Welfare Reform and Social Justice

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Post your task, set your budget, and choose the tasker who's right for you. Go to airtasker. com or download the app. Air Tasker, get anything done. So hello, Victora dan. Now you're in for the Laura Koesburg. I am, yes She's having a weekend off and we are going to look at Andy Burnham's plan for the economy or what we think his plan for the economy might be. And when I spoke to him in June, June, this is still June. When I spoke to him on june the fifth,' sorry. A a lot has happened. We talked about the economy, so that was not very long ago. And he did say he would stick to Secistarm and Rachel Reeves's rules, fiscal rules on managing the finances On the question of what they were, or if he could remind us what they were, he declined to answer that But this weekend anyway, he is preparing a speech on the economy, which he's going to give on Monday. And it's not much prep time I mean, we'll get into this with Visal our economics editor, but many prrime mininisters have come into office having spent months and years preparing their programme. So Monday is the first clue we get not only on his economic programme. We've got quite a lot of clue from your interview with him which went viral. We talk about that And also the key question of who will be Chancellor. So welcome to Saturday's newewscast Nscast Newscast from the BBC. Humanity's next great voyage begins. We are in the midst of a rupture. Nostalgia will not bring back the old order. six seven Yeah It's supposed to be me as a doctor. D he has also a special connotation.. Thinking about it like a pano helped. Do we play music now? or what do we say Hello, it's Paty in the studio. Hello,'s Victoria in the studio. And shortly we'll be joined by Fizel in the studio, but we're underway because basically Andy Burnham's in the one hundred metre starting block If he gets to be Prime Minister, he's got a lot to do And we're told that this weekend, He is writing his speech in Manchester on Monday told he writes all his own speeches And there's been a bit of newspaper briefing to the Times in particular today. which talks a lot about devolution. And we know that Andy Burnham is a fan of deevolution. O obviously because he's been mayor of Grace Mester for a number of years We are told that that is something he wants to do more of in terms of handing power away from White Hall to the regions around the country. shouldould he become Prime Minister? Yes. And the phrase should he become Prime Minister is doing so much work at I I mean we're both exhausted about saying it. What would he do to the economy? Because it's kind of those two questions matter to all of us who live here. They matter to our place in the stock market, our place in the bond market clue is going to be given by the people he surrounds himself with right now. So we've also seen him surround himself with some interesting people. We have. Can we come to those in a minute? because I can just tell you what the briefing to the Times was today There been one or two mutterings from MPs in the south of the country wondering if the South might lose out under a putative Andy Bern and P premership because obviously he's a northernner According to the Times, he's going to suggest in this speech on Monday that the South is paying the price for the economic failure in the North, which would seem to be quite a clever framing. i. e. the North does better, the South can pay less into the pot kind of thing He's also, according to the Times, going to reduce government budgets to increase local budgets and give regional authorities much more power to decide exactly what the money is spent on. So for example those in power locally decide How to spend money on welfare, so it's not done centrally from the DWP at White Hall Yes, and also there could be a decision to split the powers of the treasury, not just geographically, which you've just described. also by task it's said that there could be a growth department of the treasury. So you could have a geographical division, you could have a task division, and it would all be seen as you know weakening the centralized power of the treasury. but Andy Berham would argue be spreading the powers around the UK. Yes. And now if we think about your interview with him, it was done, I'm pleased to say, in a pub It was And it went viral Victoria, I'll have to be the one to remind everyone of this, because he asked he didn't exactly answer what the fiscal rules were. So shall we just have a little listen Can you remind us what the fiscal rules are I'm not going to go through a discussion like a you know a an exam on the fiscal rules. I know what the fiscal rules are. I've been I re what I've been I've been very clear about it We will set out a plan that is within those rules so that we Keep the discipline. notothing I've said at any point in this campaign. Well before this campaign has been about ignoring the bond markets or saying they don't, they don't matter He'd already made it clear via Fizal Islam who was still waiting to join us or his team had made it clear that he was going to be sticking to Kir Star and Rachel Reeves' fiscal rules which made people question how different their Could he be then if he did become Prime Minister I mean I' think