Politics and Football Intersecting

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Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts Cho. Dor Gunsberg Wendy has sent an email And Wendy says I like many across the political spectrum feel a sense of unease. As we stand at the cliff edge of yet another, change of Prime Minister Henry's here is not at home I do feel a sense of standing on a cliff edge of another prime minister. I feel a slight sense of Bewilderment because yes, Prime ministers have changed an awful lot in the past decade. But it is still shocking that this morning We feel it is likely, I think we can say, perhaps even stronger than that that another change is about to happen U so I think we're used to standing on this particular cliff edge now, but that doesn't make it any less jarring for sure And the reason why we can say more strongly on Sunday morning than we were able to look ahead to yesterday that we may well be on the verge of Kerstarmer going. is because for weeks, Kir Starmer and his allies have been saying, I'll fight if there's a contest. I'll carry on this morning This is what the cabinet mininister, Peter Kyle had to say. These are decisions for Kia to make, and that's why I said that he is taking the time as well as dealings all thesues that Prime Minister deals with over a weekend, a very busy weekend that he's also takaking the time to think through what the political realities are today compared to last week, the week before But I know that he's a Prime minister who always puts country first and he'll be framing every decision that he makes today on behalf of the country in his day to day job as Prime Minister, but also when he thinks about the party going forward, it will always be about what's in the best interests of the country. Now to decode that That is a cabinet minister saying plainly that the Prime Mister might be off. Which means we must get underway with Sunday's newscast Newscast. Newscast from the BBC. Humanity's next great voyage begins. We are in the midst of a rupture. Nostalgia will not bring back the old order. sixty seven Yeah, It's supposed to be me as a doctor. Daddy has also a special connotation.. Thinking about it like a panto helped Do we play music now, what do we do Hello, it's Patd in the studio. It's Lura in the studio. And it's Henry in the studio. It's very nice that you're here with us in person. I mean, who knows there might be some big events for you to report around, so rather than you being at home, it's probably quite good that you're in the office and in the newsroom today. It is helpful. I I think it was a It was pretty clear that things were moving even before Peter Kyle sat down to speak to you, but to have Peter Kyle notot just a cabinet minister, but one of the remaining cabinet ministers who is loyal to Sk Stammer and it's not a given at this point that if you're in the cabinet, you're loyal to Seh Stama to have him being as plain as he was to you evenven if there's a bit of decoding we still need to do I think shows that Sakkist Am's mood has shifted rather a lot since Friday morning after the Make a field b election. I think that's absolutely right. And as I understand it, I think actually the bid really started to change Even on Friday afternoon when Downing Street and some starmer briefers and allies were still sort of saying things like we can beat him. we think that we can do it. We're looking for office space for a leadership campaign It feels like all the air has gone out of that briefing know, those of calls you get from people saying, ah, yes, we're still going to go on. It feels to me like that balloon has just completely popped. Can we go behind the curtain of how we make up So Iank Henry this morning, Henry appeared on radio four and I asked for a briefing from Henry. And you said something about people who are persuadable to back the Prime Minister Yeah, I mean, I was speaking to Well lots of MPs over the weekend, but one that really stuck in my mind yesterday was an MP to was open to backing the Prime Minister, definitely not a burnermite. Like most labour MPs, they've done their pilgrimage to Makefield over the past few weeks for insurance. but Basically you know there was no path for Sakir Stama which didn't involve him rallying this MP. behind his flag and they said I hadn't heard anything not necessarily just from Sakir Stamma, but also from the people who would be att the heart of a Kir Stama leadership campaign that we were being assured that he is revving up to run That just struck me as such a sign that Sure he had done a ring round of Cabinet ministers leadership campaign requires a much broader coalition, even if you didn't necessarily, I mean you didn't actually technically need the nominations of MPs to be a candidate. I just thought, oh, okay Things are moving in one direction here. And sometimes in Westminster, it's the silence that is telling. pauses. So should we listen together to a longer chunk of how Peter Kle presented trying to be diplomatic and not preempt the Prime Minister himself, but yet signal very clearly to everyone was watching that his time might be up Today he's hard at work as he has been every day that I've known him at Z, the Labour Party and Prime Minister He is also making time this weekend to try and reflect on the Political challenges that he faces, our country faces, our party faces. Is it still true that he would fight a leadership challenge? These are decisions for Kia to