The Catastrophe at Flodden

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Join us each week and subscribe at your favorite podcast platform and YouTube We'll tell stories, we'll hear from some of the best, and we'll try to figure this out together. No Hello, I'm Professor Susanna Lipbskom and welcome to Not just the Tutors from History H A podcast in which we explore everything from Anne Boleyn to the Aztecs, from Holbein to the Huguenotos, from Shakespeare to Samuraise Relieved by regular doses of murdaths, espionage and witchcraft Not in other words, just the tudors But most definitely also the tudors In the summer of fourteen eighty eight, a teenage prince rode towards a battlefield where his father was about to die By the end of the day, the Crown of Scotland would sit on his head won through rebellion, bloodshed and an act that would haunt him the rest of his life The new king was James IV, and his reign would become one of the most remarkable and ultimately tragic in British history. James IV was one of the most effective, charismatic and dynamic of Scotland's kings, and one could argue, of all late medieval monarchs. He was no distant ruler. He travelled rellessly across his kingdom, dispensing justice in person, asserting authority where it was weakest, and learning the craft of kingship through experience rather than decree At the same time, he cultivated the image of a Rnaaissance prince, a patron of the arts, a sponsor of learning and a courtly figure who embraced spectacle as a form of power Nowhere was this more evident than his embrace of chivalry Through tournaments, pageantry and carefully staged performances, James projected himself as the ideal warrior king, drawing on Arthurian legend and even appropriating the symbols of his English rivals His marriage to Margaret, daughter of Henry VII in fifteen oh three, seemed to promise peace. But it also carried deeper ambitions, hinting at a broader vision of British kingship Yet this was a reign lived on a knife edge between diplomacy and rivalry, display, and danger. James balanced alliances with England and France tested the limits of his authority at home ultimately chose the path of war His story ends as it began on the battlefield At Flodden in fifteen thirteen where the king who'd spent his life embodying Shivaric ideals died among his men leaving a kingdom in shock and a legacy defined as much by brilliance as by fatal risk In this episode, I amm delighted to be joined by Michael Brown, prorofessor of Scottish History at the University of St. Andrews His latest book published last month is Scotland The Wars With Roses and European Politics, War and Diplomacy in the late fifteenth century Together, we'll explore how a fifteen year old king transformed himself into one of the most dynamic monarchs of his age and how he navigated a kingdom fractured by feuds and suspicion I'm profess, this is Anna Lippskom and this is not just the tutors from History Hook. Professor Brown Michael, welcome to the podcast Thank you very much for having me It's also strange at the beginning of the podcast where I tell an expert in a particular subject all about their subject and watch your face for signs of pid and dissidence You can put me right if I've gotsh anything wrong over the course of the episode. Let's start with James' beginnings, how he came to the throne, as I mentioned, it's a pretty rebellious beginning It is, it's in a way a product of his father's Eerros as King and the exasperation, I think that's felt towards James IId by a lot of his subjects who who's put up with his style of rule for over a quarter of a century and I think have come to the end of their tether. And do we know anything about how James III reacted when he heard his young son had joined the rebels? We don't, and we don't know directly about the relationship between the teenage James and his father What we can read between the lines, obviously is that there is a breakdown relations. Now had Prince James, as we'll call him, future James the Fth seems to be brought up in his mother's household, Margaret the daughter of the king of the Scandinavian kingdom, Christian I at Stirling Castle whereas his father spends most of his time and certainly identifies most closely with his residences in Edinburgh. So there's a kind of spatial between the two And there's evidence in the mid fourteen eighties that James III is actually interested in promoting his second son confusingly also called James arranging his marriage and seemingly, I suppose ation distancing himself from older son. and certainly the disputes between the prince and the king are part of the negotiations that take place during the Civil War Princes are looking for greater revenues, greater freedom of action So it's a father son clash in a way. and I wonder I think it must be a shock. Prince James leave Stirling Castle and directly joins the rebels. Whilst it must be a shock, I'm not sure once he thinks about it, James III would have been so surprised. And James III dies at the hands of low ranking soldiers in the heat of battle, doesn't he? That can't have happened to many European monarchs. Is that right? I mean, the truth is we don't know exactly what happens to James because nobody really wants to own up to it. Right So Parliament, when it meets later in fourteen eighty eight, the months after James' death, James III's death to try and clear up the mess says the king happened to be slain. you know, it's a kind of Euphemism, I think. and there are later graphic stories about a priest who the king asked to confess him drawing a dagger and stabbing him in the aftermath of the battle. James is killed on the field And there are certain people around the prince clearly want him dead Is it so un your Its three years after Richard II's death, the Battle of Bosworth It's just over a decade after Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy, the