Regulating platforms and protecting children

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK Who's actually won the Iran War? I'm Tristan Redman. And I'm Assmaahhalid and together we host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. The U.S and Iran say they've struck a deal to end the war But a key question is what's actually been achieved by nearly four months of fighting And is the situation better, worse or the same for the region and Iran? For the full story, check out the global story on bbc dot com or wherever you get your podcast Hello in the first half of this episode of Newscast, we will do a deep dive into the text of the US and Iran deal, which has seized world attention after it emerged on Wednesday night and has been signed multiple times in multiple different formats since then it seems. But make sure you listen to the second half of newewscast because We're going to combine a few things A VIP politician from abroad. The UK social media ban for under sixteen year olds, which was announced this week And yes eporter Reporter, our feature where we find a newscast in all forty eight of the countries represented in the World Cup Intrigued you will be if you listen to this episode of Newcast ewscast Newscast from the BBC Humanity's next great voyage begins. We are in the midst of a rupture. Nostalgia will not bring back the old order. sixty seven Yeah It's supposed to be me as a doctor. There he has also a special conotation.. Thinking about it like a pano helped. Do we play music now? what do we say? Hello, it's Adam in the Newscast stududio, more on social media and how to tackle it shortly. But first of all, we're going to look at Donald Trump's deal with Iran So bits of the deal have been leaking out throughout the week. Then on Wednesday night, in quite strange circumstances, journalists were briefed on the full text. and then on Wednesday night we got the spectacle of Donald Trump leaving the G seven summit in Evianne, when it concluded, to fly to the Palace of Versailles for a post banquet with a manual macroon with a little side order of deal being signed go with it. So what's actually in the deal and what are people saying about it? We've got two people who can do a very good job of telling us both those things. Joining us now, Chief international correspondent, Lis Dussette. Lis, where in the world are you? Well, I'm in a place I don't normally visit and I'm in Switzerland. I'm in Lucerne in the central part of Switzerland, about a twenty minute drive from the Fancy resort, Borgenstock where we understand that another formal signing of the Iran U. S. deal is going to be signed and they will actually on the spot then begin those negotiations, that sixty days of negotiation. So it's quite it's a historic moment for all of the questions marks above this historic moment And also joining us is Chief North America correspondent, Gary O'Donahghue. Hi, Gary. Hi, Adam. I'm in Steamy, Washington as you know. Yes, where there's just as much action happening as well, but maybe fewer mountains. Right, lots to get through in terms of what this Iran deal is. Last, first of all, just talk us through the pictures we got from Palace of Versailles on Wednesday night, just as you and I were sitting down to be on the newews night sofa together. Yes. well there you had it the G seven Nations, President Trump holding court to use the Versailles and he did the signing of the deal. He himself The deal had been signed digitally before then it was signed by President Trump. and now we've had After in these indirect talks for weeks now we've had the exchange of messages. Now we've had the exchange of photographs. So President Trump signed it in Versailles. President Masud Peseson signed in Tehron One of the key mediators, the Pakistani Prime Minister No Shabal Sharif. He signed and they put up pictures of his signing this morning and Qatar we expect will also be here tomorrow for this next step of the process. There was a lot of congratulations to President Trump by President Macro and others saying well done. and for all of the criticism of this deal that Gary knows so well the presresident seems very proud of himself And We can talk about some of the implications of it in a second, but just in terms of how this deal has been rolled out, Gary, is it true that you were on this big conference call on Wednesday night where or Wednesday afternoon where you are where the U.S. officials were reading it out word for word to you down the phone? Yeah, I can't tell you who it was. It was a very senior administration official They literally read it out. They read it out and they gave a little commentary on each paragraph, I mean, the spin, as you might call it it took an hour or so and then there were lots and lots of questions And there were lots of attempts to clarify various points on it. partarticularly the issue around this hundred dollars three hundred billion dollar Reconstruction Fund, which is already coming for criticism from some Republicans here and also some clarification around the nuclear issue because If you remember, the US said it was going to take that nuclear material out of the country, the deal does not say that even according to the Americans. So there's lots to get into in the