Legacy and Future of Teen Dramas

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So when I got my hands on your book, I like flew through it. It is written so well. It is so fun. Thank you. Anyone who's a fan will love this book and I'll make sure to link it in our show notes. Everybody who loves gossip Girls should check it out. Ten TV should check it out, Millennial nostalgia, really anybody who is alive. twenty twenty thousand seven and twenty twelve I love this box. Absolutely, especially if you were a teenager during those timees. Yes. Yes So I wanted to start with a this or that with gossip, girl. 'use I need to pick your brain a little bit with the fandom before we go further Blair or Serena, Ona Ooh, okay. Chuck ornate Dan and Serena or Dan and Blair Dan and Blair. I am so happy you said that becausecause in your book, you gave Dare a little bit of shit and I was like, I loved them. Yeah Yeah, we talk about that, but yeah Waldor fashion or Vander Woodson fashion? Vander Woodson Georgina Sparks or Juliette Sharp? Oh God, Georgina Would you rather attend a gossip girl party or read every blast before everyone else does? Read every blast. that Nate's bangs or Chuck scarves. Bs XO XO gossip girl or go piss girl Go piss girl. Absolutely Rufus and Lily or Eleanor and Cyrus? Oh, Eleanor and Cyrus And then this is the final one, watching weekly in the two thousands or binge watching on Netflix. Weekly, always Listen, we're pretty much on the same page and I'm so excited because I think there's something so special. about like a show where you're like, okay, it's eight PM on a Tuesday and I have gossip girl to look forward to. Yes. abbsolutely. And you watched live Yes, with the caveat that. I was studying abroad at the time. So my roommate in London and I would download on iTune store. every episode and sometimes it would take days because the WiFi would keep dropping So we were watching live, but everybody already seen the episode probably two or three days before because we just couldn't get enough juice to download the entire gigabyte episode on the Apple Store. But yeah, I actually just wrote something about this sort of on my suback about how there's no like grand viewing anymore that like nobody tunes in the same thing the same time except unless it's like the Super Bowl or something. And I kind of think they were like we missed that a little bit. Like you just binge at your own leisure and You really don't get like cool cultural moments because we don't we don't really watch things weekly anymore Totally onene of the themes of this podcast is I miss monoculture. Like I miss when seventeen million people would watch Kelly Clarkson win American Idol. one hundred percent. Like every toilet in America flushes at the same time during like a mash finale because everybody couldn't miss a moment of that And I think that it's actually to the detriment of people who are younger than we are. There's not as much cultural literacy now and it's like sort of like, I'm always like open the schools, but Cable TV and this sort of monoculture idea like gave us as millennials that because like you could just you just put the TV on and like I had to watch whatever was there. It wasn't like we could pick So like really gained a lot of cultural knowledge just by osmosis because it was like, well, if I'm going to watch Nick at Night, I have to watch everything. those shows are from the fifties to the at that time the eighties. So like you just got to know things and you just pick them up Totally like in fourth grade, one of my favorite shows was Fs of Life because of Nick at Night. Yeah, I love taxi. Like taxis are really weird ones. L like Jud Hirsh and I and Danny Devito hanging out and Andy Kauman But that was the one. I like that one like and bewitched and and you know, I watched I love the eighties and I love the nineties and then just like even though these things as quick cultural references that I feel like collapsse when we kind of got streaming Totally, another thing I've pushed for is Is of the two thousands so we can teach the youth I listen, anybody who's listening to this, if you need somebody, you have two people right here who can do actually we could probably do the whole thing. justust let us talk about every single episode, VH one because we are ready I have bet traaying my whole life for this actually And that's the pitch. There it is. we need it. We need it. We needed it yesterday Before we get into gossip Girl, I have to ask you about Jeopardy, which is one of my all time favorite shows Can you explain the audition process to get on that show? 'cause I'll never make it so Yeahah, I've been on Jeopardy twice, not because I won spoiler alert, but because I lost twice. I got asked back. I did really well the first time and then got asked back for second chance. So I lost l too, don't wor. But pre pandemic, the audition process was that they would run the audition process like a few times a year. you'd take a test online, then they would call you and you would go to like these big quite like American Idol Esc Auditions. you had to be invited But then you would like sit in a big room with people and take another test and sort of interview on camera to make sure I guess that like you weren't in a block of wood that you would look at on like look Okay on camera. And I did that a few times. And then post pandemic it turned to Zoom and you just take the anytime test. You could take it right now as you're listening to this if you want to be on jeopardy. And then they get in touch with you and you do a Zoom call with a bunch of other people and it's the same process. You take another test And then they say, Hey, you're in the contestant pool for, I think it's like eighteen months. So they could call you at any time within eighteen months. I got an email or a phone call from the producers about a month before they wanted me in LA So I said to my husband, guuess what? We're going on vacation. You have to pay your way there So you have to make it to Culver City to Sony pictures. So I imagine that