Henry VIII and the Cycle of Violence

Want to walk the halls of Anne Bleyn's childhood home? or explore the castles that made up Henry VI's English stronghold With a subscription to History Hit, you can dive into our Tutor past alongside the world's leading historians and archeologists You'll also unlock hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a brand new release every single week coovering everything from the ancient world World War II Just visit history hit. com For slash, suubbscribe Hello, I'm Professor Suusanna Lipbskom and welcome to Not justust the Tudors from History Hit The podcast in which we explore everything from Anne Boleyin to the Aztecs, from Holbein to the Huguenos, from Shakespeare to Samuraise Relieved by regular doses of murdder, espionage and witchcraard Not in other words, just the tutors But most definitely also the tudors There are many narratives about why Anne Bleyn became Henry VI second If you were to believe the films and the TV series, Nathalie Dormer, as Anne, for example, you'd think it was all about her beauty and sex appeal And certainly, contemporaries did record her attractive dark eyes, and the way she had of wielding them Their power was such that many a man yielded to her his obedience, wrote Arcelord Deces that's not all. We're also told that she was ambitious, that she sought to be quQeen Here's an extract from a children's book quoted by my guest today. This is from the Ladybird history books on which so many of us in Britain were raised She had been well educated, partly in France and was a good musician. But she was ambitious and unscrupulous When she realized that she had attracted the attention of Henry, she was determined to become quQueen at any cost Perhaps if she had known that the cost was to be her head, she might have hesitated We're told that in the years of waiting to marry Henry, Anne held out on him physically, alluring him with the promise of her body and her son She would deliver one only after marriage. and the other as it turned out not at all And then more recently, theres Sixth The Musical and the enormous impact that that has had, which today's guest will assess for me There seems to be an undeniable current that belongs to a century other than our own, and I don't mean the sixteenth, but the twentieth century. and used her feminine wyes There' often some dark allusion to sexual tricks Anne had learnted at the French courourt as if and had access to some, Eesoteric knowledge the rest of us have not rediscovered in the last five hundred years and that she overreached herself, got too big for her boots, was ambitious dirty word for a woman was manipulative and that when she did become queen, she was stormy, shock tempered that she, in other words, deserved everything she got My guest today has sought to unpick that tangled knot of biases and prejudices and downright sexism in her book. But as a priest in an Anglican church in Canada, she's also alive and alert to a question that hasn't been posed enough about Anne. where I think she's really onto something talking necessarily about new sources today, My guest has drawn on existing scholarship But her position as a female minister and her astute insight brings a fresh revelatory quality to thinking about Anne Bolen that is exceedingly welcoming My guest today is Martha Tarty or of St. George's Anglican Church in St. Catherine's, Ontario She's a contributor to Christian Centry, a blogger on medium and a co host of the future Christian podcast. And she is the author of Ane Boyn, Reputation, Revolution, releligion and the Queen who changed history. I'm Professor Susanel Lipsk. Welcome to Not just the Tutors from History Had I don't know whether I should call you Revere Tartternick or Martha. But welcome all the same. Please just call me Martha. Welcome, Martha. It's great to be here, Susanna Well let's start, shall we, talking about the popular perceptions of Aneoleyn You say something at the beginning, which I think actually lots of people would chime with. You write that from a young age, Anne inspired you. She made you want to be more yourself. How and why do you think Anne inspires people today I think What drew me to her as a young person is child complex female character. I think that we don't have enough of those complex female characters, I think that we enjoy seeing someone who isn't just one dimensional, who speaks up for herself, who has ideas that she wants to fight for, who doesn't just conform to the boundaries that might be expected of her I have come to realize especially in terms of herer inspiration today has a lot to do with leadership And, you know, we keep talking about women breaking through glass ceilings and women in positions of leadership and power for the first time. As a priest in the Anglican Church here in Canada, we're celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of the Ordination of Women this year in the Anglican Church of Canada There can be a tendency to think that Female leadership is a new thing to be able to go back to five hundred years ago to different points in history to see someone like Anne who very clearly is a leader and to realize that women have always been having an impact on our history. Women have always been shaping the institutions that we have today. We might be giving women new opportunities and new visibility. but they've always been there. They've always had ideas. they've always had influence and impact and gifts and talents to share But that's not the way Anne story as traditionally been told You know, often we get this idea of it as a morality tale, that she was asking for it, that she was over ambitious and deserved