Reflecting on One Hundred Episodes

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WeatherTech is built for all of those summer things, allowing you the freedom to go all in. WeatherTech is an American made premium product built to last and easy to clean. If you're going all out this summer, you need WeatherTech. Visit weatherteech dot com today Goodbee. The best parts of summer aren't just places, they're feelings. It's the scent of fresh ocean air, sun warmed skin, and long evenings outside. PR's new Smmer collollection is designed to capture those fleeting moments and make them last. Restore your sense of place with clean, premium fragrances you control from your phone. Bring the feeling of summer Discover the collection at pa. com. Goodbye bye Hello and welcome to reewind with Karen, Georgia. This is a show where we discuss our old episodes with case updates and new insights now one hundred times over. This is reewind four episode one hundred of So you don't have to scroll all the way down. No, never again. Never again. Now you can just listen to this. Start here. Today, we're rewinding, as I just said to episode one hundred, and we nameamed this episode. What? The one hundredth episode. Incredible work. This episode originally came out on december twenty first, twenty seventeen. Oh my God. Back B back when. All right, let's listen to the intro of episode one hundred ! Stehven. that. Hey, it's the one hundredth episode of my favorite murder. Remember the podcast you've listened to ninety nine point Oh eight times. Holy crap. I'm pouring. myself and Stehven a glass of this beautiful rosese champagne that today was Vincecent and I were walking by this store and I was like, oh, let me go and get a bottle for the hundredth episode. And I'm looking through this thing and this cute girl with blue hairs like ast I'm like, Ohh manah, thank you And then the chick behind the counter who owns the place is like, I love it too. And they both started talking to me about it. and it was really sweet And so I just wanted to say thank you To Inovino, to Suusannet Inovino and Jen's Fne phhotography. Well, exciting. I have a cup of tea We have a cup of tea and we have a cake from Carell.. Stehven wenton picked it up at the one Los Angeles location that's been there for a long time. Yeah, they've been there for a while and they were very sweet. and ye, they've been afterking ice cream cake. G give it to us. Yeahah. Amazing. So fucking cool. I mean, I don't even remember having the conversation about talking about how we were going to have this cake on this day I don't remember I talking about ninety nine episodes worth of things. So true. Here we are. And yet we're just gonna keep on talking. Yeah. Bloody blah. Let's first we have presents from Stehven. Yeah. Let's just describe these because we walked upstairs into the beautiful podcast loft And on the podcast coffee table, there are two what I refer to as hat boxes. Gorgeous red, like gilded hat boxes. Spoilers. king. Oh. Okay, other hats, anotherother hat. Oh my go, this is beautiful It is Ooh Uh oh.ice. Are these head mes They're like Are these like Janna Jackson mes? Yeah. Steven Oh God. Stephven got us head mic this? This is what having a hundred podcast is like. Holy shit, Stehven, we're gonna record We're gonna record like gamers do they when they record themselves for YouTube. It's totally true. When you can do all your dance moves and everything. Deven can like you can move your body the way you've always wanted to, Karen, when we're recording. I've wanted one of these my whole life. Shut up. I've just never had a reason for it. I love it. Steven. Deven, thank you. We didn't get you. We're going to No, I'm so glad you like them. I mean they're just like, they're just so fun. They're been likeautiful. Just watching Dana Jackson's just like Yeah. it. So we're gonna be on the next level. Can we plug them in now? That might take a while. Can' we just put them on them? you just wear them. Okay. They kind of look like like retain the retainers of people headar. They look like headgeear if you need a visual. And it's totally like what someone would wear like the top gun or something like that and they have like They've got like foam. It's just really intense. I feel like I get very it's not that often that someone gives me the perfect gift because I donon't talk about what I like that much. I only talk about and focus on what I hate. And This is just such a fucking hilar. This is such a perfect gift. It's such a lovely It's so perfect for suchuch a lovely gesture. For us, for this occasion, everything about it. They never would up here in my life. Oh my gosh, Well, it's just yeah,re blessing. a special day. Thank you You know what it is. He's forced to listen to us.. So he he has to pay attention to what we say. He doesn't want the mic to keep thumping against my teeth anymore like it always does. The foam on teeth is real gross to begin with How is your the background noise of just gift wrap paper constantly being touched? I mean, that's the new ASMR thing. So Oh yeah. Karen, I think that you're just gonna start wearing this always. I think you're exactly asleep. and when you're in the car and you're on the phone. I have to say, I have a lot of the same feelings that I had when I was I think I've told you the story when I was like four or five and my aunt Jean gave my sister a pair of red cowothes for her birthday. And the second I saw her open the box, I screamed, grabb them, put them on and would not take them off. And I wore them for like three years. And this I have very much the same feeling with. Can I say so you and I blah blah, blah said like we'll give each other presents for cont episode So that looks great on you. Does it? my God, look like you look like you work at a call center Thank you. You look like like Anne Rule in the seventies. You Ted Bundy. You look like you work next to Ted Bundy. I'm trying to help people, but I'm also making friends with one of the most legendary serial killers of all time. Yes Yeah U So I was like, well, what do I get Karen? I've been stressing about it for like a week. Spoiler alert, I got you nothing, which is totally my style. I stressed and stress. donon't do anything about it. You froze. So that I had good ideas. And actually initially, those red cowboy boots you talked about, I was gonna get a cake made that were red cowboy boots. Oh my God. No, I didn't do it though. That doesn't matter. That's making idea. have aple I a couple so I wanton't points for them even th. I get fifty points for red cowboy boot cake. I have a great imagination and crippling anxiety that doesn't let me do anything about it. It's that follow through, but I am an honest believer and it's the thought that count. I too. I really am. I am too. Okay, great. So that was gonna be one. Then I was thinking I'd either go get a tattoo or have a tattoo artist come here for us and give us SSDGM tattoos while we work recording, but I couldn't remember if you wanted one or not Okay, well, then I would have gotten one. I mean, I love the idea of it. Yeah, but I to get one J not me. I have a tattoo that I shouldn't have gotten in the first place and in getting it realized. I'm not a tattoo person. I get that. So that was another idea. And then o and then I was just gonna wrap I was gonna gift wrap really well, a beautiful, like Christmasy gift wrapping, gorgeous, just a pan of cheesy potatoes. like my lady from Unhealthy obsessions or whatever that TLC show is. Oh yeah. you love cheheesey potatoes. Che potato. them backstage a lot. Yeah. So I was gonna do Some version of potato and cheese or pastaac and. I make a good mac and cheese, maybe that. Green things make us cry Someday. Cheesy potatoes. Yeah save our life. Well, here's thank you for all those thoughts and for stressing about it, that's even more of a gift of like true anxiety over it means a lot I came up with the idea And when you said, Oh, really? And then I was like, yes, and then immediately forgot and haven't thought about it since I walked in the door and you were like, I didn't get you anything. And I was like, okay. You're like, Oh, why would you don't ever get me anything? And I'm like, Oh both s said but immediately I was like, Oh, thank God. she forgot to or she like didn't do it either. It's just so classic me that would be like my bossy idea. Yeah. And then I'm just like, I don't know you're talking about. Anyway didn't follow through right? It. You have no memory of it and I have no follow through. And together, that's a hundred episodes, man. Dude, we are it was a match made in heaven for real. It really was. Be it's like it's a friend of mine the other day, I forgot. We had made dinner plans and then she texted me was like, now like I had to move one night on her. Then she texted me and she was like, Now I have to move a night. And I was like, yay, it's never bad news to me. Yeah when you flake cance I love it. Or I just never hear from you again. It's always a relief to me. If you see me out at night, I really like you. You know what I mean? Yeah. L O you already think I'm a flake and I I've used up all my flakingness on you. Yes, you're scared. Yeah. I have a couple friends that are like Oh, you're actually here, but then they're always like, but you always make me come to your side of town. When I'm like, where should we go? I'm like down the street. It's so great over here., but here's the thing. And this is how it is sometimes. you got a cop, if you live in an area where it's just not that cool. Yeah, like you can go out This is the thing. you have to like master a plan. you have to think of everybody in the plan because there are people who are like, o, I'm married I have a kid. So if we go to dinner, I don't give a shit where we go because it's all the same to me But if you're like a single lady trying to maximize your time because you finally left the house after two weeks, you don't want to go to fucking the grandma restaurant at also. You don't want to go to when yours like, when you're single and your friend's like, just come over and'll I'll make dinner, No, I possibility of seeing a hotkey at a bar. Don't waste my time in front of your TV. No, I one hundred percent get that. Yes It's like if I'm going to make the monstrous effort. Oh yeah, of putting clothes on this body and rolling on outside, we've got to actually do something that's like worth the while. Pl, there's no way your fucking whatever salad you throw together is gonna be good as like a cheese plate from the fucking nice restaurant. Yeah. And let's spend some money. Come on. on J care this time. And did you hear about the asteroid that came within three miles of the Earth? No, I love that though. I mean, guys, we're on a clock. Oh my God, maximize this fun. Please, this Christmas season. I went to my Hanukah party last weekend over the weekend, which was super fun. and all my young, sweet cousins listened to the podcast. how young Well they're like in they're like just out of college. So they're all cool. St up Savannah, Jillian, Hi ladies. Hi. They're just like sweet little angels and and I love them. That's so very cool. Yeah, I I had family too who were like, it's people that you don't expect. I was the young like twenty year olds that I know that like Lauren and Connor and Johnny know are my family know. I'm always like, they don't care about anything from my as. Like why would they? Right They were boring old people. life, the way we live is so different that it's like we might as well be from different sides of the planet So good. God bless, go do your thing. Yeah. So when they come and they're like Oh my god, all my friends like you it's like what? it honestly feels like A ghost has walked through the wall and been like, oh my God, we like you.'s I' validating you. Suddenly. it's like, oh my Godd, I'm not It's validating you from people that you're like, I have to dismiss your group because it's sad when old people want young people to think they're cool. The podcasts, there's something about them. It's all old people. It's mind control.. It's mind control. How's my headset look? It looks still glorious. You look like Judith from HR And then every time you say something into it, you have to touch the earpiece lightly. That's right. because I'm also, I have to be honest, I'm a little