necessity in the shadow , in the shadowland to the dark So at this stage, Susie, welcome back to Spider Man, turn off the dark. It's actually Suzy. Sorry, that made me sound like welcome back to Spider Man. Hello, I'm Spider Man . Well, they'd got through so many actors that it had got to you. That's how it had worked. Can you imagine how many they had got through to go? Susie Bruffle? Is she willing to do the big jump? I don't know whether she'd be willing to flip back on to a forty five degree . Probably not. I suppose we haven't really talked about where this we're saying this is the biggest flop in Broadway history. I think we should give it some context with a few of the others on the podium . There's Via Galactica from nineteen seventy two was considered one of the biggest broadway flops . So it was basically the story of a bunch of social outcasts living on an asteroid in outer space in the year twenty nine seventy two, so a thousand years later. Remember it? No, I don't. Sounds good. If you just give mus icals their plot line, they all sound quite shit. That's true of so many things, isn't it? That you can just kind of reduce it to describing it very simply and it sounds shit. Yeah. I would say in this case, right ? It also was shit. It also was sh oe the plot so incomprehensible that at the last moment the producers put a plot synopsis into the program to help people out . You got a theatre, you don't have to do reading as well. Even then, audiences remained baffled by what was going on stage. It still didn't make sense to them, and it closed after fifteen previews and seven performances. Wow. Imagine that moment when you go, Shall we put the plot? Also, you don't want it to be necessary to buy the program. No. That is a thing that you do if you're feeling a bit flush or you want to remember a big night. Yeah, it's an easy sell if you don't buy this program you're not going to understand the next hour and a half of your life Another one was Breakfast at Tiffany's, which was just five years after the Audrey Hepburn film and it was nineteen sixty six , it didn't ever officially open. Oh really? So it lasted four previews and then the producer David Merrick just said you know what's over? And he put an ad in the Financial Times to announce that he had charitably decided to shut the production down, saying Rather than subject the drama critics and publics to an excruciatingly boring evening. Oh , do you think those things are so unsalvageable? I don't know. I think it's a pretty boring film. What's it about? Some woman she looks at their cat. Look at the cat's called cat. The cat's called cat. Yeah, it hasn't stop longp ined the memory. Well, they gave up after four. It's also quite brutal on the writer and the director and the actors for the producer to go, Do you know what? I'm gonna put an advert out saying this is so shit no, one could ever see it . But I suppose it is his money. Yeah . One of my favorite ones is The Moose Murders , which did thirteen previews and then one performance. That's almost worse than none, isn't it? Yeah, I think so because it means that the critics have been . At least when the critics haven't been, you can say to your friends and family , do you know what? I thought there was loads of people would have enjoyed about it. It wasn't perfect . Yeah, exactly. So the show was written by Arthur Bicknell, right? And he was quite a big deal in the eighties. People were reviewing him saying he's the next Arthur Miller. He's a big deal. A kind of one to watch. H'eres a big deal . They get someone in direct called John Roach and this is the first mistake I think is that he is married to a Texan oil heiress named Lily Robertson and he casts her in one of the lead roles. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think that's gonna be a bit of an issue at some point. It happens in succession a bit, doesn't it? Have you seen succession? Yeah. The brother, the fourth sibling his wife uses the money to put on a play and I wondered whether it was inspired by this because so she is the director's heiress wife and it's basically it's one of those family shares a lodge in a woods, upstate, people are being killed one by one. It's a classic murder mystery, cast members trying to figure it out. And also there's a moose that eats people. That's an extra detail, right? I think that would have been fine without the moose. You know what? The moose muddied the water for me. If it's a who done it, I'm in. Good for it if you're judging a pudding. I think that would have been fine without the moose as well. I think. I feel like a moose rarely brings something to the table. Yeah, I, do. I do So basically they're struggling to cast it. So they try and get this woman called Eve Arden who's like a golden age of Hollywood, known for Mildred Pierce, right? And she had quite a lot of rules and one of them was that they were not allowed to mention anything she'd done prior to Mildred Pierce. Oh wow. Isn't that weird? And her age is an absolute taboo as well. And you can't mention that she was one of the Ziegfried Ziegfeld Folly. I don't know what these are. I wouldn't have been able to mention it anyway. What are they? She was Ziegfeld Folly's Folly? Yeah. I think that's a dancer. Right, you weren't allowed to mention that either. So she had a string of rules that weren't. And then on the night of the first preview she takes the stage, the audience bursts into applause and she loses her place because she's old and her mind is slightly deserting her. Oh and then there's also extra