Playing Nice Guys Versus Villains

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There's a scene with Lena newly dating and she takes me to an art show to sort of make Adam jealous or at least to see what happens when she shows up with another guy and we shot that scene. I think maybe we blocked it but not really rehearsed it fully and was just standing next to Ad am and was like, oh, this guy hit me in this scene. Like I don't really know what's going to happen right now and that was so exhilarating . Hello and welcome to another episode of Obsess the Podcast. I'm Kevin Fallon here to guide you through all the TV shows, movies, and pop culture nonsense that we think is unmissable. Today's guest is the actor Jake Lacey, or as I like to think of him, the actor who's in all of your favorite things . You will have seen him in The Office , in Girls, in The White Lotus, in the movies Obvious Child , How to Be Single, Being The Ricardos, the list goes on and on and now he's in a great movie called Mosquito in the Year, where he gives another truly, truly great performance. We talk about that, we talk about all those roles, especially the white lotus, and we talk about the thing that every one seems to be obsessed with him, playing either the nicest boyfriend ever or just complete and total dick. He has lots of thoughts on that. So here it is my interview with Jake Lucy. Hi Jake. How are you? I'm great. Thank you. How are you? I'm doing great . I love chatting with you. We chatted a few times before , but I'm excited now because I feel like you've reached one of my favorite statuses in an actor's career where you're sort of now one of those people who is the guy who seems like he's in everything . Oh, that's great. I'll take it. I mean, are you feeling booked and busy? Do you feel like you've reached a certain point in your career now where it is sort of like that ? internal experience is always one of like hunger and desperation. I'm always like as one job closes out , I'm like, We better get something else. I might never work again. You know, like that's just my always my mindset. But when I then I step back , you know, and I go , oh, I've been really fortunate. I've gotten to work on a lot of things with a lot of people that I admire and often admire before we work together and admire more so after. And oh, that's always good. Yeah, more so versus less so. Man, that a nut bening. This must be like Bachelor. That was a nightmare . Nicole Kidman, man . Oh , she's incredible. Honestly, I didn't know , you know, I knew Nicole Kidman like movie star. I knew from sitting on my couch watching her wonderful work for twenty five, thirty years . And then to be on set with her like it's one thing to admire someone's work, which I do in regard to her, but also then you get to see how people like conduct themselves, you know? And I'm always, always taken where people are like composed and prepared and their leaders on set and they know everyone's name and they're you know it's just all that little stuff that you don't see within a film necessarily or within a TV show , but the actual process of making it you need those people and when you see someone like kind of organically step into those roles or that they've learned to do that or something is so impactful to me to go like they're wildly talented and also like that's who you want at four AM on a night shoot in the trenches, you know ? That's maybe equally as important. Yeah, I've talked with other film journalists and TV journalists about this where everyone constantly wants to know gossip and dirt about celebrities, but I actually really appreciate more hearing that the people that I've always been a fan of are actually kind of great. Yeah , it's someone not in the business in this business is like are they nice? And I'm like, Who do you care? That's the first question I ask, you know what I mean? It's like a friend of mine works with so and so I on',m like, how are they? And they're like, they're great. Oh, that's so cool. I'm gonna root for that. Like I was doing a thing with Anna Pakwin and Colin Hanks and asked them separately like who if you could work with anyone again , who would it be? You know, instead of like, what's the worst thing you've ever experienced? And they both separately were like Bradley Whitford. Oh, wow. Bradley like hands down Bradley Whitford. I was like, Awesome, like, what is it? You know, and they're like, That's the guy you want when it's rainy and it's cold and you're tired and like, you know, whatever. You've been waiting six hours in the trailer like that's the guy you want. He's the best. Notable that Colin didn't choose his father, Tom I should have been like, Dude for real. Seriously. Shots fired on Tom H anks right across the bow. Seriously . But you're in a new film that's currently out in Los Angeles and coming to New York this weekend called Mosquito in the Year . And I feel like between this movie and all her fault, which was a huge hit this year, it's right now in the middle of the Emmys awards race. I feel like between these two projects , you're really in an era of dads going through it . Yeah , yeah, you kind of age