Final Conviction and Closing Thoughts

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WeatherTech is built for all of those summer things, allowing you the freedom to go all in. WeatherTech is an American made premium product built to last and easy to clean. If you're going all out this summer, you need WeatherTech. Visit weatherteech dot com today Goodbye. Where does summer take you? Maybe it's a coastal road trip or a quiet morning with the windows wide open. Summer smells like bright citrus, warm sand and endless possibilities. With Pur's smart diffiffusers and the new summer collection, you can restore your sense of place and bring those unforgettable moments right into your living room. Find your summer escape today pureure. com to learn more. Goodbye Hello and welcome to reewind with Karen in Georgia. This is a show where we unlock the diary of our old episodes with the key of our current feelings us case That was amazing, right? That's exactly what we're doing. Well, that's the work of Alice Auust. Oh, it's written right there. It's written on this piece. I just fucking ust blew that out of your brain. Well, that's good writing. But it's already there and it sounds real natural. I good acting. Okay, todayoday, It's good reading Today we're rewinding episode ninety nine, which we named Shin kick. Sin kick. I wonder why. Let's find out. This episode originally came out on december seventh, twenty seventeen. So let's get into the intro of episode ninety nine Do you hear the sounds Of the podcast train. Of the ghost podcast train. Oh, there hasn't been a ghost podcast train in twenty five yearss That voice has gone totally into a southern Bell area that where it doesn't belong. I love it there. I want to stay there. It wass supposed to be an old A minor forty nineer. Yeah. but now I've changed the scene. I don't care. I love it there Great, Thankk you for your support. Welcome to my favorite murder. Yes. We that's Georgia Hard Start. That's Karen Kilgara. And we' heard to talk to you about a couple things called crimes and true Truthness. We love truthness We also enjoy talking about crimes. We'll never lie to you Well not get things right? Yes, not intentionally. Right. right But we won't lie. But there will be times where we deeply mislead you and get you to say the wrong thing to your friends and coworkers in a braggy voice. But they'll believe you because of your tone. right and your delivery. What we're telling you is it's all about tone in incantation It's all about incantations and it's all about spells. And it's about having short term jobs. you don't have to go back and see the same people after like two weeks because you've lied to them so much. God. You meet one person in the eight jobs you've had as a temph, that's like you're the best person you've met, then they you will go on to marry that person. Right. This is our guarantee to you it don't lie to you. Look around the office right now. is your eighth person Your future spouse, right. Sitting near you. pick them. You have fifteen seconds. Kick them. ick them. kick them. I'd rather you kick them. Kicking them is a great way to start the flirting. If you take it from me, seven year old Karen Kilgareiff A good shin kick There's no better way to say I love you. Karen has stuck with her flirting technique and she'll never let it go. and we like your tenacity. Thank you. I feel like like having a big butt is going to come into fashion. I just have to wait it out. There was a time where I thought, no, kicking people in the shins would never come into fashion in terms of flirting. But so many things have. Kicking in the shints going to be the only way we let anyone know to break through to say, hey, you matter to me.. So prep yourself before you, rck your shins I give a really quick shout out to the two ladies. Please do The two fucking So we just finished our last weekend tour of twenty seventeen. Y in Saint Louis and Kansas City was a fucking amazing fun weekend. Weet a bun. Thankk you. We meet a bunch of awesome people after the show at the meet and greet. and everyone like every fourth person comes up in a shirt a homemade, my favorite murder shirt that's just funny and weird and shit that we don't remember saying or is like something they drew. it's always funny. Oh, there was two girls that had stay sexy you don't get murdered in wingings. Yes. That I And I was like, do people oh no, it was yeah, SSDGM wingings R And I was like, anyone is anyone able to read wingings off the dome and then know what that says? And they were like, not yet. This is the fast That was great. And then there were two other ladies and they had shirortts that just said promo code, murder. And I was just like, you fucking subtlest fuck, badass bitches. so hard. L it never even crossed our minds that that was like a funny thing. The Wingtangs also included a bomb. Yeah. because don't I think a murdered must be bomb. Right Well, there was a bomb at the end, like the little like cartoon bomb. But I thought those things only represented the letter Yeah, o, so it wouldn't be murder, but but I just thought it was coincidental. that a bomb would be in there because it was SS, I think it was the D was a bomb. I don't know somethingomething in there. It doesn't matter. It was still great. It was the bomb. It was great a great looking. It was the bomb. Also, someone in Kansas City By the time it got back to us, we got so many nice presents and thanks you guys. We got tons of stuff backstage. There's a lot of people that were worried saying, we gave you something and then they took it away from us. the shit you guys bring the theater is like, you cannot bring that in here. You can't bring the severed head of Ted Bundy into our theater. Please don't But it's actually a cake. Sorry, you can't Yeah So we got a whole table full. It was like Christmas backstage for us. Somebody made plastic baggy filled with the best chocolate chip cookies I've ever had. I think there was either rice Krispies or corn flakes in them. So they were really small and crispy. Whoever did that, God bless you. I ate maybe six of them just standing there talking. We got a full cheesecake? Oh my Godd, people went crazy for that cheesecake. We got a haunted scary clown The doll It's over there. Yeah. so these these lovely women, these two women brought I don't know where the fuck. They must have foundounded it. Like I think they said a second handand shop. Yeah. And they werere like Somehow they sound we're like Karen and Georgeia need this. like what does that say about us? It was like a raagedyian homemade clown doll from the seventies knitted, knitted that like clearly whatever child it was terrified of it. because it didn't look like it had been touched. No. Because one side of the clown's face, one side of the clown was a happy clown And then you turned it over, And we're going to post it. And it was the most terrifying clown sad face you've ever seen. Yes, with silver tears knitted onto the face. Stehven, you're gonna to have to post it. o. It is so upsetting. And also the best part was the way the girl, this was in Stain. Louis. Yeah, the way the girl walked up s a woman, sorry, always do that She held it. like she was also a ghost. Like she walked up really weird and stiff and kind of like really slow. She had been looking forward to giving this to us for two months and she was like, finally it's here. Yes. It was so good. Everything about the presentation, she said to me, she goes Turn it over. Yeah. And then it was horror show Yeah. So anyway, you guys will see it, Stephven. I was gonna to say wing dings, the bomb is M I'm in murder. Yep. right. Okay. Perfect. So am. It just happens to be a bomb. Look at that. It's so perfect for us, tooud. Wingings was made for us. Oh my god, Winginkings. Wingings is like my personal I didn't know I loved like because I've loved a lot of fonts, mostostly times New Romans, but wingdangs You know I only use Georgia font. I know. But from here on out, I'm doing my fucking bullet journal only in wingangs from now on. Gbye. Oh, it's so perfect. Hey byye bye Uh o, what do you have? I was gonna say A couple things about my sweet Adrerina. because I was talking about it over the weekend with people I care because I don't. I really care so much and I know that there are people who like sped through reading it and there are people who responded of like I thought we were gonna do a told them we were doing a thing and then we were like, nope, goodbye. She' like if we're not this is episode ninety nine, if you don't know that by now. Yeah Llakearoo, except for I really it's just taking me forever to read it because I this book, I've been tacking it on two fronts, which is I have the hard time. copy next to my bed like an old widow and then I eat out a box of chocolates as I read it. And then I also have the audio book. So I was listening to it on the plane. And I just would like to read a couple. That makes me so happy. Oh And also so many people have said you have to listen to Teen Creeps because they have this great episode on this, but I don't want to listen to that until I am done reading this book so it doesn't influence what I'm saying in any way. Sure. If that makes sense. Okay So I will definitely do that because so many people have recommended it, even our own Stehven. They did an episode of what episode was it? Well, they've done my C Regina, but I was just gonna saya. I've been on the podcast twice and it's been really fun.. Lindseay and Kelly are really sweet. They They I mean, the fact that they read a book every week to do this podcast is incredible. what? Oh but it's mostly YA. Yeah, it's all like Arlstein and Oh Christopher Py wr this shit's ye., that's two hundred pages. Yeah. How do they do it? Read me a thing. Okay. We have to write a book report. They have to read a book. They have to read a book and talk report and report it Um, Okay, so I'm now in the part where she meets Now, I don't have his name written here. boring old Adrina. She We're boring old, second best. Nobody likes you. up Adreina. You're not the dead one, therefore you're not as good Adrina. Calm down, Adrina. her. Second best, secondcond place is first loser. First is the worst, second is the worst or second is verser She goes into the forest, which she's constantly forbidden to go into. stupid. We've told you by her family. How many times? She's nine. A quick reminder for people. She's nine years old. Then she goes into the forest. there's a home in the forest where and of course, I'm picturing it like full on gingerbread house. and in the house is a boy I think his name is Auden and then his mother lives there too And she hides behind a tree and watches him raak the yard. And in the book it's talking about like how he has a hot ass and shit. He's twelve years old. I swear to God. you see Andrew's okay? I mean, I think she's just laying out a lot of like let' let's just break all these taboos. Th She gets caught being in the woods being a peeping stalker. Yeah. a nine year old stalker U And so her father es storming in, grabs her, E interaction with her and her father, I get so nervous it's going to boil over into incest. Every time they talk or have breakfast or whatever, there's so much inappropriate like intensity. But at one point start he says to her, common people will drain your specialness I had to write it down because shes say he's saying like you're too good to talk to those people in the woods. Oh, you, Adreenau We're making you the creepiest creeping creepo. Yeah. Don't talk to common people there' fucking. She's like, take my specialness, please. I'm so sick of this specialness, but she' a quick reminder, she's a nine year old and her hair is all colors and her eyes are all colors. What the fuck was that? like it's like she's a calico child And that's part of her specialness. Oh also, the description of when Vera gets spanked by Daddy. Oh yeah. And it's down to like her ass burning through her thin underwear. Like it gets into a detail where I'm like, noope, this is. I think we need to talk to VC Andrews. We need available? I don't know We need to have a little fucking quicky convo with her. I mean ook, it really it just it goes right up to the edge then and then scatters back and then kicks it in the shin. Oh, and then I said this at the show the other night, but my favorite, I'm assuming it's a misprint It's she describes somebody and I'm pretty sure it's Cousin Vera coming down the hall, clumsily clumbering whichich I'm like I'm almost positive clumbering isn't a word. Clumbering makes so much sense though. It makes more sense, but you cant if you're gonna