Legends and the Future of Soccer

Just step out of your home, go into the streets and enjoy this thing. Because nothing like the World Cup brings people from all over, whether it's within the United States and the incredible diaspora, you've got the there, all fans who who will be traveling there, when they get together, this is a magical thing. Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. The U.S. is just days away from hosting the equivalent of 78 Super Bowls in the span of a month. I'm talking, of course, about the FIFA World Cup. The U.S. is co-hosting alongside Mexico and Canada. It's the world's largest sporting event, and this year's is the biggest in history with 48 teams playing more than 100 games across three countries. It's also arguably the most controversial. And President Trump, the winner of FIFA's cynical Peace Prize, is all but guaranteed. I've got three experts here to talk about the drama around this year's World Cup. Rachel Bachman is a senior sports reporter at the Wall Street Journal, where she's been covering the lead up to this year's tournament Will Leach is a contributing editor at New York Magazine and the founder of the sports blog, Dead Spin. And Tarek Panja is a global correspondent at the New York Times with a focus on where money, geopolitics, and crime intersect. I think it's really important as a business story. I think FIFA has been one of the more appalling international organizations, especially giving Trump that peace prize, but the corruption, the ticket prices, everything else has sort of been riveting. And I'm really interested why fans who are at the heart of this, especially fans that don't have the means that more wealthy people have, can't just go and enjoy this stuff in the way they should. All right, let's get into our conversation. Our expert question comes from my pivot co-hosts and noted soccer fan. He never stops talking about it, Scott Galloway. Don't go anywhere. When it comes to home improvement, even the most experienced DIYer has a limit. I'm not going to come in here with the blowtorch and get it hot and solder and put the copper pipes to copper. I'm not doing it. I call it very nice man to handle it . When to call the experts and when to do it yourself. That's this week on explain ItToMe. Find new episodes Sundays wherever you get your podcasts . Megan Rapino here. This week is our last regular episode of A Touch More before I kick off a limited series: A Touch More, The Beautiful Game, a special series for the World Cup featuring in-depth interviews with some of soccer's biggest stars. But for this week, we are closing out the era with a special compilation episode featuring our absolute favorite moments and themes from our last 90 episodes of A Touchmore. Check out the latest episode of A Touchmore wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube . Lyme disease is one of the fastest growing threats to human health around the world. It's often difficult to diagnose. It may be difficult to treat, and now we have a vaccine that is safe and effective in preventing it. That is, we had a vaccine back in the early 2000s. But then the Lyme vaccine became a cautionary tale. That's this week on Unexplainable, wherever you get your podcasts. Rachel, Will, and Tarek, thanks for coming on on. Great to be here. Thank you for having us. Thank you for having me. So American soccer has come a long way since it last hosted a World Cup in 1994, it's a very long time ago. But for the uninitiated or uninterested, why is the World Cup a great news story from a cultural, geopolitical, and business point of view? Rachel, then Will, and then Tarek? One of the most interesting things is the World Cup is the biggest event in you know, the headquartered country is the US this year. And it's not the number one sport in the US, but it is the number one sport in the rest of the world. So that alone makes it interesting. Well, yeah, and you know, this is a sport that's watched everywhere, right? Like there's nothing niche about so if anything, the only place it's niche is here in a lot of ways. If you watch this in the fjords of Norway or the you know the deserts of Egypt, really across the world, every eye is going to be on this event no matter what your political circumstances or your demographics or everything. Everyone is always watching the world guy. All right, Tarek? Nothing is as big as this thing. I was just watching a video of Kerala in India and there's a 50 meter banner for the Argentinian national team that's been created there and thousands of people getting to work. Just a little glimpse of how big this thing is. And I know where you guys are sitting there in the United States of America, you think the Olympics is big. It has nothing on this. The emotion, the passion, and just the virality of this is gonna be at a different level to Trevor Burrus, there's always controversy around FIFA and the World Cup. And that was especially true the last two tournaments, hosted by Russia and Qatar. Tarek, what's different about the build-up and critic isms this time? Because here they are again? Difference is this is the United States hosting ostensibly a democracy, so different to Qatar and slightly different to Russia. But there's been a lot of controversy here . We have issues related to um the ICE actions in in the US and and the people they've been targeting. A lot of those people will be soccer fans, will be football fans as we call them here. They'll be coming from all over the world, or be in the United States, hoping to go to games. I remember last summer the US hosted the Club World Cup and there were Brazilian teams there, for example. And I talked to some fans of Flamengo, which is Brazil's most popular team, who were living in Boston. Now they were gonna go in convoy to watch the games um last summer. And at the last minute they thought, hang on, this might not be a good idea. We don't want to be so visible driving in this big convoy of Brazilians to this soccer match. Right. And that that tells you that's one of the controversies. I'm sure the others will get into them. Of course, Iran is coming to theld Wor Cup, at least we think they are. This is the first World Cup in history where a host is at war with one of the participants right now. So we've got the issues over visas and not just for Iran, but for for other nations. I'm hearing other nations are struggling to get their visas in time for the World Cup. That's another one. And I'm sure the guys can talk about ticket pricing and sundry other issues related to this World Cup. So fans, of course are, complaining around the world about the cost of tickets. Rachel, for the first time ever, FIFA is using demand-driven or dynamic ticket pricing. The result is even nosebleed seats for some early games cost more than $1,000 . That's many times more expensive than previous World Cups. How do we know about how FIFA decided on these record high prices? What do we know about it? Aaron Ross Powell We know very