it's that a difficult quest to answer anyyay it's up to whet he anwers them or, he didn't want to. that's absolutely fine. He did make it clear he'd stick to them and he did make it clear that he would also be sticking to Labour's manifesto. And here he is, Fisel. coming in. Love you You can take your seat. I'll give a little bit of a question slash statement whilst Fisel sits down. The interesting thing about the Pub asa location is that he has hinted that he could be in favor of dropping pub business rates if he becomes Prime Minister and that was therefore all part of the kind of headlight flashing that we've had off him ahead of this big speech on Monday. Yes. And it wasn't just pubs, it was high street shops as well. But yeah, when I went to this pub It was, you know, it was to make a statement and it was he had a ass of Guinness as he waled into the interview and in the top, someone to put a oh my God, I can't think what the word is, anyay, It wasn't a shamrock, it actually said the words vote Andy. Oh right' obviously. that's quite lot of neat work with a froth ofe Gness. I know, absolutely. Faza, you've come in here with your Guness, I'm pleased to say. other dark beers are available. By the way, I don't know I've got my ice skating kind of like bracelet from this morning as well, in case you were wondering. You've heard nothing that Victory and I have said. So let's I have I heard I heard the reflection on the interview that Victory did with B What was your reflection on Victoria's interview with him? Well, I thought he was You know, you clear didn't want to answer that question. and u I was trying to reflect Like whenever those sorts of questions are put, I kind of think what percentage of the lobby would know the answer to that question And a general general level I think, u you'd expect him to know that it was like it's a debt falls and the current budget is balanced. At the specific level, it's P snuffle falls and the current budget balances over three years But like in a in a, you know, it's an option open to him to say,isten, I'm not going to sit here and likee answer that question. I guess Yeah, it's an interesting one. I don't think many prime ministers My Sunak would have Okay, that's really interesting and that's maybe fair The only reason I asked it. No. he said to the new statesman in September We've got to get away from this thing of being in hoc to the bondmark. Yeah And of course, since then, he'd rode back from that, he'd clarified that he'd never meant we should ignore the bond markets So I thought it was a legitimate question because he'd obviously had to, you know, find out more. It's totally legitimate. and I think it shows The sort of myth of the rules in a way, isn't it? It's sort of the specifics of them matter to some degree, but they regularly get changed It's almost like the myth of them. It's like the fact that you have this set of constraints that will kind of whip you into shape because we can't trust politicians to like not want to spend money. and indeed the very setting of your interview, which is kind of like what is you communicating as you were just saying pubs that we can some way do something nice on VAT, well, where's that going to come from? If he's going to stick to the rules Eesssentially that will have to be funded or as may well be happening if it does go his way as it seems like it will do U some of the numbers are going, you know, the oil prices is falling, borrowing costs are down. The borrowing costs are down. You know, if you're Rachel Reeves or Kir Starmer looking at this right now at this particular moment where you get the double whammy benefit of both the oil price being lower And you also get Your borrowing costs going down And suddenly, things in autumn, you certainly you probably won't have to do some sort of significant bailout of the energy markets, which is what was the standard procedure. So yeah, he may well him and whoever his chancellor is You know There may be a set of cards here better than we would have thought Paddy and I were just discussing the briefing that the Times has had today regarding this speech on Monday and the possibility of further devolution, which we know he's a fan of Have you had any kind of similar briefing? You've got good contacts Team Burnham So this is long standing kind of what you would say was sort of Burnham's agenda which is that we have it's not just an unequal country, but we have a sort of economy that doesn't function properly in low productivity you can pin that on the low productivity of our second and third cities. That's the basic And then what's the actual reason for that? Is it planning? Is it like a lack of transport infrastructure? all that sort of stuff Falls. Now then his solution, Now others would argue, I think from the right that the solution is, well a far more free market that kind of Lower taxes, lower taxes that benefits entrepreneurs and all sort of stuff Now his diagnosis is that you need much more power closer to where those decisions are made And I think I think this some confus this is crazing quite a delicious confusion, I think from what I see in Westminster. So know, I've obviously been part of Westminster and I now live in London But like you know, as you are yourself, Victoria, you know, I've kind of strong roots in