The Future of Human Potential

I'm going to read you the most alpha sentence possible here. Kindergartners must climb a forty foot rock wall and pass a receive critical feedback without crying test. Right, This is the best time in history to be a five year old E you go I feel like I could rule the world and know I could be what I want to I put my in it like a days on the road, let's travel never. Well, I'm gonna to flatter you for a second. So the easiest one is, I wish there was an alpha school near me, so I could send my kids to it. I actually have a kindergartenner, so that would be perfect. But you have this really amazing story. It's kind of the story that me and Sam like to tell on this podcast because it sounds like a movie Here you've got this sort of secretive billionaire, right? This guy who in his twenties drops out of college, figures things out. You're on the cover of Forbes magazine when you're twenty seven years old And you built multiple huge companies, multi billion dollar companies and then you disappear. For like twenty years. Nobody hears about you. You stay out of the public limelight. You're not out there like us talking on podcasts and saying how great you are. And then you take a billion dollars of your own money and you use it to try to reinvent education. Now you're back. Yeah. In two thousand five, I got married, which was also The first year of podcasting, I did a podcast actually at Stanford That was my last one And then I went s it for twenty years. And then now my youngest daughter is about to go to college And so now I'm back on the road, right, I'm back in the limelight and I hopefully Halpha will be doing it for the next twenty years to fix education. Why don't we start at the start there? So you have this idea for trilogy and you drop out of college, actually in high school, I wrote a paper A. So really in high school, I was writing paper on AI. One of the paragraphs said, Neural Nepar decades away. I then went to Stanford and opp was class with the father of expert systemys at AI, Professor Figbum. So my buddies and I, you know, were like, we can't sit in Spanish class anymore. So we dropped out. You know, backack then it was rare and so the parents are not excited. My dad famously said you're a moron. then We built trilogy and our claim to fame actually in the nineties, it was the first AI product to sell a billion dollars. Did you have the idea when you dropped out? or you drop out and they say, let's come up with a whiteboard, let's come up with an the idea? No No, that we had the idea, which was you could build this product called the configurator, which was Ext systems had a range of things that they could solve. configuratation. It was one of the domains that they've been trying to solve late seventies basically. and you know, by the late eighties, I was like, oh, we can totally do this I tried to figure out what TriliG did because at one point you guys owned so many different products. I think you owned a bunch of different companies. And I was trying to figure it out. and I was like, is it sort of like if an airline needs to like buy parts to build an airplane? you built software that would help them decide how many bits and pieces for each like how many seats they need, therefore what they should order from the manufacturer. Was that right? The first product we had started the company was a configurator. Just think of a configurator on like you know a car website or Dell computer where you're configuring your computer. Now just imagine it if it's a million times more complicated. which is a room size phone switch or a Boeing airplane or you know, back then, main brain computers, you know manufacturing systems that the problem back then is Rs would be out in the field selling these complicated products. and then what would happen is they'd get to the manufacturing line and the manufacturing line didn't build them. It was an unbuildable configuration And so being able to take that knowledge about how what is a correct configuration, put it in your thousands of sales reps hands. so they would sell accurate configurations would save millions of dollars the day to the forortune five hundred. So we just found all the fortune five hundred manufacturing companies and said, we can take what all this huge problem is costing you just eight billion dollars put it in this sales builder, which your sales reps would be able to build correct configurations. And then you'd pay us millions and millions of dollars for it. And so that was our first product. And that's what launched the company and that was the first one that drove the billion dollars of revenue You're at the time, you're only what? twenty, twenty one years old. You're saying like a simple. We just went to the Ftune one hundred, knocked on the door, they handed us the millions of dollars. Yeah, How is it going to be? So what was it actually like when you were doing that? I mean Were you just like really savvy early on, Were you making dumb mistakes, but figuring it out? Can you take us back? Yeah, well, there's there is, you know, if you want the long form, there's that there's a two thousand five podcast where I was presented to Stanford about why if you're doing what we're doing, it's the dumbest thing you could do, but you gotta try it anyway whichich is no, the four thousand five hundred does not want to buy from a kid dropping out of college And we lived painfully. it took three and a half years 's a flip side to it. If you ever build a product that the four five hundred wants and it saves them, you know hundreds of millions of dollars They will buy it from you have no other choice. We went into multiple sales cycles where, you know, they'd go in and at the end of it, they'd be like, oh, we're going to go hire back then Anderson consulting or we're going to call, you know, one of these oracle to solve this problem. And when those companies couldn't solve it they would come back to us, we were the most expensive software you could buy in the nineties because we also had super high pricing because we're like they're not going to buy from us unless they have to. And we know it's worth hundreds of millions of dollars We are their last choice on the list. And what they are like, okay, we got to deal with these guys thenen you're like, great, I'm going to charge you lots ofoney because you have no other choice. Well, that's that. That's not a very young kid mentality. Every time that I've read about you, you've had this confidence that I love. And it seems like even what you're describing is a very confident move for a very young person to make. B to there's some backrap that helps on that Jack Welch who is CEO of GBE. My dad was a strategic planner And so I grew up in that GDE culture And I remember telling my to dad, I was like, God, that's just TVs are like the only cool thing you guys make. And he's like, oh, let's talk about the gross margin of a cat scanner versus a commodity TV And so I was learning all of that from, you know a young age. and so that helped when I was ready to start my business, that I understood ROI and you know, that I was going to be setll value and all of those things But then that and said, I'm going to be the best product manager and I'm going to put the two together. And I actually think today with Alpha, that's a lot of what I'm doing It's just taking management park and the go to market business part and saying, if you took those two things How would you change education put some things in perspective. So I used to live in Austin and a bunch of my best friends are Austinites. and at one point, I don't know if you know this Seaan. I think at one point trilogy was the largest or top three largest employer of folks in Austin. And like your growth was like astronomical. I mean, I think that you're doing hundreds of millions in revenue and only like five or six years in. Can you sort of brag for a moment? How big and how fast did you get? Well, so once we had it took us, you know, we dropped out, it took three and a half years to actually build the product and convince anybody to buy it. But then as soon as they started to buy, Silicon Graphics bought it Julip Packer bought it AT and T IBN, right? It just we started to roll through the biggest companies with, you know, massively, you know, high pricing On this show, we have spent hours talking to some of the best investors alive. Well, lucky for you, the team at HubSpot, they have pulled out the principles that matter most and turned it into a very simple easy to read wealth guide thirty five principles from the top investors. We're talking guys who have