Catharsis and Diane Keaton Influence

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Know your sleep score with Apple Watch. iPhone eleven or later required? Olivia Wilde, welcome to my podcast. Thank you. An honor to be here. We were just talking a lot about film projection, and you've been on this amazing tour with the invite ' you shoot the film thirty five, you're striking thirty five prints But there's such a romantic nature to what you've been seeing on your tour. Oh yeah, it's been the highlight of the post production experience and the release experience has been meeting the projectionists in each of these movie palaces that we've gone to. So we did this really fun regional festival tour and we went to some of the greatest movie palaces in the country to the Castro in San Francisco, which has just been remodeled. They put a ton of money into it. The city is so supportive of the arts in general, but specifically of the castro and everything happening there We went to the music box in Chicago, We went to the coolidge in Boston. We were able to not only see the film properly, you know, on thirty five in a way that I think completely changes the experience of course But we also got to meet these projectionists who It occurred to me when I was kind of watching them work and blown away by the intricacy of their work, the grace presence. The thing that blew my mind was like, This is the last crew member. This is a member of our crew. This is someone who is just as responsible for this audience's experience of the film as anyone else on our crew. And I felt so emotional about that that I got to then be there meeting this crew member of our part of our team who you know, typically you just would never get the experience of getting to meet them and connect with them and they are handling your film, your baby in this incredibly skillful way that I just was blown away by it. It's a dying art and they have such intense skill sets that I know they're passing on to each other, but Boy do I want more money put into this so that they can actually, you know, keep keep train There's a reason what you said just now, I think is the most important piece of it because it all you start film made in Rochester. you have this hand crafted, beautiful process.. They ship it out. you get it as a filmmaker. You film your film. I think it then goes to what phhoto cam finished there, which is interesting. And then the projection is projection to your film. You're one hundred percent right. they are just as important because that they're the last thing Y that's in between don't do their job well, the experience is ruined. And the thing is they always do their jobs well. They're unbelievable. And for me the part that blows my mind is the changing of the reels. L that it's such a seamless process of going from one projector to the other. is It blows my mind that they can do it so perfectly. and I think that audiences sometimes aren't even aware of what's happening back in that booth. And by the way, sometimes not even really thinking about the fact that when you're watching a print, You're seeing it, it's almost like seeing a live performance because it will never look like that again The light is moving through it in a very specific way. The grain is moving in a specific way to that moment. It is a different experience than the next audience will see. And it is not the same, even if you shoot on thirty five, but then people are watching at DCP They're watching a frozen grain structure that that just can't possibly feel as interactive. I think subconsciously it's a totally different experience. It's alive. Like like I was my wife and I went and saw a terminator two the other day in seventy mill at the Vista. and I was like so cool. It feels like like youre going bowling without the bumpers. Yeah. becausecause anything can anything can happen Exactly it. And like I'm okay with the imperfections. I'm okay with like I mean, like like you see I've seen some pristine prints like Lawrence of Arabia, which is like When they switch the reels and for people listening to this, if you're not familiar you have a platter sometimes, you put it all together in one platter. someome theaters do that or you do the reel to reel, which is even crazier to think about because they have to time it perfectly, but just keep an eye out for that cigarette burn. Exactly. And I love the burn. too. I love seeing it. It's partart of the movie. It's part of the movie and you can really once I think your brain is aware of that layer. Yes, I think it does something interesting. I think it's like more of a proactive psychological experience. You are, you know, if you watch a three and a half hour movie that's a film print, you're more exhausted than if you watch, you know seven hours of a digital thing Yeah because your brain is in a very different state it's experiencing something in an interactive way. And obviously You know, you are seeing your brain is kind of tricking you because you're seeing like still images flickering by. but the I don't know. I mean, I could go on about this for way too long. I just You're on the right show. So my show is called on film. So yeah, it's literally designed for this. Yeah. I always talk about the fact Shooting on film also changes the experience on set in such a profound way. It's way more precious. The stakes are higher. Everybody is just at a different level of focus, but also I think it does something. I think it puts a kind of spell on the set. There's this moment where you hear the film rolling through the camera and everything changes. it's like the weather in the room changes. and I think that creates something that allows for to feel a little bit more permission to like depart from reality. I would say it makes acting a little less embarrassing. this feeling of like If something has just shifted in the environment, we can hear it whirring through the camera. you can also After a while, you can feel when you're near a rollout. L you can start to hear the sound change. the mouth I mean, we had like four hundred foot mags, so it's like fif, you know, it's a couple of minutes. It's not that long But you are at times, I mean, we had a few thousand foot mags we put on for particularly long scenes. and then you can see in the invite which ones are you can tell. but We really We were a film that embraced the the as you're saying, the kind of risk of it, like the bumpers are off with such great reward because it completely changes the experience of every stage of production itself, of watching the experience of watching the film And I really think like it changes the filmmaker's experience because it extends the experience of making the film to the point where then in those projection booths, I was again with a crew member, feeling like here we are, we're still in the process of making this because this is the last job And I just really