Setting Boundaries for Creative Flow

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I haveve long deep history with this critical voice and this shame and I really think it can kill you, man What part of you still feels like it doesn't belong different parts of me in every place that I go to. If you felt totally comfortable everywhere you went, then you're probably not in the right place What is Riz Ahmed's dream external markers of achievement, the award, the round of applause. They don't nourish you on a soul level and the thing that I'm seeking now is a sense of flow moment when you forget yourself Hey everyone, Wlcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed Today's guest is someone I've been wanting to have in this seat for God knows how many years. I'm joined by the one the only Riz Ahmed, Academy Award winning actor, writer, producer, and artist known for Sound of Metal, Rogue One and the Night of, and for bringing deeply human stories to life. Riz is currently starring in Bait. If you haven't seen it, make sure you do a series exploring identity and the tension between who we are and how we're seen. His reimagined film Hamllet and Digger, his new film coming later this year, Please welcome to on purpose, Riz Ahmd. Riz Honestly Whether it was post nine eleven blues, whether it was fourour Lions We've been with you from the start. I been Caring you on so much. I am a huge fan of How you put yourself out there, the conversations you have, your multidisciplinary art form. And honestly I've been waiting for this moment, I feel like for like God at least at least seven years since I launched the show. Likewise, Jay, because I'm watching you and I've just been rooting for you from the beginning. And you know, we were just saying this before The camera started bing. We have so many people in common in the work world but also in the personal world because we grew up not too far away from each other in kind of overlapping worlds as well. So seeing you doing your thing Blazing a trail is just super inspiring. So likewise, man, I've been itching to get in here and yeah talk to you. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I was thinking about it. and I want to vouch for this because I like doing this when I've got someone on the show when I've got a memory that stands out to me and it was Probably around five years ago I think it was, you'd been nominated for an Oscar We had this South Asian Oscars evening. in LA and you were at the party. It was probably the only time I've actually been in the room with you was me, you and we were talking to Bella, B Bella Bajaru, who's chief contontent officer, Netflix, dear friend And you said to Bella, you were like, give this guy a show, man. were like you were vouching for me even back then. You were like, give him a show, Bella. what are you doing? And I was like, I was like, this is so nice. I'll take you. L You're the man at the moment. you're nominated for the Oscar and you're trying to get me a show. And now we've got three shows at Netflix. amazing. amaz. I feel like you planted a very important frade. I want to give you a flowower and give you a tredit for that, man For me, the reason I was rooting for you was because of not just what you have to say because of course what you say is so rooted in this ancient tradition. It's how you say it. It's how approachable it is, It's how human it feels. It's how relatable it felt Even selfishly on a personal level when I hear you speak When I see the way that you're relating to people or making these things that can sometimes feel very abstract or kind of elillusive ideas, esoteric ideas Bring them into the every day, brring them into our daily lives It makes me feel less stupid. Do you know what I mean? It makes me feel like, okay, yeah, okay, yeah, right. I can I understand that. I get to grips with that. And I'm certainly one of those people who for a long time thought, what's this meditation stuff? What is this? Is this kind of a bit airy fairy? And it actually became such a big part of my life for many years and changed my life in so many different ways. It's really because of people like you making it relatable, making it human. So yeah, I' want personal level, I was like I need more J sh you in my life. be kind man. Thankk you. That means the world. It's an incredible moment for you. I feel like you're everywhere in a good way. I feel like Bait has just pierce through The zeitgeist in the culture I mean, ninety five percent on rotten tomatoes Unbelievable. L that is ridiculous to even think about hum. And like to see the kind of conversations at started. It's not just, oh my God, you should watch this show. It's really good It started conversations about identity, about shame, about mental health, about in a critic about guilt, about all these things. and you see it, wherever wherever I go on my feed, whether it's TikTok or Instagram, either it's you or someone talking about the show How does it feel to put yourself out there in such a vulnerable way because this story has so much of a correlation with your reality. How does it feel to put yourself out there almost not wanting validation? and then to be validated for it. It's really interesting, isn't it? Because the whole show is about validation seeking. and how it can lead us down a really dangerous path. It's very natural, It's very human with social animals to want that connection, want that praise, want that affirmation to be seen, but if you are purely dependent on that external validation And you're not giving yourself that self love, you can become completely lost. And that's what the show is about. And the show is really inspired by my own journey with that You know, I've been on that journey. I continue to go on that journey. I haven't fixed it. I haven't solved the equation. It's a constant battle, you know, trying to find that self love and not just be on a treadmill looking for it from other places. So the show is about that and about trying to get past validation. So in a weird way when people are validating the show I'm like This is a trap. You know, it's interesting. I was saying something L this to some many other day, which is I've never been great at receiving Prase ust now, when you were saying one these nice things about me, I was actually saying, o know I'm here with J. S. I'm going to open my heart, try and be present and receive receive the good energy but somethingomet in me and I'm sure you've come come up against this with all kinds of people. I don't know how you deal with yourself even Something about receiving praise sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable And so I'm trying to find that balance of not being desperate and hungry for it You know, you can't live off a diet of this candy of these dopamine hits of people's pray But also just receive it and avoid it. I can sometimes swing between those extremes. You know There's on the one hand is Googling yourself Lateater night and on the other hand he's like going like, No no' nothing is rubbish. And so I'm just trying to find that healthy middle ground because the show is about that in a way. Yeah, no, I find that powerful because I feel like It's almost like my friend said this to me the other day and I really liked it It's this idea of like too tight too loose. Like sometometimes you're holding yourself too tightly everything matters and everything's important. Yes. And then sometimes you don't hold yourself tight at all. It's too loose and you're like oh, nothing matters. No It doesn't matter what anyone else says about me. And it's like if you think about it, you're always trying to oscillate between too tight, too loose. and you're trying to find that perfect balance of like, How do I hold myself in a way I don't suffocate myself or strangle myself But how do I hold myself in a way that I don't also just myself go where nothing is important or valuable And I was thinking about it, because in the show we get so many of these flashbacks into Sha's childhood, his teenagers. I've seen the show. I loved it and I have been talking about it with colleagues and friends and people who have all had interesting reflections on it, both people from South Asian backrounds and people from completely not. And that's what I love about the show is that it starts really fascinating dialogues beyond culture and gender and race But one of the things that stood out, I wanted to ask you is, what's a childhood memory that you have that you would say defines who you are today. When I was about eight years old, me and my brother got put up against a wall by a couple of skinheads, right? For people outside of the British context, they' kind of like it was like a racist movement basically. And they put a knife to my brother's throat. I remember being eight years old, looking up at him. He was kind of defending me And it was just this kind of shocking realization that, oh, I'm different. I'm different in a way that means that I could be in danger and feeling othered in that way Maybe more vigilant. made me more aware of my identity. in many ways hass set me on a lifelong journey of trying to like square the circle of my identity Some periods of time I've tried to code switch a lot. I've gone to a predominantly white upper class school which I did Code switch in that way, then it' hang out in my neighborhood, I'de switch another way And I think that journey has defined me. I think that's how why I started acting code switching from one social environment to another. It's a kind of performance, right Where I'm at now and really what the show Bate is also trying to do and what it's about. It's about that search for identity. I'm trying to bring all those different sides of me together, not edit and center myself when I walk into a room. I did this monologue for SNL UK recently and I was working with the writers on it. and it was about identity crisis. I was like, I'm having an identity crisis. The UK is having everyveryone's having identity. We're all trying to work out we are And I said, lookook, that's why I sound like a mix between Stormsy and Rishi Sunak. And just trying to embrace that, be playful about that confusion. I think that moment of realizing my difference and navigating identity was big one. The other one's a lot more of a playful memory Every time There was a community gathering