been on the pod like Howard Marks, Maniche Perbi, Morgan Housel, Kathy Wood, and a ton of others So these are all their frameworks, their mental models, their rules, basically how to play the long game and how to avoid ruin. You can get it in the link below. you know, we were in Austin where they didn't have lots of software engineering back then And so he hired two thousand Ivy League graduates, you know, MIT in Stanford and brought them to Austin So our claim to fame that the nineties was if you ask Microsoft to known, Bill Gates, who's only company who out recruits us out a college, right? They were their peak So Microsoft would win nine percent of college graduates back then And we against them won seventy percent Gil Gates literally flew down to Austin to figure out why you were getting the best graduates. And this is also how intense, you know, he was is we're a ditner and he's literally going through every single person that we had made an offer to You know, if there's Fred here and you're offering them back then, you know forty eight thousand dollars, you know, and we've sort of reverse engineered how you guys hop, you know, we think he's like a thirty eight thousand dollars guy. you know, why? what was his technical capability that you really liked I mean, it was craz the level of detail he went through. Right? Be he was it was a fight for talent. And if you're getting talent, you got to get the best people What was your response to Bill Gates during that dinner? Well no,. Yeah what do you say? Well, listsen it, Bill, here's here's how you do it. Well, what did you say What it was? He's like, I call He's like after leaving, he's like, I'm going to call. every single candidate who has a trilogy offer and a Microsoft offer and I'm personally going to call them And I'm like I need the candidates more than you do, Bill. and you I'll just escalate. I'll just escalate. I'll bring them on a trip and we'll do a week ski trip And I'll ask them How was the last time you'll ever talked to Bill Gates You know, how was that call because he's never going to have time to talk to you again because he's got thousands of employees. And so but they did for the period in the nineties, right? A would have, you know, whether it was Balmer Gates or Mike Maple, the other third in the office of the president, those three would call all our candidates and we would just continue to fight and it was escalate, right? It's just we needed them more than they did This is one thing I wanted to learn from you because you know, when we're talking to you right now, you seem like a friendly Nice guy, you know, you seem like a nal normal dude, but you definitely have a gear that most people don't have. Can you talk about that that extra gear, which is some version of boldness or intensity Yeah You set out, you have a goal and you just do whatever it takes to achieve the goal. And there's no amount of work you wouldn't do to hit the goals. Just like this I have to win the recruiting ward. I have to win. I have to if I don't beat Microsoft and get the best talent, my companies doue. And so whatever it would take And I think that's trueable. you know, for everything that you want to do You just have to have and back to that gear I had been lucky enough that I do find what I love work on. So I love build the stuff in the nineties, right? And it was awesome. And So I was loving every minute of it. And you know, if I look at what I'm doing with education right now, I have the best job in the world. So I'm working seven by twenty four You know on education And there's nothing that we won't go do to figure out How to go fix this and get this to a billion people And I think just back to entrepreneurs, they have that gear Right And Bill Gates has like here, you know, today is the world's best at it's Elon, right? You know, when you go to dinner with him, you're just like, o, I suck. like he is so much better Right, that his level of intensity and working on the most important problem and being able to focus on it is just a critical skill. And if you want story, I guess going back to the early days, So my dad Dum had terminal cancer He said, you know, look, you know, I basically have eighteen months. How about I sit on your board and help you, you know, figure it out your a young punk who doesn't know what he's doing, but it was obvious that I had you know, caught the tiger by the tail You know, and there was a meeting where this massive deliverable we had to hit Fhila Packers It was one of our first one and HP's, you know, yay or nay was everything. And he's like, is your entire company focused on this? And you know, we we have the board for you. I'm like, Absolutely courourts, we do totally focused on And he's like, so your engineering team. Like if I asked him you know, what percent of their time do they focus on Kwa Packard versus all the other companies And I'm like hundred percent on Gila Backard. they everybody understands we are not going to miss this And he's like, Re Okay stops the board meeting goes out and says, G Bhill Rean, who ran our development. He's like, brring him in here. a lot of customers Bill, you know, working on this stuff percent of this team is working on Kilip packers Bill's like, well, since you come from traditional work, you know, traditional world I would generally say two hundred percent because we're working eighty hours a week Every single person's working eighty hours a week on Fwlet Packard, and that leaves us an extra twenty hours a week to work on the other customers Right. And that's the kind of thing where, you know, when you're talking about intensity and focus and your team trying to deliver on it, right? It's just, it's You know, and I was like, o than God, Gpe are, you know You're like,, hey, dad, have ever see me kiss a girl man on the lips because this's gonna happen for the first time ever completely That was right. And that is exactly When you talk about intensity would you're trying to solve this, right I heard a story, though. It's not just intensity. I heard a story. I don't know if if I heard it through a friend of a friend or online that you would take people you were recruiting, like like at the end of your university cohort, I forget what you called it. And you would take them to the casino and you would give them some money to gamble. And if they and you wanted to teach them, they wouldn't want to gamble a lot of money you're like, you're not a good fit. When you need the people who are Gamble more. So actually so you can go look, there was a cover story in the Wall Street Journal about this It was actually their money. And you know, we get all these kids down and they're like, I want to be an entrepreneur, I'm risk taking. That's who I am. I'm like, great At the end of our tri' university, one hundred days, you know, if enough of the teams had hit their goals, we would take everybody to Vegas. And then we would get everybody around a routte wheel And we'd say you have to bet one month salary on the number, right? And so everybody would have to put one mon salary. Do And you know, there's a lot of people who are like, well,'m not I don't want to bet one month salary up it. And we're like, first of all, that's not a huge risk. You're going to be asking venture capitalists up they to give you millions of dollars. And you're literally not willing to take any risk. at all And so we would we that every year and Wal teacher wrote this big story about it. I actually got a lot of flash from parents after they read the story. They're like, what are you doing Dad? We just got out of college But yeah, back to just, you know, pushing people, you know, if you want here's another intensity. We actually triljy University, you know, there's Harvard Business, you know, case studies on it and you can read about it. We literally had a swap program with the Navy SEALs Literally, the Navy SEALals are like, okay, you know, we're going to send a couple of our seEALals over to your program and you send a couple of your tririlogy kids to California to go part to be part of ours, was sort of the physical versus the mental And you know, it was that level that we were considered by the seELals, the only thing on the standard and rigor that would equal them on the physical side kids, you know, back to recruiting kids when they were like, oh my God, you I get to go do Oh they'd only last a week, you know, or you really a few days before they Yeah, it is it easier Is it easier to make a meathead good at programming or a nerd good at like Swingers are actually super smart, right? They filter, right. So they were coming in as super