Assessing the risks of a snap election

Hello and welcome to Not Another onene. We join you this week with a not the cheeriest of backdrops I have to say, dear listeners. I'm Miranda Green and I'm here with Steve Richards, Tim Montgomery and Ian Martin and we thought today because there's so much going on that we would do another one of our what we call our TapPass episodes so that we can offer you three three topics, but we think we probably should start with the political ory and reaction to the murder case in Southampton of a student knife a knife attack, a fatal knife attack and the police actions when they attended Now Obviously, you know, it's a horrific case, you know, knife crime Young lives cut short. is all too evident in news coverage quite a lot of the time. But this particular case has sparked a dramatic reaction from Nigel Farage Wh The commentarat seem to be as one interpreting as a kind of bid to kill off a threat from the right, from the restore party. which is doing a little bit too well for comfort in terms of reforms prospects in the Makerfield by election. Steve, I'm going to come to you first because I know also you've got to potentially leave us at some point. So what's your reaction to the political reaction? Because we're recording this on Tuesday afternoon and of course the homeome Secretary is due to make a statement to the House U on it as well So it's clearly one of those awful cases that has sort of gripped the national imagination, but then of course gets used sometimes Yeah. Well, I share that reaction. I think Nigel Farage is a sharp reader of the political mood. And he knows exactly what he's doing. And what he is doing is utterly irresponsible It is fueling hatred and anger in ways that are really dangerous. And you contextualized it with this threat from restore this Rupert Lowe outfit that's part of it, but he has said similar things before There's no evidence for it. And he's much he's sort of at ease rid with these sort of evidence free dramatic interventions But it's really dangerous. and he has the communication powers to be more nuanced than that and as effective. But he has chosen this and it says a lot about him, all of it alarming and disgraceful So he's called explicitly for rage, right? He said we should react with pure cold rage to the case and that all the values and standards of living in a free country where everybody is judged equally before the law have been trashed and thrown away. So that is an extraordinary allegation about British society And he's not even, I mean, he is a communicator, so he does have persuasive power. He's not trying to use it in this case. He is trying to articulate rage that is already out there and appear to be the spokesperson . Now these are situations and Shiban Mahmoud who is regarded as a Tough home secretary will be like this, where you have to calmly state what has happened, what has gone wrong, and there are issues for the police, etcetera, which are needed to be urgently addressed. However, to fuel the rage that is already out there is not the act of a potential prime minister, nor is it the act to say of a self confident communicator where you could instead of just echoing anger seek to use it in a subtle way Ian, what do you make of this? Because it was also in terms of the sort of choreography of it was interesting. he, by which I mean Nigel Farge decided to do a sort of video address to the nation to comment on the case, which is something that he sometimes does when he wants to intervene and make the live news channels switch to him And he's got quite good at it. But do you agree with Steve that this is sort of actually an unconfident move? becausecause if he was feeling confident, he might strike a more nuanced, interesting tone rather than seeking to kind of out restore, restore. Do you think that's what's happening Well, I think there are so many dangers here. So I mean, where to start. but I do think there is a There's a real danger in jumping ahead too fast to make this about Nigel Farraage Most people have it's less than twenty four hours since we saw that video And there's so much to digest and process and I certainly wouldn't have phrased it This is the police camera. Yeah footage. I certainly wouldn't have phrased it like Nigel Farage framed it And I do I see all the dangers. But I think it is I mean it is genuinely shocking And I think You know that clearly something has gone very badly wrong with the system. and maybe I'll set this worth at some point if we get a chance there's a section from the judge and from his from the hearing that I think it's worth worth quoting for Conext. But as I say, most of us have just en that seen that video and something has entered the system debate whether it is Back to McPerson Or as Kemvy Badeno said But it's more recent than maybe more recent than that. that it is essentially the first assumption was that when The racism charge was was was was thrown then that was instantly believed. and the young man on the ground was assumed to be a wrongan and assumed to be lying when he said he'd been stabbed. Now that is This is years of this filtering filtering down through right down to an operational level and the police are in very, very difficult a very difficult situation in the dark But institutionally That's what's been done to law enforcement in this country. So I just think it is I think it's a mistake to jump ahead and make this about Nigel Farage. I do think there's I do think there are sorts of problems with what he's saying. I think we are We should be very worried about political violence and this country occasionally has a habit of spilling over into rioting, so people should Try and stay stay calm, but I'm afraid I can't just elide and move on from the the video