Navigating Forgiveness and Healing

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Sometimes that person who goes no contact is the first person who says enough is enough Is forgiveness always healthy? No No I have seen people heal brilliantly without forgiving. When do you know it's time to cut off a toxic family member? I don't know that there's a moment of knowing, but every single person will say, Grief, grief, grie, grief, grief, regret, shame, guilt And then peace. Hey everyone, Wlcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is one of your favorites, someone that you always want back. someomeone that always gets millions and millions of downloads and views whenever she's on the show, it's my friend and incredible thought leader. Ramani Durvasila. clinical psychologist and one of the most trusted voices in the world on narcissistic relationships whose work has reached millions of people searching for clarity and validation Right now, more people than ever are asking a painful question. Should I go no contact with my family Nearly one in four adults report being estranged from a family member What used to be unthinkable is now a global conversation and often a deeply lonely one But how do you know when distance is healthy And when it's something you regret. If you've ever felt guilt, grief, or confusion about stepping back from someone you love This conversation will change how you think about it Please welcome to onn Purpose Dror Raramy. Thank you, J. Always always wonderful to have you. It's lovely to see you. I learned so much from you. You make everything clear. Thank you. I leave these conversations feeling. I have so much to share with people. You joined me on tour last year, which I was sonderful. Gateful for But really this conversation has truly taken over. culture in such an interesting way It has. And I wanted to just start off as I always do with you because I think you do this so brilliantly. Can you please define what no contact means? It's just what it sounds like. It's no more contact It's no more digital contact. It's no more in person contact. You're not taking that person's calls, you're not showing up to where they are. It's almost like the death of a relationship even while the people are living. That's an interesting way of thinking about it because I think no contact It feels like, okay, I'm not going to call them, I'm not going to talk. But when you think about what you just said, that That carries so much more weight than that definition. I read In the national survey from Cornell University's Family Estrangement and Reconciliation Project, they found that twenty seven percent of US adults reported being estranged from one or more family members twenty seven percent. That's huge. So cutting off family used to be unthinkable. Yeah. now it feels like it's everywhere What changed? Like we're talking about a third of Americans. I think what's challenging is is that this concept of no contact is really It's heterogeneous. It's not just one thing, right? And because it's not one thing, that twenty seven percent number, It's made up of a really kind of mixed up pot of people. First of all, I would say that you're absolutely right, Jay. There was a time this would never happen. And I think there are a lot of cultures in parts of the world where it's still unthinkable. You cannot do this. Listen, more people are talking about things that were once sort of deemed shameful, the sort of cultural and societal control of you can't do this. and people are saying Yes, I can. I think there's more information. There's more content, conversations like this said I really have to say this remains a huge shaming issue out there that when we hear someone is estrange from a family member, most people's mind will go to what's wrong with you. what's wrong with you, what's wrong with your family? It's immediately a very pathologized kind of a take on it. The problem is that no contact happens for such different reasons. In some cases, no contact is happening literally because a person says, there's no safety here. I'm fully abandoning myself to remain in relationship with this person or even feeling like there's potential harm, evenven if it's not literal harm, it's not that somebody's going to come and hit you this psychological sense of vigilance or that here we go again. And for a classical example I'll give you, somebody was abused as a child, physically, sexually abused. and the family system minimizes it, perhaps even denies it, whichich means as a child, that person wasn't protected And now as an adult But their attitude is you're still trying to wipe out a part of my history that I'm trying to integrate so I can heal. So that's a point at which some people, a dear friend of mine, Kimberly Shannon Murphy has been very outspoken about this about her own story of family abuse. And she said, no more, I realize I hit that wall in order for me to heal the rest of the way had to end contact with people whose presence was harming me. That's one piece. Now Jay, there's a group of people that go no contact becausecause it's punitive. I'll show you You're never going to hear me from me again. So let's say I don't we're slings, right? and you won't loan me money or do something I want you to do and say J, you're dead to me, right? Because I'm going to punish you because you wouldn't do the thing I want. That's different. That's different, but that's going to be represented in those numbers. Right. You see what I'm saying. So there's this heterogeneity and I can say as a psychologist who's worked with many clients who not only either have gone no contact, but I work with them as they grappled with this issue Nobody makes this decision lightly. Those punishment people do. They're like, forget it, you won't do what I want, no conduct, right? But for the people who are doing it for reasons of safety, protection, healing, so that they no longer have to abandon themselves, they will work this through for years and years and years, feeling guilty, feeling disloyal, feeling like bad people, wondering what's wrong with them And that will churn and churn. Oftentimes there's a moment. I'm not going to bring too many details with it because I'm trying to protect some of the people involved, but I'm recently actually now actively kind of going through a no contact family situation And it is something that had played out for such a long time in a family system, right? And it's like the child part of me is like, something's not right. And then the adult part of me is like,, I could turn away. It wasn't a person I had contact with. Then I was having more. I'm like, wait a minute. I know more about this. It doesn't feel cool. Th the terrible thing happened. I was like, no This would be a cancellation of myself in the name of culturally trying to maintain a relationship, right? So that evolution, I'm telling you for me That was a forty year process. This is this is not a decision that's made lightly. and I think what we're doing, the injustice we're doing here is assuming that someone who's gotone no contact has made this decision capriciously or frivolously. A lot of the people you speak to Are they going no contact as first immediate action or is it a last resort They were like, I've tried everything. do you understand? And then there's more of the denial, more of the gaslighting, more of the manipulation, more of the disrespect, call it what you will There's this moment And it's not just in the no contact, but I think no contxt's a manifestation When you become cutely ively consonsciously aware that you are actually slicing off massive parts of your authentic self. to maintain a relationship. And on top of that become per vigilant, watching every inence, it is just a full self abandonment. You become aware of that You're now choosing between self loathing or self protection And the problem is, you know, the words of the great Gabor Mateates like there's no Pain free path, folks. there isn't one because if you choose this point, this path of I am not going to have anything to do with this person anymore. It doesn't feel safe, it doesn't feel healthy F members, people from the world at large, people in your community are going to say, oh, come now. there must be a way to. They're your family. You only have one family, you only have one, whatever, fill in the blank, parent, aunt, uncle, cousin, whatever it is, right sister, that's the pushback that comes. So you could imagine the amount of resistance, people who are engaging in no contact protectively are going through for them to still make that decision with a sense of belonging, which is a primary human need It's not that punitive. you're not doing what I want I'm going to cut you off. That again, that's much more punitive, petulant, tantrumy. It's entirely different experience. They're not the same. It's so hard because As you were mentioning there that no path feels great and it's hard either way because you either stay connected to this person causes you pain, causes you hurt, causes you stress. and then you're dealing with all of that, or you disconnect from them and go no contact, but then you feel guilt and then you feel shame from the outside world and you feel bad L I mean, this is not even no contact. I have a friend who's moving country And they were telling their friends and the first thing their friends said to them is, what about your parents? And they're not even no contact. They love their parents. They're going to see their parents. They enjoy spending time with their parents. just moving country for work. And even me, I live away from my parents for work and for the life I'm building And people are always like, yeah, what about that? And I'm like, I can't imagine if someone actually said Aually I'm not talking to my parents anymore How much shame and guilt that con will. I guess what we're saying is when someone goes no contact for the right reasons, you've got to recognize just how deep that must have been for them. It's very deep. And I think that the challenge has become Jay, especially at the end of twenty twenty five, maybe someone had put a book out. I don't even know what. but there was a lot of conversation in the public sphere about no contact. But a lot of it was about, this is terrible. All estrangement can be worked through Because what this becomes a conversation about J is becomes a conversation about a bigger issue called repair W the repair of a rupture in a relationship And it's not always easy to repair a rupture, but it's the only way forward. Ruptures cannot be repaired The relationship slowly dies That's what happens. It becomes untenably unsafe, right So the person who ultimately goes no contact in these unsafe