Political loyalty and future leadership prospects

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK Who's actually won the Iran War? I'm Tristan Redman. And I'm Assmaahhalid and together we host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. The U.S and Iran say they've struck a deal to end the war But a key question is what's actually been achieved by nearly four months of fighting And is the situation better, worse or the same for the region and Iran? For the full story, check out the global story on bbc dot com or wherever you get your podcast Hello. On Tuesday morning, we got a call from the Education Secretary's office saying that Bridget Phillipson wants to come to newewscast to talk about the social media ban which was announced by the government on Monday. And we thought that would be a good opportunity to dig into some of the details of the policy and some of the reaction to it that we've had in the last thirty six hours. But once we actually recorded the conversation The education secretary was in a much more expansive mood and we ended up talking about what basically her mission to save Britain's childhoods So we thought you wouldd like to hear that whole conversation as an episode of Newscast Newscast Newscast from the BBC. Humanity's next great voyage begins. We are in the midst of a rupture. Nostalgia will not bring back the old order. six se Yeah, It's supposed to be me as a doctor. Ddy has also a special connotation.. Thinking about it like a panto helped Do we play music now? what do we Education secretary Hello. Hello. And thanks for coming in as well, rather than doing it from your laptop in your office. Much better. Have you got your red box with you? Does it travel with you everywhere? I've got my red folder with me so I've got in there what I'm doing today and various documents for various meetings. Good. And I'm all lines to take for. ye exactly. you want I don't see it to hand though, so you're just going to have to rely on your wits. first Social media let's just sort of do the science bit first. So the ban on under sixteen year olds, that will we think that will be in place next spring. That's the intention. We would need to bring forward regulation and that would have to pass through Parliament. But yes, it's our intention that it would take effect then. And will there be a vote for MPs? Because I know it's not leglation, so it's not like a new bill, but will MPs get a vote on it? My anser is yes, because it would be a secondary legislation, form of regulations and therefore there would be a chance people to have their say, although I think it's fair to say that there is widespread support across Parliament for in this area, we obviously legislated through the Children's Wellbeing and Schools Bill to allow us to take on these powers to bring forward further regulation in this area And it willll be a list of ten apps initially that the ban will apply to So it will be those where you've got both the content and the algorithm and the ability to engage in that way, which is why it's important how we define social media that will obviously require careful kind of consideration over time as different technologies develop I do think this is the right thing to do because You know, we've seen more and more young people just drawn into spending almost endless amounts of time on social media, and I do worry about just the impact of spending so much time on screens and devices. Its Social media is an important element of this, but it's not the only element. And I think particularly with our youngest children It's not actually about social media. it's just about the length of time that children are spending looking at screens often from a very young age and all of the potential downsides. So this is one element very important element of how we give children their childhood back. This runs hand in hand with a much bigger piece of work across government that also that I'm leading around around childhood, around young people feeling happy about experience in school, a sense of belonging feeling that actually you have other things to do other than just eam sccrolling Yeah, and we'll on too that in a second, but just just in terms of what's actually going to be implemented. And then the second set of things is related to things like doom scrolling. There'll be a sort of a list of actions tools, features of apps that will be limited for people between the ages of sixteen and seventeen. That's the sort of the second part of this. So there be a further update to all of this in July later on this year, where we'll look at further measures. We've set out the first steps that we intend to take. But there are questions as well, and we are taking action on AI chat bots where they can drive young people to highly inappropriate material Basically the romance chat bs. Yeah. and where we've seen some awful incidents involving young people who might be feeling, you know seriously mentally unwell and that can lead to some devastating outcomes I think it's important, however to draw a distinction between the harms that can come from that kind of technology and actually the real benefits that can come of technology when used well. And there are enormous opportunities to be explored around the use of technology to help children's learning And that's why as we take action and In some areas, we also have to guard against unintended consequences where technology used well can be transformative. in the right hands, with the right tools, with the right you know, supervision and oversight AI is going to change a lot of things in education, some of it actually really positively. Well, we saw that in some of the reactions yesterday to the announcement about the ban. and one of the examples was, okay, say you've got a thirteen year old child who's obsessed with physics. R now, they can go on YouTube, for example and watch endless lectures by the world's best physicists, which they will get a lot out of When this ban is