her downfall Why Yeah, I think that Anmolyn makes such an interesting mirror for us to look within and to interrogate some of those assumptions, some of those really common ways that we have of talking about women. I mean, you quoted that ladybird Historyet in the opening introduction, that is just such a telling comommentary about u you know women who toill too high and wantce too much But you know Over the course of working on this book and telling people that I'm writing about Anne Boleyn, I have been stunned by the number of times that Wellh you know, or I think what define as quite progressive leaning, maybe would probably even call themselves feminists have said things to me about Anne Boleyn like She did try to land the king though, didn't she set herself in his sights didnidn't she? and then the The implication is Therefore she deserved what she got It's just such an easy victim blaming trope that I think we slip into without even realizing that we're doing it Why did S of the musical incense you Yes, so the genesis of the book does come out of a conversation with my brother about the musical Six. I realized later, you know, as I went to do some dayiging about that musical, I realized that the creators of Six were not actually suggesting that all of these terrible tropes about Anne Boleyn are true. They defined themselves as feminists. They were presenting her in a much more ironic way The problem is is that And political acumen, her religious principles, her intelligence, those routinely surprise people in the ular consciousness of who Anne Boleyn was. Those aren't things that people think they know about Anne Boleyn. they think that they know that she was someomeone who weaponized her sexiness in order to get herself into a position of power. So unfortunately The musical six, which I think is delightful in all kinds of ways. leaning into this idea of Anne as someone who just climbed her way to the top and was pretty promiscuous along the way Unfortunately, it just validates all of those really common beliefs that are out there anyway and that are so false You think instead we need to focus more on her faith I really agree So let's dig into that a bit. Who were her role models? What was her vision, do you think Well, I think that we need to particularly look at her time being raised in the court of Queen Claude of France Of course she did spend a bit of time with Margaret of Austria as well And Margaret of Austria is a fascinating character. the formational years that she had in France with Queen Claude, also in the company of people like Louise De Savvoix and Marguie Don Gou Lem, I think that thoseose influences and role models are so important and we can draw so many through lines from the queenship that Anne exercised to the way in which she saw these women in leadership in France. Ce was a really interesting personers for and to learn from She was very education forward for women She really valued being able to access the Bible and the vernacular and encouraged the ladies of her court to read the Bible in French. She offered support for reformers She had intellectual curiosity, a love of reading, a love of books we can see how all of those things work so important for Anne as well when she was in a position of power. and how she was able to draw on this amazing education. Margarite, Dong Gu Lamo We know that Anne admired Marguerite and and pretty elevated ways. Marguite was later, I think correctly labeled as a reforming Catholic So she was someone who embraced a lot of The aspects of reform that were starting to percolate around Europe but in quite a different way from, say, Martin Luther, or John Calvin, some of the other performers who became a lot more prominent. her focus seems to have been a lot more around social reform and social justice being tied to cleaning up ption in the church. She had a real humanist event, I think. fair to say and she wrote about a very personal relationship. Jesus, so that idea that the individual can read the Bible and have a personal relationship with God and with Jesus t the same time she doesn't Row the baby out with the bath water in terms of rejecting a lot of the traditions that are handed down in the life of the church And and we can certainly see that kind of mixture in and as well in terms of where she puts her priorities and um how she centers access to the Bible in English how she champions education and some alleviation of poverty. We don't know where Anne might have ended up if she had been able to live out a full life, if she had continued to engage with. the different reform ideas that were circulating Certainly, it seems from her actions and activities that She was very much in that reforming Catholic sort of bent that we see in murgy And you think that Anne's faith was actually a key ingredient of Henry's desire for her Yeah And again, that isn't normally how The story is fored We know that Henry believed that his marriage with Catherine Varraagon was ultimately being judged as being against God's will believed that he was on God's wrong side for having married Catherine. The proof was in the procreational pudding There were no sons and Henry was interpreting that as God's judgment against him. So We can see how A woman with strong religious principles whoses first in scripture, who is reading about religious matters, how that would be appealing to Henry, how then they get locked into this six year fight with splitting the English church from Authority of Rome. and how they get to you know, really be at one another's side through this massive religious project that We have reason to understand Henry believed would write his relationship with God