itself and what it reveals about our policing culture and straight to Farage would be mly I think that's very interesting in. I mean, one of the things I thought looking at the footage was the hands of this young man were completely white. and he was on the ground, saying he'd been stabbed And there there are clearly a lot of questions for the police to answer in terms of what went went wrong with that in those few crucial minutes when when the eighteen year old was bleeding to death on the ground and when they handcuffed him I mean, you do wonder with a lot of the cases where policing goes really badly wrong, whether the instincts are correct. Andm not anyway, I'm not sort of particularly taking issue with your interpretation, but I also think that there are lots of different cases that we've been shocked by about bad policing And you can't attribute all of them to some sort of top down cultural self censorship, as it were. Some of it seems to be assessing a dangerous situation in the moment, incredibly badly and incompetently. I mean, I would hope that that would also be part of what the you know, complaint looks into now. I mean, I agree with you, that video footage is shocking and it's hard to move on from it. But what's going on there is worse than worse than a misinterpretation. it's not looking at somebody on the ground bleeding to death and realizing that that's what was happening. Do you not think? Yes, potentially. I mean, I think that we should I do think we should hear from Tim you know, I'm not sure if you have a different take different take from me. And then as I say, I do think it's worth almost reading into the record what the judge said about about the complications of the case. Yeah. OkayK. Tim, you say you're joining us you're joining us On a day where we're all trying to make sense of this really appalling story. What's your reading of it? and do you agree with Ian that we shouldn't actually be jumping ahead to an analysis of Nigel Farage's address to the nation over the video, but that actually we should dwell on the case. I mean, or do you think that this is actually the political intervention is so dramatic that inevitably it's going to overshadow theseese other considerations I've watched Niza Farag's video and I don't remember seeing him quite so angry. I'm not sure that anger is helpful, particularly at this stage, but I think it's real. I think he's genuinely upset and I've been not so well over the last few days but I've been around Salisbury a little bit and I walked to TESco earlier today and three people stopped me. They know I'm inv volult of politics. This is what they wanted to talk about. it's got to people and two of them mented it in the context of what happened to the Manchester Airport attackers of when the Crown Prosecution Service decided not to retry the people accused of attacking the policemen. Now House Mager F is absolutely justed it right. time will tell. But I've said sometimes you have to represent the rage of people. And I don't think rage is understated on this issue. You have to channel it well. but to automatically assume I think Sorry, Steve to hit back at you, but to automatically assume that this is political, of course this's a politician. there'll always be a politics of it. But I don't remember when George Freud was killed last you know during the COVID period. People automatically assume when people were offended by what happened to him outrageous police brutality that did occur. People assumed it was political. There was something underlying there which was outrageous. And earlier there I heard ia Yusf interviewed on the World at one we were recording on Tuesday they may be listening later in the week. AndZ you have made the allegation to the BBC that they're obsessed with this issue and so many of our public sector institutions are obsessed with this issue. And actually later on in that programme, the programme ended with the BBC doing a segment on gender based referee, which may not seem relevant, but there is, I'm afraid In so many of our public services, there' obsession with identity politics and seeing everything through the prism of race, gender, sexuality, etceter. Now there have been great injustices to people of minorities, to women over the course of the time, but I think as we learned during the grooming scandal The balance went too far. they became obsessions in the public sector. And, you know, we, you know, the police officer who handcuffed Henry Nov, that there will be he will now have to face an independent inquiry into his status as a police officer and that should run its run its course. But the very fact that he seemed to the the racial allegation seemed to be at the forefront of his mind, not the Not only' complaint that he was You ment him Rand that had his hand were wiped. hand were wiped. Yeah he was clearly not well. he wasn't representing a threat to anyone. and yet he was handcuffed, he was rolled over and that is you know extraordinarily. you know his rights were read to him in the last moments of he had on Eth.. peopleeople are angry. They don't understand how that could happen And I think there is an ideology, I'm afraid, that is behind this that has led to this. And we do need to always be worried about racism and homophobia and sexism. But it just seems to these dimensions of identity politics seem to have taken a level of attention in the public sector that isn't know about loneliness or good basic policing, there are plenty of things wrong in our society, but it's identity politics that above all others. And I think when you have these two incidents very close to each other, the Manchester Airport incident And this killing of an eighteen year old boy, people are understandably very, very angry, and very