detail here. and what we're seeing now is a battle royal for public opinion, a real battle to see who wins the spin game over what this deal means in the coming days. Well, let's dig into the deal then. We won't do all fourteen points, but I thought we could recreate that conference call, Gary was on Wednesday night by going through some of it in detail and then get both of you to comment on it. So the first point is the United States of America and the Islamic Republic of Iran and their allies in the current war B signing this memorandum of understanding, declare the immediate and permanent termination of military operations on all fronts, including in Lebanon. So at least that's basically the sixty day ceasefire to open some space to negotiate some other details. But there's the word permanent in there. This is what Iran has called for from the beginning. and everyone said, well, how can you actually achieve that? The end of the war? They've made it clear they don't want to lurch from one ceasefire to the next. Bear in mind, there was another war, twelve day war in twenty twenty five. They said as part of this deal, it has to be the end of the war So this seems to signal that this is what it's all about, not just for sixty days, but the end of the war. I don't know what they said in Gary's conversation, but critically as well, Lebanon. already today, we're hearing of Israeli strikes. we're hearing also of casualties, and this is going to be One of the many weak pillars of this of this new process if you like Adam, it's also worth saying that that mention of Lebanon is the only mention of Lebanon in the whole document There's nothing else about what happens with Lebanon. That one mention. And of course, Hezbollah and the Israeli government who are responsible for the hostilities in southern Lebanon are not parties to this agreement, Gary No, they're not Nor is Israel. And that is the thing that could derail the whole thing in the medium and longer term Uh Israel, of course, the Prime Minister is facing elections. He's facing a hammering at home over this deal. People saying it was good you started it, but you didn't finish it And then the president here expressing his frustration with Benjamin Netanyahu, telling him he doesn't have to knock down apartment blocks to kill one person, even suggesting extraordinarily suggesting this idea that the Syrians could go and sort out Lebanon I mean, which is, you know, obviously unthinkable, I mean, in all sorts of ways. So yeah, so that is That is the big unknown about the future in terms of the stability of this whole deal And then least points four and five are about the lifting of the US blockade of Iranian vessels in the Strait of Hormuz and then Iran reopening the Strait of Hormuz to everybody. How do we think that is actually going to work In this beginning, it's starting to work very well. The vessels are already going through some Iranian oil tankers. are said to have move through the straits. It will take time. We understand. for the mines to be cleaar. that could be a matter of weeks, maybe even even months. Those tankers, those other vessels have been idling there for many, many months. and so it may take a bit of time. They have to be reassured that this is going to last. But we've already seen the oil prices have down in fact, they're now, I think I read just before I joined you that they're the lowest They've gone back to the level before the war. and also the market has market is is now has gone up, the activity in the market, which has led President Trump to issue one of his truth truth social posts. if I remember correctly, he said, Anyone who criticizes this deal, after he noted how the markets have responded, he said is are stupid, ignorant or just jealous Crucially The deal also says that the The Straight of Hormz will remain toall free for sixty days and then there is to be a regional dialogue to decide how to run the strait in thera of run the strait of Hormuz this strategic waterway. And this is where this is where Iran is going to insist. We are already hearing from senior Iranian officials today. President Trump says there will be no tolls But there will be something according to Iran. They're planning to charge some kind of fees for services. They've already had discussions throughout the war and the ceasefire with Oman, which controls the southern coast of the strategic strait. Of course, there'll be other other countries in the region like the United Arab Emirates, which don't want Iran to have any foothold at all in the strait, seeing it as a dangerous precedent for straits the world over. but this is just the beginning for Iran. And I think Gary would say that that is another weakness as far as the critics of the deal are concerned Yeah, it's interesting the spin here on that is that look, you know when this discussion takes place after sixty days, none of those other countries in the Gulf are going to allow Iran to charge. That's their spin here. That still leaves open the distinct possibility that there could be a position we get to after this war where there are these charges, and that would be completely different to what we had before the war Part of me wonders, of course, because the U.S isn't all that dependent on on all that