richest most influential prince of Western Europe is killed by the Swiss on a frozen battlefield You know, it's a few decades since the King of Poland, King of Hungary, Bohemia, Ladislas is killed by the Turks. So And this is obviously going to be a thing we come back do Kings lead armies and are on the battlefield and things happen to them. But I suspect James' death is not an accident Yes, so I I guess what I was thinking was unusual was that it was by someone of a low rank, but actually what you've said is the key to it, which is that wonderful use of the passive tse that he was slain. and I suppose serves the purpose if no member of nobility has the reputation of a murderer after the event. Yes. I mean, I think we're in prrinces in the Tower territory. Nobody owns up to the death of people for whom they can be regarded as regicides If somebody is known to have killed James, then what do you as the new King and the new King's regime do about it? Treating it as some kind of unfortunate accident clearly suits around James the Fce And how does This violent death of his father shape the early years of James I F' reign I think as you said in the introduction, it clearly has a traumatic effect on James as a Christian, as a person which he struggles to deal with later accounts accs from the next century, so a few decades James' death talkk about James having extracted from his lords, his supporters and oaths that they won't harm the king. therefore those lords in some way ly or passively have allowed the old king to be killed And I think James feels guilt. He confesses about his guilt, he's recorded, his confession And of course, the famous manifestation is that he chooses to wear an iron belt as a penance for his father's death and as a link to it for each year of his life. And That's attested by a lot of sources. It's depicted on a later illustration of the king. So it's clearly something that people believed the king had done. and I suspect that's because it's actually what happens. So yeah, James feels personal guilt about the way he becomes king. I mean, that's a very interesteresting shamed response. What does it tell you about his character? James's character, James I fourth' character, I think is something which is both manufactured and real. So as you were saying before, and as we'll talk about, he plays a role. He depicts himself in certain ways that are meant to send this image of kingsship But at the same time, he's clearly a person who of all ranks relate to. I think he's probably quite an emotional person and is able to lose his temper, but he is also able to win friends interested to make contact with his subjects, with v to his kingdom and to win them over. So I think that's the kind of person we're dealing with. and I wonder if the guilt part of that he's not a walled off cynical person. you know we're not talking you know, Henry VII might be a comparison where someone who is seems to be driven by the needs of state, perhaps through hard experience, James of four doesn't seem be like that. Now one might have expected after such an abrupt seizure of power that there would have been a kind of a marked demonstration of that power. but he seems to have taken a more measured approach How did he manage to sort of learn of kingship during his minority whilst you've got these sort of powerful factions vying for control Yeah, the next two years I think are an interesting statement. James is in his mid teens So by no means a child in fourteen eighty eight, but it takes him another really seven or eight years to be decisively in control of government to show himself very much driving policy. And as you say, in the interim, you're dealing with a regime which is not a minority, so you haven't got a formal Regency council but in which the king and his decisions are being shaped by groups of his subjects And James in a sense is choosing almost, or at least is acting like a figurehead at a much older age than his father or his grandfather actually showed themselves to be in control of the kingdom. So James chooses to take a back seat, he seems to spend his time pleasing himself, entertaining himself These councillors are having to, if you like, deal with him. He's not entirely passive and authority is coming from him in person But it's interesting and you know your point about James learning the art of kingship I mean, that's a very difficult thing to trace. We don't have the kind of sources that show that directly But in what James does as king What you can certainly say is he's learning very clearly from the mistakes his father made So his father was a withdrawn figure based himself in Edinburgh, chose not to travel around his kingdom. very core in terms of managing personal relationships. all his siblings clear dislike him and defy him in different ways, his sisters and his brothers James I Fth in a way is the opposite of that. He's learning from those mistakes and again, I think it might be about personality too And the lessons, I think of the opening years of the reign or in some sense allowing him to gauge The great people of his kingdom, his greatest subjects and find his way to kingship without being forced into acts of aggression, which again is the way his father and his grandfather have come to power. They've essentially acted against the people who were running the kingdom when they were children. So James the Fce, in a sense by easing himself into power could be quite a smart move It could be that he's lazy and prefers riding and hunting and having a good time Certainly lots of evidence to suggest that Clearly, he is also developing a sense of how he's going to run the kingdom and how It resolves some of those difficulties that his father has blundered into And one of the ways in which he is showing up much more than his father had done wasas this dispensing of justice as he travels across