bit playing News Copter for pilot. Like I'm a traffic reporter right now. Karen. We have Karen Kan and S skky Guys, I'm looking right down at the I five and everything's on fire. Oh on my way here. That's the only thing you can say. That's like the only time they bring care and chaot is when there's a fire. In the south plant? It's always on fire. Hey, it's twenty eighteen and we're on fire sorry, I did a terrible radio voice, but the exit to come here, there was a slowdown, of course. I went five miles an hour the whole time. it's so fascinating to talk about LA trff. Everyone loves it. But when I took the exit, there was like a huge tow truck. and then when we all had to drive by it real slow It was a maserati that had rare ended like Ikeia. and it was I laughed so hard Because maserati is, why do you drive that car? No. You're just flossing. you're just trying to make people think you're important. R. Oh God. And one listener who drives a maszerati right now is like, I fucking knew it. My brother told me it was cool. ucking I fucking it, you know what I'm taking this fork. We brought forks up here. I'm digging into this carbeel cake. Eating food on a podcast into a microphone is now AS ASMR, right? It's ASMS ASAP. Oh my God. This not so good Oh Okay, let's fucking cooking Channel unique sweet dish for a minute. Do it Can I say? All right Stepven are you going to eating any of this? Stephven there's a. Fudgy the wheel cake. I said Grab the cake and three forks. And you got so excited that I didn't say plates. Yeah. becausecause there's no fucking chance we're cutting this and putting on plates. It's kind of monsters you think we are This isn't fucking tea timee with Karen in Georgia, or whatever A It's an ice cream cake, but there's like a layer of marshmallow fluff in it It's crunchy from the like, it's like cookie pieces No that's what it's like famous for. Right, right. And it's got the like fudgy frosting and just a little bit of cake. It's not a ton of cake.'s There's barely any cake that there's also a strip of caramel. Oh my go. underneath this spudge frosting. It's like my mouth is watering and I'm eating it. at the same time, that's how good it is. It's fun about eating I' talking in the microphone. What's really fun about eating a thing like this, like when you become an adult is you get to eat it and make as big a mess as you want. Yeah. Also, here's what's really funny I think there's a lot of people in the East Coast that probably think this is hilarious because we're describing a thing that'd be like, oh my God It's like the peanut butter is right next to the jelly. where they're like, yeah, everyone's had this, You don't need to describe it. This is our childhood. Nody cares. Every single person had this for their birthday party. Yeah. It's like you We didn't. No. I've never had that in my life. neeither. It's the best Fuck Let's get suugar high And party You know it's so funny. L if we can get into it really quickly. Someone tweeted today at us. Yes and said Okay, hold on. Stephen wait, hold on. They said please eat a whole cake on the show. And I said, sounds great. And we did it. I'd love to. They said, You know what? That's a great idea That's My gift to you is dessert for dinner. Oh my God, That's so good. I wantna cry. Stephven, don't you love it? Stephven, keep eating it. So good. Keep eating it. Keep eating it while I find this tweet. and we're back Wow, one hundred episodes. I'm glad we celebrated. I mean The range of growth, that's just I want to focus on that for a second. is the full range of growth that we've shown in this series. one hundred alone. How many episodes do we have now? like five hundred Over five hundred. Right, Molly, how many? We just recorded five hundred thirty four? fiveive thirty four and one hundred is nothing Wh celebrating this. That's back before we understood anything that was going on. So in the episode, Stephven gave us headphones in boxes like this. Oh, there they are. Oh my go. That's day of This is Listener, if you're only listening, Molly just put up a picture of the day of the hundredth episode and the gifts we got. There's forks everywhere in a cararvell Fudgie the whale cake. I also want to point out that you' hold forks everywhere. The joke about podcasting in pajamas, I'm literally wearing pajama pants. photo That was back when we didn't have to care about our appearance because we were merely podcasters Okay, let's open these. Look at the little vial. What do you think's in that? Look at my tiny iPhone. Look at that I'm on Twitter as we record. There's my wine Wow, okay. Okay, T the news I'm excited No. Yeah Do these really work? Not currently, but we can make them work But we can put them on as if these are going to look great. Yes 'ause they're kind of like headbands. Yeah, exactly Hello You know I wish I could wear my sunglasses on my head at all times as like an accessory. As like a headband. I just think it looks good. but you would to do that at night. What about this? This is great too. Hello, True Crime podcasting, mayay I help you? Hello Paging Doctor Lias. Ping Paging Doctor Podcast These are great Thank. Now we can dance. And we're wearing them the whole time. So in that red box that showed up in that photo we just threw to, Stephven had the original Janet Jackson style headsets. And that's what this is as well, a nod to that. Thank you. More headsets. You know I still have that gift box. I store belts in it. Nice. Well, what I love is this these we Stephven gave us these headsets. For hundreds original We immediately lost them. them again after. We never saw them again And then for this hundredth rewind We get to go back. hereere they are. And now I finally get to live my headphone, Janet Jackson life. You look great. Also doubleple you have triple microphones right now. Triple. That's right. I have so many microphones and so much sccotch tape on me. You got to microphone up. Go. You're a microphone influencer. Okay, I'm taking this off. Okay Not belieaveve it looks that talk about. I mean. Thank you so much. love I love that we finally have these in our hands. We actually get to enjoy these. If there's a day where we can actually podcast with them on and use them, That's where I want to get to. This way we can walk and talk. podcast from all over the office all over the office, and we can take drive through orders It's gonna be so good. Okay, now we're back in the show we're doing. I have information for you. I have I have an update on Carvel. So The Santa Monica Boulevard in Westwood location has closed permanently. Yeah. As of twenty twenty six, there are only three remaining Carvll locations operating in California. Wow. Do you want to guess where they are? Duarte No. U Hanford. Merced randomly by Medesta. Madeira I think there's waterers slides there No that's Mantiica, I'm sorry. Lamore. I've never heard of that place. Oh, that's across the freeway from Hanford. What's Hanford? Panford is what the city I just guessed. because it's on the way up to five. This is local jokes get local work The definition. Why are they all in Northern California? Or central. Central, yeah. But I mean, how did they stay in business when the LA one couldn't? I thought the demand was from the hipsters who were from the east cooast that lived in LA Hartisan ice cream and all that, you know, it has to be Earl Gray and tobacco flavor now. I don't like that. You don't like the weird flavors? I want to buy it. I'm so up for ice cream. put Gorgola I was just going to say I want blue cheese and cherries. No. That was the best ice cream fucking salad if that's what you want so bad. I'm sorry. That's not we're trying to do on the one hundredth episode. Okay, so we both covered the same story on this episode. This was a cool idea where we broke format and we're like now for the hundredth We're going to celebrate by doing the same story together. You should do that again. Sure. That's homework. I mean. We break up a story Halves these. Yeah One does one, one does the other. Okay so let's get into it. Someone write this down? We are going to get into our one hundredth story, the big one. Yeah. This is the story about the mysterious, suspicious death Kleen Peterson Summers for adventures, road trips, and adding a whole lot of miles to your car. That's why it's worth stopping at Valvalinee Instant oil change first. If you need an oil change, make the smart stop at Valvalinee Instant oil change before you hit the highway. Their trained techs can help you get road trip ready with an oil change and an eighteen point maintenance check included with every oil change, checking your tire pressure, wipers, lights, and more. That means they're checking important things before you're halfway to your aunt's house with no cell service. And these aren't just any techs. Valvaline Instant oil change techs complete over two hundred seventy hours of training So your car's in capable hands. The best part, you can stay in your car and you're in and out in about fifteen minutes. So before your next long summer ride, pull into Valvaline inststant oil change. Valvaline Instant oil change, change wisely. G Bye. Summer is all about saying yes, going out and bringing the mess home in your car. Sand, grass, and melting snacks will inevitably hit a ride. But with weather teech, you can live life to the fullest WeatherTech floor liners, cargo liner, and seat protectors allow you to keep up with your summer adventures without the worry. WeatherTech is built for all of those summer things, allowing you the freedom to go all in. WeatherTech is an American made premium product built to last and easy to clean. If you're going all out this summer, you need WeatherTech. Visit WeatherTech dot com today. Goodbye This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. It's twenty twenty six, and if you have an alternative career like food photography or professional mix tape making or witchcraft, you're gonna need an online presence. Whatever your thing is, Squarespace helps you build a website that's as unique as you are. Squarespace provides you everything you need to offer services and get paid, all in one place. From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. Get paid on time with professional invoices and online payments. pllus, streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools.arespace's collection cutting edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful, professional online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Head to squarespace. com slash murder for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code Murder to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye bye A guy named His Twitter handle is Manny Patankkin? Oh my go, Manny Patenkin. Manny twenty one eighty nine Texas added us to ons where he said so. You guys talked about the staircase death a lot in the start of your podcast days but you guys never fully got into it. and I still have no idea what it is and owl question mark. Someone sent us that today Really? Yes That's hilarious. How weird is that becausecause on our first episode and Stehven went back and listened to it wrote up some nice notes for us. It's called D diligence. That's right. He did it. He did his diligence. He did his duty. so we didn't have to do no duty exactly. We talk about the staircase. We both believed I think for a while, we believed we had covered it, but it was just conversation, a long conversation And then The fun reveal that you told me was that then when we decided, okay, for the hundredth episode, we're going to cover the staircase together officially. I just realized I'm like trying to surprise everyone by telling them about rereing the staircase, but then I just realized they saw it in the description of the podcast episode when they pressed play probably.. So it's not a surprise. It's not and you know at some point you got to reveal the surprise. What if Steven, you put in the description Surprise hundredth episode case Okay, Oh my go, they're gonna to fucking shit. Guys surprise But there is a surprise because then what what was your reveal? Okay, so yesterday like not yesterday. Last week, this is how fucking this is how professional this podcast is. as Karen Steven are walking out of my door after we recorded and we're trying to guess like what what we were gonna we