concerned. they're very angry and they're very concerned because this isn't exactly a surprise. We've been talking about this for years and nothing's been done about it. And because nothing really has been done about it, actually the institutions have become even more focused on these issues, then you get the rage And that's why you're having the rage. And yes, it's good it's rainy at the moment because I worry about what might happen on some of the streets of England. Let the rain continue for a few days and maybe some of the heat will go out of the rhetoric that some politicians are using as well. Yeah. Well, I agree about the rain. There's always a good dampener of excessive rage. but just to come back to you again on Nigel Farade though, Tim He wasn't saying that he was reflecting rage. He was recommending that people react with rage. Those were his words. that that Is that within the scope of justust feeling a genuine emotion and expressing it I don't know. I feel rageed about what's happened I'm not the sort of person who will go out and riot them I'm not the sort of person who will wrriite and take that rage into onto the streets I'm afraid we do know there are people who will And I probably wouldn't have used the words that he used But I'm not going to criticize them for them because I understand his Is eer And if those people that I've met in Salisbury some of the weekends we'll just talk about the Manchester airport incident are typical. Middle England is in raids already. So it's not exactly Nigel Farage is not the main problem here. The problem is the underlying incident, which I think I been fairly focused on. Steve, what's your reaction to that Well, I agree with a lot of what all of you are saying. I mean, the video, which I can't really watch is so unbearable that what you have is a reaction of intense, almost disbelief and anger. But you asked me to comment on the intervention from Farage I think, as I say, in these situations, you don't feel the rage. The rage is already there And I think you've got to be really careful as figures of political movements at times like this to extrapolate too much from it. Voters will or a lot or some will And I get angry with a lot of police conduct and there is Things going on which shouldn't go on in the I mean this is a statement of the obvious, of course, in this nightmarish case. Um but the reasons why this happen are often complicated and a deep And where people have to respond to a situation quickly It's much harder, I think, to sort of extrapolate all kinds of cultural implications Fom it Yeah, I agree with a lot of what has been said. I mean, we should point out that a life sentence was handed down, right? Yeah. And the injuries were so severe that they were fatal injuries. Yeah J Miranda, just can I just sorry, this just it might take a minute ninety seconds, but I just think and it's actually had very little coverage Danny Shaw, who's a former of BBC Home Affairs correspondent or editor flagged on Twitter on X yesterday. And I just think it's worth highlighting it's basically what The judge said afterwards and he This is an attempt by the judge to focus it on the lies of the convicted murderer Vikram ing Bigwell. And I think I think it's a really interesting passage from the from the judge and the impact about the impact of Diga's lies. Another consequence of those lies is that the attending police officers honestly believed that there were reasonable grounds for suspecting Henry had committed an offense and arrested him with the consequence. He was handcuffed for about a minute before his condition further deteriorated and the arresting officer began CPR The police were given a convincing but wholly false narrative of the incident. It was dark and Henry was wearing a dark top The entry damage caused by the knife would not have been obvious Blood on Henry would not have been clearly seen coming from that wood. Henry was complaining that he'd been stabbed and was struggling to breathe, but that would not necessarily told the officers how serious the situation become It's the experience of the criminal courts that sometimes someone arrested and handcuffed will feain injury in they hope they may be released These police officers were faced with having to make quick decisions in pressurized circumstances about the best way to act genuine shock to the particular police officer When he realized that he'd been giving CPR to Henry, when he had a serious chest wound tends to show that he was doing his best in a very difficult situation. Now there will be people listening to this that will object to that and say that that is the that's that's the jge, you know, that the judge is giving giving too much understanding there, but it is an interesting framing that the judge attempts to focus it back on the person who is responsible Wh is the perpetrator who wielded the knife and has been sentenced and convicted Iland and so I think that's very fair in actually. and I would say I think I've listened to a few experts al my sick bettered the last day or two and quite a number of them have said actually Knife wounds can be quite hard to find, particularly in the dark. You know It isn't obvious that you know you imagine a gushing wound or something. That is often not the case. I have to say though, even though when you have someone say he's been attacked by a knife, Miranda' already talked about the whiteness of his hands. This man did not look well. Now it wasn't know perhaps he didn't look well in the policeman's eyes because he was being accused, he' being arrested by the police. That would be enough to turn certain people I'm looking very scared. Bicing Henry Nber did communicate enough to the police officer to suggest that he should have been examined more