Scotland. Can you talk to me about that Yes. so from the mid fourteen nineties when James is taking. ive charge of the kingdom I think there's almost Ccerned to display his personal interest in the keeping of the peace So he travels around the kingdom. He's famous for traveling around the kingdom and encing justice, but also on pilgrimage. he goes on regular pilgrimages to shrines But Whithorn in Galloway so in the far southwest of the kingdom and to St. Dussk's shrine in Tayne which is just north of Inveres. So he's choosing sort of religious voyages to show himself to his subjects, but equally as you say rather than sitting in Edinburgh and waiting people to bring their cases to him, He goes out and dispenses justice as kings are supposed to do. Scottish kings are supposed to ride out in person to preside over courts in various parts of the realm They don't do it all the time and they have officers obviously who do that for them But there's a kind of underlying sense that the king should be visible performing his role as peacekeeper and judge. And I think probably what What's really quite telling is that when there are points of difficulty So when there are acts of either violence between families or defiance of royal ordinances, then James gets on his horse and goes there in person demonstrates that he's in charge and he'll damp down these things. And again, that's very different from his father who allowed in some senses, through his missteps almost fostered feuding to take place in various parts of the kingdom. So James determined to keep lid on any kind of disputes which are likely to get out of control physic. Paradox here though, because whilst he is coming across as a Peacemaker, peacekeeper. He's absolutely fascinated by warfare, by artillery, by military innovation How did this passion influence his campaigns and his reputation as a warrior king Again, I think it's part and parcel of being U a king. or a great prince in the fifteenth and early sixteenth century to see war as one of your responsibilities. very much part of the aristocratic and royal education U And it's at a point in military technology when there are significant changes taking place in which clearly James has a deep personal interest So Dplaying a martial image, I think is is about personal choice. Interestingly later writers writers from just after James's death in the fifteen twenties. contontrast him with his father on this score too. Now James I third does lead arrmies does take the field. But somehow, James I Fth is able again to say create this image that he is the warrior king and his father been has tried to avoid that. And I think that's partly to do with external relations, which we might come back to. Yeah, I think James likes Dums. He likes artillery. It's at a point where you're seeing the Scottish Kingdom as other kingdoms Thking military developments on the continent, particularly in France and thinking about new types of new types of cannon cast in bronze much lighter muchuch easier to move and deploy on the battlefield than the great forged iron guns of the fifteenth century. So he's interested in that and we find evidence of him The House of the Bombards, the House of the Guns in Edinburgh Castle watching these things being made and tested And of course his other huge interest is in the creation of a group of royal ships. H of a a Navy for Scotland and Partly, I think that is because he sees the value of that as a military tool In the fifteenth century, the English have been able to use maritime power to inflict serious damage on Scotland during times of war particularly entering the F of Fourth and raiding along the coast of that So James has fortifications built around the force to try and protect that rooutot but also I think the ships of a way of showing his concern for the defense of his kingdom, but also as a means to project Tour But in themselves, they're objects of status. They are things that reflect the kind of king he is and his Great ships, first the Margaret and then of course, the great Michael described by a Scottish writer as the greatest ship that ever sailed in England and France. And I think probably bigger than anything the French or English kings time. is a beerm moths. It's a huge vessel, probably about one hundred and eighty foot long with about forty heavy guns. a large crew of I think over a hundred gunners and another hundred and something mariners. So it's an enormous ship, much bigger in a sense than Scott's knee. It's an object of prestige and power. and of course, it prompts Henry VII build his great ship, the Henry Grasadieu which is built very and very similar scale. And he's very keen for his ambassadors to get a look at the Michael, which is sitting out in the forth. And James has it moved behind the islands sitting in the forore. so the English can't see it. Whereas when the French ammbassador comes, he dines on board the ship with James. So it's a diplomatic tool. It's a way of saying o, you know, I'm very powerful, I'm very strong, you can't see it. It's hidden so you don't know how threatening it might be. So prerestige, diplomacy, power and interest in military technology, I think are all wrapped up in this naval project, which is hugely expensive. I mean, the Great Michael is said to cost around thirty thousand pounds Scots, which It's several years on income for the king. T talking about diplomacy, fifteen years into his reign, he marries And this feels like a turning point. How did this alliance with England Ease tensions and also sow seeds for future political change? Yes. I think it is a central event, obbviously, in its ultimate implications, it has huge consequences. The marriage to Margaret Tudor, the daughter, the eldest child and daughter of Henry VIh and Elizabeth of York links James to the English Royal dynasty and ultimately becomes the route by which James VI will become