want to cover a story together blah, blah, blah And as we're walking out the door you' walking out the door, I'm like one of us is like, staircase, greatreat. goodbye. I think it' you. Okay U And so credit. Thank you, but I don't want to I don't need it. I turn ono the staircase to watch it and realize I have just been bullhioning it this past couple years when people are like, haveave you seen the staircase? And I'm like, Yeahah, because I don't want to be like No of course, you know, one hundred percent one hundred percent. one hundred percent. And I kind of convinced myself that I had seen it. But as we're watching episode one, I was like, oh my God, I've never fucking seen this. I've watched the forensic files about it and I've read a ton about it, but I've never fucking watched the actual documentary. It's so funny Basically, the entire relationship and our story, our origin story is predicated on the fact that we both talked endlessly about the staircase at that att Matt's Halloween party. Yeah And all of that's a lie. That's like a miss that I remember knew about it. No, of course. But I didn't know. I didn't know. You know what? after watching most of it I didn't know what I was talking about God just goes to show what a fucking. glass of whiskey will do. But you did in that way where is this is one of the stories that's been around for so long. and we've talked about that where the first couple true crime like you know F eight hours types of shows that I saw about it presented it in a very clear cut way. Yeah. I went back and watched the forensic files, which we'll talk about once we get through it, but it's definitely this is the story. And then shit just keeps throughout the years getting added ono it. Yes. And it's really crazy. And I do have to say watching the documentary gave me a completely different So guys, go watch the staircase. It's like a ten part documentary. Yeah, forty five minutes each or something like that. This is what I love about this case is it's all opinion. I mean, there's just so many potential this is I feel like this is the part of true crime where people started to go Oh yeah, the justicism, and I should say this, white people who are like not people of color started to go Oh the justice system could get swayed one way or the other based on what the people in charge think of who they're trying. Right. And that I don'tt think anyone really really looked at that much before this case where they's like, now look at it this way. and then you're like, oh my go, they hated him because of this and that. I mean, this is the original Jinx, this is the original making a murderer. Like if you have feelings about that, you know you need to watch this was way before it's you know, time And I think this also two years before, right It seems a vintage, doesn't it? Well the like the American justice I watched today was super vintage. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I watched the forensic, Okay, let's talk about the fucking case. All right, let's get into this. D we get into it? So this is this is the death of Kathleen Peterson Period The episode of the American Justice that I watched starring Bill Curtis from two thousand four was called Blood on the Staircase. Okay. Well, the forensic files is called a novel idea. Oh it was no. he was a novelist. It's a novel idea to kill your wife. Yeah. I'm like, o man, yeah, love it Blood on the staircase. Okay. Sorry stay. Can I just say Oh wait, are we gonna cut that out entirely? becausecause Georgia gotut up to get something. And she walked over to her stairs started walking down and goes, Oh my God, what if I fall down these stairs? wouldn't that' be great? If I just died? A falling down the stairs? So clean one hundredth episodeod about a staircase fall. About a staircase fall, you can't see anything. so Steven and I can actually say anything we want happened And as long as we're on the same page. And the recording would be played in court over and over again. becausecause as I yell, I go, No Karen and Steven. That's what I yell for no reason. And then I'll be like, Your honor, you can clearly hear Stehven stroking his mustache. You know he's sitting down. Yeah. You can hear me eating cake and drooling about fucking. Where was the cake placeed at the time? Was it on the staircase? It was into my mouth. Okay. The whole time. Should we just read them at the same time and sure And then I was thinking you mean two people talking all the same time Ppose because they reready on December go nineteen nineteen, ear ninet seventy two. Also also, I think at the beginning of this we should say what we think Bike What we think the truth is. Okay. and I think we should say that till the end Well, I'm going to convince you of my truth. Okay. What you about what about you? Well, I was just gonna, I mean, maybe we just talk through Okay, it as we go and we'll just and then we're yelling at each other, then we have different opinions. Yes if we're like building each other up. If love can build a bridge, Yeah, then we both think he's guilty. I definitely think he's guilty Oh good, me too. Yeah ye. one hundred percent. C on. Well, you know what's funny is before I watch the do the staircase thought I was like, well, the howwl theory makes so much sense Which will get to you guys. Yes. But now that I'm like, oh no, you're so sweet baby Angel, you think that fucking UFO's exist and Well they do. Now we know now we know they do. they do alien unidentified alien alloys have been discovered. aliens exist I've known that. anyone that watches ancient aliens knows it and has known it for quite some time a Siamese cat knows that they're fucking aliens. That aliens live here. They were here first. It's their planet. We're visiting it. Everything. Wait. no I was going to say that I think that the reason that documentary is so amazing and effective is because You never see Or you rarely see the murderer's family featured the way this family is featured. V. So you go through it with the family Yeah And you want what the family wants because there's so much pain and horror going on. and the layers keep unpeeling where you're like, oh, no. So then you start to understand why People do the things they I had it was so watching it was so problematic for me because it made me, what's so funny about the documentary is clearly made from a standpoint that he is innocent which is so ironic that it made me one hundred percent sure that he's guilty. So there's something fucking off there. and what is off is Michael Peterson's personality. Hell yeah how fucking creepy and narcissistic and wrong he is. And I swear to God, the two adopted daughters, they're in a fucking cult Don't call your dad, right because he's because you gotught to get off the phone with your dad. Th girls, man. It's very sad, but it's but I think well, I think that documentary wasn't necessarily on his side. I think they were doing the we're just veritee, we're here to record what's happening and what happens left out so much evidence that that That's I just don't think that's possible. Okay. Well, but I think it in In pretending that it's guiding you this way opens the door to let you go that way. You know what I mean? It's that thing of like, you can come all the way into the house because we know he's innocent. and then you're like, yeah, I smell a rat, which none of that would have happened if they'd hadn't done it that way. It's the case of fucking this guy who thinks that he seems very empathetic and that end seems deep and interesting when really everyone is so on to him. Can I read what he Can I just can we start by me saying he got out when he got out on bail of prison, the first thing he said, A you ready are you ready for this? to say this? Oh, do you have it on G goo ahead and then we'll see if it's the same thing Kathleen was my life I whisper her name in my heart a thousand times She is there, but I can't stop crying. Kathleen, what's my life I whispered her name in my heart a thousand times She was there But I can't stop crying. It's just like w I would never have done anything That's okay. I am innocent of these charges. Re allowed? And we will prove it. Well if we're gonna I have stuff to talk about those last two lines too. Oh my go, let's get into this. This is going to be fun because those last two lines, oh God, I have those Okay but really quick. So you and I just picked out the exact same moment where because that was also that episode. By the way everybody, he's in an asphalt parking lot when he says that. with news cameras in front of him and he is doing the worst acting. It's like of sorrow It's it's It was so somber and then like I'm a really good writer. so here's you can see him practicing this in the mirror.. It is the fakest fucking thing you've ever seen. And it is such a presentation. Yeah. It's so much artificactial. In the background is his poor daughter . I was gonna say it starting from the nine hundred and eleven call, which is also insanely fake. Okay, well, here's what I told Stehven and let we know you're up for this. You know what? We might need to start doing things at the the same one at the time. Episode one hundred one hundred through fking and one hundred ninety nine us together e' not knowing. we don't know what the case is. Either that or this is because we both want to say something the most irritating episode we've ever done biggest cluster fuck, whichich is why like some people who don't know what this case is are like, can you just tell me what happened first? If you don't know what the case is, you what you know what? You know what? Hang out the ph. Please don't hang up the phone. Hang up the phone All right. Okay, on december ninth, two thousand one, this dude named Michael Peterson, you heard his voice. He's a creep called nine hundred eleven to report that he had just found his wife of fourteen years forty eight year old Kathleen unconscious And he said he thought that she fell down the stairs of their Forestfills home in Durham North Carolina. Yeah Michael said that he had been outside by the pool and had come in at two forty AM to find Kathleen at the foot of their stairs. He maintained that she must have fallen down the stairs out because they had been drinking and she had taken valium all night. interterjected at any fucking moment. I was just gonna say, Valium is kind of a one off thing in my experience, you, it's not like you party with it all night long. Right. You take the one you're going to go to bed. G night. Yeah, end a story. Yeah. Okay. But when police arrived, the amount of blood on the walls made them suspicious So toxicology reports show that Kathleen had an alcohol content of zero point zero seven percent. How, Karen, I want to ask you something right now. I was thinking it'd be fun We got a we got a breathalyzer and made Stehven get that drunk and see how that is. It's not that drunk. And I say that's the stairs. F healthy glasses of wine. Yeah. because point zero eight is legally R.s that's not illegal in North Carolina to But see my point is it's not that high Like you can get arrested for buzz driving because zero eight is not sloppy, drunk, crazy. Yeah. zero eight you shouldn't drive at that point. You have impaired yourself, but you're not know So I'm know so Dou's advocet, it's not impossible that at that point you'd fall down the flight of stairs if you were running up them. one hundred percent. Yeah. But sorry, she's running up stairs. Yeah. She's falling backwards not not from the top of the stairs, but almost from the bottom of the stairs. Well let's get to that. Okay too So Michael claimed that he had been outside by the pool with Kathleen. They had been talking because they're madly in love with each other, according to him until she went in around midnight and that he had come home come back in around forty five minutes later. to I don't know the timeles whered to find her at the foot of the stairs. So But here's the thing, it was fucking December and he's saying he's sitting by the pool finishing his drink and shit and shorts and a t shirt. It's fifty to fifty five degrees outside You know how you do, right Which is like, yeah, your couch and your warmhouse is whatever, forty feet away but you're just gonna to go sit by the bat unless they were fighting for forty five minutes. There But it's also