Lessons for Future Political Leadership

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Try for free today at odoo. com OdWo. com Decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day What policy changes should investors be watching Listen to Washington Wise, an original podcast for investors from Charles Schwab to hear the stories making news in Washington right now Host Mike Townsend, Char Schwab's Maging director for Legislative and Regulatory Affairs, takes a non partisan look at the stories that matter most to investors including policy initiatives for retirement savings, taxes and trade, inflation concerns, the Federal Reserve, and how regulatory developments can affect companies, sectors, and even the entire market and his guests offer their perspective on how policy changes could affect what you do with your portfolio Download the latest episode and follow at schwab. com slash Washington Yise or wherever you listen two fifteen year old boys who were spared prison after raping two girls in Hampshire have now been sentenced to four years in youth detention after the Court of Appeal in London ruled that their original sentence was unduly lenient. This is a case which is just prompted An enormous amount of reaction and response. And in fact, we're going to talk about exactly that on today's episode of Newscast Newscast from the BBC It's James in the studio. and it's Alex in the studio. And just to warn you, as we discuss this ruling today by the Court of Aeal, we are going to talk about some upsetting details. So So if you'd like to avoid listening to that completely understandably, then you can skip ahead to the second half of this episode when we've spoken to Nick Robinson, who is the presenter of pololitical Thinking podcast and he has been talking to Morgan McSweeney, who is Kir Starmer's former Chief of staff But before we do that, newscasters, let's just have a reminder about this case that we're talking about, Alex, because we're going to speak to Daniel Stanford in a minute who's been covering the case, But before that The Court of Appeal in London boys have been sent to youth detention now, but they'd originally been given community youth rehabilitation orders for these rapes of two teenage girls in Hampshire in twenty twenty four and twenty twenty five And the case caused just such a huge reaction in the country and also in political circles. Yeah, I mean so this was back in May just to give you a bit of timeline. when The non custodial sentences were handed down to the teenage boys in this case and And there was just an enormous reaction. And The sentences happened and then a couple of days later, I think there was just this sense as people really got to grips of what had happened in this case of the political reaction and traction growing. And then Laura, Laorkensburg, our newscast colleague of course, she on her Sunday morning programme Sunday Laorkensburg, she actually spoke to one of the girls who had been raped and her family. And it's just worth saying at this point that because of the ages of the people involved, they remain anonymous. The girl very bravely talked about what that experience had done. to her It took me six months to say something And essentially, the reason I said it was because I was losing it are spiraling I needed help, but I didn't know how to get it, so I spoke up. I wanted justice. I wanted to prove my point, but it feels like nothing was proven And on the back of that, there was a sort of extraordinary interview with Darren Jones, who was Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister. And you could just see his emotion. know It was one of those cases that just clearly struck a chord with so many people. And on the back of that, the atttorney generenal referred what had been non custodial sentences for the teenage boys and for review then the Court of Appeal has been looking at this and that is where we are today And I spoke to Daniel Sanford, UK correspondent who was at the Court of Appeal and came into the newscast studio to tell me what had happened there today actually really, really interesting starch proceedings after lunch because there are obviously three teenage boys involved here whose future was being decided and two of them were had their sentences increased They were sitting in a court in Southampton onn a video link And the first thing that the Lady Chief Justice did was she turned to address them. and gave a very, very simplifized version of her ruling in really, really simple language because one of the boys really has a very low IQ in the bottom percent And she explained to them that what they'd done was, in her words, very bad. and that they were going to chang their punishments and that they were going to put them into detention. It was really interesting to hear describing to these boys that have been considered by the wider public as monsters and rapists in this really, really almost childlike language, what was going to happen to them Th Once she'd spoken to them, she went into the main more formal legal judgment in front of all the lawyers and the media who would come to attend. in very simple terms She took