into that unwittingly . You know, there's like, I'm forty and I'm still sure that I'm like twenty seven or twenty eight . So I see people, you know, get cast in something, I'm like, why didn't I even get a shot at that? You're forty, like they're playing college students . Exactly. Yeah, he's a senior in college. Like, you're maybe the professor . Yeah, I hadn't thought of it in that way. That is probably the only overlap that those two characters share is dad's going through it and raising a child that's not biologically theirs, you know, like those are the two it is it's fun to well to have the opportunity to work, you know, to not have like I was never a teen heart throb, you know, so I didn't have to then fight to be taken seriously in my thirties or you know, whatever that journey is for other people that get kind of slated into something or are on a path that feels successful, but you can't quite get off that track and you don't know when it ends . And so yeah, getting to play fathers or professionals or I heard Mark Strong in an interview say he was like going bald and turning thirty five was one of the best things that happened to me because you get you're part of the institution now. He's like you get to play priests and cops and detectives and doctors and you know, you sort of are put into this other realm . So it is fun to , you know , to be a man, but getting to age in this business into these other roles. So next time I see you, you're going to be bald. So yes, yeah. The wig's coming off and I'm gonna live my truth and be the bald man that I have. So there's a really fun moment in this film where you find out what the title Mosquito in the air means . And it's sort of also reveals what this plot is. So I was wondering if you could, you know, tell people who are listening about the title and how it correlates to what your character is going through in this movie. Yeah, sure . So Nazbuniandi and I play parents who are going to India to finalize the adoption of their daughter . And it's been a years long process and they're going to meet her for the first time. They've essentially seen a picture and that's it . And the story is us arriving there and meeting her and being struck with the reality that the life she has there is really fulfilling for her. She's cared for , she has parental figures in these nuns where she's being raised and has food and access to education and friends and the life and interests and at an hour rem oving her from that, we're giving her this opportunity for later years in her life, but in this moment are going to cause like real duress for her . And the title, Mosquito in the ear is something that she says to one of the sisters . And we're unsure of what it is. And she says, she's describing the sound of you speaking as a mosquito in the ear , this like annoyance that you kind of want to swat away and isn't terribly pleasant to be around . And so that dynamic of of like, when do you become a family? You know, like that's the question of the film is like, when do you become a parent in this circumstance? And when do you become a family? Because it isn't this white savior story of people from the U. S. flying to India , you know , scooping a girl out of poverty. It's like she fully has a life. And do you become parents when you land there? Do you become a family when you meet ? Do you become a family when you've signed up on the dotted line and ultimately I think the answer is for all parties involved one, they kind of overcome their shortcomings in service of one another and witness that selflessness, that giving that generosity Is the first time that the door cracks open a little bit to the potential them being a family unit ? That's a lot of words. That's a lot of me attempting to describe a sort of simple thing but hopefully with some nuance. But it's a profound thing. Yeah, it's it's really I mean there's moments where as a couple we think like maybe we shouldn't do this like maybe we're causing more pain for our potential daughter than any kind of opportunity or solo us or something, you know? And and then the kind of fraying of that relationship between myself and my wife in which she's like, you're you're quitting like you're just trying to walk away. Like it's getting difficult and you don't want to do it anymore. But you can't do that. Like you can't just leave because it got a little tough . Yeah, it's a wonderful, it's a wonderful movie. It was like all on the page when we first read it. I was, you know this very young director, Niko direct ed it and he and his producing partner and wife Emily wrote it 's remarkable. Like it's all it was already there and I was thrilled to come on board . Good sleep is everything . That's why Ollie's science back support is made with a blend of melatonin and LTN for both kiddos and grown ups. So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help. Your racing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Ollie Sleep Solutions for the whole family at Ollie. com That's OL ing . Come together on a Windows eleven PC. And for a limited time, college students get of both worlds . Get the unreal college deal, everything you