a fucking palatial mansion. So there's eight hundred rooms for you to go into. Y. But I mean, like if they got into a spat at the pool and she stormed in, A, if she fell so badly that she was killed, you would hear that. and you would hope that you would clonk. Even if you didn't know for sure, you'd be like, maybe I should go check. evenven if I'm mad, I should go check. doesnn't do that. R For an hour Yes. Okay D. Okay. And the other thing is to, so he calls nine hundred eleven And before the ambulance gets there between that time, his son Todd from a previous marriage who's like a in his twenty is already there Why was he doing there? Okay. Well, he lived at the house though. No he didn't. Oh, I thought he did. I don't think he did. He He was out of the house at a party. Y this was a American justice that I watch. He was down the street at a party. Okay, and then came home. So the autopsy report concluded that Kathleen sustained severe injuries including a fracture of the thyroid neck cartilage, which isn't the Hyoid bone that always talk about, but something similar. and seven lacerations at the top and back of her head, consistent with blows from a blunt object caused by homicidal assault. and had died from blood loss ninety minutes to two hours after sustaining her injuries So here's what I was thinking Since we both think he's guilty, And it's all bullshit Should't we listen to the nine and eleven call? No. come on. Okay, you can play it. You can play it. but it's can so we can say it too. It's Normally nine hundred eleven calls upset me because it's a real moment of the worst. It like makes my adrenaline go. Yeah. But this instead fills me with absolute disgust because it's insanely fake. That's why I want to listen to it because it's like Do you have it? I told Stehven to have it ready. just it's just so Unbelievable to me. Dm nine hundred ele, Wh' your mcus? eighteen ten C the street, please. What's wrong? My wife kind of accress, She's still breathing What kind of accidident? She down stairs. She's still breathing, please, Is she conscious? What? Is she conscious? No, she's not conscious . How many stairs did you all down? How many a bear? Be. How many stairs? Calm down, sir. Calm down. No, just twenty I don't know. Please get somebody right away please somebody iss dispatching the ambulance while I ask you questions. It It's a force joke. okaylease He is the fakery is he wants to get off that pham. Yeah. He he is He's playing a part and he can't sustain it. He's delivering his part and that's all he can do. And it's that thing in like acting where it's like, if you scream really loud, then you've there's nowhere else to go. So he didn't start trying to be calm, which is I think what people normally do. orr if they're having a reaction, they they listen because they need help. So they want to listen to what the person who can give them help is doing And saying Be the person on the other line is going to tell them how to potentially save this person's life. So you need to calm down and listen to that's what they're trained to do. Yeah. But he's not doing any of those things because he just wants the big show of how upset he is. Right. And he wants to deliver his information, A, that she's still alive to lie about the timeline and that she fell downstairs. The fact that he doesn't mention, and if you see the photos, it's an insane amount of blood. And the fact that he doesn't yell, there's so much blood. Oh you know, like most people if they see them man of blood would freak the fuck out. Yes And the blood part when you like in the one that I was watching, the second the camera goes in and they have like the police camera of walking in, the amount of blood that's there is so ridiculous for a stair fall for a slip and fall downstairs Yeah, which is not if you think about like when you fall down, you skin your knee, if you hit your head You'd have a little bit of blood.. There is blood everywhere at the bottom of the stairc. Cooling. cool And then smeared and then splatted over it. likeike it's nuts. And the other thing that this so this person, Ursla Franco, who's a criminologist, has a really great website MA L K E crime notes she does the thing I love where she breaks down the wording in a lot of his speeches and things he says. And one of them is that when she says how many stairs That's a question he did not expect to hear. and it takes him fifteen. twenty five seconds from the beginning of the call to answer that because he wasn't near the body when he was asked that question. So the thing is, and she says, most people, when someone is hurt are next to the body because they're ready to help and they want direction on how to help.. But he was in another room away from the mess. And so he stalls by saying, stairs And it's only because he has to run over and see how many stairs there are. And they said when they did the luminol test, they showed barefoot tracks away from the area and going into different parts of the house. So she was in the blood. he was standing over her body and then left Which is like if you if your loved one, the person that you love the most in the world, was laying in a pile of blood Where are you going? Yeah. Like what thats doesn't it doesn't really track. No. Seemingly, yes Well, we're always right So ah. Okay So also there's a bloody shoeeprint So Kathleen is found in this prone position on her back bottom of it Staircase like laying up the first couple stairs, right So she's on her back. Yeah. But on the back of her sweat pants is a shoe prrint that matches the shoes that Michael was wearing that night, but when the ambulance arrives and the EMT arrives, he's not wearing shoes. For some reason, he's fucking barefoot and his socks and shoes are off and like near her body. Why is that? Because you didn't want to track it, probably right? So how would her how would his shoeeprint end up there? You mean like when he kicks her down the stairs or kicks her from behind or something? Yeah Well also that when they get into, and I mean, we're not going to be able to do this chronologically. don't it's wrex it for the discussion. But like in the case, when they talk about the when the defense is talking about what possibly could have happened to make that much blood that is not not an attack and that many and that many wounds on her head because it's seven wounds. So it's not like She fell down the stairs and maybe would have sustained two head injuries. Let's be generous because we also know she didn't fall from the top of the stairs. Yeah. She fell from five or six stairs up. Yeah. So to get seven head injuries, how did they explain it? It's fucking hilarious. She falls, she hits her head, she gets up F's blood. L they're trying to rationalize how blood is everywhere. She slips and falls back down, which is explaining the fact that she had blood on the bottoms of her bare feet, even though if had so if she had fallen and become unconscious, she wouldn't have blood on the bottoms of her feet. Right. So she did. like they have to explain that too. Right. So that's then they say that she does that multiple times, tries to get up, falls, and hits her head hard enough to lacerate her fucking skull. So meanwhile, her loving, loving husband is sitting out by the pool. She is slipping and falling in her own blood and dying, and he doesn't hear it and doesn't come inside for forty five. F o zero seven wine intake and a valum. I just keep thinking at the time I fell down on the street in front of the movie theater my legendary story where I skin my knee. When you fall down, even like, say eight stairs, You break a hip, you break your kneecap You I don't think anyone ever does that, but I'm just saying scenario. Yes, you sprain your ankle, you get a concussion on your head. If you did cut your head, you have a little bit of blood The idea that there's a pool of blood blood splattered on every wall smeared all around. And to be fair, we all know the head the scalp bleeds profusely. Fair enough. But why would seven lacerations be present you know, it it's and all in the same spot. It's not like all like she's falling down and hit her temo, hit the back of her head, hit the it's all on the back and lower part of her head as if she was running up the stairs away from someone. Yeah and they hit her with something. It clocked her Like repeatedly beat her down. Yeah, essentially U What I think is interesting is that there's a spot blood on the wall as if The first attack had happened, someone tried to clean up the blood and then she wasn't dead and there's blood there's blood spray over the spot where someone was trying to clean the blood off the wall. Yes. so that means either, I think it's either that she became conscious again and wasn't dead and he beat her again. or He tried to clean it realized it wasn't going to work. and so tried to cover up that Can spot with more blood, justust kind of sprayed it on there. Jesus. Do you know what I mean? Yes. That's dark. I mean, like the idea that then he's justs he's just like dis associated I can tell the difference between the blood that was already there and the blood that was't. came later. Yeah. Yeah. I mean There's so many things in this case that make it so he'll never so people can question this forever. And one of them is the fucking Boods spatter analyst. I mean, who Dayanne? Dwayne about Dne It truly my favorite part of that documentary because he looks like he was cast by the Cohen brothers. He is the goofiest looking motherfucker. And the way he talks about the blood spatter, the way he gets excited, like he's the expert here or whatever And then of course, come to find out later on, after this case, after he's tried, after he's convicted, this blood's better guy. turnurns out, wait, I have the details here, from Steven's timeline and also from I wrote dirty Dwayne Dver. Dirty Duayne. A government ordered inquest found that the agents of the FBI, including Dwuayne Dieaver repeatedly aided prosecutors in obtaining convictions over a sixteen year period by misrepresenting blood evidence and keeping critical notes from the attorneys. That was thirty four cases where he falsely represented evidence. So essentially, Michael Peterson gets found guilty. He spends eight years in prison And then fucking Dirdty Duayne comes out that he's a lying liar who lies. Yeah. and all this shit comes out. And so even if his fucking, even if his bloods spatter analysis in this case was totally correct, it doesn't fucking matter Which some of it is and some of it I understand isn't. Well, it's a lot of it is just him roiffing. So it's like him at home going, well, if you do this, then this and if we I'm going do this one. He's doing a lot of like, I approximated it so this is scientific evidence. Like he does it enough times until it fits the story he wants to tell. R, whichich is so problematic. Yeah and crazy and the idea that that amount was what was I going to say? It was the amount of blood and the Yeah, just to me, it's open and shut in that part where it's like, if you're saying she fell backwards down the stairs couple times, it still does not it just doesn't explain that amount of blood. Right. It doesn't. Right. Well he so Michael Person also had blood on the inside crotch of his shorts So that, you know, the Dirty Duayan's argument was that can only happen if he was standing over her beating her. blood spatter whichich is probably fucking true. Yes. But But then I guess scientifically you can say, but you could sit here and go, or if he he flicked his shoe up and there's some like you can't attest for what happens to liquid in a certain scenario. The thing I think is super fake. I mean, like it sucks because that guy himself being a fraud made everything a fraud. whereere it's still It's the amount of blood whatever direction it's spattered in or whatever. Yeah. This is not a I fell down the stairs and hit my head times reasonably. Yeah. This is like a murder scene. There's But there's like four things we'll get to all of that, but there's four things that make you go isn't this isn't an open and showutcase. and one of them is Dirty Duayne. And We'll get to other runs. Well, Anne the daughter, I never saw this in the staircase, but the daughter, Caitlyn, who was Kathleen's daughter from her first marriage. She said that when they