Conflict, Expansion, and King Philip's War

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I'mrofess Susanna Lipbskom, and welcome to Not just the Tutors from History Hood podcast in which we explore everything from Anne Boleyn to the Aztecs, from Holbein to the Huguenotose, from Shakespeare to Samuraise. relelieved by regular doses of murder, espionage and witchcraft. Not in other words just the tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors A leaking wooden ship, a brutal Atlantic crossing, a freezing coastline at the edge of the known world, and a tiny group of English religious separatists gambling everything on the hope that God had chosen them for a new beginning The story of the Mayflower has become one of America's founding myths. The reality was uncertain and dangerous. The passengers who sailed in sixteen twenty were fleeing the religious pressures of James I England, where dissenters faced imprisonment and persecution for refusing to conform to the Church of England In the last of four episodes leading up to the two hundred fiftieth anniversary of the American Independence, we trace the pilgrim's journey from Candestine congregations in England to uneasy exile in the Dutch city of Leidden, where poverty, political anxiety and fears of losing their English identity push them towards an even riskier venture across the Atlantic. The voyage itself was filled with conflict. invvestors rewrote contracts at the last minute, passengers quarrelled over authority, storms battered the ship, and the failure of the companion vessel's speedwell forced everyone aboard the overcrowded Mayflower When they finally reached New England in the winter of sixteen twenty, they entered a landscape devastated by epidemic disease, where survival depended on fragile alliances with native leaders We explore the creation of the Mayflower Compact, the harsh realities of Plymouth Colony, and the tensions between faith, commerce, survival and violence that shaped this extraordinary story I'm delighted to say that joining me today is Professor John G. Turner, Professor of Religious Studies and History at George Mason University in Fairfax, Virginia. And the author of They knew They were Pilgrims, Plymouth Colony and the Contest for American Liberty His work reveals the pilgrims not as flawless founders, but as complicated, divided and deeply human people I'm profess this is Anna Lipskom and this is not just the Tutors F from History Hit Professor Turner, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much. happy to be with you We're going to be talking about sixteen twenty, of course, but how far back Do we need to go to understand the origins of the pilgrims? Where do they come from? They really come from a variety of communities in England I think it's probably best to start the story back in the early fifteen eighties when you begin to have Radical Puritans is probably the best way to describe it who entirely give up on the Church of England as something that is impossible to reform And that the only thing that true Christians can do is to form their own through churches And Men and women who advocate for that position They're understood to be seditious by the crown and the church and episodically they're persecuted. And by the middle of the first decade of the sixteen hundreds, Those individuals begin to make their way to the Dutch Republic And eventually, at least some of them decide they don't want to stay there. They want a fresh start on the other side of the Atlantic So when we think about the relationship with the state and with the Church of England Would it be fair to say they're refusing to conform or that the king and the state is being intolerant towards them And for the most part, these were individuals who did a little bit more than quietly refuse to conform. I think for most people you could probably get away with absenting yourself from services or from the Eucharist you could quietly apologize if you were in a situation like that theseese individuals who were known at the time as brownests for Robert Brown, a separatist back in the fifteen eighties, They were more brazen in their opposition Some of them would publicly signal their rejection of the Church of England Others of them would do things like bury their loved ones on their own apart from the ceremonies of the church They would get married at times of the year when they weren't supposed to. all sorts of acts of non conformity Any single one of those people might have gotten away with, but you know, a string of such actions tended to attract attention and sometimes persecution if local offfficials or bishops were interested So you're sort of painting a picture of civil disobedience really in many ways Would it be fair to say that They're the extremists. Their problem is not that they're being persecuted by an extremist State but that they themselves do not think the state has gone far enough Well, I think that probably depends on one's perspective. So at the time, Suritans were in general, considered extremists by the state Everyone else hated separatists or brownists. because they were the most radical of radical Puritans. And so Other Puritans hated them because they gave Puritanism an even worse name It allowed opponents of the Puritans to say, Look, if we don't do something about these Puritans We're going to get to a point where men and women want to tear the whole church down and, you know, tear down the foundations of society On the one hand, these were individuals who You know, their ultimate aims were fairly modest. They wanted to form their own