situations has likely tried to repair several times. They'll even say, canan you see what you did to hurt me? Can you see They're literally putting out a PPoint. I'm giving you the roadmap here for this apology And the other person either doesn't get it gives anaemic apology Or will give the weak apology and turn around and do the thing again Right? It's the doing the thing again that is so horrifying. becausecause if someone says, sorry and then does it again, that's not safe. You've just shown me, you can do a thing that's harmful or unsafe And no matter what, you're going to likely do it again So that becomes the core of what this is or the denial of another human being's experience Families might feel uncomfortable because something uncomfortable happened, for example, abuse in the system And nobody wants to sit around and talk about that But usually the survivor of these experiences simply wants to hear That happened. We're so sorry and maybe even acknowledge and we didn't protect you sufficiently Right? That's oftentimes all a person can't we know we can't turn back time. We can't go back and fix it the acknowledgement of our pain, bearing witness to someone's pain. That is what people want. and there's a chance of moving forward. But what I really, really am struggling with is the rhetoric, which is that we put the light of shame and blame person who's making the decision to say, this is not safe, this is not healthy. This is taking a toll on me. I'm stepping back. inststead fooccusing on the person or people whose behavior was the catalyst for this choice. Once again, we are putting the focus on the person who was harmed as being the problem. What are the most common reasons you see people that you work with and that you've come across through research that go no contact. I think the most common ones are like I said, denial of childhood experiences of abuse denial that can lead to a second reason, which is now people are sometimes saying I'm actually concerned for my kids.obody's even willing to step up and acknowledge this happened and they're expecting my children to be in the presence of an unsafe person. So those can often be a catalyst. Another piece is repeated attempts at repair You know, you keep trying to say, please don't do it again, they do it again. Please don't say that again. They say it again. They'll even say, I'm sorry, and then they'll do it again. So there's no way to get it fixed. Sometimes it's what I call sort of the scorched Eth piece The thing that's done cannot be undone. Now it could be something as like they're intoxicated and they put your kids in the car with them and they drive. They leave the kids unsupervised in a dangerous situation It's usually a case of irresponsibility or something that ended up putting people at risk or harm or actually something terrible happens. That can be a catalyst for no contact Maybe it's not the kinds of physical sexual abuse, but it's even like a lifetime criticism, devaluing, you know the year over year, it's going to be the same comments about your weight, about your career. It's just it's a never ending negating abusive, harmful cycle. That can be a case. Now we're living in interesting times where there's a tremendous amount of political polarization. And there are people who were saying what you voted for has hurt the people I love most dearly in life It's actually leading to some no contact as well And it can be sometimes multiple of those in some cases can be very, very unique to the situation, I always say it's like a slice in the fabric of trust that slices the fabric of safety. You know, bothoth of those things are happening. And we don't always think of it as feeling unsafe because we're often not in an acute danger. But when people go through this, they'll say I feel sick when I have to see this person. I feel sick after I talk to this person. I feel anxious. I mean literally sick, people say I get rashes, their autoimmune symptomatology may flare up. They get gastrointestinal issues, terrible headaches, like my body falls apart at this contact. So there's sometimes even that awareness And then it was interesting. I just was talking to a woman on her own network and she was talking about going no contact with her own mother. What happened was she felt a relief like she had never felt in her life. She said, I don't have to go through this again You know, that and she and she said was not easy. It was a nightmare to make the choice and then a lifting of this horrible weight. So not everyone feels relief. A lot of people say feel the guilt and the shame, but those are the kinds of catalysts to why people make this choice. it's usually not one thing. It's many, many, many, many, many things that can culminate in that one big bad thing. So you can point to an event promise you, everyone who says I went no contact after X happened. might tell me everything that happened before X was never just about x. That was the proverbial straw According to psychology, how do we know if someone has the ability to change Human beings are fallible creatures. We make mistakes. We make mistakes in relationships all the time in marriages, in friendships, with siblings, with parents It's never the mistake. It's always the repair, right? The ability to be vulnerable to have the conversation. If you look at Estairire Perrell's work, Estairire's work is interesting. Whenever I have conversations with her, I'm always talking about narcissistic cheaters and Estair's talking about the larger world of infidelity. But Estire has so many examples of people who even after a huge breach of trust, like infidelity can repair the relationship when there's authentic accountability. and I do really believe that repair there's a real anatomy of how we repair, that there's The person who did the harmful thing takes accountability. bonus points if it's spontaneous accountability, but takes accountability recognizes it, bears witness, bears witness to the pain of the other. offers an apology, not based on how they're inconvenienced about it, but I am so sorry. I can see this hurt you. You're suffering, and I'm so sorry I was a part of that Then the ringer of ringers is they change their behavior And then that's when we say, I am so sorry. let me like let me collect myself because this wasn't okay. Now, they can't keep doing that. They can't keep slipping and saying sorry, slipping and saying sorry, but some time may go by And then they'll make the mistake Again, accountability. And that's the back and forth dance. That's how you know. It's ye, all the things I just said, accountability Apology, bearing witness, but above all, behavior change That's it. That's how you know someone can do it. And I'm sure you've been in relationships where there's been repair. I've been in relationships when repair there's repair. And what's amazing is when there's repair, the relationship gets stronger. It actually goes to a much deeper place because now you've shown that even when something scary happens You're protected because someone's saying, I didn't do right and I will try to do right. Every harmed person out there would have loved to have heard that That's how we know It's the actual manifestation of the behavior. It's not because someone says they're going to. sadly it's time Totally agree. Let's say someone's listening right now. thinking I want to go no contact thinking about it, I've tried everything. I've tried therapy myself I tried to encourage the other person to go to therapy. they went up for it They tried to raise what they were accountable for. They maybe took accountability, but they didn't really change their behaviour They continue to act the same way. I've never felt like they've really understood or acknowledged what they've done. So they're feeling all of that. But then at the same time they go I can never go no contact. It's my mom or my dad that like did so much for me. I know they weren't perfect, but we start to justify and fill in the gaps and we start to make excuses sometimes or we start to maybe even have very valid points But there's still a part of us that goes don't want to see them because Kant If someone's in that position, how would you encourage them to think about and reflect on that There's different ways to think about this, even in the narcissism world And I talk about sort of disengagement strategies. we talk about yellow rock and gray rock and low contact and all of that It's for a person to really assess that they're even thinking. I want to go no contact. What I want to know more than anything is What's your why It driving as some people say, I get sick every time I see them. I get hurt every time I see them. I literally don't feel safe in my body when I'm with them. I'm not even myself. It's an out of body experience. I'm concerned for my kids when I'm with them. Pay attention to your why If your why is I want them to feel as bad as I have That is going to often be a less healthy reason and it can leave the person who's gone no contact more likely to experience regret But I would say to folks, this is number one rule of no contact, I personally think, never tell the other person you're going no contact. because it becomes a lot of clanging bells and it feels like a a tactic at that point. In many cases, no contact is a gradual stepping back anyhow. It's pretty rare for a person to see someone every single day until Friday, and then on Saturday go no contact with them, right? It tends to be successive approximations. and what might be is that you're spending less time with them. And there may be a sweet spot that you say I am not voluntarily going to show up if it's something like, I'm not going to miss my cousin's wedding because they're going to be there. So some people will kind of try to clear out that kind of territory Some people will do the form of low contact where they say, if I see them, it's going to be polite conversation. I'm not going to tell them what's going on in my life. I'm not going to engage them in any significant way. I'm not going to sleep in their home. I'm not going to have a meal with them. So some of it may actually look like that But I would tell people experiment with different strategies. S what can work for you. because the cultural piece is huge, Jay. A lot of people will say This is just not what we do in my culture. And it not this is no longer just about no contact with me and a member of my family, whomeever it may be, parents, sibling, whomever It is I am now kind of wobbling this whole family system. and I'm very fond of people because some people will say, I go no contact with person A I don't get to see person B who' actually really Beloved toy So now you're of a sudden finding yourself