the view along with the other appeal court judges sitting with her that what the original trial court judge had done was wrong and that in fact, this was one of those last resort cases as they're called in legal circles and that these boys be sentenced to detention and that it would be four years in detention though once you've consonsider they'll be released early and take into account the fact that they've already done the equivalent of two hundred and thirty one days on a curfew It'll be a few more months that they spend detention So I'd like to get into a bit more detail about what the Lady Chief Justice said about the court's reasoning. I'm sure Newscastles will be interested in that, But just to explain, Daniel, you're talking about three boys here. We were talking about two boys and they were I think fourteen at the time, they're fifteen now. justust explain the role if you would have the third boy in this case. So at the time there were two fourteen year old boys who were involved in the actual sexual activity. and there was a third thirteen year old boy who had filmed some of it and You effectively become part of the rape ence if you are filming it. So he was convicted as a secondary participant in the second rate His sentence wasn't changed. It was decided that what the trial judge had considered in his case was correct and that he will serve this eighteen month youth rehabilitation order The two boys who'd actively participated in the rapes were the ones who had their sentences increased. So this is Sukar, the Lady Chief Justice, is that right? That's correct. Baron carar. Baroness carar, Baroness car, indeed. And what did she have to say? about what the original sentencing judge had actually done because she's obviously reviewed it. as you say, she's looked into that in detail. What was her opinion or her legal opinion on what had happened in the first place So the guidelines for sentencing children are really clear. sending them into detention be a last resort. And those were the words the original judge used and he was heavily criticised for it, but that's written solidly into the guidelines. Even for rape cases. Yeah, even for rape cases and that the judges are told to avoid criminalizing children unnecessarily. And again, those words that he used or direct quotes from the guidelines. So the question for the appeal court judges is, was this an exceptional case, a case where the detention should be one of last resorts What the lady Chief Justice and the other appeal court judges decided was where the judge had gone wrong in considering the seriousness this case, how serious in fact it was. They said it was so serious that if they'd been adult offenders, they'd have been given sentences of ten years or more And the seriousness was because of the prolonged nature of the offending because these rapes took up place over a period of time The fact there were multiple rapes involved the fact that Two girls were raped on separate occasions, two months apart. So this wasn't some kind of one off thing that had just gone horribly wrong and critically that they felt that the judge just hadn't taken properly into account the effect on the two girls that had been raped. He had taken that into account, but they felt that it had been underplayed in his original sentencing. so that cumulative effect of actual really serious aggravating factors about how the rapes took place, including the filming of the pes and the fact that the girls the effect it had on the girls who were raped just had been underplayed meant that in her words sentence of detention was inevitable. Right. And as Alex was saying a minute ago, we're not giving the names of these boys because their identity is protected by law, because of their age, and we're obviously not giving the names of the victims because their identity is naturally and always protected by law, but you have spoken to the mother of one of the victims, Daniel, is that right Anonymously obviously? Yes, that's right. So The first girl was raped in the dark by a river under an underpass In november twenty twenty four, the second girl was raped in a againgain After dark, both of these took place in Fording Bridge And the mother that I spoke to is the mother of the first girl. who was raped and I asked her whether she felt that the newew sentence was enough. And she said, well No mother was going to say they were happy with it. No mother say would say that it was enough But she said that she felt she was in a much, much better position than she was this morning boys that had raped her Daughter had no custodial sentence at all. so she felt it was a considerable step forward and I got the impression that they won't be sort of pushing further on this. So she did say that she felt that because there were two offences, she didn't really under two sets of rapes, she didn't really understand why the sentences weren't taking place consecutively, one after the other, the sentencing for the November rapes weren't then being followed by the sentencing for the January because they all got combined into one sentence. So she still felt quite uncomfortable about the fact she felt it