things like there's real water raining down on the set to create a storm and that drowns out the actors' voices so no one can hear it. I do always find that very impressive though when it rains on stage. I did. I saw Murder in Mind with Sheridan Smith and Roman. Yeah me too. And I was very impressed by the whole thing, but also the rain did I was like, wow. Yeah, it's very good, isn't it? And then in the final scene, she's meant to pull two poisoned cocktails and then like tip hers away and say to you, gay dearest, my last remaining child, a special vodka martini with a twist and toss those over the shoulder instead of drinking it. Instead of doing that, she just pours her own out in front of her so that the other person can see , meaning the whole scene is completely incomprehens incomprehensible. What a word to mess up . And that was her only performance in the Moose Murders. She amicably withdrew due to artistic differences after that one performance. It was the artistic differences that the director wanted her to do the lines and the stage directions. Exactly . She didn't she didn't know the lines, she didn't know the stage directions . So then they bring in Joan Copeland who allegedly bit the casting director and she'd been to watch the performance, right? She bit 's Broadway, Susie. This is how it works. Yeah. She goes to watch Arden's performance to try and get the backup. It's so bad she sneaks out the theatre midshow. So then they get someone called and this is a great name. Holland Taylor took . Is that Holland Taylor? It is, yes, that's much better. I don't know. I've not put a space there. Why have I put that? Do you know Holland Taylor? Yeah, Holland Taylor. She's in a relationship with Sarah Paulsland and she is like a really celebrated theatre actress. So Holland Taylor takes the part, right? Yep . During one preview, she delivers the final laughline, which is already to quote, rather mediocre and the lights fail to go to blackout, and the curtain stays up and they say I don't know whether it was the gods conspiring to humiliate us completely or whether some statehand decided to punish us for all of our folly. The rest of the car started scattering to the wings. This is what she says. Like rats from a sinking ship and I put my hands out and screamed at them, get back here. We all had to line up and face our curtain call with bravery. Oh , I do love that. It makes you cringe though, doesn't it? I would have been absolutely scattering for the wings in that situation. Yeah , absolutely. You have scattered? You were quick to say that I'd have scattered, I noticed. Yeah, I was, but I know you very well . Yeah, probably I would have been I would have had to come back on my tail between my legs. Yeah, I'd be a real sheep in that scenario. What the majority were doing, that's what I'd do. Well, exactly, yeah. And so the opening night, Bignal says who wrote it, right ? To me it went okay for the first time I'm sitting in the third row rather than the back. Holland is really good . Everyone's laughing. We're having a good time. I'm thinking maybe , maybe, maybe . And then here's a quote. I don't think there's ever been a show in the history of Broadway where you took a bow to silence . Oh can you imagine? I'd rather not. He reminds me of when Matthew Crosby, who does this show, went to see Mr. Tumble and he said it was brilliant and then Mr. Tumble finishes and he really does a kind of theatrical kind of pointing at the text and like thanking and all that. But obviously it's parents and kids. Everyone is just going Mr. Tumble's taking his moment. That's hot . So that's the level that Spider Man is competing with sur roadway shite and Spider Man starts. So the main issue as we've discussed is the plot because there is no good end to the second half. The second half makes no sense. They still haven't come up with an end. They're still in this situation. They've got different views on how to fix it, but it needs to be fixed . And basically everyone's got a different view to Julie and Julie almost walks over this. She should have walked such a long time ago. Get out of there girl. Yeah, you've got lionking. Almost getting out is more artistic integrity, isn't it than staying in? Yeah, going, you know what? It's not what I want it to be and so I'm out. Yeah, is that what you're saying about this? Yeah . So Michael Cole, the promoter, he announces that the show would now move back again , officially to open on march fifteent h rather than february seventh. They just keep pushing it back, keep pushing it back five weeks of rehearsal. And then the reviewers, more than twelve of them, right, including the guy from the New York Times decide that this is too much. They can't bear it anymore. They're not going to wait until march fifteenth . And so they stay wedded to the idea that the opening night is february seventh and they all book tickets for Saturday, the fifth of february with a view to publishing a review on the eighth of february if it's open. So they're just gonna review the previews. They've lost their patience. Yeah, I suppose if it is previewing. But also the other side of the coin is it's just a story now, isn't it? It's just a funny news story now. They're just reporting on they're not offering a review. Well, I think as well if people are paying just to watch it. Yeah , ye.ah Like I would hate to be reviewed, you know, in a room above a pub when people have paid a fiber to watch me pad through a show. Damn that . I don't have kittens come and see me on tour. So what can I say? No, they're