The Rise of Andy Burnham

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK What do Beatles member Sepaul McCartney, YouTube megastar, Mrter Beast, and former Facebook executive Cheryl Sandberg all have in common? They're all being discussed in the new season of Good Bad Billionaire, the podcast which explores the lives and fortunes of the world's super rich. That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, search for Good Bad Billionaire wherever you get your BBC podcasts the question my party is asking now is whether I am best placed to lead us into the next general election I have heard the answer of my Parliamentary party to that question. And I accept that answer with good grace Every decision I've taken has been about putting the country I love first That is why I will resign as leader of the Labour Party. Kir Starmer there just outside number ten Downing Street having announced his resignation this morning after Chris months speculation And he's resigned, what, less than two years after winning a pretty thumping majority It's amazing, isn't it It is really. Yeahah. And you know what, James having covered every twist and turn of the frrankly, downfall of Kia Starma. Still to stand there in the street anticipating that moment where The guy in the t shirt comes out with the lectern and the mixing desk and the speakers And then the staff pile out of number eleven and form a semic circle in the corner of the street and cheer the departing prime Mister out into the street. I've seen that happen three times in the last four years and that doesn't include Rishi Sunak, who just lost a general election as opposed to losing his job in between elections is still one heck of a moment. It's one heck of a moment, one heck of a moment politically It says something that perhaps is worth discussing about our country, the speed with which at the moment we get through Prime Ministers. And you feel it personally, you could hear it in the Prime Minister's voice You could see it in the Prime Minister's wife's expression lot to talk about, Chris on this episode of Newscast. Newscast. Newscast from the BBC. I will resign as leader of the Labour Party. And what will you do stred at all. Humanity's next great voyage begins. You know I like my busses. I'll come ono them. It's supposed to be me as a doctor.. Thinking about it like a panter helped. Do we play music now what do we do Hello, it's James in Edinburgh And it is a crooaky Chris in Westminster. And Joe Bite also in Westminster. Hi, James. Listen, Chris, the voice, we have to talk about your voice very quently, what's going on Ill tell you what's going on. It's the G seven in Evan followed by an All nighter in Wiggan followed by a weekend that was at the busier end of the spectrum followed by a Monday morning that was at the bonkers end of the spectrum. I feel absolutely fine But I think my voice is wearing the workload of the last week or so. Yeah, fair enough. I'm not sure the Prime Minister feels final, or maybe he does. Maybe he feels better having done this. I suppose the big question to start with is for both of you What happened to push him over the edge and everyone's taught for so long about the possibility of this happening. Some people have said it's been inevitable for a long time. It was the straw that broke the camel's back I think To be honest, James, it was the appearance of a successor who many in his party thinks would be okay at the job and certainly better than him. that being Andy Burnham's election last Friday morning in the early hours But I suppose if we take a step back This premiership has been on the slide for many months. There's been a bit of a sense of decay around Seiist St Aam administration for a while, and I think his premiership will be remembered as one of early eras, of wasted opportunities and of plummeting popularity in the popularity is so central. The stats on his personal popularity are pretty astonishing. Now maybe partly that's because of political world we now live in But we saw the results of that in Scottish Welsh and English local elections a few weeks ago And I think with somebody who is so unpopular Labour MPs decided, Look, we need someone new and somebody who can maybe help us keep our jobs. What point did that happen, Chris, do you think? do we know at what point he made this decision in the end Over the weekend, I think, I think in the aftermath of the by election, particularly given the scale of Andy Burnham's victory in that dlection He'd already been If you like, nursing the reality of some senior figures in his cabinet having told him privately he ought to set a timetable. The only reason that was sustainable for a handful of weeks was because the by election was ongoing And nobody could be quite certain until the result, quite what the political landscape would look like wards, what was guaranteed to be at least part of the political landscape afterwards, irrespective of the outcome of the by election is that the pressure would crank up again prime M minister and he would have to address the reality that he had cabinet ministers who were basically saying the boss ought to go. and the only way you resolve that is either by listening to them and doing what he did this morning or sacking them placing them with somebody else in so doing creating chaos and given the volume of discontent within the government, probably prompting other resignations. In other words, you'd be into a scenario