could be difficult for people because like obviously like, mean, I'm in New York. So like you have to pick up and go across the country But yeah, then you show up and you're like ready to play. If they invite you back, though like I got invited for second chance, they will put you up and they pay for your flight and stuff like that. But it was such a fun experience. I found myself like once I got on the stage, you practice a lot on the stage because The hardest part is not the knowledge, it's the buzzing because you Right? So we literally like they just like cycle the contestants for the day throughow and like you just this on stage. and once I hit the stage, I was like calm And it was like fine. except there was one point in my first episode where I had the chance for a true daily double. and I swear that you could like I was like, can the mic hear my heart pounding right now? but it was super fun. Like I just felt super ready and I didn't win, but like it was still a really, really fun experience. And now I'm friends with everybody like all the former contestants, There's a big community of us. We play online quiz leagues together constantly talking and chatting and quizzing each other on more stuff Its so fun, how did you prepare for it? didn't reallyally. There are two schools of thought. Well, there are three. One is like you prepare 'cause of like the James, I can't think his name out Holzinger. you're like focus on the wagering and trying to figure out how to pick pieces off the board. I'm old school, so I didn't really go about it like that. But then some people do flash cards and they still do, they do a lot of flashies. And then I just kind of was like, well I know what I know at this point. There are things I knew I was not going to pick up like I was not going to suddenly be good to physics. I was going to be on jeopardy But did I like brush up on some of the Bible stories and stuff for my recollection? Yeah, 'cause that st's kind of always on there. I like needed a little Greek mythology that kind of stuff But I hate to say that I didn't really prepare. I don't want to sound like a jerk and say like, well, I'm so ready for jeopardy that I knew everything, but it's sort of hard to know what they're going to ask you Totally Totally. Well, thank you for indulging in my jeopardy. I really appreciate that. And now. I'm so excited to talk about gossip girl. I mean For people who may not know your work yet, what made you want to write an entire gossip girl book? I can imagine, but I would just love to hear you talk about it Yeah, I love TV since The beginning The TV was always on in my house when my sister and I would be playing, you know, poolypockets or whatever. I consumed a lot of a lot of media in different ways. And so I grew up like kind of with my eye always I was always really interested in pop culture and media and how it like affects culture at large. Like even we were talking about about like, Nic it Knight and all those other things likeike there we grew up in those times of monoculture. and I always thought that was fascinating And then I had pitched during the pandemic a book. I love teen television too. the OC is one of my ultimate favorites and Wry Hill and all those. And I pitched during the pandemic a book that was actually about the OC Wry Hill goss have growown pretty little liars. and that kind of didn't go anywhere because it was the time period in which all of the people who like us, the stars were at home sitting there waiting for this to be over, and they were all doing your podcast So it was like they were giving the milk away for face and nobody Nobody wanted to buy the book at that moment. So afterwards, I kind of focused on Gossip girl because I felt gossip girl and I still feel the gossip girl was incredibly prescient to like the times that we're living in now Um They're, you know, like for all this talk, and I don't know how much of it its internet speak, but like You know, Gen Z and Jen Alpha are like incredibly afraid of being cringe and they don't dance and they don't sing and they don't have sex or drink or this because they're like incredibly afraid of being perceived because somebody has always been watching them since the beginning of their adolescence. I didn't grow up with a camera phone, so I don't feel like that. But goossip Girl was the show that was like, hey, this thing, big brother This Owellian thing has always been watching you and spilling dirt on you. And that's like the really real reality we live in now And I also was always fascinated by the way that gossip gl kind of used social media I remember? especially being in London where the fashion was like a little bit further ahead of America's when at the show premiered and it was like red tights instantly headbands instantly because like you could like you could very, very quickly find those things in stores because everybody was talking about them. And then when I got home a few months later, after I was abroad, it was the same thing. like The music came Like they use the social media to be like, oh, I love that song. I want those headbands. I want to look like this. I want sten his hair, like that kind of thing So it was really the only show the time to combine all those things, and that's really why it caught fire Yeah, do you think that that's what makes it different than team dramas at that point too because it was a little more risque, but it was also adding in the use of cell phones and very early social media Absolutely. I think yeah, it was adult, but it also was smart and like knew its audience. It didn't it wasn't I think the problem with the reboot actually was that it was like too smart and too focused and like didn't know how to poke fun at itself when like The original show always knew what it was and what it stood for and like that it was supposed to be fun you know, these are very incredibly rich people and like It's not that deep really. And none of the other shows, I think, not until like pretty little liars when you had A watching everybody and texting the girls and