Meeting Heroes and Future Goals

Your summer weekends fill up fast, but Crocs has your back. Road trips, beach days, last minute getaways, whatever's on the agenda, swing by your local store and find your new goat too Try it, style it, make it yours. becausecause the right pair doesn't just show up It shows off Wock out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest crox store today This summer, serve the cookout cllassics, craft Mayo and dressing. Toss green salads with delicious ranch dressing, or zesty Italian. Serve smooth, craably creamy potato salads with mayo. We all know it's not a cookout without craft. This episode is brought to you by Street Easy. Here's the thing, Wna be the grandparents who bolted to the Burbs or the cool relatives still living in NYC? The city that people come to to be at the center of everything. With twenty years at NYC know how, Street Easy has the tools, agents, and guidance to make you a forever New Yorker too Visit streeteasy. com to buy a rent in NYC. StreetEasy is an assumed name of Zillow Inc, which has licenses in all fifty states As a comedian, you know, I've certainly done hell gigs and seeing all the footage from that two hundred fiftieth celebrations, That's a hell gig because the hell gig is defined by bad crowd or no crowd, less than optimal circumstances. so performing in the middle of the day outside is not good and then not getting paid. I'm sure none of those people are getting paid. and if they are, they're not getting paid to the level of the hellness of the gig I used to be a huge UFC fan. The thing I don't get is not recognizing that the UFC today is not the thing the UFC was even ten years ago. And that going to a UFC match is not the same as going to Donald Trump's birthday party UFC match. I wouldn't go to UFC event in Vegas at the UFC places where they do UFC events. But then when you put it at the White House at Donald Trump's house, there is no way I'm going Hello and welcome to Obsessed the podcast. I'm Matt Wilsting from The Daily Beast and today on the show, we have a comedian, writer, director, author and activist who also happens to be my East Bay neighbor. He spent seven seasons as the host of CNN's United Shades of America, and his new podcast and Substack are both called Who's with Me W C out Bell, welcome to Obsess the podcast. I'm so excited to have you here especially because this is shaping up to be our big july fourth episode. All right. feel like you're you're our perfect guest for that. Let's go America The last time we talked I was looking back. it was just over two years ago. so it was like spring. twenty twenty four Biden and Trump were still the candidates in the race and you your take was that America might be fucked either way. So I wanted to check in with you on that. S how are you feeling about our prospects now that America is two hundred and fifty years old and here we are And It's funny when I think about that podcast, I remember the moment where you're like Would you go on Joe Rogan? And I was like, no, you're like, really? I don't know if that's exactly what played out but you sort of were like you wouldn't go it and I feel like, so I remember I stand by that decision I made that That has panned out. I'm less surprised now by that answer Yeah. so I mean I mean, I think I always knew that America would be more fucked under Trump Like I think I was always clear about that that America's, you know, two hundred and fifty is it's young in a country, but it's old in a democracy, I guess. I don't know that's not a democacy that'saimed to be deocracy. You know, it's very clear that Whatever America is in ten years going to look dramatically different one way or the other And we're at the point where we all get to decide which side of that we want to be on. And I don't think it's I don't think If we decide that like if we think it's still a pendulum that swings back and forth, then it's going to be way worse than ten years. But if we understand that like We're being challenged by history, then we have to then it then it could be better. Yeah. you got to prevent that swingb back. Yeah there's no more like, well, every now and we have a Republican and a Democrat. just It's like that's' not, we're not there anymore because you don't tend to swing back from authoritarianism. as easily as you as easily as you swing back from Republicans and Democrats Have you been impressed so far by the way that Trump has brought the country together for the two hundred fiftieth birthday of the country It's funny. as a comedian, you know, I've certainly done hell gigs and seeing all the footage from that two hundred fiftieth celebration. That's a hell gig because a hell gig is defined by Bad bad crowd or no crowd U less than optimal circumstances. so performing in the middle of the day outside is not good And then not getting paid. I'm sure none of those people are getting paid. and if they are, they're not getting paid to the to the level of the of the helllness of the gig Yeah, I think they were left with only vanilla ice and then vanilla ice got rained out. So they said it he got rained out but apparently people were like, there's no rain though Yeah Maybe he got rained out in the sense that there wasn't enough crowd for him to perform Yeah Yeah, that's tough. That is tough U Well, I have been really loving your new podcast and your substack. As I said, they're both called Who's With Me And I think you've managed to get some attention on it already in a couple of different ways. So I wanted to kind of talk about some of those U you know, including from the Daily Beast, as you know, for your Nate Bargazzi take U you know, you're talking about having to pick a side in