Manchester. Well he hang on. he credits you in his book, head North. being the one who knew he was going to run for Mant Der first And in the book it says, you rang him up. he said Are you gonna to run his man? He said, canan you hold it till after the ten ten? Well him Well of books. I would have done no favor. No to because actually I think you made a slight mistake. I couldn't have run that story before ten because of the rules on on broadcasting it was a day a local election. Yeah, the detail that's missing was that I couldn't never run that story before ten. But yes, I did. I did I picked that up And that was extremely interesting that he made that run. indeed, I'll give you another little detail here. I got I phoned up or texted George Osborne at the time. And I think this is missed. This whole journey starts with George Osborne creating his meralties in order to get the first slice of power. for the Greater Manchester area and Greater Manchester was the they called it, or I think I called it, Divvo Mank, right? The devolution essentially to Manchester And they wanted at that time the entire twenty two billion pounds worth of money that was spent in Manchester to be spent by somebody voted for in Manchester. George Osborne was cocker hoops. when Andy Burnham Parliament and went for the Manchester Meralty. because for him it was proof of concept you've got a big figure. Obviously, I tell you what my first instinct was was He's from Liverpool, isn't he? I was genuinely confused because he was identified with the Hillsborough campaign. I knew that he was an Eton supporter And and he was empy for Lee. and it is a bit of a mixed bag, but then I mean, maybe a little measure of his political skill There's someone so rooted in and we all know about the rivalry imagine Liverpool and not just about the football for him to have pulled that off at the same time just shows his sort of political dexterity, shall we say, U But yeah, no, listen, in terms of what were to expect tomorrow. so it's on Monday ye I think that We get some flesh on the bones in terms of in the structures that he thinks leant against a a more effective economy, growing Not equally, but like more across the whole of the country. So it's things like, I think u more power to cities Um Treasury potentially changed in some way with a growth mission to maybe divide it up, give it a growth function headed by one type of and bas in another part of the country It could be both or either. Yeah. Yeah. let's see where that goes. Okay Right I mean, we'll come on, I'm sure to the identity of a chancellor, but let's just say that that does happen. Well, that chancellor is somewhat less powerful if the treasury split in. Remember, he's got form with the treasury. He was the second he was the chief secretary to the treasury And in the book that you mentioned, one of the key moments that I think we need to understand here is when He is approving crossrail as the Chief Scretary to the Treasury. So this is Elizabeth line Yeah And he wanted to know if there was an equivalent project in the North of England that he could announce at the same time. because he was a little bit like this doesn't look right. We're spending so much money on the south where there's already growth and growth begets growth. so you get more transport. so the growth happens there, and it becomes a kind of self fulfilling prophecy. Wh's like, well, hang on We need to start that dynamic in the North of England and elsewhere in the country. And he wanted to know and he was told that the treasury rules, what's known as a green book would not pass any project in the North He has been campaigning to reform that. We might hear more of that. Richard Ree hasready started that Now it gets quite in the weeds, but it' quite intriguing in terms of the politics across or four nations, which is the Barnet formula which allocates money to Northern Ireland and Scotland, there is a widespread belief in the north of England, northeast and northwest, that that does the northeast and the northwest out of transport spending And he he hass advocated in his book. Head North co written with Steve Rotham to abolish the Barnet formula, which would have huge consequences in Scotland and Wales Yeah. And the devil's in the detail in these sorts of policies because it sounds all well and good giving more power. potentially transferring spending taxation power particular regions and say the North of England Where does that money come from Where is it being spent currently? Are we saying less infrastructure in the southeast more in the north That's going to be controversial. I mean the other thing to say, if I could just zoom out the kaleidoscope, no one even has a kaidoscope anymore. I'm sounding so twentieth century here. But actually when you think about how prime ministers arrived at number ten before, Margaret Thatcher elected in nineteen seventy five as leader of the Conservative Party elected and then became Prime Minister in nineteen seventy nine David Cameron elected as Conservative Party leader in two thousand five, becomingime mininister in twenty ten, Tony Blair becoming leader of the Labour Party in nineteen ninety four becoming Prime Minister on election in nineteen ninety seven. Those are years of preparation for your programme. And this business of one speech by Andy Burnne on Monday with all these sort of pre existing The Cleaning starts with one small task and suddenly it's the whole house. Luckily, there's Air Tasker. Post your task, set your budget, and choose a tasker to help, from carpet cleaning to finally tackling the junk drawer. 