should have been if it was going to be four years, it should have been four years then followed by another four years. Yeah. It's an interesting point, isn't it? I mean, you just you can't begin to put yourself in the shoes of people who've been through this. You you have to be with people and you do this a lot in your job Daniel, you talk to people who've suffered unimaginably or their relatives or in this case their children have suffered unimaginably How how does that go? How, you know Just tell me a bit more if you can about the process of doing that interview and how it went. Yeah, I mean everyone responds in different ways and I think you can't expect somebody who's the victim of a crime or their family to necessarily react in one way. But this particular family you can see they're going to take the path of wanting to help people and who are going to be following behind them in the future. They wanted to make sure first of all that these boys get an appropriate punishment and they feel like they've done as much as they can on that. But they're also thinking of setting up a foundation, they're fundraising to try and set up a foundation which will support women and girls who follow down the line because what they felt is that desespite all the assistance of the kind of the police and the criminal justice system and then the kind of assistance again of the criminal justice system when it came to trying to get the sentences amended, that they hadn't really had the support they needed. So they're very much going to get involved in that I should say that Their daughters clearly very, very, very profoundly You know, she's really, really struggled. She has just done her GCSEs. so Amazingly life goes on and she's, you know, waiting for her GCSE results like other sixteen year olds in the country, but I think er mother said to me that Her daughter willill be suffering from a life sentence effectively, and that's why she felt it was so important that the boys should get more punishment than they were originally given. Daniel, thanks very much It's great to be here. Now if you've been affected by any of the issues raised in this story, you can visit the BBC's actctionline website for advice and that is bbc. co. uk slash actctionline Now Morgan McSweeney, many newscastters will be familiar with at least the spectre. Yeah, if not the physical form of Morgan McSweeney. He was Chief of staff to the Pime Minister, wasn't he? Alex and he resigned in February largely, I think, because of his role or his perceived role in the appointment of Peter Mandelson to the job in Washington, the UK's ammbassador to the U.S. So He has done a big interview. Yeah, I mean, it's just worth saying he's been such a key figure to Kistaharmer's time in government up to his resignation. But also before that, he was right alongside Kirstahmer in reshaping the Labour Party in trying to get Labour re elected and then obviously successfully doing that. So he's been a really key figure in Westminster for some time, but he isn't someone you hear from very often.ever Nick Robinson for his political thinking podcast has managed to sit him down and have a good chat and we can talk to Nick about it right now Hello Nick. Hi So I'm fascinated by this because like many people in Westminster, Morggan McSweeney became a name that we were all really, really familiar with. But really until he gave that appearance at the seelect commommittee a few months ago, Very few people had even heard his voice and then suddenly, Nick, you get him sat down in front of a camera, in front of a microphone for his first ever interview. I mean, just what was it like having him in the room in that position? Well, quite extraordinary actually, Alex, because sometimes in these political thinking interviews, I'm interviewing people I've known for a long time. We've had conversations in private. I'm not one of those people who had Morgan McSweeney in my phone book. He didn't have my number either. We got to know each other when talking about whether to do this interview or not. And as you say, there was what he describes as a kind of mythos, Greek word that he uses around him. Now, a mythos is more than a myth. It means a whole series of myths around him, as he sees it, of course. because he's seen as a kind of bgey figure to many. On the one hand, credited by his friends for having turned the Labour Party around as a campaigning organisation Having lost the election in twenty nineteen under Jeremy Corbyn and that extraordinary landslide victory in twenty twenty four By his enemies though, he is accused of picking a man and they do claim that he hand picked Kir Stahmer for the job of Labour leader who didn't believe very much or at least wasn't able to convince people that he believed it very much, of neutering the little he did believe because he was just trying to persuade the voters vote for us. and we won't scare you by telling you what we might actually do and then in government running what was often described as a boys's club people who briefed against enemies within the Labour Party. So to suddenly meet And then here from guy who it's a bit like Wizard of Oars, isn't