in place because YouTube's covered by it, that thirteen year old physics fan is not going to get that content. So I think there are also questions for the platforms in some of this. So we've got, for example, YouTube kids that's targeted at younger children where that wouldn't be within the scope of what we're talking about. It's a different kind of platform If youTu want to come up with something that's an intermediate option that doesn'tow that allows that young person who wants to watch history documentaries to continue to watch them but isn't then getting all of these short reels that's a different proposition. and also I think it's also true around young children and screens. So we've set out screen time guidance for the under fiveives. so helpful advice to parents about what a good use of screens would look like. So basically with under twos, don't above the age of two an hour a day and try and do it in a way that is interactive with your child, not just giving a child a device and saying get on with it If a parent wants to sit and watch content with a thirteen year old on cond World War or whatever physics documentary. That's a very different kind of proposition to children being allowed unfettered access. strangers harmful material, being able to be contacted by people they've never met. We've allowed children to be exposed to things inside the home that we just wouldn't allow outside of the hole. so basically, you would be okay with a mom or a dad or a carer saying, o right, I'll watch that physics video with you on my YouTube account that I've logged into with my age verification as an over sixteen year old. I think parents I think parents have to make choices about what is also appropriate for their children. I think it's right that the government regulates to make sure that as far as possible children have be healthy childhoods without harm But there is always a rule for parental responsibility in this. It's not to blame parents. it's just to say, look Sometimes parents will be a good judge of what is appropriate for their child at a different point I think government has a role to play in setting out those parameters as we have done with the screen time guidance we've issued for the under fives But then if a parent wants to sit and watch you know see bBies with their child for an hour and an evening. whoo am I to stop them doing that? Yeah, because I was going to say you must feel a little bit of trepidation that you're going to be accused of being the nanny state and kind of get going into people's living rooms and telling them how to behave. Look I think there is real support amongst parents for the action that we're taking around social media and the under sixens This can drift into tricky territory if you're not careful, but I think it's reasonable that government sets out that bigger framework But alongside that gives parents the practical, helpful advice that they need about how to manage How manage a world where technology is transforming everythingverything about the world of work Eeducation whole range of different things and adults are no different to children in sometimes you know, being the worst offenders actually, where it comes to the use of technology You know, for example, we what are you getting at? We're all guilty of it. I mean I don't pretend that I'm a saint There is an opportunity cost. So if as a parent, you're spending a lot of time looking at a screen with your child. It's not just the child's exposure to screens, it's also your responsibilities as a parent. And I don't say that in a way to be judgmental because I know lots of parents have it really hard. L I know it can be really tough being a parent, especially for the first time And that's why government stepping in by where government only can with providing massive investment and resources into bestest start family hubs so that there are more free and cheap activities for children and families, more early advice around things like Health visit the support know, if children are having difficulties around speech and language, being able to access that far more quickly, you know free rhyme time, stay and play. That's where government needs to step in because alongside this big explosion in technology we've seen over the last decade or so We've also seen a massive contraction in resources and support available to parents, and that's what we're trying to turn around. I'm intrigued though that you're hoping or you're saying that one of the spin off benefits of the ban on social media. So the sort of headline thing is that everyone of every age who's got caring responsibilities looks at their own behavior You're trying to create a new world here with our relationship with screens. We do need to look at our own behaviour and if you look at Reading, for example. So we'd seen a big drop off in recent years in the number of children reading for pleasure Actually for the first time in five years that started to increase, which is fantastic because we're in the middle of theational Ye year of reading where we're trying to really change people's experiences. But look adults spend a lot of time scrolling in the way that in the past they might have been reading or doing other things So I do think we have to consider how we behave all of us and I don't exclude myself from them as we think about what we want for our children. but Of course there are differences with children because For lots of reasons, we put in place various age limits on certain things because we think they're harmful or not good for children or that they shouldn't be exposed to certain things when they're too young to understand the full context And that's why it's right that in parallel, we also put in place tougher regulation around things like social media Have you discussed this with your own children yet? Because they're I can't remember exactly what age they are, but I feel they're in scope for this. half and we u My kids follow the news quite closely and they like