and therefore England's relationship with God. He and Anne would very much have subscribed to that vision of the monarchy that was so entrenched at that time That people of England, their relationship God was in a pretty critical way dependent on the monarch's relationship with God. Of course that's not usually what we Here we hear instead that Anne was angling for the crown and She refused with Henry until she got what she wanted Yes, you're right, we absolutely get a very different picture And the many powerful lines in your book This one I found perhaps especially potent but speaks to how the story is normally told You say Blame Anne for Henry's uncontrollable desire to have her is both profoundly disturbing and disturbingly predictable alk me through that. Yeah. mean When we look at Henry's Letters to Anne. when we look at Henry's personality, as revealed right across his reign We know that he was someomeone who got what he wanted and at the cost of a lot of people's heads And yet to turn that into somethingomet that Anne did to him she was in some sense responsible for That just really pains my heart. But unfortunately, as I said in the book, done all to familiar narrative that we buy into, she was a problem. So instead, you're painting a picture of Anne appealing to Henry because of the profundity of her faith. Is that right? What did she offer him? Why did she appeal? Yeah, it really seems like for those early years of their relationship that he set her on quite a pedestal. He sought out her opinion. He was willing to read materials that he had previously banned that had been judged as heresy written by people who were living in exile from England because their opinions had been so contrary to the party line of England prior to Anne He really seemed to value her opinion. highly of her and her principles and Obviously there was an upside to his high opinion of her, but It's also really fall off of those high pedestals that you get put on. and u we can see how as highly as he thought of her but ends up being to her detriment when he turns on her. Can we talk about and desire her in a life I know. that were short on sources. But what do you posit? And to what extent did Anne have freedom to choose? I think that and matic in terms of Understanding P is negotiated. She would have seen that from Queen Claude to France Queen Clae had quite a bit of intellectual freedom. and an ability to read and to seek out new ideas, but she was able to do that because she also turned a blind eye to her husband's philanderine and she had lots of babies and Understood See you exactly have the luxury of being able to marry for love She knew what was expected of her as a noble daughter so she would marry in a way that would advance her family's position And then when she gets into this very strange situation of attracting the attention of the king You're right, we don't have a lot of access to her inner life, but we do have a number of instances where it is clear that she comes to interpret Henry's interest in her position that it affords her. as having being ordained by God. and toward the end of her life She is part of drawing a really interesting parallel between herself and Queen Esther from the Bible and The verse associated with Queen Esther is perhaps you've been brought to this place for just such a time as this. In other words Maybe God has brought you into this position of power so that you can help your people, so that you can make a difference And I think it is fair to posit that and understood that in a very deep way, that she understood that She needed to use this position of power in order to to and to help her people and to stand up for what she believed in. Yes, I mean, I really think that you're on to something with that. I think that's really strong. Following Professor Tracy Adams's work, you make an interesting point about the timeline of Henry and Anne's relationship. Can you talk me through this? Okay, so I found this just so exciting and compelling as I was working on this book and again, It is the work of Professor Adams So I want to make sure I'm representing it accurately We don't have official records noting Henry's interest in Anne until May of fifteen twenty seven, I believe And then by August, It's seems to be clear that he is pursuing an annulment of his marriage to Catherine of Aragon and that it is becoming known that the woman that he wants to marry is Anne Of course, we also have all of these love letters love, I would put in quotation marks these letters from Henry to Anne that aren't dated and historians have ve done a lot of arguing about how we should understand the chronology of those letters dating of those letters has often hinged on the idea that in the one letter, he seems to be offering to make in his mistress And so it has been assumed that must have happened before the decision that he was going to marry her, that H offered to make her his mistress She refused And so he upped the auntie and offered to marry her instead Adams argues that This letter is written in French and that the French word Matadas. in fifteen twenty seven was not a word that means mistress in the modern sense that we think of it that in fact it was a word that was used for a man too describe his intimate partner and even his wife So she argues that the timeline is actually quite different That. Henry in fifteen twenty seven went very quickly from noticing in to deciding that he was going to marry Anne and that in fact, this lines up better. with some of Th. other information that we know to be so essential at this time, which is that Henry, wasn't particularly in the market for more mistresses and illegitimate