goes through those straight at all. Part of me wonders whether there's a sort of competitive advantage for the U.S. I mean, maybe that's too Machiavellian, but maybe there's some sort of advantage in that ending up being the case. Who knows? but you might know China's oil imports more expensive but America doesn't getood. wouldt. It would, wouldn't it? So who knows what the thinking is behind that, but certainly the spin is, of course it won't happen because other countries in the region won't let it happen. J another quick thing on the minds. that is a key point There's a load of mines there One A very senior national security official told me recently that they have a pretty good idea where they all are. And the other thing they're saying here is that the the sort of risk, the appetite for risk varies significantly between different shipping operators. So some, you know, are prepared to go through this southern channel ne Irman and take a chance. Others are much more risk averse. I want to wait and see until it's cleared. So There's not kind of just a switch that you flick and everyone suddenly sails out of the golf into the the S of amand, that's not the way it's going to work And then point six of this fourteen point plan is the one that you were referring to earlier, Gary, about this three hundred billion dollars reconstruction fund and that's two hundred twenty five billion pounds in starling. Just explain what the idea of that is Well The idea is opaque. I mean, what the deal says is that the US undertakes along with its other well other regional powers to create this at least three hundred billion dollars. This is what it says, at least three hundred billion dollars Funds now The spin on this yesterday wasre not we don't have to pay them a cent. It's all performance based. It'll probably come from sanctions relief and unfreezing of assets.' you know, we're not giving them anything. So the words kind of don't really match what u, you know, what the spin was yesterday. And there's a reason for that, which is because this is the thing that will really get under the skin of Republicans here. And we've already said to Ted seen Ted Cruz, the Texas Republican senator come out and say, you know, if this is it, then this is a huge mistake. Oh, but we love your deal, President Trump. So's there's potential here. I mean, Bill Cassidy, another Republican senator who's no friend of Donald Trump and has actually been primaried out of of his seat in November. He said it was the worst foreign policy mistake in decades. I mean, he kind of would say that, wouldn't he? But even so, there will be others who think that who aren't prepared to say it out loud. So there's a lot of questions around that fund. you know It's very tempting, isn't it? given the context of Versailles. to use other words for that fund, maybe that begin with a and like reparation. Yeah, lots of Versailles jokes being made after the banquet and the signing last night. And then at least we get ono point seven and eight, which is talking about the US lifting their sanctions on Iran, which would then allow Iran to sell loads more stuff like oil on the international market And then what the Iranian government's responsibilities would be for its nuclear program in return. Just explain what we think is going to happen there Well, there's a lot of criticism too that there's been a temporary waving of the sanctions which have prevented or at least the restrictions preventing Iran from exporting its crude oil, its petroleum product And now it has waivers allowing it to do that and also to access the transportation services and the banking services which are necessary for carrying out those kind of deals And then gets to the sanctions and unfreezing of the assets That's in the second part of the deal. and that is where That is where Iran is going to have to make concessions. I think there's a widespread assessment that when you do the when you add it up, Iran has done really well on this memorandum understanding or many are now saying the memorandum of misunderstanding. But if Iran wants the sanctions lifted, if they want the frozen assets. And it's interesting on that. I'm sure you noticed it Gary President Obama had released Iranian money that had been frozen as part of the Iran nuclear deal in twenty fifteen. And President Trump never stopped saying, lookook at that money that President Obama gave to the Iranians And yesterday he said, Well, no, that's their money. It belongs to them. compleplete turn about and how he described that kind of money But there's the wording of, I don't have happen it in front of me, the wording of is something on a schedule that will be agreed by both sides. In other words, Iran will have to take a step and then sanctions will be lifisted. It will be Iran has said it wants these kinds of negotiations. you do this very transactional like President Trump like. You do this and we'll do that But when it comes to the nuclear program, which is really the core of this deal For all of the ways in which President Trump you changes from one day to the next, what he really want wanted to achieve in Iran, was he was always consistent. It was about that Iran could never acquire or develop a nuclear weapon. So that is key in this