whatever, did a show ever really use phones like that? L it was always like a side note. And the OC like that wasn't happening. They were getting phone calls, but they were interacting in real life and n on gossip girl It really, it wasn't fifty fifty, but it pushed it to way more everybody It was online Totally, totally. And that's a really good point. I feel like for the reboot, they tried to over correct Yeah the things that they kind of missed in the first part or in the original Gosssip Girl. But at the end of the day, I didn't watch Gossip Girl because they were good people. I watched Gossip Girl because I couldn't even imagine this like ultra wealthy towards acting like adults. Yeah. Eactly. And's I think I can't think of what I think it was in New York magazine There there was a review for a play I was reading and it was like, I think it's Becky Shaw, which is, I think nominated for some twenties. It's out now. But like the argument was that like this play in this instance and this is what I feel like with the reboot. Is that it's like almost so not politically correct, but like afraid of offending things. So like people are mean, but they're like not that mean and they like always have a conscience. And like that was kind of what the reboot was like is like these kids were like aware of their class. issues and their racial issues and all these other things and the dynamics that go along with that, Whas like in the first goossip girl it was like Yeah, we're rich and we're hot and we're just really it was like dynasty. like that's what you watch Dynasty for. Like I'm not saying that like there really are no people of color in the first Asssip girl. There are no LGBT characters except really for Eric. like All those things are wrong But like Like you said, they over cororrected on the other side and it was like unwatchable. And also incredibly dark from like a cinematography level. Like I that it's like a Christopher Nolan movie. I was like, you can't even see like I was like squinting at this screen. was like You know, you have it just was night and day, honestly. And the teacher being gossip girl, that really was a problem for me. I'm like, teachers should not be gossip girl. Yeah. like Yeah, no. like you go back to things like critical liars and you're like, Ohh, a teenagerss having an affair over fits. And we're like, that's wrong. And in two thousand seven, we say that's wrong or twenty ten or whatever And now they bring it back in twenty twenty one. And I was like, hh about this like it completely changes the power dynamic and I don't Especially after the like the, I mean, I know that the teacher was a woman, but like Especially after me too and like Epstein and all these things coming out. I'm like, I don't think we should be talking about young women like on this capacity. I think we can we can knock this out, thank you. I totally agree. I'm like, let it be a delusional teenager and just leave it at that. you know? Yeah. absolutely So the original gossip girl, it premiered kind of right as like celebrity blogs like Pz Hilton were exploding maybe a year or two after. But do you think That was a big part of the success of Gossip Girl. Do you think it went hand in hand I think so because we were at this inflection point in celebrity culture where everybody just was like so hungry for more. And the paparazzi culture in Hollywood really took a dive when celebrities were able to launch themselves on social media because they controlled the medum then and they controlled the pictures and the paparazzi stuff. like You can I mean, you can stand in the grass or somewhere with a long range film lens, but like whoever it was could just be like, oh, here's picture my wedding and it bls everything into the bits. But like two thousand seven was like when Brittney Spears was attacking a car with an umbrella. So it's like peeak paparazzi, peak Frenzy yout know everything. Gawker had just started and like the gker idea of gaker stockker and like outing celebrities being at restaurants in New York and it was the sort of crazy frenetic energy where like people demanded celebrities' time and like they deserved it, really. Yeah which I guess we kind of have today in a different way, like but they can control a little bit more of the medium because they can be on social and just like drop their own statements and stuff. Totally, We hate a notes app statement at this point in twenty twenty six. Eough I w to know less about everyone actually. That's where I'm at Well kind of. Jumping from that, you know, one thing that you highlighted in the book and I was so happy is the interview with Blake where she talks about how the writers would kind of mesh their real lives into gossip girl How do you feel about that now being older and kind of watching the show? Be all of the CW kind of did that. One Tree Hill did it, Gossip Girl other show nine hundred two one zo did it the reboot vampire diaries, but I guess looking back, how do you feel about that? Like do you think that that kind of blurs the lines a little too much Oh yeah, I don' think Sophia Bush can do an interview even now without asking about getting asked about being married to Chad Michael Murray toterally twenty minutes. Like they were they were nineteen years old. were like something something crazy. I think when you grow up being a girl and adolescent girl in the two thousands, you start to recognize all these really toxic patterns that were happening at the time and especially with young women, the exploitative nature of reality TV and that kind of stuff was happening post coming out a little bit about the show pretty wild with Alexis Neyers and watching that back and being like, oh, like and even the Bachelor and being like, uh and like you know, we were really like selling all of these young people out to dry or hanging them out to dry, I should say for ratings. And like the producers know that and like reality TV producers know that and the writers and stuff. So and sort of an interesting ge like the edge of a blade to walk because Yeah, we