say clumbering and not lumbering. you don't need clumsy as well. Get clumsy out of there and get a different adjective without the CL at the beginning because now you're clumsily clumbering is your borderline like Rod doll, why don't you just start singing a song Opalpa style. And it's like, okay, stop tripping over your own fucking feet. Yeah, you know, who Vera one She's a big fucking clumber. It's the girl. Okay. Speaking of books about children, I have one to talk about. Okay, but this is a bad one. I mean, not this is a batter. this is a real one. Okay. So last week we got in our PO box a couple books from a woman who lives in Ohio and gave us two like Ohio true crime books. You took one. And I kept the other and started reading it and I am halfway through not fucking obsessed with it. Okay. so good. This is a woman named Karen sent these to us And it's this one's called Amy, My seearch for her killer, Here I'll show it to you because this is a true crime one. Her name's Amy Mahoavvk. She's from a Cleveland suburb. and she disappeared in October of nineteen eighty nine. and this dude, James Renner, who's the author,'s like pitched it to his newspaper in town that he was working on. and now this whole book is written by him trying to find out and going through fucking each suspect and talking to the you know the the main investigator, the FBI agents, the fucking family. And it's written so well and he inserts himself in the book in a way that doesn't suck. Yeah because he was the same age as she was when she disappeared in a town over and like so it's part of him in the way that westandight. Yeah. The way that we remember growing up and seeing this person's face and how much it meant to us. And it is such a fucking good book. Amazing. And I can't wait to finish it So it's it's by it's called Amy, a search for My seearch for her killer by James Renner. And I'm totally obsessed with it. And in case you can't find it because it looks pretty U It's called it's published by Greay and compompany publishers WWW. grayco. com G sorry, GRAY. So if you can't find it in normal ways, it's on gryco. com. It's written so well, James Rinner. You can like You can tell how much it means to him when he's writing it and it makes the book so heartfelt and interesting and wonderful. and I really love it. Yeah. that's awesome. Yeah. He's got a good face. He does Yeah. You really did a lot of that. Yeah. Dang girl. All weekend, I've been reading that.. Girl I know. instead of drinking. I can't drink too much because I want to read this book Thanks, James. He's fucking cred my alcohol as well. No, that's right. James, James, you should send him a Starbucks card. Oh, I swear to God that wasn't an intentional segue, but I would like to thank Live Nation? Yes. No, no, no. I went to Starbucks the other night in Glendale because just running errands and it was the night before I get so weird before we leave we travel. and I have to buy things that I wantan to make sure are there when I get back. I get real OCD weird. Plus you like you're like black dress, I need a black dress and all that. No notothing I actually need I do things like I need coffee. so I have coffee here when I get back. Like weird. whatever that means? It's just like, it's part of my not wanting to leave the house in the first place So I start telling myself like, if I go, I won't be ready. Yeah, there's I have a real stalking problem. But I went is Adreina. So' the second and worst shitty Audreina. Creepiest and peepiest Audreina. The creepiest peepiest, stockiest ever. nine year old behind a rain tree the fucking twelve year old butt Adreina. There's like a whole picnic scene where I'm like, nine year olds and twelve year olds don't go on picnics. twelve olds are a hundred years apart. Yes.obody No twelve year old wants to talk to a nine year old. unless she has hair that's purple, gold, yellow orange and red Okay, so I went to the I went to the The Starbucks closest to the designer shoe warehouse. And I went in and the only coffee they had out was Christmas blend. So I asked the girl behind the counter If they had Italian, that's my kind U She says, hold on, I'll get my coworker to go look for it. Are you a fascist? A little bit. Okay. Yeah I only I like Italy just from like nineteen thirty five. to write around forty three. Fair enough. The girl comes out of the back holding like the one bag of Italian. and when she the doors fly open she's like Oh my go And then I was like, hey I was like, that's for me. And she's like Okay, I love your podcast. And then this is that's my favorite reaction when people seem genuinely bummed. like they don't want to say it, but they've already acted weird. Yeah. And it was super cute anyway, long story short. She didn't act weird. That sounds judgmental She was very sweet and seemed happy and surprised. And then she gave me a free pound of coffee. And I was like, wait, hold on, I don't want you pay for my coffee. And then she wass like, No, we get a free pound every week It was like heround she would have had at home with her roommates. That's right. I'd like to take that away from her. Right. so thank you too. Thank you to Mariah at the Glendale Starbucks. You fronten me your friends and family coffee That's what she said anyway. Friends and fascists coffee. Thank you, Mariah. My mussolini sips I love it. I love Italians. I love the way they make coffee. Did you come home from your trip happay that you had coffee? Yes. Preground. Aready the thing? Come on. 'causeuse the mistake I always make is then, oh, forget, I'll just get the whole bean at the grocery store. No No, never. Terrible. Listen. Creates look, it creates garbage on your counter don't want that. Can't have it. Stehven's got one. Stehven's pointing at a thing. Oh good. okay. Stehven almost deleted this entire episode of The magic. The magic that just happened. You wouldn't, I mean, you heard it. How could any of that get recaptured I love thinking of people who start this podcast this late on and the way we start this thing is like a word puzzle. Like who the fuck would know what was going on? Why are they talking about my sweet Adrena and kicking people in the shins Oh, it's the first night of Hanuka Oh yeah. A Hanuka Miracle happened today. What was it? So My thing my thing that I'm looking I'm happy about this week at the end of the episode was going to be that my mom and I are going to therapy on Thursday. She's coming with me to therapy. Wow. We're gonna to sit in therapy together and work out why she's such a fucking stupid bitch. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're gonna work some shit out. I' work it out because we're fighting right now and not speaking Here's what happened. I accidentally told her it was Tuesday, our therapy appointment So she called me and I was like, Wh the fuck are you? She was like, whereere are you? And so I made her come meet Vince and I for lunch we work some shit out. Oh that's good Re well. yeah. Oh, that's good. So everything's good now. Are you still gonna go She can't. She has to work on Thursday. Yeahes. so it's not it wouldn't have had like It wouldn't have happened because I fucked it up. Yeah. But we talked and argued and Vince being there made it really great because he's such a good mediator and everything. So everything's fine now. fine. Ething's, you know human you now A you but Are you gonna get her to go or you think that that window is closed? No, no, she'll come. She's been offering it for years and I've always been like, that's fucking condescending, fuck you. You think that like coming to therapy and so you can tell me what's wrong with you know, I've been. But does she go to therapy? Oh yeah, we all go to therapy. Oh, okay. everyveryone in my family goes to fucking therapy. Got it. Yeah That was a Hanka miracle Amazing. Yeah. that you got to do it out of the office. Right. Yeah, that it's still we still were able to talk about what happened. Oh, that's good. And her mean text to me. So thank you, Yahweh. Yes. and the Angel Gabriel And Areinna. And the first and first and best, Adrerena. That's all. thank you. That's all her. She had white hair, I believe. White. Yeah, it was in fucking changey color, you know? Like a fucking monster. It was't a fucking cuttlefish. Please Oh Oh Eleva What's the little Oh my Godd. Jesus. What's the one? Tiny Tim It's a happappy Christmas, everyone. Is that it Is that it? No L like you just revealed that you've been like a spy, a Russian spy deep Deep state Russian spy. aledge to Scrooge. Happy Christmas everyone. I said it was a Hukah M miracle, allv was fucking this insane Siamese cat screamed and then I said it's a happappy Christmas everyone.. Sorry, that just reminded me. My favorite shirt of the weekend was the woman who was wearing a shirt that said makeake Paul onions proud. almost lost my mind. I don't It's why is wrong with you people. It's the best best people, ever funniest best. Who wants to go first? I went first at the insane Kansas City S that'll never be posted. That is one of my favorite shows. So sometimes you guys will have Well, like if we sell out a show really, really quickly, our amazing wonderful tour agent Joe Schwartz will be like, you guys at a late show. And we'll be like, okay, and then we're like, why did we do that? It's really hard to do it. It's pretty hard. Second show. and so we get on there and we're fucking hopped up on diet Coke and fucking coffee and cocaine and cocaine. And like manyni twwixs bars and we go up and it's fucking bananas. And this one was especially bananas. I say yours was great. You saved it It work Here's the thing It just is like such a roll of the dice. We're doing a thing that you probably should not do for a live show, which is we don't know what the other person's gonna talk about, which makes it really fun and is the best part. But then like on that one, with mine, I felt like I was in a car sliding on ice like skidding into a brick wall. I went first last time So I'll go first. Okay And we're back. That's right We're back. We are back. B in good old twenty twenty six. twenty twenty six than you. Here's the thing, it's like back then, we were on the road a lot and we were the hardest version of us being on the road, which was three cities a weekend. Multiple cities a weekend. Yeah. Vince driving us in a minivan fromom city to city to city I't think we knew we could say no to anything? No, we kind of couldn't. We kind of Yeahah. And I mean, it paid off. Yes, it did. We're here today. And we had a real good time. We had a great time. I mean, we ate so many egg bites from Starbucks that neither of us can eat them anymore. The amount of bad eating I did while going, I have to stop eating like this, but there was literally I shouldn't say literally, but almost no choice because the nighttime menu for room service. I'm not complaining about room service. I will never complain about room service. We're so privileged. And you could get chicken strips or mac and cheese. and a Caesar salad and mac and cheese. Yeah, and that's it. And that's we did that. So we did it over and over again. This is where we tried to start the My swweet Audreina Book Club and it doesn't work. this is the first of our terrible book clubs. Well You know what's funny is like we should have a book club, but we can't figure out how to do it in a way that would be effective as a weekly podcast. Be we're interesting. I certainly cannot read a book, not only in a week in I'd say three months.'t I can't get that homework done. I can listen to a book in three days. Yeah. but then I've neglected everything else in my life. Yeah. except for like vacuuming or things you can do while you're listening to my nails. Okay, so no real big update on Amy M Halovic's murder, the book I read of James Reenners. It remains unsolved as of today. invvestigators have continued pursuing new DNA and forensic genealogy testing in the case And James Renner, who's our friend now has remained active the in true crime media and cold case advocacy work through books, podcasts, and forensic genealogy work Amazing. Yeah. loveve his work. We also almost deleted this episode famously which is Breezy. That I do that. So easy breezy with the delivery of these episodes. To this day, the thought I'm not recording. It still gives me chills. Like I thought of like, did I hit record? haveave we've done it, I think in COVID, I did it one time. Yeah, I did it once and I think you've done it once. I think For like full episodes where we get to the end We're like, haahaha. What a good time we had. We need to make a promo code murder merch. We've never done that. Oh, that's