At some point in the aunties would be high on Coca Cola and Panta. and they would say, Bring Golu down. Golu was my name in the community. No Golu means roundu. Yeah. spherical round object Apparently my brother named me Gulu I had a round e growner. Don't ask. Bring Gulu down. It's time pererform And I would do Michael Jackson dancing and I would do like just r and it honestly They basically I'd be smashed off Coca Cola as like a six year old, just like just freaking out, just throwing my limbs I just remember these rows of aunties just sat there clapping, just feel like, this is the best feeling ever. I'm just getting to express these quiet wild Animal movements. I mean it looked nothing like how dancing should look. I just basically freak out in this really expressive way and Be a fnd for it Quite strange, but I don't know if anyone else can relate that. if any other kids out there were brought down to dance for the nineties But I'd say the mixture of those two things you know self expression and navigating identity is something that could be a bit dangerous. Those two elements, I think have ing really forge my whole path and I've been exploring how those two things relate to each other my whole life. Yeah, I'm fascinated by those two memories because they like you said, once playful and has certain consequences with what happens with that, the validation, the praise, the applause for losing control. And then the other one is actually quite to be in that threatening place as a young man with your brother and feeling the racist implications of having that kind of interaction with some. So many people go, I mean, I'm sure you experiencedcent one hundred percent. When you said Gulu, I was like, so I was overweight growing up. So I was bullied for that. I was bullied for the color of my skin because the area I grew up in there weren't a lot of people of all colour. And so I get it. L I hear that and that doesn't make it any more normal or easy or better for any of us. It's just like, no, that's what you went through. But I can also relate to the other side of the anntis I could totally relate to everything you just said or I'm just like, we'd be at like an event and the actor pulled out or something. and then my mom would be like, all right, you got to go on stage and save the day. And I'm like, what do you mean? Like I haven't prepared anything, I'm not ready for this. and I'd have to figure it out. We're all out here just trying to please aunties. Literally literally What' trying to do? What is happen? And the funny thing is where I was saying this to you earlier and I saved it, but I was like You know, like you kind of You lived the auntie's dream. L you went into a great school You then went to Oxford and did PP. For anyone who doesn't know, that's the prime Mister's degree. Like the prime mininisters of England, I think pretty much every single one of them did PP at Oxford as a subject. is the most world class degree could possibly do in the whole entire country. Then you go I want to become an actor and then you go to be an actor too. I'm like, you did it. L you did the academic dream You did the you did your dream like When you look at it from that perspective of, hey, wait a minute, I actually lived every dream here When you look back and go, what is my dream now? or uncovering what is Riz Amed's dream you have anything that feels close? You know, it's so interesting hearing you say this because I don't know if you have this J. If I sit back here and I say You you've done this thing, you've brought kind of mindfulness and this eastern philosophy to like the world, you've got the world's number one health podcast, all this kind of stuff You're aware of those things posossibly as facts But your internal experience of it Does it really land like that? What does it feel like a series of Mistakes that went right, moments of hubris that went wrong A journey that's constantly unfolding that you're not quite in control of And in many ways, like you don't stop to like breathe it, but maybe you I mean, I'm sure you stop to breathe all the time. So you stop to kind of in, you know, kind of really Check out that perspective. But when you're saying these things about kind of living the dream or whatever, I guess I don't see it like that. I feel very grateful for my journey And maybe the reason why I don't see it like that is Ive realized that all these kind of external markers of achievement D don't really learn donon't really land in the way you think they will the award The round of applause Th these fleeting moments, these moments have kind of Dpamine hits, those moments of the little kid dancing in front of the aunties being handed another cup of Coca Cola in a round of applause and a, you know, those moments They feel nice Good, but they're very fleeting. They don't nourish you on a soul level, those external things I think what we're searching for as artists as storytellers, as actors, but really any of us is a sense of flow You know that moment when you forget yourself? It's that feeling when you're not literally self conscious And you talk about this so much, right? And there's this feeling of connection to all things and all people and every now and again in aleeting moment, whether you're lost in a jigsaw puzzle you love or a video game or or on stage performing or in a conversation, playing with your kid. You forget yourself. That's the thing I'm chasing It's trying to living that as much as possible, both in my Yeah And in my life, I want to try and just find a way of just J living as close as possible to that pocket. rather than these milestones and these trophies And these things of achievement, of course, we all have an ego. we need one. I'm still setting goals, I'm still setting targets. We're still living in this world But I've realized in a weird way Having achieved some of those things, having ticked some of those boxes Do doesn't feed your soul in the way you think It will It makes so much sense because I think as humans, we're only good at living in the two extremes. So one is life is all about goals. it's about the milestone. it's about winning. And I want to get there. And then the other option is, o, none of that matters. I've just got a B And really it's all in the middle somewhere, like you're saying, which is I need to have goals and I need to Kn where I'm going But I know that that's not the thing that's gonna to feed my soul or make me feel full. I've been just thinking about this a lot lately because I talk about these things and I practice these things, but then you meet someone who does it better than you more naturally, more effortlessly, and you go, You're talking about me? Yeah, yeah I was talking about you. I was tal. Thank you. I was talking with one of my friends who's like She can make like if she saw Beautiful colored flower on the side of a roome She would stop and grab them and feel like someone just gave her a million dollars. Oh, amazing. And it sounds ridiculous to say it, but having watched her do that I'm just sl That's why I won Like to be you know, to be able to turn that really ordinary simple moment Yes into feeling like it's the most all And we see this in kids. I know you're a dad too. it's like, you see this in kids when you watch a kid just marvel at something and they're lost in a moment. You know there's that classic stereotypical thing of like trying to get everyone out of the house. P in your shoes because we've got somewhere to be. milestone, objective, achievement, goal. And the kid is like Playing with the Velcro on the shoes And it's that.. That's the thing. That's what it's all about. Its this moment. What you're saying kind of reminds me of obviously is that cliche, It's not the destination, It's a journey. But I think you need to set the destination so that you get to experience the journey And that's what I'm talking about. is like you can aim to achieve XY Z. Just know that XY Z isn't going be the juice The juice is going be that feeling of flow that if you're lucky, you might feel trying to get there. you know, the love that we've got on Bait was overwhelming for me in a way because it was so personal because it was drawn from such a All my insecurities and neurosy is in such a personal place, not because I'm trying to do something is all about me, actually because I think those feelings are universal I thought I was just saying to my wife is like, Should I be enjoying that more Should it be landing more That's when I realize like it's Aually the reward was the process of making it, was the process of reaching inside to a vulnerable place and kind of offering it There's that moment of offering is that moment of letting go There's this sample at the start of a Jay Cole track called the climback tripull the clamb back and I think it's a Smble from a very old audioobook called The Tu of Leadership and it says, you need to ask yourself why are you doing this work. Is it to get Or is it to let go M That's it. when youre reaching inside to share something and it's an offering, that is the reward man, that feeling of lightness, that expansiveness The things you get back from it, they're nice. But it's never going be the juice like that l and go was. So I'm trying to making my peace with that now Summer iss a gif The gift of days that last a little longer. a brighter state of mind So giveift yourself a new Kia at the KIia Summer Sticker sales event, Especially tagacked vehicles including the Sernto, Sportage, Carnival, as well as the Nuro Hybrid. All backed by a ten year one hundred thousand mile limited powertrain warranty. So the gift of summer can keep on giving for summers to come. Kia Movement that inspires Call eight hundredty three four K for Details hosoafree event and seven hundred six twenty six to deala for warranty details Hey everyone. It's Cal Pen, host of EarsSay, the Audible and IHart Audiobook Club This week on the podcast, I'm sitting down with Will Wheaton who played Gordy Le Chance in Stand By Me forty years ago and now narrates Stephen King's The Body, the novella that inspired it all We talk about what it's like to return to a story that shaped his life, channeling his memories of River Phoenix and the recording booth, and why the friendships you have at twelve might be the most important ones you'll ever have I know Gordy Lance. I am Gordia Lchance. L