James I of England So lookingoo ahead. That's exactly a century You know we can see the significance of this match I think in it in its actual negotiation, it's also significant James I F's emergence as an active leader of his kingdom comes in the context of war with England particular his support of the prettender to the English throne Perkin Warbeck in the mid fourteen nineties James has him come to Scotland chooses to recognize him as the rightful King of England arranges his marriage to a member of the Scottish nobility and on his behalf leads to invasions of Northumberland, the North of England which don't achieve very much militarily. But I think are a demonstration of What James thinks is important and going back to your point about military technology and warfare It's the prospect of a war with England, which seems to, if you like, push James into this leading role rather than anything else So I think that signifies the importance of that. And again It's another area where he's differentiating himself from his father James III has repeatedly held out the prospect to England off a marriage alliance, of a long truce between the two kingdoms ending the centuries long warfare between England and Scotland. Chames the Fth bins that policy and chooses to go to war with England. So in terms of po in Warbeck, do you think we should conclude Therefore that this is more about James' strategic ambitions and his intentions with regard to England than that he is recognizing Perkin Warbeck as one of the princes in the toower, which is something that's often argued. It's quuite hard to disentangle those things. I think the value of Perkin to James is that whilst he never recruits much support in England Beyond England, in Ireland and on the continent, he has been recognized He is of If you like a powerful diplomatic tool that you can use to say, look I can affect what's happening in England and therefore can affect what's happening in the finely balanced politics of continental Europe in the fourteen nineties So I think it's a kind of card in the game if you like for James, and the prospect of Perkin turning up at his court is something which whether he believes him or not he has to kind of invest in. This is this is what the position he's taken. If he says, Oh, this guy's not really is thrown, then he immediately loses his value The fact that he's at the Scottish courourt mean that he's being approached by Henry, but also by Ferdinand and Isabella in Spain by Maximilian. in the low countries and the empire, that people are interested in what Scotland is going to do and what its policy is. So I think you can see it on those terms. And I think James, going back to your earlier point keen to have a war with England, to demonstrate to Henry and to demonstrate to his own subjects that he's performing the traditional role of Scotland Kings. That's so interesting. So he's sort of centering himself, James by his attitude to Perkin Warbeck, because of course one could actually say byy comparison to Maximilion or even if Ferdinand Isab of Spain supporting him much more. As you said, he's giving him a wife, he's backing him when he goes into battle. This is not just in name only, the support Yes, I think the marriage is really interesting in that respect that it's something that hasn't been offered by Perkin's other bers, a French king or Maximilians. So it does tie Perkin more to The Scottish elite, if you like and may signify, I suppose, a greater investment. And I think the truth is You know, if you look at what Maximilian or Charles theI say when Perkin is, if you like working for them They recognize him as the claimant too. Once he's gone and ultimately I think everybody essentially says Ohh well, he wasn't really. But whilst he's actually in your kingdom it's in your interest to do that. But you're right, the marriage, I think does take additional steps And I suppose I mean, Maximilian does provide him with chips and he goes first to Kent and then to Ireland. with those ships and tries to raise support. So degree of a degree of military support Again, it's that difference between Scotland and other realms in terms of relations with England, which is as a land border You know, there's a direct physical contact point and therefore an exile based in Scotland on one level could be seen as more wearing. On another levelult is a long way from the places you've got to get to as a prettender to actually take the throne but sitting as a latent threat in Edinburgh or Stirling clelearly preys on Henry Tudor's mind. H ACAS powers the world's best podcasts Here's a show that we recommend If you've ever dreamed of quitting your job to take your side hustle full time, listen up This is Nikla Matthewsacomee, host of Side Hustle Probe, a podcast that helps you build and grow from passion project to profitable business. Every week, you'll hear from guests just like you who wanted to start a business on the side. If you can't run a side hustle, you can't run a business. They share real tips. And so I started connecting with all these people on LinkedIn and I saw Target supplier diversity was having office hours. Real advice. Procrastination is the easiest form of resistance and the actual strategies they use to turn their side hustle into their main hustle. 