a really good idea. Thank you. I just came up with it. That's not true. It's from It's from ten years ago But we'll how we're gonna do it. Now Nicole and Vanessa, we would pull them in and get this done. It's not all me making our merch anymore. No, that's right. On fucking cut and paste. Romacood murder would be really cute. Cat would be very hurt too hear you say that. Oh Kat. Oh, no, no, She did decorate it. Yeah. then I have to like pick out the blanks and upload no, no, no, you did it all. I didn You started our merched economy. It's incredible. Thank God, you did it. You pulled my house out of foreclosure You had to do all those things and then show me the piece of paper that said, here's how much we made this week. Handwritten, scribbled. Yeah. Okaykay. Anything else? Oh, oh, oh, oh This is the episode where we are given The haunted doll. Can we show pictures? Pot of casell? You don't remember. Oh my God. It's the doll, with two faces. Can we see the other side? Happy f. Oh no It's the scariest like homemade raggedy ann knitted. This was given to us in twenty seventeen at our Staint Louis stop Okay A legendary show. Yeah that we talk about often. But somebody came backstage and was like, I got this and now you're going to have it. And we kept it for as long as we could and then you took it back out onto the road and gave it away. amm I right? No, you know don't think I did. Also, first of all, this is the first gift or curse AKA. And it's very clear with the answ. said no gifts. I think we packed it into mail I think they were sending a listen or something. And we put it in the box and sent it with it. That's mean and made them take it. Made them have. Who is that person? write us. We We're sorry. Are you still alive? O did this doll kill you? Yes Jesus Christ. Who has this doll? We would love for you to reach out so we can bring you back into the fold and talk about how Your life has either improved or fallen apart since we sent you this doll. probablyroably deproved. What if it deproved terribly and it's all our fault? Well, the point was that she had to then give it to someone unwittingly. Like it just has to go on and on. L we got it unwittingly.. She got it unwittingly. This is a chain letter a doll of a haunted It's like a hot potato erry do You know why? It's the knitter, someomeone's great aunt who put this thing together decided that when they were gonna to do the sad face, they were just gonna do white yarn, whereas the happppy face has a nice flush to it. And somehow thatue their eyes look like they're bleeding. Yeah There's a lot of That's like a doll the person died in an ice storm. That's the feeling I get The soul of the person who diedag inized herom was in that doll. It It's so scary. All right, let's stop talking. Let's get into aing story about Jennifer Pan. Summers for adventures, road trips, and adding a whole lot of miles to your car. That's why it's worth stopping at Valvalinee Instant Oil change first. If you need an oil change, make the smart stop at Valvalinee inststant Oil change before you hit the highway. Their trained techs can help you get road trip ready with an oil change and an eighteen point maintenance check included with every oil change, checking your tire pressure, wipers, lights, and more. That means they're checking important things before you're halfway to your aunt's house with no cell service And these aren't just any techs, Valvaline instant oil change techs complete over two hundred and seventy hours of training, so your car's in capable hands. The best part, you can stay in your car and you're in and out in about fifteen minutes. So before your next long summer ride, pull into Valvaline instant oil change. Valvaline inststant oil change, change wisely Ge! Summer is all about saying yes, going out and bringing the mess home in your car. Sand, grass, and melting snacks will inevitably hit a ride. But with Weather Tech, you can live life to the fullest. WeatherTech floor liners, cargo liner, and seat protectors allow you to keep up with your summer adventures without the worry. Weather Tech is built for all of those summer things, allowing you the freedom to go all in. WeatherTech is an American made premium product built to last and easy to clean. If you're going all out this summer, you need Weather Tech. Visit weatherTech dot com today Goodbe. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. It's twenty twenty six and if you have an alternative career like food photography or professional mixtape making or witchcraft, you're gonna need an online presence. Whatever your thing is, Squarespace helps you build a website that's as unique as you are. Squarespace provides you everything you need to offer services and get paid all in one place. From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. Get paid on time with professional invoices and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. with Sarespace' collection cutting edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful, professional online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Head to squarespace. com slash murder for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code Murder to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye bye Now this story U Guy Braham told me to do this a while ago when we were doing shows in Toronto But I said, no, it's when he told me about it, I read up a little bit and then I was like, o, it's too singular or it's too like doesn't have enough I don't know, bells and whistles or whatever. Body. And then body? Body. Yeah. But then I read it. and That's not the case. And I knew it was a good story because for me this story causes me more and more and more anxiety as I read it. So I'll tell you about this is This is the story of Jennifer Pan Oh You know this one Yes. Okay. then I love it. So I realized in reading these articles, what I found was that the real like mother like the source of this story Yeah, exactly. The original yeast dough of this story was from an article written by a woman named Karen K Ho a name I'll remember for the rest of my life for I guess a magazine called Toronto Life, becausecause this girl knew Jennifer Pan and grew up with her, so was kind of giving a different L a different view of how of the whole thing. I feel like it's always different when the person who's writing the story knows what the town was like, where they're from. You know what I mean? Like because it can be like any fucking small town or suburb or whatever, when you know what it's like Yeah and what the person what the high school is like and what the curriculum and what the person'spect expectations are. Yeah, this the context because context. And this one yes, and like it's the family context, especially in this story because this is one of those stories about what they call the dragon parents. So there'siger tiger moms are one thing. but then there's another term that they were using in all these articles and it wasra dragon parents or dragon father. So I think it's the ones that are way more intense. It's not just like it's the kind that are insanely restrictive and insanely strict and tough with really high expectations where there's kind of, you have no choice. There's failure is not an option.. Okay. So on november eighth, twenty ten At around nine thirty PM, Jennifer Pan locked the front door of her family's home in Markham, Ontario, which is a suburb outside of Toronto and went to bed And Shortly afterwards, three men entered her home with guns, U They ransacked the home. It was a home invasion, looking for money. grabbed Jennifer's parents Con is her father and Bick as her mother. they took them down into the basement, basically they a TV roomed down in their basement brought them down in the basement, they were demanding money. They looked all through the master bedroom. They tore up the whole master bedroom to find money. They kept demanding money being invaded. Jennifer's father told him that he had money in his wallet. He was trying to think of other places that he could give them money from and they end up shooting on and the shoulder and then in the right eye And then as Bick, Jennifer's mother is screaming, they shoot her three times and kill her. Han survives gettingting shot in the eye. The Dad? Yes. How does that happen? I don't know. It broke his orbital bone, the bullet And it grazed the the vein that goes down your throat. I guess is it your jugular or one of those no the are and The eye vein. is big tear duct. It basically went through his eye.. But then like I think out the side and he survived. Jesus Upstairs, Jennifer they tied Jennifer to the stair staircase ister. Thank you to the banister. you stick your head through Yeah get stuck. How old is she again? sixteen? No, at the time, she is twenty six. Okay. Oh wow. But she looks sixteen. Okay. She lives at home. Yes. She lives at home with her very strict parents. Okay. So they tie her with shoelaces to the banister And They shoot the parents and then they all leave with whatever the cash that they've taken. I think it it ended up being like through around three thousand dollars or something. Jennifer gets out of she loosens out of the shsoelaces. She calls nine hundred eleven, she's freaking out. The cops arrive Han comes out of the basement. He's able to get up and walk outside. a neighbor's the first one to find him And he gets loaded into an ambulance. Jennifer gets loaded into an ambulance. She has a younger brother who is half an hour away at college And u And they all get taken. She gets met by crisis workers at the hospital. They tell her her father's in surgery and that her mother is dead. She's at the hospital for a really long time. Eventually they realize that there's not even wounds like there aren't even red marks on her wrist from those shoelaces. uninjured And she ends up they take her once she's out of the hospital, they take her back to the police station and the detectives question her and basically just kind of start asking her questions, what happened? canan you describe these people? They make her go through it once, then they do another technique where they make her and I also got a lot of this from case file, one of our favorite. Case file. what that's the episode I listen to of this. I mean, that guy just does such amazing research. It's just so dramatic Yes, yeah. He was also pronouncing the mom's name Bikca, but I only ever saw it written that it was pronounced Bick. so I'm well, yeah, and he's Australian. He's Australian. I don't know what he's doing He's doing something with his voice. So anyway, Okay. so Basically she goes and the cops are like, tellell me the story your way. Now tell it from above like just and then see what you can remember. like that's so weird. Can you imagine having to do that? Yeah, especially if a traumatic event? Yeah, telling the story over and over. like as you see the people acting it out as that's so weird. It's so crazy. But then that second way does help her to remember And she's able to describe the guys better in more detail, she remembers them the names that they called each other, different things that they talked about with the money, whatever. U So it's a little bit effective. Then right before she leaves the guy says, Oh we need to check your phone because if these guys we think, you know, her mom had just come home from line dancing class. So they're like, well, maybe somebody followed her or like it's she was targeted somehow. So if it wasn't her, then we want to see if it was you. If you were being targeted. So we need to know who you've been talking to. And then in this interview because on the case file thing that he has all the interview tapes. So they that it starts with the nine hundred eleven tape where I was on the freeway. she list On the way over. and I grabbed that phone so fast. was just because she is freaking out into the phone U And of course, you know sccreaming. But then in the police interview tapes, shes really she's crying, she's really upset. And then at one point he says, you need to sign this thing so we can look into your phone. And then she's like, so and all of a sudden she hass a bunch of questions about how they're looking into her phone and what that might mean. And he's basically going, it's fine because if you're not lying to us, it's just us looking at your phone And then if you are lying to us, we're going to find out like who you've been talking to and if it's information we need to know. And that's when like the temperature changes a little bit because up until that point, she was the victim. She was you know, like the one of two survivors of a