thoroughly than he was. Oh and also the attacker know clearly was a very plausible, convincing liar according to that account from the judge And I mean, you know I mean criminals are well known for being very plausible liars, right? So there are all these other things hedging it about. But surely that sort of undermines the idea that it was kind of blind obedience to some sort of diversity principle, doesn't it Yes. I mean I would say of particular challenges and it's always quite dangerous to extrapolate wider conclusions from the particular. I'm pleased heam read that bit of the judge's statement out, because it shows to some extent the complexity of this specific situation. And that's why I think, you know, to rush in and you know fuel the rage is irresponsible Interesting. Well, I mean, we'll have to see we need to take a break, but we'll have to see see where this goes in the few days ahead because I'm sure that it doesn't end here. that's for sure. you know it mustn't. It really mustn't we have to have serious We have to have serious questions about what's happening to our public sector institutions. And I'll reach out this much to Steve. I think if those serious questions are to happen, I would hope that everyone keeps the rhetoric under control. And if there is any possibility of some sort of cross party work on this, that will be better than it to become a party political issue Certainly sometimes if something is not a party political issue, it's not taken seriously and getting that balance right isn't always. Well I mean I hear you on that. I'm not sure that this is going to help you know a calm sober assessment. I must say. Anyway, we better take a break and then we will come back and move on to all of the other huge political stories of the week So welcome back. Thank you for sticking with us and we turn now to the recurrent theme, I think that's the polite way of putting it, chaps, of Peter Mandelson, Lord Mandelson and his time as British ammbassador to DC because we've had the latest enormous tranche of messages to and from Peter Mandelson from various members of the Starma Government. and some of it is Uncomfortable for those whose messages have been released, a lot of it is redacted, but probably the most embarrassing message that's come to light and certainly the one that is plastered across most of the front pages today the following day is from Paor Pat McFadden, who know is now grappling with the welfare system and welfare reform, but at the time for a lot of this period was in the cabinet office, and he messages Peter Mandleton to say, all of his meetings with Labor in peace tend to focus on Please put up some taxes so that we can spend more. And this of course is an utter gift to all Kistamas political opponents and the paper' having a Absolute feelield day. Steve, what do you think? Is this sort of, you know, the cloud of Peter Mandelson, the bad spell over the government? Is this just sort of inevitably going to go on and on and on and they'll never get out from under it? Or do you think do you think this will sort of will pass like the rain clouds I'm looking out out at Well I found the latest batch really fascinating, but only as an exercise in the way the media works because obviously everyone was told thousands of pages were to be published So everyone got ready, extra people were brought in to read it all. So the grammar of the event demanded a sense that this was dramatic revelatory stuff U and and it wasn't. I was surprised that it wasn't much more revelatory because Mandelson is a gossip and has the knack of bringing people's malevolent gossip out in conversation and text and so on Now, a lot, as your FT colleagues noted, have not got into the public domain But that that did Honestly, the Blair Brown era, I could you know if there were texts then, it would have been ten thousand times more embarrassing than this. And the specific thing of Pat McFadden This is not remotely surprising. They were fighting to protect those welfare reforms. Labour MPs actually not saying tax more to do it, but were saying these specific reforms didn't address the problem There was the most almighty clash. It's unsurprising that McFadden, who knew Manson well, expressed his frustration in this way. And if that was it It was in a way surprisingly unremarkable Because of the way the whole thing had been built up, it had to be a huge story when it wasn't H Ian, what do you think? It doesn't help the government, does it surely to have this tax rises and welfare costs equation, know in the words of a senior cabinet minister Yeah, Well, I disagree with. Yeah. I agree with Steve in one respect. I agree. I don't think it's actually that newsworthy. And I think we've now reached the limit really or the outer reaches of this stuff actually being interesting and the way in which our contemporary media handles these stories And it' be most of it will be forgotten next week or is forgotten by today. Where I disagree is on the welfare reforms, which I just don't agree we've discussed it before. I just don't agree with that categorization. I think Pat McFadden is in trouble with Labour MPs for basically telling the truth which is that you know, and he was there. he's the person in those conversations and his account of it is that Pretty much every conversation he had was someone looking for a way to increase taxes, increase revenue. So as he put it, he didn't just talk about spending, he talks about it being spent on benefits for other for other people, which is what it is. So McFadden who's seen the lots, you know, been there with with Blair and, you know right from right from the start of that era. clearly sees the situation Clearly which is we're spending far too much money as a country The welfare bill is