want to watch they want ratings and they want TV, people to tune in and But at what cost? L, you know, these are still people with feelings and we didn't have the same discussions on like mental health and things like that as back then as we do now. So like, you know, Taylor Mompson talks a lot about has talked a lot in interviews playing Jenny and then they like people were assuming that she was Jenny. and that really bothered her because she was such the polar opposite of Jenny Humphrey. And then Eric Damon sort of started dressing her more like they had an understanding to be like, oh, we're going to like sort of move this over and transform her into who you are. And she felt much more at ease with that because it was like running down the street and people are screaming Jenny H hum free at me. and that like for a fifteen year old girl is really unsettled Totally I mean, I'll be totally honest. It took me a long time to like pembadly because of how much I disliked Dan Yeah Yeah. And now with he's with he's Joe on you and it's like, oh, this is just one pipeline that he can't get out of That's such a good point. Yeah. It's actually an extension of being Dan Humphrey to Joe, what's his face on you is like actually the same character just escalated Just like tries not to be nice You know, he's kind of aware of what's going on. Stccer and then it escalates into like murder. That's really what it comes down to At least Dan didn't murder people that we know of. Yeah. so far Do you think Gossip Girl helped create modern influencer aesthetic before influencers were even a thing? Because I kind of see this show as like the blueprint of influencing. and kind of like Duois, you know, how people talk about celebrities now feels very gossip girl and everyone has a camera to send pictures or tips to Duois Yeah, or even like crazy Days and nights, which doesn't exist anywhere. I don't think. Laney. She has a substack now, so she's still doing the people don't really do blind items anywhere Ted casts a blankets. likeike they don't really do blind items anymore. But yeah, I think there's definitely something to that. Serena, I think is like the ultimate influencer. She could be like the first one, you know She was fourteen years old when they started taking photos of her and she just was like the it girl. It's like it's sort of akin to like if We had social media maybe or the same social media then like maybe ten years before, likeike Tinsley Mortimer would have been in the same same realm there or even like Olivia Palermo. But yeah, absolutely. they they would have been dropping affiliate links left and right Definitely I guess they did that in the reboot a bit. They were able to highlight it Was there anything you discovered while researching this book that like really shocked you when you couldn't believe That shocked me. I think I was really interested in the casting And who ended up in what role and that sort of thing, Jessica Zor like who played Vanessa, like met Josh Wartz at a barbecue and then was like, you want to be on the show? L that kind of like that sort of thing. Chuck almost didn't make it because his visa was bad or not approved yet. Alden Eren Reich, I think his name is. He was Hu Solo. He's on Broadway now. Oh yeah. I think he's nominated for a Tony actually, which is I talk you a lot about Broadway today, but the Tony' are in two weeks U was the original choice to play Dan. and his parents were like We don't know. and then the people at the production we're like, he's too short to Sanx like. And then they picked Pen and then Penn was like, I can't do another pilot season. Like I can't do this. And then somebody canissed them and there we go. They promised Lake Libly that like she would be able to go to college in the middle of filming and she thought that was going happen. I'm like But when you're eighteen, yeah. That sounds like something that could happen. They were like, we can't put it in writing. but We said you can go to Colombia. But yeah, I think it's funny how all these casts come together. And then also like how talented the casting directors were, David Radport was at creating this chemistry with them. like It's not easy that all these people gel like that Mm the non judging breakfast club We're not gental One thing that I love that you highlighted so much was the promotion of the show, how they made sure to really put like scandalous photos with like OMG over it. How do you think that changed how people market teen shows to this day Gossel Girl just pushed the off. I think it was one of the smartest things they did was to take the tev the parents television council or whatever a group is called, We're so incensed that there is something remotely scandalous on at nine PM that they use their that should use their best criticisms against them. I mean, like as as Fodder And I think that was kind of the best thing. I'm trying to think like what other TV shows do marketing in the same way. I mean, in two thousand seven, we selled billboards and stuff. So like I feel like there's much more digital marketing now. But even if you look at Euphoria like They would be doing the same kind of stuff that gossipl or they're doing the same kind of stuff that gossip worldl did because gossip Rl did it. It'sunchy. I would say the like Euphoria goes into the Ronunchy and not just risque, but gossip Girl pushed the envelope as far as what you could use and what you should use when it comes to marketing How do you feel when you watch the pilot? Can you remember your first thoughts of gossip girl U the opening whistles of Peter Bjorn and John's young folks. It was like full body chills And I was like, what is this? 