allowed to come. They just have to buy their own tickets. Do you refuse critics on tour? I just don't like that the only person that gets a free ticket for the show other than someone that has like won a charity ticket or someone that's a friend. Which is the greatest charity ticket of all , which can slag me off in the press. Yeah, so Susie. So Josh. The reviewers decide to go for it and they absolutely destroy it. They say what you're watching is the stem cells of a protein, imagination dividing and dividing and dividing right out of control. The result is savage and deeply confusing. A boiling cancer scape of living pain. That's New York Magazine. Can I review that review because I think overwritten? I would say that critic is desperate to be a writer. Spiderman is not only the most expensive musical ever to hit Broadway, it may also rank as the worst. That's the New York Times. Sure. And one of them says it should never open and just be built and rebuilt and overbuilt forever and a living monument to itself, which I do quite like as an idea. It's taking so long that two parody shows open in New York. The Spidey Project on march fourteenth and Spider Man with two ends opens on march thirteenth . So they're both opening the two days before it's actually due to open. That's very funny. By this point, you haven't got a hope no. So they have a big showdown meeting about the plot. Oh my god, how is the plot not secure by this point? They've done a thousand previews . The pressure should be down from like before auditions It's so mad, isn't it? It's so mad. Is this a sign of people having too much money to invest in things and people being given too much rope? I think it might be. You know how an apprentice task is unachievable . I'd say the apprentice tasks are set up to fail. You can't really do those . And then you look like an idiot. It feels like one of those things where you're like, this is an impossible task and then you add in so many strong personalities and you add in so much kind of technical disaster. It's just everything that can go wrong does go wrong, but how do you walk away from it? I don't know because it's not like it's good and they can't stop tinkering. No, they were. It's not one of those albums that bands do where they've gone into a deep drug hole and they can't ever finish it. It's not like we're never going to finish this because it's us. It's like the project is bad . I think that the problem started when someone suggested doing a musical about a character who famously has his mouth covered. I think there's an argument for that. I think there really it's an argument for that. That's what allows them to do all these such brilliantly successful stunts. Of course, which we couldn't do without. So they meet up the big showdown meeting and they' s this idea to this change of the structure of the show called Plan X that Glen's on board with and they're like trying to do it behind the back of Julie and there's all this kind of political kind of manoeuvring and then Glen's woken at three AM by Julie calling to tell him that he doesn't have a soul because she just read the original email that he sent about Plan X and it's just this absolute shit storm, right? This is all in a book Glen's written about the whole thing, which is absolutely superb. Of course . Like Glen's written a whole book about his experience on it that is wild . So she unleashes on him, not just about the show, but like personal and that is the last time that they properly speak. And the next day she's fired , which leaves just Glen who has to rewrite the show. Oh God, she should have walked, shouldn't she? Yeah , yeah, she really should have. That night, Michael Cohn, the promoter and bono in the Edge, tell the cast that Julie's taking leave of absence and they've been new creative consultant and the show is now pushed back by month, Susie to June. Oh my god. And Julie is someone says, she's hell bent on revenge and if she's forced to go, she'll take her script with her. I mean, I'm not sure if that's the end of the world. By this point, you're just like, the whole thing is just so fucked. It's mad, isn't it? Yeah. They bring in a new director . What a job to take on. I mean, they must be desperate for work. Phil McKinley noticing your first choice director, are you come on ? You're not although it is a free shot for them because they can't, if you save it, you're a hero. They're just a stress . So they do a huge overhaul of the show . They lose songs, characters, they change things around. The geek chorus gets cut now, Julie's not there because she was really the only person that liked it. Yeah. Oh, that's tough on those actors. They then compete in character deepening dialogue , saves five hundred thousand dollars a year in salaries , but really are they going to last a year ? Their stage is used for a better speaker . And then they put in all these big changes to the show. There's a new choreographer called Chase Brock, great name. At that point, his main thing was that he'd created the moves for a Broadway themed Wii video game . So he's the choreographer now and he's combined with a dance troupe that have only been going for five years By the end of March one of the dance captains reveals that the Insywinty Spider Hand moves have been incorporated into one of the sequences . By the end of March to April, actors are learning new lines in the morning , rehearsing the new lines in the afternoon and then performing the old lines in the evening because they can't put the stuff out yet, it's not