it? when they pull back the curtain Softly spoken Sightly shy. restestrained in what he said, unwilling to attack. You know, certainly not as old. s K Aarmer but not even the woman he clashed with repeatedly, a woman called Sue Grey, who was Kirst Aarmmer's first chief of staff. It just was fascinating to watch and listen and see what happened next. And before Nick we get into the content, of what he actually said, I suppose we should examine the idea of motive here. this is guy who's barely ever wanted to speak It doesn't sound like he's very comfortable in that environment necessarily I mean, apart from your remarkable skills of persuasion, why is he doing it? Do you think? Why did Alex laugh then? No comment here. I thought they were remarkable. look, I mean, obviously I ask myself that question. The truth is He wants to puncture what he sees is this. And I got to use the Greek word again mythos When he was before the select commommittee giving evidence about the selection of Peter Mandelsen as the UK ammbassador to Washington, DC. He used this word again and again. He feels he's been caricatured. He feels that there are a whole series of things that are said about him, that he's blamed for that simply aren't fair Andny wants to change that. Now why does he want to change that now is the next question? I think he wants to hold open the possibility of returning to do some work for the Labour Party. When I said, wouldould you like to work at the next election? He said, I don't want to work on any election. He's addicted to that process. And I think he probably chose this week rather than waiting a while because he wanted to get his own critique of the failures off his regime and Kyistama's regime. in before Andy Burnham did to in another words, say, look I'm going to admit what we got wrong. I'm going to be open about what we got wrong. He's certainly not planning or frankly likely to have any sort of comeback in the short term. He's doing quite a lot of work in Ukraine at the moment, advising government there. and some interesting things that he's learned about how government works sometimes rather better in a war torn region than it does here in the UK I think he wants to keep the door open the possibility of making a return one day. And on the critique on his own sort of assessment of what went wrong and obviously it's pretty safe to say that something went wrong given that Kirstar is now imminently on his way out of Downing Street and Morghgan Mcsweeny had to resign. but He really put it down to one central theme, which was about not being prepared enough to govern, which has been a familiar criticism, but it was quite striking to hear Morgan McSweeney acknowledge it. In fact, we can hear him in his own words as to what he said about that It was very hard to get people to focus on what we needed to do to win to begin with. And then once we started getting into twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three It was about building the machine But early in twenty twenty four, when we were preparing for the general election, when we were sitting down, I' sitting down with Pat MatFaden in windowless rooms hour after hour, planning for day one I did start to realize that we hadn't done enough prepare for government and then we got exposed for that, I think early I mean, Nick, I thought that really was quite the admission because as I say, people have sort of levelled that criticism against Kirstarmer's administration repeatedly. But Morghgan McSweeneie is just saying it in the clearest possible terms. They've been so focused on trying to transform the party, which Kirst Amer is already pointing to as part of his sort of legacy, that they just didn't give enough attention to the act of governing. And I mean, they've paid something of a price for that. Huge price, isn't it? Because remember that Kiirst Armmer in many ways defined himself as being the opposite of Boris Johnson. I'm not the flashy guy. I'm not the guy who's good at the sound bittes or the performance I mised stability. I missed a grown up, I mised I've run an organization He ran of course the Krowne Prosecution Serice where who is Director of Public Prosecutions and I'll get this right So to have his key guys say, well, actually we didn't really think it through And we didn't know what the world was going to be like and he admits that they didn't know really what the world was going to be like economically or the challenges in terms of security or dealing with a post Brexit world and with Donald Trump is, as you say, extraordinary to hear him concede. And he goes further, Alex in the interview, which is again, the common criticism made certainly in Labour Party ranks, but often by just ordinary voters as well Why theyre so damn gloomy having won that election? Do you remember that first news conference in which he's telling us how painful it's going to be? He admits they shouldn't have been gloomy. Why on earth was the first act that anybody remembers about this government was the abolition of the winter fuel allowance for pensioners. He admits that that was a mistake. I say to him Did anybody actually raise an objection to