agreement. They're using words either reiterate or reaffirm reiterate or reffirm, which means to say Iran has said this before. It's been saying it for many, many years. It said it in the twenty fifteen nuclear deal And when they get the little hints of what shape what will be the shape of Iran's nuclear deal, as Gary mentioned, there's no mention of President Trump's repeated demand that what he calls nuclear dust which is four hundred and forty kilograms of highly enriched uranium has to be shipped out to the United States Instead, there's a mention of the down blending which diluting this uranium. and that's a concession Iran made Before the war, I was in those talks in Genevan, which coincidentally, on february twenty sixth, Iran offered to dilute its highly enriched uranium. again, which prompts the critics to say, what was the point of this war? You could have got that before you spend billions and billions of American taxpayers dollars. And Lise, and Gary, I'm just thinking of things that we've become very familiar with over the last few months that don't really appear anywhere in this text. Iran's support for its proxies around the region. We've already talked about Hezbollah in Lebanon. Iran's ballistic missile program, so not nuclear weapons, just conventional weapons that could be used to hit, I don't know, American aircraft carriers or other targets regime change and the Supreme leader is still the son of the previous Supreme leadeer. Gary, there's a lot of things that have been talked about extensively that are just not addressed. Yeah, the ballistic missile programe is a big one and that is also something that will will annoy a lot of Trump supporters here because of the direct threat, obviously to Israel and for those on the right who are you know significant and big backers of Israel here. that is something that they have always been concerned about. But that is that is not on the table at all. In terms of the proxies, the spinner has been well look, you know, we've told them they can't sponsor violence in the region anymore? Well, okay, well, let's Let's see how that one pans out. But there's you the focus for this administration has been the nuclear material in particular, and that's where they think they've got the win. But there is a lot that has been on the table at various points that is not in this deal whatsoever. So that is you know, that will be chalked up, I think as a win for the Iranians on this memorandum of undernderstanding And that's why, you know, we've had multiple briefings, you know, as you know, as we ten minutes from when we're talking as we record this You know, the vice president is actually going to be at the White House doing another big brief public briefing this time for members of the press in the press room about this deal. So the offensive is on Well, Gary, I will take the hint and let you go and watch JD Vance. And then Lise, you will welcome JD Vance, not personally, but you'll see him where you are on Friday. Yeah think For all of our talk about the going back and forth, this is a historic moment. 'm in Switzerland and I keep thinking about that hot summer's Day in july twenty fifteen and the feeling then that for all of the shortcomings of the twenty fifteen deal, President Obama always said, there's no trust in this deal. You have to verify, verify, verify. and negotiations is about give and take. Both sides got something and both sides lost something But I can still remember the heiness of that day that truly history was made multilateral arms control agreement fast forward to where we are today, the press coverage is going to be limited. There's only going to be pool cameras. I'm just I'm thinking, well, what will it feel like tomorrow to see if this happens, if the American Vice President JD Vance is in public shaking hands with Mohammed Bagar Galibath, the speaker of the Parliament, sending a symbol of this is an effort. I'm not going to say like President Trump that he's done it already, but an effort to try to begin to end forty seven years of enmity Then that is something, that is something to take note of. Well, thank you for taking note for us, Last. thank you. Thank you. Good to be with you. And Gary, thanks to you too. Thanks Adam Now we got so much feedback about our interview with Bridget Phillipson about social media that we thought we'd maybe plow this furrough for a bit longer. And we had a really interesting email from a newscaster who's got a special interest in this subject. doesn't live in the UK Here is their email Thanks for your newscast podcast. It's how I keep up with UK politics. Thanks especially for the episode on the social media ban I've had a lot to do with the ban in Australia. Indeed, I raised it in my maiden speech to the Australian House of Representatives when I was first elected in twenty twenty two. I also heard your call out at the end of the pod for newscast listeners in World Cup countries. I am happy to be Australia if you need someone from there, although I recognise an Australian politician might not be what you had in mind That said, I might be a low cred choice only because I missed the first match, Australia two, Turkey Nil on Sunday, because I was at an electorate event Let me know what you think And