churches, elect their own officers. For them, that's what the liberty of a Christian entailed ability to have the liberty to D discipline your own membership, to choose your own leaders In theory, they could have done this with that really bothering body else But that was perceived as a radical challenge to the status quo And also an affront against the crown. It also denied as certain other S sureitens it as well. It's denied that a monarch could be the true head of a church So from their perspective, they're seeking a model of religious liberty. Absolutely. For them, that's what it meant to have the liberty of a Christian to form a true church whose members could choose their own leaders could choose a minister, could choose elders choose which members to admit. which members to discipline or expel They saw the Church of England like an unruly inn who let everybody within its walls They instead envisioned true churches that were like Walled gardens you know, little paradises that only allowed true Christians to walk among them So those who decided to leave England traveveled in large numbers to the Dutch city of Leyden, why was this such an attractive destination for them Well, A bunch of English Protestant dissidents made their way to the Dutch Republic Usually going first to Amsterdam in the late fifteen hundreds, early sixteen hundreds Not surprisingly, these were kind of a fractious group of people It's not as if they just formed one large group of separatists Separatists were really good at separating from each other And so When you had growing numbers of dissidents moving to the Dutch Republic, They couldn't all get along. and so they tended to break apart from each other And one group of separatist dissidents led by a minister named John Robinson went to Leiden. Leiden was an attractive destination for a couple of reasons. One, there were economic opportunities growrowing textile trades provided work for these men And Leiden, like most places in the Dutch Republic, extended a large measure of religious liberty to various sorts of movements. You know, there was an established Dutch reformed church, but only a minority of the population adhered to it And especially if religious minorities weren't brazen in any critique of the established church or the government They were more or less welcome to privately do their own thing, which is what John Robinson's church was able to do And so They establish themselves there. How did they manage to avoid assimilation. How did they maintain their unique religious identity core group of individuals who later decided to leave Leiden and became the famous Mayflower pilgrims They were inlighten for around ten years before they seriously contemplated leaving So that wasn't a large amount of time. There were, you could say just a number of expat English dissident communities in the Dutch Republic. that were able to maintain their identity. But one reason they decided to leave is they didn't want to assimilate. And You know, as the years passed, they grew worried about their children growing up and they understood to be a place that while it gave them liberty, It also gave everybody license to sort of, you know, more or less do their own thing and they didn't want their children to do their own thing. They wanted their children. and grandchildren to remain English They wanted them to adhere to their religious principles. So that was one motivating factor for leaving And whilst they were there, how did they deal with the Dutch authorities? So For the most part, they were content to leave each other alone. John Robinson and his flock, they didn't have a particularly large public profile. they did sometimes take an interest in internal Dutch Protestant arguments about religion. And you know, that was a potential flashpoint. The one thing that did make this relationship tricky is that the Dutch Republic had an uneasy alliance with the British crown And the crown would sometimes lean on Dutch authorities to crack down or help them extradite English, Protestant dissidents that were living in the low countries And the Dutch authorities were pretty good about minimally complying with such requests so as to protect the liberty of their guests. And so the separatists were mostly able to navigate that You know, there was concern about political stability of the Dutch Republic. as the sixteen teens drew to a close. It wasn't Guarantee that religious minorities would continue to enjoy the same liberties that they had been accustomed to Do you have a sense of how the pilgrim's time in Leiden shaped their identity and also their hopes of the newew world One thing that it gave them is it gave them a dose of economic hope you know, for the most part These were men and women from Not necessarily abject circumstances, but pretty humble circumstances. Grocers, printers, farmers These were individuals who were unlikely to achieve twelve Um prominence. Civic. privileges in England Some of them prospered while they were in Liden. William Bradford who was orphaned at a fairly young age and later became See governor of Plymouth Colony for most of its first four decades He prospered in Leiden. He was able to acquire a fairly stately house. He did well And The group of congregants He. decided to start colony across the Atlantic They hoped that they would continue to prosper economically and that that greater prosperity would make their religious principles a bit more attractive T. people who might be sympathetic to them back in England So as we come to the sixteen twenty voyage, we know it itself is fraught with tension