where your government would be disintegrating in public And I think the Prime Minister confronted by the prospect of that went for the option that was less spectacular, less volcanic, more maintaining of his dignity and chose the window to do it just before Andy Bernon was going to get on that train in Manchester and travel to London and where the momentum would inevitably switch towards him. So the Prime Minister chose a moment this morning, just after nine o'clock where he could grip the agenda and Use what agency if you like. He had left, not a lot, but a bit and make that statement, knowing how the day was going to pan out. Firstly, as I say with Andy Burnham, coming to Westminstrer, being sworn in and all the rest of it And then secondly, by the way, the Prime Minister had the prospect of a cabinet meeting tomorrow morning. I don't think that would have been politically sustainable to hold. without having said what he said this morning because well you can imagine the kind of questions that Je I mean, it wouldn't me shouting becausecause I've got a terrible voice. but someone like Joe or others might have been shouting in the direction of those cabinet ministers as they went in if Kir Stahmer had not said what he said this morning. Joe, I want to get your thoughts on that as well, but let's just because you mentioned it, Chris, let's have a little bit of a listen to a bit more of that speech because you talked about the pressure Ker Starmer and you can hear it in the end in his voice. I will also give my successor my full and unequivocal support knowing that they will inherit a Britain but is far stronger and fairer. that the one I inherited two years ago better prepared for the challenges ahead and better able to ensure the Labour Party secures a second term in office I want to thank all of those friends and colleagues who have been at my side for these past six years or so for their incredible commitment, service and support I want to thank the brilliant numberum ten staff and our country's extraordinary civil service who dedicate their lives to public service. And when I leave the biggest job in the country I shall spend more time on the most important job being the best husband I can to my fantastic wife Vick, who has been a rock by my side through good times and bad and being the best dad I can to my beautiful children. Who are my pride and my joy Thank you very much. He's widely recognized as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballondor Award five times. He's the all time leading goal scorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires indndex, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about, yah? That's right, Good Bad billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Christiano Ronaldo. That's good bad billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. So Joe, I mean, we're actually getting quite used to these speeches now. someome of them emotional. I mean, remember various others Theeresa May was emotional. Gord Bown from memory was emotional. But I mean, people have one of the criticisms of Kar Starmer has been, oh, he sounds quite robotic and he's got this delivery that's not really connecting with people and is he really emotional and authentic and people do they ve authenticity in their politicians. well If they crave it, they're getting it now on his way out the door. It seems They certainly are. And I suppose that's maybe one of the tragedies of of Kir Stahmer's time in this job, that yeah, he's getting sort of sympathy today, maybe in that final section talking about his wife and kids, I'm not sure sympathy is something really political leaders really want. But it was a level of emotion we've never seen from him before and I think it is quite revealing as to the personal toll that all of this must have had on him, not just the fact that him and his wife and family are in the spotlight. But you know his kids are teenagers. We're not talking about David Cameron, who had kids under ten and Bn Brown, I think sort of similar age, but kids who probably having lots happening in their lives, including I bet school exams. and also of course, what a couple of weeks ago we had the conclusion of that trial. of the men who'd launch an arson attack on the house that the Prime Minister had lived in where his sister in law was still living in. So a lot of stuff must have been happening behind the scenes. and he now says, James that he willll be focusing on being a dad and being a partner too But it must be reallyally something to stand up notot just in front of your office or in front of your colleagues in the canteen or in front of your boss, but in front of the many, many bosses that one has as Prime Minister all over the country, including newscasters, many of them and admit that you've failed. Totally. And I think that's for me is one of the fascinations of covering politics. politics public life. is the expression out loud of variations of what we could all imagine in our own professional or personal lives but played out on the public stage So as you say, James, imagine that overlap in any of our lives between the professional and the personal. where a spouse or a partner is stood down in the street when we're standing down from a job Everybody watching and listening has a view as to whether you've been any good at that job I'm where your emotions will be exposed in that moment because of how raw the situation is And then the