this moment He seemed to pick a side when he went to the UFC fight on the White House lawn But you were one of the very few comedians to really call it out in any kind of major way So I'm curious about just why did you want to write that? You wrote a substag about it and You know, what's through your head when you saw that going down. It's funny. I didn't at the time, I didn't see myself as doing some sort of like act of comedic bravery or some sort of like, I'm going we need a comedian because I was seeing comedians I knew on threads talk about it. Yeah. It's been huge on threads. And I was seeing a lot of comedians say, oh, we always knew Nate was Maga. And I don't I can't say that. I would not I've met Nate years ago, not not many years Um, Certainly and it'll be clear, fan of his work. Wh like. I mean, so am I Yeah, his George Washington SNL sketch is one of the goes in the canon of great SNL sketches Um So this is not about him as the work and When I wrote it, it's funny. sometimes things stay in the substack containment. and so I don't ever think about is this going to break containment? but this one clearly broke containment And I really was like It just so happened. I was because in the thing I wrote I actually mentioned Joseph Gordon Levitt Uh, I mentioned, um Nate and there was somebody else I mentioned in that. Yeah, Serena Williams husband, right? Yeah, Alex Oahaney. Yeah. I was really just like, Hey guys, you can't do this. Just turns out Nate had the best photo. My best photo I need the worst photo for the for the the algorithm The photos there were a few photos from that night of him at the White House that did not help his cause. He just looked not the most comfortable, that's all I'll say. so U, And for me, it just seemed like, I think with Nate and again, a fan of his work. guy who was talked about wanting to open an amusement park, it just seemed like a poor business decision. Mhm. Yeah It is, I mean, it's yeah, he's someone who has pretty, you know, has stayed out of politics for the most part, his comedy has never been about politics is u, you know, I think he's been very deliberate about it. So while people I guess werere not surprised, you could say, okay, he's a southern comedian and, you know s He's a rich guy. He's a rich white guy that tends to skkew a certain way Yeah, but He has never really, you know, done anything to point in that direction before. So I guess that's why I was surprised and that's why I think a lot of people were surprised You know, a lot of people writing, you know, that they're going to be, you know, not going to shows anymore or people saying I bought tickets, but now I'm not going to go and But I don't know how it will affect his bottom line Be you can also swing the other way and get some new fans too, which I know this happens with some of these people Yeah, but does Nate want to be a MGA comedian? That's a good question. And the problem is that we don't know because he has not said a word about it since since this happened I'll say this, his account doesn't want him to be a Maca comedian. Yeah. You want to be a comedian for everybody You want Yeah, because I don't think that I don't the only person's bottom line that is helped Well, It hurt Nate's bottom line because he's bigger than every Mga comedian. You know what I mean? Like there's nothing he's going to gain from losing people who are like, I just think that guy's funny You know, I've talked about he's the befuddled dad that you always need in standup comedy, the dad who's like, I don't know how to do anything character cuts across like race and ethnicity and religion you know, and socialoeconomic background and politics Why would you suddenly put that in a box? It was years before Tim Allen felt comfortably be like, by the way, I'm also a super mean Republican And none of us were surprised, but it took a while. It was like after home improvement, I believe I just don' I just to me Just last week I got invited to do a thing That wasn't explicitly political. It was just it was a pride event. at some point they changed the details and ended up realizing they wanted me to sit across from a from a Democratic politician And I was like No. you know, and that's not even somebody who I have any sort of real beef with, but I was like, I don't want to in league with politicians just generally And and it's I actually called a friend of mine, Nido Green, a great comedian. And I was like, Is this somebody actually should be sitting here? I wass like, No, And so For me, I don't know why This is really like, if anything, mate, this is like me trying to help you Who are the people around you who are supposed to say, donon't do that Yeah, whether whether you're that politically, whether that's your politics or not, that's not a good business decision for you, Nate. It's not a good. It doesn't help your brand in anyway. Even if that's your politics, if you're nate and you're trying to be like guy, you know, sort of like be The you know, Seinfeld took years before you let us know his politics. you know? like, you know, if you're trying to be just like somebody for everybody, then that was just a bad business move Yeah. it was interesting. We did some reporting around it and it did seem like He had conversations with his team about it ahead of time. They knew that this could be an issue and that it could, you know affect things and that it could affect his perception. And he just was like, I'm just such a big UFC fan that I have to go anyway. And that's the part that doesn't quite make sense to me. I used to be a huge USC fan. So I relate to the fact that like this is a thing that I love And there's a version of this where I could have there