terrible home invasion murder robbery. So that you know, it changes a tiny bit there And then they start looking into her past and the people that she's been talking to. And it turns out that Jennifer Pann might not be the person that she has been presenting herself to be. Okay. U basasically herer father, Han had been a tiger dad. Well, we'll start at the beginning. They herer parents U were both born and raised in Vietnam, and they moved to Canada as political refugees in nineteen seventy nine. And they got married in Toronto and then they lived in Scarborough neighborhood for a while And that's where they had Jennifer in nineteen eighty seven and then her brother Felix in nineteen eighty nine. The Scarborough neighborhood apparently was kind of rough at the time that they lived there. They both Han and Vic worked at Maget International Car partarts Manufacturer and they They worked really hard. So by two thousand four, they'd saved enough money to buy a large house, the two car garage in Markham. So Markham was a quiet suburb north of Toronto Predominantly Asian families and very it's just kind of like where people went. It was really just quiet low key And now Bick is driving Alexis Hans driving Mercedes, like they're doing very well. Yeah. And they have It's reported they had two hundred grand in the bank. So they were totally dedicated to their kids and getting their kids into college, getting their making their kids as successful, you know Canadians as they can. So they didn't allow Jennifer They had Jennifer was playing piano from the age of four. She won all these awards. She had like a room full of awards for how good she was at playing the piano. Then she got into ice skating she a little older when she's a little older, and she did it every single day. and she wanted to go, she was like in training, and she had set her sights on being in the twenty ten Winter Olympics in Vancouver. Then she tears a ligament in her knee. And basically that dream ends for her. When she was graduating eighth grade, she thought she was going to be the Valedictorian And she basically found out she was getting no academic awards and she was not the valedictorian. And that's like all of the sudden, she was just like, I'm the point. I'm not who I'm supposed to be.. And she kind of she had been working her ass off up to that point. So it wasn't she didn't make a mark. And she was shocked and couldn't believe it. And That's totally unacceptable in her family. Like herer family was like, Al all you do is like these extracurricular activities we've chosen for you very specifically, and then you're going to be like you're going to get a four point eight GPA, essentially. So a thing? No She says to do the impossible essentially. Okay I got it. So So some nights in elementary school, she'd come home from ice skating at ten, then do homework till midnight and then go to bed in elementary school. And and in elementary school, she started cutting herself because the pressure was so intense too be successful in all these different things she was doing So she was doing little horizontal cuts on her forearm.. Yeah. So then when she went to Mary Ward Catholic Secondary schoolch Ice skating was over for her. She started playing flute in the school band. But every day after school, her parents were there to pick her up when band practice was over so she could go home and study. But her grades in for the way their family considered it were failing because she was only getting bees. God, I would have fucking paid for a bee back then with my cello my shitty cello playing. I mean I don't understand why I got any of the grades I got because I never tried and I would get just a full variety fromom A to D. Oh it was just like, why try? Yeah I don't learn that early. It's very random. ye. Wh try? Why try Just have a good time Um so When she got her first bad, you know, all bees report card freshman year, she took some old report cards, some scissors, some glue, photocopier, and she made herself a brand new fake report card worth straight As. All As. Yep, that's how you get allA's. And in her mind, she said Universities don't consider marks from grade Canadian grade nine and Canadian grade ten U So she's in her mind it wasn't a big deal. It didn't matter. I know. And I'm sure she was thinking, I'm buying myself a little time. Here's these A's and I'll work back up to A's and it'll all work out. Sure. U She was not allowed T to have a boyfriend, she was not allowed to go to dances. She was not allowed to go to parties. She was not allowed to spend the night at friends' houses. Um She was it was all about school and getting her schoolwk. Um In the spring All her hard work and dedication paid off. she graduated from high school and won early acceptance to Ryerson University in Toronto. Her parents were happy. They wanted her to go to the University of Toronto, but Ryerson University was still great for them. Here's the problem Jennifer Pan had early acceptance to Ryerson University, but then that got canceled when she flunked out of calculus when she was a senior.. So that early acceptance was rescinded now she's not in any college.. So she starts doing what many people do You pretend you're going to college every morning.. So this is like ye, now we're into me when I live in Sacramento and I'm flunking out of college, but my parents don't know. So I'm doing the thing where I go home for the summer and every day I get up and run to the mailbox like I'm a child, excited for the mail trying to get the mail the report card before my parents do 'use you're gonna see it and know you're not going. Yeah. My report card was like a point eight three or something. Like I was only going to theater classes I mean, your list you going It was insane. Oh no. So she's doing the same thing, but She's kind of doing it in reverse. so she's saying she's going to school, getting up every morning, taking the train And then just chilling out at cafes, she got a part time job waitressing at a pizza place U And she was hanging out with her secret high school boyfriend, Daniel Wong. Danel Wong. So she had been dating Daniel Wong since they went on a European in high school bands, they went on a trip to Europe. And she had only been friends with them up until that point. And she I think the story was that she had an asthma attack in a smoked filled bar and like thought that she was gonna die because she couldn't breathe. And Daniele came to her rest. And Daniele came to her rest And like talked her down and then they became scret lovever. Yeah I started all my breaths so you could finish that because it was so amazing when I couldn't Care Oh my God Danel. They were secret lovers. So that hadt been going on also. she had she had a bunch of plates spinning at once, Jen. So sometimes she would go over to his house. She finally convinced her parents that she needed to move in with her friend, Topaz, who lived close to college and had an amazing name and had the best names. Was she a stripper? We'll never know. It doesn't matter. That's what I'm picturing in my head. Yeah. Topaz in the apartment had the pole to practice on I mean, that's hard. Have you seen? this is like some crazy ab work? Dude, that's like incredible dedication u strength Stamina, stamina, I just fall asleep as I'm talking. So Okay, so basically that becomes part of it. She's also telling her father that her grades are so good she's getting like three thousand dollars tuition scholarships. So it's just lies upon lies online. So it's better than having to tell your parents that you're just like a normal human being. Right. Which made me so sad.s just just to be like, I'm just average. I want to just enjoy my life As a normal human is not acceptable. Right. And there was apparently there's a couple times in this article that Bick, her mom would be like, let her be herself or she's okay as she is and tried to like take the heat off a little bit But she was also Jennifer' the oldest Yeah. And there's just so, you know, there was so much pressure. It's that it's the same kind of pressure in likeike I will I can equate it in the way of like in our family Irish immigrants, like they call them lace curtain Irish, where they make sure everything looks really good because they think everybody thinks they're a scum bag. So they're like, here's our beautiful lace. Look how well we're doing. Everything's ironed and everyone we have nine kids, but everyone's clothes are perfectly iron because it's a thing of like immigrant parents where it's like, I didn't fucking I didn't go through what I went through for you to be work in an office like a boring office or in a pizza place or as a, you know, even as an exotic dancer like which is all acceptable fucking. job. It's what everybody does. That's not I will not accept it. I didn't come here from Vietnam to fucking raise a child to not Be a superstar. You have to have like your own law firm. You have to yeah, you have to do everything perfectly and never trip once, which is not only impossible, but also that's not how you get good at things. Thank God, my parents had no expectations whatsoever, Aside from I mean, aside from nothing. My parents, my dad used to love to tell the story that they used to bring home their report cards to my grandpa who they said D and D's and Fs meant doing fine. And he didn't he dropped out of school when he was a kid. And he was like, doing good everybody.us. And they all became civil servants and plumbers and things that, you know, happen then. You could make money by doing that It's not like that anymore. Anyway. I'm sorry, go on. No, no, no. No, but they it's just funny how there there are these pressures. and some way it's like in some cultures it's academic pressure. In some cultures it's like you have to get married and have a family immediately pressure. Yeah. it just depends. but rel or being used to be religious Yeah Yeah. stay in the click Totally. Stay in the fam. Totally Okay, so Jennifer is She's under the gun and now she's twenty two years old and she has been lying to her parents consistently since like eighth grade, essentially. And having like a double life U which is kind of amazing. But she's never gone to a party. she's never gone to a club, She's never gotten drunk And her one relationship is her secret relationship with Daniel Wong. So basically She then tells them that she it was her father's dream for her to go to pharmacology school and become a pharmacist. So she's like, guess what, everybody, I got accepted. Like she doesnt makes a thing up? Yeah She u She lies, she tells them that she got in. they're thrilled, she hadn't. but she starts buying used books and bringing home like pharmacology books. And when she would leave for school every day, it's stressing out, hu, Stephven? it just reminds me of the woman who did that for Stanford and pretend to be in Stanford for like two years. Same thing. Be her family thought she was pressure. yeah.. So she lived in like Palo. And she would like sleep in L like a like if a dorm, like a roommate dropped out, she'd be like, Ohh, I'm a new roommate and she would sleep in people's dorms and stuff. pretending that she was a student faking her grades all the same stuff. Oh my God. Yeah.. They kind of should get an honorary doctorate for getting away with it. Yeah. For like faking it for so. Don't pretend to be successful. You then you have so much further to fall. Yes And also it's takeake that takeake that initial hit of like, I fucked up The chips fall. They can only yell for so long. Yeah And the and take the initiative to lie and use that towards something better. You know what I mean? Like you're really good liar. Like go get a job somewhere cool, and build yourself up to management. Take that. lie your way to management., But just like you clearly are not stupid if you're able to Fucking trick all these people for two years. Get into sales. getet into fucking sell houses. Sell houses, sell mobile phones on Hollywood Boulevards, rightight out on the sidewal. Right Pharmaceuticals. You start right around the corner in the alley., my dad sold fucking Ginsu I was at fucking Walmart. Hell yes, do it. Those things can cut a coat can.. And he showed you how at a Walmart Whday? goo ahead. so She instead goes for it in a major way. She majors in lying and tells her thatad she's going to pharmacology school, which I just can't It's almost like she's not even lying and going like, I you know what? I got a job in California. I'll see you later or anything. She's not busting out. She's just like, continuing to try to make it work. Like I still have to live here. Yeah. And I have to