first w Kathleen and Michael first got married and she moved into the house with the family. She saw him with like a hair trigger temper and rage issues several times. I've never heard In this episode of American Justice, they have her speaking and she's not in as far as I remember, she's not in this staircase. She's not because But She was every his two biological sons, his two adopted daughters, and Caitln, who was Kathleen's daughter U We're all on his side and then Caitlyn saw the autopsy report Yeah and changed her mind. And she ended up suing him too. Yeah taking him and winner and winning for wrongful death. Okay, sorry, where Be he did it because It's like he did it just from the get go Okay. U let's talk about the fucking problems that pop up and they pop up. It's so interesting on staircase because they pop up during the recording. Do want to get into those Sure, the gay porn thing. I love that guy. He's my favorite parton staircase. Oh my God. What did he What was his argument on the stand? What did he say verbatim I knew Diddy Oh I mean, you had a lot of good quotes. Well Let's good do. Okay. so what I wrote about was that like there were there were two motives And one was that Kathleen had a one point five million dollars life insurance policy. Why U. Well because she so high. She was very fucking wealthy, had a good job. But so around two million with all of her assets U and with the time of her death and that the Petersonss at the time were facing financial issues. They had one hundred forty three thousand dollars in debt at the time. Kathleen Sta Kathleen's company was undergoing major layoffs. Kathleen was in danger of losing her one hundred forty five thousand dollars a year job and her benefits. And she had deferred a lot of her salary. So they didn't have a lot of cash, which is why they weren in so much debt And Michael hadn't had income for a lot of years So So and also I think secretly, the sons were in a lot of debt as well. because there was an email to Michael Peterson's ex wife talking about how they were going to deal with their son's debt And in the email, it Michael says, I cannot speak to Kathleen about this Oh becauses because the money was such a huge issue. Because who knows why? Yeah. becausecause money was an issue because she was sick of, you know, this is speculation, because she was sick of helping them because you know, they weren't her biological sons for whatever reason, you know, they've gotten in illegal trouble in the past, which is true So So there was some secretive stuff going on about money So there's money, which I don't think is I think this is a crime of passion. I don't think the money No, I don't think I don't think the money and I don't think the gay porn, which American No. in the American justustice, they're like, Kathleen was on his hour on his computer two hours before her death. And the theory is that she stumbled upon. I don't think it's the gay porn. I think it's that he was trying to hire se a gay sex worker to have sex with. and she stumbled upon that information. You don't think it's that? No Well no what do you think the motive is I don't know. but I mean, you could her going on his computer doesn't mean she found anything. Yeah. But okay, except that She never went on that computer. The only reason she was doing is because the next morning she had a conference call. and so she didn't have her her work laptop at home with her. So one of her colleagues sent her some information that she needed to get off the home computer. So she checked it before midnight, which she never did. She had to ask Michael Peterson for the password to get into the They're like joint email account So she was never on that computer. and he had printouts of a conversation he had with a male escort about the kind of sex that they were going to have. And like when he could come over, I read all those the emails between the two of them. It's fucking intense Well, but is there proof that she read that I mean No, but if she opened the drawer one drawer to get a pen or whatever and found this or clicked on one email in their email chain and saw it I mean, it's so easy when she's on that PC to find any evidence of this gave this you know, his bisexuality, his hiring escorts, his affairs with men. that he had had in their relationship It's so easy if she had not stumbled upon that and then died that night. I mean, it's just's there's too much of a link between those two things to me Well, I just think if he'd been doing that secretly for a long time, he wouldn't have them printed up and sitting in a drawer. Like gotten away with it for so long that he was he thought, well, it's not that long. I mean, it's like what they were together for eight years or like They were together ten years before they got married Well, so I guess my point is this don I don't buy the idea that all of a sudden she's clicking things and it's like that's it. And also because he that's her being enraged at him I think something happened where he like she was like, she's like, I'm gonna what the fuck is this? I'm going to expose you, getet the fuck out of my house. you're not he has no money. He hasn't had a job in three years. She's like, but that's like so you're saying that the marriage was like eroding anyway and then this was her the like left final straw. No, I think her finding emails that he is literally planning for that week a meet upp with a gay escort. The emails are in a conversation of not someone who is new at this Right. So she finds those emails and realizes and comes downstairs and confronts him, What the fuck is this? This isn't like this is not who I married I'm losing my fucking mind has the emails in her hand, goes to walk upstairs, he fucking panics His whole life is about to be exppl. sorry. So do we know for a fact those emails were printed up? Yeah. Thats that's that' the evidence that they had.. Not that they the lawyers printed them, but Michael Peterson printed the email. Acording to forensic files. Yes. they were printed in his in the drawer in his office. Okay Well just I guess my point is that's all very That just seems like if he had a secret gay life That would be something I just didn't see that relationship and the way I guess it was presented. I was thinking more of she did something said something to him that was more of like her attacking him. So why wouldn't it be your gay? It can what ism I'm just telling you that it seems really it's convenient because It's the one night she uses the computer the one time and then she finds everything, like he's not hiding at all. A. And then B, the lawyers use that in the courtroom As this huge thing of like, oh my God, he's not who anybody. And it was to me, that was one of those moments in the documentary that was so amazing because then you watched all of those people in Durham be like, this is disgusting, this is horrifying. Oh my Godd, this is insane, where it's like actually there's tons of people that do it all the time But I think which is why I loved that fucking sex worker because he got up there and just like, yeah, this is what it happens a lot. It's notot a big deal. But' I don't think that the people in Durham and in the documentary Michael Petersonons talks a lot shit about closed mindedness here in North Carolina, blah, blah blah. But I don't think they were upset with him being bisexual or having homosex relationships. I think that they were pointing out what a liar, Michael Peterson was. And Michael Peterson was saying that Kathleen knew about his infidelities with men was open to him being bisexual and experiencing that outside of his relationship with her. But I think the argument was he's a known liar. He lied about getting the purple heart in Vietnam. He lied that injur he had gotten some injuries in a car accident in Japan years before and said that he had gotten them in Vietnam His ex wife and he divorced because he was having affairs with men and women. So they were showing him as a known liar and saying that she knew about the gay relationships takes away the motive that he would have killed her because she found out about it that night and he flipped the fuck out. Well I mean, look It's not like I'm saying that isn't true. or I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying to me, that seems like it pulls through the thing because in the documentary, they do in the courtroom, people act like holy fuck. It's on camera. It's like one of the biggest parts of that documentary. I mean And so no, that's just my point of people in Durham were freaked out about it. People in Durham were it did become The way that woman, Frida Brown, the prosecutor starts taling about him and this She's so evil about it. It's like she's like the wicked witch of the W. So that to me, I felt like that was a card that they played to cast him in this light in the courtroom to make him look bad. and then when you watch the documentary, you're like, well, those people are bad and that makes him good. And so you start playing against, you know what I mean? It's like they're bad and he's good. But maybe those do. But I think maybe the card He's I think they were surprised to hear that a married a straight barried man was having these illicit relationships with men. I don't think it was that he's having relationships with men. this man's having relationship with men. I think it was definitely. I mean, I'm not so fucking stupid that I think that you know, people don't get surprised when They find out someone's gay, obviously But I think part of it was did Cathine I mean, it's such a it's such a great narrative of she found out this thing about him that he, you know, even if she knew he looked at gay porn found out that he is he's planning on meeting up with and paying for sex from a gay escort. She found out that night, that's the night she died. Like the fact that she was on the computer that night, even though she's never on the computer, and's the night li we don't know for a fact, that's the night she found out. We just know that he had printed up emails that he erased that. Like that the cops found out he was erasing stuff off his computer. And then they went in and were like, your computer's filled with gay porn And you' having these affairs. I don't she on But she went on the computer for the first time in a long time that night that she died Yes, I get that. That's a crazy coincidence It's not, though. I mean, I just don't I it's not a crazy coincidence. It's not a coincidence. It's like that's the motive. that she found out that he was paying for sex from a gay guy. I get it. My thing is, I think it's too much of a coincidence to say all of those things happened because she was like, oh, I got to check my email here I in my mind, that's a thing that got pulled through so that it would be like salacious. So it would be against him and then And then when the documentary comes and everyone in like twenty fifteen or whatever it was, looks at that, they're like, well, fuck those southern bigots. And and that makes him look good somehow. But I guess my point was I think something else happened that would like When he talks and he is so remote and calm and oh, he's just so affable and so intelligent and so see that thing where it's like But the one thing that would turn him and I don't I'm not saying I know what it is. I'm just saying It's a thing that makes him snap, go into a rage and then beat her uill the whole fucking stairwell is bloody. So like it not it's not like, hey, you and you did this and you did that or her like being shrill en up. Mbe he's never been abusive before He know he has been. Oh has he? Yes, well, then we get into, right? Then we get into the family friend, the woman in Germany. How does that find out Okay. Yes So than other weird bombshell that came out during the it was during the staircase being filmed. Well, it's during the case, but I mean, it's because her Kathleen's Is it Kathleen's sister or his first wife's sister calls and says, you do realize R. Oh, no, sorry. girl's mother's sister. So it's girl's aunts that Michael Peterson is their But his words And the aunt calls and says, you do realize their mother was like died at the bottom of a staircase after he walked them home. was last person to CRLI. Yeah. he walked the mother and girls home after they ate dinner at the Peterson's