where I might have felt like, oh, I should go The thing I don't get is not recognizing that the UFC today is not the thing the UFC was even likeike ten years ago Yeah, and that going to a UFC match is not the same as going to Donald Trump's birthday party UFC match Yeah, I think that I think like I wouldn't go me personally, I wouldn't go to UFC event in Vegas at the UFC places where they do UFC events That's one Um, Mm So But then when you put it at the White House, at Donald Trump's house There is no way I'm going Mm Throughout the history of the White House, going to the White House is a political decision But now it is not only a political decision, but it is a caic and toxic decision based on what this administration is doing Yeah. it did make me wonder if there are other secret MAa comedians out there who we just don't know about, I mean, because that Nate is that as in his politics, like who else is out there? I mean, for years, I would say a lot like there was this there was this idea that like comedians were generally left leaning And I was like, no, it's just the left leaning ones are the ones who talk about it because left leaning is a is a is a funniyer' like a you can be a comedian and be on the left and that's a funny comedy position because you're sort of always punching up There certainly have been there are certainly just as many right wing comedians as our left wing comedians. It just for a long time, it wasn't a comedically viable position to say you were a right wing comedian. But that's changing, maybe Yeah. I think it's it's well It's maybe better for branding. I still don't know if it it's commerally viable I don't know, you know, well, you know, u, you know, I have not watched Tony Hinscliff do special, but I'm not hearing great things You know, I think I think maybe there's a short term a short term benefit, but I don't know that it lasts for over time. Yeah. I mean, that was what was so interesting too was that Tony Hitchcliff and Shanlis were also at that fight But nobody was surprised by that. That didn't get any attention because that's expected at this point. Well, no I mean, Tony Hinchcliff has basically made himself like a henchment to Donald Trump'soker. Like, why wouldn't he be there And I think Shane, we might have been might have gotten more pushback. but after the Kevin Hart Rast, I think a lot of people who are sort of borderine, Shane Gills fans like Oh, you're over there now. Yeah., you know, that was another substack of yours that I really quite enjoyed was the eulogy for Rast Um, I will I wanted to share this tidbit with you is that I shared it on my Instagram And I got a little question mark from Jeff Ross, who was a who is not thrilled with that piece, I don't think. becauseuse that's that's his business Was it just a question mark? Was that all it was? was it was kind of a, I don't remember exactly what he said, but it was like what's this about, you know? I mean, I The funny thing is is like people People took that really seriously and got really in their feelings about it When clearly, if you want to do a roast, do a roast. I like I dont have the power to stop you from doing a roast. Yeah. You're not you're not going to stopping it Yeah, no. And I think people like, you can't stop the ros. Yeah, I don't think I did you think I really thought I could by writing a substack The thing that I think is funny and I wonder how Jeff feels about this now. can't have gone the way you wanted it to Mhm. Yeah, Like 'causeuse is my big question about this. Like So after Tom Brady's roast, Tom Brady went on some podcasts somewhere and was like, yeah, that was I wish there hadn't been as many jokes about my kids and my family. L he regreted the jokes that are about his family that' That's what he had to do Kevin Hart had to go do a whole press conference on the brereakfast Cub about the roast after the roast Who's going to want to be on the center of attention for that next year? And I also think it's going to get it's going to get smaller and smaller too if they keep going in that direction because The bigger people they ask are going to be like, why would I risk my reputation in my career to do this Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's basically either Dwayne the Rock Johnon or nobody. Like I think he's the only one who might show up because he sort of shows up for everything and and maybe knows who he's getting into But I don't know like can you imagine them going Tina Fay, Do you want to be do you want to be roasted on the Netflix roast Yeah Wanda Sykes, do you want to do you want to be roasted on the Netflix roast Yeah, she talked about how they she would you asked her to do it and she wouldn't do it dont So I Jeff that's funny. I get if Jeff Ross is questioning it, I just would my question would be like is that how you want these to go that the person who is the center of the roast has to go on a press tour afterwards to explain and apologize and to say, let me let me let me clear this up. I can't imagine That's how you wanted to go. And I remember I interviewed Sarah Silverman back in the day on Tolly Bias years ago. and she said that after the road she was on one year, she's like, I was in bed for three days afterwards. because it's just it's It is by its nature a brutal thing. But now the brutal is so international and it's not even about friends doing it anymore I don't know how this is sustainable as an event If it's going to be a thing where everybody who's at the center of it has to then go on an explanation tour afterwards Chronic migraine, fifteen or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more, can make me feel like a spectator in my own life. In Botox, onabacha