make these people happy and I don't know how. so I'm just gonna to do it the way they demand. So she's buying fake textbooks, and not fake textbooks, use textbooks like the old pharmacology. And then she's going to the library and watching videos and reading books on it and taking notes so that when she goes home, she has reams of notes so it looks like she's really doing work. She could have actually been going this whole time doing that. Probably if she wasn't a be student, she could have U that was rude. So So then she as she asks if she can stay at Topaz' house during the week because it's a way better commute. Her mom's like super empathetic and like, let's let her It'll be so much better. Well, she's, of course not staying at Topaz's house. She's staying at Daniel Wong's house. Danny his parents She was lying to his parents and saying it was okay with her parents that she was sting it their house. and then so Basically, there was no one she wasn't lying to except Daniel Wal So Basically when it was theoretically time for her to graduate from the University of Toronto Parmacology prorogram. They Daniel and helped her find someone online to create a fake transcript with all A's in it And then she told her parents when it was the graduation ceremony that they that it was an extra large class And all there weren't enough seats. All the students only got one ticket and she'd already given it to a friend. because she didn't think one parent would want to go without the other parent. Yeah. I think that's when it might have started to stink a little bit to the parents. But then when Jennifer told them that she was volunteering at Toronto's prestigious hospital for sick children, they noticed that she didn't have any ID, no uniform. There was nothing to prove that she officially worked there. So one day Han They drop her off. or they insist upon driving her to work. And so then she gets out of car and runs into the hospital, and then Han tells Bick, go in after her and follow her in. So she ends up going and running and like hiding for hours in the emergency room or in the waiting room. And basically that comes back out and like doesn't find her. U M And basically she waits them out until they leave. And then early the next morning, they call Topaz to say, hey, we need to talk to Jennifer. And Topaz, who just wakes up is like, she's not here. Yeah, isn't in on it. doesn't know what's going on. And basically they find out that Jennifer was at Daniel's house. And the whole lie comes down So basically she has to confess she never volunteered at the hospital for sick childildren. She didn't, she wasn't in a pharmacology program, and that she had been staying at Daniel's house. She actually didn't mention that she had never graduated from high school U and that Her time at Ryerson University was f. I didn't even know that she didn't admit any of that She only she got out what she could. of course Pon lost his fucking shit the dad went crazy Bick had to convince him to let her remain in the house. And they basically said It's him, it's Daniel Walner, it's us. And if you go with him, you can never come back to this house again So then she basically had to break up with Dianel Wong because she didn't know where to go or what to do. And they take away her cell phone and her laptop for two weeks. And then after that, they tell her, we're going to check your messages anytime we want to make sure you're not interacting with him. She's an adult. Now she's like twenty five. Oh my God. So she's yeah, it' it's not a it's crazy. Yeah. So she finishes up just that she takes a calculus class, finish gets her high school like GED or whatever She So basically Her parents encourage her to apply for college for real. She makes money as being a piano teacher part time. Basically, she can't go anywhere except for university or piano lessons Uh this so she's twenty four I said that. So When she breaks up with Daniel this time, says, I can't see you anymore because I'll get kicked out forever. He's like, I fine Like I can't take it anymore anyway. He starts dating somebody else And they fall in love. Oh no. And of course Jennifer doesn't handle it well She falls into a deep depression, she attempts suicide. And at one point, she tells Daniel that some men had home invaded their house and had gangraped her. And then she tells him that his new girlfriend mailed a bullet to her as a warning to stay away. that she basically insinuated that the new girlfriend, this was all her plan Yeah to attack Jennifer. Yeah. So someomehow that story works. Okay. because they end up getting back together. Well is she a really good liar at this point? I think she must be in the like that nine hundred and eleven call is so believable. I would have never doubted her Yeah. And I'm sure in a way, she was really, I mean, right herer parents were just attacked.. So I don't think she's a completely cold like sociopath or psychopath, but But she's been lying for fucking fifteen years Yeah. she has to be good at it and used to it and it's a normal. It's not kicing her up at night. Yeah, it's not and it's like it's like a normal way to live your life is by trying to lie about something. Yeah, that like if you're not getting what you want, get that manipulation going because you can't ever get anything kind of the direct way. defeault is to tell tell a person what they want to hear. Yes or like or really play a huge card. right So that people go like, holy shit stop everything. Why would anyone lie? Yeah. Exactly. So basically Daniel and Daniel himself is a bit of a he's he has been kicked out of schools. he's a little, you know, he got caught dealing pot When he went to that Catholic school that they went to together, He's a little, you know, living on the edge a little bit himself So when they get back together, basically, together, they figure out that Her parents' life insurance policies would pay out half a million dollars and that she's the beneficiary. And so Daniel starts helping her make a plan to have them killed. F. Yes So he says that he knows a guy named Lenford Crawford, the worst name of all time A borderline VCander's name, Lenford Crawford. Daniel calls him homeomeboy. They start setting up a thing where like she can she has a separate SIM card and iPhone so she can talk to him and make this plan. Nobody finds out U And basically the plan is when you're done like watching TV for the night, unlock the front door. so she actually left the front door unlocked. Then she went upstairs to her room. She flicked the lights in the study to give them the signal that it was time Her mom had come home from line dancing was watching TV. Her dad was watching the news in a different room and basically these men came in. and the men that home invaded and and basically attempted to kill her father and killed her mother. it was all her doing and completely her setup. Oh my God. Yeah. Which you know, it felt like we were getting to that. It's not the biggest reveal but it's so sad. It's so fucking crazy and over the top. And then basically the third time they bring her, so the cops the first time they think they're just getting the story from her, the first interview. The second interview, they're kind of like, let's talk about this again and go up almost. Yeah. and it's always, you know, it's like the family is what's looked at first always. Plus the dad was supposed to die, right Yes. So the dad was supposed to die. Was the mom supposed to die? Yes. they both were. Okay. Yeah. Okaykay So essentially the third time they inter they interrogate her. And they use something I think it was called I didn't I didn't write it here, but basically a guy named Jeremy Grimaldi is a journalist. In twenty sixteen, he published a true crime book about Jennifer called a daughter's deeadly Deception, the Jennifer Pant story. And in that he talks about they use this interrogation technique that might not have been above board where they basically trick you into trusting them and then waterboard And then like it's almost like one guy is good cop and bad cop. Wboard you and then they waterbard. And then they just waterboard you. So the guy is like, you trust me, you trust me, trust me Now I'm angry and you need to make me not angry anymore because I'm your friend. Yes. like they l they lull her into a sense of kind of like she's being talked to like, yes, you're a victim too. and I bet it was really hard. Y dad was really mean and strict and whatever. And then just boom. And they like it's like that kind of shock and aw thing. I didn't read the whole thing of, but you can read this book where it talks all about that how that interview might not have been Totally fair. Oops. But at the end of the day, she is the person who hired those people Yeah. And essentially U U At the trial, her own father took the stand and told the story of what happened. That was march nineteenth, twenty fourteen. He basically had to get up on the stand and tell everybody how these men came in and he survived when he woke up, After getting shot into the eye, he woke up to his dead wife laying there next to him and then like got out of the house thinking that everyone had been killed. Yeah like, where's my daughter? Is she okay? Yeah worried about her too, probably. Of course. And then slowly finds out that she's the one behind it Horrible Thank. So after ten months of this trial, Jennifer Pan G along Home boy. homeome boy at Lenford Crawford. and this guy's name was David Mil Vagano man. There's a bunch of Mel V Gannaman. Mil V Gannaman they all got u They were all convicted for murder and attempted murder and each received a life sentence with no chance of parole for twenty five years And then the third guy, Eric Cardy, who is the one that tied her to the banister, he's tried separately So There's Yeah. so basically read Karen Kahoe's article in Toronto Life Magazine, Jennifer Pan's Revenge, The inside story of a Golden Child, the killers she hired, and the parents she wanted dead. Oh my. That's the article you're gonna wantna really get into because there' pieces of this article in every other articles everyone's basing it on Karen C you'll never understand unless you have like been raised in a family like that Yeah, but s's crazy. It's like so strict, but then there's people that have had terrible parents they don't have their parents killed. It's just that weird turn of like ye, it just stresses me out so bad. It's like, I've done that exact thing where you're like, okay, that fucked up. Now I'm going make up a new thing that's gonna to get fucked up. and I'm going to do that dumb thing. And like The more complicated you make it, the more the worse you're making it for yourself. Yeah, for sure That's a good one, dude. It's crazy. Job. Thanks. That's that is bananas U Yeah, Vince had a friend. She was a comedian from Michigan. And they went to New York and her name was Joan. and she came from that kind of family where she had been lying to her family. They all thought she was going to school to be a dentist And she was actually a comedian and didn't tell any of them. And then out of nowhere, she fucking jumped off Brooklyn Bridge. Yeah, and killed herself. I remember hearing about that. It's just so sad. L she just couldn't tell them that she was doing what she actually wanted to do in life. Yeah. It's horrible. It's like such a sad to me I can't imagine. And I bet so sad for the family Yeah. I think they're applying pressure just the right way to or or whatever. They're doing what they know R. And I'm sure neverever in a million years is that the result they're looking for? I'd rather have their daughter as a comedian than you know and not what they wanted her to be than L I wanted her to be And alive, right? Of course. It always made me so sad, even though I didn't know her. It's so tragic. Yeah. yeah. I remember a lot of I mean, a lot of people I know knew her and it was they' ally upset about it. Yeah Okay, we're back, Karen, you have updates, yes? I do. In twenty twenty four, Netflix released a documentary called What Jennifer Did About this case. It includes interviews with police officers and people who are in Jennifer's life and footage from her police interviews.. In twenty twenty three, the Ontario Court of Appeals overturned the first degree murder convictions in the killing And ruled the original trial judge didn't allow the jury to consider whether Han was the only intended target of the murders. Wow. Then in april twenty twenty five, the Supreme Court ruled that there should be new first degree murder trials for all four people accused in this case, but affirmed the convictions of attempted murder Jennifer then pled guilty to manslaughter and her mother's death in March of twenty twenty six, so just a couple months ago I mean, it's just been ongoing and she got a life sentence, but now she's eligible for parole Be she's it's time served. And then Lenford Crawford is the only one who's been convicted to apply for parole. He was denied last year Eric Cardy, who was tried separately from everybody else, was sentenced to eighteen years in prison, although he did die in prison under mysterious circumstances And then Kate Winkler Dawson actually did an episode of Wicked Words from august ninth, twenty twenty one about this called Karen K Ho, Jennifer Pan's Revenge where Kate interviewed Karen Kahoe, the woman who grew up with Jennifer Pann, and wrote the article for Toronto Life about this case. Wow. So if you want to go listen to Kate Winkler Dawson, who's a great interviewer talk to Karen Koe about this, you can go listen to that. Wow Amazing. Yeah. And now where it's time to get into Georgeia's story from this episode about the murder of Irene Garza. Yeah Summers for adventures, road trips, and adding a whole lot of miles to your car. That's why it's worth stopping at Valvinee Instant Oil change first. 