I appreciated that for the first time on this movie. And if you go to the movies alone, I met a projectionist recently named Lillian who works at the Nighthawk in Brooklyn. And she's like, if you're in a movie alone, I'm with you in the booth So you're not really alone. You're not really alone. And we're in this together, but also I like going to the movies alone. Yeah. It's like one of my favorite things to do, weirdly enough. And I love going with my wife, but I also love going alone. Oh yeah. But like when you're in a theater like that, it's important. but like obviously, you know Babylon, of course. But there's a dialogue at the end of that film with Gean Smart and Brad Pitt, which I always think about where He's basically like like, u fact that his career has come to an end, we're going from the silent era to talkies. And she says something so profound that it makes the hair of my arm stand up, which is in a hundred years, someone's gonna turn on your work and you're gonna flicker back to life.. And I just got chills. And so the other day I'm watching Lawrence of Arabia and a Peter O'oul, which by the way, it's his first movie, which makes no sense Um and he's he's alive O my screen as a character. But like Buster Keaton is alive when I watch the cameraman or the Genal or whatever it is. like Yes. Do you feel that way about you do in the sense of like you're going to come back to life yearsars from now, not too dark I love that. I mean, I think It feels like it takes a certain amount of hubris to assume that you will have that kind of longevity that people will want to revisit your films in a hundred years, you know. We should be so lucky that someone would be like, you know what? let's put on the invite. Damn right. I certainly hope so. and I do feel that it is this relic, it is this kind of offering obviously The thing about film is we need to preserve the film and it's so sad to think of all the films we've lost that haven't been preserved. But it's worth it because it is like bringing people back to life. And it is this kind of magical experience. We were just talking about the lab. I went to the Kodak lab in Queens the other day and I got to watch them processing the film. And our lab was actually Photochem out here, but we used you know, Kodak film stock and we love those guys and I really wanted to see their lab shout up Esa Bendet at Kodak. love Yeah. And Anne in New York. they are such an incredible team and they really want to help filmmakers have access to the film stock to the labs. they are doing the Lord's work. They are like if you are a filmmaker, you can go to them and say, I want to I need access to this material and I need access to the labs and they will work with you depending on what you can do with your budget.ike they're incredibly passionate about this and I had never seen the film being processed It was absolutely incredible. It was It's a handful of people who are the best at what they do who are so Skillful. stage of the processing, you realize that if they weren't so good at their jobs, the film is ruined. And I have never once thought, o I hope that film we just sent to the lab comes back, okay, I take it granted. I'm like, they're going to nail it. It's gonna look beautif Of worse if the film sits in the developer for thirty seconds too long, if it dries at the wrong temperature, if it gets mishandled in the darkroom, there's so many points at which it can go wrong. It's like the webb telescope. It's like onene tiny thing can go wrong and the whole thing is ruined. It felt so emotional. I was like this Again, a partart, a portion of our crew And I felt that, you know, there actual physical handling of the film. That's the other thing.' very there're very few experiences these days that are still based in tactile connection to materials. that we are talking about people who are making this actual material, loading it into cameras, then taking it from the camera, then taking it to a lab and actually physically handling it. I mean, the fact that you have to get a film print cleaned and sent back to the lab is because it's been handled by people love that and it's becoming more and more you know rare and valuable This is really geeky, but sometimes when a film comes out that I love, I'll go see it multiple times. But of Oppenheimer for example, I saw it ten times because I wanted to see it in every format. But I bring that up because I eventually got to the end of the run and I was at like the end tail end of a seventy mill print that had been running for like thirty month. But it was fucking aw. I was like this thing has been alive for like months and it's like so great. And I'm like, I don't care that it's a little off or maybe a little flicker or maybe there's a little bit of like scratches. I'm like it's a lived print. I love that. I mean, I didn't dust our print. I didn't we didn't do a dusting because I was like, no, I want want I love it. There were a few really egregious like big dust that the Adam was like, Olivia. Check the gate. We gotta get rid of that. It's on your face. I'm like, but it's beautiful. But it also our film is very clearly a love letter to films from the seventies. And so I think the texture that even the dust and the hair gave us kind of sububconsciously brings you back to that era as well. I completely agree. I usually open this show with this question, which I would love to hear your answer to this because Gring up movie theaters were where I felt sae. It's where I feel safe now. I just love being in a theater. There's just nothing And also the conversations you have with people when you leave, even strangers just meeting in the lobby outside the vista and just talking about what you just watch. Yes go to Pam's coffee coffee. they have an amazing iced Americana. It's not an ad, but they do. But I wanted to ask you growing up, what was your pivotal theatrical experience, the one that made you understand power of the communal experience of sitting with people and like what that meant for you. I mean, it was multiple It was multiple experiences for sure. But I grew up in I was born in New York City. It was a kid in New York, but I was pretty young I was about five when we moved to DC. and I grew up in Georgetown. And we had the little Georgetown cinema And I saw everything there, everything, I mean, I just went to the movies all the time. There was I remember when Jurassic Park came out. And I didnidn't I was willing to camp out the night before. I wanted to Um What year did the first Dassic Park? ninety three. He did Schindler's and Dassic Park the same year. In the same year Yeah Like he released them released them. I mean, I think he was shooting Schindler's list while editing Jurassic Park That's probably healthy. I can imagine that that was a helpful way to get through shooting Schindler's list. I think he was dressed. How could you do But that must have