make, and that's why I said that he is taking the time as well as dealing with all the issues that a Prime Minister deals with over a weekend, a very busy weekend that he's also takaking the time to think through what the political realities are today compared to last week, the week before But I know that he's a Prime minister who always puts country first and he'll be framing every decision that he makes today on behalf of the country in his day to day job as Prime Minister, but also when he thinks about the party going forward, it will always be about what's in the best interests of the country You say he's now reflecting on what to do That is a very clear signal that he is thinking about resigning or spelling out a transition to Andy Berham. I'm just not going I know it's frustrating for your viewers. I know people want for me certainty, but this is a moment where there is clearly political uncertainty. We as a party have got to learn the lessons of where the Conservative partarty failed Time and time again, where there was political uncertainty in their party, they put the chaos onto the country. We are not going to do that. The conversation I had with Kia, the Prime Minister on Friday was a thoughtful conversation. He was very mindful of the interests of the country. and in that conversation, he repeatedly said to me and asked my advice on what I believe the country at this moment in different circumstances. He never once acted in a self interested way and put his own interests at the middle of all of this. and I know that is how he will be acting this weekend. And what was your advice to him? I won't talk about my advice because it was a personal private conversation. Forgive me, Peter. you've just told us what he said to you that he sought your advice that he was thinking about what was right for the country and the party. So forgive me for pressing you to reveal what that advice might be It was a personal private conversation. What I wanted to do because I've seen so much reporting that is completely out of Kilter from the experience that I had and there was just the two of us in the room I wanted to say that he was very thoughtful he was professional and he led through a conversation about the challenges our country faces, about the political issues which are unfolding at the moment and ask my views. So I'm not giving away the details of it, but I am talking about the tone and the content As if you say, Henry, I think newscasters probably are some smart bunch of people. they probably don't really need much decoding there, do they I mean that very clearly is a signal that yoururere Starmer has decided to go And this phrase the best interest of the country Around nearly seventy percent of voters two years ago, did not vote labour. So shifting the deck chairs around the Labour Party and doing a deal to give one man with glasses the role of Prime Minister to another man with glasses. I mean, actually against men with glasses. Well,'m just making I'm trying to do a cartoon paint a cartoon Wellill can we say what the best interests of the country are? Do we think we are now going to stand on a platform saying I want to be Prime Minister for a week two things are true, right? and that they might contradict each other in a sense. It is absolutely plainly true that voters in the last few years have been very cross about the Conservative Party having lots and lots of different prime ministers. People have thought that was a shambles. they've thought that was a bit of a fiasco It's also true The country was never in love with Kir Starmer as a leader. and during his time in office, they have grown to dislike him quite seriously. So therefore, as we were saying yesterday, as the Labour Party, this is of a cost benefit analysis, right? The risk of changing and having what might look shambolic and that people going, I can't believe you're doing it again. You promised that you wouldn't do this versus the cost of carrying on with the Prime Mister that the public don't like fairly or unfairly And it's the thing you oftenar from L labour and peace, isn't it Henry P peopleople go, I don't know why people hate care so much, but you really feel it's kind of vceral I think we can't Reiterate enough that the basic reason this is happening is because labor MPs, many of them think they are going to lose their jobs at the next general election with Sakira Stara as their leader and as the Prime Minister. That is the main dynamic which has driven periodic leadership crises that Sakist Starmer has faced So It may well be true Indeed, some evidence suggests it is true that the public is very frustrated by frequent changes in Prime mininister The public also keeps showing through polling and focus groups and whatever else say like almost every Prime mininister less than the last one. Have I got to get ready for a ecton in Downing Street then I think you might have, yeah Maybe tomorrow night lets just think about the timeline. We think Andy Brandam is going to come to Westinter tomorrow, take seat as Maker Field Your sammer's been in cheheckers this weekend, but he may be back in Downing Street right now. We don't know you'll be back later today or perhaps very early tomorroworning and So Andy Brnam time is up in London The two men are expected to speak somehow, that might be in person. It obviously can't be in downown Street and Burnnham is not going to walk up the street and down the street in front of the cameras. Perhaps they'll a private