in these triangulations. So I'll tell people, figure out the success of approximations and what helps you feel safer. because sometimes through agency a person will say, I know I'm going to my cousin's wedding to see my cousin get married, but I may very well leave before the dinner because I think that's when things are gonna to kind of get hot. And I'm going to let my cousin know, you mean so much to me. I wantan to see your wedding. I want to see that moment you're getting married, but I think that the dinner may be too much. I think we can communicate to other stakeholders also remind people no contact may not always be forever This is a big one for people because I view no contact as a time of healing. is a time when this person who leaves you feeling unsafe in your body and self abandoning and all of that, you've removed that stimulus for a while. you can do a lot of the hard work of healing. Really get back in your body, really explore your sense of self, your authentic self, connect in other healthy relationships. Armed with that When circumstances line up that you may have to be in contact with that person again, you're in a much different position to do so, much more from a place of agency. I'm not going to stay all evening. I'm not going to get into those topics. If they start poking, I'm going to give myself permission to leave. then probably not feel as triggered too. So I think the decision really comes from what is driving you And things can always be rolled back if they don't feel right and nobody needs to know about it Summer iss a gift It's a gift of days that last a little longer, a brighter state of mind So givet yourself a new Kia at the KIA Summer Sticker sales event, spepecially taged vehicles including the Sornto, Sportage, Carnival, as well as the Nuro Hybrid. All backed by a ten year one hundred thousand mile limited powertrain warranty. So the gift of summer can keep on giving for summers to come. Kia Movement that inspires Call eight hundred three three threety four K for details host J safy event and seven hundred six twenty six to deealer for warranty details Hey, it's Ran Renold here from Mit Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for fifteen dollars a month is back So I thought it would be fun if we made fifteen dollars bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. 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I couldn't agree with you more I think sometimes we want to put in the big announcement and that almost feels like the Y isn't that strong And actually, you're right that the more natural way of doing it is I used to see them every week. now I see them every month and now I see them every quarter. and Now I don't see them maybe once a year, if that I think we also underestimate and I can speak about this from experience that I've found when I've been in this position, I didn't do this as a technique, but even though I did not speak to this one person for around two years When I then did talk to them again I found that the relationship was so much more respectful from their side because they realized there were real consequences to that behavior. And that's something I never realized before. I always felt being a loving, compassionate, empathetic person would be the thing to help them change when I realized that No contact. evenven I didn't use it as a technique to change them. I did it to protect myself changed their relationship with me because they now realized And initially when I stopped talking to them there their reaction was like Well, why did you stop talking to me? What's going on? And My response is because I don't want to be treated that way anymore. And they said, Well, what do you mean? Like, you know, we have these conversations. then tomorrow we forget about it, move on And I was like Oh, okay, that's how you think the rules go. And I was like, well, to me, I don't want tolerate that anymore. We didn't talk for two years and then all of a sudden Now when we connect, which isn't very often either, but now when we do, they know it can never get to that level because there's real consequences to that. And that doesn't always happen though, Jay. Sometimes people will go no contact for the protective, really healing reasons And if they are in the wake of the person again, the person will say dare you or I can't believe you abandoned me or do you not know how everything I did for you How can you be so ungrateful? In some ways I tell folks So, canan you believe this? And I said, Yes, and if anything, you just got a huge piece of data And it is a piece of data that confirms That decision, what you observed, what you experienced, what you saw here was absolutely accurate You know, so I mean, I think all of us doubt ourselves like, maybe I'm not seeing this right, Maybe I'm overblowing this. That's why in my book and it's not you. I write a call it going into the Tiger's cage. I'm like, go back in the Tiger's cage. how that works out for you. If it's not that big a deal, it's a little kitty cat pet it and have a great time. But if it's a tiger, it's gonna slash you up again. And so if it does, you're getting some good data there that you did see this right Anything that really makes you a greater steward of your own intuition and your own body and how you communicate within yourself, you saw this hundred reasons outside of you, it felt uncomfortable. Like I said, I'm sharing my own experience. Mercifull me, it's not my parents. I've found my way. I may have lost my mom as I've told you, and I've found my way, you know with my clunky way with my dad. So fine there. But in this other relationship, for a long time, I saw it and I saw it and I saw it. But when it came to the ultimate thing I thought I was right all ofong And then ironically, just in the last few days, I was speaking with another family member who then gave another piece of evidence and I was like That was really right. Then I'm walking around pumped up like, are I so intuitively smart? It wasn't at all ego. It was actually soothing. You read this right and it's okay to keep yourself safe, but it is so hard, Jay when the pressure of the world is family is great and estrangement is bad. And I shudder to think how much human potential we've lost who couldn't give themselves for a variety of reasons of permission to detach from a harmful relationship and just remain separated from themselves and silencing themselves because they felt that pressure to keep engaging with something that didn't feel safe That's the real tragedy of this. I agree with you, and I think though that it's those of us who Have that empathy and have that compassion and have that loving nature that find it the hardest to do. Yeah, of course. Be you think you're being ungrateful every time you engage with them, you always come back Wounded, right? That's right. So it's like you think you're being ungrateful. So you're like, I've got to be grateful with this family member, this parent, whatever it may be, so I'm going to stay connected. But then every time you're around them, you come back crying wounded, hurt, upset, whatever it may be. Physically ill. Yeah. And then you recover for a few days and you think, oh no, I was just overreacting. It was just a cat. And now go back to the tiger's cages you beautifully putour So many of us keep going back to that because it's in Tikna Han's words It's better to have familiar pain than unfamiliar pain And so we'd rather have that familiar experience and stay close to someone who's bad for us, then have the unfamiliar pain of, I don't know what life looks like if I don't talk to them How does someone figure that out and actually have the courage to say, no, I need to do what's right for me? This is where Gabor's words so ring for me is that there's no path free of pain. I think people do believe Jay one of these paths is more pain free or easyer. So they're both really, really difficult. And familiar pain is tough. We talk about stuff like the trauma bond and all of that That's familiar pain. We know how to navigate familiar pain, right? That's that's that we know we know where the hazards are. We know exactly what to look for it's terrible But we know how to navigate it. The unfamiliar pain, Well, that's terrifying. But what people don't always realize, the pain of not abandoning, not silencing, not suppressing yourself Okay? You would say that why would those things be painful? Because my gosh, your true self, that's some dangerous stuff. You have been told, How dare you? How dare you is very much a connective tissue in a toxic relationship Now though, what's happening is a person is living more in conuity with who they are, what they're about. They're connecting with healthier people. I mean, and there are some people out there who don't have healthy ties in their life, which is painful, very painful But I want you to contrast with the time with this person, you're thinking of going no contact with In contrast that to spending time with someone who is attuned and it's mutual and it's reciprocal and it's safe And people say they're categorically different experiences,? And why is that? Well Can you show up as your real sef? Of course, I can. I can be me, I don't feel judg, I don't feel shed, d, d, dah sometometimes just seeing that contrast Th then when people are talking about the obligations, the familiar pain, as it were Also understanding where those are, how they're acting really as tools of social control, but above all outside the point I make is these paths both hurt. Only one of them though, does carry the dividend that you will actually get to live as your authentic self which is going to It is going to improve your health just like that There's such a sense of Sometimes if you never experience safety You don't even know what it feels like And I think sometimes when you find a safe new relationship, whether it's a partner, a friend A roomommate, whatever it may be and then you all of a sudden go, o wait a minute, this is what safety feels like And now you have the realization that what you had before was unsafe And that's when you come to the decision that, oh, I need to go no contact because now I experience What a relationship should look like, and I didn't know that before. And what gets so challenging is unfortunately, like I said, people talk too much, right? The people will then go to the No contact person or system and said, I now saw this. This is what healthy feeles like. You know what they always hear Th people are just saying what you want to hear We're your family. We tell you the truth. You don't like to hear the truth, but we tell you that truth. They're not going to tell you that. That's nothing, nothing get into this divide of