helped. Imagine you're like, this day was so profound Yeah and intense. I must go and edit edit like T Rex running exactly. I mean, it really is interesting. I mean two of the best movies ever made I mean I think I think that's extreme. Copola did conversation in Godfather two in the same year. That also, I think is a perfect like double feature to be working on your brain. I think that they're so different Yeah Well, I remember going, so I was nine. U and I remember asking my dad if I could really like bring a sleeping bag and sit outside. the same age. Yeah. was I'm eighty four. Yeah, exactly. Okay, okay. that wass crazy. I was nine too o. And I remember waiting in line, not being allowed to stay the night would have But I remember sitting outside the theater And it was a slightly bigger theater. It was up the street and I wanted to see it properly. And We'll never forget feeling of watching that film, not only because it was so extraordinary. We had never seen anything like it, but because I had lined up outside with those people. We were already a community. We were bonding, the anticipation was Palpably exciting and this feeling that we were all experiencing something new and special and that we had been changed by it and we were seeing it opening weekend I think now people probably more often have that experience with live music. I think it still is thriving in music. I would argue, I don't know enough to say that. I'm sure there's people in the music industry who have gripes about the way that live experiences are being kind of you know, they've probably evolved in a similar way, but certainly for films there don't have as many opportunities to Join with a community and not only experience the film, but all of the experiences around the film. It's the moment before. and as you said, the moment after when you're in the lobby and you're like, we've bonded, we've been somewhere. And that has also been the best part of the invite release experiences I've been able to go to so many theaters and talk to audiences before and after and I see how they're bonded afterwards, they're now connecting with strangers next to them And that is the dream, that the experience is not just what you put on film and create, but it is about happens now before and after the experience you've created that changes people's lives. And especially with your film, and I'm not going to give anything away, but the ending is so perfect and earned that I want to have conversations with people about what's going to happen next in these characters lives. And I don't want to know definitively. because I think a lot of the film, this idea, there's a line, which I'll sayve, but I can cut if you need to about where Penelope's character Penelope Penelopei C' character says like you can either have a new relationship or you can just or yes or you're done, essentially. I'm like that was such a really interesting way of speaking to people who have been through a relationship together and then going, let's just start over. Let's reset. Well, I think it's very optimistic and that is straight to Esther Perrell, who was our consultant on the film. She's an incredible Um, sexologist, psychologist, really anthropologist. She has studied relationships in several cultures for more than twenty years. She wrote a book called Mating in C capaptivity, which is extraordinary.. I am a huge fan of hers, I've been for a long time. So When we were reshaping this grip together as a creative team I brought her on board as a consultant and I asked her if we could use that exact point you just brought up because it's something from her work that really changed my life. and the idea of it is Our lives, we only have a few really profound relationships Sometimes they're with different people, sometometimes they're with the same person. It's up to you. But anyone you know who's been married for a good deal of time has had more than one relationship with that person. And I think it can relieve a lot of the pressure of relationships if you understand that you might not be at a breaking point that ends things, but you might be at the breaking point of that chapter, that relationship The question is, are you interested in a new relationship with this person? Meeting where you are at this point in your life? notot when you're like twenty four and out of college and you know so so different than who you are maybe in your forties and you want different things, but chances are your partner also evolved And you have this chance to start a new relationship with them. And that just blew my mind. And I was like, we need this in this film. I want that to be what people leave with is this sense of acknowledgement that relationships take that level of engagement possibility that maybe This can work. Maybe the idea of long term love is possible, but it It requires reinvention. Well you open with that Oscar Wilde quote? Yes. Which was interesting considering your last name. Yeah, that was that an interesting like thing to have in the I thought the quote was brilliant. Thank you. I also think that quote is brilliant. and I'm going to read it real quick for the audience. one should always be in love That's the reason one should never marry. Yes U It is from a woment of no importance. It is Oscar Wilde is a A writer and a person that I've admired for a long time I love that quote in particular because it is so knowing and cynical, but also very romantic and that's kind of how I would define his writing about love. There is a very kind of irreverent, but emotional approach. It is always worth it to be in love But The fact is the way we often then except the kind of I don't know. This makes me sound so cynical, but the kind of marital sort of like the way people sort of abandon the act of actually being curious and being in love in an active way when they're married sometimes. And that marriage as an institution sometimes puts an end to the engagement in the loving and the curiosity and the All of that good stuff that does make love worth it I loved that that quote would kind of contextualize contextualize the film. I'm a big fan of that in both literature and film. I love when Woody Allen does it. I love I love the kind of nod to the audience saying This is the director's perspective on this and this is the kind of bubble you're entering into. and it allows to be established in a way. So when I added it, was in the edit and I thought I want people to know right away that This is a comedy and that they are allowed to laugh. But I also want them to know that this is, you know, going to be a love story of sorts. We tried it out and I was so happy with that. I was like, this actually I think alters the way you begin this story. And right away in the beginning of the movie, you beat Joe, Seth Rogan's character is clearly in this kind of disassociated state of like midlife crisis. And with the quote as context, I