that email was from the Australian MP Zoe Mackenzie, a member of the Liberal Party for the Division of Flinders in Victoria. And she's on newscast now. Hello, Zoe. Hello. It's so exciting to join you from sixteen thousand od kilometers away Well, and thank you for listening all that distance. Well, as I think I said, I've been listening to you for years now, like since you were a Brexit cast, right? Because Brexit was so interesting for us. I'd also been working global trade for a long time. So of course, it meant, you know, a new potential free trade agreement that ultimately was signed And so what Brexit meant in terms of global trading partner, in terms of um, you know, really Reconnecting some of our bonds. I think with the United Kingdom was really interesting here for Australia. so I listened to you all through the Brexit cast years and now to newscast. Well, thank you very much. Thanks for staying with us. Let's talk about current things and the social media ban. So obviously that's big news here in the UK because the government's announced this week that they're planning to go ahead with it, probably in spring next year. I mean, how is it going in the place that invented it? Australia? It sometimes feels two steps forward, one step back inso far as it was a long time coming. You know, I mentioned to you in my email that I had first raised this as an issue in September of twenty twenty two. We just come off the back of COVID My hometown of Melbourne had particularly strict lockdowns over a period of two and three years. and I could say In my own step kids, in my friends kids, the impact that too much screening particular, too much social media was having on kids. I think it started a long conversation in the Australian Parliament. which then, I think, in a similar kind of weird political twist our leader of our Cervative partarty, so the Liberal Party came out and said, rightight, We're going to do something on this, which then forced the government to have a good hard look at it They eventually did an inquiry and an investigation into what was going on and then said we will move to Ban and then gave the platforms twelve months to actually implement a system to ensure sixteen year olds would be entirely de platformed but de accounted. They couldn't have accounts anymore. You can still be on the platforms if you through a web browser portal, if you want to go on TikToop and things like that But we figured it was the account that drove the algorithmic push and it was more likely to lead to infinite scrolling because it's perfectly attuned to the account holder And so that's what we targeted. Now that came into effect in December of last year. And the first and only sort of report card we've had so far, which was three months in, said that about five million accounts had been sort of canceled Now That sounds like a losh because we have less than five million people agge between thirteen and sixteen. And our age is sixteen. What we hear is that now about thirty percent of kids in that age group still have accounts how that has that happened? Well, we think it's, you know, a combination of VPNs, crafted kids grabbing your sister to, you know, show her face to the screen. So we haven't we haven't implemented sort of proof of age through digital ID or passports or anything like that. we ask the platforms to use their know how to determine the age of the users. We're very confident they can actually do that because in the year before the ban came into place, TikTok actually cancellled eight hundred thousand accounts in Australia because it was very confident that they were under what is the US age of thirteen So we know they can do it And it's just a question of the rigorousness with which they do it. Now Since discussing this in Australia, I have traveled and spoken to either public servants or pololicy advisers or parliamentari ins in Denmark, France, Germany, the EU good fuck at the OACD and just bicyically because A little market like ours of twenty six million people is not quite enough to get the platforms to fully comply bring Be they're like, oh it's only Australia. It's not like it's the EU they're huge. Yeah. We get the whole, you know, if you make this too hard, we will leave. You guys can't. You're much bigger than we are. We're probably much more valuable to them as a market as well. So once Europe comes on board, the platforms sort of have nowhere to run in h So I've always been very keen that Europe actually sign up to this as well. and obviously the EU is as well and you've made this declaration on Monday that you will go down that path. And I think there's great overlap, my quick review of which platforms targeted by your change are roughly the same as ours. So again, that will mean those big ones in particular are forced to tackle this properly. On that thirty percent Do you think that that's just sort of it's going to be a fact of life that any jurisdiction that imposes a ban like this, you're probably going to have around about a third of children are able to find a way around it? Or is the goal to sort of drive that down even further No The the goal is to drive it down even further. You know, we're not in the habit of passing legislation that we hope it'll be partially addressed We