now the people who are harming them are saying, even that's not real. That's a gaslight There is this sense we're telling you the truth. The truth is painful. We're not going to trick you. We don't want you to go out into the world and look foolish. So for people to get themselves out of those places, the fact that they're even entertaining ending contact for some period of time, if not forever. To me, that's a quantum leap in healing because they're even entertaining the possibility that there's an option other than this abusive mess of this relationship is. You're never announcing your no contact. You're not telling the other person you're You're doing it yourself Naturally, you might find that person reaching out and that person might start saying things like whyy are you ignoring me? Why are you avoiding me? Why haven't you come over for a while And I feel like that's a weak point for someone How does that person hold their ground without gettingetting into explaining and getting lost. L what if you sound as being helpful. It's so challenging, Jay, because if the person really doesn't respond, right? The person's reaching and saying, Hey, why aren't you responding this and the other The person who has chosen to end contact will be accused of ghosting that person. And we view ghosting actually as avoidance. And I do want to put in this point about avoidance Something I'm hearing in sort of the pushback on people who make the choice to go no contact, people who are estrangeed from their families, it keeps getting framed as avoidance Is there a subset of cases where it is about avoidance?ure? Like I said, that twenty seven percent is a mucky number, if you will, right There are people are saying I don't want to have an uncomfortable conversation, so I'm just going to do this. But in many, many people are going no contact to feel safe They've attempted to have the uncomfortable conversation dozens and dozens of times. And remember, the people who are the harmers who are uncomfortable, unsafe, whatever they are They're likely not aware Right? orr they've come they've come up with a blame shifted, you know, this isn't my problem. It's your problem thing. They feel entitled to access to this person who's kind of drifting away. If they completely block contact, they will be called ghosting to which I said, Tht let them say you're ghosting. But I understand that's hard. People are saying, I don't want to be characterized like that because that's not who I am I wouldn't do this in another relationship where this is not happening, okay Whatever you say to that person, is not going to work. Some people will say Okay, I didn't want to announce it But I am going say to them like, this is not healthy for me. This is not safe for me. Personally, I have an example I'd gone through quite some time ago. and it was more in the friendship realm There was nothing that could be said without it escalating into something actually quite terrifying And it had to end, right? That person then went on to terrible things to many, many people I thought respected me and just said it' what we call sort of a smear campaign. So you had to tolerate that. So if you didn't communicate the way that person wanted and it always ended up in the same place you have to reconcile radical acceptance that if you attempt to say This has not felt safe. I don't feel like I don't feel like I can be myself. Oh, blah, blah, blah, psycho Babel, Is your therapist tell you this. See what I'm saying, you're gonna to come up against that wall. So you have to be girded against that. Maybe you have again Tiger's cage. mayaybe seeing that one more time.re like, this is why I went no contact and you'll push to that, I'm not I'm not I'm just simply not responding to this anymore. And I don't like when people say, I wish you well because we don't always wish people well We pay karmically for all of that hypocrisy. That'ing. You don't even say I wish you well. because I'm some of people I've gone on contact with don't wish them well. I don't wish them ill, but I don't wish them well So I tell people, donon't say I wish you well because you're putting something out there in the cosmos that just isn't vibing the right way. You might just say, listen, I can't do this anymore Now you have put a punctuation mark on. You're saying I'm exiting stage left. Like I'm out of the scene at this point I will bet you any amount of money, Jay Shetty, right now that person you got no contact with is going to paint a terrible picture of you to the world. These things, I almost view it as like alm like a hero's journey. All these bridges, fires you have to cross. L there's gonna to be a smear campaign. There's gonna to be the same old accusations. There's gonna to be at this. Yes, these are the terrible crumbling bridges you have to cross All of this was exactly what you were afraid of. No pain free path. This path is every bit as painful as we knew it was going to be. So this should be confirmation. you knew it would be But now you are no longer in contact with someone because it would forever be this mess. There was something I had read where person was taking a stance about how Oh, people are being too easy about no contact. We're not giving people a chance Mayor giving the example of somebody who has like really problematic political views and makes you feel really uncomfortable, but then said, oh, but they make great dessert. So you can still have contact with them and focus on the dessert This person might be saying terrible, bigoted, or awful or hurtful things that have respect to your child or she or someone dear to you or what you do for a living And just because they can make a hell of an apple pie. to keep this kind of mythology of family going I don't buy that. I think it's again, it's almost an existing societal construct that family means self abandonment. and I don't think it needs to be that. I do think that people can, again, experiment with no contact is how I've always put it with the clients and patients I work with. And I've never seen anyone come to this decision easily. Every single person will say, grief, grief, grie, grief, grief regret, grif, grief grief, shame, grief, grif, guilt,rief, gu grief And then peace. But my God, it was a hell of a path to get there. And even still, they'll say, I'll see families person with their parent, a person with their friend person with whomever. And with I'll look at that with envy because I don't have that. These are not easy decisions, but those punishers Sure, I guess it's little easier for them, whatever their journey is. And yes, there are people where it's avoidance. Those are great candidates for therapy to figure out. because there' usually people who are in that avoidance mode are very scared They're scared to make any move, and in a way it makes sense because every move is going to be painful It's almost like If you choose no contact, it's grief, regret, guilt, shame And if you choose to stay connected, it's pain, stress pressure, Fia But it's also J societal belonging. Oh, look at you. Oh wow. it looks like you guys had a great trip together. What a great picture of all you together. Oh family's great And you're now living this lie I think that eats you up That's societal, yay That's a hell of a bomb. Yeah, it goes a long way. It's almost like that societal validation covers over some of those cracks and that's why we Stay in those places that do so much damage to us. The shame now is carried internally, right? versus externally. Okaykay? I have nowhere to go on Thanksgiving and I don't have really a family anymore. And the world is wondering like,, I wonder why they don't talk to their family 'cause their family seems to be getting together, but they're not. You have to endure all of that. That's also an external shame too they staying in it, that's the internal shame. and that internal shame will eat you up alive. Whenever I have conversations like these And I get to with yourself who sits with people and works through these challenges with them And I get glimpse into what people struggle with and what's in their mind it just Banss Y. radius of compassion. likeike it just it just it just makes me go, o my gosh, look people are dealing with so much. Like when you have a family member who says, I don't want to come to something Usually everyone in the family is just thinking, o what they what's wrong with them? Why have been difficult for it? What's the big deal? We're just all getting together and it's like you don't recognize that there's something that obviously has struck this person and whether you think it's big or small it's valuable to them and it feels like the person who did the thing gets away with it and never is reprimanded or made accountable, and then everyone else who's kind of an innocent bystander is actually pointing fingers at the person who's been wronged and going, comeome on, stop being difficult. It's just a family dinner Cversations like this help because and I hope everyone's Getting what I'm saying is that if you're not one of those people who's doing the no contact or doing the harming and you're kind of in the middle of just hearing your family go through stuff. Be that curious supportive person who goes, Hey, what's up? Like, whyy don't you want to? Because that person just never had that They've had people either tell them to get over it or move on or hey it's just a family dinner. And as I said, Jay, the challenges is that theres there's sort of two different ways this happens. Maybe even three, if you count, the people are just avoidant The people who are punitive, and then of course, the people who've gone through this really anguishing path, they'll say I desperately wanted this to work out. Every child wants nothing more. than for their parents to be their heroes. And they will turn themselves upside down and inside out and craft false narratives to turn the people in their lives into heroes because that's how children survive But when the children are harmed in those spaces or not protected in those spaces, those narratives dog them into adulthood and that sometimes this is it. I think we should be having a much, much more nuanced, balanced conversation about what no contact is. because right now there'sre sort of like what's considered the societal right way. Not all families are good. They really aren't. Many families are harmful That And I wish we lived in that candy coated world where all families were safe They sure as hell or not, many people listening to this say no, they're not and that the complicated process someone goes through Ultimately, for me as a psychologist, I can't tell someone to go no contact. It's a decision they make for themselves And that at best