Like I mean, even when I was a little kid, I was Gordia Laciance when I didn't know it Listen to ears say the Audible and IHart Audiobook Cub of the IiHart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from MintMobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for fifteen dollars a month is back So I thought it would be fun if we made fifteen dollars bills, but it turns out. That's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try at midmobile d. com slash switch Upront payment forty dollars for months ninety dollars for six mons one hundredy dollars for twel month, reired fifteen dollars for month equalent to taxes bees extra. initial term only greater thanty gigabytes be slow netork busya term That's huge, though, to even be attempting to do that because it's so easy to stay on the handster wheel. It's almost easier to just producing, keep building, keep putting out, keep doing that thing. You had this great line. I think you said it In one of the interviews and it's it's in the themes debate. It's even in I believe it might even be in the show, but you said like life just feels like one big audition And I wanted to ask you about that. I think it's such a great line because I think people are exhausted feeling like their life just feels like one big audition, bigig time. And we see obviously your character, Charlotte like He's going for an actual audition, but then his life turns into pretending like everything has to be about that moment and he has to be that character in his normal life. And I think we do that to ourselves. Is it possible to live as if life is not an audition. Yeah, that is really the central idea of the show. That's why the show is based around an audition It's not really a show about being an actor. It's about this. We always feel like we are all nditioning And that's because I think of social media. to a considerable extent, The attention economy that we all exist in, that our value is about our visibility And so we're all constantly performing this version of ourselves that we think we should be that we think people want us to be That's true in your LinkedIn profile on a Zoom call. on your social media Just as it is for an actor Right? Like here's the script. I have to behave like a more desirable, put together, successful version of myself, but actually I can't make sense of this script of life And I'm having a panic attack And so how do you switch that off How do you kind of like performing I think is really interesting because You could say Well, you know what, it's about being really vulnerable It's about embracing your messiness. You could also get into like performative vulnerability I think so much of it isn't about what you do, it's about why you're doing it and how you're doing it. And I have to be honest, at least for myself, like I've never gotten to the point where I feel like I've cracked this. but I have some days, some afternoons where I just feel like It's not about me Yeah I forgot all myself. I mean that sense of flow. And ironically thats when things are going the best you know, when I'm not thinking about them in that way. But I don't know I mean, how do you kind of find this as well, particularly kind of operating in a world that's about mindfulness and meditation and finding your purpose on a spiritual level. But of course the medium is often digital and social media. And how do you square that circle? Be it be In a way, it's similar is like being an actor, one hundred percent, you know, you're trying to do something spiritual and forgetting yourself, but you're doing it with people watching. I haven't figured it out either. it would be stupid to say I have. and I'm grappling with it too. And that's why this interview was so exciting to me because the themes in bait are so universal no matter what you do. And like you said, whether someone's applying for a job on LinkedIn or whether they're just trying to make their mom happy or whatever it may be, it's all in there. And so for me I started to realize that and you'd feel this way But as an actor, it's slightly different because with an actor Everyone thinks you are your roles So right? like if someone meets Chris Hemsworth, they think he's th And like they think they get a picture out man. Yeah they Yeah they think they get a picture with Thor. If you see Robert Downey Jr, you think you're with Ironman. like that you know, Tony Stock. likeike that's who you're in love with. You're not You don't know who Robert Downey Jr. is. sameame with Rz Amed. Whereas for you the public and private itself, there's an authenticity, there's a coherence to it. Yes, there is in the sense of yes, I do this in real life and I do it online, but I'm also a complete human being with lots of other desires and lots of other complexities. So like What I try and do as much as I can, which helps me more than helps anyone else is like I try not to say anything profound when I'm around people because it people come over for a dinner party. They're expecting Jay's going be dumping some Yeah I'm like literally the playest like Yeah justan United Scores. Yeah, exactly. I would literally start talking about football because all I'm trying to do is like I don't want to play up to the caricature of what I think I've become. It's like a comedian that just thinks they have to be funny all the time. So I can feel like, oh God, I've just got everything that comes out of my mouth has to be profound. And not only is that not realistic, it's not possible. I'm a normal person. E I say is like deep and life changing and I don't even want to be that. so It's this fascinating thing that I'm always dealing with Who makes you feel better, Jay, the time we've spent, you've always felt to me to be very superficial. Thank you. I' very I know's who you wantan to hear ye But yeah, so I think my point is I'm always, in one sense, compensating for that by creating moments of brereaking the image You know, somebody said something really interesting to me that in a way inspired the whole show of Bait, right? It was one thing was this feeling of life for all of us feels like an addudition. And the other thing was The distance between your public and private self is the amount of shame that you carry distance between how you want to be seen or how people see you And who you are when no one's watching performance that we are all living in, that's actually about that's a measurement of shame. And I was like, I want to do something in that bottom for me in that That space between those two versions of yourself That space really started opening up for me a lot aboutbout ten years ago When it started to become more known in America doing some work here and doing things like Star Wars, that is when It felt so at odds, you know perception and the reality couldn't be more different and that's something that's stressful. Ad, but also kind of funny. And so I wanted to kind of liberate myself of that shame, hopefully invite other people to liberate themselves of that shame as well by by actually trying to collapse that distance between the public and private self So I'm always an actor. What if I make a show that's taking all my vulnerabilities and neuroses and laugh about them and put them out there. And there's so much in the show that's really directly from my upbringing. There's that skinhead moment a version of it. I had a panic attack once when I was supporting Wu Tang Klan in concert at Kennish Town Forum in North London We refilmed me having a panic attack. Yeah Kish toown for him. I said, I want to do the same place. I want to burst out into the same alleyway and have the same panic attack there Even you know, the British seecurity serervices, MI five and MI six rec recruiting my character. they've tried to do that With me I can't believe that. Yeah, that's a crazy st. A I became more known as an actor, they reached out several times saying, Do you want to help us with messaging? Do you want to sit down? I was like, It know'm not getting involved me No, thank you I just tried to say all these kind of moments of confusion and contradiction and try and them out there because like you said, the gap between your public and private self can feel like a strait jacket And I think we're all doing it. You don't have to be You or me, like I said, we're all kind of Performing, it feels like these days. Yeah And I feel the challenges and I love that idea, the one that you shared just now, this the gap between your public and private self big shame is or how deep the shame your experience is and I think that The biggest challenge becomes when you never leave the stage. And so everyone has to perform, everyone has to perform at work, everyone has to perform with Family, you know, there's going to be places in your life where you have to perform. life is that way. but if you never leave the stage and you feel like your performance on stage is who you are and is reflective of your worth. That feels like when you're really stuck because now you're saying The value I get from being on the stage is all the value I have. And especially if when you save the stage, you're trying to be as boring as possible. Do you know what I'm trying to say? You're trying to be as imperfect as possible. What is love? What is your safe place? What are your safe relationships? a place where you don't have to perform We get to be the messy chaotic, neurotic, boring version of yourself. As for this weird things happen it's like, The place of love and safety is a place where And it should be like this, you know, my cousin's They laugh about what I do. You are friends with one of my cousins, right?. And we play football together like fifty years. Exactly, right. But what I thing I love about that WhatsApp group with my cousins is when I nominated F Ooscar for acting One of my cousins? genuinely was like Okay, cool, like What is that a big deal? Is that like when I won regional employee of the month I was about to say like, world, I would tell she's not like ring regional employee. And another cousin came in and went, No, it's not like that because you actually won that award Gent toin the mth. he didn't win. Ohs s that's healthy. Good, Do you know what I mean To have your safe place be one where those things don't matter where the performance is immaterial, but it can be lopsided, right? It's why people get addicted