capable. Now they've never been in an environment where you're having to make. it was the kind of thing of a different environment of decisions and things like that than their other ones But it was you know, those kinds of things when you talk about intensity and doing things that are nont traditional, I'm all about that, right It sounds like on the recruiting side, you also did something counterintuitive, right? Instead of making it easy Because when I moved to Silicon Valley It was all about ease Google will do your laundry, They'll cut your hair, they'll walk your dog, they'll give you free food. You want some more free things? I went to a vending machine and it gave me a MacBook. It was unbelievable But you were like You realize that actually young ambitious people wanted something hard, not easy. canan you talk about that a little bit That's a huge insight, which is this is the hardest one hundredter days of their life. And that was what allowed us to recruit them against Microsoft or all these other companies. I was actually at the board of directors of Fortune Tch Company And we had taken some of their Mchis. who wanted to go to trilogy instead of their company. they're like, how are they going to this little company, you know, instead of us Yeah. I'm like, well, during the internship, you made it easy And so they're just, oh, I'm not doing anything significant. When they come down tririlogy It's going to be the hardest thing they ever did. They're going to work on something significant And kids want to do awesome things Right And mapping it now to our education. when talk about the kindergartners clut forty foot rock wall. It's the same thing want to go do hard things. Now, they need to be supported through it. You can't take a kindergartner. Right You need to sit there and you have to have high standards and high support. You need both parts you know, we have these, you know, with alpha tests where you do all these busy workshops You know, and then you have to test to pass it. You have to climb with the forty foot clockwall, you know, our second graders got to run a five K. our eighth graders have to do a tough mudder. they also all have to cross the finish line same time. You know, we have all these tests But the ones that drive back to the most excitement, I mean, they all are hard are the ones where the kids can beat their parents Like there is nothing that motivates a student more and a kid more than them being able to go head to head with their parent and winnie, like fake or not with a parent tank pit Like they love that Kids love that One of our claims on the, you know is kids love school more than vacation Right can't build a school that kids love more than vacation if I have low standards. It is the reason they're excited is because they're going with their friends doing hard things I actually think Sean, this insight that you guys just came up with is actually quite brilliant And you did a really good job of tying it into alpha, but like of making things hard, and that actually attracts a certain type of person. But what's interesting is like if you're a kid, it's exciting to climb a forty foot wall. It's exciting to beat your mom and dad When I think of like a configure software, that's not like that exciting., you know, versus Microsoft, if you're making like, well, Microsoft's not terrily exciting either but if you're like Apple you're making like the Pod, you're like, know,'re's like this consumer product that I can hand to you. How cool is that? O we just talked to the guy who founded MTV and he was recruiting these people and it was music, It was entertainment, that's cool Configuring software, that's not that cool, but yet you said we're making this awesome stuff Can you dive deeper into what makes something awesome because that I actually think that that one trigger of like making school awesome, making trilogy software awesome. Other than making it hard, what is necessary for something to be Awesome. Yeah, sure. So you're never going to convince anybody that configuration is sexy ight versus all the other options. However AI algorithms that underlaw configurations time were some of the most complicated computer science problems you could solve And so when you're sitting there and you're looking, o, I'm going to go to an about box for Microsoft Word as choice A, or you're going to go work with the smartest people tackling this challenge that no one's been solved before It is a technically impossible challenge And the best computer scientists. like, you know, in nineteen eighty five Wits, Stanford, MIT. their number one computer scientists all came down were graduates came to Alpha And that is because we were working on the hardest problems It's the same thing. you know, people always ask, you know and, you know, and on companies, why do people do startups? Like why do they go to down to SpaceX? Why do you do it? And it's like because I'm with other people who are super smart, who are working hard and we're all trying to do something that's really, really hard The Navy SEAals. Why are you joining the Navy SEAals It is the camraraderie. it is the, you know, everybody together. That starts in kindergarten. It startsing kids love this stuff And it goes up to they're getting out of college and then late career, like the people who are joining us you know who are, you know, my generation of my age. These are people who are like, okay I'm going to go spend the next decade trying to fix education and it's going to be a nightmare. It's gonna be super hard Right, but they want to get in and do it because The alternative is, oh, I'm going to fire and play golf all day And, you know The challenge and the excitement is what motivates people You said something earlier about High standards and high support. I w want to talk about high standards for a second All right, let's take a quick break. I got a question for you. When a buyer asks AI for a solution like yours, does your business come up? Most companies have no idea. By the time they found out, they've already lost the deal to another company that did HubSpot has AEO, which helps you show up in the moments when the right buyers are looking for a company like yours. before the first click, before they fill in the form, that is the moment Hubspot AEO is built for, check out hubspot. com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses I was at a Tony Robins event a decade ago and somebody was You know, all these people come to Tony Robins, some people who are at the edge of their craft, they're the top one percent performers, they're there to get that edge. And there's some people who are, you know, on the edge, you know, broken and, you know, they're looking for a fix And he said, if there's three words that would solve everyvery problem you have in this room It would be raise your standards And he basically said, you know, your life will be what you tolerate. And he goes on, he gives a bunch of examples David Proell was telling us he said that, you know, Joe once sent me as a holiday gift twowo bottles of wine And it's the note on it said Here's two hundred point bottles of wine to remind you something like that to remind you of what one hundred point looks like a reminder about standards. Can you talk about What that means because it's easy to say it's really hard to do. You can't get higher than one hundred points, right on a wm ranking And it's the same thing on a test. Like our kids alpha get hundreds on their tests if you go to your average parent and say You're kicking at a one hundred on the Texas star. ninety five plus percent of parenthood. No they can't They can't do it And you know, we have a we have a building with a few hundred people in Austin who get more hundreds on the Texas card than a school district of a hundred thousand All you have to do is just showoke kids they canat Now, you also have to support them and show them how to do it, right? But the back to the motivationation of what should the standards be Right? And standards that should be are We should get a hundred. You should know everything, right? You should be great at your craft, right? whatever it is and Wh wants to be number two in all of those motivations, right? That drives Right, human potential, human nature And when you're building a business or with a school, it's the same thing How do you instill that in your team, though? Is it just about being a sort of Steve Jobs asshole where nothing's ever good enough? No It's the exact opposite, which is most parents are one or the other. They are either high standards, low support. Just throw your kid in and figure it out