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This is a timely story because it's a cold case Finally, hopefully this is the end came last week Uhuh. But this is a story that I've ve been interested in it's a forty one of the forty eight hours, you know, we've all watched it. It's really interesting. Texas Monthly. I got a lot of this information from the Texas Monthly. Which we love Texas Monthly. The best article called Unholy Act by Pamela Polf C O L L O F F This is the story of a fucking priest John Fight Oh, murder of Irene Garza. Oh, I don't know this. Oh, honey Oh shit fucking buuckle the fuck up. Buckle down, baby. setettle in Buckle up hit your foot on the coffee table. L the coffee table is hard as you can. coffee table like you have a crush on it Okay, here we go. Okay. So Irene Garza is born in nineteen thirty four. She's this dark haired Hispanic beauty from Mcallen, Texas. It's an agricultural agriculture. S go. Nope. area Agricultural, aggricultural Area, South of Texas in the Rio Grande Valley, five miles from the US. Mexico border In high school, Irene had been crowned Miss All South Texas swweetheartit and Mc Allen highigh schoolchool where you know, everyone's fucking white. back then, she had been the first Hispanic twirler and head drum majortte. Wow. So she was like fucking busting down borders. She's this beautiful beauty queen, but she's Hispanic. so it's, you know a sense of pride that it's it's, you know, she's She's sting down borders. She's not. I mean, Texas That's like blond, big teeth, blue eyes. That's like usually what you're going to get out of a Texas beauty quueen. Right. And she is, you know, she's not that And she's the first in her family to graduate from college, which is a super big deal, huge accomplishment. So at twenty five years old, she worked as a teacher for disadvantaged children, which she took a great pride in. Some of her students were so poor and came from the neighborhood where she had come from and had been able to get out of that they came to school barefoot. and Irene spent her first paycheck on buying those children clothes and books So happens to this very day. Right. Even worse than exxactly. So she's this really big hearted, kind person. She is gorgeous, which isn't a reason why she shouldn't be a victim, but there's just this warmth coming from her. and you know, she had a huge future that U that she earned Yeah what I'm saying. Yeah, listen Look, lookook atisten, stop it. At the center of her life though is her devout Catholic faith That's like her fucking thing On april sixteenth, nineteen sixty, The day before f in Easter Sunday. okay. Saturday Easter Saturday called a thing. It's like chill out Saturday. I't sound like it is. C I don't know. Chill the fuck up Saturday for Easter Well Go ahead Well Good Friday, goodood Friday. Good Frid is when he went up on that cross Okay, it might be the ascension. I don't know. He chilled out on Saturday He got rolled on up in that tomb. Yeah and then and then he was resent on Sunday. Yeah, but Saturday he just hung out. Well, Saturday was all up in that tomb. Yeah People thinking he's dead, it's over. And he was like, you know what? I'm gonna to h. o, I'm not going gonna get sacrilegious here. we are yeah real mad at me. It's so sad because I've had this shit drummed into my head, but then of course it would be impressive. I can't pull it out. But here's the thing and today's the first time of Hanukah, we rebelled against because we hated it so much. so everyone wass drummed in our head. We're like, fuck you, I'm not remembering this. Yeah. And now we don't now we don't Nothing. Now just the guilt remains the guilt and the U ignorance and the really good songs. Ohh yeah, I got a bunch of those. Peace is flowing like a river Anytime you want me to sing it to, I will. Okay. Okaykay. Bar Roaa, let's fucking do this name of prayer. Okaykay M. Okay. so on april sixteenth, fucking lazy Saturday nineteen sixty Irene borrows, she's twenty five. She borrows her family car to drive to their church, sacred Heart, church where she plans to go to confession. She leaves around six thirty that evening. She's like, Mom, I'll be back A bunch of witnesses see her get to church, everyveryone's in line for confession. She gets in line as well, but no one sees her leave that church that day. She never came home that night and the next morning Easter Sunday. That's right, as you know. He has truly risen. He rises and her car is still parked down the street from Sacred Heart. The first clue comes two days later when one of Irene's high heeled shoes is spotted by the side of the road and three hundred yards from there is her purse. It looks as if someone had like thrown it out the window of a passing car. There's no fingerprints on it and Frazy huge search ensues, including they drag irrigation canals, They go house to house through the town. Border patrol planes go fucking circling sixty five National Guardments are called out to assist what became at the time the most extensive investigation in valley history. Wow. It's not til four days later after she disappeared that Irene's body is found floating in a nearby irrigation canal She's fully dressed except for her shoes and underwear are missing The right side of her face is badly bruised. She had two black eyes and the autopsy reveals that she had been beaten with a hard object and suffocated The state of decomposition suggests that she'd been dead for fewer than four days, so maybe she had been kept somewhere for a day or so. U and she had been raped while unconscious. Yeah The local newspapers go fucking nuts with rumors and speculation. Everyone is like being fucking targeted or fingered, including this prominent local citizen who had died of a heart attack days after she disappeared you know, or that had been transient or someone that had a crush on her because she was so beautiful, but she was also, you know, not she was dating but not You know, she was Catholic. U You know what I mean? sure. Detectives question more than five hundred people in the weeks following the murder But behind the scenes The tectives, they don't talk about this in public and the newspapers don't really talk about this. They are focusing on a twenty seven year old priest named John Fyight What? Yeahah. priest Okay Fight, it's F EIT. had recently finished his seminary training in San Antonio and his name kept turning up in their investigation. So he had recently come into town He was a bright and well he was bright and well mannered He had dark hair and horn glasses. He look like he'd be in wheezer. You know what I'm saying? Yes. Yeah He struck parishioners, though as aloof and a bit of a loner and seemed ambivalent about his vocation When he was asked why he had joined the priesthood, he said I just w to give it a try. I'm sorry. but if God isn't in that sentence or Jesus, some fuckking You can't say that out loud. No wasas he new to Catholicism? You gotta like be in it to win it. Like if anyone asked either of us why we wanted to do a true crime podcast, it'd be like a passionate plea of how interested in fucking crime we are. That's right. And we're not and talking. Talking to God, right mostostly talking, but also like to not It's almost that very glib flippant thing of co. Like it's here's my funny joke and like really it's none of your business. Right is what he's saying. Right Wh supp to say Anyone who's asking you is like being earnest and being like, tell me, I want to connect to you. You're a priest, I'm looking for some fucking guidance and some wisdom. Can I get a fucking Aen, please? There you go On the night of Irene's disappearance, Father Fight had heard confessions and taken part in a midnight mass. also admitted to his superiors that he had met privately with Irene in the church rectory And I wrote and parentheses the house. Because I didn't know what a reirectory was. I thought it was an office, the church's office. I thought it was you know, where he went and wrote out his I thought it was an office. Well, it's a house. Right It didn't know that. It's the priestthouse but it's connected to the church. so it kind of is like an office. Do all the priests live there or just the one like head priest? It's kind of like case by case, like in my hometown, Stain. Vincence they live at the reectory. And but you can also go there like at my mom's funeral, we went to talk to the priest in the rectory like in a downstairs office. Doesn't rectory sound like it should be like a side room office? it sounds like factory where they're just churning out Jesus' statues all day at night But but I mean, I think it's like it's basically you know, the church hall is where people like have their you know Sunday coffee clatchches or whatever. The rectory is where you'd go and you're like, we need to plan a funeral, we need to plan a wedding. This is some serious shit happening here. This is the business And then upstairs The priests live and then it's the busy bodies next door making second I was gonna to say Kugle but they don't know Kugle. No, they actually they ban Kugle Long ago. All right, I get it. So directory is okay And that was viewed by other placeac as really inappropriate to take anyone, especially fucking hot twenty five year old lovely woman All right. So so yeah, because unless she has called like if it was a pish business. She would have called like the lady the lady that runs the office and been like, I need to make an appointment. But this was for confession specifically Oh yeah, no, you do that in the confession booth. There's a booth that is titled for the thing she was doing. They had people build it right into the church. so people specifically, you can sit there and pray and then look at people getting confession.. That's the whole idea of confession. Well, he took her to the rectory. Gross. passass. Okay, yeah H It's problematic. Yes, it is. Also, several churchgers who stood in his confession line, which had fuckking stalled out because he fucking picked her out and took her to the rectory as a dock. Oh, that night told detectives that he seemed to have been absent from the sanctuary for long periods of time. And another priest's father John O'Brien, reported seeing scratches on his hands when they drink coffee together at midnight mass.u Then detectives learned that on march twenty third, so that's three weeks before Irene disappeared and her body was found that a woman had been attacked at a Catholic church twelve miles from that church. the one where Irene went to twelve miles away twenty year old college student Maria America Guerrera. had visited Sacred Heart Church in Edinburgh and noticed a young man with dark hair and hornom glasses. Whzer sitting alone in one of the back pews. And in her mind, she was like, that I think she had an immediate reaction to him. He made me nervous, but she was like calm down Maria, you're in the chur, you're in the fucking' house of God. notothing can go wrong. Right. You know, she let her guard down. Yeah, which is totally understandable. in a church, of course. in a church. Yeah And she went to the altar and knelt at the communion rail A man grabbed her from behind and tried to put a rag over her mouth. Holy shit Yeah. She fucking fought the shit out of him. and when he put his hand back over her mouth to silence her because she was screaming, she bit the shit out of his fingers until he drew blood. She drew blood. Yes. that's you know what I'm saying? Yeah She ran out the side door of the church, she escaped. and in her sworn statement, she said that she thought her attacker was a priest. That was the first feeling she got.. whichich was very controversial. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I bet becausecause this is the fifties or the sixties. This is like this is nineteen sixty. So we're technically still in the fifties. So I wrote about this. that this is this is a long time before the sexual allegations against priests started to come out and people believed Yeah this wasn't until the nineties that these allegations came out against priests sexually amesting children And it wasn't until way later that people believed them. Well, and and of course, horrible documentary I mean, amazing documentary? I wrote this down. Is it the it's deliver us from evil. And there's a guy in it that talks about when he got molested by a priest being driven into pol the priest's car because he didn't have a dad. And so he's like, I'll take him out to ice cream or whatever. gets molested in the priests car. The priest drops him off. He walks into the house, says to the mom what just happened. The mother slaps him across the face and says, how dare you ever say that? And then the priest continues visiting their house for years to come. It's the most upsetting It's just children against adults and there's no everyone's like no fucking way. It's not even on children against adults. It's children against God's chosen people and these ly religious people, which I don't completely understand, which is why I was excited to talk to you about this because you were raised Catholic. They're infallible. are infallible and you talking badly against a priest is talking badly against Jesus fucking Christ. That's right Right. This it's It's like pre Vatican two shit where it's like old like when the popes used to control everybody and they were the richest people and they fuck anything they wanted. and it was just all about power and money. And basically these yeah, this is why people who were pedophiles went into theest did And they went in with Cararte Blanche. And we're not saying that Catholicism is bad religion, that priests are bad people, that you know,'re not I'm not talking sh on any of this reality of a really bad period that happened that we need to acknowledge. Well, yeah, and I mean, I think at this point, it's so been acknowledged. Most of the people that I know that are good Catholics and that are faith based like They don't they they still believe in they have a relationship with God and spirituality, but most of the adults that I know becausecause of the stuff that's happened in the Catholic Church are incredible and I don't just mean like people my age. I mean like people my parents' age that are just so It's like you can't look at that power structure and go, this should continue. This is Yeah This is going great. They've handled stuff great.. And it should continue. There's There are very few people that feel that way. Right. Be it's just so what a horrible thing. you can't give people absolute power like that. No No, not at all. especially that access that access to families. but I have to say this too Like there are priests in my in St. Vincance that are some of the best people I've ever met. Absolutely. And it's just that kind of like, it's almost like the bad ones steal the good the goodwill from the good ones. Definitely. Because those ones, it's like what a great effect they have on people's lives. Yes. That's how it all works. Definitely U So . Okay so yeah, so This is way before any of these things came to light. So at Sunday Mass after Iverun's funeral, just to show you how protected priests were The priest told the congregation that he knew there were rumors that a priest was involved in Irene's murder. and he said, quote, It is impossible that a priest would commit a crime like this. Don't speak of it. even let yourself think it He said that himself at to the congregation. in late April Detectives drained the irrigation canal where they had found Irene's body and on the bottom was a light green Eastman coda slide viewer with a long black cord. So like a slide viewer Yeah, leicture viewer. Like one of these Ting to ting Yeah, but like to the wall Oh, okay, like a slide show. Yeah, thing. Yeah. We call those coda slide viewers at our house. You know. There is a photo of it online if you look it up. I mean, like of the actual one. So it's got it long cord on it. It's at the bottom of the irrigation canal where they think her body was thrown in for close toher it. And they also find a candalabra that belonged to the church John Fight is like, oh yeah, I bought that code slide thing last summer. He like It' like, o yeah, that was m And those candalabra that candalabra belongs to the church. So what he probably strangled her with and what he probably hit her a fucking head with is at the bottom of the fucking canal and he raises his fucking hand and's like, that's fine Wow Yeah because kind of in the confidence of knowing no one can do anything about it. Who fucking? Yeahah, maybe, who knows Mm Mhm So finally, the priest sits down with the detectives in early May. He provides a, of course, meticulous account of his actions on Easter weeekend. He says that he had counseled Irene in the sacred Heart Rectory. He said, yeah, I totally did that because she had some information she wanted to give me that was private. So I brought her that's why I brought her in there He had because the confession booth, which is a muffled closet that no one can hear from the outside of wasn't private enough. She could only scream her confession. That' the problem. Jesus, No. He saw her leave though at whatever time. and then he had these like dumb excuses for why he had cuts on his hand And he's like, and goodbye Polygraph tests implicate him in both Irene's murder and the attack on Maria Guerrera a couple weeks earlier. And in August, Father Fight is indicted for assault with intent to rape Maria Guerrera. Oh shit Yeah The jury though Mother fucking deadlocks and the proceedings end in a mistrial And so rather than face a second trial In nineteen sixty two, Father Fight pleads no contest to reduce charges of aggravated assault. gets finine five hundred dollars I notet h H. takes that right out of the goodbye. He takes it right out of the church bucket. Oh what do they call it? The collection plate. Oh I'm losing all of my terminology.. I mean Jesus Christ. That's the guy. He's Jesus Christ. like Jesus can see and hear you if you're trying to raise people in church. Clearly ye You fucking lunatative. Yeah So it's now alleged that the districtney that the district attorney at the time and church leaders cut a deal to stop the investigation into John Fight to protect the reputation of the church. Also most elected officials at the time in the it's the Hildigo County were Catholic, mostly elected leaders. Yeah. And it was at a time when none other than fucking Senator John F. Kennedy is running for the pres for president that year who is a fucking Catholic. That's right. It's he's the only he's there's never been a Catholic president before. He's the There's only one other Catholic that had ever been a nominee for president and one of the major parties he had lost So was do we? I don't remember. I didn't even write it down. No it wasn't at onest. I't think I wouldn't have known. And anti Catholic prejudice is fucking big time. So they're like we need Kennedy to win. We're all fucking Catholics, and let's not give them a reason Hey Catholic. Oh, okay. So like political for political. Yeah JFK being fucking elected. Wow. And like, you know, it's Texas. It's a big fucking place God, that's so funny to think I just always it's just my own weird bias. Like I used to think everyone was Catholic. When I was a kid that I just assumed everyone was Catholic. so Was there a lot of Well, you went to a Catholic school. I went to Catholic school, but also our town was just small and mostly Christian. Although then later on I learned that there was a big bunch of Pedaloma was like one of the biggest receivers of of immigrants after World War two of Jewish people who are running from the war What refugees Thank you. Where do they live now They still live there. There's Jewish. There's a couple temples in Petalama. Yeah.. becausecause I think one or two of the families had like chicken farms. so they're like, everybody go out and on go work on the chicken ranch. Very cool. Interesting That could be a lie. No Nope You said it. No I believe it. I'm almost positive I read that somewhere. It's true It feels so true. It feels really good in my heart. Great. Okay So basically, that means no murder charges are ever filed against Father Fight. and shortly after the killing, the church transfers him to a farw monastery So in the sixties, he spent some time at a treatment center for troubled priests in New Mexico and at monasteries in multiple states. Hold Hold the phone, please. I will not. I want to go to a treatment center for troubled priests and kick them all in the deck. Write the horror movie that needs to be written out of that. I mean, like the children come and attack and kill them all. Oh my my God. It's like to the corn, but at a fucking monastery for troubled quote rouble Trouble priests where it's revenge. The children come out of the fields. It's called're in troubble pe priest. You're in trouble. You're in trouble. I heard what you did this past summer. Right. said Jesus. said Jesus to the Lord That's fucked up. Wh everyveryone in that neighborhood where that was just like move away. Well remember when we watched what was the really great documentary on Netflix over the summer? Kepers? Yeah. And they and he went and visited the house where all of the priests had gotten sent to. they lived and they were childmasters and shit. Yeah Keepers is still fucking great. everyveryone should watch it. It's so good. Listen want to have a binge weekend terrible shit You should watch Deliver us from Eil. which you need to watch it's historical information that you need to know about. It's just fucking life lessons. and you just need to like calm your pessimism a little bit, optimism. I gonna say. Well, also it's that thing of it feels like a very new cultural thing where it's like everybody's got to get real with the fact that true sociopaths and psychopaths move in this world in exactly these unexpected ways They are baseball coaches, they are priests. They move into their They They manipulate and they're good at it. They're good at it. You're not and you need to get okay with that. Yes. got if you are a single parent, you got to keep your eye double peeled. you got to triple check all the people that want to be in your child's life, all that stuff, which We're saying that to people who know it by heart. I mean, like Yeahah, but you forget that shit, man. Like when it's you and your people and this, you know, a guy you're dating. Yeah of course it's fine. You know what I mean? It's like of course you don't think about it in terms of your own life, you think about it outside of you. Yes. It's just so it's I remember reading that sports Illustrated about how many baseball coaches, like littleittle League coaches were pedophiles. and it's just the most Frightening and insan I want to read that. You gotta read it. It is insane. I'm pretty sure it was the cover of sports illustrated like ten years ago. Oh my God, I need to read that. It's so crazy.'s then they they're in the lives, they're right there with all the sports and everything's dude and sports and couldn't be safer In games and we need to go to this in practices And then they then that's how they select the ones who don't have Anybody that's going to come and beat the shit out of them if they do anything to the kid, they like that's how they spot vulnerable children and people who are, I mean, it's just the most fucked up thing. Very awful. U also okay, alsoso the movie Spotlight, which came out recently. Amazing. It is about that too. Sos watch So have a nice binge weekend. and then watch Bob's Burgers and Big Mouth. G to get yourself to feel better. Yes. Big mouth is amazing. bigig mouths so good. Okay blah blahah. d d. New Mexico, mononasteries Oh, here's fun. At one point, Here's fun, hereere's fun. H's. At one point, he served as a supervisor charged with clearing priests for assignments to churches. So the priests who got sent to the fuckking, you're a terrible person. getet out of this town. They're gonna fucking murder you. Yeah, the attempted rapist priests. They sent into