think you are able to understand more quickly kind of what this crisis might be about. Yeah and it's done in a non spoon feeding way. Its like it's perfectly ambiguous, but also like here's where we're kind of going But it's not like telling you exactly what's going to happen, which I love about it. It also makes me laugh because like so the quote is separated by a few seconds and when the first half comes up, it says, one should always be in love. and I feel the audience go like Oh, that's nice. very sentimental, very sweet. okay. And then the second half comes in. That is a reason one should never make. Let's get dark. And people are like, a and I can feel this sense of like, okay, this I see where we're going. It encompasses the film. Yeah. It really does. I want to talk about cinematography for a minute here because I have a few things I want to dive into The film itself is remarkably shot. As we mentioned, thirty five mil. There's going to be thirty five mil prints that are struck throughout the country. So make sure you look around for certain theaters here in LA. it's the Vista. But Aam What an amazing DP. I know he was your DP on the studio episode., which is hilarious because when that film roll runs down the hill, that's like one of the scariest. think that's real That's a real shot. That fil whel rolling down the hill happened and they caught it. And I couldn't believe it. I was like, that is VFX. There's no way that's real. And they were like, we fucking got it. And it was like five AM And I'm just still amazed that that's a real shot. Yeah. It's funny that we're having this conversation about film because the opening of that episode is so funny with like, Seth in the booth and the projectionist is like, this shit is so hard Whatever's like nobody wants this anymore. I'm like, yes, we do. funny. I know. Okay, so I did that episode of the studio, which obviously is me being there for two days only and yet in those two days I was able to witness Adam New Parbera and his extraordinary team crew that is unmatched, in my opinion working in such an ambitious way to create something is far more complex than I think people can even Oh yeah really understand because it is It is a matter of on that show, at least last season, I'm not quite sure how they'll approach it this season, but they each scene was a wner. So they had the wonner episode, of course, but each scene was a winner in every episode. and I was amazed because it's They move through environments. They do very tricky things. The driving shots blow my mind. Dving shots. When Ike and Set are in the car, the camera pulls away. Yes. Like home, That wasn't the best driving I've seen since like Phantom thread. Exactly. Like the way the camera wast. I agree And they have the most extraordinary studey camer operator, Mark Golly, who also was our study. Very cool. It It's an incredible crew. Adam has such a brilliant eye. He is a real real filmmaker. I absolutely adore him. And I met him on that set, of course, and I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute Who are you? What can I do to work with you because I'm in awe of this that I'm observing. And of course, Seth had the best things to say about him I asked him to read the script and he came on board And he was immediately passionate about the fact that we had to shoot this on thirty five. He said, Olivia, fight for it. Let's go. because of course, it's the first thing that disappears in your set of kind of dreams as a filmmakers becausecause Books Mart, don't worry darl, we're digit Digital Yeah. and beautifully Jot had amazing Lberes. Yes. Jason McCormick and then Maddie Lubitue. and they did magic worked magic with that. but Of course I always wanted to do it on film, but I just I didn't have the confidence push it through in the way that I finally did on this film. and took you know us all really being willing to, I mean, do whatever it took, really, we worked hard as a unit to make it happen. And I will say, Be I know your audience really understands this It's not that much more expensive and difficult and risky. They will try to scare you away from it. It's worth fighting for. And audiences care. I think that it's actually very valuable when it comes to marketing. I think that it is a part of the story that audiences really appreciate. and I'm so happy we fought for it because not only does it make the movie a lot better M the experience better as we've already covered. And I think audiences really appreciate it. So It's been remarkable to feel the support of the theaters and our distributor, A twenty four has been incredible about making these prints for us. becausecause it just makes me feel over and over again like I'm so happy that we fought so hard for this, but it really started with Adam. He was the one who was like, let's go. Let's just let's not, let's just be unwilling to give on this. And you know, was the same for our rehearsal time, which is the first thing that the other thing that goes away And we also shot the film in sequential order. We shot linearly. Yes. becausecause we could because we're on one location And none of us had ever done that before. So that was very cool. Vacation rental hosts can make or break a vacation. Luckily, Verbo makes it easy to find the ones who make it stress free. Verbo's Premier Hosts badge highlights vacation rental hosts with top tier listings. 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And then two days in San Francisco, where we shot all those exteriors, which was a beautiful way to end But everything on that stage was shot linearly and it was remarkable because not only of course, for performances you can imagine, it completely changes the experience. We were workshopping the material throughout the experience, truly a week before the end scene was shot, we didn't know what it would be. I mean, we were we were rolling into each scene this sense of real understanding where our characters were at that point. listening to your movie. We were listening to the movie I keep understanding that more and more as we discuss it because I just felt like the tone the even the plot was kind of revealing itself to us and all I had to do was ride it and make sure everyone was consistently wriding it with me. and That was incredible. but I'll also say shhooting linearly for the crew was Really exciting because they were able to participate in a way that I haven't experienced before, Because typically on a lot of film sets, the crew isn't even given the full script. People are getting sides. they can't possibly become emotionally invested because they don't really know what's going on. And if there have been scripts, you know, obviously the department has have the scripts, There are have been scripts left around like The griptps are too busy. What are they going to do is take an hour, two hour break and read the script? Like they're busy. And so