Linum toxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those with fourteen or fewer headache days a month. It's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine preventive treatment Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lugarics' disease, Myasthenia Gravis or Lamberd Eaten syndrome and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit Botoxpronicmigraine. com or call one eight hundred four four Botox to learn more I don't know if you saw what Trevor Noah said about it recently, but he had a quote that I thought really summed it up. The problem with the roast was He said, quote, The Black comedians told jokes about the people who were there comedians told jokes about black people. I'm wondering if that resonates with you No. that's, I mean, that's exactly it. but and and I wrote this in the subsect that like This has been the history of the tradition of the roast. Since the days of the Friars Club. and this is or since those roasts used to broadcast on TV, the Dean Martin roasts every Black celebrity was if being made fun of about all the stereotypes about black people Not necessarily about whereas the white celebrities it's about them as individuals and what they in with the space they take up in the world. And so that's the way it's always been But at least it was still people who were in community together. and that's what's happened now is like peopleeople are not necessarily even like tell the difference between a comic on the Kevin Hart Rast who was like, I'm friends with Kevin and I do want to roast him a little bit, but I actually want to express my love him, like Naim or Regina or like Regina Hall Sian a ta L likeike you can tell these people like, I'm going to make fun of you, but I love you Whereas like there was so many of those where' like, I don't there's no love here. Yeah. The whole roast thing kind of relates to this other big moment from your podcast that I wanted to talk to you about, which is this Ted Danson episode that you put out, which I thought was just really incredible conversation that you had. I think I reached out to you after and said how much I enjoyed it You know, seems like you're trying to have these really honest conversations on this new podcast and that was one that that really hit the mark, I think, and you know, made a lot of headlines as well Um Can you just talk about, you know, why you wanted to have him on and talk ahead of time that you wanted to have that conversation about You know, his Blackface incident at a roast many years ago or how did that come together So it's all started because he had me on his podcast where everybody knows your name. I got like a you know, a reachout from a publicist or a booker saying Ted would like to have his podcast. and I've been a fan of Ted Dans since the Tuesday since the Cheers Days and even through the roast and through the good place and So I was happy to do his podcast knowing everything I know about Ted Danson. And as he mentioned on my podcast, there's a moment where I sort of like basically alluded to like, I've seen you be a white guy who knows when's who can admit when he's wrong. And he sort of looked at me like without saying there, arere you talking about the black face? And I looked back and I'm like, yeah, talk about the black face and we didn't talk about it. So I I came to understand that I think when Ted so when Ted got there that day for the podcast he did with me I asked him as I sort of asked people like is there anything you don't want to talk about? because I'm not trying to I want a good conversation. I would like a deep conversation, but I'm not trying to I'm not trying to nail you on anything that you're like, I really don't want to deal with that. So it's you know And so I asked was there anything you don't to talk about And he was like, no, we can go wherever you want to go. And I so I believe and he said this later that he showed up going like, I think I'm going to talk about this today. And he was sort of, in some sense like waiting for me to bring it up. And but when I brought it up, I had no idea how deep he was going to go into it I was really just trying to be like Hey, this is I can't sit up across you and talk to you without bringing this thing up. But he talked about his relationship with Heather McGee, who was anti, the author of the S of U us And how it sounds like she told her, she told him at some point, you need to really come correct on this eventually And so I think As he said in the podcast, I was he felt like If there was a space he could do it and feel like he wasn't going to be, you know, duelly like beaten up for it or just, you know, that I was going to be able to handle it. And so that's what happened. But it certainly was not a thing I thought we would spend, I don't know, all that time talking about But once we got into it, I could tell like, oh, he needs to do this so I'm going to let him cook. And then I thoughtelt like my big thing was like, once he's done, I need to make sure I get him out of here in a way that doesn't that he's not completely broken down by this podcast. Yeah Did you hear from all from him at all since? did it didid he feel okay about the way that it did kind of go far and wide afterwards Yeah, so I would say this. So like we recorded that weeks before it came out because I've been recording a bunch of podcasts. So we had been in touch even before it came out. He's like because I would like he would like I would text him and be like, Hey how you doing? He's like, I'm feeling like's saying he was feeling good about it You know, and that he was glad he had the conversation. I'd let him know well, it's coming out. I' let him know when it was coming out