children. The lack of male offspring for Henry was a religious problem And he was in the market for a wife was going to write his relationship with God and who was going to provide him with legitimate offspring, especially boys that would be the proof H relationship with God was on a better track Sometimes life will get you stressed out. Lucky you can always count on text now. Text now Free talk, free text, free five G, and they'll never shut you off Just like I said, it's free. It's free. Text now's got your back. Nationwide No long term contracts, but I'll be nervous I' a service. Text now's got your back backls that's a purpose. No matter what comes next, you've got free talk and text with the text now app Wireless plans require the purchase of a SIM card, visit textnow dot com terms and conditions. As the saying goes, if these walls could talk. And on the Bwixt the Sheets podcast, we make it our business to discover what happened behind closed doors, and even more importantly, in the bedrooms of people all throughout history Kings, queens, mistresses, servants, and everyone in between We also get up close and personal with medieval aphrodisiacs, lethal Victorian makeup routines, and look at the scandalous lives of beloved children's authors. Nothing is off limits In other words, it's the best bits of history with me, Dr. Kate Lister. Listen to but twwixt the sheets the history of sex scandal and society twice a week every week, wherever it is that you get your podcasts, brought to you by the award winning network, History Hit wo thoughts in response to that. One is That Henry says in those letters that he has been struck for a year by the dart of love which Obviously per states the beginning of that relationship puts it back. I mean, historians have argued possibly to showve tide by february fifteen twenty six As you say, the letters are undated, and it is entirely possible that those letters have been muddled in terms of the order, it's hard to know. But certainly, in the time that he's writing the letters, he is seeming to say that he has loved her for a year, which makes the sort of immediacy or lightning speed of the decision to marry slightly less immediate or lightning speed So these are just sort of challenges really for you to think about. The second is and I'm interested in your response Is there a danger do you think of trying to present Anne as whiter than white? One of the reasons we love her is that she is complex and do you think there's a possibility here that we're We're whitewashing her. Yeah. I mean, I think those are two interesting points. So again, I'm presenting what I have Adams Professor Adams talk about and she, I believe, argues that letter referring to the one year is probably more accurately dated to fifteen twenty eight. That is like well into the annulment slash marriage conversation at that point So that's her argument. and I think it's an interesting one I have no interest in white watchatching An and I do kind of address that at various points throughout the book because There has been a tendency at times never seems to have gotten a lot of ground, but almost to cast Anne Boleyn as a saint of the Reformation or a martyr of the Reformation And I think that doesn't do anybody a particular service to try to edit out her feister and more ambitious sorts of qualities because you know, I find those qualities really relatable and interesting and part of what makes her fascinating. So Certainly I did try to balance out any of the challenges to some of those prevailing narratives about Anne with Also some of the reports of So behavior that is a little less than palace You've already alluded to the fact that Calling these letters love letters may be a misnomer. You say that Anne's was not a love story. It's a story about P, what do you mean? I think that There are a couple of things that I mean and it has to do with An and it has to do with Henry and it has to do with all of the people who were a part of their story in one way or another there's something really interesting and problematic about how we have framed stories of a powerful man's desire for a woman as being ultimate love story. you know, that if The man wearing crown picks you then you have reached the highest a female pentacle and have achieved that fairy tale ending I think that's problematic in general, but it sure is problematic when we're talking about a woman who is ultimately killed by her husband that he was just in love with her in this unbridled way thinkink is a really toxic way of framing a story about a man who had to have this woman and then had to get rid of this woman too, it's been mayaybe unwise for us to of Henry as this sort of foolish, obese silly king who married all these women and killed a few of them and sort of followed his whims and Sometimes I think we've let him off the hook for some of the decisions that he's made because we've sort of framed it as being the machinations of people around him and you know At the end of the day Henry was no puppet of anyone Henry was a man who was used to getting in his way And again, I think that there's an argument for saying that his whole pursuit of Anne was about securing the continuation of the Tudor line It was about how he stacked up in the eyes of God And it was not especially ruled by unbridled lust or feelings that were out of control was about securing his reign in the way that he believed was the best way possible. Isn't it possible that it's both that it's both lust and conviction Yeah, of course it is Maybe he did spend those six years Lusting after Anne, couldn't wait to consummate this relationship. Maybe there's something there I find it