as therapists, we hold their hand when a person is making choice for themselves as uncomfortable as it is. Ultimately the parent can't swim for the child. The child has to swim themselves. The child has to ride the bike themselves. The client has to feel that they've made this decision themselves as terrified as they are and live it. And I'm going to tell you now, I f to see in my practice, granted, I focus on a unique area of the narcissistic relationship The vast majority of people I've seen make no contact decisions from a place of harm reduction, safety, protection, all of that, it has ended up quite well for them. If they're thinking about no contact Would you encourage them to think about a time frrame rather than forever? Listen, when people use the word forever, I always know I'm dealing with someone very anxious, right? Because it's a catastropizing term. I don't know what the hell forever is. so I'm saying let's take the word forever out of our vocabulary for the foreseeable future you're not, you're not going to have contact with this person And you can see it sense of lightning there, right? Like it's not like because forever feels so, so big. But for now you're not, you're not going back and forth, you're not responding. And there is often a You go in the devices and you block the capacity. I'd know in my case, when I tried to go into contact, then other family members were getting in there trying to contact me on behalf of that person. Then I had to go and block and then I came to find out that you could contact me on my computer when I thought I'd blocked your number out on my phone. It's like, that's a glitch. And then it's the emails. and then you start realizing, wow, there's a lot of ways to contact me. You have dem meand or sometimes people will send you a letter by mail You become much more discerning on which phone numbers you pick up. It can feel like an onslaught for a while. And many people with whom you go no contact with, especially entitlement is a big pattern, they feel entitled to you. They feel entitled to an explanation. And there's a part of me that even when I'm hearing a client say I'm thinking How interesting they want an explanation that they couldn't figure this out I have to tell you, Jay, and this is not a frequent circumstance I've seen, but it does happen and I really feel for people going through this. They will say somebody went no contact with me And I have no idea why they did it They'll say literally, I have no idea. One day They just dropped out of my life I have a situation like that in my own where someone went no contact me and We had one last weird conversation where literally it was You are never to get into touch with me again. how could you have done this? I told you not to do what the thing I said it to you. Yeah, I can literally tell you that I was on the ten freeway. likeike that's so clear to me because it was such an undestabilizing conversation and I never heard from them again It's what now we're in twenty twenty six It was at least twenty fourteen And this was a person I was tight with Right I will go to my grave not knowing what exactly happened. I have no doubt that this person has a very clearly constructed But that doesn't make you a narcissist, Yeahah. I No. I don't think no, that's all for debate. I'm sure by some people. maybe by her even. Yeah. That's what's so interesting, right Like it's like, how do you know whether the story you're crafting about someone is True or not Because it's true in your head. I'll be frank with you J if for this person They fell My life feels safer better. stronger without Ramini in it then I say go with God To me, the only win, I think in the world is that people feel safe in their bodies, their psyches, in their souls, and they can express themselves The thing I'll never understand what I did, I have a hint of it, but it seemed like a strange thing to be upset about and I knew there was other things happening in this person's life. Sadly, subsequently I came to find out that this person's life had fallen apart in many ways. so they might have had some sort of, I don't know, some other issues going on. But I also don't think I can be so superior and say, o, maybe she had a breakdown. Maybe I did do something that offended her I don't understand it, which probably makes her think I'm an even worse person So I have no doubt, many people have had the experience of someone just ting cutting them out. And I think that's muddied this conversation because there's people out there you and I are both saying here, we've had someone just disappear and feel very absolutely justified in the reason for not being in touch with us People hear this conversation, they say, no, people don't just get to disappear from our lives. and I'm like Well, apparently they do. And then we have to reckon with what that meant and maybe look inward. and it did for me personally, I have to say I looked inward quite a bit and say What do I need to monitor about myself? L because kind of understood what the person was saying, but I also kind of didn't So I don't think I was changed substantially as a person, but it was always a bit of a head scratcher and it will always be a head scratcher. When do you know it's time to cut off a toxic family member I think it's different for everyone, Jay. I don't know that there's a moment of knowing I will say in my particular case, there was an episode that happened a thing happened that was so reprehensible, but very frankly If that reprehensible thing had happened without the context that led up to it, I wouldn't have gone no contxt. Totally ye. So it wasn't the one event, it was the accumulation and this event kind of cemented that all those data points up til then was in fact the thing. All the times I tried to say, maybe not, maybe not, maybe not, maybe not, oh definitely It may be an event that was preceded by a lot of other approximate events that felt this way It may be that you literally feel like you're getting sick I would also say, Jay, people have to pay attention to what I call the natural experiment. And the natural experiment happens when something intervenes and we don't have contact with them Who knows why life goes on. and one day you lift your head and say I haven't talked to them for six months And that was actually, been this has been really nice. and you notice the difference in your life. I'll even give you a small example It was a holiday of some kind, I dont know Thanksgiving Christmas, something like this. And the very, very problematic person in the family system I was being a little bit petulant and tantrrey and decided not to come to the main event. It was like a dinner or something And some of the family members were sad they werere like, No, no, you should come And another family member who had ultimately been the person responsible, I think for getting them right said, they said they don't want to come And let's honor that wish And they said, no problem Okay, you're have to come They all got together. The group that got together had The most magnificent time twowo of them noticeding like this is amazing. And they noticed it was simply person not being present. It didn't necessarily lead to no contact, but my point about the natural experiment is Sometimes the world comes together to create a circumstance And you see the wow, when they weren't at the wedding, it was so much easier. When they weren't at the dinner, it was so much easier. When I didn't have to include them in the decision, it went like clockwork You see the differences when this person isn't around, but also being apart from them, you might say s funny I don't feel exhausted when I wake up anymore. My stomach isn't hurting me. I'm not getting migraines as much. You may literally have changes in your physiology as this stress goes away You might find that you're sharper at work But I don't know that there's ever a moment. I think that there is often an episode that makes you say, o hell no. It's really only people who are more manipulative and petulant and really immature. that would endnded over one episode. Here's the rub though. here's the problem Let's say the big event happens And that's when you say, I'm not. I'm not going to be in contact with them and men anymore Everyone around you thinks it's just the one event. They don't realize it was a trajectory of stuff. They'll say, o, come on now, you're going to go no contact with someone over one thing. and they're not able to hear that. No it actually it was about fifteen hundred things, but this was the This was it's like the closet rod. I always use that analogy. There's one last piece of clothing you put on the closet rod and it all collapses. It's not because that was a heavy piece of clothing, It was just the last piece that that rod could hold Summer's a gift gift of days that last a little longer, a brighter state of mind. 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That's my business hard at work. But what you don't hear is the hard work of Optimum Business Secure Fiber Internet Send her out. For sixty five dollars a month, I get Business first Fiber with built in security that helps protect customer data. Unreliable and unprotected interternet, on the other hand, just sounds like chaos And I already have enough of that. Call eight fivety five two optimum, or visit optimum dot com slash business today. Terms apply. See optimum dot com slash business for details When I think about it in my life, it's always been that way. and I liked you. almost step ladder of maybe not, maybe not, maybe not, okay, definitely. likeike that's the kind of process that a rational human being goes through. It's like, No, I don't think it is. No I'm giving them grace And then it's like, oh no, okay, I get it.. What do you say to the people that say, but they're your family? This is a challenging question because it's culture. I'm South Asian from very traditional Indian family. I work with a lot of South Asian clients, I work with a lot of Middle Eastern clients, a lot of Latino clients like where family is like family. It's capital F. it's a blood thicker than water construct. Well, we've hit it from different directions. you know, O of which is it's really luck who your family is this idea that somehow this group of people, imagine you get on an airplane flight, like, are those people are supposed be your best friends? It's luck that you walked on that one, you bought that ticket and not they No, to these are people I'm going to be with the next five hours and then by. I'm not going to see you again. It is a bit of luck and some people have bad luck. It's sort of a random sequence The issue of family, I think more than anything, it's to hold space