This experience was like performing theater for the crew. We would rehearse each scene and they would be so excited to see what happened because they would be hanging on the last scene. They would like, oh my god, what is she gonna to say? We had an audience. And they would they would gasp and like clap at the end of our rehearsals. It made me so emotional because I felt Wow, this connection between the crew and the cast was deeper than I've ever felt because they were really invested in the story we were telling And, you know, people obbviously struggling not to laugh because these characters were so silly and fun. But also in the end, like there was a lot of emotion. There were a lot of tears And I u I was so moved by that It was one of the many reasons this experience was so singular. And I always sit through the credits because I want to appreciate sometimes I saw this something online the other day. It's like when you don't realize how many people it takes to make these films. And when you sit there and obviously you have a great song playing throughout your credits as well, the credits are part of the movie. Yes. for our credits, I beg of you because First of all, It's not that long as we were a small crew two and a half minutes Also you need a you need a chance to decompress That' a part of the movie. Yes. I really think You know, obviously, Marvel has kind of introduced people to the credit like post credits, which I actually love because then they sit for the credits, which they should. And. Our song in our credits is the demo version of Our House. It's Graham Nash and Jonnie Mitchell sitting at a piano, singing together. It is veryer much a part of our film. Once you see it, you'll understand why. it inspired that song is a song that's been a very special song to me for a long time. and that demo is a version of it that has meant a lot to me for a long time. When did you discover that demo? About let's see about F no, five years ago. And then bringing it here full circle. what does this all mean to you now that it did five years ago I mean, for me That song represents A love story that was so profound that didn't end up lasting Graham and Jonn were madly in love, they didn't end up together. But they made magic together. And that's what the song represents to me in so many different ways. And I also fucking love demos. Oh, I love the laughing and the messing up. That was like my favorite part about it. Shit. I was like, well, this is really cool. I had never heard that demo. Well, okay, because they've never licensed it before. Oh. And so I put it on there. I think as a filmmaker, you kind of sometimes have a Hil Mary where you throw something on a song and you think like we're never gonna like a temp. Yeah. and they say don't fall in love with the temp that's a bad idea But I felt so strongly that we needed to have it And I am very lucky because it was the team at Anaperna that really pushed that through because they knew how passionate I was about it. You know, they made booksmart. They're very familiar with my attachment to music And Telsea Barnard at Anaperna really knew that if I was this dead set on our house and the demo version of our house, never having been licensed, she's like, we have to work really hard to make this happen. And it needed to be approved by all the parties at the label. and I'm very, very grateful. I think it completely changes the experience of the film There's also Jonie's laugh at the end, it iss the most beautiful sound you've ever heard. Honestly, it was part of the film. Yeah. And I'm so happy you got it licensed because it was so profound. And like you said, it does have a very interesting connection to the story. Yeah. we won't give that away. But I want to talk about your frame composition. Oh yees. I was nerding out a lot because I was one of the things that I loveved about film was when I'm so immersed in it, I'm studying the frame I remember like Tarantino when he did hate fate with Rbert Richardon,' shooting on the sixty five mant like the Panavision seventy or whatever it was. It's a small space, but you're looking around the room to figure out, is Tim Rooth doing something here? Michael Madson's doing something here. And I did that with your film because there's a shot early on and I won't give anything away where you are on the bottom middle of the frame. Y and Seth walks into the frame on the right, I believe But you're using space in a really interesting way. You also center punch Your character and Seth's character in a couple of different scenes as well, which feels very intentional. Yeah. Like you guys are up against like a wall at one point where like you're perfectly centered.. Can you speak about the narrative decisions on that Absolutely. so I think when You have this challenge of a single limited environment. And you know you're going to have actors improvising and really workshopping material together in this well environment and when it is based on a play. and so it's really very focused on performance relationships, the texture of those performances Sometimes the The first thing that goes out the window is this idea of cinematic u specificity of style and structure of the kind of And of the cinematic becausecause one might think, you know, it's not really about that. Let's just like throw on a camera and do it handheld and just kind of follow them. And that's obviously been done before. I mean, think of like husbands and wives, one of the greatest films of all time. and that steadic cam work and the handheld work is fallawlist. Grey Fraser was doing on Project Hill Marary. Exactly. He was just floating around with and finding it And there's a time for thatertain a lot of really great steady work in this in this film that you'll see as well But Adam and I really loved the idea of creating a very u intentional framework within which actors could kind of behave and be. And we really understood that the house itself was a character and at times you were the house itself watching these people and there was this kind of voyeuristic approach and at other times you were very in a very visceral sense emotionally connected to one character or the other Um We really enjoyed kind of designing that journey for the audience. and that's something very much inspired by Mike Nichols, specifically, who's afraid of Virginia Wolf a film also based on a play, of course, also mostly in one environment. That cinematography, what Haskell Wexler did on that film was create something that is so visceral at times you feel like you are getting drunk with the characters. You're literally spinning in circles. you are experiencing this house in a way that never lets it get redundant or boring or it never lets it kind of U fall away as a significant part of the storytelling We wanted you to feel that the space itself was containing you in a way that was affecting your experience of that