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And this is very different I would argue actually though, No, you look at our great metropolitan leaders put Burn aside. People like Richard Lee, S Howard Berstein, the late S Howard Bernstein, who have transformed cities their former ch Chief executive of Manchter Cityouncil former leader Manchter City Council. I' wondering in the noties in two thousand. were Why weren't they called upon to do some of that transformation across the country? There There is something to this critique that Westminstter is obsessed with itself and the games within itself and doesn't literally, you know everyone now is an expert on Mch manarism manister regeneration You know, honestly, how many how many the guests we have in this room knew anything about this before six months ago. There was something very, very interesting happening in Manchester. I mean I just happened to be from there, so I already have noticed it. So there's that. So there's supply chain. if you like, if you've done well in a region, There's a basis upon which to build on. so that is interesting Also, the way in which you'd become leader, I was thinking about this just whilst I was cyling in, you think about David Cameron becoming a consonservative leader. He made a series of promises that were hugely consequential on Europe to the Eurosceptics, which ended up frankly with the referendum. Okay? It was literally his promise to leave the European People's Party and I forget which year it was That led to a He's saying he's clean skinn. he's got form, but he also hasn't got like many promises. Alough he says he'll stick to the manifesto, so he as I think? Well, this is the thing, right? Can if you look at his book How much of that Venn diagram overlaps with what was in the manifesto? Right Now I think what's the answer? Well, there's two big judgments to make now that we can discern over the next week that are absolutely vital for the next couple of years We'll go into to the choice of Chancellor but also Is he going to come out with pure benimism, you know as is contained in his book Head North, which is what he believes. There's all sorts of constitutional stuff in there about proportional representation, abolishing the House of Lords. He believes this And this goes back to a different part of his hinterland, which is the infected blood and the Hillsborough Inquiry You know, he believes that that is symptomatic of a failing at the heart of of the way Britain is run. You have to fight You need a written Cstitution that you look to what's happened in Germany, with East Germany and how they've leveled things up in East Germany with big transfers and you try to apply that to the UK. Now Yeah there are a big consequences this. So the question I will that should be answered in the next couple of weeks, really. is Is he going to? Push ahead delivering the manifesto, therefore he can go long on an election, orr does he want a new mandate what he wrote in his book In which case, I imagine we're going to get an election. sooner For what it's worth, he said to me on june the fifth and obviously people can change and you know thingsings have sort of speeded up. He said, he believed that there are Uing the manifesto, there are more things you can do. For example, we know he is in favor of stronger public control of the essentials, transport, housing, energy, water he thinks within the current manifesto, you could go further on that. Now whether that means nationalizing Thames water or whether that and he did say he would nationalize Tham's water, or whether that just means better regulation, you know We say offcO iss not very good or off what is toothless, etcetera, etc. Is there better regulation? Does that mean stronger public control that you could do within the current manifesto? Can I read this email from Steph? Do you mind? I think it's essential. Stephanie says Does Andy Burnham have a mandate for change? obbviously speaks to what you were saying, Fisal. She thinks yes and says we are not a presidential system. Power lies with the party that won the most seats. The party has a mandate and that party can make whoever they want their leader please discuss I mean the answer to Stephan is yes, the system allows you to change the party leader. The system has been really stress tested in ten years because we haven't really been used to this churn for a very long time. It has happened at various other stages in our history, but it hasn't happened recently. So I think the detail does matter. and we take an example of what you just mentioned, Victoria, which was nationalizations. Now a mass program of seizing the commanding heights of the economy or paying tens of billions of pounds You'd struggle to see a justification for that in the manifesto. Yeah Now But there's a mixed economy here. And again, you take the example of Manchester, againg, not many people More people should know this, but one of the unique characteristics of Greater Manchester is that they half own one of our biggest