to being out there and getting a pat in the back. Not only are we trying to be liked or validated, it's like what Bayit again is set up for is trying to be something you're not. Obviously your characters trying to become the next James B boond and it's not really about bond. it's this idea of I'm trying to be something I'm not. And I think that is even more difficult than just trying to be liked. Because before, there's one version of you trying to be liked for who you are And now you're trying to be lightk for someone you'll never be And that's like an even more complicated place to be because now you're taking on traits personersality types clothing, whatever I mean, I'm half disappointed you didn't up in a tuck today. You know that, right? Like it's like for everyone else, the subway takes you shop up in a tuck. everyveryone else have to be This is where why I get to be boring You donre not bry. lookook great. But yeah, it's like but that idea of trying to be someone when're not I find that to be like the golden handcuffs, the drug of society where I remember when when I left the monastery and I started working in the corporate world just to pay the bills and survive I remember thinking to myself This place is trying to make me someone that I'm not Yeah. And I could spend thirty years here becoming someone that' notock become partner can make money, whatever. and that's the challenge people are having to work with because We're lucky we get to express who we are through our work and tell stories and everything. But when I think about someone who's like , I've got you know, Riz that's what I've got to do every day Like I have to be someone I'm not. Do you think that we all have an essential essence and go, this is who you are? Like I said, I grew up code switching with these very different sides to myself, wearing a school uniform school and then shivakamis at home and then rebok classics and fake Versace out with my friends, literally changing costumes, accent and personality ' a form of acting. Now I try and bring all of that together, making things like Baate or my version of Hamlet or whatever, where we bring these different things together in one place, do we have an essential center? Isn't it just about Our circumstances and our environment This is when I'm asking you to say something profound J. I need you to help me out with this. What's your take on this? Do you think we have like, okay, this is you at your core and that's you at your core? I believe that life is more about collection and connection of ideas and stories and narratives that you've built as opposed to a center that was always the case and it can sound easy to say it, but actually it's really hard. Like I always say to people, I'm as much in love with monk wisdom as I am with building a media empire, as I am with being a loving partner as I am with a good friend. Like I'm like in love with all of those parts of myself And I'm like trying to become okay with all of those things, those things that are seen as contradictions correct and paradoxical and they feel like they don't mesh. But I'm like if everyone sat down and asked themselves who they were I think we all have paradoxes We've been taught to say, I'm an accountant I'm married, I'm Hindu. I'm whatever it is. we've been taught to have very simple labels which A very you know, incomplete. Yeah. And I guess it's like less about Finding yourself means being in one lane. Yeah. I don't believe in that. Yeah. I think that having all these different sides to who we are is human and universal and healthy in a way over the last ten years or so, I kind of really went on this journey of trying to make work from a more personal place came into this game I felt like for some reason I had to justify it beyond just myself enjoying it. Now and like I my joy is valid, you know, joy. And if other people take joy from my work, that's valid as well. But I always felt like it's got to be a us, right? And for me, that was about trying to stretch culture this idea of O person at a time, one film screening, one performance at a time, opening people's hearts and minds to an experience that didn't think they could relate to, but actually, wow, I recognizeed myself in it I was a big fan of watching the Crown. And you know, when you're watching the crrown, you're suddenly like, I'm the quueen of England That's me, I'm. I totally you know how it's this amazing body swap that story can achieve, right? And so to try and open people's hearts and minds to realizing that we're all the same. We're all one and to stretch culture in that way And before I used to think, okay, that means me popping up in all these roles that are as different as possible to me change people's ideas about who can play that role can be in a Star Wars movie and this kind of stuff. And now more and more, I think like I wanna share the messy contradiction of myself. I used to think acting was about putting on the mask. Now I think it's about taking it off It's actually about sharing the most personal thing possible and That ends up being the most universal. Yeah thing. Yeah, you know. somethinghing actually I've never really talked about publicly before, Jay, but I did this film called Mogul Mogli And it's about a guy who an artist who suddenly loses his ability to walk. becomes tremendously ill overnight and is never sure if he's going to get his life back. It was an expliration of lots of themes that I was interested in creatively, but what people don't know is that basically really happened to me It was twenty fifteen And I just started filming Star Wars I'd never done a studio movie before, never done a big franchise. I never thought that would be my path. I was really happy doing indiess like Night Crawler and Four Lions. Id suddenly got to be in this film set with stormtroopers and all these big things. I was like, wow Is it going to happen for me one week into filming that I Star Games weird pain my legs And I thought, okay, maybe I've pulled something during one of the action scenes and I woke up one morning and Cn't out of bed In a wal tri to go to a hospital they were They just kind of like paled me off, they didn weren't really sure what it was I went to the hospital back in my parents' neighborhood the same hospital I was born in when I was visiting my parents said, let me go and check get checked out there. They immediately saw what was happening and they were like, you need to be admitted to hospital straight away. I remember saying I you have me feelix the home was right now. And I said You're in a very dangerous situation right now And I'll explain to you what's happening, but you need to be hospitalized immediately And I just felt like, what's happening to me? It's my life kind of falling apart before my eyes I end up spending two and a half months in hospital was unable to walk. I went down to just under fifty kilos. Wow U a hundred pounds, you know lift my arms, I couldn't walk. And yeah was kind of going to a stroke gym every day. A weird thing happens when your life falls apart like that When you're confronted with your complete lack of control It's really humbling We realize if I don't even control my own body. then maybe everything that I do have is a Gift I remember being in hospital com back to film the rest of Star Wars Forget having a career, ever being able to walk again I remember being sat there and seeing like a pigeon He sat on the window sill of this NHS hospital. I'm being almost moved to tears by its beauty It soundsbe it sounds crazy, but maybe you can relate what I'm saying, where you're just like, man, I did nothing to deserve that pigeon coming to visit me I could see up close. Pigeons are actually Amazing they're like a little bit green and red and you're getting seeen the sunlight shine off of me. This thing that I takeen for granted absolutely blown away by this Animal this wild animal that was there and I felt this sense of such humility and gratitude I've always believed ever since then it's when you're brought to your knees that you're halfway towards praying H It brings you closer to the love in the universe And I went on a real journey and that's when I kind of really started meditating In earnest This kind of crazy crazy journey where It's a kind of almost grieve and let go of my life the way I thought it would be. And it was almost like I felt like God Well the universe was saying all this stuff that you want. happening for you now, right? Iake sure you appreciate it. Don't take it for granted You know, It was I was being taught gratitude just before being given the gift My friends it text to me like, bro, I've just seen the Star Wars phos man like You're going be in Star Wars. Yeah I'm in a hospital Desperly trying to get the nurse' attention because I can't get out to go to the toilet and I don't want to wet the b My life is just it couldn't be more different to what people are perceiving it to be. somethingomething about that experience made me want to start telling work from a personal place and the reason for that is that I felt off of shame around it I felt a deep sense of shame. I've never really talked about it publicly for now, anyone else going through that right now want to kind of share that and offer that as an experience because I felt this kind of weird shame and I felt this critical in a voice coming out that was like You deserve this This way you should be You to you belong to up here now?'re getting straight by Dannis. this is your fate Day you think Do you have the things you want all this shame and all this kind of like This really venomous voice was coming out And I was like Litally, this is the thing that's killing me The only way to hear myself of that voice. Oing it is owning my experience, losing the shame around my experience, losing my shame around who I am That' what Mogul Mgli is about. That's what Bate is about Because I believe, you know, what happened to me was a kind of autoimmune condition And autimmune conditionions is when the body attacks itself. And I know we're both big fans of that book, The Body Kes a score You know, it was my belief that I was at war with myself crritical in a voice was so out of control. I was always attacking myself, beating myself over the stick so much that in a way my body had turned on itself I mean, I told this story jokingly before about one about