it in number ten when it was proposed F of all by the treasury. No, he said. And what that tells you really Is this whole system? failed I mean, I know because I did a documentary years back about the twenty ten David Cameron Coalition government The first proposal on the desk of Prime Minister David Cameron was to abolish the winter fuel allowance. The treasury had always hated it, It gave money to people who are relatively well off and people are very well off Cameron picks up the piece of paper, hands it to the then Cabinet secretary Gus O'Donnell Gus There's a reason, I'm a politician and you're a civil servant. You must be bloody kidding. Bring something else back. I'm not doing it. Why didn't that happen Ked Armour and under Morgan McSweeney. And Nick, what was your feeling about his diagnosis in a wider sense of the problems of the country? Because he talked about the mood of the country, about voters being frustrated, people wanting change to come more quickly and in his tailing One of Labor's problems was that Aarent's inability to deliver change quickly enough. But then he's also talking about how he's discovered. He says he's discovered I mean you can have a debate about whether he discovered these problems really when they came in the door or whether they should have known about them already. But there are deep seated underlying problems in the country. Remember Kir Starmer kept talking about a decade of renewal of change. So I suppose the question is Was there some sort of if if a lack of preparedness is the problem Was there something else they could have done to deliver change more quickly? Because if so, he didn't give any sense of it in the interview, did he as to what they could have done instead? No, in truth, he doesn't do that. and that's one reason Andy Burnham is about to become our next Prime Minister because he has given his own supporters, at least He met Labour MPs, even those who didn't support him some sense of hope and optimism and belief is possible. Now There is a common theme between what Moran McSweeney talks to me about in this political thinking interview and what Burnham is talking about, which is the weakness of the centre of government. McSweeny says, quotes, it was actually quite weak and that left us exposed I think And this is a hunch, James rather than something I can give you evidence for. But I think they made the mistake that politicians often do which is they believe their own rhetoric about their opponents They get into a mindset that says these tories, if they're Labour supporters, and it works the other way aroundound, of course, when it's the Conservatives or in Scotland where you know these people in the SN, etcera, c. They're hopess, they're evil, they're bad, they're whatever. If we get in, it'll all be fine. E the reality is and the really clever politicians understand this, Often you look at your opponents and, yeah they're not people like me, they're not people who share my views or values, but they're basically decent people who want to do a good job. and if they've not managed to turn this thing aroundound, Maybe there's an underlying reason for that that I need to get my brain round And I think Starmer believed that the Tories were uniquely bad he'd looked at this that some people regard as comic and he regarded as an outrage, the Boris Johnson era, then Liz Truss, sooner I think he had more respect for. But he just thought these people are a shower And that was a lost opportunity to say, Why couldn't these guys make this work? What can we learn from them And I think what was interesting was that when you put to him specifically some of the early things that happen that Morgan McSweeney acknowledged did damage public opinion of the Labour Party. So things like the Winter Fuel decision, but also things like the freebies row, you know, all the kind of suits and the glasses and the gifts. that Kistarmer was receiving. Morgan McSweeny acknowledged the damage they did but also defended to some extent their approach. So he was making the argument about that. Well, look, yeah, maybe we should have paid for it through campaign funds. but actually, if you're out on a campaign trail, you're going to need a new suit or maybe a few ple of glasses in case you lose one. know I just sort of wonder if there was like a true acknowledgement just where the public mood was at that point when it came to that kind of thing, given that Kistarmer had spent so much time trying to differentiateate himself from what had come I didn't think and you've obviously seen or read this key bit, Alex, that he really did recognise the scale there was that a man who'd said, lookook, I'm going to uphold public standards, a man who said I'm about service to the public was accused when he took free suits and he took free glasses of being interested in self service. Now look You know, I'm going to make myself unpopular with some people listening a newscast and saying I actually buy that. I suspect you just thought Look, I'm running around. often got to wear two suits a day. I've got to change glasses you know I mean this is kind of a tool of the job. Um But their failure to get it