airports. In fact, they also own Sunset airport bizarrely. That's a big that yields profits to the councils for Manchester. It also means there's a certain strategic lever there. L I don't know if know it means that when the people in charge of manager are talking to big international investors, sovereign wealth funds that own airlines, for example, you can actually have levers of power there that are necessary. And like it's a very, very interesting and so You know, is that the model? Do that model work us. Britain. I think they will point to the growth figures in the centre of Manchester, the city of Manchester and say there's something here for the rest of the country to follow It is a fairly unique set circumstance Who might be the next chancellor because that's such a key role and will tell us so much about the direction of travel. I don't think we're going to know quickly I think literally decisions haven't been made. There are various people across Westminster somewhat spinning for their people. I mean, the briefing that's going on, the trashing of some candidates and the jockeying for position is, you know, I suppose it's what you would expect. We should have a debate, shouldn't? we should bring it out in the open. We should to have them linded up Well because in the studio is it right to say there are three? Three candidates? Well, I've heard that there are three and then there are also another two Right. So I do ne I don't know and I can find yes. Yes I do. So we can all get the three So the three are Ed Miliban. Subanam Mood W streeting. West streeting. Yeah And the other two uh I knew this would be hard. That's why Is it someone that they could put in the laords, or is it people who are electx? Well, I think you then get into a situation where if they do split things up So here's the other thing to bear in mind, right? really? when you think about the Chancellor. is that from what we've already heard as well That's quite astonishing. economic muscle potentially going into number ten Okay which would make a big, big difference. like I have not heard of a number ten, if you' like being economically tooled up with the likes of a Jim O'Neill and Andy Holde And Richard you know, Richard Hughes explain of the OBR. So Andy Helden is the former Bank of England's chief economist And Richard Hughes is the former chair of the OBR, considered within the Treasury. Obviously he made that mistake or took responsibility for the mistake over the leaking of the OBR documents last year, but he is considered in the treasury to be their best fiscal economist and a great loss to the treasury. So Jim O'Nill, former Goldman Sachaxe banker and non executive director of Madis United. Right. And did a lot of work with Northern Powerhouse when George Osborne was Chancelll? Yes,es was connected to the tourism. Is is the significance that you said they're going into number ten not number eleven. are you reminding us that they're going round the prime Minister of those people? Hang on, we've got too many questions here. Who are the other two? Oh Aaron Jones and I don't I actually don't know. I could So if they split up the treasury, then you're like, well what's the more most powerful bit there? Well, the chancellor would become the physical I don't know the answer to that question. I don't know it is there's think I think it's highly unlikely. I don't know.. I've been told that there's the three we know about them and theres there's more and there's more here's Chrictor and I were thinking you knew them and we know, no, no,. I don't I'm guessing I'm guessing. I'messing that I'm guessing that it's It's probably quite a small chance Like the current chanceor is not one hundred percent out of it, but probably small chance. She has been doing interviews this week suggesting that her work is unfinished and yes clearly wanting to stay in that job and that the bond markets find her credible and so on this is really rather interesting because I think I know what has been noticed within some of the economic people around Burnham is that this week there hasn't been a flicker out of the bond markark. correct. That is really interesting. Yeah. I think that there are a lot of people, particularly on the opposition benches who sort of assuming possibly even willing it into being you know, obviously the background internationally has been beneficial, the oil prices have been coming down and the like U but Given everything You might have expected the effective borrowing rate of the government to have gone up this week amid the uncertainty. it hasn't. and that is still with Ed Milliband seene as probably circling. Not the most favourite but the single most likely Given that Andnty Burnham's already said he's going to stick to the fiscal rules. which and as soon as his team made that clear to you, Fizel which was two days after Josh Simmons had resigned as MP for Makerfield the cost of borrowing over ten years dropped back a bit. so So maybe that's in you know, enough for the time being I think you're getting very interesting briefing here where it gets really pretty interesting. So you take peoplee in sort of Ed Miliban's circle stressing that he can be in an unexpected way. So he's been painted as very red a, very left wing, all lot that of stuff that went back to his election But the sort of