'causeuse I didn't read the books. Like I was Yeah, I had no idea. It was not my series And then it was like Blake's face on the train and you're like, what is this And I mean, I'm from the New York area. like I was so familiar with the city and I just we were hooked instantly. Like I remember watching with my roommate and we were like, oh yeah, every week This is happening From lashes for days with the viral liquid Lash extxtensions mascara to awakening your eyes with lift and color from the brilliant eye brightener. Thrive Cosmetics is the go to when you want to amplify your everyday look Plus, every product is one hundred percent vegan, cruelty free, and made with clean skin loving ingredients that work with your skin. And for every product purchased, Thrive Cosmetics donates to help communities thrive. So every time you use your favorite Thrive Cosmetics product, you're helping communities you care about too. Amplify your everyday. Go to thrivecosmetics dot com slash shine twenty six for an exclusive offer twenty percent off your first order Thrive Cosmetics CAUSE METS d. com slash shine twenty six. While every other channel is fighting for your customers' attention, podcasts are where they've already given it No one accidentally listens to a podcast for forty five minutes. They choose to be here. They trust the voice in their ears, and when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising. It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. ACast gives you that trust at scale. Digital precision, host read authenticity, and performance data that proves it worked Don't fight for attention. buuy it with ACast. Learn more by visiting Acast. com slash advertise Yeah, I felt the same. It just felt so different because I did watch the OC. I watched Wandrey Hill, Friday Night Lights And this just felt like an adult show on the CW, which was insane Yeah. and and There's something to be said with how hard Stephanie Savage the creator fought to have it filmed in New York Like it's expensive too to not do things on a sound stage And she basically told the network, like, we're going to do this because you can always tell when it's not city. Like you can tell when it's not really New York. Like you're gonna to tell me how I met your mother' set looks like New York City. if you' everved New Yorkity? No, or like Yilmore girls like the couple times that they would be in Mhattan Absolutely not So I think that like they had that vibe and the grittiness, which I hate when people talk about New York like that, but like the energy of the city like really is not to be like a sex in the city character, but it's like the fifth character or like the sixth character because It doesn't look like anything else. It didn't look like anything else from a visual level that we had had at that point Were you a Serena girl right from the start? Yeah Absolutely. because you know, well like the blonde hair, the wavy hair, I wasn't wearing like the trapezoidal like cutouts and like arige dresses that she had. But I I don't know that I identified with her on a personal level, but I was like, oh, she has pretty hair and those like knee high sweet boots that she had on. I bought a pair at Prim Mark in Piccadilly Circus in London for like ten pounds and absolutely wore the crap out of them thinking that I looked like her on the streets of London. Yeah, even I had like over the knee boots, which sounds insane if you see, I'm always in jeans in a t shirt, but I was like, maybe I could rock it Yeah. Yeah. and Blaair was always, I was always like a little undone in terms of I never like that buttoned up and Blaair was like the headbands and the this and that and the skirts and that like wasn't really it's still not my vibe. I think one of my hottest takes is Georggina Sparks is my favorite character. I think she was the most fun character on Gossip Girl side of Srena, Wh which character did you enjoy watching the most? Oh, I would say that Georgina's really up there. You know like when you asked me Juliet or Georggina, I was like, they're not even in the same like. They're not even the same solar system. Like the Julian, you could leave that storyline. No offense to Katie Cassidy, who's I'm sure delightful, but like, you could leave That didn't even need to happen ever. I never needed to know anything about Julet Sharp. But Georggina and her chaos agent and that like Michelle Trachtenberg did such a wonderful job with that character, just like, it has to be fun to play the slightly off kilter. rich girl who comes in and tries to ruin everybody's lives and then ends up fixing them. like I love her She just wanted to be involved, really. Yeah, she had Fo, that's why. And she would have just said so. would have like it would have been a much shorter show, but like she just wanted to hang out and that's okay Exactly. Also going back to Juliette, I think a lot of Nate's love interests could have kind of never showed up if we're being at saage. I know That's another one, right? You look back and you're like, what was that? She was really young and I remember too. I read about that. L the age differences and some of the gaps were like I don't think so. Yeah, theyatess one true pairring is probably Serena, honestly They're like two pretty golden retrivers that should have just been like rich and gotten married and like, you know went to the Hamptons The fact that Dan and Serena ended up together is like Stockholm syyndrome Yeah of him being gossip girl. So like I think that Nate should have just been with Serena and like Vaness was like kind of a close second. But that was it. I don't recognize. And even like Madin, Amx, like Katherine married woman. I'm like maybe that is a third, but that's it. Like we can't like I pick the married woman, older woman out of anybody else for the the most part Listen, if we had more time, I could go on and on about why I love Nayan Serena, but I will save everyone that. One thing I did want to say I loved was your chapter about Chuck and Blair Because everyone loves to romanticize them and I love to remind people how terrible Chuck is. Were you nervous to write that chapter? just because the fandom is like still pretty strong when it comes to them? I haven't gotten any hate mail yet. But after this comes out, maybe they'll be like, Hey, I didn't read that chapter yet and they'll come at me. No because Like I said before, we grew up in this very specific time. And then when