pass the legislation because that's what we expect the platforms to do. And so the eD saafety Commissioner here who has very strong powers in this respect. And indeed, if we believe a platform hasn't taken reasonable steps to comply They can be fined up to forty nine point five million Australian dollars. But you know, it's not an inconsequential fine to not try hard enough And again, I suspect the systems will have to get much more robust in terms of making sure that those accounts closed until the user is sixteen. And again, as I said, I'll get more of us because your market is bigger And y at the European market of four hundred and fifty million people as well and it is even bigger still. So that we will get there, we will get there in the end Okay. And just in terms of how it works in Australia, and I'm thinking about practicalities here, one of the things that people have raised this week as a concern is the logical extension of this that every user has to prove their age in some way whenever they want to use one of these apps. And so actually that's the way that you stop young people having access to them is by making everyone have to prove their age all the time Do doesnn't sound to me like that's the thing that happens in Australia No, it's not. and Man I say there were lots of kind of furfies and panic stories circulated at the time, you know, lots of cries of free speech and all this sort of stuff. and whose What we're trying to do at the heart of this reform is to create a market for safer social media This was a conversation I had with my friends from the city or in Germany recently. they said, Well, we don't like to interfere in a market like this. And I said, yes, but just think about it this way. What we're trying to do is create a safer market in same way that we have safe markets for solar panels and safe markets for home heaters and ovens and safe markets for cars. It's just trying to ask for a safer market for social media for teenagers because the evidence of damage is just too great. There's a tipping point at which Legislators must act and we have done that. Over time, it will get better. It's probably taking longer too much be fair I'm in the opposition. We would have liked it to have been done better. We would like it to have be done swifter But we understand as the sort of first mover in this space that it will take time. And again, I've said, I'll be much happier when we've got bigger markets taking similar reforms becausecause then, you know, your metters and your Googles and others to find a way to do it And then one of the other concerns being raised this week is the sort of the YouTube science lecture complaint. What if you're limiting access to YouTube for students who are really into a particular subject and you're denying them access to Nobel Prize winners, doing lectures and posting them online. And that's exactly the case here. Like I heard your podcast yesterday day before with your education minister equivalent and just the importance of some of these tools as education tools and which side of the line you need to fall. So YouTube is used across the education system in Australia now. and so you can't deny access, know it's part of the curriculum. What happens now is kids can click on a particular YouTube link and then go find things. The only thing they can't do is have an account. Some people have said, well, hold on, I actually liked having an account for my child before because as the parent, I could monitor it. And that If that was every parent and every parent had the time to be able to do that, We probably wouldn't have a problem But it was overwhelmingly the parents who came to us and said I had no idea what rabbit holes my child was going into. I had no idea this could take hold of my child's mental health. and so You'd have happy, independent, resilient child and six weeks ler. a very, very precariously depressed child parents felt unable to either monitor or guide because of course all of our algorithmic fs are completely idiosyncratic They' you know, we' We are a bit similar to you at the moment. We'reving great fluctuations in Australian politics here with some more u right wing party particularly about things like migration People ring me in a panning and they go, Ohh my go, there's all this terrible stuff online and it's which you've never seen. see. And go, I don't see any. I'm like a polyian a politician. I don't see any of st. I was like goodood stuff and good debate, interesting debate. And what's happening in the United Kingdom in social media? But that's because that's stuff I'm interested in, right? So you get f what you're interested in. And so people think that their kids are just saying what they're saying. and it's like, No, your child is in a very veryly different place and unless you're sitting on their shoulder You're not going to see where your child is digitally. Yeah. I'm just wondering how this is going to work in the UK because now that you talk us through very clearly that it's about accessing accounts as opposed to accessing the services. because the way our ministers talk about it here is it's that a fourteen year old set of eyeballs will never get sight of TikTok in any form until those eyeballs turn sixteen, which is a slightly