so he could be prepared for it M And then came out And sort of very quickly it's sort of like I saw it like I started to make some waves on social media. you know, once I saw TMZ got it Um, and I was very ke Like the clip we put up from the podcast is us about to have the conversation because I didn't want to put up a clip that was like That sort of distilled it to two minutes and you thought that was the conversation because I thought this is easily going to be weaponized against him If we do this wrong So I put up a clip that was clear us about to talk about the conversation Um, And then when it came out and started going around, I reached out and said, how are you doing? And Ted, as he said on the podcast is not online, but he said he'd heard from people. He said his daughter had listened to it and she liked it. And apparently she saw, she didn't even know that it was happening until social media told her about it. And so I think she said he said that she was nervous listening to it, but she liked it And then he said, his publicist who was the same pubose as he had back in the day listened to it and she liked it. And I think at that point he felt like mission accomplished. L my publicist liked it and my daughter liked it. So I think it really And like he said, he's not on social media. And I told, I was like, lookook man Overwhelmingly people are being nice about it. I was like even TMZ is being nice about it. So I said people, I think it shows that people do love you and appreciate the fact that you finally did this. And then of course One of the people who was shitty about it was, of course, Meijen Kelly. Oh yeah. whichich again is like mission accomplished Famous Black face proponent, Meghan Kelly was not a fan of the conversation Yeah, no, it felt like when she talked about it, it felt like, you feel sad that nobody wants to talk to you. That felt like nobody's ever come to talk to me about my black w. It felt like airl like it sounded like, oh, you don't have friends is what you're saying. That's what this is about.ody's ever forgven me for anything. But yeah, I mean, so After it came out, I reached out to him and he and he was so yeah, he was in the best way possible knew that it was going to possibly kick up some dirt, but also in the best way possible wasn't online all day looking for the dirt. And so I just checked it with and let him know they're like not that it it's the people who the outlets you respect are not being that dirty about it I don't think you have that much in common with Meghgan Kelly, but one thing that did occur to me is that you both used to work at cable news channels and have now kind of gone off on your own Um, and I'm curious what it's been like for you to Leave CNN behind, you know, be have this more independent career where you're doing your podcast and your substack. without, you know, a big media organization behind you, what has that been like? Be I'm sure there are pros and cons to it. I mean, in some sense, it felt like I really sort of started to understand it when I was like Oh, this is what I was doing before I had before CNN, but now I have a bigger platform to do it from Before I was at CNN, I was booking my own like solo show, the WCI Bell curve any racism about an hour. I was booking stand up, whenever I could get it I was writing, I had a blog on my website. so like this is You know, I was also supporting other friends projects and doing things with other people. So at some point I realized, oh, this is just that again, but it's actually easier than it was when I did it fifteen years ago And that actually gave me a little bit of like, okay, I can I can do this. I't have I didn't have so many children and I was't married, wasn't take care of my I was taking of my mom. but like It just was like It sort of helped me go, oh, you can do this. you've done this before. and it's going to be easier now than it was fifteen years ago Mm Yeah, it certainly means you know, there was a time where I had like a staff of people who were around me helped me do things and now it is me. So like I as an only child, it feels very natural to be a one man band, but it's certainly means you have to be very careful about where you put your energy and your time because It's easy to put your energy and time into things that aren't fruitful and then look up and be like, no, I just could I could have put this somewhere else. So That's the big challenge is making sure I'm invested in things that even if they don't pay off financially right away that they like, is this a thing I want to spend my time in Yes or no, and things that I'm that I'm not I, you know, I've certainly cut down some like some other commitments where I feel like I just don't have the space and the bandwidth to do these things like to sort of be involved in things the way I used to be I'm also curious as someone who' spent so much time at CNN, how you're feeling about company now that it's sort of on the verge of becoming something very different potentially It's looking like with the merger that Barry Weiss could be end up running CNN in addition to CBS newews, know I think we've already seen people like Kara Swisher and Anderson Cooper say that they are not interested in working for her So I don't know how it's all gonna shake out, but what's your take on that as a former CNN person I mean, so there's still people there who I know, like a lot of the on air people I know who were there before I got there. and then my boss, Amy Tellis is still there. And I just feel bad for them. L I just feel like like because on a very basic level I was certainly at seeing it was like a more left leaning progressive voice than they normally have on that channel. But