house And then a neighbor saw him running out of the house later on, and she was found at the bottom of the stairs with seven lacerations on her head in the back of her head. Exactly the same fucking death twenty years before. That's Insanity. it here, let's see, d d d d. Okay, so yeah So So two decades before Michael Peterson found Kathleen at the bottom of her stairs He had been friends with another woman named Elizabeth Ratliff, and they had all lived in Germany. Michael Peterson was married to his first wife at the time, had his two sons Elizabeth apparently died after a fall down a staircase and Michael had been the last person to see alive. They ruled authorities ruled ratlififf' deeps to be of natural caauses, concluding that a cerebral hemorrhage caused her to fall and strike her head. whichich makes absolutely no sense. R So they're saying something basically she was at the top of the stairs, went, o my God, my head and fell down the stairs, got seven lacerations. the same thing. That one time went you get what happened. You get why they concluded that. You know what I mean? It's almost sureike, Yeahah, okay, that could have happened. Fll down the stairs. Right.ot looking. She had headaches before supppposedly, I had headaches before weeks before that happened. So She also looks so fucking identical Elizabeth Rratcliffe. and Kathleen look like they could be fucking sisters There's same way. Yes. There's a part where there's side by sides of Elizabeth in thes like seventies probably and Kathleen. and you could completely go, oh, that's her in the seventies and that's her now. Yeah. They looked so similar toally It's insane. And it's this thing of like You know, did he kill the first woman? Did he kill Elizabeth? or did Elizabeth just die that way? And so when he killed Kathleen twenty years later, he set up her body to look the way Elizabeth, you know, like maybe he didn't kill Elizabeth The first one Maybe she actually died that way he and he in this moment of like, well, I need to set the body to look like it was an accident kind of recreated the same scene. But that would mean he was at the scene Right Right because he probably know, he found her body. He came he came when the nanny found Elizabeth Ratcliffe's body, she went and got Michael Peterson. Oh, so he saw it. Yeah. Okay. But I also don't believe that I think he killed down out of me. Well also because it doesn't explain the seeven Lacerations. It doesn't explain It's like, in the what was that fucking Jessica Beal show called Yeah The Center. Remember when she stabs them the exact same way? Yeah s That's what it reminds me of, where it's like seven head lacerations where it's like if it's a blow poke or if it's whatever the thing is, it's like someone goes, fuck you, walks away from him, goes up stairs or however it happens, and he just walks up and goes,, no, no, no no that's his muscle memory. That's what he does to stop someone. And it's a rageaholic explosion where it's like this crazy attack and it happens the same way and then I mean, who knows, This is all obviously bullshit theory, but but we're right. But to me, he does really seem like one of those people that's like he's going to keep it so chilled no matter what Because he does it all the way through the it's so cray. Reing a camera in the staircase is like one of the most infuriating things to me. This is why part of the reason why I didn't, I couldn't watch more than five episodes is I was just like, I do not want to see this man again and hear him speak. Like it was one of those things where Vince had to be like, okay, Georgia, we need to go to bed because I was screaming at him about, youre not screaming, but I was like you know, just yelling at him because he's such a fucking narcissistic And he doesn he's a little bit of a like mister Magu where he's like, I don't really He's making jokes. He's like his brothererss there and they're all just kind of Oh wow. That's very interesting Ands there's no shame. There's doesn't seem to be any real affects. So he's not like, you don't see him. the only time he ever seems like worried or to have Real human reactions is when they're talking about how much jail time he's looking at. Other than that, it's like, Oh, Kathleen, she was really something He also doesn't, he answers things in a way incorrectly. like so I printed out this thing from the Malkey Crime notes where So Okay. So at the end of that, I whisper her name bullshit when he says, I would never have done anything to hurt her. He The way he says that, it's an so she this chick, Ursula Franco says, it's an unreliable denial saying, I would have never done anything to hurt her. And then you can add in unless B blah blah. Unless she' sat on the chair. I' done something wrong. I would have never done anything to hurt her to begin with, right? And then he also says hurt instead of kill to minimize and distance himself from what happened, to deal with the negative emotions. And she says it's a common strategy used by guilty people to deal with feelings of guilt. And then he says, I am innocent of these charges It doesn't mean he didn't kill her. he's innocent of the charges he's being brought up on. Right, right? So it's another not reliable denial to affirm to be innocent is different from saying I didn't kill which is expected. When people say they are innocent, they're just denying the conclusion that they are guilty. And just when they say and when they say I didn't do it, they are denying the action So he's saying he's guil he's not guilty of the charges Laving out what the charges are, again, not telling you. I'm innocent of killing my wife. And' that it's the super egoaniacal thing of I am innocent. Yeah is about and I'm being persecuted. And it's so sad for me.. I didn't kill my wife. I would never I would never hurt Kathleen. Yes Nothing like that. I will I would never hurt Kathleen conceptually. R. I mean, not really. Yeah. but Yeah It's so fucked up Oh, and then he says in the OE el is, I'm truly innocent of these charges, which of course, when you say truly, it's like, why are you making a why are you making a like a qualifier bl as opposed to regular innocence. Right Yeah truly. But then another quote he says is when I think of Kathleen and he says this in this stcase, when I think of Kathleen, I remember unfortunate what I remember unfortunately is her dying in my arms That's true. She died in my arms. Why do we have to say that? He's like goosing the sympathy. Yeah. And it's also like we think she died hours before that. So him saying, it's true. She died in my arms becausecause the first time he called nine hundred eleven he said she was still alive and the second time he said she wasn't. But based on the neurons, which we need to talk about, the red blood neurons in her brain. She died hours before Then he says then he says He says something about how the last time that was he says when she was walking to go back into the house after they had been sitting outside, that that was the last time he saw her alive. And then he goes,, except for when I found her like he has to be like, o, fuck my story is that I found her alive at the bottom of the stairs. Yeah, which he didn't. He forgot, right. He forgot that was the story. Right. Well, the one thing I was going to say is they talk about the it really bugs me like I when I was watching the documentary, the prosecutorial team, which he hired before there were charges against him. And what another narcissist at creep? Yes, that lawyer. Yeah, what's his name? I dont remember Rudolph, butort of thing. But basically he tries to say there's no way that somebody could beat somebody else with a blow poke in that staircase likeike or with any instrument that would have given her those seven deep lacerations in the back of her head at the bottom of that staircase, there's not enough room. that you couldn't pull that thing up over your head over and over and beat some with that, which is a bullshit because you don't know that's not the blowpke itself. So that it's like predicating everything on this one concept, which is like, we don't know if that'. I don't know if it's a blke that That's the murder weapon. is what I'm saying. Yeah. And also or could he could just be holding it right up to the hill And not it's not like he's got it at the very end. Or I read in another thing that maybe he just hit her head against the stairs Sure. and That's that's And that would take a small hit to open the scalp up and not cause brain or skull fractures, which is one of the points that people made is if he had beaten her, there would be skull fractures, and there wasn't. So if it was an up close hit, there wouldn't be skull fractures Maybe. because she died by bleeding out. She didn't die from a skull fracture. Right Which normally I think most doctors would say, if you fell down the stairs, hit your head a bunch of times, you still wouldn't bleed out.. W wouldn't bleed out that quickly. And you'd have a concussion But the other thing is that then later on, they try they attempt to get a retrial because the neighbor finds a tire iron and then they say they withheld this evidence that prosecution withheld this evidence. and so the defense was like, we need a new trial because they withheld the possibility there could be a prowler that had a tyire iron. So all of the sudden, the same people are arguing the exact same the opposite of what they werere saying, which is like, oh so a prowler could beat her with a tire iron, but he couldn't beat her with a blow. Right That makes sense It's so crazy. Also the bloope hope was missing and later in in the documentary, one of the other son finds the gloow hke in the garage Which is weird Well and the police, who we all know like, you know, its we're very biased in this, but the police in the American justice are like, we went all over that garage. The blow poke was not in the garage. Andid didn't they find the blow poke without the end the tip? Yeah, I mean and they all they did was they didn't find it, leave it where it was, call the copbody to go take pictures They presented it in court to say, we found this. Yeah. And it was on video, right? Like while they were recording the documentary. Yeah.. Yeah. So then we're like, here it is, we found it. here it is, everybody. And then they're just like, well, yeah, you could have any you could put that there. and then the camera was recording, Ohh my Godd, this is so perfect. Yeah. Like that doesn't mean anything, but they were introducing, they were doing that tricky shit of introducing ideas that are like, o probably that. Yeah Um also So there's all these injuries to her head and neck contusions all over her arms and the back of her arms And she has zero injuries to her knees and legs. which you think falling down the stairs you'd absolutely hit your fucking leg. one hundred percent. So then the other thing Oh, can we talk about doctor Henry Lee at home? Oh my go. Oh him spitting that ketchup. Oh my God. It's so and also, you know, they hired him really early. Yeah. They hired they made sure he was available. Like basically these lawyers knew this thing was going to blow up. He was like semi famous authors, so they knew they just they got All their heavy hitters like me knew this could to be a mediate thing. Yeah. and they could they could make it a big thing. that they're going to get if he's the guy that got off, you know, that was it a football player right basasically exonerated for murder Th then they also was like, well, we'll get doct. Henry Lee. He's from the OJ trial. And we'll get these people. And like just line everybody up to what it looks like, here's what it looks like a team of people who get people off. They wouldn't pay this amount of money if they didn't think he was you know what I mean? Yeah Okay, so here, okay, so rare red neurons Okay, basically there were these neurons in Kathleen's brain that were consistent with the brain having a long period like a couple hours lack of oxygen before dying. So essentially it shows that These injuries to her head happened hours before he called nine hundred and eleven and she died And to me, that'sah,, this means she was unconscious a while before she actually died. Right. So that to me, that's all you really need. Like becausecause it's even longer than his claim forty five