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Listen to but twwix the sheets of the history of sex scandal and society twice a week every week, wherever it is that you get your podcasts, brought to you by the award winning network, History Hit And soon What's happening then with the decision to marry Henry theIventh's daughter. How is that policy of deliberate warfare antagonization of England being resolved into a marriage alliance? Yes. I mean, that is an interesting turnaround. And I think I suppose there are two ways to think about this. James has to marry He's, you know, he's in his twenties. And he needs to be the dynasty. So throughrough the fourteen nineties, in fact since James became king in fourteen eighty eight, there' been repeated efforts by Parliament and the Scottish King to negotiate a marriage from with a bride who is seen as being sufficiently prestigious for the Scots And obviously, you know, if you think of the geographical location of Scotland and the opportunities and possible matches This is a problem for the Scots. and an English match has been suggested beenggested from James since he was a baby It suggested in the fourteen nineties two, but not of a high enough stature, I think, to interest the Scots What James actually seems to want is a marriage to one of Ferdinand and Isabella's daughters course would parallel the marriage Prince Arthur Catherine of Aragon O obviously then Henry, the future Henry VI and castor of Maragon. So he wants a marriage into the Spanish royal family, the rising power of Western Europe. And presumably that might have happened if their elderest daughter Isabel hadn't died and they married their younger daughter to the king of Portugal instead. They had one daughter available until that happened. Yeah. I mean, I think there is and that's the answer they give to the Scots', Well, you know, we would, but there's no available daughter. But on the other hand, I wonder if they ever would have seen that as their best option Is this just a kind of thing you say to the Scots to keep the conversation going. without necessarily committing. Certainly from relatively early on, Ferdinand and Isabella are suggesting a marriage between Henry's elder daughter. James said the Spanish courourt in a way that the group that are suggesting this match is a means of creating a peace between England and Scotland and therefore hopefully releasing Henry the S' to intervene against France and the the League that's been created, the wholeo League has been created against the French king. So Spanish interests We're very well informed about clearly are pushing a better relationship between the two kingdoms Obviously it doesn't work in fourteen ninety six to seven when you know, the Spanish have Ambassadors at the Scottish Court, particularly Pedro de Alea But he's unable to persuade James not to go to war and actually accompanies the Scottish arrmy into England And I think in a way, Whats what changes is The fright, I think, to a degree that James gets in fourteen ninety seven when he's lucky in a way that a large army that Henry has raised to invade Scotland is diverted because of the rebellion in Cornwall attacks Rebellion, which is prompted by the cost of the war And again, an exchange of indecisive campaigning between him and the Earl of Surrey there are risk involved in that too. So James One contemporary said James has seen the ears of the wolf. So he's seen the kind of monster just over the horizon and it gives him a bit of a fright't he He kind of backs down. So I think there's that side of it I think there's also the side that Henry thinks can't go on like this Henry's concerns with regard to external relations are always about security. They're always about maintaining his hold on his dominions and warding off threats And James has shown the potential to be a threat and therefore, okay, so a marriage that links him to my family price to be paid to remove that threat to my security from the North. So I think on both sides, I think the Perkin Warbeck episodes of War of fourty ninety six to seven. makes a degree of reappraisal. And I think contrasting with James IId, where James III, in a sense goes into peace with England pose as a sort of supplicant as someone who's setting aside his continental relationships and putting all his investment in England. James the Fth never does that He's not making an alliance and a peace treaty with England at necessarily the expense of backing away from his other relationships And that' that's a balancing act that he has to carry off. And in a sense, you could argue partartlyy is responsible for the disastrous end of the reign. but as a policy It has a lot of benefits for him as a king As well as actual warfare There is quite a lot of mock warfare in the forms of tournaments and js. appears to use chivalry as a political tool How is he drawing on the joust on the spectacle as a way of asserting his dynastic ambitions I think there is a very clear sense of James from the mid fourteen nineties of bothoth, I think, again, enjoying this kind of activity, but also creating an Iage of him as a king and of his kingdom around these kind of Blaze So for example, when Pedro de Aela, the Spanish ammbassador writes about James Clearly very impressed, you know he's relating this image of a king back to Ferdinand and Isabella as someone who needs to be taken seriously. James has made him into a friend. shown him trust and taken him with him on his voyages And in return, the ILO is thinking is writing to much more powerful rules than saying, you know, James is someone to be taken seriously. personal level And I think if you look at the ceremonies around Margaret Tudors arrival in Scotland. from the very point she crosses the border ke to demonstrate that the kind of habitual English disparagement of Scotland is a poorest kingdom in Christer trree Now, that may be running against the tide, but when they turn up the embassy turns up or the partarty to Greet her turns up They're dressed in their finest clothes. It's a large number of prelates and noblemen who escort her to Edinburgh. She stays just outside Edinburgh at Dalkeeith Castle. Pen James turns up. notot dressed in his finery but dressed in his hunting gear you know, again, it's like this casual drop in, you know, first meeting with with his new future bride is not being presented as something which is stiff and formal. He's going with the kind of personal approach. I'm off duty, but I'd like to