for that. to not say, o, who cares if they're family. They are your family. and this construct matters. For some people, it's a core value for other people. It's been an organizing element for them. For many people, it's the idea, if you're not part of a family system, you're actually deeply unsafe. And so if you're unsafe without a family system, and if your family system is unsafe Again, you're sort of in this damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of catch twenty two So it's to hold space, empathy, awareness that family does matter making this decision all the more Difficult And then it's paying attention to how you know, how are you those differences, those natural experiments, how are you feeling when you're not with them I never hold a no contact agenda for any human being on the planet. I really don't. I'm like, you're going get there or never get there on your own time. When that pressure gets lifted for a person, it opens up a lot more decision making because then they can say, yes, this is family and yes, this is harmful. But the very first time a person's able to Look at another human being, family member or not and recognize that I don't feel safe with them, meaning I don't feel like I can show up as myself. I have to be moalking on eggshells around them. I am happy when they're gone I'm relieved when they're gone Once you actually have that, say those words to yourself, maybe not to anyone else, it opens up something different in you because now you're willing to acknowledge that. so you're caring for yourself by acknowledging something doesn't feel good. Because I think that if we go too quickly with like, oh my gosh, they're right they're my family, we're going too quickly It's just sitting with this doesn't feel good. That's step one And then you're going to give yourself permission to feel that. And then over time you will recognize that, yes, they are family and they're unsafe. More than one thing can be true at the same time. And how to navigate why there are all these things true at the same time. How do you make a decision that works for you? And like it can be a stop start You go out of contact for a little while You find that too difficult. you have children, you want them to meet some members of the family. You're back in contact again. And it kind of, again, there can be an ebb and flow to it, but it's a very, very complicated conversation. For many people, in many parts of the world, no contact is simply not an option And so I always say that you can then, it's a concept I wrote about in the book too called soul distancing Your physical body can be present and you can nod politely and you can talk about the weather and you can say, what a nice dress you have. most important part of yourself, you don't have to abandon it. You can actually be a really protective custodian. How are you doing? What's new with you?ot much. I get up, I go to work. everythingverything's fine You can really do that all the while being consciously aware of like, oh, you don't get to look into this This isnt safe, but so you can find those ways to navigate, but this only works, only works if you take care of yourself which means you prepare yourself ahead of time, you give yourself rest after time, you maintain healthy connected spaces in your life. You have meaningful and purposeful activities in your life. You have to live G yourself permission to live a whole life. if you're going to keep participating in those spaces. I view it as almost like a spiritual form of no contact. L you don't get to be with all of me. And I think that can be one way people can navigate these family spaces. But for those who really did feel like physically violated in their family spaces, that may not be enough and sometimes it's the That person who goes no contact is the first person who breaks an intergenerational cycle too. They may be the most powerful warrior in that system who says enough is enough. And that may sometimes be, for example, I've seen this in family systems where people came out about their sexuality, about gender, and they faced a lot of pushback and they're like you would rather I do not live in accordance with who I am. and that process of coming out is where people will lose people. And then that concept of chosen family, which is the LGBTQ community that' their term where so many people came out and were rejected and hurt and abandoned. And so I think that there's something to listen to that sometimes at those moments Absolutely a person who goes to that saying, this is who I am and they're told, Oh well, we're not going to love you. That's another process we can watch from and many people painfully having to go into contact at those times too Yeah, I was going to ask you, what do you do if you can't go no contact And you answered some of the options there because I always talk to people I love the sooul distancing idea and I often talk to people about the idea of for every one person in your life that is like that If you can't get away from them, make sure there's three other people that people you do open your soul to that you can open your heart to that you can be authentic with because Yes, I appreciate that there may be a family member that you can't do that around. But you can choose three other people, friends who become family that you allow yourself to be aself around and that waysed out Th to one ratio kind of helps pressure that one person. And it's challenging, you know, because if you look at all the great trauma writers out there, Judith Herman, you know, Gabor all of them, trauma that happens in relationship can only be healed in relationships. whether that relationship is therapy, whether that relationship is trusted friends, this is not a walk. You can walk alone. People have to become safe again And that's one of the challenges of having to remain in contact with someone harmful. People remain unsafe. so you do need counterweights to that. And it is hard because once a person's been through harm through a family, through people who should have been trusted What gets lost is discernment. It's the sense of nobody can be trusted or I don't know how to trust people. and above all else, I can't trust myself, and that can make it hard to build healthy social contexts outside of a system where you're feeling compelled that maybe I should go no contact, but I can't. I really think though part of this is because we shame people who go no contact instead of really hearing their story and often how painful it is. And even yes, sometimes it's a mystery and understanding that sometimes yes, it's punitive, but to understand the backstory on it So then we can think about it more clearly Yeah. I want to ask you a couple of quick segments on what no contact is and what it isn't. So What's the difference between no contact and having a fallout Having a fallout might be that they go for a little while not talking to each other because they did have a big conflict and it's almost like they need to re reggulate, they need to reintegrate. But there's an understanding that you will come back together when cooler heads prevail Right? Whereas no contact tends to be something that's coming more from one person. generenerally, again, the kind of protective no contact I'm talking about, it's definitely something where it's somebody who's been through is trying to protect themsel. It's usually a very one person in a relationship. The other person may not be experiencing that need at all. It's really the person being harmed And Whas a fallout is usually a product of a conflict where people are trying to regulate and find a way to talk about it. That feels different to me What's the difference between going no contact and silent treatment? A So the silent, Oh, the Almighty silent treatment. Silent treatment is aggression. You know, we don't think of it that way, but it really is. Some people argue that people do the silent treatment because they're so overwhelmed by an interpersonal situation that they shut down That's not how I understand the silent treatment. The silent treatment is typically a tactic You're not doing what I want I'm not going to talk to you I mean, as far as like you could be dinner with a group and say Could you ask Jay to pass the sugar to me? You know, it's that you know, I am not going to you're not going to get a response from me. It's manipulative because what it typically does, especially in things like family systems, is it results in The win for the silent treatment person is the other person breaks and often may even apologize just to keep the communication happening. In silent treatment, the person's often still very present in your life. They're like in the same house or in the same office or coming to the same things. they're just not talking to you. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And what's the difference between no contact And they then not talking to someone using it as leverage Or is that same I think that's like the silent treatment? Yes. there's something coercive about it. And many people say, especially when their parents use the silent treatment. Young peopleeople will say when they were a child, their mother or their father would use no contact And they would say, I wish they screamed at me Because at least they were looking at me, and they would share these heartbreaking stories of how they would leave their parents notes saying, I will do anything you ask. I'll do anything you ask. What is the parent doing? They're literally shaping this child to be fully subjugated. The child is so terrified of the abandonment of silent treatment. and many people experience silent treatment as an abandonment that we almost get trained to capitulate to a harmful person who realizes the powerful quality of that weaponry and other people don't notice it O when someone' screaming at someone, we know that's that's not all right. When someone's silent treatmenting again with kids, is a devastating approach with kids because a child feels so abandoned, which brings up so much terror for them. Are we getting better at setting boundaries or are we losing our ability to repair relationships We're getting worse at our ability to repair Boundaries is a complicated conversation to me becausecause especially the space I work in When you try to set a boundary, for example, in a narcissistic relationship, it's like self harm at that point, right? You're almost I always say to people, when you try to set a boundary with a narcissistic person, you've actually just harmed yourself because you've told them What upsets you So you've given them the playbook. Do this and now I'm really gonna to get upset. Don't do that That's so dangerous. To me, boundary settings