to read what's going on newspapers and so forth. We have discussed it. You'll appreciate that It's also important that my children, you know their have their own privacy and they don't choose what I do. Let's put it another way. Having had the conversations with your own children, what advice or learnings have you got from how to broach the fact that some of their favorite apps like Snapchat are not going to be available to them next year But I think it is the right thing to do and it won't be universally popular amongst young people. I think that's safe to say, particularly those who have already got access to certain platforms. But I think what lots of parents are really pleased about is that it will stop other young people getting caught up in that. because younger children who aren't already on those platforms don't already have smartphones It starts to close that down before they reach that point of it becoming peer pressure thing, you know we know that lots of parents will say that They don't want their only child sorry, they don't want their child to be only one in a class that doesn't have this And you know lots of schools have taken action on this. We support them. phones have got no place in schools But there are also considerations that parents will have about They might want their child to have a smartphone so they can keep in touch at the end of the school day but they might not at the same time want them to be going on social media at a young an age. So that's why The changes we're bringing will strike that right balance At the same time childildren have drifted into a world where They can see an awful lot online that we wouldn't regard as good for them. In fact, a lot of what they might say, we wouldn't regard as being good or healthy or sayfe for adults to really be consuming At the same time when their worlds have often become smaller. in terms of their face to face or real world interactions. Now Some of that is because there are fewer opportunities and it's my job and I' you know, seeking to massively expand activities like music and sport and art and drama both in school and around school But I think also The nature of childhood has changed quite a lot. and in the past where it was far more usual for children to walk to school by themselves Cycle around on a bike by themselves, go and visit friends, goo out all day. be out and back at tea timee there was no means of keeping in touch. You know phones were not a thing when I was a child. You just had to set a time when you came back and you had certain parameters around that I think this will allow young people to experience a lot is important as you grow up, which is Understanding boundaries. becoming yourself as an individual parents having have a degree of trust about what works and a level of independence, off course, understanding and managing that risk. Yeah But I think we've ended up in this odd paradox of more exposure at home in the child's bedroom to quite harmful things and a reduction in the ability for children to take safe risks as they grow up in their local community. And this's good I understand some of the I understand why sometimes parents will be nervous I think we've got to allow children to be children, and that doesn't just mean taking things away And we do need to act, but it means opening up other possibilities. Well Yeah, for example, you can't say go out and play now that you've got loads of time saved from looking at Instagram when you still also have knife crime. So yeah, I get that point. What I can't stop thinking about is are we going to have this generation and I can't quite work out what ages they are, but a generation of peopleeople who are sort of entering their teens now who've been exposed to a lot of social media, a lot of bad stuff. They always will have been. That generation will now just get older and older and older. And so the generation before them didn't have it. The generation below look younger than them won't have it as a result of this. And then you have this sort of like cursed generation. who've had to put up with all of this stuff. I hope not. know Yeah. I hope not. and I think it is sometimes hard to understand the impact in the evidence in isolation. So I think the emerging evidence is clear about the impact of long term you know extensive exposure of young children to screens. It is becoming increasingly clear that there are downsides to that that have whether it's speech and language development, children's ability to regulate much more bides, but that's emerging and it's toally clear picture. However, if we wait until that point it could well be too late that's part of the challenge I think it's also important. So you acknowledge that the evidence isn't a slam dunk yet. Youre kind of do doing this as a precaution re. I think yes, the evidence, I think the evidence may only become slamed dunk at the point at which we've gone past a point We've gone past the point of no return and that's part of the trouble. It Certainly the approach we took around The advice to parents on screen time and the under Fives was very much on the basis of the precautionary approach and the precautionary principle, which I think is right given that we're talking about our youngest children um, and they and There There is no harm that comes of being allowed to have less time on a screen when you're very young. I don't see the harm that comes of that. but we know there could be potential long term consequences of being allowed to have too much time on devices. So The evidence isn't absolutely slam dunk We can't separate this out from I think, some of the wider experiences the children have had in recent years and some of the other areas of concern that I have about how we've moved as a society. B big expansion, know the huge kind of growth of child poverty, the numbers that we see, that has a big and devastating impact on children's life chances. And if you live in a community where there isn't very much in terms of wider