and disagreement What were the biggest challenges before they even set sail They had all sorts of challenges. I mean, first of all, not everybody in the congregation thought this was a good idea. They weren't entirely naive. They knew that planting a colony was a pretty risky proposition. They knew about the travails of the Jamestown settlers. They knew about some other failed colonial ventures and shipwrecks So a lot of people in the congregation just wanted nothing to do with this, which is one reason why ultimately only about a third of the congregation crossing then the another enormous hurdle is money They don't have the resources to outfit themselves for an Atlantic crossing and the planting of a colony So they need investors. they need people to back them financially That's a fairly fraught endeavor because there isn't a group of wealthy separatists that they can turn to. so they have to turn to people T don't share their religious principles But h S some economic potential in their venture They also have to navigate a relationship with the crown as they prepare to do this At first, they're not sure. shouldould they try to do this under the Aegis of the Dutch Republic or should they seek pn't from the English crown, ultimately they choose the latter option And the response that they get is esssentially the crown won't object to their crossing It doesn't exactly give it blessing either. They're subsequently able to obtain patents But that's a complicated proposition as well So these are a group of not very well positioned individuals undertaking a very risky venture and with uncertain backing and finances And who else joins the pilgrims on their journey So when a portion of the congregation prepares for the voyage in London end up being joined by really a couple different groups of individuals. So the group of investors that backs them also invites other individuals to join the venture Some of those individuals might have been sympathetic to separatism, but many of them weren't. So in terms of religion, it was a bit of a mixed multitude And then there are servants who are also attached to the venture There's One story that I've often found quite interesting. There's a group of four orphan children who are attached to several separatist families at the last minute. So it's a bit of a rag tank from the outset And that's one of the things that causes some fault lines in the colony. as it gets underway in the years ahead So tell me about the journey, what was the voyage like So it's supposed to be a voyage on two ships, the Speedwell and the Mayflower And It should have taken place a couple of months before it did you know, an Atlantic crossing at the time. could take seven or eight weeks. And in an ideal world If you're beginning a colonial venture It'd be nice to arrive in what became known as New England. It'd be nice to arrive there Maybe in September You know, if listeners could imagine New England in September, you know, the leaves are just starting to turn color. It's still warm. You might be able to build some houses and get yourself situated before winter because of twists and turns in obtaining financing and provisions The venture doesn't get underway until early September And it doesn't get underway very well because one of the ships springs a leak turns out not to be repairable Some of the passengers later on accuse that captain of sort of chickening out. but let's just presume the ship wasn't seaworthy That means not everybody can cram into the Mayflower. So Some passengers disembark went The ip have to return and they have to abandon the speed well I think there are some passengers who count their lucky stars that they're back in England instead of crammed into the Mayflower So then the crossing really gets underway in September and they reach Thank Cod. on november ninth And Picularly in the early sixteen hundreds, it's basically early winter by early November in Cape Cod They also didn't really end up where they intended to go They intended to go somewhere sort of north of the Hudson River. So it would in theory have been around what's now Eastern Massachusetts around Cape Cod and along the coastline to the south And they do make an attempt to head that way after reaching land, but it proves too treacherous I'm just about to ask you a question about the sort of world the pilgrims encountered. when it dawned on me that at some point they started calling themselves pilgrims. When was that do we know? Is that a much later name or is it what they're calling themselves at the time? No that's a fantastic question and the name is a bit of an anachronism So they did not commonly become known as the pilgrims until the early eighteen hundreds So we could choose to call them something else. We could just call them the Mayflower passassengers or the Plymouth colonists We could call them the seeparatists if we wanted to, though they weren't all separatists. So we don't really want to do that sometometimes I think you know, questions of anachronism are tricky in history I think sometimes in the end, it's better to call people what they have become known as. even if it's slightly anachronistic William Bradford in his history of plantation He referred to a passage in the New Testament epistle to the Hebrews at a time when the passengers parted from their fellow congregants in the Dutch Republic. And when he looked back on this moment, everyone was crying, everyone was uncertain about the future. They were uncertain about whether They would see each other again. And then he writes, but they knew they were pilgrims. and