meet you before we do all the kind of formal stuff And again, you, you know I think they glimpses of the king's personality in a sense that he's someone who recognizes the value of behaving at different levels to different audiences and in different contexts. when they enter Edinburgh, again You've got the kind of ceremonial you get with these kind of formal entries into rooyal cities royal towns. againgain with jousting a joust between two knights for a lady in a kind of mock arthurian setting which clearly is something that James himself feels very drawn to. So Yeah, the ceremonial mock military. imagery of monarchy is something that James is obviously attached to and then As you get into the next few years, you have these big set piece tournaments in which James himself plays a part big joust in front of Stirling Castle. in a kind of, again, an Arthurian setting. Dirling is For the Scots, a kind of identifiable Arthurian site. they call it Snowden They link it to the site of Camelot. and James jousting there is the wild knight trying to win the bllack lady, a woman who seems to come from from Africa, either Sub Saharan Africa or North Africa and who's presented as sur prirze in this tournament know James is building himself into a kind of shivaric ethos of knight errant masked champions jousting for the honor of a lady. So yeah, it's something he enjoys, I think But again, it's about binding you to your nobility with values that aren't simply material or pragmatic, they are ideological and symbolic course of this he appropriates English royal symbols. The Tudor Rose, St. George Was this Bold Or was it just idiculously risk And how did the English kings respond I'm not sure we know how they respond directly. I think It's a very interesting relationship that's created. I think there's a danger that we know This is going to be to do with the succession, that we tend to look at everything James I F does in terms of his family and his relationship with the Tudors, in terms of that long running succession issue that will go through the next century I'm not sure it can be so apparent in the fifteen hundreds. now obviously after the death of Arthur Prince of Wales. thenen Only Henry, the future Henry VI remains as a male heir And should he die, Margaret Tudor, his older sister and her husband might be the logical succession. Now, Whether the English would go for a Scottish king succeeding in fifteen seven fifteen eight Uh fifty nine in the way that they do in sixteen three, I think it is a very different question. A lot of water passes under the bridge between those two dates Clearly James is both I mean, you could look at it in a way in way you say James is very proud of his connection to this other royal dynasty. that what he's doing in a sense is playaying honor to his wife and to his wife's family in the way that say Henry VIII uses the imagery of the Castillion Royal familyam, the pomegranate, for example, as symbol of his own kingship and his marriage to Catherine of Aragon. So We don't have to see it as competitive. You could see it as symbolic of a new relationship between the two kingdoms, the fifteen The treaty is called a Treaty of perpetual peace It's the first formal ending of a war that's been going on for hundred and seventy years from the thirteen thirties without a break. So this is a new era. You know, on one level, it is about it is about kind of celebrating. claceness But obviously from fifteen oh nine with the succession of Henry VII There is a competitive element between the two kings in the next four years, a relationship between them is prickly and difficult. There' been tensions before Henry theII dies but there's a sense in which James and Henry the second. recognize relationship From fifteen oh nine, I think Again don't want to read things backwards But there is a degree of greater competition between two kings in a way who are very similar to each other in the way they understand their role and their offers. They're both militaristic. they're both in some ways good at reaching out beyond the elites to a wider audience too. So they're playing a similar game of kingship and maybe that is going to produce greater confrontation One thing we should say about James' reign is that his court becomes of Renaissance culture. Can we talk a bit about his cultural patronage and how It reinforced his royal image Yes. So James, again is part and parcel of that sense of monarchy being about display and the king's person as being something which is Charismatic and was motivational for his subjects. And James I fourth clearly understands that. I mean, there's a caveat here From a Scottish perspective, the records we have for James's household spending are much better than for any of his predecessors So we know what James does, we know what he spends his money on. and to a degree, we can see kind of personal interests and personal activities that we just really don't have for his predecessors. So So part of this image is about evidence clelearly Near contemporary writers highlight a range of activities that James is personally interested. He's interested in medicine, he's interested in dentistry, may pull people's teeth out. himself to see how it's done, things like that. show that. greatest thing to do, but he's also interested in natural science and natural wonders He's very interested in alchemy He has a an Italian friar John Damiian at his court and paays him a lavish pension for various experiments most famously trying to fly. He flies from the Wall of Stirling and falls into a midden rubbish heap just below the walls of the castle Yeah, James have an inquiring mind again. It's an era of Scientific inquiry and James is part of that I think if you're looking to understand James's If you like attempt to create a more imposing image of kingship, then you look at his architecture, you look at the palaces that he