need to study and play with select Windows eleven PCs. Eligible students get a year of micro soft three hundred and sixty five premium and a year of Xbox GamePass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at Windows dot com slash student offer. Law supplies last ends june thirtieth terms at Akka dot m coll sleashge pc. So I think one of the also really beautiful things about this movie is that it's a very intimate story between these three characters with the help of also obviously the nun getting to know each other and trying to form this family . But it also and it's I think really integral to the film that there's a huge sense of place there. You know , from the minute the movie starts, we see you arrive in India and it's the classic white man just culturally blown away and you know, out of this element and everything's overwhelming and the chaos of everything is there. But what's it did you shoot in India because you really do get a sense of that just absolute energetic cultural chaos that is happening when the second you arrive. Yeah, we shot and go , which you know, there's a sort of like big like dance rave scene that happens there in the cool er months, and then when it gets hot, those people decamp and go somewhere else and that's when we arrived and so we shot in India. I'd never been . And it was , you know, my experience and Andrew the character's experience were pretty parallel. I was both enthralled so excited to I don't know, absorb everything I could there and also was really overwhelmed a lot of the time. You know, like completely different sounds and smells and tastes and the light is different and the speed at which things move. And I don't, you know, I didn't understand the context of so many cultural things. You know, just trying to learn and absorb something in just a month or so that we were there was daunting . And so it was fun to infuse that into the movie and also to be like , you know, when we first arrived we're in this van that's picked us up and it's cramped and it's hot and there's no AC and Andrew's filming throughout, which is true to the film is based off the real life experience of this Italian couple and Andre , who Andrew is based off of filmed the entire time that they were there in order to have these memories , but to infuse it also with like the enthusiasm that comes with wanting to explore and to be a traveler and somewhere and not just having it be a Western white guy who's overwhelmed in this kind of like this is too much for me vibe , but but truly to be like, I want to take all this in and I might not be able to, but I want to I'm invested on the experience, you know, in being in being a student here and not just like this isn't what I'm used to . I was I laughed really hard at the scene where they're being encouraged to wear Saris and traditional Indian garb to meet the daughter for the first time I had an experience similar to Andrew where I went to an Indian wedding. It was in America, but the groom had provided all of us with traditional garb to wear and they included, I guess what was, supposed to be a scarf that goes, you know, around your neck. And my vent boyfriend and I didn't know that it was a scarf and we tied it around her waist sort of like to cinch her waist like a robe. It was going free for them. Yeah, like we just shred intoded the wedding thinking that we look great and just everyone started laughing at us . So I was like, I really understand this woman 's uncomfortable. Also that there's, you know, the lead of a bad scene is that my wife has wear this traditional garb and all these things and I'm like, you look great. It's really good. And then of course he leaves, fully worried being like, Oh, I'm also doing this. Oh , that's not quite as funny . Yeah, it was I don't know it felt like I don't know in my job like I get to travel a lot and I it just is being like thrust into a thing and then ripped right back out. And so while you're there, it's this strange bubble of like really giving over to something and both as me as a person traveling, but also you know an actor with this job . And then I have to go back through like my photos sometimes on my phone to be like, oh yeah, oh we did do that. Yeah, because it just feels so whirlwind and big and you're just kind of in the moment there for a long time and then get spit back out the other side and think like I, have a good time there. That was interesting. What if they remember ? What did I take from that, you know? That's a story about a lack of stories, I feel like this movie is also a showcase for something that you do, I think, better than a lot of actors or at least one of my favorite things that you do, which is the exasperated expression of disbelief at people's behavior just to like I watch you do it in girls with when you were a friend with Lena Dunam as Hannah. I watch you do it how to be single in that scene where Leslie find out Leslie Man is pregnant and she's trying to defend it. You're just like , and you do it a lot in this movie. And I'm curious if you've known that about yourself that you're good at doing that. No , that's a guy who just can't. Yes. Oh, that's really