good luck And that's's going to cause grit is you're just gonna to keep struggling Okay,'s that's a cool way to do it. because they'll try a little for a little bit, but then they'll decide it's too hard and bail and you get tons of disengagement withithoutout You can do the other one I'm high support, low standard which is, oh, I don't ever want stress But I'm going to be there supporting the whole time and do it. And that's terrible because you never learn. do hard challenges. You never learn resiliency and grit, right? You never get self confidence because you' never tried something hard that you struggled through And so you have to give the scaffolding and show people how they get there What does that look like within a company? Yeah. let me give you the school one and then I'll give you the company one, which is I go to the seventh grade is my first year. I'm like, all of you guys can get one hundred on the Test star and they're like Mr. Lemont, that's impossible. can't get hg I'm like, no, no. I'll give you a one hundred dollar bill one hundred for a one hundred It's still impossible againus, right? I don't know how to do it. And I was like, no, no, no. Here's the catch. any grade left. And they're like, you're gonna let me take a kindergarten test and give me a hundred bucks for Texas, you know, one hundred on a star I'm like, well, they start in third grade e ofidsz like Done It doesn't t take the third gradeath that's a hunter Can I do fourth grade and you're like absolutely ty fourth gr And then they be fiscpted. And they only get an eighty two. because they didn't know all that they hadn't done their school not given them mastery right through it And this is where you have to get scaffolded. Do you want the AI tutor to look at the ones you miss and give you those lessons? that will get you to one hundred. And the kid looks at it and is like,h That's like it take me a week to work. sure for another hundred bucks, I'll do it And then they do fifth grade and then sixth grade. And by the time they get to seventh, what you've done is youve changed their mindset When you're getting a hundreds, all the grade levels, you're like, well, obvly I could do fifth grade. I obiously can get it to sixth grade. It's just a matter of work. and then it's just a matter of work to do it in seventh grade And so you've tak a kid who thinks it's impossible and you've given him a scaffold it, right to work through plus motivation because motivation matters Right? And you give them scaffolding and motivation to do it. So if you're building a company, it's going to be the same thing build a billion dollar product And that's hard, right? You're like, what is the scaffolding you're giving your team where you're making it where they understand, okay, I know how to get And that's the part when you think about high standards. If you as a company give high standards with no support to get there. They'll try for a while and then they'll disengage. Lots of companies are trying to move their companies to be AI first We want to via AI first company And they're basically like here, here's Clude Ko, good luck Right. And what is the scaffolding you're going to be able to do to get your people to that standard. Are you able to sit there and role model This is what excellence is This what we mean by excellence And then once you show them, Here's how you if you don't have the skills, how you can repeat it And so that's the part when you look about, you know, this is HR is am I getting the people in who have the skills to do it? And then can I give them the training and the motivation model where they want to You are very good at understanding how to get people to do what you want them to do. Did you learn how to do this because you wanted to build an awesome company? and you're like, I got to figure out how to motivate people and how to make them productive? Or were you always into human psychology? And business was a good example of just making it work. No no, I was not good with human psychology and I did want to build the company and how I got there is one of the most important hires I ever made is guy Jim Abel, who was my headed HR who would coach me through a lot of this where I started very much as high standards, low supportter. He was the one who was like, look, here's the part. hereere's what you have to do if you want to bring your team with you Here is the organization you have to build if you're going to bring once I had, you know, two thousand employees and I'm like, oh my God, you know, What do I do He was the key insight on that song And then you know on the school side now there's a professor, doctor Jager, who's written a great book that every parent should read, which is called ten to twenty five, The Science of Motivating. your kid from age ten to twenty five. He's the one who actually developed our child development side and how our adults, our guides work, which is mentor mindset, high standards, high support. And he's done a ton of studies that actually show literally with wording changes where you can take a student and just say I'm about to give you feedback be hard It's only because I know you can go crush this. because I know you can do it back to the growth the Tony Robins part, right? The growth mindset. And's I'm giving it to you because I know you can do it And so here's what you'll need to go do and you can then give them the coaching back to that book. tenen to twenty five is a Every parent should read it and it actually is our model where people say, how does alpha work? It only has three hundred and five reviews on It's not that popular it looks like. The books onncece you get to middle school at Alpha, you have to read T to twenty five, there's another book self driven childild that we do not allow kindergarten moms to read because it talks about kid being independent and a kindergarten is the last thing you want to worry about. But once you get to middle school, that's where kids You have to, you know, they're moving independence And so those are the two blocks there Drive R model Talk about simplicity because as you're explaining things I feel like you're taking, you know big ideas and you're compressing them in a great way that makes it Ey to sort of, you know, grock,'re giving us good frameworks. I used to do big, you know, twenty page strategy documents, You know, here's our big strategy documents And you know, when Jim joined, he'd like read this document. He's like, Joe, this is useless And be like M It's really not. It's like really good strategy. What are you talking about? Th are super awesome ike what are you talking about? Wh's with you? Awesome. And literally I'm like And then he's like when you think you know, he's like So look You have a couple thousand people now Your strategy document has to come down into three lines, three words each. And I'm like not gonna make a strategy of this complex tech company Sogan. L we're not gonna use slogerine I I've literally talkking to one of my cofers. and I was like, God, when we hired a Jim, I thought it was really smart, but why would he try to dumb this gap And I remember thinking about it, right? And so he kept coaching me on it. I'm like guys, these are like Stanford and Harvard graduates theyaking for you torinate st strategy do And he's like, no, the next we're going have a company meeting and you're going to get up and slogan, what are your key phrases I just was like, I'm not going to do it So he interviewed everybody in the company, literally backed to intensity. He was met with every single person in the company. then put on the board after it took him over a month He's like, Joe, this is what your company thinks your strategy is I'm like, wow, that's like the opposite of what we're doing He's like, exactly. He's like the problem with the twenty page bagy document is every single employee takes the one sentence they can attach to and say see unaligned. I'm aligned and when they're really not and then that's you just lose, right? You diffuse all your focus And so he tried to reverse engineer had his three lines of three words for each I was like, okay, they're definitely not that. But here, I'll go now I understood and then you know, we created it And that now for everything we do, right? So what is it for Alpha? What are your three lines? So our three lines for Alpha are for every student, right? Every parent understands. We make three commitments everyvery kid The first is, you will love school We used to just take a survey, Do you love school, but's ninety six percent And so it's too easy. So we added one eighteen months ago where we say, wouldould you