ready so they have to put something out. So people are watching an old version of the show . Basically people some people describe the new version, Phil's version as theme park entertainment. It's not great, but this is the first time Marvel say You've given us the show we've always wanted. Oh, it was a combination of Marvel and Julie. They were never going to work. It was never going to work. So the show re opens at the first preview , the loom doesn't open , but the final Spider Man and Green Goblin fight wows the audience. And there is, get this, a standing ovation. It's a bigger and better response than the first version ever received. Okay, sorry, I'm wrong about the new director. I take it all back. And the first reviews come in. The Kansas City Stars the creators pursue serious artistic ambitions or dishing up spectacle designed to get the same sort of response. If you woke up one morning and saw a mastodon grazing in your backyard, the show included some of the most effective songs I've ever accounted on a rock musical. And then there's a new ad camp aign with the tagline reimagined new story , new music. Different show. Different show. Same spidy. And then Bono and the Edge perform an updated version of one of the songs Rise Above and the finale of American Idol, which is watched by twenty nine point three million viewers and the singles released that night. I mean it only goes to number seventy four, but even so maybe, maybe, just maybe this is going to happen . So in the buildup to opening night, Bono and the Edge are on tour in California. Bonno calls Julie for an hour long chat, right? And it's to quote the longest and most civil chat since the chill days of February and he asked her to come to the opening night. A bad move, I'd say from Bono . I know he's a nice guy. He's done some good stuff, but Bonno I think if Julie's getting annoyed that people haven't mentioned that she made some suggestions about a puppet in the Lion King when she's credited as the director , she is not going to take well to her story being utter ly butchered changed, the geek chorus being lost. Bono, you have to know who you're dealing with. Michael's open to it as well, but then the next day the stage directors and choreographers society file an arbitration claim on behalf of Julie to recover two hundred thousand dollars in royalty payments the producers owed her, allegedly, your friend of mine. So that's three days before opening night. She's just been invited and then she files an arbitration claim against them. I think two hundred grand when they've lost that much, I mean who cares, right? They've lost so much money. So now they're hoping she stays in Mexico , where she is . But then she watches the Tony Awards while she's in Mexico. Book of Mormon wins nine awards and Neil Patrick Harris does a bit where he makes as many turn off the dark gags as he can in thirty seconds . And they mentioned it I think, in the opening number there's like a spidey that in the opening number of the Tony's I think that yes. Oh do they? A spidey sort of swings across the stage. Oh well there we go but they sing a song at the Tony's if the world should end and that reignites you're not going to believe this Julie's love for the show. Oh my gosh. She calls her assistant and says she's going to the opening night. It's painful, isn't it? Yeah, it really is. So her assistant is called Jules, which doesn't help the confusion, texts the team and Michael replies in capital letters No, she won't be attending and says that if Julie does turn up leg,al action will ensue. So she lands in New York. Oh my gosh, this room will not take no . Has her hair and makeup done? Reserved a car and she gets Jules to reserve two tickets the to opening night. Michaels predicted that move and released the tickets . So there's a red carpet, there's cameras, there's an open top bus tour, dressing rooms filled with all the usual opening night gifts. Good gifts actually. A light switch that says turn off the dark turn on the dark written above it. Love it. That's quite nice. And also over the original opening night date of december twenty first, there's multiple pieces of corrective tape with the different dates of the opening night. Good. Own it. And then she goes to watch it and after all the bows at the end of the performance, Phil, the director grabs the microphone and he thanks Julie and she gets up on stage and she hugs Michael Cole and kisses Bono in the Edge . Is that a nice turnaround or is that a terrible ending? But is that the end of the story? It's like concerned because that sounds like a hit. The reviews are mixed. A spectacular for the ages to an imbecilic entertainment for nap loving preschoolers Sure . The day after the opening, the show receives four hundred thousand dollars in sales. That's not going to cover the twenty million is it? Three times as much as the daily box office before june fourteenth . And then Susie, it breaks the record for the highest single weekly gross of any Broadway show in the final week of twenty eleven, taking over two point nine million dollars . Wow. And then in november twenty thirteen , three years after its first preview, it is still running. So we thought I thought it was an opening close. This is the myth, right? Yeah. And then get this, Turn Off the Dark reaches its one millionth audience member mark faster than any show in Broadway history . How ? How's it doing bigger numbers than the Book of Mormon? It must be the size of the theatre . But and here we go. But the costs are so high the show's not