funny . Yeah each of those things is so fun because it's it's fun to it's fun to find the ways that these characters have like fair and unfair expectations and being exasperated by something that really is ridiculous and then also being exasperated by something that is entirely their own fault. You know, like that they have no right to be that put out by this thing and to equally be like, this I can't live like this. This is crazy. This is just too much to take . Is really fun to sort out. In this in Mosquito in the Ear Nico and I talked about Andrew leading from behind that he is like I'm here. I'm ready to do what needs to be done and show up and be emotionally available for people and be mature and step into my own and all these things. And also is like, so just tell me where to go and how to do it and when to do it and I'm there . And you know, it creates this like hopefully this tension within Andrew , within his marriage , where he both is showing up, but is also kind of riding shotgun. You know, like doesn't seem to take a lot of initiative when, things get tricky, he's like, well, I did my best. You know, I really tried and I guess that's as far as it's going to go instead of like , see it through. Like dig deep and figure out how to get this done, man. I do like exasperation. It is so fun . It's funny to see people in real life who are like so put out . You know, like the those videos of people that are like filming someone in their side view mirror . There's one where there's like they're in a side view mirror. It's a woman behind just losing her mind at the steering wheel. And then he flits the camera and they're waiting for school kids to like cross at a crosswalk. Oh, it's like there's not anything , it's totally legitimate. There's children in the road and this lady's like you know is just losing her mind. Yeah . This episode is brought to you by Prime. What if you had one more chance with the one that got away? Sam, you came home. Based on the best selling novel from Carly Fortune, every year after follows childhood friends, Sam and Percy, as they reunite in the dreaming, nostalgic lakeside town of Ferry's Bay . Love can be hard to find, so if you're lucky enough to find that person, never let go. A second chance at first luck every year after, now streaming only on Prime . I feel like people and I guess by people I mean the most important people in the world, people who work for entertainment media very obsessed with or obsessed with obsessing over your nice guy versus sort of douchebag villain eras. I feel like it's often a topic of conversation when people talk to you. Like you had early in your career, you played a lot of very nice, suitable boyfriends, and then you sort of switched to the white lotus and a friend in the family, and you were suddenly playing fillings and you were very good at playing the douchebag . How do you feel about the fact that people seem to be so preoccupied first of all with those being two things that you're like sort of jumping in between, but also that you can do both things? I got what I asked for is really what I should say. I spent a long time , like you said, like playing sweet guys and nice guys and good boyfriends and, you know , people that you'd probably be okay like bringing home to your parents and things like that . And then you know, after of that, I was like, I really want to I could do more than this. You know, like we keep going down this road, but I think there's more, you know, more there. I just haven't I'd gotten the opportunity to do that, but nobody saw those projects. You know what I mean? Like I was getting those different roles , but those projects for whatever reason just didn't hit in a way that anyone was like, oh, he also does this. Yeah. So the White Lotus of us have been like a huge turning point . Yes, that was definitely the one the one and and I loved it. Like I it's so I just always, you know, like Matt Damon and talented Mr. Ripley that, kind of thing where presents as one thing, but clearly there's another going on. And I just always wanted the opportunity to do that and have gotten that and now I'm trying to like find my way out of being , you know, just an awful like very, you know, shades of awfulness in terms of I don't know how selfish these different characters are. I'm always curious when someone is good at playing a character like that, like, I mean, you got it Emmy nomination for the Way Lotus. Do you ever think of, do you ever have to soul search like, wow, what is it about me that I am excellent at playing a jerk Some of that's in the writing . Well, I'd say it, you know , first , for the white lotus , like it's not a coincidence that so many people in my opinion are doing some of the best work that they've ever done on that show because Mike White is incredible . Like as a writer, as a director, as a collaborator, as an editor , you know , so he is kind of the I feel like everybody you speak to about White Lotus does and should be like deferring a lot of these compliments to him . And you know, for that show, like the writing was enough that Shane was clearly an asshole, like just the words alone . And when I