tell you, which is Two years after I'd finished filming the Night off, I'd still get up in the middle of the night Go to the bathroom and start running scenes again This is the show has come out I' want an Emmy for this role I should have moved on my life. I still in the back of my head it's like. N good enough. You' knowre good enough. It's embarrassing You think I was good get back up there, do it again. Wow. So I had this voice in me and is my belief that that critical inner voice led me to that hospital bed And I had to look it in the eye. And say no more shameen No more shame. I'm going to own this I'm going to create work from this and that's what sound of Metal was. That's where Mugul Mgli was coming from that direct experience and the universe brought me sound of Metal, which is also about arist's going through a health crisis, I was like, No no, you're not done with it You got go back there Youve got to make work from this place. Yeah, man, I have long deep history with this critical voice and this shame and I really think it can kill you, man It's not something that I'm done with But I think that critical inner voice just he's not the guy on the megaphone, but he's a guy who's always going to be at the party He if I'm lucky hes the corner of the pi Summer is a gift s The gift of days that last a little longer, a brighter state of mind. So giveift yourself a new Kia at the KIA Summer Sticker sales event, spepecially tacked vehicles including the Sorrento, Sportage, Carnival, as well as the Nio Hybrid. All backed by a ten year one hundred thousand mile limited powertrain warranty. So the gift of summer can keep on giving for summers to come. Kia Movement that inspires. Call eight hundred threety threety four Ka for details hostoa Free event and seven hundred six twenty six to dealer for warranty details Hey everyone, it's Cal Penn. I'm the host of EarsSay the Audible and IHart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast. I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project Hail Mary. Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science. And what happens when you wake up alone very far from Earth I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections. and it's like, okay, yo, yeo, yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, No, at this point it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. There's places in this book deeply emotionally affected me And I left it on the mic. That's great 'cause it served the story. People will say like, oh my Godd, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah, dude me too. Listen to EarsSay, the Audible and I heart audiobook club onn the IHartt Radio apppp or wherever you get a podcast discover a spectacular island destination with crystal blue seas, endless sunshine, and the cool Bahamian breeze Baham Mar, located in Nassau Bahamas, offers your choice of three luxury hotels, the richly refined Rosewood, the playfully hip SLS, and a stylishly modern Grand Hyatt. 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Visit Bahhamar. com today and discover a vacation destination where memories are made for a lifetime Bahamar, life spectacular As hard as it may be talk to me about the lowest moment, the worst day of going through that time in hospital, because Those are the moments that We all Have experienced Rock bottom But those are the moments you never hear people talk about because They're scary Yeah, and and I feel like when I'm hearing you talk about it, I'm like Sounds like you were dealing with a lot For something mental to become physically Z debabilitating when you're a fit young man, healthy man in general, like That means there was there was a real war within yourself as you rightly said it. Talk to me as much as you can about that I was alone at night in the hospital And they were pumping me full of a lot of steroids intravenously. and steroids keep you up couldn't sleep And I just felt TV alone whatever was going on with me, it was resistant to treatment. So I got a tiny bit better and then it went it was going south and he started sensing that maybe there was it might be affecting my heart And it might be affecting my ability to breathe and it certainly it was affecting my ability to swallow I remember this because On set starffers. God blessed them. carried on sending me food to the hospital And I was having trouble swallowing it. and I was like, am I going make my way out of this Am I going to die here is why I started asking myself and I start talking to God And I remember that rock bottom moment Again, like I said, when you' brought to your knees this when you're halfway to praying, it was that moment of Total helplessness I started talking to God and I said Please give me a chance. Please let me live I promise you as much as I can. give I want to give And what I meant by that was and I said like, I just feel I haven't emptied myself yet You know, I've got more to give. I remember just pleading with God And just the tears just streaming down my face and just saying Yeah, if you just let me live, if you let me get through this, shoe I will empty myself. And try and give from whatever you've given me And u It was in Incredibly scary And the next morning I remember they said I said that they might have to start a really intensive kind of chemo on me card, man. I mean, that's like's a harrowing time like in your life. like that's like just when I hear about it because I I Not not, it wasn't life threatening, but My version of the mental turning of physical was I develed while I was a monk, I developed polyps in my throat And so these get on your vocal chords and people generally get it from like vocal exhaustion or lack of vocal rest or some sort of vocal disruption. And I think for us in the monastery it was mantra, it was chanting, it was, you know and I do not have a singing voice for whatever it's worth, but I think my vocal range is pretty limited and I was probably straining it. I don't even know how it happened. that's the physical version, but we all know there's From what we're talking about, there's so much more to it, whether it's a lack of expression, a lack of authentic communication of where you're at And I remember having to get them lasered off my throat. And so I went into surgery, got them lasered off. It's pretty like, you know, you don't feel it, you're sedated. It's not like I said, it's not life threatening, but For month after you're drinking from a straw because you can R. Okay. And you can't talk. so I have a whiteboard and I remember moving in back with my parents at the time becausecause couldn't be in the monasterry and I wouldd literally write to my momum like what I could eat. Water whatever it was, and I'm literally carrying a whiteboard around my neck basically and just writing stuff to my family because I can't say anything And at that time, I'm like, I give speeches at colleges, I give talkks to the temple. I'm like speaking is my fear. That's what I do of course. And it's all gone Of disappeared and I can't even say anything. Like I'm writing words on a whiteboard And I remember feeling very similarly to what you're saying about seeing that pigeons. praying to God I can relate to it. again, like mine was not life threating It wasn't you know, there's a difference between not speaking and not walking. No, but it's profound because it's your your gift turns to your curse. one hundred percent It's like the thing that you are blessed with, which is this ability to communicate and this desire, this purpose you have. That is The thing is taken from correct And so how has that affected the way that you? I mean, did that just make you even more motivated to speak and to choose your words and think about your words? Yeah, I had to go to a vocal coach to train and all of that kind of stuff and they said that you would get your You know, your natural voice would come back. It came back softer I'd lost the raspiness and the depth of my voice. I sounded different now I sound back to normal if anything, maybe it's bit better now, so I've gott take it. But like at the time it was like, I was like, God, I'm gonna to have to learn how to talk again. Like that's how we felt. And what it did for me was a few things. I remember talking to one spiritual guide at the time And I said to him, I said, I can't to God out loud. anymore. Like I can't hear myself talk to God. I can't chant, I can't mura is such a big part of Eastern tradition I cant out loud and you're meant to ch it out loud, so you can hear the spiritual sacred sound. like that's our practice And he goes to me goes, God's teaching you to chant with your heart Like And I was like, God, like that that at that time I just remember that like hitting me. It was like he was like, yeah, you think well you think you talk to God out loud. like you think That's what God listens to like God's listening to this. like God knows what's going on in here. It's got nothing to do with sound and voice and I was like, wow, that's That's huge to learn to talk to God with my heart. what does that even mean? Yes. And then at the same time, it's what you said where it was like, okay, now that my voice is starting to come back How am I going respect fact that I have a voice, like to and you know, to not take it for granted to be like Can you feel that this ease with which we're talking right now and we're communicating and I can hear you, you can hear me. When that goes away, God, life feels colorless and you know it loses so much value. and so Again, and you know, we were talking about this offline as well. like when you Of course you forget all this. You start taking all the gifts for granted again, you probably have to in a way to try and kind of move through the trauma. but I don't know if you have moments where you remember that and you just sink into that deep sense of humility and gratitude. and humility is the word. I mean, you're taking me back that. I don't think I've actually thought about this I don't think I've talked about it publicly to be honest myself. I can't remember if I've actually talked about it being reminded of your experience, like your experience triggering me going Yeah, like that, you know, it was intense. That was intense and and Iout dr make Yeah was drumic, but All of that to say with all of youriewers to me about Where does the shame