opportunity or where you don't feel that you belong, you don't feel that you're going to achieve very much and you don't feel that there are good opportunities around work and where you move beyond school, then You feel hopeless and then that online world can kind of step in and actually make things worse, but it's not the only factor. So alongside the action we're taking on social media that has to be coupled with more opportunities for young people which we are delivering alongside tackling child poverty, where we've got the most ambitious agenda of any government even more ambitious than the last Labour government in bringing down those numbers and a much bigger focus on family support on making sure that parents, when their children are young feel well supported and that their children are able to thrive. So it has to be all of that together. It's a social media ban alone is not going to fix every problem that every young person in this country is experiencing at the moment. Well I'm just thinking, you must have seen the clip that went viral yesterday of the girl in Lancashire going, Oh, I did nine hours of screen time at the weekend. And my colleague says, and what will you do with the nine hours you' just got? She goes, stare at a wall I mean, she's obviously that's a joke, but you realize that's then a lot of extra hours to fill. And some of the stuff that you're talking about there, music lessons or access to culture, that's a few hours, isn't it? Yeah There's now going to be like the big job of filling those kids time I thought she was brilliant. I thought she was really really dead Pan and it lik comedy career backackends. Yeah, I thought she was thought I thought it was both insightful but also the delivery. she's got a great career ahead of her I'm sure. There is that. and I don't think government shouldn't seek to fill every hour of a young person's life with with activities. I mean, there is Obviously a dimension here where if you're from a less well off background, you're less likely to have those opportunities. and that's why I think it is important that whoever you are and wherever you live you have access to music, to sport, cultural activities. and also that you've got parents who've got enough money to do some of that with you, a trip to the beach and ice cream in the park, all of the things that make family life in childhood such a joyful experience, or at least should be a joyful experience. There is nothing wrong with kids being bored. That is also an important part of growing up you bore and find go and find something to do. and I don't say I don't say that dismissively for young people where that is more limited But actually But go and find something yout. You know as a mom and I know as an uncle, although my niece nephew are now too old for this, but dealing with the bored child and finding something for them to do can be quite taxing can be. Do doesnt no harm to be told go and find something to do What would you do when you were bored I about you read I about you were never bored because you probably always had a book to read I mean, I did read, but actually much of my childhood, or particularly my teenagers we used to just wander around the town You know, We sometimes will see young people where they're hanging around and sometimes that can be intimidating or it can be not with good intention. If we see a group of young people, we think What are they up to? And I appreciate it for all the residents. it can be intimidating. equally We said Leave the house, I go meet my friends We'd wander around for hours, we'd hang around the park, we'd goone by some chips We got the shopping center, we got one my friend's house. I'd get on my bike,'d cycle to my grandparents, I'd be out all day No mobile phone I knew when I had to be back by and I knew where to go if there were problems and That was done in a way where It was understood what what was within my in a way that was age appropriate. And you also have to take a judgment as a parent as to the level of maturity of your child Al alsoso how you would need to feel confident that they could respond if something went wrong So where would they go for help if they ran into trouble? And that's important too. But these are quite important rites of passage actually growing in independence. And ye,ing to be bored. Yeah. mean maybe some journalists could do with that And I think learning understanding who you are as a person and learning how to how to kind of deal with a world is that can be quite frightening for young people. that with the right boundaries and right support around you from your parents, you can start to learn to navigate that world And I think for young people this was the point earlier about their experiences and they're a generation that grown up with social media. That's true, but there're also a generation that came of age during the pandemic when lots of the experiences that were normal for children, meeting up with friends you know going to a cafe, whatever it might be, meeting up in the town centre. But that wasn't allowed. You couldn't do that. and schools were closed for extended periods to many children So It has been qu quite a fraught time for lots of young people. I do think we need to recognise the impact that has had and actually continues to have children for families. I'm thinking back to the pandemic. And do you remember when you were in opposition? and do you remember Boris Johnson had commissioned that piece of work about catching up? And what was the guy's name again? Tevin Collins. Kevin Collins, yes. And he resigned because the government wasn't willing to stump up the billions that he thought were necessary to get that generation back on track Looking back, do you think actually the response to picking those children up and helping them recover from the pandemic was to oose the Scottish word Pewally, not effective enough It wasn't good enough although I'm delighted. you're also part of the response as well because