meeting in Parliament In the Prime Minters office and behind the speaker's chair where people like me used to try and lur around they get moved on by the men in tights because you're not strictly speaking meant to stand there. But if you just happen to be walking past when there was something quite important happening, that's quite useful. I don't want to interrupt the flow too much, but sorry D did you just say moved on by the men in tights? Yes. O. So come welcome to being a parliament reporter. When you're inarliament it's the most natural thing ever someone comes along Why are they like? Why are you wearing tights? Why have you got a sword? Anyway? What are you talking about me No, but the thing is going back to the main thing Yeah so so They're going to speak somehow. they might have a call, they might meet in Parliament, in person, who knows Here Sama should be doing a statement in Parliament about the G seven meeting last week, so he would be in normal times expected to be on his feet in parliament sometime in the afternoon. The Parliamentary Labour Party is due to meet on a Monday night because that's like their staff meeting. they do that every single week Now if Kusan has already concluded that he is going to set out a timetable or maybe even said, you know what I'm going kinda now over to you Andy and see how you like it because there's no love loss between the two of them. M. Maybe it could be a lectern Tomorrow, mayaybe it could be Tuesday morning, which would be the tenth anniversary of the Brexit vote startart your discussion and PhD thesis there U Yeah, I think it's as perfect like even I think more than likely Henry, as you said, that we are going to have some kind of lecture moments in then it's forty eight herrs. Can we talk about the timetable question? Be I actually think very quickly Yes this is going to be The big debate in the Labour Party. So it's the timetable about when Starmer goes, what happens next and will there be any kind of contest? Exactly There are people around Andy Burnham who would like the handover, which they believe there will be. Others might have something to say about that, but they would like the handover to take place around about the time of Labour Party conference.. So last week of September There are other people, not just in the Labour Party more generally, but also in Camp Burnham, who say to me That is preposterous. The idea that you can have a three month interregnum in which goovernment would grind to a halt. but also you would have non stop speculation and briefing about what a Burnham government would look like, which would ultimately to f for Andy Burnham whatnment how his government is framed in a way that might be very hard to rescue should he then become Prime Minister inate September. They say, lookook, it's for the birds. This is going to have to happen within weeks, if not days You know, as happened with David Cameron handing over to Theeresa May, for example. or indeed lves trust over to Rishunu I think that is going to be the big debate in the Labour Party over the next few days timeent case, sorry I was just saying also if they if they wait What they might lose is what you were talking about Pady yesterday is that momentum, the big mo, as it's known in politics, they have huge momentum right now. If they hang around until September, maybe it would give them more time to have proper preparation. their sums out it up, work out exactly what it wants to do. But that momentum You could by then have completely disappeared and maybe even turned into something really negative. Yeah Because every big departmental decision that comes along, including the defence investment Yeah, everyone's going to be saying what does Andy think? So if Kirstar stays in, your point would be there's a second prime minister considered almost as powerful as the first one, so you do it quickly. But if you do it quickly, Andy Berham may not have a policy. He didn't really seem to understand the fiscal rules very well when he was pushed by Victoria Derber. He may not have a chancellor, he may not have a foreign secretary And this is where it comes down to the rub, right? If he's getting in there and there isn't a contest. let's say if it is a quick handover. because there still could be a contest and we'll talk about that in a second But if he gets in there, what is he actually going to do? So one of his supporters, Luke Charters was on the program this morning. And I was very interested that he said, I think quite deliberately that basically Andy Burnham was going to stick to the Lior Manifesto from twenty twenty four That is not the view of everyone in Andy Burnnham's team And he campaigned in Makerfield in a very different way. He his was an anti current status quo annti k starmer, anti w laborer has been doing in the last couple of years So if he suddenly then goes back to saying, ye for stability reasons and to get on with things, I'm basically going to stick to the manifesto that we all stood on in twenty twenty four. And also things have changed so much since that manifesto, this whole question of defense spending is completely transformed from july twenty twenty four. The whole question of economics has completely changed in twenty twenty four because there's been a conflict in the Middle East and oil prices have gone up. This is a big thing. It's not just about timing, but it's about how much is he going to deviate or not if he gets there from what Kir Sam has been up to. And you