on a very basic level, the people who work there on camera, most the vast majority of them Just want to tell you what's happening and give you the facts about what's happening. You know. now, they certainly have opinion in there, but I do think that they are there are a lot of good decent people who work there whose jobs are going to be made harder Barry Weiss because let's be clear. they're not giving Barry Weiss that job because she's done such a good job at CBS News That's that's what's confusing to me. It's like How could someone see what's happened at CBS News so far in sixty minutes and say, I think she needs more responsibility. I think let's give her CNN too. Yeah, I mean, there's all this evidence that I've seen because I follow all this stuff. like it's sports, but like The damage she's done to CBS newews And then the damage that CBS has done by Canson Colbert and giving it to Byron Allen has hurt the morning show people there's certain It's this funny thing that people just leave their TV's on, whatever they turn off at night is what they turn on in the morning. people who still have TV's like that. And now they're not watching Colbert at night and they're not watching comics unleash. So by the time the morning comes along, their TVs are not up the CBS morning show. and the morning show is supposed to be the money maker So Barry Weiss and people who in CBS have actually hurt their money making show And that's how you know This isn't even about money, it's about power. and if they have enough power, they'll just steal the money So I feel bad for CN because There's been a lot of change that that network since, I mean, since I left, there's been like two different people leading that network and that I know about the network, the reason why the network was relevant for because the period of time I was there, there was about eight years That CNN was the CNN that that people sort of miss And that was the Bourdain CNN. that was when I was there Lisa Ling, Morgan Spurlock was there. There was like this sort of like where these people, we all went in there and made our sort of episodic Docu series. gave the network relevance outside of breaking news And while there are still like I know that Craig Ferguson has a show there now There was like an ecosystem there that it felt like you were at a cool spot for a while that is just not there anymore and I don't believe that Barry Weiss is going to get that back. If anything, she'll probably bring in Ben Shapiro to do his Docy series, which I I'd love to see it. Uh, you know, so I would in a very shot in for it away. but uh But yeah, like there's so you at the very least people, the reason why CNN was on everywhere It's because people like in doctor' offices and and at airports and you know, at the gas station or wherever, because people just generally could trust it is like, this is what is happening right now. And Barry Weise does not restore more trust to that. It takes trust away So I feel bad for people who still work there. and I certainly every nowight and again, fans of mine are like Could you go back to CNN and do that Barry Wise takes over means that chance, which was already small is now absolutely. Dead. So before we get out of here, I want to run through some sort of bigger picture questions. Sting with What would you go back and tell yourself when you were just starting out as a comedian, you know, performing What do you wish you had known when you started that it's more on you than you can ever believe. Like it's not like, you know, don't spend time in the back of a comedy club waiting for showbiz to come get you. The earlier you can start doing it yourself and building your own Build Build the aeropplane while it's in the air, the better you're going to be, the faster you're going to move forward and get to where you want to be, even if it's not where you think you want to go How has your relationship with ambition changed since those very early days, do you think So much of my ambition is tied into feeding and providing for my family, which includes my wife and my three kids and my mom. If I was a single person you know, I may have been able to retire after CNN. like I' able to be like, you know, I made enough money on that that I can just I can just scale back my life, move to a one room apartment and, you know, sort of studio apartment and do that. But so much of my bigger visions I definitely want I always want to make sure that I'm doing things that I want to do, that that I'm taking money for things I'm really excited about, or at least that I can sort of justify But it's all tied into like providing for my family. it's not really tied into my own personal ego anymore Is there something surprising that people either recognize you from or want to talk to you about when you get stopped by by people who who recognize you I mean, I'd say the favorite thing that people recognize before now that I feel really excited about is celebrity Jeopardy. which yeah. After I won, I was I was in Oakland standing outside a restaurant and a little boy who clearly just come from playing Little League baseball was like, Ohh my God And I was looking behind me like, what' he doing You're on celebrity Jeopardy. So celebrity Jeopardy has opened up a whole new demographic of people to me that were not available before, just by who that audience calls it, by who watches Jeopardy. So I think when people recognize me for celebrity Jeopardy, they also think 's cool because it means you're smart, which And I again smart for a celebrity, which is like strong for a two year old. But I think it's cool that like Part of my legacy is tied into being smart That's good and having been tested for my