spoke with Mike , ahead of time, you know, when we were in Hawaii, we hadn't started shooting, he was like , I think this guy, he's a good guy . And he's just trying to have a nice vacation and everyone is ruining it for him. I would be pissed about the pineapple room too . Right. So if you if you that then creates this tension of like a guy who really does think he's a nice guy , but the things he says and does are awful and selfish and beed and entitled. And those things together create this fun swirl . And so that's to me is the challenge and also the joy of like , unless you're a sociopath , you know, people who are like problematic are doing that to solve something in themselves . A need a need to be seen, a need to be loved, a need to be heard, a fear that they won't get what they need, a fear that they won't get what they want. And the way they're going about it is really unpalatable to the rest of us . But that need is still the same human need that we all have. And so can you take someone that seems unlikeable on the page and infuse them with a thing that even if it's not in the dialogue that you find ways in to create more layers and you know, even White Low is like even shane at this scene where maybe Alexander's gonna go home. It's going to like leave me and end this marriage and he's genuinely like scared and furious hurt and embarrassed and he's also like a baby. You know what I mean? Is just this kind of like male Karen , but those feelings are very real in him , you know And that's , you know , this is I did high fidelity with Zoe and that character was originally written as like a nice guy and it's sort of like, I can't believe she went home with this guy. I can't believe she actually maybe is interested in him. He's so milk toast . And they and the writers and producers and Zoe were very generous when I was like , hey, can we make it that like he's trying to be a good guy? That he's made questionable choices in the past and is doing his best to not make those choices again. And so then this tension within him about , I don't know if I should be with this person really makes more sense that he's going like , you're cool and unbelievably beautiful and clearly there's a vibe here and also you might be the least healthy person for me to be with. Like that is more human than just the story of him being like, I can't. You're like, why ? Who are you to say? What are you doing? You say no to like come on . So finding these ways either with collaborators or just on my own to try to find those more grounded things foundationally, and then the scene can still be as written , but with like a little something in it. Your call has been forwarded to voicemail Hi, this is Zoe Deutsche and Nick Robinson. Our brand new movie Voicemails for Isabelle is all about those little moments that feel like the universe is looking out. Feeling homesick , then your sister calls. Hearing that perfect song exactly when you need it . Sometimes life rigs things in a favor, like learning about your new favorite ROM comm oicemails for Isabel. Now playing only on Netflix . It's so interesting that you said that it's not a surprise to you that so many people do their best work working with Mike White because I wonder for you and for anyone who's worked with him when the White Lotus like I imagine that when you're on set with anybody now, there's got to people be like, Hey, so can you can you give me with Mike's number? Can you give me an in for the way ? Like do you experience any of that ? I'm very I've gotten better at like making friends in this business for a long time . You know, on a set, people would be like, Oh, you live in Brooklyn, you know, like me too, like, what's hanging after? And I was like , that's very generous of you to perform friendship for me, but like , we're not gonna be friends. Like, you've got a whole big life. You don't need me. And but with Mike, I'm like I leave him alone and then like every six months he'll like text me something funny and I'm like Mike texted. Oh he's just sending a nice thing. You know what I mean? To a friend and I'm like, oh my God, like I'm sort of creatively starstruck by Mike . So I guess it's so much I don't know. The what's weird to me is not weird, it's just it's like it's taking on its own now . Like when people get cast on the show , there's like a it's like you won the lottery. Do you know what I mean? Like nothing's been made yet, nothing's been shot, nothing, you know, you haven't worked together , you know? And there's like an enthusiasm that kind of rolls over into like, oh my God, I can't believe I got this thing because of how great it is and how fun it is to work on and but also I don't know anything else like that other than maybe if you got a Marvel movie like ten years ago , the form of being like , oh , I just leveled up in a huge way. You know, like the White Lotus is a new marvelous amazing White Lotus you, just like, let's build it out . Let's dilute that product . I wanna ask you one last thing before I go because I'm a huge Lina Dunem fan, a huge girls fan. I poured over FameSick as if it was the Bible and I'm suddenly religious . So having been on