come from going through something like that? and then're not wanting to share it Because I think there's the pain of going through something traumatic And there's then there's the pain of communicating it to a group of people who may or may not actually understand what the hell you just went through. Yeah. But talk to me about where was the shame for you in wanting to share that? And what kept in for so long? I will but can I first tell you something about your voice? Yeah U I love your voice Uh, but here's the thing When I sometimes I'm walking down the street, doesn't happened to me a lot, but it's happened to me enough times I want to mention it Sometimes people stop me And they say, S say I'm on the phone or whatever. they've heard me talking. they go Soorry h st You sound exactly like J Seti. That is hilar. I'd take that as a compliment. I take it as a compliment, bro. You'd make an amazing MC. I think you got great, you got a great voice for that. leave the A mixed tapes in the f Yeah. comeome on is. So I just want to give your voice is flowers Um yeah, the shame, you know, I think the The show is about this idea of wanting to be James Bond. I wanted that I mean, who doesn't? Or if not exactly that a version of that then what I mean by that is like you want to aspire to archetype of heroism And that is about being this kind of invulnerable Alpha alpha male Whatever that means Wellough hilariously, I mean, the alpha male and a wolf pack is the animal that lets the kids beat it up the most You know, and it is like the most chill the least aggressive, right? But we have these ideas in our culture. and I guess I didn't want to. I already felt like I don't fit the mold You know, for all the reasons we've already discussed we experienced growing up. I don't want another strike against me of people somehow thinking I'm weak you know, where I'm fragile or I Whereas now I look at it as like Why actually I feel like I showed a lot of resources and strength andit mental and physical. you know, teaching yourself to walk again or lift your arms, or whatever, that takes strength. And I can say that now. the time I just saw the glass half empty of it and I thought I don't want anyone to think D weak, d broken. I'm not up to the mark. Yeah, ye And in a way, I actually think that there's some truth in that, that I think the culture has shifted a little bit more You know, I think we because of spaces like this man that you've created and other people have created, where we C talk can celebrate our vulnerabilities a bit more You know, I mean, it's talking about this right now. My body right now is kind of like going, Oh God did I just say all this? Did I do all this I also feel a bit lighter It's that thing of digging inside, like I said and it's an offering. You know, if there's someone going through something like this, is watching this If it normalizes their experience, if it makes them feel less alone, then that's Beautiful you know and I want to share that. I think it was that really. I think it was kind of my Again, it was the distance between that public and the private self and I felt that if my public self gets too close to my reality. It'll fall apart again Yeah, Well said. Yeah, no, I I really believe you sharing that, especially talking about perception in that Externally, everyone can be like,, you're winning, your care' has been amazing. You you w an Emmy, like Oscar you know, all this stuff. And it's like to actually go, Oh, wait a minute Even him, like there's there's stuff he's going through notot only is affecting them mentally, physically and that mental physical connection that I want people to make here, which I know you do too, which is this idea that A lot of what we're going through physically is coming from some sort of emotional block, mental block and in Bate you visualize that as this severed pig's head which which is this Patrick Stewart voice Svered pig's head. So yes, the critical inner voice in Bait is a severed pig's headad. It was sent to the family as a racist attack and it's about I guess how we can internalize criticism of us, internalize the prejudice. So it starts to bec come almost like his best friend. And for me for a long time, My critical inner voice was something I didn't want to lose I was worried that if I Peace with it, will turn the volume down on that too much, I'll get lazy, I'll get complacent. I remember even when we won an Oscar for our short film It's so funny. It was almost like the Oscar was looking at me going Human shit The kind of elation lasted as long as Me going there collollecting it, going backstage, going to the toilet, coming back and sitting down again By the time I sit down, in fact, I would say my critical inner voice was at an all time high when I was sat there holding that screw in my hand because it was almost like a survival mechanism. My brain was going, that voice, that part of my brain was going Put your feet up now I think you can get complacent and don't kick back. I have programmed you to strive, not to savor And so now we're going to really crack the whip It just it was just going crazy. I remember sitting there in that seat having the most aggressively critical thoughts to myself It was like out of control. In a show it's played by Sred Pigshead. I want you to know It was a moment. L moment where I was like Ased to be Jche. We ended up getting Sir Patrick Stewuart. I know. So you' not to talk to someone who's it has to be a really kind of super established actor, onene of the great, so it makes Sah my character feel insecure A you my evil twit. I mean, there's not this resemblance maybe. I was like, yeah, what it should be J. Jay should be my critical inner voice. That would be hilarious. That' so funny. No So Patrick Stewart was the right choice. It was one of those moments in the show where you're like What? it's such a surprise. Right, right yeah. Talk to me about that because I think what you just identified is the high performers and overachchievers curse where in a critic is what drives you to extraordinary success. Do you think? Uually, right? Usually from everyone I've interviewed, whether it's basketball players, whether it's tennis players, whether it's F one drivers they all say the same thing basically. The athletes who I think are playing at the levels where every inch counts in every minute matters They all have this crazy inner critic which they have to learn what to do with it because In the moment they have to believe that this point is the only thing that matters. And then as soon as they win or lose the point, they have to believe that point doesn't matter at all Wow, because that's the switch so their code switch or that and is that is like when I'm playing this point, this is the most important point in the world and as soon as the points over, whether I win or lost the point, that point's revant. You need the inner critic and the inner cheerleader. Totally. You've got you've got to basically be able to toggle between them both. Yeah, it'sious. I don't want to believe it The inner critic is the jet fuel. I want to believe that it's like one of the engines Yeah, right? But there's got to be that other engine because you know, I also feel that Yes, I feel like the in a crritic or that fear of failure possibility of shame, all these things can drive us I think they can also make us quite tense And I think our best performances come when we're in a state of flow. and that is about, like you werere saying, too tight, too loose. That is also about being kind of loose. That's about joy. It's about openness and receptivity and play and curiosity. Yeah. All those things that the critic does not really give us. And so Yeah, for me, it's like on that mixing desk of the voices in my head. You don't want to hear the voices in head There's a lot of them. You're one of them. but I'm trying to just Find that right balance and find a right moment to bring up that cheerleader versus the critic. I'm glad you said that because I would agree with you and I would encourage people to go there, especially if you're a high achiever, high performer, or even if you you have goals and you think the only way to get there is to make yourself feel bad and beat yourself up And to actually go, well That isn't the way I want to get there. There is a way of getting there that isn't there. That just seems to be the most common way that a lot of successful people have got there, but then they didn't like where they got either I think it can get you to a place, but then it will kill you. Yeah. exxactly. You know, people whip horses to like make them run faster Yeah. You're going to kill that horse somewhere You're going to really get exhausted. Yeah Yeah. That's a great vision. I'm trying find a way of something else kind of taking over. and honestly, I kind of feel like or you werere talking about before with Kids It's been a great teacher for me. on a really basic level. play The joy of that, the curiosity of it. A not being in control That's been a great teacher for me, notot least because actually I think kids you can't control them really I mean They humble you every day, right? They totally kind of, you know, is that thing where you don't raise your kids, they raise you. Yeah. So I don't know. I think that that's kind of something I'm trying to pass the bitaton from the critic to the to the cheerleader or to the child. Yeah, to the child. I like that. Yeah, there's this There's this beautiful quote from George Bernard, sure that I love what he said We don't Ping because we get old, we get old because we stop playing. And I love that. Like it just it's so good because I'm like, yeah, like that's why we feel old is because we stop playing. We stop being curious. We stop marveveling at the greatness of a Velcro shoe simplicity and that's why I was looking into it actually because that's why as we get older, I'm sure you feel this way too, timeime just flies. Every adult I talked to, they're like, yeah, God, time's just going fast. Apparently that is Proven fight. our brains subjectively experience time differently as we get older. Yes. So in terms of subjectively Bread of our life. U and how it feels to our brains is fifty percent of our life is lived between the age of zero and eight years old, which is crazy. That's like half of it because of how a day feels when you're a