Sartis. What was the coolest thing or the sort of the most the thing that surprised you most about Be being on celebrity Jeopard So much of like what I've learned as a performer applied, like when I'm on stage doing stand up or if I'm working, the more I'm sort of just like of no mind and sort of Zen about it, the better it can be. Like on Jeopardy you need to really go like Zen because the categories change so much and the things and you need to that you needed to sort of like, you can't be tied to the result. It's very it's very good for practicing like a state of zen no mind. Like if you when I was doing well on jeopardy, it's because I was not like trying to win it is because I was just like waiting for the question to pop Okaykay, I know that. I think, you know, just sort of really U and that's where when I'm on stage when stand upp too and I'm not like trying to be funny when I'm just like, finding that the thing that athletes call the zone that it's very similar to that Gunon Celebr Jeopardy. The other thing because I did tournament of Champions, which you do when you win celebrity Jeopardy. It's up against regular Jeopardy questions like up against regular Jeopardy champions. And those questions, some of them I couldn't even tell you what they were asking. They were so hard And but I would turn to the people who were to left the contestants left the right of me and I could smell their nervousness And I was like, oh, They're battling with I'm nervous being on camera in a way that I'm not I'm just battling against the fact I don't know any of this shit So it's true that they dumb down the questions for celebrity jeopardy Well, let's be clear. I want to be very clear because I think On celebrity Jeopardy, it's a primetime show They actually do want the celebrities to be entertaining. So they so part of it is the game, but part of it is like getting to see Uh, you know, Stehven Weber like just sort of be be funny. You know what I mean? So like if the questions were too hard, we would not be able to be as entertaining as we are on celebrity Jeopardy. So, yes, but the questions are I would say they're like they're like level one celebrity j Je. They're like level one Jeopardy questions instead of level ten like you don't regular Je When you look back on your career, is there something that you said no to at the time that you wish you could go back and say yes to I said no to so many I mean, not that I had a lot of, but I just was like really was very like, I don't want to do that. I just wish I'd said yes to my own creative ambitions earlier. I just wish I'd been like, Like if I' started the bel I could have started the belker ten years earlier, but I just didn't I was supposed to do that or didn't know. I just wish I'd said yes to myself. I'm trying to think of outside things Like I never was asked to audition for anything that I was like that I said no to, like People often like You should have been on the daily show. They literally never called. L you know what I mean? It' like I didn''s I've had lots of friends on the Daily show. they never called. You should have been on SNL. I never was in a position to audition for that. So I'm trying to think of like, things I should have said Yes to. No, it's it's hard it's u No, I really just, like I said, when I look back it's about I should have said yes to myself sooner Hm Oh no, here we go. hereere we go. I got it I got I got it. This is actually becauseuse I was trying like what is So when I was a Fairly young as a young comedian based on how I am now U my first week featuring in a comedy club was in that Sanrcco punch line And I was featuring for Mitch Hedberurg Mitch Hedberg. As we know, legend and it was a living legend. likeike everybody knew who wass a legend when he was alive. And at the end of the week, he was like, man, I really enjoyed your stuff. Here's my number. Give me a call. We can go on the road and do stuff together. and I was too afraid to call Mitch Hedburn. O yeah, that's stough. That would just been a good life experience. Yeah, no, I just was like, he this is also before cell phones. So for some reason, I was like, I' I call his house, leeave a voice moment. I don't leave an answer scine message. I just felt weird when I shouldn't have felt weird. Mitch Hedberg told me to call him I should have called him. my flip side question is, is there anything that you said yes to at the time that you now kind of wish you could go back and say no to Five days a week of totally biased on theet on the FXX network doing it as opposed to it once a week. Yeah, once a week. I think if we were doing once a week, we might still be on the air. L I might have figured out how to do once a week, but as I was trying to figure out how to do once a week, we went to five days a week and I was just there was never. That was never a good idea. I think they would change that too I mean, you've done so much between that was a late night show. you've done a, you know, the travel show kind of United Shades Is there something that's on your career bucket list? like something that you really want to do that you just haven't You've got the chance to do. you'veirected documaries which are fantastic, which we haven't talked about Um Is there something? Is there like a category of thing? I would like to direct like a proper like a narrative feature film. I would like to do I like to write and direct a narrative feature film. I don't really have acting ambitions, I don't need to be in it, but I would like to direct a narrative feature. I like I have ideas for films that I think about like, but it's again, it's about where you put your energy and time and right now it just wouldn't make sense for me to