look at some of the positions that Andy Burnham ended up taking on national questions during the Makerfield campaign For example, He's indicated that he's supportive of Shibanam Maoods policies at the Home Office. Ieed there's a widespread expectation now that if he becomes Prime Minister Sharah Mahammou would remain as homeome Secretary. other positions on various different things. You add them together And some labbour in peace say Well hang on what's the point? You are just changing from a man in his sixties in glasses to a man in his fifties in glasses, Paddy. This is going do your scare.. But then so the thing is and you said there could still be a contest. Yeah. so I think you don't you Yeah, sorry I interrupted. Well, no, I'm just trying to work out you're doing the choreography with me Who decides if there's going to be a contest I think That's largely right now in Kstorma's hands. So if we get to Electoron moment, we don't know if he's going to come out and say I'd like to set a timetable for my moving on from office. This time has come for a new captain. Thank you very much and good night. And the timetable is that I will leave in twenty forty five, or he's going to come out and say I would like to set out a timetable for my departure, but I believe and I've instructed the Labour Party's National Executive Committee to prepare the rules for a leadership contest that will take place over the next six weeks and I'll be gone and I won't stand and I'll be gone by conference Or will he come out and say I'm setting out the reasons why I'm leaving. I'm very sad and I'm very sorry And I expect that my successor in order to get on with the business of government, will be here by the end of this parliamentary session in like three weeks time We don't know which one of those options he will pick. I think the other question is there's going to be a big bonfight inside the Parliamentary Labour Party about whether or not there should be a contest So here Sam will sort of set out the architecture, I suppose. But the POP is also going to have a big say. Well, exactly. I mean if you think back different party different rules, but if you think back to the first of ourour post june twenty third, twenty sixteen prrime mininisterial transitions. David Cameron was meant to have months, but then when it came to it for various different reasons, Thesa May was the only they left standing And therefore, they didn't end up going to the Conservative Party members. and it happened very quickly. Kiss on a could say I'll be gone by conference. Labour could then open nominations and if you have eighty one, you're a candidate But it might be that within a day, Andy Burnham has three hundred MPs who've signed his papers and no one else has stood, or someone else has stood, but they've only got twenty. But didn't West Streeting say he would run Yes. said that was his intention. Yes. But look at Jess Phillips on Laura's program this morning. Who's a West street supp supporter? aig West streeting supporter She was very open to the idea the Parlientary Labour Party might essentially stitch this up behind one candidate. Look at Melanie Ward. Gordon Browns olds in Scotland, another big West treateting supporter speak to our colleagues on pololitics Lve as early as Friday. She talked about them getting in a room and coming to some sort of accommodation. Team streeting have been very quiet. They're adamant that there's no change in his position, that he still wants to run for the leadership reading the mood music Do you read Listening to the myst, EZac It feels less likely to me that he's going to And he is in the mix to be getting a big job in the Burnham camp. So look, there are all sorts of conversations going on about who might get what job if you make it in But I just want to share with you some informed speculation, I'll say. direct I'm not about to read you a text from Andy Burnham, but I am just going to refer to some things that I've been told about some of the discussions about possible Jobs. Okay, here we go. So still a debate around whether or not Edmid Band should be Chancellor. Very interesting that Sharon Graham, powerful boss of the Labour's biggest financial backer, United Union has said that can't happen because ofet zero As of net zero and they're very unhappy about how he's run the energy department. But there's still a debate around that. Andy Burnham is suggested to have made a deal with Ed Miliband some time ago that he could be Chancellor if he tried to force Kar Starmer out in May. Of course E Miliband didn't manage to force Kure Starmer out in May, sobe dry. It didn it dry, but maybe Anabana thinks well, you didn't deliver it so I'm not going to give you the job. Anyways. there's debate about that. As you said, we think Saband Mahmou is pretty much nailed on to stay as homeome seecretary. Lou Hig, of course, was one of the driving forces behind his campaign, former minister All the guessing game is that she is going to go to the cabinet office and be sort of the one who'sort of running things behind the scenes Lisa Andy expected to get a senior job, No surprise about that. Angela Raynar and Wes Streeting also expected to feature prominently And look, this is a bit of a guessing game and but it's an informed guessing game. I must have told that Flur Anderson, the MP for Putney, might be in for a big job, which is an interesting quirk. Who knows? who knows? Can I just contribute to the Ed Milliband side of these things? You