these places and his monasteries and our fucking friend John Fight was on the fucking Caring house to let them go back into the goddamn world. Good. This motherfucker, healthy. Yeah. Just good decisions all around Yeah being made everybodysolutely At every level. We have one open seat. Wh should we fill with John fight? Wait, is the devil not available? Okay, then, right. So one of the men that he held clear for Parish was James Porter. isn't the guy from Delive us F from Evil, but could be A child molester convicted of assaulting more than one hundred victims who was a priest. He was like, G them back in there. Yep. You're in the game Yes, second can. Dick. Okay. John Fight left the priesthood in nineteen seventy two and moved to Phoenix, worked as an an insurance salesman, got married, had kids, and grandkids Lives a fucking normal goddamn life. Whoa. Meanwhile, Irene's parents, Nick and Josephina Garza, they both passed away in the nineties without ever seeing anyone prosecuted for Irene's murder but they were assured by people in the church that father fight who they always fucking suspected would be punished by the church if they found out anything had been had been done and they were assured that this was a bigger sentence handed than any court could hand down. And so they're like, o, great because they still fucking believe in the Catholic church.. They were fucking Catholics. Well, yeah. April two thousand two. let's jump ahead. Okay. All right.. forty two years after the murder of Irene Garza A former monk named Dale Tashney who had left the priesthood more than thirty years earlier to marry, suddenly he gets a fucking conscience He says that in the summer of nineteen sixty three, he was asked to counsel John Fight while he while John stayed at the monastery where this guy Dale was a fucking Priest, monk During their six months of counseling, John Fight told Tashney of the night that Irene died This guy called the fucking investigator and he was like, let me tell you something He told him that Father Fight had asked her to come to the church rectory, had had heard her confession And after the confession, he had restrained Irene maybe bound and gagged her He had fondled her breasts, and before he returned to the sanctuary to hear confessions, he had moved her to the rectory basement And later that evening, he moved her to another location thenen onm Easter Sunday so she's still alive Then an Easter Sunday, he put Irene in a bathtub and placed a bag over her head. And as he was leaving the bathroom, he heard her say, I can't breathe, I can't breathe And then Tashney said, when he came back later on that day or early evening, he found her dead in the bathtub And then that night, he put her in a car. And took her and dropped her off along a roadside where there was a canal. U Tashni had kept it to himself out of a sense of religious obligation for more than four decades. He didn't tell anyone. It's like he confessed to him and you can't in terms of being a priest he's confession You're not allowed to repeat it. I mean, I feel so grateful that he came forward and said stuff, but at the same time, it's like this person this man murdered this woman. it doesn't That's then that's not a priest. then that's not a priest anymore. The man who murdered someone is not doesn't get to have that. No, but everybody gets it. It's not just for priests. That's like they're talking to God through you and you don't get to intervene Yeah. becausecause they're asking for forgiveness. And so you have to be that no matter what somebody says to you as a priest, you have to say you're forgiven. He was counseling him. So it wasn't confession I mean, I don't know if technically o yeah. Well, I bet you they'd say it was just for the protection R The other thing is, wasn't she found brutally beaten? Yeah. So that's bullshit. She was beaten and raped while unconscious. So clearly he left some shit out O they just tell you everything in this article. too much. But I would bet you that like he's basically saying, well, I just did a couple wal away and she died. And then she's I mean, it's unfortunate. L he's basically telling the story to this other priest. like too bad that happen as opposed to You finially fucking attacked this woman. Well, one of the things that Tashney said was he didn't show what I would consider to be compunction or sorrow or grief or anything like that So he had ke into himself. and then at this point in two thousand two, he's in his seventies and he had a change of heart And he was like, I'll fuck and testify. Like let's do. Wow. Yeah which is incredible. So Texas Rangers then begin to reinvestigate the case When he's contacted, Fight, who's now sixty nine year olds, says that man doesn't exist anymore, and he won't say anything else Like the men who raped and murdered a woman.. Yeah, he does do. Yeah, he does. Sorry, he's in you. So Rangers also interviewed Father O'Brien, who back then was like, I saw scratches on his hands And he tells the Rangers that a few months after the murder, fight He had confronted fight about whether he had killed Irene and the priest had told him everything. So he too was like, Yep, I know everything. I'll fucking testify. Oh shit And yeah, he'll tell everything. So. And I would say this too. this was back I think that people very rarely broke that. Like if I'm telling you, if I'm giving you confession, you're like basically you have to forgive me the end. you don't get to say anything. That's in like, you know, police TV shows all the time. Is that not true anymore? Well, no, I'm saying I think back then, no one would ever break it. whereereas nowadays I think it's like now everyone's seeing the reason that that rule was put into place maybe not have been for the best reason. right Or that there were many more people that would exploit it than anyone would expect. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. U am I even Catholic defensive? ry That's okay. So then in july two thousand two, the Brownsville Herald ran a front page story on Irene's murder and the suspicion about John Fight. And so Hildigo County District attorney, Renee Guerrera was asked if he planned to pursue an indictment in the case because they were like, we have all this fucking evidence now including two people who he told murdered Irene and they're willing to testify. And this guy Renee was like, can said, quote, canopy solved. Well, I guess if people believe that pigs can fly, anything is possible. And then he said, Why would anyone be haunted by her death? She died. Her killer got away So he fucking flippantly whoo is this guy? This guy, Renee Guerrera. he's a fucking Hild to go. No wait, H'll Hll go Thank you. Oh my God. I only say that because of the movie starring Vigo Mortenson about him and his horse. Hd allo. H'd all go, yeah. Thank you, Jesus U yeah, so at the time. So then he got all this negative publicity and he's like, okay fine. Sorry, he was the prosecutor though. He was the district attorney. Oh okay, o. So so he got all this negative publicity because her fucking family is still alive. her parents aren't, but the rest of her family is like, We fucking care that she died. Yeah. So he in two thousand four he ask he has two of his prosecutors present the evidence to a grand jury to indict John Fight But they don't fucking call either of those priests to testify, the ones who he told that he killed them. And so of course, in two thousand four The jury declined to indict him and no b the case So that was the chance to fucking finally before John Fy dies to get him held responsible for the murder of Irene. And those two priests had said that they would testify. They wanted to. They were waiting by the fucking phone to be called up to testify. And they just didn't do it. They didn't call them. And it turns out, of course, Renee Guerrera was Catholic. Yeah. R. Yeah. tenen fucking years later, in twenty fourteen, there's a district attorney's race in Hidalgo County and finally Renee gets fucking beat by Ricardo Rodriguez and and in his race he promised he would re examamine the case of elected. Oh sure. So fucin Ricardo is elect Wow, great. They spent a year and two months reeamining the case and all the evidence and more than fifty seven fucking years after the murder of Irene Garza, eighty three year old John Fight is finally fucking arrested in Arizona for first degree murder Fmer monk, Dale Fuckking Tashney, eighty eight years old, fucking testifies.ang. eighty eight years old. Now, when you say monk, does it say anything else about that him being a monk? There's just a photo of him with that hair You know what I'm saying? You's got roes and the hair and you're like, Ohh, honey, you must have been dedicated ' my God He looks like he's on spaceballs. I'm I'm just trying to figure out what that is if he's like a Christian brother or what like his specific deal was. I'm sure it's very involved but I don't understand. Okay. I just knew that it was like a monk, but he was like But it was like priests hanging out with him. Yeahep, I don't know. He's just in a different kind of like Set up Catholic thing. Yeah. Okaykay Maybe he made wine, the hair though. Yep, my God. So Dale, what's up? eighty eight year old Dale testifies against him december eighth, what's the date today, the twelfth Yes. december fucking eighth, twenty seventeen Fucking four days ago. Oh shit. yeah afterfter a six day trial in the The Dalago County courthouse in Edinberurg, a jury fucking convicted John Fight. whoa. Now eighty five year old ex priest of murdering Irene Garza And he received a life sentence in prison. Oh my go. Yeah this just fucking came out That's incredible. nineteen sixty is going to happen in fact in Where are we twenty seventeen Yeah she' still alive today. Irene will be eighty three years old In a letter written to a friend right before she died, she stated that she's happier than she's ever been and said to her friend. Remember the last time we talked, I told you I was afraid of death Well, I think I'm cured. You see, I've been going to communion and Mass daily and you can't imagine the courage and faith and happiness it's given me And that's the story of the murder. of Irene Garza by Motherfucker John fight. Wow I can't believe that ended well. I know, right? It never happened in the Catholic Church. Every time it's a Catholic Church story. Yeah. It frustrates you, it disgusts you.ld cases too. goes crazy. Yeah. So She's like in one of those walkers in court that are also chairs. Yeah, you know that you see. Yeah, trying to look all old a couple of things he said when he got arrested were like, I don't understand. this happened in nineteen sixty. L his excuse of, I don't understand this was happening now. This was so long ago. and this woman says to him, there's no statute of limitations on murder. He's trying to play it off like this was so long ago. Yeah, why are you guys making a big deal about it? Yeah. Exactly. He's acting like a confused old man. Yeah when he's a fucking sexual predator and murderer. Well also it doesn't matter how old he is. It doesn't matter how old he is. It doesn't matter what his opinion is gndpa or whatevers forion is not relevant. you already were confused. That's why you're like this. your opinion about it and how you see it is not valid because according to you, no one's life matters And any woman is some woman get sixty, who cares? No No A lot of people care. a lot of people care and a lot of people are tired of peoplee like that guy exploiting positions of not just power, but automatic trust. Yeah. It's that thing. That's what's so gross. Yeah. Can you imagine going into a church or like I can't imagine going into a church And getting a creepy vibe of like, oh no, the guy that works here is scaring me. Yeah. That's the exact opposite of how churches are supposed to work. Well, there should be no such thing as automatic trust. Yeah. I mean, it sucks But even, you know, you're fucking pediatrician or you're fucking, you know, you're What's it called? Anything There's just there's no such thing anymore. Right. And there never was, we just let it happen. Right. Yeah, it's okay to be Just be aware. Be careful and thank God for the internet And Chucky, Chucky, Chucky. Chuck, everyone's fucking Every record. Yeah Wow, that's amazing. Yeah.such a good story. Thank you Hi. That was an intense episode. I know. Yeah, there there was a lot of feelings. O, we're back. What are the updates for this case? John Fate was incarcerated at the WJ Estelle Unit in Huntsville, Texas and died of natural causes. onn february twelfth, twenty twenty. so pretty recently actually.