grim way of talking about it. I realize, but and actually that's not what you do No. So we basically say no accounts, but that means you have an account and you want to show it to your child, you're welcome to do that particularly if you can be there with them and talk about what they're seeing and that would be an ideal case And again, they can go to the platforms themselves and they can go on YouTube, they can probably go on Reddit without an account again just to explore to see what they want to discover there. And so We thought that was because so much of the how to put it The deleterious effects are embodied in that algorithmic feed. You know that's the dopamine loop, that's the infinite scrolling. And we don't have a history of onnline regulation the way you do. So obviously you've got the Digital Services Act and the Digital Markets Act in the EU context, you've got similar things, you've got much more stringent online safety laws or a history of them than we do. Austrid is approaching online regulation cautiously and methodologically, you know, we have a real opposition amongst the population to digital Dity. People don't like it, they don't trust it. various efforts to have sort of created You know, an Australia card for identity, things like that or even health records, Australia, no thanks. D don't want it So we have not had a history of intervention in this space the way you have. I imagine you can be you've got greater social licence for regulation in the UK than we do. So we did there's a fairly light touch version fully All the onus is on the platforms No child who manages to get themselves on TikTok thirteen is ever going to get a tap on the shoulder from any authority It's the platforms that are the ones who they do the pressure is applied to. Yeah. And then in terms of the list of apps because you have in your legislation, there's a list of of the services that you're talking about Has anything been added to that list s since the ban was introduced So when we started the parliamentary inquiry into this particular topic and we looked at what should be on it, the list was actually much shorter. so it was Facebook, Instagram a snapchit and eggs And then they have subsequently added Rad it rains which and YouTube. Now YouTube was the one that was like, o, careful because this is quite an educational tool That's, you know, the E Safety Cissioner provided advice to say most of the really shocking violent extremist content that young people are saying is via YouTube and that's why it was added. But I think YouTube Kids is still out. so you can have an account on YouTube Kids., guess what? It's a safe social media platform. And again because it's been designed to be yeah Exactly, if you make all these platforms safe, there is no problem. Like Meta, having said to us in our committee, it can't be done, it can't be done, it can't be done, launched Instagram teens. couple of weeks before we finished the inquiry. So supposedly can't be done can be done and it's being done, right? So you know people are getting pushed towards Instagram chs just for a sa of platform. And again, if we create a market in which platforms are safe for kids. We don't need this kind of heavy handed legislation. You know, like Conservative politician, I hate this kind of stuff. I'd much rather be an informed conversation between parents and kids The parents came to us almost uniformly and said, of lost control and COVID spent that up, right? All those months of seeing home. supposedly doing schoolwork on the couch, but actually control al deleting oneself into YouTube or something way more fun, Netflix, whatever it was um all the good habits, you know that I had instilled in my household with my stepkids for balanced, moderated internet and screen based use It all went out the window. So I'm just imagining in a world in eight years time when there's a sort of new normal being reached Austral, would you maybe potentially repeal this legislation if it wasn't needed anymore If we didn't need it, well, hopefully by then my lot are in power and we can have it and if we don't need it, because All platforms are considered to be safe, or they're just naturally age graded, you know and the algorithm knows as well enough to know that personons aren't interested in that stuff. You don't need to give them that extra slightly more extreme or slightly more daring version of what it is they're interested in. you could make better algorithms, you could make safer algorithms. You could, in a good old days, remember two thousand seven Facebook that was just a chronological feed if you your brain stuff You know, that's something that's meant to be available in the European context. I know I've tried to get my phone to give me two thousand seven chronological feed face book because I really would like to know what my friends are doing. inststead I'm I remember that brief period with Instagram in the UK where you'd get to the end of it and it say you're fully up to date now and it was a proper speed bump to stop looking at more stuff of your feed Yeah, I'm so glad you listened to our Bridget Phillipson conversation because it was a very mind expanding chat. And actually Bridget Phillipson is not known for necessarily doing those kind of