know Ed Miliband, obviously a former leader of the Labour Party That means he has Ye' worth of allies and years' worth of enemies I was speaking to a current goovernment minister believes that Andy Burnham is going to be the prrime M minister and would like to stay on under him, but they said to me, Andy makes Ed Miliban the Chancellor He will start off as Prime Minister with a hundred labour MPs furious And they said, Rachel Reeves, Pat McFadden, if they're the back benches Every time there's an ecom statement from the chance to Ed Miniband, they will make his life a misery And there is an interesting question there, which overlaps with the question of policy of how bold break Andy Berham wants to make, not just presentationally but substantively with Sakist Aama's goverment. Do he want to define himself against? essentially the right of the Labour Party to put it slightly over simplistically. Does he want to define himself against those who have remained loyal to Sakir Stara to the end If he does, then Ed Milivan is a good idea. So this is all happening now. These phone calls are being made now Yeah There are lots and lots of conversations going on between current ministers, aspirant ministers, union leaders, Camp Burn. Yeah, And this weekend is all about. J just hang on Before they've even heard from K Starmer. this is what politics Isra? And we don't even know that Kir Star has spoken to Andy Burnham and Andy B. I think he has yet And Andie Burnham's going to get on a train from Manchester to Westminster, a journey freighted with symbolism. He's going to walk into the House of Commons. I think itd probably be Wigam Northwesn. Wigam Northwestern.. And he's going to be filmed every step of the way, isn't he? It's going to be like a sort of slow motion tra I suspect so yeah. I mean, look, who knows.be he'll mayaybe he's already left to try and maybe he' maybe he's in a car driving down. Maybe he's actually wouldn't be at the TB services that's further off. Maybe's some It'sth a diversion. It's worth a diversgion. but you know Maybe maybe he's already come to London to try to avoid abbsolute pandemonium at Houuston tomorrow But you know, we'll see it is tomorrow is going to feel Absolutely Because it is. It is Be it is. I mean, sure, we've changed Prime Misters a lot in recent years, but it is still a massive thing to happen But an especially massive thing to happen Not even two years Since Aakir Stama became what the It slightly depends you count it but the fourth labour leader ever to win a general election majority. That's right. And I think also we should say it depends as well, how you define this question of how many prime miniss we've had in ten years. So I already had a very cross former minister saying You mustn't suggest would be the seventh prrime mininister in ten years because David Cameron was actually Prime Minister all the way from twenty ten to twenty sixteen actually they were suggesting we were trying to say things were more rocky than they were. There'd be six changes of prrime mininister says, Oh no, it would be the seventh change And that is absolutely extraordinary and it's also not cost free. So one of the elements that we were discussing on the programme this morning was with the Samy Case. who was the Cabinet seecretary for basically for all of them, for Boris Johnson, for Rishi Sunak for Liz Trus, and then for Kir Stmer And he said, very plainly and clearly that there is a cost to this because the financial markets are already charging us more to borrow because of instability in politics He said there's a cost as well because important decisions just don't get made because yout who the minister is, the decision maker is unclear and That's something that Politicians love talking about power They love talking about who's up and down. so do we, let's face it But the cost of this in financial ands of Policy times disruption are real. They're real. Does Kar Starak got a job in Andy Bernam's government Well there's no love lost between them. I mean, there've been some suggestions we'll make him foreign seecretary because he's good at the stuff on the world stage. I think that their relationship is going to be pretty curdled by all of this. There's a little wrinkle because always in politics, people have long memories And in twenty fifteen, as a bright eyed new MP, Kir Starmer backed Andy Burnham to become the Labour lor In twenty twenty, even though it looked like your stama was going to win pretty straightforwardly Andy Brnam only backed him at the very last minute So there is a There are troubled waters under the bridge here and I find it hard to see that Kir Stara would be up for it, but look, you never know. and in a way it would be a it would be a neat thing, would it not? But then what do you do with Vt Cooper, who, you know, if he wants to create stability, maybe leave Et cooperers for second, I don't know. There is an interesting discussion definitely taking place at certain levels. in the Labour Party about the role of foreign Secretary under a Burnham government, because Foreign affairs has so dominated Sakistanama's time as Prime Minister, unavoidably so given what's going on in the world. But there are people who say, look, that is not Andy Burnham's particular field of interest. If he is going to become lead of the Labour Party and Prim Minister on a mandate to transform the domestic politics of the Labour Party, then it is just not a good use of his time and his talents I just keep