has constructed or reconstructed he builds a great hall Edinburgh Castle He starts the expansion of the palace at Holllyrood at the other end of what we call the Royal Mile now partarticularly L Lisco where the great purpose built royal palace begun by his great grandfather James I first is transformed into an enclosed palace with these Very ornate, even in that kind of ruined form royal apartments with the quQueen's apartments sitting above the king's apartment with this interesting lattice window that allows light to fall on where the royal presence would have been in the inner reception chamber He's creating settings for monarchy And you know, if you want to see the way in which we can sort of envisage that then Stirling Castle, where the Great haall has been reconstructed after centuries of occupation by the British army. into something like the hall that James had built in fifteen five, fifteen six It's an enormous internal space capable of housing much the whole royal court and hosting lavish entertainment. It's a setting for a king who wants to be seen in his own space as a presiding as a dominant figure. And I think that tells you quite a lot about the way James of Force is trying to create a modern attractive opposing image of kingship Howdy, Howdy Ho and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fan Girls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson. And I'm Stehven, your bookish internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy. And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Missborn. But here's the catch. Stehven here has not read Missborn before. That's right, hey, Hey. So each week, you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Stephven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert, he'll be wrong. News Flash, I'm never wrong. 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Listen to but twwix the sheets of the history of sex scandal and society twice a week every week, wherever it is that you get your podcasts, brought to you by the award winning network, History Hit Now, you've told us about the Treaty of perpetual peeace So what then leads to war with England in fifteen thirteen It's a range of things point needs to be made that I mentioned before that whilst he's reading a peace treaty with England He's not closing the door to what we regard as England's traditional enemy, the kingdom of France His father has done that. hisis father has chosen England overver France And that's been very unpopular with a lot of his subjects and there's been part of the reason for James' difficulties in the latter parts of his wr an eventual downfall James IV, in the early years of his reign renews the French alliance. And Although he makes peace with England, he doesn't ever make any move away from that. At point of the Treaty of Perpetual peeace in fifteen oh two, that's not really problematic. Anglo French relations are in a relatively stable period, a relatively amicable period I think the Navy fits into James' approach in this respect. So It's a means by which he can see himself projecting Scottish power without going to war with England So by having ships and James has been involved in interventions in Scandinavia, for example, hisis mother is a Scandinavian princess and he tries to send military help to his uncle, who's the king of Denmark, Norway. doesn't work very well. and I think that may be a reason why he want bigger and better ships So the Navy is a means by which you can keep peace with England whilst not being marginalised by not being ignored by other European kingdoms. But it's obviously you know, uh point of difficulty with the English crown, that James is keeping the alliance with France and is clearly If you like, never committing himself solely to good relations with England So that's a kind of niggling doubt. and the French King Louis XI pays quite significant sums to Janes in subsidies and sends expert ship rights to help build ships. So clearly, the French King is kind of implicit in this policy too. So The English must regard James as not entirely safe, I think during the fifteen hundreds Points of friction do develop after Henry VIII becomes king. I suppose on one level a minor issue that that Henry VIII refuses to release quest to argtgt, his sister, quQueen Margaret, of her mother's jewels, which are part of Henry's bequest to her. And James and one assumes Margaret both see this as insulting So that's it's a small issue, but you wonder again about the personalities involved There are issues in terms of maritime friction, particularly Scottish piracy or privateering against various ships or ships of various nations in the North Sea. and the English Admiral Edmund Howard being responsible for the death of one of these leading privateers, Andrew Barton. And again, it's another point of friction smallm scale violence on the border. So there are lots of niggly little pressure points of the kind of always created problems between England and Scotland. I think There's nothing that means that James has to go to war with Henry I think James goes to war with Henry eam twelve to thirteen because he wants to partartly, I think because Henry himself is very keen to go to war and to participate in a European war. He leads his army royal to Calais and then to Northeastern France in fifteen thirteen and At that point, James dispatches the fleet It sails north around Scotland down the Irish Sea. Bombard Carrick Ferguss castle and then puts into to Scotland before James angrily orders it to sail to France. I think the idea is that the Scottish shep will support the French in maritime warfare against the English and the Channel which may be outside the terms of the peace. It may allow James to make kind of proxy war without committing himself to conflict But at some point in the summer of fifteen thirteen, James clearly decides that he wants