you watch these things back, we have to say it's not okay. like the way that I can't rationalize and think that it's okay that like how abusive he was to her in any context. And it's not a good. And I know it's dramatized and whatever, but like it's not good for our young people or anybody in relationships to be like, oh, that's what love is and that's what love looks like, especially now as a married woman in a long term relationship. I was like, yeah, again We are not hotel owners and like fashion heiresses. but Like my life and love story does not look like that, and nor should anybody' look like that and The insistence by production and the writers too that like, Blaire was never in any harm and Blaair always felt safe and like there's one interview in the book. there wass like, oh, we spoke to Layon about it and she knew that like Blaair would be okay. It' like no, like this is abusive across the board. I don't know how they ended up being the like the most shaped couple of this show But I was not worried about writing it because I feel so strongly that they are the worst couple Yeah. One of the worst couples and that they should never have ended up together. Did you feel that way watching it too in real time? Can you remember I think at the beginning like the first couple well, the first season is like The relationships fine in my eyes. and then like when they first like consummate their relationship in the limo and all these things with like these big romantic stories. I think when I was younger, I probably thought less of it And now as an old lady, I come back and I'm like, oh no, like I wouldn't want anybody younger than me to watch that and be like, that's what a relationship is He sold me for a hotel chain As millennials, we were really told toxic relationships were romantic. likeike with Laguna Beach, I've obviously rewatched the Hills a million times. And in real time, I was like, Justin Bobby and Andreina should figure it out and make it. You know what I mean? And I feel like a lot of people thought that way about Chuck and Blair and I thought that until he sold her for a hotel And then he like punches the glass and then Beautifully cut her cheek and she's like, u L no, no. like Blire, you can literally date anybody. She literally nabbed a prince, which is't work out. like multiple princes actually, a lord. Marcus was a lord. like you could go out and be Pincess Grace basically Yeah. So what do you wasting your time And what's funny about Dan and Blair is I have never rewatched Gossip Girl past season three. Season three is kind of my cutoff Dully I feel like I only liked Dan and Blaair together 'cause in my opinion, they were some of the best actors on the show. And I was like, just have them do more scenes together, please. They play off each other so well. Yeah, I agree. And I think that Dan was sort of like Blaair's intellectual way. N that Serena was stupid because I don't think that she is she is as a character. but like they just weren't matched like Dan and Serena. I think Dan and Blaair had that like tip for tap thing a lot better and the actors had chemistry and like you said, they were Late's just probably the best actor on the show. and I feel like nobody really recognizes that I agree. Yeah I'm very justice for Lateon Easter. I will watch Country Strong and I will stream the girls Go Bad and I will stream her album until the end of time. watch her new show? So I hat maybe I'm not that strong of a Lateon fan. I haven't watched the new show.et Copp I think it's called. I literally can't remember the name at this point. It was like on Canadian TV and now I think it's like only on the CWF ed but I watched it all, it's delightful. I would watch it. She's excellent in it. And I'm so glad to see her like with Adam Brody on the award ceremony carpets and stuff like that. I feel like she landed really well and like I just like we'll always like root for her I agree. I will get the CW app so I can watch that show.. It's very specific and that's the only thing you'll watch on it, but it's very good How do you think goossip Girl would function if it premiered today with TikTok instead of the blog era? I think it would be the same thing as like when the even when the reboot came out, was like too much. and we now have multiple ways of shooting video when like I guess TikTok was sort of coming, when they were filming, I don't think TikTok was really as big as it is now. I wonder if with so many people sort of trying to push aside the algorithm and going to mediums like Substack or like this all this talk about being like analog and not being online as much or being less perfect. I wonder if they would had to have like compete with that a little bit it It could have been interesting, but maybe there would have been no show if nobody was online because it would just be like A regular Ten TV show with people talking around a table That's really funny. That's true Was there a character that you've grown to appreciate more now that you're an adult instead of like a teenager, your first watch I think I actually kind of like Jenny Humphrey. L I think knowing to the background of like how Taylor Mompson was so young and she got involved and then was trying to find herself and really just wanted to be a musician, didn't want to be on the show anymore and they leted her out of her contract. Watching Jenny's sort of internal struggle from like G Girl to like Queen Be and then eventually off the show, I think is interesting because I'm sure that there's a lot reflected in Taylor Mumps' personal life there. And I always find that interesting. And I'm so glad that Eric bailed on his family because they were so bad to him. I'm so glad that he just like left and that Connor Powo was like, I'm going to go on beyond revenge which was a which was went on for as long and be on another like serial drama because they didn't appreciate him. fully agree with you. And I agree about the Jenny Humphy. Like when I was a teenager, I was like she's so annoying when really she's just trying to find her place, she's