moment. It was a joy to think about how we could use the production design of Jay Healy who had designed the set built it on stage, but very specifically so that it gave certain vantage points. So there was a lot of, know, frames within frames, mirrors mirrors. Yeah. like when they're making the bed, right? Isn't there like a mirror shot of Seth? reflections are interesting. Exactly. And we really liked the mirrors too because it was a way to put people in the same frame but so disconnected. So Joe and Angela at the beginning of the film have lived together, been together about twenty years. They've lived together for so long, but they've truly lost sight of each other So it's like sharing space while being in different worlds. and mirrors are, of course, a great way to kind of get to that very quickly. But that takes an extraordinary amount of skill on everybody's part. I still can't believe we never caught sight of any crew member in any of theseirrors. There's mirrors all over the house. Wow. You never had to digitally eras? No.,ot once. I was ready. That's insane. I was like we're gonna see somebody, but not one. Lve the shot you pointed out where I'm towards the bottom of the frame and there's a lot of headroom and you're seeing I'm in a corner and you're seeing in two different directions We're so excited about that shot.reat shot. f shot in movie I don't know I don't know what it was, but it just hit me in a I was like really looking around the frame ' Seth enters that shot, right? Like yeah, it's a really great shot. I love it so much. and you know, we also studied among other single environment films, but twelve Angry Men. And what Cidney Lumette did in that film was change your perspective of scale by moving the camera slowly. they start it starts with the camera high and kind of wide up high and then slowly reverses. So you have this sense of increasing claustrophobia And we thought a lot about that in this film and you kind of see a similar journey happening. We go from being kind of small in the bottom of this range to being kind of much made much more significant. Certainly Pina and Hawk are held in higher regard. so we really look up at them a lot You know, the ceiling had to be such a character because of that. Every corner was going to be seen. There was nothing incidental on this set everythingthing was considered and that an extraordinary collaboration of a crew that understood that The assignment like really to a te. I'm so happy you' bght up sitting L Matte. Making movies is one of the greatest books. Essential reading. That story you're telling about twelve hundredgry men. I think it starts above eye level or something and it the lenses shift, and it's like you don't even notice it, but you feel it? Y. It's one of the greatest like pieces of film trivia that've ever heard because it's like it was basically the language of the camera was speaking to me subconsciously. Yes. But you don't know he's changing the lenses Exactly. It's so interesting. It's masterful because as you're saying, it's not on It's not it doesn't ask for any attention. It's not kind of u imposing the filmmaker into your experience so that you're like, o, wow, I see, I see what you've done here. Thank you. It just happens to you and you're like, why did I feel that way? Why didn't I get bored while being in one space. Why do I suddenly feel like I understand these characters in a different way? And it should be a subconscious effect. Yeah Which isn't to say that I don't personally love a bit of flashy fun sometimes. Sometimes I'm like, oh yeah, this shot. Give me a good wonder. Like in children of men, I want to watch that oneonder thato's doing in the car. like that my God the blood on the lens So good. That scene, you know the ping pong balls when they're in the car, the ping pong ball is digital. Which I didn't know. I was like I think Julian Moore and is Julianne Moore in Chuitau? Yes. There's spitting the it's a digital ball from what I under That shot is insane by the way. the way that Chivo pulled that up. I know. Aspect ratio, your first two were two, three nine, two, four , your one hundred eighty five here. Y is the one hundred eighty five due to the Exactly. I really wanted you to feel the ceiling. I wanted to feel more of the space in that way. I think it was it was very much about trying to allow for the claustrophobia. And it just really I knew that it would change the experience of it. And the space is not that big. So we weren't going to gain anything from necessarily like seeing more of what's around us on our sides. It was really about feeling the height. It's your spherical on this? or is it spherical? Wow. I mean it's just incredible to watch. L like every single shot, the intention of it is felt. It's not just to look cool. It's like very fascinating. Eespecially when they leave the rooms, the sound design, the sound design is incredible. So Steve Morow is our ons setad sound mixer. I've work with him now twice. He is such a gangster because you might have noticed that we talk over each other the entire film and many sound mixers will say can you guys please take turns speaking so that you don't overlap each other because then we have to re record. Absolutely not. Steve is the first person to say in a very kind of Robert Altman way, everybody can speak naturally. and I think With a cast, this Good I knew that I could allow for a kind of a freedom of improvisation that wouldn't ever muddy someone else's choice. For instance, sometimes if you aren't really working with enough, I think, intentional preparation and you tell people like Go to town, just chat end up occasionally with someone improvising something on top of someone else's line and one of them's working and the other one's kind of on a different topic or a different level and you're like, ooh, what do I do? because I can't actually separate these tracks. But The combination of Steve's work and mixing live, mixing those tracks and with the skill of these actors who knew exactly when to interject, exactly how to kind of play as like a jazz quartet. It felt like music. Yeah. No there's a great scene when Seth's looking for something in the drawers, right? I will' give it away. but like it's kind of been one of the clips that's out there, but you guys are speaking over each other and like but it it's a brilliant It's almost like music It feels like you're I felt like I was listening and I was like choosing who I was listening to. It's almost like you become a collaborator as an audience member with that moment. So great. Yeah I love that. Well, Seth and I We do have something that I'm very grateful for. It feels very special. I've never had it with any other scene partner. It feels like we can harmonize. Yes. and it is such a good great experience and I'm so happy that he feels the same way because he's one of the best to ever do it. And to, you know, I