hearing people say The Tories really found a way to make this work at the end with David Cameron as foreign Secretary, because visiting prrime ministers from sort of More minor nations would be happy to meet David Cameron, that would be respectful, and Rishi Sunak didn't have to take two hours out of his day to go and sit down with a prime minister from a slightly irrelevant country No But I mean that's just the reality of it, right? don't I't I haven't come up with they saw I haven't named a particular country, right? Clearly some are irrelevant to the UK, at least in relative. So who is that person who Andy Burnham could, if he buys that argument, put in charge of his foreign affairs and . Two people. I don't think it's necessarily informed speculation, but I don't think's completely uninformed speculation, say to me. Well Perhaps it might not just be Ed Milliband from the Milliband family in line for I be been in his current job quite a long time. D Miband, he's been there for a while. But one extraordinary thing I mean, I know think this is going to happen, but just let's just say one extraordinary thing, The twenty ten Labour Leadership election was sixteen years ago. Ed Millivant, David Millivant, Andy Burnham Where Ed Bulls and Dian Abber? You just need them for the complete set. So that means he'd have to go into the House of Lords. David Will. Davidameron did. Davidamon it worked. So the answer to the question, would Kiss Aarmer get a job is probably Kiss Amer wouldn't take a job. I think I don't know. I don't know, but it would seem surprising because there is bad blood between the two of them. However, Kir Summer is somebody who has allies would say that he is principally drivenven by Juty and wanting to serve the country. So look, if he was asked to be Foreign Secretary Maybe he would go for it because else is also what else is he going to do apart from, you know, maybe want to disappear for a while and read books and breathe fresh air you know, hang out with his family But you know, he's a man in his early sixties He's somebody of course who's managed to get to the highest office in the land. He's somebody with great capabilities and a huge range of experience. so he just is he going to go to the to the back benches? But I think it's It's hard to see, but look, stranger things have happened in the last ten years in this country. We just don't know. The UK is hosting just by a quirk of rotation. The G twenty next year and the G seven the year after that, Th are massive moments for the UK on the world stage Prime Minister whoever that may be at that point is going to want a really savvy, experienced and influential team around them to handle this detail, I now want to put myself in the position of being a member of another political party in the House of Commons. And I don't have to go very far back, do I to be reminded that Labour expressly told me they weren't going to do this because they said it was precisely because the Cervatives had done this that we needed to end the chaos. We needed to vote for someone good manager who was to wasn't going to sell it on charisma. They weren't going to do personality changes in Downing Street. So if you're from all of the other political parties and you see this unfold this week You're going to be very, very vocal indeed, are you not? You're going to have a lot to say about what labour's up to. You're going to have a lot of reason to do mockery, which is a big part of politics And you're going to have lots of reasons to chuck jibes around like two year care And it's going to be really fun politically for the opposition parties for a while. He's widely recognized as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballondor Award five times. He's the all time leading goal scorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about, yet? That's right, goodood bad billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of icon Christiano Ronaldo. That's good bad billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts period though It's completely unknown as to how it progresses. So Andy Burnham is someone who the public like more a lot more than they do a Kar Starmer therefore, in one sense That makes him automatically a tougher opponent That said. We've got no idea if he gets into number ten if he's going to run an effective administration or not. We've got absolutely no idea. So I think in the kind of short term, yeah, the opposition parties have got lots and lots of ammunition to chuck around, of course they do Once we get past a couple of months, if indeed Burnnam is in charge I think we just do not know how it's going to unfold. And so we were talking about yesterday, Paddy, that conversation I had with somebody in a senior position in government. It's a bit of a sort of thought experiment. The government has not been performing well in some areas. Of course, they would say they've got waiting lists down, immigration has come down and all those things. But the public thinks that the government has not been effective. If you basically change not very much about the government's performance, but you have a much more charismatic, liable person at the top Does that, or does that not change how the public feels? about those who represent them Maybe it does. Maybe people feel a bit more cheered up because you have a different person who comes along and talks about hope and talks about optimism and doesn't wear a shirt and tie all the time I want to know when he