little kid, how expansive and huge it can feel and how quick a yeah can feel towards the tail end. So yeah. As you start to feel more and more conscious of time and its passage, like what is that doing for you? is that just meanans streamlining and fooccusing on the things you really want to or how you Managing with that At one point in my life, I listened to Steve Jobs' Stford commencement speech every day for nine months. Well, in my opion, it's the best speech ever given because he also knew he was going to die So I feel like when someone knows they're going to die, it's that death awareness meditation, right? It's a big part of the kind of Yeah Mastric tradition in Etern philosophy. Yeah, absolutely. it's like everyvery word mattered He didn't, that was't performance If you see him do it, he also just reads it Like there's no performance, there's no emphasis. there's no poet like he's not tryings just truth. Yeah, because he knows he's going to die. So it's like there's so I listen to that and There's a line in it that just goes like something like and I'll butcher it so people should listen to the real thing, but Heiterally says something like every few days, if I check in with myself and I ask myself, I look in the mirror like How am I doing what I want to do if this was my last day And if after three or four days The answer isn't This is what I should be doing, then I know I've got something to change. And I'm like I don't think we can all live like that all the time. I think there's, you know, people have responsibilities and pressures and whatever. But I think there's truth to the idea of Did you call the person that you would call if it was your last day? Did you to your partner in the way you would if it was the last time you were going to talk to them. Did you Look at your kid before you went out to work in a way that you would want them to know was how much you loved them. Like I think all those things do matter That applies even if you've got to go to a job every day and you've got to say hello to people. It's like, D did you behave with everyone in the way that you want to be remembered? I think That is important to me and I think it's streamlining. I think it's focusing I think it's all those things, but really it's more about It's less about what I do and it's more about who I am in that what is the spirit of my being I've noticed versions of that where in order to become successful, I've had to be more technical, I've had to be more strategic, I've had to be more organized, I've had to be wh whatever the words are And then I go, I'm just a guy who loves the heart. Like that's why I'm at the core of like, I'm just a guy who just wants to like love and be love. Like that's who I am at my essence. And who are the people who can take me back to that in this crazy world where I have to be all these other versions of myself in order to do the thing. People always say like, what's your favorite place? And I'm like, I'm never looking for my favorite place. I'm looking for my favorite people Because as long as I'm with my favorite people, it doesn't matter where I am andah' looking for people actively. Always ye, that taking me back to that place within my heart and can do it quicker, more beautifully, more gracefully, more elegantly and I find I'm Some of them are old friends that I've had for twenty, twenty five years. Yeah yeah. and some of them the new people that I just met last year. peoplee who can make you more yourself. Yeah. ye. Yeah. people who can make you forget yourself People who go beyond the elements of you Yeah, yeah are like the person who's not getting you to play up to your avatar or your, you know, whatever. And so I'm looking I'm always looking to not collectors and there's, I don't need a million of those people. You got to find a few people that Yeah just drop in. yourour nervous system calms down You know, Yeah the active mind switches so important so important. It's interesting you say that because like, you know, we're in LA right now and I had a very kind of like You're making me think about this because I had this narrative where I was like I don't like any And you actually makeaking me think about this is like, there are period of time where I have a door delay The thing that was surprised to me now is just before coming here I was like, o I got to go to LA man. Being from London, like walking you know and like driving and everything spread out. and I was like, you don't see anyone and all these kind of cliched criticisms, right And yet I woking out today in L.A Isolutely loving it is Um my wife kid and with family You know, family has come to visit The house is full And suddenly like being back as a kid surrounded by clapping aries or whatever, you know what mean? it just feels like that environment. It feels like home Absolutely, it's the people, man. It's the people that made the place one hundred percent. and yeah, I was kind of confronted with that realization this morning. I was like, oh yeah, I've justipped into this kind of lazy narrative. It's like That's know what it's about. Yeah. and the time piece too, that you brought up, that I think is a really valuable thing, It's like how much can I not try and fill time And how much can I not try and be distracted? I find it hard like kind of doing nothing. Yeah. somethingomet that is starting to help is reading H I'm very poorly read. No, I don't believe that. really? Yeah, I kind of through your work. I would like I pick up a lot of things in like I listen to a lot of music, I listen to podcasts, I watch talks, I go to talks, I talk to people But I had like growing up crazy DHD And I'd get into a lot of trouble at school. Now I look back, I'm like, oh, of course that's what that was. And you know there's loads of different ways in which that manifests. So sitting down to read a book was like torture was historically again, the narrative, Oh, I don't read, I can't read. Recently, particularly being married to a novelist, that was like This is a bit of a deal breaker. You need to be reading book at least read my book That is the thing that is allowing me to like sit and kind of nothing again, it's forgetting myself. You know what I mean? But I otherwise struggle with it. I can very easily fill time, create a new idea, now let's progress it. What if we do that? What if and I'm sure I don't know, how do you manage that? Is that something that you're also Navig had to set rules around it because I'm like that as well. I feel like I'm a creative brain. I like I like building stuff. I like playing with stuff, but I had to start just building real parameters around that where And what do you mean? like as then you don't work after six PM? Yeah Yeahah, it's like I won't think about work or be on my phone after six PM because to me, that rest and renewal is where the best ideas come out. Talking about flow state I can't invent flow, I can't engineer it, I can't manufacture it. And so for it to exist, I need to be in this lucid state where saidid something. That randomly allowed for me to be inspired at eight PM and it came up and that's fine. But I don't need to act on it immediately. I just need to let it breathe and let it sit. Letting it sit, best ideas come on the toilet see, bro shower actually we started taking our phones to the toilets. The toilets now, not the creative meecca used to be, but the shower man. Sher is always where you go. Yeah, and actually just a give Eliiot Fowers, driving has been great for me. I agree in that sense. when you're just going on these long drives and You allow the thing to bubble up. David Lynch talk about the fish, right? These fish that would just swim to the surface sometimes if you could just allow the water to be still enough. Hey everyone, it's Cal Penn, host of EarsSay, The Audible and IHart Audiobook Club This week on the podcast, I'm sitting down with Lily Chu, the author of the Audible original romantic comedy Just Kiss Already. 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Go to pinkCherry dot com and use promo code Chelsea to save up to eighty percent sitewide. becausecause life is hard, feeling good shouldn't be PinkCerry. com because everyone deserves pleasure I want to do a set of questions for you that we've got that speak about everything we've been talking about, but we're going to do them as not rapid fire, but we're going to do them as Quicker fire. Yeah, quick f Yeahah not line rambly fire. No't no, no, no, you can give longer answers, but I want to kind of get some out from you. So what's the hardest mask you've had to take off I think it was probably around My health. Yeahah You know, kind of letting people into that, even it was happening, I was trying to keep people at a distance want people to see me like that. Yeah. I even if I thought I was like, if I might die then I don't want people to remember me like this almost, you know. So I think it was that I think it was when I was at my most vulnerable letting people in on what was happening and starting to slowly share that What part of you still feels like it doesn't belong different parts of me in every place that I go to That's interesting. Yeah. And I think a lot of people feel like that a lot of creative people feel like that. I've learned to embrace that actually. I actually feel like having a slight outsider's perspective is Kind of fun. Yeah. It allows me to like enjoy things at a distance as well But yeah, I mean, all the time, I mean, you know, I remember going to meet the queen and accidentally trying to fist bump her. A that's so good It was like a British film industry reception everyone lines up. She put her hand out like this from the angle that I was at. I thought she was going like this. I went like this, the security went like this. anded up'm just going like this. You know, it was super we Yeah, a ring. So I don't know, man. like there there's all these kind of moments of feeling like a fish out of water Now I actually kind of like Joy. being like, where am I? What is this You know, something you can laugh about later. Yeah, It's a better story too. I think so Yeah, if you felt totally comfortable everyhere you went then you're probably not in the right place. David Bowie says this thing of is when you can't feel the bottom of the swimming pool is you know you're in the right place, you know, slightly out of