wasn't supposed to act in the film and then they asked me to jump in and play that role, they being the cast, which was very moving because I am such an admirer of all of theirs as an actress. The idea of acting with them was like profound. I couldn't imagine standing across from Edward Norton and doing a scene. I mean, that really blew my mind But when I did jump in and do it, I was so happy because I got to participate in that music with them and it was like, Oh, it was it was magic. Let's speak about music and forgive me if this is like I'm projecting at all. Your score is brilliant. Davante. Yes. Dev Hines. Dev Hines who's an amazing I was looking through his credits. he's ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah. but it had a Bernard Herman feel to. Oh, I think he would love that. I think that's great. Oly because you Your tension and release is so interesting And you build tension with music and dialogue. Sometimes the music is what's telling us that the intensity is going and sometimes it's dialogue. Can you speak about music as a character, but also there is the comedy is, of course there, but it also is extremely intense. Yes. Well, I love that. I love the juxtaposition of like high emotional stakes and drama with domestic lower stakes and specifically like comedy. because I think the funniest thing to me always is people feeling things very intensely.. Like I think there's nothing funnier than someone like caring a lot about something kind of ridiculous. I was very inspired by Ruben Oslland's score in Force Mjure Bringing in that Vivaldi in such kind of intentional like very bold moments. and I loved the idea that The music would serve as a kind of Greek chorus for this story and would quite literally represent our nervous system. The cello, so it's all on a cello. And even the percusion percussion you hear, it's all on the cello. anythingthing else. Yeahah. very. Sometimes we layer the cello, but it's all one cello and We wanted you to feel like the strings of the cello are kind of our nerves themselves and you' really riding our nerves and you sometimes I think can understand the kind of silent communication between two characters because of what the music does. and sometimes it's a little bit more subtle and it's just sort of like coasting underneath you. but Dev really he has such u He he has such appreciation for like film as a medium. He's a real film geek. He's the best. When he first read the script, he was like, it's like Bergan. I'm like I don't know if it's like Berman but I love that. like let's aim for Bergman. L we were really inspired, of course by scenes from a marriage. and And it was so fun to receive these tracks from him that were Incredibly intense and beautiful. It could have been an opera. At one point, I was like, shouldould we make it an opera? And we still have a dream for that. Bringing in voices? Yeah, we were like, should this be something? We did think about voices at a certain point, but then we I'm happy we it works great with the cello It was Not the kind of choice. I say this for any filmmakers out there that it wasn't a choice that was obvious to all parties immediately. It was the kind of thing that I think Dev and I really could hear the same thing in our imaginations and we knew this would work. I think for a comedy People immediately think of like something a little more They want, you know, even the idea of like, let's just bring in a jazz score that feels a little bit more energetic and propels you through it. but That wouldn't have added another character. And the music was an opportunity to add this other character who was kind of the truth teller in the room to say like, oh, no, you're smiling, but you're dying inside. Yeah. And it was how it felt. Also, I will say we had this incredible music editor, Tim Marie Duplot, who's a young woman and she she the way she would weave Dev score into scenes within the dialogue, that's really hard to do. The music almost became part of the world. Yes in a way that almost like it was with the characters. Yes. Like not just what is it diegetic versus what's that terminology for? Like in the movie or nots like it's like close encounters. Like some of that music's in the film and some of it's out. Yeah. Well I love playing with that too. I mean, Tarantino does it a lot too It's not Source, it's not score's like Source. And I love that. I love also being really playful with music. L we do a lot of things in this film where, you know, it's like I turn off a light switch and it turns off the music as well or Seth will raise his hand and it will kind of stop the music as though the conductor ye, he's the conductor of that moment. And I love being playful. I love acknowledging to the audience that there is storyteller present and There's a moment that isn't score, but it's one of my favorite moments in the film where It's one of our only needle drops and it's a shadeay song that's playing. and the audience first thinks it's score. and then the way they realize it's actually sourced in the room is because Penelope starts singing it. And it's such a wonderful moment in every screening where people are like, Oh oh my God. That's happening in that room and they are singing to each other. They're hearing it. Yeah. I mean all the editing, all the shot choices were incredible I find filmmaking as an audience member. I love living in the worlds of movies. even if like a film is darker. I like sitting in the filmmaking and the music of it. just I find Catharsis as an audience member watching films. I have to imagine you find it as a storyteller. Oh yeah. when you view like the films you've directed so far, obviously, I know you've directed music videos as well The three films you've directed Book Smart, Omory, Darling and this Did you find a different catharsis in each one in terms of how it helped you in your own life make telling the stories Completely. and I think that you have to be Wrestling with something inside of you to sustain the focus it will require to complete a film as a director. I think you have to be so fascinated with the question you're asking in some way, either it's a personal obsession I really think it always has to be a personal obsession because you are the one who will be dealing with this for a long period of time. It's a few years where it has to be the most interesting thing to you to continue asking a question through the film. It has to be It can't be a statement. I think it has to be a question for it to be interesting. And I think what I've learned is that the riskier that question, the more interesting the results. So meaning risky for you personally, if you are actually unsure of something And you are using the story to figure it out. And you can feel that. I think that's palmable. I think that It allows for a kind of catharsis is noticeable to an audience that feels like they're on that journey