message we're getting out of Miliban's people is said, o, hang on a minute He's the one that He's certainly one of the main voices that suggested very strongly that the physical rules need to be unequivocally stuck to. numberumber one. And number two, and this is really very interesting, I think which is that the he could be the person to deliver welfare reform And we've heard from Bennam that that process with Alan Milbourne, which we covered in such depth where Milbourne did not come up with any actual policies. But like my reading of that of the logical policy that Milbourne would come up with would be some sort of restriction on universal credit for young people That's where it seems to be heading to me in like crystal clear. Yeah. Imagine that going off just after If he'd suggested that in the middle of what was happening to the Prime Minister in middle May. So they parked that, it is still coming That's where the logic train gets you to.. Now if Berham Milliband or others are saying that they have the credibility to revisit that and deliver that. That is the sort of thing that maybe the markets might be impressed with Because they have assumed that this government, notwithstanding its massive majority, ain't going to go there. Well again after what happened a year ago.. So if they say to the markets, well, do you know what? you think we're lefties? actually we can do. So News Nnight has done a bit of digging in the archive and this is really perhaps for you to explain, but looking at the character of James Perneell.es, who could be coming Yeah. So he is going to be Andy Burnham's Chief of staff So he'll be running them return essentially. is that right Yeah, sorry, I'm gl with all the people Oh we had to check what month it was Yeah Yeah. Yeah. And so he was a Blairite. He was in charge of the DWP for a period of time. and when he left A When he got it ended up in opposition after twenty ten, he did a film for News Night, thoseose were the days and talks about welfare reform and how it should be changed and what should be cut and so on and so forth. And here's a clip from the Newsnight Archives What we now need to do is to protect people against the things they're really scared about, losing their home, losing their job Being ill for a long time in old age, and if there are other benefits which people don't value as much, I would put them further down the list of priorities. I'm not saying necessarily get rid of child benefit. I'm saying let's order all the things that we care about and let's see the ones that are most vulnerable. What's at the bottom? What do we care least about that we're currently paying? I think winter fuel allowances, I think free bus passes say that if you're an old person who couldn't afford their fuel bill, would you? I talked to lots of people who are in their sixties, for example, about free bus passes who said I should get this when I'm seventy, when I'm eighty So yes, that was twenty eleven. I have no idea if he still feels the same way. you know. fifteen years on. But it speaks to Foazl's point, which is about look at who's coming in and who he's surrounding himself with. Jim O'Neill, Andy Holde and James Pernell, who all have said interesting things on the record. For instance, Jim O'Neill's been talking about investing in infrastructure. Yes, which you can do within the fiscal rules, you can bend them a little bit. Ed Milliband has done that within the Department for the Environment in terms of funding for So insulation and the like, you can do some clever stuff with borrowing within the physical rules. And it goes back to your point, Padty, which is about If he is to come in without having made too many promises He might be able to bend his mandate in all sorts of ways persuade the markets and others. that well, you know, yeah, I can deliver things like this. You know, he's obviously always been rather big. One of the features of Andy Burnham's background in policy has been obsession with social care and the fact that social care has not been sorted out, I think we can all agree that it hasn't been sorted out Lgically, that's going to require some sort of tax rise, right? That's always been I mean, how do you fund it? How do you create a sort of NHS of social care Well, you know I'm So How clean his entry in over the next two or three weeks And I think the other thing that I discern from the Labour Party is that they have looked at what the Conservatives done the method of the Q as you call, it matters. If it's done in a painful way that creates agony and annoyance that festers You don't have a stable majority. You may have a theoretical majority, but it's just not there. What does that mean? It means the markets don't trust that you can get your policies out your budget So the way in which the Labour Party is attempting to pull this off which is just here you go It's all yours now There's some democratic issues there. I'm sure that we're going to be litigated But actually in terms of saying Maximum flexibility but also saying to the markets, I can get my budget through I mean it was an astonishing thing. to think that Rachel Reeves and Kar Starmer n't get that budget through. I remember sat there in the T of got new studio thinking, I just, you know You know, we thought this is understandable when you're in a minority