rather go to school or go on vacation? And four weeks ago when we surveyed all our kids, forortty six percent of our students said I would rather go to school than go on vacation. G, high standard, high bar or deliberate love of school. The second is You will learn twice as much in two hours a day as if you sat in class for six and didn home workk. So that's our learning engine does, you learn ten tes faster. And so we don't make you do a whole day and learn ten tes as much. We're like, no, we're going to shrink it down. You'll learn twice as much. So no matter where you start on a percentile level, we'll get you to top one percent if you're in the system long enough. R If you give me time, learning twice fast, I get to go beat the top. I can get one hundred on the Texas Stars and catch up. even if I start in the bottom, twenty five percent, right You can move up. And the third is We use the rest of the day to teach all the valuable life skills kids are going to need to thrive in this new world. And that's you know, leadership and teamwork, entrepreneurship and financial literacy, storytelling and public speaking relelationship building, socialization, grit and hard work And so that those are the skills, but those are the three things. So if you're coming to Alpha Why are you coming? right? It's putting together a very simple clear product message that everybody understands And the wording, the part that Jim was really great about when you do this when he's like, it's not slloganarans. which is if you can't say the opposite of it then it's not on the list. Like so when we were doing the core values of trilogy in the nineties I was like, well, we obviously have to have integrity on the list And he's like, go, is there ever a company in the world who's like, I'm gonna be the non integrity company. He's like, those are wasted words Those are nonsess words because they mean nothing He's like, I want edge, right? They have to have edge And so like school is a great one. There's lots of people who thought thinkith Kids should love school like well where are they going to learn grit in all these things that love school is anesis. I remember when I put my kids into alpha ten years ago McKinzie and Brian were actually the ones who started it I am What is the thing I don't under about education you know, that And he's like, Well, first Kids must love school Yeah It' sort ofink sp You know, I didn't like school and you just sort of suck it up And this is part of the game. And he's like, you'retally wrong And that is completely true, right? My number one, people want to talk about how they can use typepack or software. And the number one question I asked of every head of school now is Are you willing to rebuild your school so kids love it more than vacation? And if the answer is no, I will not let you use the software for do because it's not going to work Can I ask you a question that sounds really stupid, but I think you'll have a really good answer Why does a kid need to learn two times faster It's not stupid I did it a lot. Everybody's like, why There's a couple of different dimensions. so let's talk about it. The first is, you know, kids spend six hours a day plus homework today, right? They spend six hours a day plus homework on school. And so the answer is if I can build a product, a technology that lets kids learn in h We do that point of the name of our product ind that which is We want to give kids their time back And right now, we suck up twelve years of kids' lives sitting in class and doing homework in the old world for you know for a hundred years, there was no other alternative And now because of learning science and generative AI, you can literally build an engine that teaches kids ten times faster So you're like, well, okay, let's do it Why wouldn't we And you know, back to obvious simplicity, product positioning There's a question of whether it works. But once you believe it works, I need to get the results that show it works Who wants to have their kid be in the six hour learning instead of the two hour learning becausecause then your kid can do other stuff, right the rest of the day. How big is this going be? because I'm I'm completely alpha pilled, not from this conversation, My my kids are both in elementary. I volnter in their schools maybe once or twice a month. It's a great place, but it's very much like bundle of daycare A little bit of education, a lot of learning social stuff. that's great But in terms of just like the learning and the life skills, I don't think It's anywhere near what's possible. And when I heard about Alpha and specifically the five K story, it blew me away. I was supposed to like the AI part And instead, I loveved the part where it was like, cool, after they do the two hours, they had this thing was like, I don't know, second graders or something It's like, who here thinks can run a five K? Nobody raises their hand. So they don't believe themselves they could do it Hey parents, who thinks if their kid had to run a fiveight K right now? they coulds like dude their whatever, first grade or second grade, whatever it was And nobody raises their hands And over the course of whatever, some amount of time, month or two, whatever it was, They were like, Well, great, can we walk? quarter of it right now and then they walked a quarter. And then they were like, yeah, that was could we walk half Could we jog a quarter and they basically did what anybody would do and they sort of trained their way up and the kids all did it. and they were able to do it. And I just thought, man, that's a kind of an incredible experience. I want my kids to have that type of like growth and opportunity. So I think this is going to be big, but you think about this all the time and you've already built companies that you know, are multib billion dollar companies. So how big is Alpha school going to be? eightighty five percent of alpha parents say I saw my kid do something in the last ten weeks that I thought was impossible for their age. This is for the folks out there who have a business that does at least three million dollars a year in revenue. Because around this point, that's when you're able to look up after being heads down for years building your company And you realize two things One, you've done something great. But you're still a long way from your final destination. And two, you look around and you realize, I am all alone. run my peers, which means you're now making ten million dollars decisions alone by yourself. And that is when mediocrity can creep in. My company Hampton, we solve this problem by giving a room of vetted peers of other entrepreneurs who are going to hold you accountable call you out on your nonsense and help show you the way Because the fact is is that there's only a tiny number of people in your town who know what you're going through and who have been there. And they're hard to find. And if you can' find them, it's hard to have this explicit time, this explicit place where you sit down where the rules are clear that we are here to help each other and to be one another's board of directors The biggest risk is not failing. You have a company and it's working, you're going to be fine. But the biggest risk is waking up ten years from now and saying shhit. I barely grew in business and in life And for people like you who are ambitious, wasted potential and regret is what we want to help you to avoid We have made so many of these groups and we have a thousand plus members. and I know this stuff actually works, whether you work with Hampton or you get your own group on your own. But having a group like this, a group of people who you meet with in real life once a month, it can change your life. It change mine and I know it will change yours. So check it out joinhampton d. com We as parents because of the old system and learning two X or ten times or learning these lifeif, running five K's, climbing forty foot rock walls, launching businesses, you know, Broadway musicals O expectations of what kids do is much lower than what their capability is Right The greatest untaaped resource on planet Earth is human potential. And we now have the first chance, right in one hundred years to reenvision it And what we're showing at Alpha is, these kids can do ten times more than we expect I believe big this is going to get is, you know, my view is I'm twenty years and get this to a billion kids And it is going to utterly transform education, you know, for everybody When you think about AI as going to transform the world There is nothing that is going to have there's no part of the world that AI is going to have