with you and they understand the The risk involved. They should feel a little bit of like the blood on the tracks, you know. And it's interesting, like throughout the film I won't give anything away, but like your character like wants to feel seen. Yeah. And I think that's an interesting thing because growing up for me, I didn't feel necessarily seen by like my teachers because I was always just kind of like asking a lot of questions and I got bullied a lot and things like that. But I was curious as an artist, do you remember the first time you felt seen as the artist you are. It's so interesting. Well, I mean I know that being on stage, doing theater was very was remarkable to me as a young woman because I understood I could have an effect by telling a story well, I could make people I mean, my first memory of it is like making people laugh was my favorite feeling. And I think it's because as a kid, that was kind of my role in the household. and my favorite memories are of my family all laughing together watching great movies and telling great stories. My family are all journalists, so there's storytellers everywhere. and I think it just that power to tell a good story and make people feel something is like very central to my to my kind of core identity. And so Being on stage certainly I think making films It feels so much more intimate because you are Telling people where to look and what to feel I think the the moment you realize that they connected with that is like nothing else. I mean Booksmart was probably the first real time I felt scene because as an actress It never felt like it was my doing. If I was in something good, a part I was really proud of, it felt like I was you know serving something much muchuch bigger than myself and it was I was a kind of like, session musician in the back, you know, like it was never a feeling of like, I have told you a story. And I think the only time that might be an outlier to that is Joe Wahenberg's film, Drinking Buddies. It's of my favores of years. Yeah. So for me, that was the first time that I was taken seriously by a director to really be a storyteller along with them. So we improviseed that film entirely. and so I was given agency to be a storyteller in a way that I hadn't before. And that was the first time I was like, Wait, I want to write and direct movies Um Bookmart, I think because of the connection the audience made to it, that kind of alchemy, that chemical reaction of film plus audience, and people feeling seen and they still come up to me. had young guy last night who came up to me at a screening and he was like, I just have to tell you booksmart is really important to me. I went home and actually told my daughter, she's nine, but I told her because she wants to be a director. It's so cool. Oh, that's awesome. And I told her I was like, the best feeling is that it's the unexpected audience member who's like, that movie meant a lot to me. I think that's really That's really as good as it can get that somebody feels altered by it in a positive way and that they can return to it. I think that with the invite, what's so interesting is that It it was the most in many ways, the most personal film, even though I didn't write it. I I just I read it and felt seen by reading it. and then we workshopped it together and it became more and more personal feel that because I'm also in it and directing and I'm really kind of putting myself out there and the risk is palpable. I feel so affected by the audiences who have come up to me and said they saw themselves in it and they feel less alone. It sounds very cheesy, but it's the best feeling in the world Fing recognized by a movie is a wonderful feeling. when you watch it and you think, I thought I was the only one. and neither that's a relief because You know, you can laugh at your own struggles, which is the best possible medicine orr you can feel that your pain is not something that is specific to you. It is something that maybe is survivable because someone else went through it And we're live on match dayay as Doug reaches for a buffalo wing. He's got it. Oh and he's gone for a can of Pepsi too. What a finish There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Match days deserve Pepsy. Rversing that, what's a movie that did that for you where you wish you could walk up to the filmmaker or you have walked up to the filmaker and said, thank you for making me feel seen through your film I mean, our film is dedicated to Diane Keaton. Yes, that was one of the things I wanted to bring up, which one what a greatest one of the greatest of all time. All time. Did you know that she's the reason why Kaminsky shot Chchindler's list? No. I think what I think Kaminsky shot one of Diane's directed films and Spielberg saw it, called her up and that's how Kaminsky ended up on I mean, it wasn't the fact that he was Polish, which was interesting because they werere shooting in Poland. But she had a connection. ye. I mean, that's because Diane was so much more than an actress. I mean, a true artist, a true Recognizer of beautiful things whether that was tiny. a tiny object I anything. she saw value in things other people didn't recognize. And that went for objects and stories and people. And she meant a lot to me growing up watching her films. I mean seeeeing Annie Hall for me was a moment of thinking that pinnacle of femininity was not being a kind of idealized ingenu, this kind of perfect idea of a powerful woman who, you know, has her shit together and is like flawless in every way. It was suddenly like It was suddenly recognizing that vulnerability And and Aicity and flaws. Epathy. Epathy that it was that it was It was so interesting. the same thing I felt when I started reading, you know, like Nor Ephron or Even, you know, Krie Fisher, I remember the first time I read Carrie Fisher, her memoir Wishful drinking And she has this great line where she says My life better be funny or else it's just true and that's unacceptable. God, she's amazing. She's amazing. And I just think like For so long, women in film had to either be a You were either a villain or you were a Perfect Angel preacure You it was true kind of classic, you know, Christianity kind of interpretation of women. it was Madonna or hor And I think Dian Keaton is someomeone who represented a much more human depiction of women and she was just so funny. and So I got to work with her once. I got to play her daughter in a film called Love the Coopers, which was of a film that was one of those experiences that kind of You can't believe you're having because you're surrounded by all these people you admire. I mean, John Goodman played my dad, Alan Arkin played my grandpa. Like just Tibon Burnnett was doing the score and we would sit around and they would play Ukulele and banjo and hang out and I just have these extraordinary memories, but mostly talking to Diane about film about