minutes of like, I was out drinkking by the pool. And when I found her and he's on nine hundred eleven, he's like, she's alive So that would have been forty five minutes. Yeah. And that's not consistent with ave can't Neurons don't lie. Right? That's that's that's deep science. Yeah. Also U the a thyroid cartilage that was that was damaged I can't remember back Yeah Yeah, how they described that? Was it like es you can't break cartilage, right? So it's like but it was hemorrhaging. And so basically, that means when your thyroid cartilage is damaged that's strangulation. Itays a fracture of the thyroid neck cartilage. Okay. So you can fracture it. So but it's pressure on the neck It's indicative of being strangled But it also is hemorrhaged. So she was being strangled. she was alive. This isn't a thing where she fell down the stairs, broke her neck. and that's why that was damaged. She was strangled while alive. Yeah, almost like someone was holding her down. Yeah and also had their foot on the back of her leg to keep her in place and was straddling her at the same time. and that's how he got Blood's batter is on the inside of his shorts. Yeah and just hit her on the back of the head as she was sitting on the stairs, flipped her over so that she looked like she had t down. tried to clean up a little bit. She came back. She came back to consciousness, consciousness, conscious and He had to hit her again, covered up those blood spatters Call n one. I mean Or Powler came in and hit her with an owl We're gonna fuck and do this. The owl theory the idea of the owl theory is from a neighbor, like a nosy neighbor who has nothing to do with the case, but he's like, I know what this is and it can't be him and this is really what it is. When for me people believe it, peopleople totally believe it We're going gonna get to that. And I get the thing where people I was looking up owl injuries today Yeah becausecause I was like, what do those look like compared to what these both of these cases of both of these women with seven lacerations on the back of their head, what do they look like? Not the same. because owl talons look like puncture wounds. R And these and the lacerations are long dragmarky, like cut, deep cut. They'll do the where do they put it? when they put the talon over the wound to show you what it looks like, but actually Owell Tallons it's not three cllaws in the front and one in the back,'s they have three and it's, you know, listen Yes, I'm not a fucking down. It's mostly just those three that go like that. Right. They're kind of like they take up all that sp And the one in the back here. And fun and cool and I like reading about it, but it's not true. I don't think it's true because was there are you then saying you would have to then say That that what's the woman in Germany's name Liz? Elizabeth, Yeahah, Ratcliff. Ratliff. Ratliff. Ratliff. that she was also attacked by now. Like It doesn't make sense because it's the exact same death. Yeah. He's the common denominator Like You may be the fucking owlf found the gate porn Could you imagine that was like, I never use this computer. Yeah. but tonight, that's how fucking ridiculous it is. I mean, look, also with that theory, it was long ago enough that he could have been keeping all of his porn in a little file that said porn underneath it she was like, You know what?'m That's true. What kind of women does he like? Well kind li Maybe was maybe she was fine with him being into gay porn. Like that's my thing about her, it's like maybe he She did know he was bisexual and was okay with it. you know, That's fine. notothing's wrong with that. But I think when you get over into fucking paying for sex territory. Yes. haaving affairs is a different thing. Having an affair with a male escor in your home while you're at work, You know That's An, Kathleen had divorced her fucking first husband because he was having an affair So why did not okay or how, you know, had cheated on her So she's not okay with affairs based on the fact on her history. Fuck, no, Well, no one's okay with affairs. I don't even mean affairs. I mean like you know, open marriages. Yeah. But he did right. in one of the emails to this dude he was trying to hire, I'm a married man to a wonderful woman. U and she know or and, you know, something like that So it's like, it's just such a weird Mindset. It's like he does whatever he wants, right and rationalizes it probably I think you know what would freak me out even more is that The way that Kapleen and Michael met was because When they when after Michael got divorced from his first wife, and I think her name's Pattty, and they moved out, she took the sons, and Michael stayed with the two girls The two girls started playing with Caitlyn in the neighborhood. And that's how Kathleen and Michael met in the first place is because all the girls were friends. Yeah And I don't know why that freaks me out so much, but it's like it's not like they They came together in this weird way that so there's like family photos of them that make me uncomfortable. Like but they're all standing together as like this Brady Bunch family. Y I don't how old were the the adopted girls when Michael and Kathleen got married. They were older. Yeah, because they had they I think those girls met each other when they were like pre teens, maybe. And then that they were together for like eight years. So the fact that they called Kathleen Mom makes me a little uncomfortable. I just the whole Michael just seemed like a cult leador to me and these these two adopted girls who lost. firstirst they lost their biological father, Then their mother died in these insane circumstances. They go to and live with this family family friend and his wife. They divorce. Yeah. The two girls are with this guy They find this great woman and they're like, like it's almost this like, did Michael tellell adopted daughters to call Kathleen Mom in a manipulative way because it would make her want to stick around You know what I mean? Or is it just that they wanted normalcy? Right. And they just were like, okay, great. This landed. We're doing this. like we're building our own family and we're gonna to make this work. Well, the sons called her mom too, didn't they? Yes, but No, they couldn't have. They had their own mom likeike a living mom They did. But that whole dynamic, there's something off about it to me. Well, because in this I keep talking about like it's my pride and joy. In this American justustice there is a part where they are all, and I wonder if the producers of that show manipulated them, but they're all sitting around looking at Christmas pictures And one of the daughter says, oh yeah, this is she loved her stairs. She always had to put her Christmas decorations. And basically she's talking about the front like the staircase. which is a photo of them together in her wedding dress on the stairs. Yeah, so creepy. And but basically it's just her it's them talking about it like, oh, she loved her stairs and like wa And it's but there she goes, it's so cute. And it's just like them all trying to act like, We have the we had the most perfect life. We had the most perfect life. We were so in love. It's almost like I guess what I guess in the staircase The daughters, the adopted daughters feel like they're being paraded to show to give Michael Peters some sympathy that he has a family who supports him. The way they're shown emotionally so much and talked about as and they speak on camera so like you know, emotionally that their dad could never do this. it almost seems like they're being used by him and his side in a way to show to have empathy because he has fucking none. Well, I mean, they it seems like it's absolutely their choice. So. It's what they want to do. and I feel like they understand the importance of if someone is accused of this terrible crime, especially if they're innocent, which they believe he is or at least but there's no room for them to even grapple with that idea otherwise. I don't think you could in that scenario because it would be like This is like now it's us against them.. It's not there's no room for gr. I need my dad. What happened? I need my dad to not have done this. There's Could you imagine? Because then if you did that, then he also, it opens the door to their own mother. Well, they fucking end up okay theirir own mother, their biological mother, Elizabeth, Ratliff, being fucking exhumed. Yes. ' and they think it's gonna prove him innocent. Right. And instead, her cause of death gets changed to homicide. Yes, becausecause they see those fucking lacerations. and it's all mirror image. But instead, everyone is against Michael Peterson And'ss that's his narrative is instead They're against him. right And they're making this stuff up. Maybe it's true because this fucking blood analyst was making shit up. I mean that that's the nothing is simple. That. Nothing is simple and nothing is ever all one way of. These are the good guys and these are bad guys. I have room for the fact that I could be totally fucking wrong about all of this and he might be innocent. one hundred percent, I am not I will never be like Not never, but There's room for that. Yes, there is. This is just how this seems based on the information that I've been able to find And the vibes And the v it's that vibe that's the thing that drives me the craziest is I just want to go, you don't think you're convincing of all people becausecause I don't buy your dump pipe bu. eyebrows in that pipe are not fooling me. And also it's just I'm like, I'm a conoisseur of good acting and this is not good acting all. And why are you acting to begin with? Yes. Wh can't good bad? It's like you can still tell acting whether it's good or bad. Why are you bothering? The thing that we both named, the thing that I played a recording of is terrible acting, it is inappropriate. It the there is absolutely nothing genuine about it whatsoever. It is is rehearsed It's like bad community theater. It's the first time of him speaking to the media too. he thinks that's what's going to make them get on his side. Yes. because he doesn't understand basic human emotions such as If you're crying and you are freaking out about what's going on, people are on your side because they're like, that's a real emotion.. That's how he's real. And now I can hear the people that would argue of like nobody grieves the same or he was in a pos grieving. He was in a position that nobody could anticipate or imagine. Well then why H' corny ass fucking state. Exactly right This isn't like they trapped him on the street and forced him to give a statement. This was him breaking his silence to the press and giving an official statement Th these are the words he thought would work. Yeah. so talk you. Yes It's so crazy D Now I told you that the way I realized he was He was guilty. Tell me. I had then watching It was the last season of Breaking Bad. I'm pretty sure it was the last season And it was right the end where everything's going crazy and Walt keeps having to leave and then he comes back to the family and you know his wife's like, what. And he was always lying. And there was a part where He is trying to, you know, the thing where he would always make breakfast. So he's trying to make breakfast and look, I'm making breakfast pancakes every normalcy. And he is as I think either his son or his wife are trying to talk to him and he's opening these drawers and kind of going, what? No, yes, of course. And like keep fucking with the cupboards and doing stuff while answering questions and like trying to pretend to think, but then doing stuff with the cupboards There is an almost exact scene in the staircase where Michael Peterson is in the kitchen and they're like asking in some really kind of crucial you know M and he is doing Walt Exactly from Breaking Bad, where it's like it was such a mirror thing where I was like, whoa, he's totally lying. It was the exact same thing. Cranston watch that? I wonder. Brian Crston. That's what I meant Bry Krston watched that Did Jonathan Overholold watch it? Listen, There's a Jonathan Krston out there, I bet you, anything. You went to high school with him. You loved him. B You wan to know. I watched Breaking Bad. I bought meth from him It's fucking crazy. I know I just got this weird chill where I was like, oh Brian