depth working it out. That's beautiful. I love that. That's one of the reasons why I've I actually like living in LA because I'm reminded of my insignificance daily because it's so big. because it's so big and I go to an event and I'm the least important person in the room And I love it because onlyn conversation I'll have is a really meaningful one because the only person who's aware of me is someone who's connected to the kind of work I do. Wow. And then that allows me to asking the glory of the raarity of that human and the interaction we just had. so I tried to belong to one person. than belong to a room or a place or a space, because belonging to one person is kind of all we're looking for anyway. It's like when you meet one person and you go God we even like, you know, we're from the same area, like, you know, we know the same people, like to me in a busy big room is like pure joy that I know even Plus and winning an award on stage as you've rightly just said, isn't even feeling. Yeah. And so it's not being celebrated that gives us joy. It's not belonging to a whole room that gives us joy. It connection. There just one person that looks at you and you go We're from the same place. We believe in the same things. We care about wh whatever that may be. or I had a really good debate with someone that engaged me in a really curious way and we don't agree. It can be so overwhelming in those rooms, can't it where like you're chatting to people and you feel everyone's like looking over your shoulders to see if there's someone else to talk to. and it's like Pinball.'s like social pinball, but finding a center in those rooms, finding a kind of A rooted place to drop into That's the way to do. Yeah. I always say to God, I'm like, I just want to meet the one person you want me to meet today. And that's how I walk into a room. I love that. And I always meet that person. And it's always like becomes a friendship or we had a great conversation and we don't talk ever again And it's just like, yeah, God, like I'm here for you You just introduce me to the one person and you want to introduce me to beul. And it yeah, that kind of carries me so. This one's a good one. so u When was the last time you tried to people, please? This is gonna sound like a small thing. clothes. Matter to me a lot. Me too, man. I grew up in a Wley market where they sold all the fake designer clothes So it was all about that We'd go we'd buy some and we'd sell them and then we'd go, you know and try and buy some real ones. And I know we were just kind of obsessed with it, you know As teenagers trying to wear the mask or have it the costume or find worth, whatever it is, and I see it more as a kind of expression to myself. I think recently I was going to do a talk show or something And I said I shouldn' wear the outfit. That's to me in a weird way.. I was like that's I need to meet the audience where they're at. Yeah Maybe they haven't seen a show like this or have related to someone like me from my background doing something maybe taring like, you know ' Middle America or something, I't know Try to dilute down. what I would wear and who I would be when I was wearing thing I was like Who the hell is this? am What am I doing? And I took it off. but I remember and I remember actually in that moment being quite surprised, I was like, oh, that's still that's still a really strong instinct,t it? Yeah To do that, to edit and censor myself in that way. Sounds like a small thing, but do you think though you only get away with being able to make that choice when you're successful? I think chicken and egg, I think the people who become the most successful, the people who most unapologetically themselves. I love that. Well, a great answer. becausecause the specificity and the honesty and the authenticity is what people are attracted to It just feels real, you know? That's the narrative again we tell ourselves Oh, when when I'm successful, then I'll be myself. When people saycept me, I'll be me If you If be you then people accept you. Yeah, so well said Lan, so well said. I feel like Before we go to the final five, which is our rapidifier, I feel like we have to give a bunch of shout out to places in North and Northwest London. that we grew around because we got to go niche We were talking about this before. We were like some de. We could have done a whole interview about North Northwest London And no one else would have got us apart from our hometown, which we love. So this is for the fifteen people It know exactly what we're talking about. I'm gonna to start with one I said to earlier, Keabish. Kabish Kab on heing rooad. Yeah. Kababish is literally a place that I shout out on my last rap song. You know what? when I said that to you earlier, I didn't even know that. I just did a track called We good with Cassid' on the bait soundtrack actually. I nameam check Kababish specifically and the amount of people from my past who reached out and texted me and bro ab Remember those days when we used to go Kbabish Garlic, mayo. my mouth is watering as I'm tiling. It's actually the nan. It's the freshness of the nan Ch Kababish eating road. Yeah. Okay. yeah, that's a good one. What about Were you St. Anne' or Stain. George's? These are two shopping malls in Harrow in Northwest London, right Whichever one the girl I was dating wanted to go to I was flexible. ye, was Whever. R right, so that's a good one. Yeah, that's a good one. I was actually saying again to shout out this area in London. says Northwest London, we have all the best Jays We have Jay Swan Jay Pooool and Jay Shay. And it is the Holy Trinity, man. It's the Holy Brown Trinity. And then we have risen at Patel. Yes we're also there holding N a for Rayers Lane, Sadby Town. So but it's interesting. It's this kind of little pocket corner of the world There's super multicultural, you know, because of that, I think it's like a real creative hotbed and you get some interesting stuff happening there. Yeah. Anthony Joshua. Exactly's fromfordatford AJ. Yeah. Exactly. Sitting down with you is like is sitting down with an old friend. like it feels that way.ame. The schools you went to, the people you grew up around friendriends and family, but Riz, you've been amazing to talk to today, honestly. This is an absolute honor. This been beyond my expectations to get your openness, your honesty of vulnerability. The show Bait is a winner already. Can't wait for more people to watch it. I can't wait for you. I mean I know you've got a digger coming out this year.'ve You know, Hamlet that's out already. like it's I feel like, you know, just keeps becoming more and more your year for actually putting out real expressionother the trh. I'mci's want to receive it. There there we go. Yeah, yeah yeah. Thank you you. But Riz we end every interview with the final five. These questions have to be answered in one sentence maximum. Oh God, here we go. So Riz, these are your final five brought to you by State Farm. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? Idris Slbber once said to me, Categorize yourself not Explain. I'd hit a glass ceiling in my career in the UK. He was like, you should go to America. I'm like, bro, what theyre gonna do a guy like me over there You don't do nothing. I'm this, they don't have that That I'm obvious anyway Categorize yourself not, my friend And actually when you do that, you're doing other people's work For them It's about It' the limitations people place on you how we internalize them and then we perpetuate that narrative and going I'm this, this is my nameane. I'm this Flayby. so many different sides to who you are I told him that recently and he was like, I was like, bro, do you remember that conversation? He was like nah, no memory of that. I was like, great, thanks, bro.. But it's those throwaway moments, right when people kind of like see you differently to how used to be seen. Did you feel that? likeike was that hard? I know the representation conversations over playayed. I know those conversations have happened of just like making it as a brown man in Hollywood, you've you've done that But what is the reality of that? Be We say that, and then you're like, well, wait a minute actually No, I haven't done that. because I think that there's a reality that for women, for people of color, for people who are differently abled, there is a lot more resistance I definitely do feel like sometimes after to work, you know Twice as hard to get half as far But I'm also kind of starting to feel like that is gives my journey more meaning. To me, but I know for a fact also for many others You know Yeah. And actually, I think more and more friction is what gives life its meaning You know, you order a meino on deliveru. It does not taste the same as you've taken that time to cook that for yourself shout at deu. I'm not saying that I don't do that, but I'm just kind of like I just feel like It's what's given my journey. It's meaning for me and I know for others So I wouldn't I wouldn't change it. I think for a long time, I'd say, I wish I could swap that out. I wish I could make that different, but I don't feel that way anymore. What advice would you give to someone who is a person of color differently abled How is a woman, a gender that may have any of these experiences What would you say to them? Because I think the bitterness, the pain, the rejection real is real. real. It's justified. It's not imagined. I don't want to gaslight anyone who's going through that It's hard. I would say, you know, my experience iss like the gift and the curse are usually the same thing Please You losing your voice? has made you so conscious of what you're communicating and how and the words you're choosing There's so many examples I can think of in my own journey where the thing that I thought was blocking me if I just lean into it It could unlock something. And I would say to all of those people The thing about you is different. is an obstacle in certain ways, but it's also the key. And I would say lean into the specificity of your experience of who you are You know, I went to Oxford University and felt very out of place there on many different levels. My experience there had taught me something which is actually because I was thinking about quitting after the first month. I was like, what the hell am I doing here kind of had a mental health kind of