roller coaster from Kir Stahmer's perspective, know it's under two years ago that he was being clapped into the street, that the Union flags were being flown and waved by labor supporters lining the street. that here was a guy who had dragged his party off the canvas of their biggest election defeat since nineteen thirty five, one of only two labour leaders alive to have won a majority in the House of Commons, Tony Blair the other one where he is now and the speed with which As Joe was saying a few minutes ago, his popularity noseedive speed with which Labour MPs, particularly after the elections of six weeks ago came back with a sense that he disproportionately was the reason for Labour's unpopularity. And then throw into the mix on top of that, Andy Burnham winning the Make of Field by election against a insurgency like reform in a part of the Northwest of England where reform had done spectacularly well just a handful of weeks before. and whilst it's imperfect because clearly Andy Burnham's very popular in Greater Manchester and to what extent does that stretch beyond that city region, Labour MPs see in Andy Burnham, at least for now, a winner when frankly, for a while They've been seeing a loser in Ked armor. And Ked Amor has clearly failed and failed fast in government. I mean he achieved quite lot in opposition, right, turning around the fortunes of his party very, very quickly But it was also interesting him setting out what he sees as his achievements today We certainly, because We've seen what's coming been thinking and preparing for this possibly happening I'd say, what probably four months now, the NS Sarwas Scottish Labour leader call for Kstarers ago is probably the key start of that So we've been putting together pieces thinking about Kest Stara's legacy. and it wasn't actually that obvious and clear four months ago. We probably would have said his big legacy was a very positive relationship with Donald Trump. Well, that has slightly fractured, but Starmer's team would argue fractured for a good reason because they say he made the right call on the Iran warar and UK opposition parties didn't. But also today, James he was tries out his domestic legacy, which isn't that clear, you know, one key part of it is very recent and hasn't been implemented which is that a social media ban for under sixteenens. Other things we probably talk about might be the scrapping of the two child benefit cap. new laws to strengthen workers' rights. And there are some positive signs in different parts of the public sector But arguably his successor may be the person who really gets to benefit At least partially because, not entirely, but at least partially because across a five year term A lot of the achievements that any party will point to tend to stop bearing fruit towards the tail end and we're not even at the halfway point yet I have I suppose a question. we've talked a lot about Starmer, but I have a question about the wider picture here Are we being unfair and saying this guy, particularly this guy wasn't very good? And despite having a majority of one hundred seventy four, he's out the door because of his own failures as a leader as a prime minister or given that we are now on heading towards Prime Minister number seven in the decade since the UK voted to leave the European Union Is that a bigger issue here for the United Kingdom? I mean, when you talk to people here in Scotland who support Scottish independence and we've heard similar criticism from other political parties in other parts of the country. And you as you know, we have nationalist first ministers in Cardiff, Belfast and Edinburgh now. And what you hear from some of those people is saying Look, the problem here is not any one individual or even any one political party. The problem is that Britain is not working and that there is entrenched low growth, entrenched low productivity, entrenched inequality. And if you're a Scottish nationalist or a supporter of Scottish independence, you might say Yeah, look, everybody's had a crack at fixing this. The Conservatives and the liiberal Democrats have been in government Labor have now been in government. and still the UK's deep rooted underlying problems persist. Now, I'm not getting into an argument here about I'm not making this about Scottish nationalism or Scottish independence. My point is that's just a vehicle through which to ask the question. know, but the question and whether or not that's a better solution or not is sort of moot for the purposes of this discussion. But you get my underlying point Is there something fundamentally going wrong with the UK that is leaving it unable to be governed by prime mininister, after prime mininister, after prime Minister? And if so, what So I think the key thing to recall or remember here is that when we talk about Ker starmers, successes and failures that the judgment that matters more than ours or matters more than any newscasters is the judgment of the Labour Party in Labour Mpees. It's they who have decided that he's a failure and should go Now why have they done that? Because principally, they fear the march of reform UK Politically The wider point where we try and delve into Well, how come This happened to a succession of Conservative leaders as well, I think is the deeper and more Profound one. too what extent is it about He sense of an expectation of immediacy in a where we can You know, order a pizza or a book or a bath plug that arrives