trying to find her footing. And I also think Vanessa gets a little too much hate Yeah, I think that the writers didn't. it's sort of like when Katherine Heiggel, like did that whole thing about Gr's anaty was like, don't put me in for an Mmity andt give me anything to work with. Like that's kind of what I feel like with Vanessa. because she was really interesting in the beginning and then They made her like the only crusader against the upper East side, but she was still dating them all and hanging out with them all And I think they made her a little too insufferable at the end. They made her kind of shrill. and it was like, nobody to watch you anymore. And they didn't get Yeahah, like just becauseZor's greatade, they didn't give her anything to work with ully agree. Even Rufus grew on me the older I got. I was like, it's not that annoying. No. Rufus grew on me, and then Lily actually like now as an older person, like watching Lily like abandon her children over and over again. I'm like, o, you're awful. Like that's why your kids to like this. Lily is a terrible mother. actual like I try to give grace to mothers inst No, she's actually just a bad mom Fly out So obviously a lot of generations have their iconic teen drama. I would say goossip Girl isn int our big three when it comes to teen dramas. Why do you think it's had such staying power I think gossip Girl, when everybody's hot and sort of this early two thousands nostalgia really helps. this Y two K era like look back and like, oh, that's what it was like in right after the nineteen hundreds I went to a store the other day like a secondhand store and literally everything was like from the early two thousands. It was full of juicy Gatours sweatsuits. I'm not and like wow all Juice and Ed Hardy. And I was like, I can't be in here having a flashback. and like pictures of Brittney Spears and like and JLO in their in their vintage Jy guitar. So like I think that there's a renewed interest in that era anyway But The feelings that everybody had in high school or the feelings that these teenage characters on the show are universal. Like noody wants to be left out. everyverybody wants to be liked, everyverybody wants to be appreciated. Everybody wants to know or remember what it's like to be in love for the first time And that's true if you're eighteen or if you're sixty eight like, you know, now, And even with new generations now, like they're coming into those feelings over and over and over again. And that's like sort of the eternal While every other channel is fighting for your customers' attention, podcasts are where they've already given it No one accidentally listens to a podcast for forty five minutes. They choose to be here. They trust the voice in their ears, and when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising. It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. ACast gives you that trust at scale. Digital precision, host read authenticity, and performance data that proves it worked Don't fight for attention. buuy it with ACast. Learn more by visiting Acast dot com slash advertise great thing about Ten TV no matter what era, whether it's nine hundred two L or this or whatever else is on oruoria is a little scarier, but those feelings never go away. So and I think that that's why people keep watching those shows. That's really beautiful. I really love the way you were of that because even like this summer I turned pretty, I'm almost thirty five and I was like, this feels so good to watch. This is fun to watch I just watched off campus last weekend and it's not nearly as it's not nearly or even here rivalry. I mean, that's a love story and that like It's kind of the same thing. these romantic comedy things' There's a lot to them and there's a lot of feelings that just are really universal to humans. Yeah, I love that. That's so good. I love that. I know we already said that Chuck and Blair didn't age well. Are there any other storylines that while you were writing your book, you kind of revisited it and you were like, what the fuck was I watching? The Rachel and Dan one because it's like a hot for teacher thing M That was a big one, I think, just because of how blindingly inappropriate it was. think I think a lot of the stories about Serena and the sluthaming of Serena is really difficult now to look back on because in the show they talk about how she got famous from like a paparazzi shot when she was fourteen years old, she was on a yacht and it was basically like an accidental wet t shirt contest. She was wearing a white dress and then she got dched. So they're posting pictures of a fourteen year old minor in like these magazines on the French Riiera. And then a suddenly, she was like an it girl Mm. And she's not she doesn't have a lot of partners on the show. like she has probably as much sex as everybody else And she's the one who constantly is getting blamed for being promiscuous. Like, you know, she sleeps with Nate in the first episode, but like then she's with Dan She had a teacher like taken take a few teachers take advantage of her. She had trip take advantage of her. like I think because her family life was so bad, she was just constantly looking for somebody to anchor her and while Lily was off to continue the metaphor, building life raraps with new husbands. And She just like got a bad rap. I think people's feelings about Blake Lively cloud this a little bit. So if you can separate the art from the artists, like So I don't Serena just like, was like any of the other ones and just maybe because she was tall and pretty and blonde and they needed somebody to call a slut. like there has to be one in every show. But I don't think that she was. That's really interesting because you're right. She didn't have that many more partners than anyone else. No, they all were like kind of serial monogamous. Like they weren't really around. like she had And that's St evenhen who's to say like she was sleeping with for, you know with Adam Tevittt or I mean, Aaron Teittt, like yeah, I just always felt bad for her when I