interesting that questions of impetency haunted him throughout his reign I find it. Interesting how insecure he was about his lack of offspring I find it interesting that a man who got what he wanted in just about every other instance would have been willing to this supposed unbridled lust on the back burner for six years while he waited around for Anne there were more important things to him than his sexual desire. And I think that we've maybe gotten the story a little bit skewed. Yes, but it does feel interesting for me to say to a priest that it's Presumably it is possible to have really strong sexual desire, but have it held in check by beliefs that are more important to you. than the fulfilling of the desire, right know here You're absolutely right. That's definitely true I just I' taken in combination with some of the other things that we know about Henry and his reign. I just wonder whether he was maybe not quite the lover boy that we've assumed him to be Yes, and he certainly has far fewer mistresses than say France is the first of France just doesn't seem to be a priority in so much as it is elsewhere Let's move on then to talk about break with Rome and the creation of the Church of England. How much does this have to do with Anne So She's often as We sort of go into the history books in the church when we study church history. She is often discussed as a catalyst of the English Reformation But u I think that those who have looked at her influence a little more closely are right instead to frame her as an archetype the Church of England And I think that we can point to a couple of particularly important contributions that she makes are of great significance and lasting impact. So I've already sort of mentioned her reading material that she was able to pass along to Henry VIII, that he was open to this reading material in ways that he hadn't beenen prior to Anne and There's one story in particular that of her passing along. a treatise by William Tyndale that helps to shift the conversation from one of convincing the pope in Rome to and all the marriage instead to a conversation about challenging the authority of the Pope and Rome and splitting the Church of England from a. So that's that lights the fire that becomes the English Reformation, but then there are two really important contributions that we can ascribe particularly to Anne and her influence and to her time in power that have that lasting impact. So the first is the normalizing of an English Bible So over the course of Anne's time at Henry's side. We go from English Bibles being burned and those who publish them and circulate them being brought up on charges. So we go from that to teen, thirty five the year before she dies. the first published English Bible and it's dedicated to King Henry VII and to Queen Anne that is a Pretty remarkable Jeff in terms of key piece of the evangelical agenda which is access to the Bible for all people in their own tongue in their own language probablyrobably the more significant place where we see An in that architect role is personnel. She has an eye for talent She has an interest in education and she seeks out people who are on the rise who are talented reformers. and she is able to get them into positions of power in really consequential ways in the English church And you know, we could list a remarkable resume of that she got into different positions and that kind of thing But I would name especially Thomas Cramer, who becomes the first Archbishop of Canterbury in The newew Church of England, the writer of the Book of Con Prayer, which is still used in the global Anglican commommunion today. and Matthew Parker And Matthew Parker and Thomas Crammer are named as two of the three theologians who are responsible for developing a distinctive Anglican thought. And two of those three people were Anne Boleyn Hiers They were people that she identified as talented and she helped to maneuver into positions of power quuite an incredible legacy that we can see in terms of how the the Church of England and its thought and its theology would be formed. My last point is a delicate one because by no means is there any sort of straight line that you can draw between the beliefs of Anne Boleyn and the Anglican church that we have today. It's obviously being such a twisty turny road but I do find it interesting. the Anglican church of today is known for as being that sort of middle way between reform and Catholicism And I find it interesting that that is a version of the church that Am Bleyn certainly would have recognized and and even practiced herself, that she was someone who continued in the traditions and sacraments of the church. and embraced spirit of reform alongside those traditions As the saying goes, if these walls could talk. And on the Bwixt the Sheets podcast, we make it our business to discover what happened behind closed doors, and even more importantly, in the bedrooms of people all throughout history Kings, queens, mistresses, servants, and everyone in between. We also get up close and personal with medieval aphrodisiacs, lethal Victorian makeup routines, and look at the scandalous lives of beloved children's authors. Nothing is off limits. In other words, it's the best bits of history with me, Dr. Kate Lister. Listen to but twwix the sheets the history of sex scandal and society twice a week every week, wherever it is that you get your podcasts, brought to you by the award winning network History Hit That's so interesting. Thank you for that You also have a different way of seeing her character in certain ways that she has been intduced You think the motive and turn against Cardinal Warsey is not the one that