within A couple of hours or whatever To what extent and there are plenty across the political spectrum who think this is a big, big factor. Is it about the lack of any sense of solid economic growth going back fifteen years to two thousand eight. Best part of twenty years now if you're in an environment where there isn't much economic growth. donon't be surprised, goes the argument people are lacking in patience and very quickly tire of politicians who promiseed change that word on the Labour manifesto And then in the view of plenty don't actually Delver it And to what extent is that underlying factor that has done for suuccessive conservative leaders and now a labour leader And we shouldn't also let istara not allow us to mention H errors, he made quite a few errors and some of them really quite quickly I mean Winter fuel payments was something they annnce to re anounce in the comments. less than thirty days in, although it took them eleven months, almost a year to U turn on that. The second big error was surely the appointment of Peter Mandelon, Lord Mandelon as U. S. ammbassador, certainly when the extent of his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein became clear. and that was announced in December. So you know still in the early months of the Starmmer preremiership. and that's before we talk about other bits of policy that the government you turned on. inheritance tax for farmers all the welfare cuts and inquiry into grooming gangs and the sort of the instincts of Kir Stahmer certainly seemed slightly sluggish. That's certainly what we heard from his critics. I certainly agree that we are in a very difficult political environment, an unforgiving political environment and people don't seem to have a huge amount of patience, but Kia Starmer did make some errors, he made them quickly. He didn't correct them quickly and that surely is has' sort of central in contributing to the fall in his personal popularity and his MPs just running out of of hope in his skills. So on that, Joe And and we'll come on to the man who might take over in a minute. Oviously, we'll talk about Andy Burnham, but on that I've heard some people today saying, Look, what is needed now in the UK is what we used to call leadership. and that is different from popularity And that what is arguably I'm not making this case. I'm just saying this is the case. Some people are advancing is that The government, for example announced that it was going to bring in welfare reforms to try to cut that amount of money paying out in benefits to try to have a bit more money for public services or to reduce the country's borrowing or both. And then it retreated from that under opposition. You've mentioned quite a few other things there where the government announced there was a campaign of individual groups here and there didn't like this, that or the next thing, and then they retreated. And the argument goes that it's going to take a partular particular character with particular skills, a statesperson with great leadership to say to the country, the problems in the country is going to require some very difficult things in a world where you, newscasters, you voters have already experienced a lot of difficult things, and that if things are going to move forward under whoever's in power in Downing Street, it's going to take something that is someone who's able to ride out criticism and unpopularity to make things different. Does that make sense? Is that an argument that you hear in Westminster? Is that something you recognize? I mean I think so in the sense that decisions do clearly need to be made. I suppose Kiistarma took some tough decisions, including on winter fuel payments to save some cash and then couldn't manage his own parliamentary party. I suppose it's not just about the states personers who does sort of helm all of this, but also that there are people in Parliament who are able to back and go along with those decisions, I suppose we shouldn't let Labour MPs get a sort of free ride here. They are ultimately responsible for a lot of Kia Stama's problems. and I think whoever takes over from him we'll certainly hope they can unite the party and take them through some difficult times, which may lead to backlashes, may lead to protests, may lead to awkward constituency meetings, but ultimately in the long term could be positive for the country I'm going to ask you one more Joe because this is the section where I'm trying to be a sort of doctor to Chris's voice and just leave him for a minute. Don't say anything, Chris, donon't speak. I hope you're drinking something that helps you. but I'll ask you one more Joe, and then let's get on to Andy Burnham. And this is a question from newscaster Andrew. Andrew, thank you very much, indeed for your question, which is a very good one. A simple question here tonight Who is running the country? Is there an interident PM or is Starmer staying on until a new PM is sworn in? It's a good question, Joe. tellell us a bit about the process, how these things work He remains the prrime mininister, but he doesn't really have the full power of that office in the sense that I don't think if you wanted to do anything big or bold or expensive he would be allowed to do it. Certainly coming the next few weeks is that big NATO summit in Turkey. That summit was the deadline by which we'd expected the defense investment plan to be unveiled. the plan, the funding of which and controversy over it