a bigger impact education. It is the unmitigated win This is the best time in history to be a five year old. twelve years ahead of you are going to be great And so There's lots of work to do do that But I believe that once you realize what's possible and why we get all the what we're showing with alpha, once you show this is possible, there isn't a parent Who doesn't say I don't want this for my kid You were silent for the last twenty years, but you've been quietly building that Why weren't you talking then? And you're talking now, is it just because you need to influence parents to Give this a shot. So there's two parts. One is two thousand vis off the year I got married which was the last time I talked. And so you know, and building the family and being in the limelights harder Right? It's easier if you're just quiet. And second, it didn't help the business. So in the nineties, it really helped the business. didn't help the business after two thousand five. And then now for this, it absolutely does, right? The biggest impediment to change in education Parents Right? Because all we know, right? we're fishing in the water. All we know is the education system we went through and our parents and our grandparents And so there's just massive resistance to change Right? There's disbelief, right? ourur marketing department You know, their's slogan is we educate the parents. Nobody believes this. Like you listen to one of my podcasts, the number one feedback is Well, I don'tve kids can learn ten times faster. I don't believe these kids really love school more than vacation Right? And so back to being out there and the message out, I consider it critical in Education historically hasn't helped. Do a billion students You need like ten million alpha schools or something? How are you gonna do that? I saw you doing the math, Sea. S R right when you said that I saw him type it, I kn do exactly who he was doing out his calculator I mean, if there's one hundred thousand schools in the US, you know, and back to a billion, now there's going to be different ways to get there One is just physical schools, right? And so I am learning how to scale physical schools Right, This is going to be, you know, across the nation. just to give you scale if you want on the business side of this The private school market in the US is about one hundred billion dollars. So it's a huge market where even if I don't get to public school, we will But even if I don't get to public school, hundred billion dollarsar market that gives me a great beachheck. It's why alphaar, It's why we're hing private school is because it's you anchor, right in the credibility and the revenue. that then funds everything out. It's your Tesla Roadster. Yeah. Yeah. Tesla Roadster is a great one So there's that one hundred billion dollar market, and that's USK twelve. How long does that take to make a profit And are you just using youror money? Yeah. so I put in a billion dollars for my software company as the first payment. But back to this, getting to a billion kids is going to take tens of billions of dollars Fixing education is a mult tririllion dollar industry, right? It's the second largest industry besides healthcare. Engly And there's nothing there, right? It's there's no there's no private market players really And so You know, there is definitely the opportunity to build SpaceX for education And so and the capital requirements are high. You want all these campuses. Now we're busy innovating on the business model to show that you can build a profitable business So that Capitalism can provide the capital needed to scale education R? Historically everything in education's been nonprofit. And the problem with nonprofits is nonprofits are non scalable. which is The better your product, the faster your donations go away There's plenty of really good charter schools who have three thousand person waitlists And if B they're head of their school, why don't you open another one? And they're like, I'm waiting on a forty million dollars donation, know to build a new campus I don't have that problem because I have a thousand families in New York City at the info session. Right, Wh as soon as I want capital to build a new campus I'm funding it right now, but everybody's going to be happy to give me capital to build the business secondecond You know, and thinking about alpha. Alpha is the high end privool. You should think Stanford of K through twelve they'll be a couple of hundred locations. thousandousand kid, you know, K twelve u locations But it's five percent of the market You know, we have other physical schools around Austin that we're incubating to figure out where we get product market fit We have a gifted school. They're trying to find one hundred thousand smartest kids who Would you say what would make you love school? They're like more academics. One in twenty kids when you ask them that is like more academics. They want a third power hour in the app. they want Math Olympia, right? They want all that We have a sports academy This is like forty percent of the market, maybe fifty percent of the market which is when you say, what would you love to do kids who are like sports? Texas Sports Academy, you know, our baseball team just won national championship be IMG if you know Right, Our basketball team is number one, you know, our academics are ten times better than MMGs We're rolling out a set of other sport that you'll see for for August where these teams will be the best in the country but also the best academics sort of, you know Alpha preremier academics, but also sports And so we're working on, you know, I don't know if you've heard of Founders schoolchool yet. that we're building for high school. And so we're building all these different school types, but those are you should think, physical schools. And my view of the market is in twenty years, AI iss going to change the world a lot of ways, but in twenty years Parents are going to drop their kids off at a building. ninety percent of parents you have homees school little stuff but it's a niche. ninety percent of parents are going to drop their kids off of a building. and in that building are other kids and adults Right. That's one of the misc, you know,'s rootust terminators stuff it's not, right Kids need adults to develop them, right? And now if we do our job right, what occurs during six hours is totally different We totally transform it in the last hundred years, but that's the market And so we have to bring the physical school Now how do I get to a billion kids, you know, that it's going to take twenty years is not enough to build that many schools. So we're working on other products, O, just the time backack software itself, where if I can go get people who want to build schools or transform their schools, and they realize this isn't tech. failed. The second is we're doing stuff outside of school give you give you one one example. We have someome of the world's best video game developers, right? Bing and they're spending two years building a video game on these concepts And it will be free to learn, you know, think free to play, free to learn for five hundred million kids and it'll start shipping later this year Why? likeike why why do this? Like you you're incredibly wealthy? And then also like you're You're kind of a shark, not in a bad way. You're a tycoon. You're a titan of industry. You're like take over the world type of guy Why school? This is a great question, which is, you know, before I did this and put my billy dollars in I talked to a dozen billionaires who'd all bent over at all spent over a billion dollars on education And to a person, every single person said, don't do it And they're like, it's the lowest RI you can get any philanthropic thing. It doesn't affect it. There's just no You just can't impact it Right? it's just' impossible proble. and like every dumb entrepreneur or good entrepreneur, right? I'm like, I'll be different you know And for me It was one where, you know, the I just had this experience, which was You know, I'm back to the life story. So I was doing the AI, haveving my software company right big, we're making tons of money ailes of cash flow, right? pllenty of money twelve years ago in Austin McKinzie and Brian started the school alpha And McKenzie's like, I'm on over to Alpha. And I'm like, I'm not going to your weird school. I is a weird jankie school. And you know, it took her two years to convince me. And the only way she did was at the at the end of May, St Gabriel gets out And Alpha was still in session, she convinced my two daughters to spend a week, you know before they went