Cranston made that acting choice because that's what it looks like when you lie. And when you're trying to make it seem casual and to give yourself time to answer, because you look like you're focused on something else. Yep and you're not. I'm so distracted by panckake. I'm in the middle of a what's that? Yes. It's like the weirdest And for me, I was like, that's it. it's over. If I was on the jury, I'd be like, full on full on death penalty. Well, at the end of My American Jess your favorite my favorite American favorite hour of TV show ever. Thank you, Vu Curtis for your service to us as true crime listeners watchers. You don't know how much you mean to us. Do he Bhill Curtos, see that he does? Oh N do he know? Yeah I don't know, I don't think he could possibly understand how much we love him. Yeah. as a Remember in the very beginning, the very first live show we did was that show in Chicago that was for the Chicag podcast festival. Weew Bill Curtis. Somebody said that they might be able to get us a Bill Curtis walk on and we were like Oh my go, it was like we were so excited for so long, but Bill Curtis, our Lord and Savior, he was busy. Anyhow At the end of this American Justice my television show that I produce, there's a jailhouse interview with Michael Peterson. And in it he says I'm in here, I'm as free as I would be out there And to me, that's that thing of like the truly Psychotic where he's basically saying you haven't gotten me. Yeah. Like you can do anything you want, but you haven't gotten me. It's also like this the system is so messed up outside of here, like the government and your life and stuff. It's the same as in here. when really instead of being like, I'm in here because I killed my wife Right, or I'm in here because of a huge miscarriage of just. please do something. there's a camera. Like he's okay with it. I'm innocent, I'm innocent. I didn't kill her.. None of that's happening. He's like Look, what your life he basically is trying to say some bullshit theory of like, you know whether your life is heaven or hell, it's all in your mind. And he's like at peace with it He's yes, basically. he goes, I'm not saying I like jail obviously, but Like and but it's this thing where to me it's what it is about Michael Pearson, which is to me what's fascinating about killers and psychopaths and all these people where They have they have to do it. They have to win. They can't not say that thing. So even if it's going to make them look even guiltier That's his emo is letting you know He has to tell you. You didn't get me. Yes, I'm wearing this jail outfit. Yes, I'm in here, but no, I'm actually free.. So you know, almost this like he thinks of himself as this beautiful miscarriage of justice. Yeah and this like he's a martyr. He's a martyr. Yeah. ye. Yeah And it's like, dude, this isn't the he Y wife is dead. Right. There's no there's no talk of her. Yeah Oh know I know. But that American justice was made in like two thousand four or five. So they had no idea that this story continues for quite some time after. Well, that's what's funny about this un novel idea episode of Forensic Vs, which you can watch on YouTube is that I think that they get so Of course, it's before we find out all of these issues around it. and our friend Dirty Duayne is in it like being interviewed as the guy who solved the case. Yeah And so that's problematic. But I think really if you ignore that, I think that That episode gets it correct. The whole thing is Correct It's just the shit that happens afterwards is problematic So it's so funny that this like dated forensic files withithout the, you know, fucking addendums and shit. Yeah I think it's correct I do too. I mean but it does it really well to show you exactly why he's guilty And then so much shit comes out later. That whole thing was like, what is real? Nothing I mean Blood spatter evidence Exts are fraudulent to the core where it's not even a real thing. Yeah, You can't even you can't even rely on them Who can you rely on? Whoever the other person is that's made up their specialty of like, no, no, no, I did this in my basement. Don't worry. I tested it out on myself. We had a great time. Here's the video. We laughed, we loved Well shit, that's fucking Michael the murder of Kathleen Peterson by Michael Peterson. And in Stehven's timeline that I was reading off of, he said that those French documentarians have another as yet to be released as of december twenty seventeen, but they have a third Yeah, they're working on a third documentary because he was released this year Yeah, he got so he did an Alfred plea, which we know from the West Memphis three basically says that you know that the state has enough to convict you, but so you're You're agreeing that they have enough to convict you, but you didn't you're still saying you're not guilty. Yeah. You're not pleading guilty, rightight. Yeah. So he's out now. Yeah, he had a time served situation, right which we don't meaner get into All right, No no, no, I just mean like he served eighty six month and now and it's concurrent with them. Yeah, all of the way he gets out and gets bonds and in between shit and all that him going in and out of jail is like imagine if that was a black man. How you would have would have never seen that person again. Yeah. the way this keeps just getting entertained because this does happen to other people when it's like, oh, yeah, this all of this has to get thrown out Yeah And they don'ttly throw up a bond and like, hey, let's get this person outity. Yeah. Hey, this blood spatter Eis has lied in thirty four cases. I bet he's lied in these other ones as well. now it doesn't turn around like that. It doesn't at all. No I wonder what Christmas is like with fucking Michael Peterson, what do you think this Christmas is gonna to be like? everyone. Well, so at the last so the second addendum French documentary, the staircase T new electric Fogalo. I have to say it every time. Uh In that one, one of the daughters I kind of like that they were not naming their names because I feel like they Re? let them live their lives. And also just they're they're really kind of the subject of this documentary. It's like they it's so much pain for them. It's been so horrible for them the whole way. I almost want to go like, if you need to fight and believe that please do that because yes, because it just sucks that their other sister is on the other side, you know, that the right in the part two One of the sisters no longer is speaking out for Michael Peterson. Okay. Uh Well, the daughter, Caitlyn, Kathleen's actual biological daughter said that when she saw the autopsy there's like this beautiful quote by her that's somewhere here says the only thing I have to say is that the trial and all the subsequent fallout is that if there was any closure to possibly come from all of this, it came after sitting through the entire trial and listening day after day to all the evidence on both sides. And after the closing arguments, when all was said and done, I felt confident that I knew what happened. I knew what happened to my mom, while there's no true closure that can ever come from an event like this for a lost this deep I was ready to walk away and start moving forward with my life. And that's Caitlin No thinking that Michael Peterson killed her mother. Right Yeah, itays sad and not feeling caught up that Yeah herer stepfather was also being persecuted or she just was kind of like I this. Yeah It's just awful. It is, it's intense. I'm glad we did it together. Yeah Okay, we're back. Yeah, Karen, do you want to read us the update? I will do the updates for this part of the story. Okay. Michael Peterson sold the house that Kathleen died in. He still lives in Durham. He lived with his ex wife, Patricia for two years. She unfortunately died of a heart attack He now lives in a ground floor apartment. Whaty is that information about? Well, because it's a ground floor apartment with no stairs. And it's an important accommodation, according to his defense attorney, David Rudolph, who we have spoken to on this show. And he talked about that at his recent crime con experience that that was a stipulation of where Michael Peterson was supposed to live That's so fucked up. It's really weird, but it's also that thing where I mean, we've talked about it, but the idea that in this story, when it comes to light, that this an accident happened in Germany where she was there and another woman died by falling down the stairs. That doesn't happen once in someone's life, let alone twice. I feel like the judgmental part of me is just like we're done here. Yeah. and it's kind of a satisfying thing. That's the logical part of you, not the judgmental part of you. Right? It is What I don't understand is how you haven't watched the fucking twenty twenty two HPO Max miniseries. I didn't do the script case. I know. It's really good. It's Tony Colltte and you knew this areone for They're both so incredible. Yeah. There is really setting sex scene in it that I won't tell you Well I'm so you have to watch it. It'. It's like you should have said that or weird. It's like a weird thing that you're like, how did they get these actors to do that? 'causeuse I would' have been like, I'm out. Oh actors love stuff like that. It's like, I'll tell you after this. Okay, I won't say it. Oh. Okay. Now it's time to get into good thingsings of the week, a thing we used to do on this show. We used to have good things to talk about. We used to force ourselves to really silver lining this thing. Summers for adventures, road trips and adding a whole lot of miles to your car. That's why it's worth stopping at Valvalinee Instant Oil change first. If you need an oil change, make the smart stop at Valvalinee Instant Oil change before you hit the highway. Their trained techs can help you get road trip ready with an oil change and an eighteen point maintenance check included with every oil change, checking your tire pressure, wipers, lights, and more. That means they're checking important things before you're halfway to your aunt's house with no cell service. And these aren't just any techs. 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Well, I was just thinking about how different both of our lives were before we started this podcast or when we started this podcast and when we kind of came together at the Halloween party and I lied about H haavevingt watched the staircase 'cause it sounded right and just how grateful I am thisod by this podcast and the listeners and the community. and I mean, It' kind of a rough. We think we were both kind of in different reasons and rough. of our lives and going through some of our own shit and this podcast is changed that completely and made my life into this beautiful fucking thing that I'm so happy for and grateful for And you know, if all we ever do is a hundred episodes, This is been one of the highlights of my life. For real, like one I It feels like a dream It's so true. It's been insane I love you very much. I love you too, Karen. And I love that you thought to do this and made me come to your house to do it. I love that you said okay. But it was one of those things where was just like in starting to do it It was just like, oh yeah, this is like evenven if it's just for us It's so much fun. That conversation we just had about this S case, even when we were arguing about certain things was so much fun. That's all I want to do. I know it's the best. It's so much fun. But also because and sometimes it's been I will say this, I Totally agree and every I mean, that's part of the fun for me has been this experience of basically kind of standing in the center of an explosion with you and getting through it with you and like truly growing with you, I feel. my God.. But there have been times where, you know when we started out, we said whatever the fuck we wanted because we were just in your house And then you know of course then we went through like a teenage phase where we got super self conscious because people started going, you're saying this word wrong and you're doing wrong and you have the wrong thoughts and you have the wrong idea. And we're like, you have to do this right. Yes. And then we got real worried about what if we lose people or what if we you know, and there's just all it's like the natural growth process