Wasy's servant George Cavendice Svant and first biographer imputes to her. What do you think it was that turned her against Walsey? It seems it seems to have been that for a number of years, Anne and Henry did see Wolsey as someone that they could work with. He was going to help them in their goal of splitting the church of being able to get married that There were various points at which Henry was the one who was waffling particularly on splitting from the authority of the Pope and we've definitely noted uh Henry was a lot less certain about those reform principles than Anne or some of the other movers and shakers in the English Reformation. He seems to have gotten cold feet at various points about making that final split. So it seems as if The move against Wolsey was really about holding Henry's feet to the fire I'm pursuing that ism with Rome And and she had a lot of allies in getting rid of the Cardinal as well because He had held such a Right position of power taking up all kinds of room at Henry's side and the power vacuum that getting rid of him would leave was appealing to a variety of bull in that inner circle including a few people who never worked with Anne or sided with Anne again after getting rid of Wolsey Cromwo is normally portrayed as Anne's ally, but you don't think so It's easy to think that they would have been allies because they were both reformers and Cromwell really did end up being the fixer in terms of securing the break from Rome and securing the marriage that Henry and Anne both had been working towards. So I think it's been easy to conclude that of course they would have been natural allies. But there isn't really any evidence to suggest that Cromwell ever saw himself as anything other than Henry's man. He doesn't seem to have forgotten what happened to Wolsey, who was his original employer. And It seems telling that he was not knighted at Anne's coronation I understand there are a lot of people who were knighted at that time of her coronation and he was not among them. So The fact that they ended up being enemies in a very public way maybe wasn't as surprising as as it seemed Yes. Well, I mean, that is one of the things that's sort of disputed. Of course, you and I both know that we could spend next four hours talking about the next question. so I'm going to let's not do that. But why at core do you think that Dan fell Yeah So definitely a lot of tangled up reasons, which is why we could spend the next four hours talking about it There were reasons why Henry was Newly insecure, certainly Catherine of Aragon dying in January of that year was no help to Anne, Henry was somebody who liked to have someone to blame and have in Catherine no longer available to be that target. That was a problem. Of course, that also shifted a lot of the political discussions and the discussions that were going on at all times with Spain and France and all of those European Alliances But I think that there really is a religious reason at the heart of Anne's fall as well that it is knotted up in that very public showdown between her and Cromwell about a month before she was arrested where, um She is getting her or in about the dissolusion of the monasteries and how those resources are to be used, that would be a continuation of a way of operating that we see throughout Anne's Ring, which is that she saw herself as sharing in power and decision making with Henry Uh, she saw herself in a political role. She didn't ever seem to shy away from having her opinions known horse. Also earlier that year was one more miscarriage and threeree years into her marriage with Henry And again, There are no princes. There's just a girl all of those things contribute to Anne falling off that pedestal that we talked about earlier where Henry had set her up on such a high place of esteem that she was this principled good woman who was going to fix his relationship with God And then three years in, it's still not happening and she is becoming more and more inconvenient and less and less aligned with what Henry sees himself wanting And so easy for Henry to cast her not just off the pedestal, but right into the pit of being charged with the most sinful, immoral embarrassing, humiliating. Um awful kinds of accusations that he could throw her away. Yes, it's so interesting, is for an age that thought about physical qualities of a person representing their characters who had looked on Henry's height and good looks and strength as an indication that he was born to be king then they would Transfer that to this idea of relationship between physicality and morality or sinfulness to the fact that Catherine had not had sons or the fact that Anne didn't. It becomes very fatialistic quite quickly, doesn't it? the physical how these things manifest in the physical realm testifies apparently to a deepest moral or spiritual truth according to sixteenth century ways of seeing things, and that means that Th go wrong and they're quite easily determined in their minds as being the cause of sinfulness Yeah, and you know, I think that that points to one of the other just fascinating things about time and maybe why it continues to be so captivating is that it really is a hinge time in terms of like those older ways of thinking still prevailing in so many ways even as we see the seeds of modernity beginning to be sown And I think it's easy to kind of get tricked. into overlooking those very deep seated pre modern ways of thinking that really did continue to hold so much currency. for Anne and for the people of that time. and As you come towards the end, you quote and follow the line of thinking of Natalie Gruniger, a friend of the podcast who said that