it's overlapped. Yeah. and Kevin Collins now works with me in the Department for Education. so he's working He's working with me I can. He's working with me every day. So I think there are two things. the response It wasn't good enough, but it actually wasn't just the response in terms of educational recovery. I think if ever we end up in a situation like that, again Why is it took so long to open playgrounds? Why did we not prioritize children children's well being and children's life chances in the way that we should have done? And there is emerging evidence through the inquiry as to how we failed to take children's needs seriously at that time Why age women have to you know, give birth a alone and all of that. It was a really tough time for lots of people. But I think on the onn the kind of wider catch up side One of the key areas that Kevin Collins identified was the length of the school day as being a barrier to some of that. And Whilst what I'm about to say is not quite the same thing We are rolling out free breakfast clubs across the country. That means when we get to the end of the Parliament and every single primary school in our country has a breakfast club That's an extra thirty minutes of childcare for parents. It's another thirty minutes where children can be with their friends, have a breakfast, have that soft start to the day. It's not mandatory, off course it isn't but it is It is in effect, an extension of the school day, which was something that Kevin argued for at the time. And if money were no object and if I had a magic wand. Yeah. then I think there is this question about what we tried to cram in into quite a constrained period of time.cause what I was getting at was you've now had two years. and I'm just wondering and that means you've got a record to reflect on. And I'm just wondering if you look back and think, oh, we should have done more sooner. And okay, people might love breakfast clubs and they're not for free. so there's money being spent on them. But actually should you have done more because it was such a crisis for that group of children We have done a huge amount both in terms of investment in school and around school. know Lisa Andy's been doing brilliant work around the national Youth strategy around expanding opportunities for young people. So We've got a strong record on that But of course by twenty twenty four, the pandemic had you Things had moved on and decisions that could have been taken weren't taken. Now I don't say that just to make a part at standpint, I think the last goovernment could have done more to invest in education at that stage But I think there is also just a bigger question for all of us as a country where if in future we end up in this kind of situation, How do we really make sure we think seriously about the impact on children. And we didn't. And that's not just about one political party, it's about our approach as a whole society in recognizing the impact that can be had when children don't have what they need when they're younger. and that's not just about school, it's also We reopen pubs before we reopen playgrounds I mean, I'm all for support in the hospitality industry but I also think kids should be able to go and go to a playground, especially if they don't have a garden at home. Yeah. Just going back to what you said about breakfast clubs and lengthing the school day and do we cram too much into quite a short period of time? Is there an argument for an even longer school day I mean, there is, but it also costs an awful lot of money. That's a bit the argument are you on? Well, if money were no object, I know what I would do, but that's not the world in which we live. Oh, in an ideal world, when would school finish then? six six thir? I think it's a bit much. but you would certainly, I think you wouldn't necessarily just use that time So kind of the traditional academic side of things, you would also make sure that you're able to allow know for wider opportunities for young people as a part of that. this This is a distant dream because the costs are phenomenal We face big challenges at the moment around making sure that we invest more in our schools than we are, and there is more to do You know, Kevin Collins, who's a brilliant, you know, who is brilliant and has A all the evidence, there is a very strong case for of course there is. That's not something not something sadly I canag at the moment. Right a few other things. Just before you came into the studio, John Healley was doing his resignation statement in House of Commons. so that traditional thing that people can choose to do after they resigned from the cabinet. He said The government should be aiming to spend three percent of GDP so the whole economy on defence by twenty thirty Is he right? because that is more ambitious the government's current target So as you say, I haven't seen it. I was coming here when John was making that speech. I think we all recognize that there is a need to spend more on defence above and beyond what we've already committed to. So we're already committed to the biggest kind of biggest levels of defence spending since the Cold W war. Yeah, that's a bit that's already been done. That's already been done about three percent many Thursday. And there's more to come. I mean, those discussions are underway as to both the extent of the funding and the times scales around that. That's not something I'm closely involved in. that's not my role. Yes, we do need to spend more, but I will leave it to others to consider those questions around level and pace. You wouldn't say three percent by twenty thirty this is for other colleagues across government to resolve. and we are intent on bringing forward the defefense investment plan and setting out the further investment will come that will come. But I do think it is important to recognise and I'm sure that John himself obviously recognizes because he delivered this and did a brilliant job as Defense seecretary in getting defense