making a great profit . And then something happens. After the interval on the fifteenth of august twenty thirteen , act two begins and the pit lift comes up to reveal the green goblin with his transformer machine and a handful of bound and blindfolded scientists. twenty three year old Daniel Curry is a dancer, who's done many parts since joining the cast in twenty ten three years earlier. He's one of the scientists on the hydraulic lift. His right foot gets caught in the lift and the stage floor and to prevent further damage by moving the lift anymore, a privacy screen is brought on stage as they try and free him and it ends his dancing career. Like that's the end of his career. That's terrible. Isn't that awful? That's really bad. And they agreed to add machinery guarding to the pit lift for the remainder of the show, but obviously that's, you know, too late for him and actually adding guarding is pretty inc onsequential because they agreed to that in december twenty thirteen. Does he sue them? I don't know if he sues them. Maybe it's very American to sue, isn't it? I think you'd be well within your rights to sue in that situation. I don't think you someone did that in the UK, you'd go that's a bit American and they've ended your dancer. No, no, no I think that's fine. And so by that point the weekly takings are below a million just a million . But the show needs so much more than that to run and it's scheduled to cl ose on the fourth of january twenty fourteen . And so it is known as the biggest broadway failure of all time , but in a way they do turn it around slightly with the, you know three, years and stuff. I think if it runs for three years , I think we need to change the narrative about Spidey. I know and I've really sucked you in for most of it with it. It's a disaster . But since eighteen fifty seven, thousands of shows have beenroad on Bway obviously. Yeah . Only ninety seven have run longer than Turn Off the Dark. It did one thousand two hundred and sixty eight performances , and so that's pretty impressive, isn't it? I think so. Yeah. And the show grossed zero point two five billion, a quarter of a billion pounds. It grossed. How's it not making money yet? It sold two million tickets and it still wasn't enough , but these things are really like raises ed aregen't they they where gonna're make money. Yeah, it's a huge risk. In a way, it did better than so many other theatre shows. Yeah, it really did. And I didn't know that. Yeah, so you've learned something, but in another way, it destroyed so many people 's lives . Not lives, didn't destroy their lives, but you know , it may have the dancer whose foot was crushed. Julie basically can't even say the words anymore. Various people are injured . One guy died not as a result of it, but you know, it is a story of absolute turmoil. It really is. But it's been a joy to share it with you. Yeah . And shall we stay on this call and talk about our AT musical? Yeah, I think I think we should . But there's only one bit of flying there, right? Yeah. So how difficult can it be? How difficult can it be to get a guy to fly on a bike over the top of the moon? Is such a big risk, isn't it? Like you see it just now. Paddington opened, didn't it just before Christmas? Yeah. And people have gone mad for it, but people were thinking this could go either way. This is outlook. Paddington bear, but I guess you've got to take the risk. Well, it's like the X Factor Musical which I went to see and I loved because it was written by Harry Hill and Steve Brown, it was great. And it had like Cynthia Arivo in it. It had Cynthia Arrivo in it incredibly. It's so bad, isn't it? Yeah. They basically were in a situation where if they weren't selling out the palladium every night, it financially wasn't viable. And you're like, the moment you put yourself in that situation is just You want to start in a smaller theater, guys. You want to start in a smaller theatre? Thanks so much, Susie. Oh, it's always a pleasure. It's always a pleasure to catch up and talk for, you know, three hours about Spider Man and the musical. It's what we'd have been doing anyway. Yeah, exactly. It's just nice that someone's pressed record. Normally I do have an iPad with notes when I talk to you. It's quite weird. Yeah . You write down all the things you want to cover with me . Well, next time we'll cover a different subject. I'll get my notes ready for that. I can't wait . That's it for this series of archives of pop culture , you than fork listening. Do join the fan club. You'll get all of the next series way before everyone else, straight away in fact . Plus you'll get loads of bonus episodes. Ah, there's loads of extra ad free. You know the jazz monthly exclusive , often live episodes. Free ticks is the annual archive of pop culture live show. That's a guaranteed ticket or streaming link and the event is not available for general sale. Plus, did I say pimbash? The ultimate prize . Ah my word. It's the Natwest Piggy Bank of twenty twenty six . Simply head to museum of pop culture dots supporting cast fm to find out more, sign up to the Fan Club or click the link in the episode description . We love the community that's building around this show. Thank you for all the support so far and helping us make the episode. It is a great joy. Archive of pop culture is a Keep Itedia Light Mion Pro hdostucted by me, Josh Whittakham. Research by Mira Patel and Emily Pickhle, additional editing by Woolfitzpatrick, designed by John Gregory. Music is by Pickle and Button. We will see you soon. Goodbye