a very internal process. Once you understand how these relationships work, understand how much time you can endure this for. What are your no fly zones? If this comes up or they do this, then that's my sign to sort of disengage, step back and exit because there's really no way to healthully communicate about this, especially with someone who's trying to bait you But I have to say in the same breath, we are also not that good at I think there's a lot of ego in the world right now. I got to make my point. I've got to be right. I don I think platforms like social media haven't helped. People want to be right. And I also think part of it, this one of my personal Dror Romy theories, I don't know if it's true but I'm going to stick with it, is that the world's so litigious, especially in the United States Everyone's afraid of being sued. so you don't want to admit you did anything wrong. If you admit, well then you see seeps into the groundwater of interpersonal relationships, admit nothing. You know,'t that puts you on your back foot. You lose your power. So soon as you bring the word power into a relationship, it's no longer about love. You know, that's it. You've lost the love part of it. That love and power don't get to go in the same sense I think that because of this, this need to be right, the challenges with accountability. In fact, and I think people feeling When people haveve even been hurt, they want to get power, right? That's how they feel safe again. All of those things mean that we are really bad at repair because the first part of repair is to be accountable and people aren't good at being accountable. And some people are afraid if they are accountable, they'll be rejected. Yes. So there's so many other dynamics kind of woven in there that I think we're terrible at repair And when we can do it, it's actually profoundly profoundly powerful. And I again, I'm saying I screwed up with a friend back in the summer, when I was going through the worst time of my life, no right to speak like that. I am so sorry I'm not even in the other part of repair we were talking about before, you can't make excuses So I could have easily said, I did this because of this, this and this. You may get to that at some point, but that can't be part of the apology. I amm so sorry. I spoke to you in a way that you did not deserve. I am so sorry I hurt you. and I haven't done it since. So in that way, that repair has worked for us. And she said, she was smart enough to say You're going through the worst time of your life. I don't expect you to be graceful. So you see it's a dance. B players have to be in it. That's a healthy relationship, but healthy relationships have ruptures. We repaired, now's even now we can trust each other even more is the point. So I think that the issue is we just don't learn. I think actually little kids are better at prepared than anyone in school and they're taught like You can't just take the chalk from him and you say, I did take the chalk roughly and then the child will parrot the teacher somewhere around puberty, we lose it And then it floats into ego I think the biggest mistake we make in relationships is we think we can cut someone off The real reason is because we don't want to have a difficult conversation. Sometimes, sometimes there's we don't want to have the tough conversation and I'm not talking about all the established reasons we've talked about And we know that people don't do no contact in a flippant way But sometimes we've chosen not to repair because we just don't want to have a difficult And there's the avoidance. That's the avoidance piece. And I think that's why that avoidance peace is often overlaid on the no contact conversation becausecause that is the case. I think there are two different issues, but I do think that in some cases people say, this is so uncomfortable for me I'm willing to lose this relationship than to feel this uncomfortable And that's a tragedy because then you're missing the bounty of human experience. But Listen, I can understand it, though for people who grew up in spaces where conflict was downright dangerous, people were brandishing firearms or yelling or screaming and there's domestic violence I can easily understand where that avoidance comes from, and then that becomes really deep seated trauma informed work on what conflict isn't always terrifying, but to debgrade that from how the body hurts from it, it takes a minute Yeah. Have you ever experienced people who've gone no contact and then experience a lot of grief and regret People who go no contact, especially if there's not a lot of you know, clanging and yelling and I'm never going'm talking to you anymore. So there's no clear demarcation point. Most cases, I'm not hearing this. I'm not hearing people six months and saying in fact, they're saying I feel I'm relieved. I'm really relieved. it's pretty rare. M what I've heard more of, Jay, is people have gone no contact and someone gets sick or is dying And their bigger question is I don't get a second chance at this. Am I going to regret not making an attempt at a goodbye No one can answer that question for you, but you're right. You do only have one crack at this. And in those cases, some people have rolled up to and say their goodbyes and the person who was dying was just as oriny and mean as ever. And you know what people said? they said, I wasn't upset in many ways, I listened to my heart, I showed up, and it only confirmed the decision I made for the last twenty years In some cases, there is a moment There's a connective moment. I think that's pretty rare You know, that there's, I'm so sorry for everything I did. We people want the deathbed confession. It's pretty rare in these cases. Sometimes people go expecting nothing but to say can't do this again, so at least let me show up. But by and large, once people get to that initial can I I can by the time people really make the protective no contact decision, they have been harmed so many ways that It is a relief, It's a relief Flipping the rolls If you're the person who's been cut off And you genuinely want to repair the relationship. and now recognize that you've madeade mistakes What's the right way to go about it can't attach our actions to outcomes, meaning that You may say, I really want to let them know. I see everything I did and do it all the right ways, Don't excuse, don't defend yourself, know all do it right. like take accountability Figure out a way to get it to that person, whatever that may be And then that's it. It's almost like you've put something you've, know thrown a feather to the universe and you just don't know where it's going to land definitely don't want to be insistent. You don't want to be feel entitled to a response. You don't want to keep attempting to reach the person through different ways and haranguing them. That's just going to really perpetuate the whole problem that there was initially. I mean, you can find that way to get the communication out there and see out lands. And you know what? this is the hardest thing that can happen as part of the human experience A person may receive that. They may even feel at peace from hearing that and they may never tell you You have to keep it real that maybe all you've done is tried to put that repair in the world and maybe the net result of that is you've relieved something in someone else, but you may not ever be privy to that Is forgiveness always healthy? No You know how I feel about that? Hell no. And I'm so tired of this fetishization of forgiveness. There' a voluminous psychological literature spiritual literature that shows it's good And then there's all those studies on the shelf that people don't always pull off show that when forgiveness is repeatedly offered in situations where the harmful behavior is repeated The forgiver actually experiences negative psychological consequences I think the challenges with forgiveness is people do it from a place of fear when they do it from a place of being shamed. You'll see in spiritual communities all the time, what is wrong with you? You're darkhearted, how dare you don't forgive? It will light in you. Maybe it will, and maybe it won't. I have seen people heal brilliantly without forgiving. and if anything, they'd feel like Forgiving this person feels like one more form of self abandonment. Bea the fact is, Jay, in many cases of trauma , relational trauma, What happened? has changed the person being harmed, their emotional DNA forever It is a heavy burden that has to be carried that affects how a person trusts the world, how they go into future relationships, how they even trust themselves. it's up Th leegacy person carries their whole lives That may not always be forgivable. And forgiving someone is not going to press the accelerator on healing. Some people will say I don't even know that I ever forgave them. I'm now indifferent to the whole thing. I've done my work I'm in a different place Forgive Maybe, maybe not. and I think one of the challenges is because I've had this debate with people. They say, I think you and I think you are talking about forgiveness, but we're not using the same word One of the dictionary definition of forgiveness is to cease to feel resentment Dm I don't know how many people who forgive actually have ceased to feel resentment. I don't. I can think of a handful of relationships in my life where The wrong the wronging changed me forever Change me forever I go through the world differently I don't forgive that I resent that. I resent how I still sometimes have to go through the world, feel unsafe in the world. No And I'm healing just fine And and I've seen countless clients have said, that moment of you and some other authors saying, we don't need to forgive was an absolute pivot point. Because what happens when you make a forgiveness, all your damn work is going into forgiving a perpetrator instead of doing the healing work inside yourself You get there, don't get there. You can heal. If you forgive, you can heal, if you don't forgive. But if it's performative and it's being done in the name of self abandonment, it is going to set you back Discover a spectacular island destination with crystal blue seas, endless sunshine, and the cool Bahamian breeze. Bajamar, located in Nassa Al Bahamas offers your choice of three luxury hotels, over forty five fine dining and nightlife venues, John Batiste's All N new Jazz Club, the Caribbean's most luxurious casino, and one of the kind experiences for the entire family. Like our fifteen acre tropical water park wildlife sanctuaries, world class golf course, and so much more. Visit bahamar. com today Doar that? That's my business, hard at work But what you don't hear is the hard work of optimum