essentially, fix their eyes not on their earthly travails, but on their heavenly destination So these individuals did think of themselves as pilgrims in a generically Christian sense. They just didn't think of themselves as the pilgrims the way Americans later began referring to them That's so interesting And there is something there about the way that they've become mythic with've being given that title with a definite article But anyway, let's go back to the narrative to the story when they arrived, whatever we're going to call them, what sort of world did they find in Cape Cod? First of all, the journey had gone rather well So despite the fact that they left late The fact that they encountered terrible storms All of the passengers made it One sailor perished And I think the colonists probably didn't think that was a great loss because these sailors were kind of crude profane individuals. So they encountered a world for which they were utterly unprepared And what they did was essentially start tromping around Cape Cod. and getting a sense of their environs and They found an unusual human landscape. So they saw abandoned settlements but recently used settlements They found freshly dug Graves someome of which they excavated and rooted around in They found caches of corn So they found a landscape that had all sorts of evidence of human activity, but at first they didn't see any other people And They were being watched and observed And after they continued to explore the Cape They had some sightings of Native people. And then there was an initial skirmish in which I don't think you could say that they were attacked. It's more that they were sort of probe. This wasn't a battle. It was sort of time at which a group of native people sort of made themselves known. and certainly made the Aventurers, we could now call them, sense that they might not be welcomeed This was all a lot for the Mayflower passengers to take in. I think they were filled with a lot of dread and uncertainty. They had a tremendous urgency to find a place for a settlement where they could begin constructing shelters from the elements And it took them about a month before they found that location It was a location that they already understood to be called Plymouth or New Plymouth from a name that John Smith of Virginia fame had given to a native settlement you know, on the other side of Cape Cod Bay So it took them a little while to find that place. and by the time they found that location, they were in bad shape There were I growing number of passengers who were sick and beginning to die mostly from scurvy and malnutrition. And so that very much added to that sense of urgency Podcast powers the world's best podcasts Here's a show that we recommend. Hello, hello. It's Brooke Deavvard from Naked Beauty. Join me each week for unfiltered discussion about beauty trends, self care journeys, wellness tips, and the products we absolutely love and cannot get enough of. If you are a skincare obsessive and you spend twenty plus minutes on your skincare routine, this podcast is for you. Or if you're a newbie at the beginning of your skincare journey, you'll love this podcast as well because we go so much deeper than beauty. I talk to incredible and inspiring people from across industries about their relationship with beauty. You'll also hear from skincare experts. We break down lots of myths in the beauty industry. If this sounds like your thing, search for Naked Beauty on your podcast app and listen along. I hope you'll join us If You want to get your backyard summer ready, but you don't want to break the bank? Wayfare gets it, planning on dining alfresco or relaxing poolside Wayfair has everything you need to prep your space. Shop now and save up to seventy percent off during Wayfare's Fourth of July clearance. sccore huge deals on outdoor furniture, area rugs, and more. We're talking thousands of products for every style and budget. Plus, surprise Flash deals July sixth. Don't wait. Shop Wayfare's Fourth of July clearance now through july sixth at wayfare dot com d Pay fair, every style, every home. H Ever wondered what it feels like to be a gladiator, facing a roaring crowd and potential death in the Colosiseum? Find out on the ancient podcast from History Hit. Twice a week, join me Tristan Hughes as I hear exciting new research about people living thousands of years ago, from the Babylonians to the Celts, to the Romans And visit the ancient sites which reveal who and just how amazing our distant ancestors were That's the ancients from History Hit Listen to this ACAast show, A free on Amazon Music with your Prime membership, or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts So their initial interactions with Native Americans were fraught But things change And they managed to reach an alliance. How does that happen? and what impact does that have So when they first come ashore in what they understand to be New Plymouth They were coming ashore at a place that to the natives of the region was known as Patuxet which was a formerly thriving community that had been decimated by an epidemic over the previous few years. Historians still are not quite sure of the exact pathogen that caused the epidemic. in portions of Southeastern New England in particular the mortality seems to have reached around ninety percent. So you had formerly thriving communities that were wiped out The native peoples of the region went by a variety of names They have subsequently become known generally as Wampanong. which is an umbrella term that's also a bit anachronistic The most powerful or influential