government. It's understandable when you've got a small majority But it's astonishing that they couldn't do that. Everything about this has been astonishing. And just on what the other political parties will say, I think the further he does go from what amounted to I won't pull the three big levers, that manifesto, I won't raise tax, I won't raise VAT and I won't raise employee national insurance. The further he ebbs from that, the more the clamour will be for general election, which is a point I think you've already made. But one of the things that it's not clear to me about is if you extend the base of VAT, have you put VAT up And I just wonder if there's quite a lot of wiggle room, which could be worth five billion without breaking a manifesto pledge. If I put value or more things, FIisL, have I put VAT up U there would I Now you I'm stretching my memory now of whether the manifesto mentioned the rate alone of VAT or whether it was implied. I certainly know in terms of the fiscal drag which is the freezing of the income tax thresholds I asked Rachel Reeves about that full the election and she explicitly said it wasn't included that promise. So they had some wiggle room on that, but reasonably, it was an increase in income tax. So like totally reasonable political point You can always find I imagine there's going to be some things done on things like councsel attacks, right? You know, the, you know and He's talked about land taxes And he's talked about trying to fund these big infrastructure projects that we've seen some feet tracking on I think things like HS two some sort of son have definitely not called HS two but looks rather like HS two all the way up to Manchester. coming back. It's back on the agenda Norther they'll speed up Northern powerhouse rail. There's all this constitutional stuff. like, I mean, and Victory, you know a lot more about this than I do on things like The Infected Blood Inquiry in Hillsborough It seems to rare and then his connection with Deeve Roththerham It seems to really define what he wants to he views the dysfunction of Westminster Well, that's, I mean, you will know the government has been trying to get through this Hillsborough law and at the first conference Labour Party conference in Liverpool when K St. his first conference is Primeinister I spoke to Andy Burnham, Steve Rothotherham stight after the conference speech, where Kase Aarrmer said this will be the government that brings in the Hillsboro la And they had tears in their eyes. They were so emotional about the fact that a labour government was doing this and we're two years on and it still hasn't happened. And that You know, there are so many priorities for You know, Andnty Burnham is prime Mister, he's on courses to be it But that has got to be up there, that duty of candor for everyone in public office to tell the truth. That's part of that would strike me as being part of his DNA that sort of trruth telling fairness to make sure those injustices like post offffice infected bllood Hillsborough nuclear veterans It doesn't happen because it seems, and you're right to mention that Victor has done a lot of work in this area as you have, it seems that you have to drag the British state to do the right thing. That's what it feels like to people. And it is in fact what people have said you do have to do. There's been apology after apology after apology for waiting too long to do anything. And when we played that clip from twenty eleven James Pinenell speaking to Jeremy Paxman Since the financial crisis of two thousand eight, it's not really very clear that people's living standards have gone up in nearly twenty years. So you've also got you've got a stasis of the state do the right thing and you've got a stasis of living standards and that explains a lot of our political anger at the moment, f. I don't know if you agree the idea that it seems to be if it's working, it's working for somebody else. Yes. And so this is where it gets very, very interesting because the outlet for that anger including some social media as well has been in what is loosely called a cultureal He, I think, thinks that actually peopleople think the state isn't working And and you just you have there needs to be a sort of you need to fix everything. or as much as you can You need to rebuild Britain essentially and that that will appeal to some of the same voters that Stain. Nigel Farage has proven very successful at attracting in the past couple of years. However passionately he feels about some of these injustices that have required inquiries And we've always seen with the Wasby women pension issue that there was a lot of C concern about that when push comes to shove in government Kistama we just can't pay. several billion over ten billion on this and it was sort of parked On the issue of Hillsborough, for example, on the duty of Candor, there has been this concern for L law authorities, doesn't there and potentiallyise a secret Service. And the secret Service actually Yeah. now It's one thing as the mayor of Manchester. saying that No Now as soon as if you become Prime Minister and you get whatever is the secret briefcase of information Do you change your view on that I mean yeah. You can't go on. You can't go on I mean, you can, I know you can, but unfortunately, the clock has defeated us