to summer camp. And they wouldn't spend a week and came home after the week they' like,ad, I don't want to go to summeramp. We want to go back to alpha. And that was my insight. That was ten years ago. And then I sat and just talked to McKinzie You know, well, our kids, I'm like, this is great for Austin, great for our families. T bad it doesn't scale This stuff just doesn't scale Amen Four years ago when GAI came out, I was like, ah Neural netets right from my high school. They're finally here. and I was like like this will enable alpha to scale to a billion kids. is back to fixing education. First off, you need tons of capital You need somebody who can sit and say, I need a billion dollars on the most well funded principle in history It's going to fund Ed teech at all the Ed tech stuff failed It's never worked, right? All the billionaires are like done with the plans for Pon it And so I sort of just woke up and I'm like, I actually do have the skills,, I think to go try this And now I can tell you four years later, I'm four years into it It was the best decision ever. L my job today is so much better than my trilogy job Not even close. I went four years ago, I went to my team. I'm like for twenty five years, you guys have been telling me how much better you are than me and You know, they guys are great. I'm like so good luck Is the company better now Now that you have a new CEO, Well, two part. Well yeah, it'sically I went and said guys, and I'm going to be your worst shareholder you've ever thought about, which is Yeah know. I'm like, I'm just going to pull every dividend that I can out because I need to fund education. So you're an acquisition company and I return you from being capital intense, I buying companies and turning around. to be in capital light but somehow still making all of those acquisition work because I'm going to be sucking all the capital for education and On the face of it, everybody's like, okay, that seems like an impossible problem. The team actually has done a fabulous job better than I had ever thought of. to be suuper capital efficient The downturn in Saa really helps them. becausecause there's lots of companies now if you want to just know their business, what's happened is we're considered one of the best operators but fast, right? We know how to generate cash flow out of businesses better than anybody And so they're bing to all SaaS companies that have died that are now owned by the private credit, right? The Blackstones and the Backrocks are where you're hearing about, you know why the market cap in Saa is down ninety percent. And they go to them and they say, lookook, you have two choices. Youither can put another hundred, two hundred million. intont this Sast company They've gone bankrupt and reboot it or you can just sell it to us for a dollar and we'll split the cash flow. And you know, four years ago when they did this pitch, everybody's like, yeah, I'm not doing that because I'm going to give another hundred million dollars to this big, you know, the private equity firms, they have a lot of companies in their portfolios that they're just turning over to the credit guys and Those guys go four years ago at faith and hope You know, the last twelve months has completely changed. They're like, oh my God, AI is here. G guys aren't gonna to last at all. The last thing I want to do is write a big check and hopope they can reboot for AI. And they're like, looks like just getting the cash flow is the best thing we can do And so now I't even see the last pipeline laugh around, and I saw twenty billion dollars of pipeline of companies that were they were looking at about splitting the cash flows buying for a dollar. So they did a great job How did you get into buying companies in the first place? So you start trilogy, you're an entrepreneur, you got a product, you're selling it, you're doing that game. Why did you what triggered you to start saying, let's go acquire other companies? What was the moment? Two parts. After the dot com meltdown, fifty percent of our cast customers went out of business than, you know, in two thousand in the dot com town There was two parts that happened configuration market or original market We had tapped out dominated it was full. Then during the downturn, we saw that we're just better operators than the other people. We were able to go through it and make profies All these other software companies were not making that transition. They were dying and They were available for a dollar, right you could buy all these companies for nothing. So we just we just literally was like, okay, well, let's buy a couple and see if we can turn them around. And we did and we made tons of money. I'm like, okay, let's just do this So we bought hundreds of companies since then But it was nothing. This strategy was just like, o Ohh wow, comp' is are really cheap one I'm going buome I heard that you studied Warren Buffett intensely. My journey on this is I had been investing since, you know, high school and at Stanford. I was in the fund. We ran part of Stanford Eowment You know, and I came out of it during the nineties and the boob I'm all like, I'm so great. I remember ninety eight, like reading an interview with Warren Buffett I remember you thinking, manan, that guy's an idiot. Th then after two thousand one I was like Oh Maybe I'm the idiot. Maybe I don't know what I'm doing, right? And my returns weren't good, right? It Really good on the way out, but after the bus, you know my life today were terrible And so I was like, I should probably listen to it. And so I literally just read everything There was not anything back to my standard of being an expert Be beinging an expert, if you're going to be an entrepreneur, you have to be the best in the world in whatever your field is And so My standard b well Here's what I need to do I need to know everything about Warren Buffett so that if I'm watching him being interviewed I can pause it answer the question the way he would. because I know what he thinks, right? I'm so into the way he thinks. And so I literally, that's what I do is We do the same thing with our alpha highigh students where we're like being an expert is one of our pillars. And then when you'd say something that I didn't You know, I'm like, oh, I'm surpris. I would then have to go back and research and figure out why I didn't understand it I love talking to people like you who like we have Darmas Shah, he's the founder of HubSpot. and he's like I'm just because he has have the story where he's like I'm the best ping pong player there is because like one time someone wanted to play ping pong with him and he got beat and he's like, Ohh, I want to be the best because he's competitive someome people it's a boarder game where they just love winning the boarder game. what's your thing? If I'm going to do it really is just why not be the best? It's just, well, why would you do the other? Right is your other alternative. Well, what about you, though? This is actually interesting. Are you using al like what learning techniques have you learned along the way that you yourself are using to learn Sure. So our framework about how to be an expert is, you know, you dive in, right? Our students do the same thing. I do the same thing our students do which is you spend one hour a day Reading and then summarizing their work. So we've created a structure called a brain lift. which is we think a lot about is what is the role of humans and what is the role of AI you know, going forward, like if you're a kid or a mom, you're like, A are you preparing my kid for the AI? you know, the AI age coming We think a lot about that, right of how what is the role that humans are going to play as AIs keep getting smarter And so we have a concept and in learning science, there's this concept of depth of knowledge which is sort of the hierarchy of knowledge, which is D oK one is a fact Do you know facts. The oK too is can you summarize them you have summaries of the facts. TheK three is If you look at all those facts and summaries, can you have insights And then DOK four is really creating new knowledge Oh, I have insights that no one else has because of this and LLMs are very good at helping you do DOK one, two and three. and reasoning around that And then the part that the humans still do really well is do you okay for? creating new knowledge. And so what we do every day is we spend the time reading the current experts that are helping fill your DOK one and DOK two right in this frrain left And then you are having DOK three I'm having insights on it Kids can learn ten times fast is an insult based on the