community in the region was Pokonoca which was led by a Sachem whose name is most commonly known as Usa Miquin He and his people had been decimated by this epidemic They had powerful native enemies to the North and the West. that had been largely unscathed by the epidemic They understood the pilgrims as a fraught opportunity them to form an alliance with newcomers that might redress this power imbalance And so when the Mayflower passengers came ashore and began constructing fort and houses The Pkanos observed the situation for a couple of months and then decided to approach them and make overtures Both sides were very wary of each other. Even though they were interested in an alliance Pokonokits knew that Europeans had a reputation for showing up on the New England coast. and abducting natives and carrying them back to Europe. as either interpreters or to be sold as slaves. So they were definitely wary Eventually the two sides conclude what can best be understood as sort of a rudimentary mutual defense treaty that they're going to defend each other in the event of attack One of the things that happened over the course of that winter, brutal winter is that they're obviously facing lots of death and despair, but they also managed to forge a new political order. They're famous for their pioneeric governance in the form of the Mayfower Compact How radical was it really for its time So that's a great question. The Mayflower compact, it used to be a cornerstone of American civics. You know, school children would be taught that this is part of the foundation of the American Republic. So it used to get all sorts of weight it probably didn't deserve But I think it's nevertheless, it is quite remarkable. So This came about in a rather slapdash way after the Mayflower reaches Cape Cod because This was a bit of a mixed multitude. And the various groups of passengers, they weren't really certain they wanted to work together and form a common settlement. And so they hash out this packs after reaching the cape. This is not something that's designed back in England. And it's a pretty simple agreement I think the most significant part of it is the decision to form a body politic ad includes prettyretty much every adult male passenger among the colonists includes servants. It includes able of various religious principles And It states that, you know, they're going to commonly select officers and form laws. right after the passengers subscribe to it They elect Carver as their governor for the next year And this sets a precedent of holding annual elections that stands for the next seventy years of Plymouth colonies. self governing existence The later generations in the colony understood this as significant. When they would meet to revise their laws, they would read the compact aloud They saw it as setting the foundation for government. Now one of the challenges of the government of the colony and the leadership was the constant relations with Native peoples. And a turning point seems to be the massacre led by Mar Standish. What does that reveal about the settlers Mindset and fears The pilgrims are pretty fearful and uncertain about the world that lives beyond their fort. It's a world they don't understand very well And they don't really know who to trust You know, they have native allies There's a few individuals who can speak English actually because of episodes of ion. And forced labor for past English ship captains They're in a confusing situation. and different native allies often tell them different things about potential So they're often not quite sure what to do And a few years after the establishment of the colony, there's another group of Englishmen who are to the north on the rim of Massachusetts Bay interacting with a different group of native peoples that at the time are known as the Massachusetts And the Plymouth Pilgrims don't much like the existence of this other English outpost. I think they see it as a threat to their trade They're also being told by Usimiquin. that the Massachusetts are planning to attack may or may not have been true. And the pilgrim's military captain, Miles Standish, who is very diminutive. Another English writer later dubbed him Captain Shrimp He led a military expedition to the north And The pilgrims took the offensive. They decoyed some native leaders into and enclosed space and murdered them and then killed several other natives in that operation It did for them have two practical benefits. gave some evidence of their military prowess in the region. It also eliminated a competing English outpost in terms of the fur trade alsoso very much dismayed their minister, John Robinson, who is still enlightened. He never made the crossing. you know, he wrote a letter to them. teach them And said, you know, it really would have been preferable if you had at least converted a few of them before you'd started killing them rather poignant I think. It's actually to the credit of the pilgrims that they included that letter in some of their own histories of their colony And actually that leads me to another question, which is how did they balance the religious ideals that many of them had brought had motivated this journey with these practical demands of survival and politics So Mayflower passassenger Edward Winslow who was one of the more prosperous and cosmopolitan among the sepeparatist pilgrims He had a line in one of his Tracts. about the colony in which he said that they could make religion and profit jump together He was very forthright about the fact that we could do both of these things at the same time I don't know