and to get it at speed and say, okay, there's another way of looking at this, which is this is unique privilege And I'm taking money that wouldn't be available and money in large quantities, if you're paying hundreds of pounds maybe more than a thousand pounds for a suit would offend and outrage people. And the theme that came up again and again was how slow they were to recognise and to respond to problems. This was a sort of plodding Downing Street And K Stalmer obviously gets the blame for being a bit slow on his feet, but in the end, Morgan McSweeney has to take some blame. I didn't think he probably took as much blame as some of his critics would wanturing this interview. And another area in which I don't think I think it's fair to say he didn't really accept the critique you were putting to him was on the idea, the allegations which had been made not from the outside, but by senior labor figures, senior labour women that there was a boys' club inside number ten and that he was in large part running the boys club and that that might have influenced the disastrous decision made to hire Lord Mandelson, Peter Mandelson as the UK's ammbassador to the U S. So let's have a listen to that little bit. So the women I worked with U Well, so both the this was an attack that was made on us both in opposition and government And in opposition, the late Party had Half of our directors were women the senior the senior spots in number ten aboutb in my time as a chief of staff, about half a woman hand And it's not just numbers, it's real people who made differences both in number ten and the lay partarty. and actually just you a second When you say an attack, I mean this doesn't come for your opponents or your critics or the newspapers or some TV commentator But it was coming from senior women in the labour. it was a critique bought Low Party headquarters and about Low Party and about Sads in number ten. And I have no doubt in my mind that the women in senior jobs in Lay partarty face challenges and misogyny. to do their jobs all at the time But at the same time This sense that they weren't that they weren't there, that they weren't counted actually does them massive disservice I sort of wonder if it just comes back to this idea which it was The message of this whole interview and it was such an interesting watch was I felt like a little bit like he was He perhaps wasn't he was almost talking a bit like a politician. You know, he was almost like he was almost feel like he was in government. L there was a lot of defense of Kiristarmer. There was a lot of defense of the Downing Street operation. He did acknowledge there were mistakes, a lack of optimism at the start, as well as some of those early decisions But you know, it was like Maybe not to the scale. He didn't acknowledge it to the scale that's led him to the point that they find themselves now, which is Morgancwinneie out of Downing Street and Kirstarmer on his way out of Politics is catching, behaving like a politician is catching. Well maybe. Well, it's certainly a mindset, isn't it? And I think look, let's be fair to the guy's never literally never done an interview I thinkically real rarely. he has never done. I should just say T be fair, he's also done an interview for the Financial Times as well at the same time well not literally at the same time I think it was on the same day. No, I think Alex is exactly right about that. And I tell you why I think it was. And again, I'm guessing I'm going to be open about this. I don't know the man well. Although I've got to know him in the last couple of weeks as we landed this interview I think he's someone who plans what to say. And there were things he came to say. We weren't prepared enough. We made a mistake, we wentn't to fuel. And there were other things I put to him where it was clear not quite worked out what to say yet. Well, that booyys' cllub was oneon, wasn't it? I think so. think I think there's a genuine upset that he thinks, you know, without doing the joke about some of my best friends are, but he thinks some of my closest colleagues are women. so what are you talking about And He wasn't willing to acknowledge that these people who were saying it, as I suggested in my question, were anybody? I mean it was Louise Hake Now Louise had left the cabinet You can argue because she made a mistake as Transport seecretary in terms of what she'd done in her past. She is now the key right hand woman to Andy Burnham. So the way he behaved to her has had direct consequence. It's the deputy leader of the Labour Party, Lucy Powell, who says it. So they believe there was a boy club. They believe they were being excluded. They believe they were being derided by briefings not necessarily always by him, but by people who work for him. And as you say, Alex, I don't think he's yet recognized all that But let's be fair to him Magen, he actually does say in the interview, I've not processed all this yet. I am still thinking about it. And for someone who has kind of worked probably non stop obsessively For what about six years? And And you do have to remember and I You knowt hold no flame for him. He's not a mate of mind. But