resulted in the Defense Secretary's resignation Now I don't know what Chris thinks, maybe I shouldn't ask him because of his voice. But does Kir Starmer really have the power now in this sort of odd, slightly sort of interregnum period to make any big decisions like cut some departments to fund the defefense investment plan? I mean, he's in an odd situation. Is the short answer And there Yes He' office he's an office James, but not necessarily in power. In terms of what happens next He has set out some dates and the Labour NEC Officers Group met this afternoon to discuss those dates. two key dates. One is the ninth of July, so two and a half weeks time. That's where nominations open for potential leadership candidates. a week later on the sixteenth, they close just as the summer recess for Parliament begins. what happens between now and then is there the consolidation of one candidate potentially, getting a lot of support and blocking others or is the pitch offered by Andy Burnham, which some of his critics claim is unclear unscrutinised, will that encourage a challenger? Of course, we've heard a lot about the eighty one MPs you need to stand to be the next leader of the Labour Party, you also need Either five percent of the constituency Labour parties or at least three affiliates, including two unions to stand. And therefore to conclude, James, we could at the soonest have a new Prime Minister the day after nomination to close, which would be the seventeenth of july, if there isn't a contest. If there is one, we're looking at the end of summer and Kir Stama will stay in post until then but not be able to make any decisions that cost too much of our pay cash Chris having rested your voice on y Barnam No, we are we assuming? It's going to be Andy Burnham. I mean, certainly if you've been watching any coverage today we'll be assuming it's be Andy Burnham because what it I mean, just like let's take a moment to talk about how extraordinary the choreography was today and how extremely unusual this is a guy who wasn't It wasn't even in Parliament, I think at the mor day the day began and then there was a helicopter following his train all the way from to London from Greater Manchester or the train was following his taxi then, I think from London Eouston to Westminster. and just this incredible focus on this one person who is just like I mean, it's mad. It's really od, doesnn't it? It's Yeah this a man who wasn't an MP until the early hours of Friday morning He wasn't back in Parliament until two hundred thirty this afternoon and within an hour or so was posing for a picture With a couple of hundred live rMpees. An image that just oozed the transfer of power from Kstama. T Andy Burnham. Now It's not impossible. somebody else decides to have a crack at running for the Labour leadership. We should just say that But all the indicators. point in the direction Andy Berham being Prime Minister Probably within a couple of weeks. And that is extraordinary. abbsolutely extraordinary. And in that period between now and then boy, there's a lot of scrutin For us, journalistities do of him, as you'd expect. but also for labour MPs and indeed, opposition MPs to do of him You know, what does he stand for? particularly say on the international agenda because Clearly, that wasn't part of the job remit as the mayayor of Greater Manchester as well as all sorts of other domestic ideas. We've got a sense of where he stands on some things But my goodness, there's a lot of things where we don't. And one odd thing as well for me is that he doesn't seem in a huge rush. This is a job Andy Burnham has coveted for decades. Now, it seems to be potentially being offered to him on a plate. and yet him and his team don't seem to be in a rush to get to number ten because they want time to prepare Now don't forget Kir Stahmer was criticised for not having a plan for government But kiss armor had four years in opposition su great to put together the plan. Andy Burnham has a matter of weeks and that that is clearly going to be a real challenge. Chris also mentioned that photo in Westminster Hall and the heart of the palace in Westminster that Andy Burnham took with loads of labor and image of the day It was so revealing and what was most revealing was the fact Rachel Rees, the Chancellor was there. On the front raow, I think. Yeah, she was just behind him in a pink dress. Rachel Reeese was not though, as far as I could see outside her own house in Downing Street on her own street watching her colleague Kir Starmer make his resignation statement. Of course many people blame Rachel Reed for a lot of the errors of this premiership which has ended in that resignation speech and yet she decided to hot fooot it to Westminster Hall seemingly perhaps because And she doesn't just want to support Andy Berdman believes in him, but maybe as I think many ministers and MPs are thinking, wants to serve in his government. Chris mentioned the speed of the change, James The fact that we've had not just sort of part one of a change, which is you know who's leaving, but part two, who is potentially coming in a matter of hours is just completely astonishing and it leaves people Not really thinking about Kir Starmart and his legacy, but you know, who and what's next? Totally because today could have turned out like this, you could have had K Stara doing his thing in the street. And that was it. You know, no real, wasn't it? No real word from Andy Burnham