is going to wear a shirt and tie though if he ends up walking into down his street this week. Is he going to do it in a black t shirt? No, you'll have to wear a shirt and tie But willill it? I don't know. Well Iazell Gazelles at the lectern. The person who knows the least in the room is going to give the strongest answer. Yes. I think you're going to be Prime Minister you've got to put a tie on I do think the answer to that is yes. And we willll be back proving when I'm wrong when he does it in I think you're right. I'm just intrigued to what Do the centrist that garb come off and the head teacher guarb go on. Well, know I don't know quite how quickly it happens, but when he's talked about his prrime Minister he's going to have a t. That's be my push at your answer. I think'mctive I have no idea, but I think I'm instinctively team Paddy on this. I think I think has the traditionalist small season. We're wearing the clak to. You and me have actually come here today wearing exactly the same shirt. I'm criticising myself, not you, Paddy when I say Andby Bernam should not take fashion advice. F that you and me? No, no, exactly. And I just want to inject this non specialist political view we've beenking about postics everyhere for about three years? No. I just Oh ye, I don't know anything. No I just I take what you say and repeat it back to. But the thing is it's just there is a human there's a family in this.. There's a human being in this. Can you imagine them being in cheheckers this weekend? The two of them wafting around those sixteenth century windows, aery nice swimming pool just thinking What do we do? We're going Go I mean, a man's life and a family's whole life changing really because of the fact that the club he's part of have turned on him And the other way, Andy Barnam and his wife and kids have also been on a mini break this weekend somewhere in a mystery location What's on their mind, their lives are about to change in all sorts of profound ways if his plan comes off It is brrutal human And as we were discussing on radio four earlier Paddy this is a prime Minister, a man professional life. been one of constant achievement at every turn. I mean, he gets mocked for the son of a toolmaker thing, but the point he was really trying to make is Though I'm a knight of the British Empire Though I'm a former director of public prorosecutions I didn't start off posh That's really the point he's been trying to make that he's clawed his way up to the pinnacle of the British establishment as Pime Minister. won an extraordinary general election victory five years after Labour's worst defeats And then within two years, this is happening to him. It is It is extraordinary and public personal and professional failure. And that is a brutal thing for him to happen to him and also on his family I think though he is very protective of his family, He's actually more open than some other prime ministers about how Ccerertainty is about the burden that he's placed on his family. I remember interviewing him in actually in Kieiv about a year into his time in office. And I said to him, if you could go back a year ago and just before the exit poll and tell yourself one thing, what would it be And I thought it'd say something about welfare or something about foreign policy. And he said, I'd tell myself Don't watch the exit poll with your kids I was like, what? And basically he said, L, I hadn't thought about how difficult that moment would be for them of the confirmation I Kiss Aa I am going to become Prime Minister and that their lives are going to change I just think it is very hard on a human level to quite process quite how miserable this weekend would have been for the whole Starmer familyily, I'm sure Were recording at twelve minut is past eleven on Sunday All sorts of things could happen I think we are reading the runes We're normally at this point, Henry's at home and we say, Henry, what should we look out for in this week? So that's actually been the that's been the whole newsclub. England' seconde World Cup group game of Scotland's third. E than that, not much going on is there? Not much going on. By the way And we stop having political crises during international football tournaments. It is an absolute nuisance Euro twenty twenty four was ruined for me by the general election. Euro twenty sixteen was during the Brexit referendum Come on guys. Are you loving the Wor Cup? Because Well I am, but I don't think I'm going to be watching a lot of it this coming week? Well, you can, you can stay up. I stayed up to watch Laura's Pitical show the morning election. But there's a lot of love today on Radio four for the fact that the World Cup throws up all these marvelous moments a forty year old in goal for a tinyiationazer. And even people who aren't really meant to love football and love the love that's around, you know It's a complete contrast. of It's a new ssite. It's like fair weather sports fans, Is that I'll watch the end of any big tournament over everything Iort toittdally winks through or Wimbon or the World Cup fame. I mean the rest of are absolutely not a scooy doo. Tournaments are fun. A actuallyually in the country, we've got people obsessing about the politics and obsessing about the football. and then some people are in the middle. And I guess a way of drawing this all together neatly that I've just thought of is When the World Cup final features England in three or four weeks in New York or New Jersey, I think technically