learning science facts, right? You can just derive that DOK four is insights that are so counter to what You know, what it? what do you think that no one else believes So this would be the equivalent of if I asked an LLM, help me design a school, it's going put a teacher in front of a classroom And if I say, wait I want to design a school that doesn't have teachers doing academic teaching The LLM's are going to reject and say that's unethical And so AI is not able to help me. If I load my brainlift basically as context on top of the LOM where it has the DOK one facts, the DOK two summaries, the DOK three insts all on research papers, all this stuff. and they wait Read all this. this into context now des help me design a school. It's like, oh, Yeah, actually based on this, I totally see how alpha can work And then it actually can help me That is the skill we think is critical. We start teaching in ice But is it summarized in you spend you personally are spending an hour a day and then you're literally just summarizing what you're saying. And then do you write out like, here's my insights and my new ideas based off of what I've just read for this last hour? Yeah, I will I'll change my brainlift. So for me and how I exercise it. is I basically have a Twitter of a custom timeline that content and authors, right or experts like ungling science, right? I'm going to go read it and see if there's anything new in there or I'm going to summarize the article and put it in the brainlift. And then if it causes me to have new insights, I'm going you know, I try to have one DK three insight, you know today by standard It doesn't happen all the time, but that's what I'm trying for. You know, DOK four are ones are these are the big ones, right? And then you have that knowledge. And if you work that way, right of having expertise, Right? any field that you want to be an expert in and AIs help you do this, you know, you know, back in the nineties, I did the same thing, which is I would sit in Stanford's Math CS library you know, in nineteen eighty nine, you know, when I'm dropping out. And I would read every paper written about configurators R of how they tried, why they'd failed. You know, back then, it took forever. You'd have to send, you know, to you' have into Germany, Deimler had really good configuration stuff, right And they'd have to send you the paper over, you know, and you'd get it a week later Now literally on an LLM, right? You can learn this stuff really quickly. Dude, how are we going how are we going to convince people to buy shit they don't need or do stuff that they shouldn't do if everyone's a super baby and really smart? L there's like what's what's the world look like when everyone's skinnier? What's the world look like when everyone has access to AI? What's the world look like when a billion people are smarter than they are now by a significant amount? I actually believe, you know, back to this whole thing is I believe the human knowledge graph. I know there's this dystopian view that AI is going cause everybody to be dumb. And if we do it the wrong way, just to be clear, if you take chop chap off on unmanaged Chromebookts and deploy them to kids in K through twelve, those kids are not learning s are cheap pots. It's terrible. I understand why people want to ban AI and do all that stuff. There's also a good way to do it, there's in our wake, you know a very different way. And I believe we should be teaching all the kids a good way because they can learn ten times faster We have a student who's going to be published in nature She will be the first high school student as a lead researcher published in nature And that used to be I have a HhD from Stateford And we are pulling that capability down to a seventeen year old girl And there's ten people at Alpha right behind her who are like, oh, she can do it, I could do it and That concept of like unlocking human potential We haven't even, you know, scratched the surface of what they what you can do You know, if you talk to our sports academy, you know, as an example Be because of the two hours a day in the morning and the, you know, you get skills training in afternoon ar ar Sports Aademy guys are like, we're going be in every field We're going to be the number one team in the country within a year, deciding that's going to be our sport Wait but, how are you going to do that with sports? How are you going make someone seven feet tall You know what I mean? Like to be good at basketball. you have on all things, right? There's human limitations, right? I can't Even with my learn there's knowledge, there's IQ, right? And I can't be a nuclear physicist. I just don't have the cycles, right? Actually in cognitive load theory I don't have the working memory, right? As you get older, you get slower. Like my brain, my neurons fire at about half the speed of my daughter my eighteen year old daughter The difference is I have a knowledge graph. in my brain that I uploaded over the last, you know, fifty plus years allows me to take shortcuts because I know the answer. I don't have to think through In a list of ten things, she has to go through each one I can read the ten things and be like, oh, seven is the anser So I can still get to it, but you have to load knowledge into your brain even as your brain slows down as you get older, or even if you don't have the fastest braining to start with So I can't make people seven feet tall. they're not going to win you know the NBA. but whatever the boundary of your human potential is, we can get you there. Got it. right. We can get you to the boundary. And what the surprising part is your expectation of what your boundary is or what your kids boundary is Rin That's where when you talk about the excitement, the energy and why I get up every day to do this is I literally am surrounded by kids who are just doing magical stuff. And we have to get it out to everybody, right? There is nothing more important to society than raising the next generation Every parent, right? That's your job, every society, that's the most important job is nothing more important. We haven't had an answer for a hundred years we to change it. We now do needes not just to be me Right? I'd have to go get all the best people in the world to work on this problem because it's more important than all the other ones I can see why you outreruited Bill Gates. I'm in. do I finally. Yeah. Well, come on bo. I'm gonna to show you, I'm going to go back to your audience Right? of people who want to start businesses I haven't done it yet because I'm still working on exactly the business model and the go to markets to prove it I'm going to show this is the single best market if you're an entrepreneur to enter a multirillion dollar market with no competitors Dude, is the Catholic church gonna be like, Is it gonna get like the pope knocking on your door and like, Hey, Joe, what are you doing? No, we are working back to this, back to school. So there are Catholic schools that I'm working with. or like how do we adopt to our learning? Because it's just so obvious that no matter what you want, you know, the Catholic Church has a different afternoon they want Right. Everybody has their afternoon But everybody gets, okay, well, why we're wasting the kids time in class. Let's get that two hour learning thing working so that we can then build the afternoon that we think our kids will thrive in. Seaan, is your cup full or what? Oh my gosh. Yeah, It's amazing U I loved it. I love the stories. I love the insights. I love what you're doing. We're big fans. We've been talking about Alpha for a while, so it's fun to have you here Thanks for coming on. Thanks appppreciate it. You're the man. We appreciate you. That's it. That's the pod I feel like I could rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. I put my all in it like a day's on the road. Let's travel, never look. Hey, let's take a quick break. I w want to tell you about a podcast that you could check out. It is called The Science of Scaling by Mark Robert. He was the founding CEO of Hubspot, and he's a guest lecturer at Harvard Business School The guy smart And he sits down every week with different sales leaders from cool companies like Clavio and Vanta, and Open AI. and he's asking about their strategies, their tactics, and how they're growing their companies as, you know head of sales or chief revenue officer. If you're looking to scale a company up, if you're a CRO or a head of sales, that's looking to level up in your career, I think a podcast like this could be great for you. Listen to the science of scaling wherever you get your podcast