was real flat was Nate if we're being honest. Yeah Or even Dan, like in the second seenason when he's like dating all the same girls at the same time and they all meet up at the book rading and they're all like Like we hate you. L orr Chuck with a thousand women in his bed all of his dad's employees, which is an entire other issue because how can you say no when you can get fired from your minimum wage job? That's another thing I could talk about Chuckwor, but We justustice for Serena, let's say that. We don't revisit this show because it's a morally great show, basically. Now. And I like, listen, I am not better than anybody else. I wrote a whole book about it and like part of my Part of patriotism and love for something is being able to call out its flaws with any So I love this show Would I have made some changes? Yes now looking back on it. But I do love it. I think it's at its heart a great show and really predicted the future in a lot of ways Well, yeah, I was gonna ask, did writing this book change the way you personally view celebrity culture or fandom or even gossip girl as a whole say did it heal me? I think My years have I was a television recapper for a long time as well. My years of knowing how the sausage gets made on the Bachelor and on Bravo And in this and all those things like really just shows me and then like we've been saying growing up in the era that we grew up in, where Jessica Simon was fat because she wore high waisted jeans, like Press Hilton outing people. And it was like such a weird Vicious, I think is the good word for it, time, hungry time for this information. And I think that Hollywood like hasn't changed a lot in that regard It's still about ratings. It's still about shocking. It's still about just trying to make as many eyeballs tune into you as possible. I mean, all of that Hollywoodism is like kind of extended into politics. now it's every in every facet of our lives these days So not to be a pessimist, but I think that like researching all the book is being like, oh, not much actually has changed when it comes to the machine Yeah, it's just packaged differently, but it's still kind of the same message Like they will still do whatever for ratings If there's in writers and you know, reality TV, whatever, like Andy Cohen's not out there talking about the moral clarity of like this Sarah, Amanda West love trying like, you know, and because we're watching it. I'm watching it too. I like was sat the other day watching Summer House But I think that like you know, all the production stories on this show too, it's all the same things sort of, like you said, repackaged for a new time Well, before we get to our last question, I guess on the flip side of what hasn't aged well, what do you think has aged Well? Because when I watch it now, the relationship Blair has with Dota is so like special And I feel like that is aged really well, especially because people's parents are working and might not be able to get the attention It is nice to see this girl who's dealing with eating disorders and boyfriend issues still have a stable person to talk to, even if it isn't their mom or dad Yeah, I agree one hundred percent. I spoke to Szanne N adowsky who played Derota a few times. And we had spoken about the fact that like there's a joke in the last episode that like Mayor Bloomberg is like, I thought it was Derota because like that gospel was Derota becauseuse a lot of people did. And she and I spoke about how that would have been such a betrayal on a whole different level because Doroda is Blair's person Totally Even above Serena and Chuck and for that reason, she didn't have anybody to turn to, but she was the one who was always there So I agree one hundred percent on that. I think The fashion is held up. It's a very Y twoK, whatever, But like Eric Damon did such a good job outfitting each person in such a perfect way that reflected their character and their personality And I think the New York of it all really stands up to what it was at that time. Like the writers knew what they were doing and they were listening to the commentators on the New York magazine recaps and stuff. And I think that like the show holds up and it doesn't, it like we're sitting there poking all the holes in it kind of right now, but like yeah it wasn't different about anything else that was happening at the time. We were just focused on the show right now. So like they worked with what they could work with And I still think that as a piece of entertainment, it's like pretty close to perfection for that moment. Totally and ahead of its time, like so far ahead of its time. It predicted a lot of the way that we use social media. Yeah. Yeah, for better and for worse. but I think And you know, all like I said this before, but like Josh Swartz and Stephanie Savage as a producing pair make a perfect first season of shows. The like gopel's first season perfect the OCs perfect Like I feel like they sort of like they just go too fast and then they run out a runway and then that's when everything collapses on these shows because they're soapy. But if you look at the first two seasons, it's like are the first three, we can say, they're great. They're just great like entertaining fun episodes of TV This is my final question. Thank you so much for coming on and chatting about gossipirl first and Jeopardy too Do you think that we'll ever get another teen drama that captures pop culture the way gossip girl did Or was that like a very specific moment in time? Because it was the transition, I guess of social media. Yeah. I think we can do a callback to what we were talking about the beginning when it comes to monoc culture. I don't think so because I think everybody's eyes are in so many different places right now online and we're not watching You know, everybody watches heat rivalry for a weekend. Everybody watches off campus for a weekend and it doesn't sustain I don't know that we can ever capture lightning in a bottle with a show like that until we sort of revert back to that like Tuesday, nine PM Channel eleven.