to lead the army into Northern England. It's a decision, obviously to have terrible consequences. but It's not necessarily out of line with his predecessors short. Incursions into Northern England which do damage and then largely withdraw. like James had done in the fourteen nineties of what his grandfather James II did in the fourteen fifties. It's a way, know then you write to everybody in Europe and say, I've invaded England, I've destroyed this many castles, you know, I took this much land and managed to get back without any losses. And so you present it as a kind of military victory without any risk. So again decision to invade England in itself is not necessarily problematic. It's James' decision to remain in England and allow Th is in the absence of Henry VI to muster an army U the Earl of Surrey allow it time in a sense to outmanoeuver him and to catch him an on English soul. That is a mistake. Up to that point everything is in a way by the playbook And I'm struck by the difference We have pictures of Henry VIII at the Battle of the Spurs in fifteen thirteen at the center of the action, which was a complete fiction because he is not allowed to fight But James absolutely is insisting on leading his army personally and That is one of the reasons why the Battle of Llauden is so devastating for Scotland So why Qion David Lindseay, one of his heralds who knew him quite well as a royal servant, describes it as a willful misgovernance of his own person. Maybe his blood is up. In the fourteen nineties talking about the warfare, then Pedro de Ala, the Spanish ammbassador writ said he's had to hold on to James by the coat charging off with his men in the attack on the castle Again, it may be personality. It's also about the way the Scots are fighting So the Scots are fighting almost entirely on foot with the heavily armed nobility in the front rank. carrying big wood'en vices, big wooden shields. as a means to kind of neutralize English archy, which the Scots identify as kind of the biggest problem they've had facing the English in open battle H nobility oront fighting in the front rank, which is why the losses amongst the nobility and the defeat are so catastrophic and James chooses to place himself alongside his nobles, the head of his division with His illgitimate son, the Archbishop of St. Andrews. fighting alongside him. So it's partly about the way the Scots fight. I mean, you're right, Henry is dissuaded or prevented from type participating in the battle of the Surs think he wants to fight there And actually Maximilian is more involved about he's much older man at that stage, but he's still on the battlefield It's we're in that period where alongside the development of the state, if you like, of the bureaucratic state It's still an era as we've been seeing of charismatic kship and part of that is Kings leading on the battlefield. taking the risk of that alongside their men. So you know in the next few years you've got Francis I at the Battle of Mariano leading charges against the Swiss decade later, you have him captured on the battlefield in the course of charging against the Spanish at Pavia So James's death in that context is maybe less surprising. not fighting a horse, I suppose would make things rather more difficult when things turn very ugly as they do on the field of Lauden You know, the scale of the catastrophe and in a way decision to stay on English soil be read as almost the products of his own success that he is a king who his nobility will stay with and follow into battle Again contrasting him with his father when in fourteen eighty two, Richard Gke Glouter, the future Richard III leads an invasion of Scotland James III is clearly preparing his army to fight in the Scottish borders near the town of Lauda his noility to arrest him dearting back to Edinburgh, the army disperses. They do not trust James III to lead them in battle That's a contrast in a sense you could say, well, that that shows to James the F' advantage, but it means they're all there possibly disagreeing with the king, but dying with him So yes, describe the scale of the catastrophe and I want to ask you whether you think Battle of Flodden was a psychological turning point in Scotland's history. I mean, it's catastrophic in terms of the lives of the king and a large proportion of the higher nobility of Scotland Earls and Lords of Parliament are killed you by the dozens in the front rank of those battles, very few escape It has been pointed out that actually most of these casualties have adult. heirs who are left behind. So if you're looking for a kind of collapse in terms of A aristocratic leadership, it's perhaps less marked than, I suppose previous generations sometimes argue king's death leaving behind you an infant son is obviously going to shape Scottish politics in the next decade I think it can be overdone. I think You know the length of the minority and the extent to which you're seeing both French and English intervention in Scotland during the minority problematic and with hindsight seems to be of a new vulnerability. of the Scottish Kingdom and in European politics I that is developing partly because of the power of sixteenth century states to project their military resources. So particularly perhaps for the French to be able to send large scale forces to support in Scotland in the fifteen tens and fifteen twenties and again in the fifteen forties and fifteen fifties when you've had the minority of Mary quQueen of Scots So you can see Flodin as the start of this era of to vulnerability in Scotland like other medium sized states across Europe becoming more pressed by They're more powerful neighbours. It's an age of empires, I suppose we might reduce it down to On the other hand, and I think a lot of recent work has been done on the reign of James the four's son, James thet. King who in a sense, if anything, takes James' gains