conversations. So it was a nice treat for me. What did you think about her whole thing about, oh, children are gonna have to get used to that very old fashioned thing of being bored? I know, I don't you love the being bored conversation We have a beautiful set of, because you know, we've passed this reform, some of the ads have come up to my, know polyiana politician feetage because it knows I like these things. kids talking about It wass meant to be kids from the nineties talking about all the fun things they did. and they said What do you mean? like we'd sit in front of a screen for eight hours a day? I got a bike to ride, man. And it's just this beautiful nostalgic reminisence of our childhoods. But I was thinking, you know, I was listening to a podcast and thinking, What did I do when I was little when I was bored? I think I just stomped around the house and said to my mother repeatedly, I am bored. And she goes, whichich I'm sure she liked. Eventually you'll findy something to do. And we did, right? But we had much more Doors lives I hesitate to say I felt that our lives were safer But I'm not sure if that's true. Like if you read the books of Jonathan Hite, Gregl Kanov, Jane Twinky You know, we've moved into this kind of safetyist Obsession and we think The kids are safer on the couch with the device in their hand than they may have been on a bike down at the mall or hanging out of the shops or at the park with their friends. And I don't know which is true. I do know that we are all now as parents incredibly focused on physical threats to our kids who they might be running into down the street, but we don't know who they're running into on the iPad either. You know, ex in the last Parliament, on' the Parliamentary Joint Committee for Intelligence and national security. Well those devices are the number one vector for radicalization and extremism as well,? And so you now comments and the inquiry that we did on these social media. plan it wasn't just about mental health It wasn't just about way kids are spending their time, it was also that this thing is a vector for radicalisation I think we had a Minister for Home Affairs say on the weekend. I'm far more worried about What's coming over the browser than what's coming over the border and without wanting to do his publicity It's a pretty good explanation of where we're at Yeah and So U So anyway, my hope is that progressively We all move towards safer social media, safer online lives Cyipher platforms and that doesn't mean we ban the dark sides of the internet. It just means we go into these places knowing how to stay on this side that interests us and not getting forced fed into something that doesn't interest us. So, this has been so interesting and thank you very much for your time Obviously, the price of entry is that you're now our supporter reporter in Australia So how how is um how is Team Australia doing? Well, we're pumped, right? So our next game is Saturday morning our time at five AM against the USA, right? So we're not missing around at this point time. So but it's really good. It's How to put it We tend not to be much of us as soccer loving as you guys are. And so when it comes around it's like sururprise, broke up. And everyone gets very excited, throw themselves into aushher war moment with Hilda shirt.'m an idiotf for the girls soc team shirt that I have, but You know people really throw themselves into it and so there are lots of parties being organized and we're used to having to get up in the middle of the night to watch something big on the other side of the world. So parties being organized and it's the middle of winter here, remember for Saturday morning. And so everyone's pretty excited. We will see how we go. We never expect to win this thing, but you know It doesn't stop us getting o suck into this sparet. mons. Yeah, that'll be good for on Saturday morning goodood stuff we'll enjoy. Zoe, thank you so much for another mind expanding conversation. It's been a very brainy week this week. And thank you so much for listening to us for such a long time as well. from such a long way away. Well, thank you so much for such a beautiful and important and educative podcast that helps me be really smart in my day job So with Zoe, the Australian MP representing Australia, that means we've now got supporter reporters in Australia. Class in Sweden, Robert in Ecuador, Caroline in Germany. Nathan in the USA, Prima who is double hatting for Iran and Switzerland Basically sums up Lis two sets today on Friday, and Lis herself, who of course represents Canada. So still a fair few countries to go. So if you have a link to any of the others competing in the Summer' World Cup, then you know where to send your pitch As in not a football pitch, but pitch like I'm pitching you something. Anyway. It's newewscast atBc dot co dot uk where you can whatspp us on zero three three zero one two three nine four eight zero. and I look forward to hearing from you. And just a reminder, the next episode of newewscast will be a live bile action special from seven o'clock in the morning on Friday, which you will be able to listen to on the live news stream on BBC Sounds where you will also be able to get the overnight results program. hosted by Laura Kay and Alex F