that that particularly was a tension in the colony. I think everyone wanted to prosper economically and they didn't see that as conflicting with their religious principles. It did lead them into conflict with other Europeans in the region because from a retty early point say by the mid sixteen twenties and even in a more pronounced way, by the sixteen thirties Plymouth is in competition with Dutch settlers to the West And the Massachusetts Bay colony to the north get the best access points for the fur trade For a time, they're actually pretty successful in establishing economic preeminence in this respect Also, all of these various groups accuse each other of terribly unchristian behavior as they pursue wealth I think within the colony You know, there's the desire for the venture to prosper I think the real fault lines came about because not everyone who came to Plymouth shared the same separatist principles. Yes, and I suppose we need to remember that the colony is never isolated from events in England where we've got the rise of Archbishop William Lorde, and he looms large in the story What impact did his policies have on the colony on the other side of the Atlantic I mean, things are already underway to the north of Plymouth around Massachusetts Bay before Laude's campaign of persecution against the Puritans really reaches its peak B The primary effect is that you have what becomes known as a great migration of Puritans to Massachusetts Bay I think for the Plymouth colonists. After a couple of years, they sail to the north and they see Massachusetts Bay and the Charles River And I think a lot of them think, oh Maybe we should have settled here instead Maybe this is a better place for colony Plymouth in certain respects becomes a bit of an economic backbater as the bay colony to its north grows in terms of population military cld and economic developments. So a main effect for Plymouth is kind of becoming eclipsed by its larger colonial neighbor to the north You want to get your backyard summer ready, but you don't want to break the bank? Wayfair gets it, planning on dining alfresco or relaxing poolside Wayfare has everything you need to prep your space. Shop now and save up to seventy percent off during Wayfare's Fth of July clearance. sccore huge deals on outdoor furniture, area rugs, and more. We're talking thousands of products for every style and budget. Plus, sururprise Flash Deals July sixth. Don't wait. Shop Wayfare's Fth of July clearance now through july sixth at wayfare dot com d ay fair every style, every home. At my bank, I was literally getting pennies using Wealthfront. Ching There's this much that I'm getting in interest and I didn't have to do anything. Clients like Angela earn up to four point two percent API on their cash with the Wealthfront cash account. Get started at wealthfront dot com C cllients paid one thousand dollars for their testimonial creating conflict of interest outcesary. three point three percent, API as of january thirtieth twenty six is representative viable and earned on fund swept to program bank. point five percent new clients whos for threeths up to one hundred fifty thousand dollars. Direct deosit one thousand dollars ath fund invest account for a point five percent increase cash account offered by Wealthront broerage LLC mem Fin S ICn a I suppose is also broader Atlantic context here to think about threats from the Dutch and the French. How can understanding that change our perception of this story? I think the main way it can change our perception of the story is by understanding the economic rivalry that Plymouth found itself in There are some fierce conflicts with the Dutch in the sixteen thirties It's not only a question of rivalry. There are some ongoing commercial and religious connections between the Dutch colony of New Netherland and Plymouth. There's some individuals who go back and forth between the two colonies In later decades, New Netherland is also a source from which African slaves are brought to the English colonies in New England. So there's a lot of complicated interactions which I think us examine elements of these colonies that are sometimes forgotten. And if we fast forward a little up to the fifteen and seventies to a devastating conflict, King Philip's war that really tests Plymouth colonies resilience. How do you think that reshapes the colony and its future So typically Plymouth cololony in most accounts of American history It's largely forgotten after the mythical first Thanksgiving and especially once the Bay colony gets underway Plymouth becomes the epicenter. Lve devastating regional war in the mid sixteen seventies catalyst for this is that the Plymouth colonies are expanding to the west Back in the sixteen twenties, the alliance between Busimiquin and the Pokanoks and other Wampanog communities And the colonists, it's mutually beneficial at first It strengthens the position of Usumikquin visais other native communities and bolsters him militarily in the wake of the epidemic. But things are totally different a half century later Native communities have been further weakened by subsequent epidemics and English settlements grow in a way Lusamquin and other natives in sixteen twenty could not have predicted and English settlements push native peoples off of their land There are a lot of land transactions s I think are a bit dubious. There's various ways that English settlers acquire land that are not through conquest but are not without a lot of coercion. and eventually Uusamiquin's descendants, namely metetacet who becomes known by his English name of Philip