you do have to remember most people thought it was impossible to do what he en Kased Ama did. To turn that twenty nineteen defeat around to getting into government with a hugeity. majority was regarded as impossible. So maybe there is just a little bit of hold on guys, look what I did. cut me some slack. And when I say he sort of spoke like a politician, I think what I mean by that is that he was kind of careful and cautious, but it's also worth remembering that he's talking about Kirst Stara, who is still the prrime Minister. He's not doing this interview months or years after Kirst Starma's left office, a guy that he was very, very close to and worked so closely alongside K Stahmer is still officially in office right now. There was one bit when he came in with an anecdote when he was talking about what must have been quite extraordinary as Morgan McSweeney, Chief of Staff sat in the room with those early conversations, particularly between Kiar Stahmer and Donald Trump And he talked about one of those first phone calls in which but I'll tell you what, let's just hear it He's much funnier than I expected him to be So the first call that Ker had with the presidident It got into a conversation about windmills. And he started saying, Look, Britain's a beautiful country, but you have too many windmills ine He's making his point. he's made that publicly enough enough times And you start to say the windmills are killing your birds Birds are falling by the windmills Foxes are eating those birds And at this point the officials that were in the room were barely able to contain themselves because it was extremely funny. But this was the first call between the Prime Minister and the president and everyone wanted to be professional but were struggling to hold it together. And he went on to say that as the foxes ate so many birds and became lazy They became fuck. And as they became so fat, people no longer knew what kind of a creature they were because they were too fat. were these fat foxes walking around Scotland, eating dead birds. And this was the first call between the president and the prime Minister. and I thought, this is just going to be so So very, very different. D Kiss over allow himself to laugh. Now he just held it together. I don't know how He just just absolutely contained himself. No one else in the room did it Yeah He's talked to me about the I've talked to President Trump about this about the windmills wind mills, as he calls them, which are obviously not windills. The wind turbines apart from nothing else. but he hasn't talk to me about the foxes. No, but he has complained to me about the wind turbines off the coast of his of Aberdeenhire, where one of his golf courses is Danyick, what did you make of that bit? Why it was fascinating and what are the things we tri to do on these long conversational interviews on political thinking, N news interrogations, I always say to people who are listening or watching, long conversations is pull the curtain back a bit. What's it actually like for these people doing these sorts of jobs And there is Kir Starmer, a brand new Prime Mister thinking, how do I deal with this guy Donald Trump and he knows that his party and large parts of the public want to kind of Love actually moment, a Hugh Grant moment, if you remember the film in which Hugh Grant plays the Pime Minister who actually stands up at a news conference for Britain and attacks the United States And of course anybody in that job would say, donon't be ridiculous. I've got to get on with the guy. You know there are things I need. I don't need to become his enemy. I need to try to smooth feathers. How'd you deal with it? What you're not prepared for is a man who can just say anything. I mean, how'd you prepare for that? And it turns out that on this call that it wasn't just Morgan McSweeneedie who was in the room but listening, they'd have another handset along with, I don't know the names of the other people, but I would imagine it would be Jonathan Powell, who was national seecurity advisor and one of perhaps the Cabinet secretary or foreign affairs adviser. dozens of people around the building listening in because that's what they do in leadeers calls because each different specialty in terms of policy wants to say, what's the president saying about this? How do we react to that? What do we prepare for this? And that' just like whoa You're on your own now. What you you laugh? Do you say what are you talking about? you say actually the Fat foox is are perfly normal size. Big fan of Fat Foxes over here Prime Minister. Mr. President. In my old job, you know when I was political editor, I traveveled with what three prime ministers very regular, particularly with Tony Blairry who travel the world a lot. and there were great moments in news conferences I used to always love them in which Alista Campbell,'s you know, famously as director of communications S and watch Tony Blair, when a leader said something a bit quirky like that in a news conference, and I'd catch his eye And what he was basically saying is You're on your own now, mate. This is what you wanted to do. comeome on over to you. And so