put my energy and time into. Uh, into that, but yeah I've been asking guests this question. They say you should never meet your heroes I'm looking for a story that either proves that right or wrong Um I was thinking of one for you. You can I mean, you can you can tell me anything you want, but u I did see you met Robert De Niro recently and that seemed like that was a unique experience I mean It's funny because thats's like not a thing that was even on my bucket list because I just didn't imagine like why would I ever be in the position to meet Robert De Niro again becausecause I'm not in the acting world? And he's certainly not a guy who' popping up on podcasts or at comedy clubs. Um, notot since the King of comedy So When I meet people like that, I'm very aware of like don't even expect them to even look you in the eye. You know what I mean? Like like I met Robert De Niro in the at a private dinner at the Tribecca Film Festival where it's like a room full of A list celebrities. and one of the people from the Tribec Film Festiv was like, Do you want to meet Bob? And I was kind of like Do I have to? I mean, not that I didn't want to But I didn't want to like make, I don't want anybody to think that I'm like trying to be the guy that wants to meet everybody I'm not trying to be kind of get a selfie guy Um until I know you then I want to selfie. But uh Yeah, so when I met him He looked He looked at me, looked me in the face, said nice to meet you. I got no sense that he knew who I was. cool but I didn't expect to know I was, but the cool thing was Then I got called back next year to interview him and Martins Corsese Casino. and then that went well and they called me back to interview them for taxi driver. and when I saw him This year taxi driver, it was like the first time I felt Robert J look at me like, Hey, the way that he would have looked at Henry Hill ood fellow. like Hey it's it's a young guy. who he's on who's doing some good things. So That was a good moment to have Robert De Niro walkedast me and look at me with a like, Ohh, I like when that guy's around. So yeah. An other heroes that you've met that either went really well or really poorly? I'm trying to think really poorly, you know H I been in Like a brown I think when you're stand up comedian, you sort of very early on learn to stay out of the famous person's green room and so like So I think that means that like you learn don't expect and you also work with famous people and by the by the third night you sort of they just become regular people. So I think with I don't I've always tried not to have high expectations of people. So when I meet people, I tend to have super low expectations. so it is very easy for them to surpass them I got invited to the AFI triribute to Denzel Washington years ago because of my Denzel Washington podcast And my wife insisted that I go meet Denzel Washington during a break in the show. He was sitting at his table surrounded by his family and Spikely And' like, you have to meet him because you're here. And I'm like, I don't want this is weird. but she made me get out of my chair, walk me over. And I walked and I walked up awward awkwardly said ale of Spikely, who I know a little little tiny bit and walked up behind him and this journalists who knew me and knew my podcasts, like, I'll introduce you to them. I know I'll introduce you to him And so I saw her lean over to like Stehanie Crbell and he sort of looked behind him and looked at me And he smiled and he stood up and he goes I love you, Nigga he said mind He said myind digger like from training,. That's what he said And uh And he said he loved me. And and just I think he just this is when United Stes was on. And I think it was like It was him H notot knowing me for my Denzel podcast, but knowing me because of United Chades. And it sort of reminds you that That stretch I had on the United Stades, that show sort of got into got everywhere. And if you turn past see it somewhere you're going to see my face and my face was different than everybody else's face. so If you were a person who liked faces different than the regular CNN face, then I would pull you in. And so he was a fan of mine from United Stades and was asking me, what are you up to next? What are you going to do next? And I remember just being like not being able to probably say tellell Denzel Washington what I was up to next because I was like you know, I felt very much meeting him was I felt the same way meeting him. In the evening Malcol M x when he me Elijahhamed he s of walks the stairs and has one tear on his chee. That's how I felt meeting Denzel Washington. So again, we're not the best of friends. I don't summer with him. I keep my expectations low. I don't need any more from him than that. So yeah, I think I keep my expectations low, none of my heroes have disappointed Well, it's nice to know that he's a fan of yours. You can check out new episodes of Kamo's Wh's With me podcast on YouTube Wherever you listen to podcast, you can find his substack at wcamalbell. sububstack. com. Camal, thanks for doing this. Thank you All right, I want to thank W. Camaal Bell again for that incredible conversation. I highly recommend you check out his podcast, Who's withith Me on YouTube where you can also watch this podcast at the Obsess Channel. Please subscribe, leave us comments, leave us likes, let us know what you think of the show. we want to hear from you You can also listen to this podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts and leave us a rating and review there as well. Thank you so much to our producer, Rachel Passer Its Great fourourth of July and we'll be back with an all new episode of Obsess the podcast very soon