girls, I'm just curious when someone mentions Lena Don McCU or girls, is there something that first comes to your mind ? Well, it's a mix of things. I mean, that's a huge . My experience on girls is something that, you know, just strikes me is I've gotten some dream jobs, you know, like that I thought were going to be dream jobs and they turned out to be or ones that I didn't know what they would be and then were just incredible. And that's one of them. Like I such regard for the cast that was already there and the writing and really didn't know what to expect. I didn't know any of those people beforehand or have any insight into it . And but man I could ride my bike to work and show up and then have like some of the funniest, dryest writing and again like, a really cool, fun, collaborative thing where you just felt like I don't remember ever feeling like anyone there was dictatorial. You know, from a writing standpoint, producing standpoint. And when I think of Lena, I just realize like how unknowable maybe we all are . Even if even to ourselves or even after reading a memoir or something , there's revel ations in there that I'm like, I had no idea . And also I don't know, it's still inherently anything that's like public is public. You know, like they're like it's not very clear, but is it possible to write a memoir that isn't performance ? And but is that baked in like she's so incredibly smart that I think she's aware of that, that like this is a memoir is also like a creation of art at the same time . And so it's different than Joan Diddian writing in which it really feels like you're reading her innermost thoughts, which is different than a sort of public reckoning of a private experience in a way. Right. But man, I loved being on that show . It's also the only time maybe I've said this before, but I've been on set a couple times where the other person it was not the social contract of acting in which you're like I'll agree to do this and then you'll agree to do that. Like there's really a thing happening happening and the first time. I don't remember what worker was, but there's a scene Lina , we're newly dating and she takes me to an art show to sort of make Adam jealous or at least to see what happens when she shows up with another guy and he's dating her friend and we shot that scene. I think maybe we blocked it, but not really rehearsed it fully and was just standing next to Adam and was like , oh, this guy hit me in this scene. Like I think this man might really know what's gonna happen right now . And that was so exhilarating to really be doing a thing with a person, to not be like , I'll pretend to be nervous and you'll pretend to be jealous and whatever that is , but to like to undeniably be there with a person was so cool. Yeah . Chasing that for ten years . Well, I hope you find it again. And I want to thank you for chatting with me . Big fan of yours. You're part of the two scenes in TV of TV that I watch rewatch most often for very different reasons. One is Fran chasing Hannah through the restaurant bathroom. I find it so funny you could watch that over and over again. We shot that for like five hours. That was like five hours like they had all these alts. That's one of my favorite memories off that show is like they just had alts alts of me like behind a tree just screaming out of all the things I was gonna do. The exasperated disbelief face right, that's the original . And then another instance of that, which I re watch often, but for no a different reason as a gay man is Shane walking in and Murray Bartley needing Lucas' gauge ass and the white lotus , yeah, that was a wild the physical negotiation on their end of how are we going to do this and how what are we going to do and how is this going to work? And eventually being like this is what we're going to do and this is how it's going to go. And just being like, here we go. And the number of like , you know, that a credit to Mike White is like the building of the attention of that narratively. And then also there's like probably fifteen reactions to me opening that door and being like and him being like, this time just open it and just like stare . You know, and like his understanding of editing an actor's performance in real time to go like less, less, less, less. We already know what you're seeing . Just let us see you see it. Like that's all we need here. That kind of he just understands when to like dial things up and dial them down . Yeah. So you will live with me in my heart forever . As it should . Well, congrats on another great performance of Mosco in the year, and again, thanks for chatting with me. Really appreciate it. Thank you so much Thanks, Drake. It's always so much fun chatting with you. I just giggled so much, so I really appreciate that . And as always, we want to hear from you , what's your favorite Jake Lacey performance? And why is it the white lotus? Please let me know. As always, please follow us on YouTube at the South Channel, follow us wherever you get your podcast, and if you like me , subscribe to me at obsessed substack dot com As always, thank you to our producer Rachel Passer, and we'll see you next time.