who just comes down and gets sworn in and okay, there's a helicopter and all that, but doesn't really say much and why streeting keeps his head down as well And instead The whole Sabang, it feels almost the whole Shebang in one day. And the West treating that he tweeted less than two hours after the Stmer speech, that seemed to be quite a consequential moment because Yeah, we don't know exactly what's going to happen, but that seemed to be the moment where the leadership contest could have been coming to an end even before it started. Because he's backing Andy Burnham, and I suppose then the question is what's he getting? I mean some is he going to be Chancellor, for example? I asked him exactly that out of that foreign Secretary He insisted he had not been offered any job. You'll get a big job. It's entirely possible he hasn't been offered a job. absolutely nailed on yet. But he'll get a big job because he's a big part of the Labour Party. He' seen as arguably their best communicator So he will have a senior job in cabinets Prob within a few weeks. And if newscasters are listening to this thinking, what does this mean for me as well they might be, as well we all might be J just tell us, you know, there was as I understand it, I'm not sure and we've discussed this before that the terms left and right are as helpful as they used to be in politics. but just for the sake of argument, Andy Burnnham was broadly thought of as being maybe the candidate of a little bit over to the left and West Streeting more over to the to the righter side of the Labor Party. A, am I right? Is that fair? B, what happened to all these other contenders likege Angela Rayner on the left and see M C. I don't know what C is. what's going to happen? Well Let's try it with A and B. I think Any Burdon we would see in his sort of most recent incarnation on the soft left of of labor. so probably a little bit to the left of Ker Stalmer and to the right of Jeremy Corbyn, but he has obviously served under Tony Blair, under Gordon Brown, under Mr. Corbn and his critics a something he really hates is this claim that he's a bit of a political chameleon and he changes his opinion with the wind. So I think soft left is what we'd and focus his sort of political beliefs around In terms of Angel A Ryna From everything we're hearing from those close to, she will not be standing in a leadership contest. She certainly seems to be very active in the Maker field by election. She of course is a Greater Manchester MP too. I suppose she may be happy with somebody like Andy Berham, someone with his sort of politics and also somebody from the Northwest getting the job as leader of their party, but also maybe she realised that She'd have a better chance of getting a job with him and a contest with her and it wouldn't necessarily turn out how she wanted. It's not quite clear. Have you worked out what C is yet, James No, but I've thought of another sea or rather another sea has been thought of for me and fed to my ear. That is and Now this is the, you know, just to wrap it all up really What should we be looking out for next in the next say, twenty four, forty eight hours or so? Andy Burnham appearing on a public stage and telling us what it's all about. That's what we await, I think, later this week. I don't know at what point will happen But He'll need to set out a stall Does it amount to a launch? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't because who knows if there's a contest, but he's got to do it He's got to come out Set out what he stands for abbsolutely demonstrate, although we' got a fair chunk of it today, but absolutely demonstrate the depth of his support And then I think probably subject himself to a lot of questions over the next couple of weeks Wh she hasn't really hasn't done. Since the newewsnight interview you did with Victoria Derbyshire, which people close to him didn't feel had gone well. I mean, he seems to have stepp back with media interviews. Yeah certainly Labor MPs who saw that Ns night interview and been more positive at him but started to have questions. He doesn't want to Pete of that, but that means we're in a situation where it seems very possible he could be the Prime Minister within weeks. And yet there is just this enormous gulf where we don't really know necessarily what he would do in office, what he really believes and what a Burnham government might mean in terms of all of our lives in terms of taxes in terms of A welfare reform in terms of funding The arrmed forces, there' just so many question marks in a way that is Is it unprecedented foris I think it probably is when we're thinking of a government and an administration that is perhaps just weeks away because even if we think of Wish she sooner For instance Who You know, became Prime Minister having lost leadership race granted during that contest Not a vast amounts of attention was paid to him because it was expected that he would lose And so when he arrived in Downing Street, there were a lot of questions. I remember asking him some fairly basic questions about where he stood on crime or whatever. because we didn't feel like we knew But he had been through a leadership contest. It's spent an entire summer four years ago goingo from hustings to hustings to hustings, plenty of them on camera, doing a lot of interviews, etcera, etca. and Andy Burnham is probably got a matter of weeks for that to happen, or maybe quite a lot of it ends up happening