business secure fiber interternet Send her out. For sixty five dollars a month, I get businessusiness F Fiber with built in security that helps protect customer data. Unreliable and unprotected internet, on the other hand, just sounds like chaos And I already have enough of that. Call eight fivety five to optimum or visit optimum dot com slash business today. Terms apply. See optimum dot com slash business for details Hey everyone, It's Cal Penn, host of EarsSay, the Audible and IHart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I'm sitting down with Will Wheaton, who played Gordy L Chance in Stand By Me forty years ago and now narrates Stephen King's The Body, the novella that inspired it all We talk about what it's like to return to a story that shaped his life, channeling his memories of River Phoenix in the recording Both, and why the friendships you have at twelve might be the most important ones you'll ever have I know Gordia Lchance. I am Gordia Lchance. Like I mean, even when I was a little kid I was Gordia Lachance when I didn't know it Listen to ears say the Audible and IHart Audioobook Club on the IHart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts when it all comes down to like, yeah, forgive them and move on and heal and Like you said, it feels it can feel too early. it can feel too forced, it can feel too Holier than Thou, like I talk about it all the time with things I've been wronged with where I'm like I was recently in India with my spiritual teacher and I was speaking before he was speaking to a group of people. and quoted him in something I'd learned from him And then he very expertly referenced it but then redefined it on stage without making me feel bad about myself, which is very sweet of him. and he's so learned, he's you know mid seventies and you know it's been a month for like fifty years or something. so has more wisdom than I could ever even try to togetherather, but also has this beautiful way of helping me in the moment without but. So I always thought that spiritual gratitude was this idea that you had to be grateful for everything that happened to you And I always struggled with that idea because I couldn't and I would try and I really pushed myself and I would do this spiritual work and And I'd been like I't be grateful for that. Like that doesn't make any sense I would wonder why I would struggle with it. sometometimes you can beat yourself up spiritually about it. You can feel like you're not good enough in the community, whatever may be He said, you don't have to be grateful for everything that happened to you You can only be grateful for what you have left after what happened to you And that slight adjustment has like changed my heart. I'm like, oh, of course that makes sense. Yes. I can be grateful for the fact that after that happened to me, I'm still alive and breathing, I've got this,'ve got that. I don't know if'd be grate. grateful for the experience for the experence the event. Correct, correct. I know it sounds like common sense when you say it, but to me, it was like a remarkable, and I'd only learnnt this like three months ago. And it wass like a light bulb moment. I was like, o Wow, like I've just been trying to walk down the wrong road And then that's how I feel about forgiveness. Like forgiveness is this idea of like, you at one point will feel so much love for this person and you're like completely. And I'm like I'm not sure that well, I've never seen it. I would love it's a beautiful idea. It's a beautiful concept. But I've never seen it as love. Maybe someone even gets to the point of neutrality, maybe But love for that person, like that's God level stuff. and you know, we are mere mortals, right? And I think that there's I think that the challenges and I've seen this with people, people who are survivors of domestic assault, sexual assault, emotional abuse, No Absolutely not. because you know why? they need to encode within themselves that this All of the this that that person was is harmful Because that's how we as human beings can be safer, but still be able to find safety in other human beings When I tell you what a razor's edge that is to balance on, this is why trauma healing is so challenging. But finding love in harmful experience is no, yes, love for yourself that you are so strong that you could get up and get out of bed the next morning. That's what I tell my clients like, you got out of bed today, like go you. Yeah, ye, exactly. Yeah Dr. Raminy, I want to end with some real life scenarios So we got sent in, so we're going to get your reactions to these. The parent says, I have no idea why my child stopped talking to me even though there were years of conflict Why does some parents genuinely believe this? And what should the child do if the parent really has no idea? why they went no context And this is from the person asking this is the parent? The person asking this is no, it's the person who's gotone no contact because they're asking, why do some parents genuinely believe this And what should the child do if the parent really has no idea why theyre going to? Remember what I wasm saying before, this idea is that there are people out there who say, I genuinely don't know. and I think they genuinely do And I think in other versions It's not they generally can't, they generally won't. They won't see what it is, right and whether they think that their simple apology should have been fine or they should be forgiven all their transgressions, whatever it may be. The challenge for an adult and I'm assuming this is an adult child, the challenge for an adult child in one of these situations is that the temptation is to sit down and lay out a reckoning of everything this parent did wrong. it's going to get absolutely nowhere. And I think that In a situation like that where it's very clear the transgressions are many and discernible that the fact that they can't see it is probably a contributor to why you've gone no contact because people can mess up as I've been saying and say That was not cool parent had said I am so sorry we are no contact, and I fully understand how years of dada, dada, dada have resulted in this I'd really like to redouble my efforts to make change in these spaces because I miss you That's a different conversation. but this parent's like, I don't get this. If they don't get this, you ain't gonna be the one to turn on the lights or said really helpful to just know where You're likely toand. Okay, someomeone goes no contact with one parent and suddenly siblings, aunts, even grandparents start pressuring them to fix it How should someone handle that kind of family backlash? This is a tough one because this is what I'm saying, It's very difficult to isolate and go no contact with just one family member, especially if the family system is relatively close linked Within that group of grandmothers and aunts and siblings and all of that, even that group is heterogeneous. Some of those folks are safer and maybe more psychologically aware than others If there's even one person in that group, you feel that you could actually have a safe conversation with without it becoming again, a laundry list, but rather say after years of this, this I don't feel safe And I have found that I just I can't do it anymore and maybe give a sprinkling of reasons. And so this not this was not a decision I came to easily, that all the things we've talked about So please understand where I'm coming with this. and I'm the first to understand how difficult and inconvenient and everything this is for everyone, I love you dearly. I didn't want that, but I also can't. This All right Hopefully there's one person. Here's where we go, there's no pain free path. There's going to be no version of this where everyone in the family signs off on it. There It just doesn't happen that way. So if you could have that one person who can say Even one person who bears witness and gets it, even if it's still chaotic, you still you may feel a little less like you're losing your mind and at least feel heard. I think that that pressure, you have to have sort of few stock answers like, I hear you, I love you. And I understand why this is hard for you. but please also understand why this would be hard for me. I can't I can't do this. but I thank you for reaching out and I get it. and I know this is hard. You can give an empathic response. The thing I would discourage people from doing is turning this into a battle every time W said. All right, this one. A client says my parent was emotionally harmful But they also paid for my school and helped me financially. How should they decide if they should go no contact? OkayK, Money don't buy emotional indulgences, folks. They don't. And many, many unhealthy family systems will say We paid for school. We helped you with rent We bought you a car. So they're putting a dollar value. So like apparently if you spend a hundred thousand dollars, that buys you twenty years of abuse Fifteen years of gaslighting? No I think that that transactional model is something that, yes again, more than one thing can be true at the same time They did pay your tuition and their behavior psychologically unhealthy and doing harm to you. And both those things are true and you don't owe them anything. Listen, Jay, I've been doing this work long enough that I have seen parents when their kids got no contact, they sent their kids a bill itemized Pages and pages of invoices. This is what this cost. this is what that cost, this is what your the health insurance that we paid for you One case it was a person. I don't even know what they did to anger their parents, but they did they were distancing themselves It came from a lawyer's office in a very itemized way. All of it was broken down. Like it was like tuition costs, the health insurance that they had to carry when they were a kid costs. They had every little thing detailed and helped to give them for a down payment, whatever. And there was the bill And they said, you can work with our attorney's office on a low interest payment plan I mean, it was unenforceable, as you could imagine, but can you imagine? So I think that it is to understand that more than one thing can be true to be a parent is to have financial responsibility. They paid for those things and they're harmful. one it is not, it's not a transaction. Have you experienced the opposite in your office where Kids are somewhat taking advantage of their parents. orolutely, absolutely. And here's when we see, especially in an emerging adult, especially who has narcissistic patterns and feels owed something. So what they'll say is my parents were terrible and maybe the parents weren't great and say they're going to pay for it Okay, so I'm going to