I mean the final thought of your conversation with Mwiny almost started back at the beginning, Nick, when he was his kind of overall theme was that we didn't prepare enough. I guess then that poses a question for Andy Burnham Wh I have no doubt is going to be listening to this episode of pololitical thinking. But you know he's got an even shorter time to prepare for government. Now, of course, some might say he's had his eye on the top job for some time, Mr. Burnham. But if you compare to Kist Stama who had those official years as leader of the opposition, Andy Burnham hass come straight from Mayor of Greater Manchester to win the Makerfield by election now a matter of weeks when he is widely expected to be walking into number ten. I wonder if there is anything might be taken from what Morgan McSweeny had to say around that central issue of preparedness. What do you think it might be Well, the difficulty is you say, Alex is, he can't Prepare constantly invent time that he hasn't got And you're right, a leader of the opposition. byy nature of having that job gets, for example, security briefings. Reularly we will be briefed about what the Russians are up to. the Chinese, the America, that's what people do. They get what are called access talks before an election in which they meet senior civil servants who say, well Look, leader of the opposition, if you're intending to do X or Y, we can tell you this and that. Now those talks have now begun with Burnham and the cabinet, etcetera and sort of Burnham's people, but they begun. matter of days before he moves into Downing Street. So he can't suddenly F time that he hasn't got I think it's true as you suggest he's had his eye on this for a very long time, that maybe since the moment he became mayor of Greater Manchter, he's been thinking about it, which is about nine years, if my memory serves me correctly. I think it is also true that in government he had a couple of jobs that gave him some insight into this, being Chief Secretary to the Treasury, which he was means that you're responsible for negotiations with all the spending departments. So you have to get your head round just the budget but also policy in lots of areas. And of course being mayor of a big region, Ger Manchester, which have to keep reminding people not just mayor of the city of Manchester, but of a bigger region You have meetings, about transport, you have meetings, about health, you have meetings, about welfare and about skills. So you have some insight But the truth is nothing prepares you For that moment, you walk in the door of number ten. Cabinet seecretary says, step this way. They then prepare you by saying this is the terrorist threat This is the external threat to the nation They look at those papers. I've talked prrim M minister and former Prime Miniss about that moment and it is It's a lump in the back of the throat moment. It's that moment says Good God I'm in charge. You can listen to the whole of Nick Robinson's conversation with Morghgan McSweeney on the Political Thinking podcast on BBC Sounds. Highly recommend you do. Yeah you should. It's good. Really very interesting. Really interesting. And Nick, you're also going to be at the Crossedwires Festival in Sheffield this weekend. That's our big podcast festival. Sheffield this Saturday, I'm interviewing Louise Hagig My guess would be and it is a guess, she hasn't told me, I can assure you that she will be in the beefed up number ten. They'll have a stronger number ten operation trying to make sure that it's the politicians there, rather the officials in the treasury who are really driving what happens. She'll be on the stage. I'll be doing an interview with her, which you can then hear later on BBT sounds. And Chris will be there with the newscast team as well, of course, so that is definitely worth listening out for. Nick. Thank you very much, indeed. Great to talk you. It' been a pleasure So James, we've had some more supporter reporters Yes. Yeah. And also some supporter reporters Fr the teams that sadly have been knocked out of the World Cup already because they still count. still we still can. We still want them. We still want if you have a link to or preferably live in, although we're getting to the stage where it's actually more funny if you have a really tenuous and silly link toase. But anyway, if you have a link to any of the countries in the World Cup or if you live there and you're a newscaster, get in touch now We have one Lydia has emailed in from Norway to say, Hello Newscast. I heard from a recent episode that you've slightly relaxed the rules for supportupporter reporterable exactly with regards to whether you actually have to be in the country. With that in mind, I would like to apply to be Suorter Rorter for both Senegal Mm. Do you know what happened to Senegal? I feel like I should judge him by that That was an unbelievably dramatic game. They were winning two nill with five minutes to go against Belgium. and then after a lot of drama, they lost Th two. Anyway, just to explain, because I didn't explain, Lydia's linked to Senegal. She was born there and she had a fantastic childhood. Okay. so Lydia says