spending up levels that we haven't seen since the Cold War. And in your department, have you had to cut or trim your capital budget so that that money can be reallocated to defence in future Yes, I've made sure that my department makes our contribution to this. I believe that it is the right thing to do to make sure that we're spending more on defence alongside the big capital programm that we have to rebuild schools across our country, and I believe we can do both of those things. What have you had to give up? That will be published in the fullness of time, but I'm confident in what we have agreed to It is the right thing to do for the country But alongside that, it will still allow us to deliver a really ambitious programme of renewal at our schools and colleges. Although it was interesting over the weekend Lisa Nandy when she was chatking to Laura on Sunday morning, said, o, or she suggested that maybe there was going to be another go at funding this defense investment plan and maybe there'd be another round of can we find even more money for this? But it sounds like that's not what's happening. It sounds like the settlement was done. a couple of weeks ago or a week ago and it's closed now I'm not closely involved in these discussions, but what I would I not ask you to find more money What I would imagine is happening is that Dan Jarvis is the new defefense seecretary will want to take a careful look at all of this, If I were in his position, that's exactly what I want to do. Okay Kirarmer, your boss is at the G seven summit in France. He has said again today that basically he would stand and fight in any future leadership contest U I wouldon't try and catch you out because you're an experienced politician. But if the Pime Minister is fighting a leadership contest because one has been launched and it's bad for him, it's bad for the country, it's bad for your party Would you think it would be a good idea that he did stand and fight So there's a lot of hypotheticals that we have to overcome before we get to that point. and I know that's what you were getting at with the first part of your question Kst Stmer secured a huge win for us as Prime Minister, as Labour leader and then Prime Mister in july twenty twenty four. He secured that mandate and the trust of the British people to deliver all of the things that we said we would do during that election campaign. and he has my support to keep doing that There isn't a contest I don't want there to be a contest And I hope that we can get on with focusing on delivering what people voted for. But in the event there is a contest, I think it's a perfectly reasonable proposition Kistama would seek to to fight that? I mean, why wouldn't he? He you know, he was the labour leader who took us to a big election victory And he will feel, I imagine that he has a mandate to continue to drive things forward. And would you support him in that contest? The Prime Minister Kya continues to have my support toughult job being Prime Mister. you say, he iss off at the G seven at the moment. making sure that whether it's on Ukraine, defence investment, that we're doing what is right by the country and I have never had calluse to question his motivation, the intention behind what he's seeking to do have Have we got things wrong as a government? Yes, we all have Of course, that is about the Prime Mister. He's the leader of our party in the country He holds responsibility for that and he takes that incredibly seriously. But we all do we've all got, you know responsibility in actually making this government work more effectively in doing things better as a labour government Right, We've run out of time, but just to end where we began, I was at the cinema the other day there and the trailer for Toy Story five came on. Do you know who the Baddy is in the new Toy Story te It's a tablet. Okay. So basically Pixar are making your case for you. There we are. And I think this probably this probably reflects a bit of a O a a shift A bit of a shift. Yeah. I think it probably does. Beause actually three years ago, the tablet wouldn't have been theady, would they? They'd be on the goody side just as another toy. No, but just to be slightly boring about this, Have you seen it? I haven't. No you're going correct my I I haven't seen it M most ofly my kids are a bit too big for me to have to go wash this now. but look it's not the tablet, it's the use of the tablet Yes. So if you are you know, using it for good educational purposes overseen by a teacher. That's not the same thing as being sat doom sccrolling. So ye I think we do need to just be slightly careful that as we take action on the things that we worry about We don't lose sight of the benefits that come of technology, we're done properly Thanks for coming into the newscast studio. Thank you Who's actually won the Iran warar? I'm Tristan Redman. And I'm Asma Kalid and together we host the Global Story podcast from the BBC The U.S and Iran say they've struck a deal to end the war. The key question is what's actually been achieved by nearly four months of fighting, and is the situation better, worse or the same for the region and Iran? For the full story, check out the global story on bbc dot com or wherever you get your podcast So that was my conversation with Bridget Phillips, the Education Secretary which we recorded at about two o'clock on Tuesday. Here are my main takeaways. First of all, we should note she was very, very loyal to the Prime Minister about a future leadership contest. and not all of her cabinet colleagues have been that loyal when they've been asked the question The other point was she was a bit more nuanced in her views about children and social media and screens than the government was when they announced their ban on social media on Monday. So I just wonder if that policy and the government's view and actually the conversation we have about this stuff is going to be tweaked a little bit before the ban comes into force in spring next year