rising in a way which is unsustainable And our politics is unmoooured from that basic reality. So I mean, he's getting criticism. I'd give Pat McFadden an award actually I have to say that what I thought was it surely is not going to make it any easier for him when he does come forward with whatever his proposed solution is on welfare reform to have those negotiations with the labour backack benches, surely, becausees the point is also you know no one quite knows what to do about welfare reform. But even if you come up with something clever, you've got to get it through. and the great surprise of the last two years is that a government with this scale of majority can't get things through Does doesnesn't this make that worse? I would have thought Yes And that's back where I do do agree with Steve And I' take it slightly one step further, which is that actually when I was watching we were homeing watching it, I was just thinking, most of this conversation, we all have a sense of glee When you see other people, when you see communications you're not supposed to see. I can get that point. I get people to roar amusement. It's a very human thing. but That stuff is most of it is just the stuff of how people talk about their work, about how they vent frustration with a decision that's not gone their way, about how they tackle problems, about what that applies in a school, it applies in You know, in a factory. any work placeace, any workplace. Goodness. journalists. journalists. journalists biggest gossips of the lot to get sanctimonious about talking frankly about their colleagues see what happens on the sech T they're the worst am most But isn't right Isn't that righteous I? I think it your. you're being bitchy about your colleagues in the context of the church, isn't that I've got a theory on this, but I think when you're in the church setting, people have such ridiculous expectations of each other that when they fall short which they inevitably do, we're just sort of more sanctrimonious and upset about it But my goodness, the routs I've seen in churches, the sense of offence Very unholy do you agree sort of because obviously sort of, you know, we've all been inside political machines and observing them for decades. Tim, do you agree that this is just the kind of run of the mill you know, bitchy bitchery that always goes on? I mean, I did think it was quite clever of West Streeting to release the messages between himself and Madelson early because it meant that that wasn't the story this and probably otherwise would have would have been because well the underlying issue I think we're all agreed with what Estein's Trading of young girls is one of the great crimes of modern politics. I'm not sure the focus we've given on the Mandelsen dimension to it merits the attention we've given it. It's a subplot of this. I don't think we learnnt very much yesterday. Although call me cynical. Is there one more trant is there? If I was If I was a cynical government person, I would make sure that the second tranch was a bit dull and keep so therefore when the third or final tranch comes out, you keep the stuff that's a bit naughtier in there because people probably won't make so much an effort now having processed the second tranch. Okay. you say you think somebody's manufacturing fatigue? Possibly. Yeah. I do know the house I've been around politicians a little while now. I wouldn't put it past them That would be tru that would be truly, truly sneaky.be truly sneaky. Wow. H I think there must have been some things that were redacted that we would have found a lot more interesting, to be honest. And I think also that the closeness of Peter Mandelson to to his clients, his commercial clients and quite how often those companies and individuals get mentioned in official government business is of interest actually and I think that sort of conflict of interest dimension to this story is quite important in terms of future appointments and in terms of keeping the whole business clean. That's all the subject to the police investigation at the moment, isn' it? So that's why I think it is probably a been reacted here But again, you know what I thought about that though? I think it's very important to keep an eye on that sort of hygiene as it were, between commercial interests and political appointments and objectives. But also, we all know that government relies on a network of people in the know And actually ministers wouldn't be able to do their job if people weren't saying, o well, actually I know so and so and you know let me tell you how they see it and do you want me to set up a meeting? So so long as things are transparent, you actually do need a certain level of contact, which is what I thought when there was you know there are parts of the tranche that was released this week that are all about trying to get the UK US trade deal through And some of that involved Douglas Alexander, the minister who was very involved with that, wanting to hear what some commercial interests had to say. And on a trade deal, that's really important, isn't it, Ian? I mean Yeah. You know, youd be Exactly. is this is the stuff of life of politics of negotiation, people working out a way around a problem. It's just how human beings talk and for for the media to present this as, you know as something more than that, I think is It's very revealing of what's going on in our media culture and just how addicted it's become to USAT's drama There are lots of genuinely dramatic And interesting things happening in the world at the moment Ukraine, defense, the energy crisis what's happening in Iran Gness is a long list. but that cach of emails, even calling it a cashe, you know is designed to give it some sort of fake fake allure I think is revealing itself. but I think we've got to take a break, haven't we? We've got to take a break and I think we Steve, do we have to say goodbye to you? because you have to be elsewhere, I think All right, all right, brilliant. Well, with the shock revelation that Ian thinks that journalists are sometimes sanctimonious, we will take this short break Okay, welcome back. Right. We're just going to wrap up quickly with a bit of this early election chat. Now, Ian, you famously right from the start of not another one two years ago, said you thought the election might be earlier than the last possible moment in twenty twenty nine. There's been a lot of speculation over the last week or so about whether if Andy Burnham actually manages to secure the premiership whether he would call an early election. Steve, I know you've got to rush off, so I'll come to you first. What do you think about these early election theories? I think Andy Burnham has played this down at the moment, he got he's got to play that down because I mean he he's at the moment got to pitch to so many different constituencies there's the by election. then of course there are labour MPs and a lot of labour MPs in marginal seats don't like talk of an early elections given where labour are in the polls. But of course if labour remain in that position in the polls, there won't be an early election. However, if and there are so many hurdles here, but if Andy Burnham becomes Prime Minister and gets a honeymoon and labour are ahead in the polls, which I think is not impossible during a political honeymoon of a new Pime Minister I think he would be very tempted. and I don't think we should raw this option out because incoming prime ministers between elections. This happened to Gordon Brown, it happened to Theresa May are tormented by the mandate issued Given the focus in the bialection on change and labour's got to change and all the rest of it. It will be quite acute, I think. Now there are ways around it and he might navigate all of that and keep going for the whole of this parliamentary term. He's got every right to do so because parties are elected not prime ministers. but in a honeymoon situation with this unusual context of this focus on change, change, change. that he's making in the bialection. His own mandate must be so tempting if labour finds itself ahead of Steve, I've got to No Steve, not another one. This is where we sort it came in. You're right, voters don't want it and that will be many of the factors ruling against. But we all follow closely prrime ministers in this situation if he gets into this situation And u They will think about it at the very least, even if publicly at the moment, he's absolutely got to rule it out Well it's very interesting. I've no doubt, Steve that there will be people around him urging that course on him. My My sources tell me that Andy Bernammer's personality is quite risk averse. And of course, that would be quite a gamble. E if in your scenario, he had a honeymon period and he was slightly ahead in the polls and he thought, right, now's my moment. I can get a mandate and see off Nigel Farage properly at a national level. What do you think here? I'm dubious. Obviously, you're quite right, you should never rule anything out. but I think it' what an unbelievable risk though, because he's in a situation then if he becomes Prime Minister. I just remember As soon as they become Prime Minister, they're thinking How can they get to the next year? How we've talked about it before? How do add How do you add a year to the legacy? And the idea that you would just you'd be the labor equivalent almost of Liz Truss if it went wrong. If you took office then and then were out within three, four, five, six months. So I'd be very surprised if he He does. The other danger for him is that he could have He certainly could have a honeymoon for a couple of months But beyond that, what is he actually going to say in a general election campaign that's different from what Labor said in its last manifesto that embodies this hopeless word change, which you hear all the time in politics massively overused. What would be this what would be the three or four specifics that are affordable considering well he, you know, he talks about being in hoped to the bond to the bond markets where he's he find out all about that. So he'd have the bond markets and investors, international investors watching that he'd have to make a couple of pledges, which would obviously one assumes involves spending spending money. plus meanwhile, the defense sideide of things is about is about to blow up in a big way for the government. I'm sure we'll talk about that in a future episode. I just don't quite get what are the What are the two or three things beyond the kind of generalized hopey change thing that are convincing enough to get you through a six week six week campaign. So I I think I've slightly changed my mind on this and You're absolutely right, Miranda. his reputation is risk of Well, I think you're I just think we' got of judment of Brenda, that was the anger, that pe peel of thunder you could hear and the lightning which rent the sky above me was Brenda from Bristol protesting at the very mention of the idea of another general election. So thank you Brenda for coming to S like to end our oncast today I see I think Steve, I think yours is the most important point, which is really kind of you know, do four hundred od MPs want to be marched towards the sound of gunfire? immediately after a leadership crisis has been resolved. I can't see itlylikely. Well, thank you all so much and thank you for joining us to the bititter End. It's been quite a serious week, so we're glad that Brenda came to cheer us up. And Dus X Macina she appeared. Thank you, Brenda, and goodbye. Goodbye. Bye