little. And that's part of the mystery of fans and part of fans' frustration, right? So one of the distinctive qualities of this World Cup is that FIFA didn't issue a list of ticket prices. It just simply started dropping them on its website in these drips and drabs. And when fans, if they were lucky enough to gain access at early times on that website, um, they didn't know if how many tickets would be left. They didn't know if if that was all what they were looking at was going to be all for the entire tournament or if there would be future tickets dropped. They didn't know if the prices would rise or fall. So fans have expressed a lot of frustration about just the mystery surrounding even the sales process of these tickets. Now you wrote that FIFA is quote leveraging the potent cocktail of American World Cup to pack its war chest with money. Talk about who controls this organization, because we're talking about a projected eleven billion dollars in revenue for what is a notoriously corrupt organization. And of course the president, FIFA's president, called the U.S. the most developed entertainment market in the world and said ticket prices had to be priced accordingly, meaning we can take your money, I assume that's a version of that. I mean ostensibly who controls FIFA is the 2 11 member federations, that, you know, the countries around the world who belong to FIFA. But effectively it's the FIFA council headed by Gianni Infantino, the president of FIFA. So he and a handful of top FIFA leaders really make most of the decis ions. The war chests they're packing, as I as I mentioned, will eventually be spread out among many of those nations. And that's one of the reasons why Infantino has enjoyed a lot of support during his administration because, he's increased that amount of money that he's been spreading around the globe. And uh that's one of the opportunities he sees, among others, is the ability to leverage the US's incredible buying power, which is uh far outstrips what it was even in ninety four to um increase those disbursements around the world even further. So it's a money grab essentially. Now Tarek FIFA has also set up its own ticket resale market where it gets thirty percent cut on all transactions. Other countries have very strict laws about reselling tickets, especially in Europe. The US does not. That's why you're seeing million dollar price tags for tickets the final game, for example. So how is FIFA's secondary market exacerbating frustration from fans. This thing's remarkable. I think the word cash grab was used. And FIFA's justification for this is because, as you said, uh secondary markets are not only legal but promoted and popular in the United States. They are in Mexico, for example, you can't do this. So tickets were taken off the secondary market for games in Mexico because Mexico has strict laws, one of the co-hosts. Now FIFA is saying, Well, look, if this is happening, why should people outside of the game be making all of this money? We will do it. But they've done it and they've done it on stero ids because of the 15% charge from this seller, 15% from the buyer, 30% of those ticket fees will be going to FIFA. This non-profit organization in Switzerland. Now the the kind of rapaciousness, this need for all of this money, Rachel has described how FIFA works, I guess, that they've got these 211 members. I would argue that FIFA has too much money already. It doesn't know what to do with it. It made seven and a half billion from the last cycle with Qatar. And it's dispersing this money, not on a needs basis, the same amount to every country, whether you're Brazil, whether you're San Marino, whether you're the Democratic Republic of Congo, you get this same amount of money and every four years, hey, there's an election, who are you gonna vote for? Th this is not for the benefit of soccer. Gianni Fantino and FIFA say ninety percent of this money goes into football and into soccer. But is it going to soccer in the right way or is this just a way of sort of feathering the nests of of football associations and and I guess other fat cats. And just one final point. In terms of the power, Rachel mentioned the FIFA Council. This is a completely toothless body. It meets three or four times a year, often not in person, maybe a zoom meeting. Each of those members gets a minimum of two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year just to show up at this virtual meeting or in person meeting. Nothing is really discussed in any meaningful way. Decisions have already been taken by the most powerful people, probably a handful of three, five men outside of this with Gianni and Fantino and the regional soccer heads. And that is how soccer works. And then the show rolls on. So Will, uh FIFA is right that Americans are used to big markups to resale tickets and dynamic pricing for live events. We also see dynamic pricing for airline tickets, ride sharing prices, hotel rooms, even grocery stores. This seems like a tipping point in some way. According to the athletic, there are still thousands of tickets for sale. The U.S. opener against Paraguay. If the market isn't bearing the higher ticket prices, then why are prices so high? And I'd love you to compare them to games in Canada and Mexico, for example. Aaron Powell Yeah. One of the interesting things about this too is you know FIFA is also controlling the supply of these tickets. And so I'm based out of Athens, Georgia, so I'm covering the games in Atlanta. There is a game at like 2:30 in the afternoon on a Wednesday that has a 4 50 minimum pricing. I feel comfortable saying that is not the market deciding that price. And if you even look at a lot of these resale sites, there are not actually that many tickets even available. There are big open swaths of the stadium where you couldn't buy tickets if you wanted to. That makes a lot of people think then FIFA's still artificially not unleashing these tickets, not putting out a lot of these tickets to make it look like there is this massive demand. The problem is is you can try that for a while. Eventually they're not going to let these tickets the the one theoretically anyway, we're not actually let these venues be empty. That's why when people keep asking me that the number one question people ask me about about the World Cup is seriously, why is this so expensive? I really just wanna say, just wait. Wait, they're officially quashing spaces so that it seems like there's more space. And and part of the reason they can do this too is because you know this is not like the NFL has to come back next year. Baseball has to come back next year, the NBA has to come back next year. FIFA is showing up and they're like, they're getting their money and they're getting out. And I think that, you know, as Rachel kind of spoke about before, a lot of this is FIFA. This has been the world cup they've been waiting for. They've been waiting to get this US market. They've been waiting to get everything they can out of this. They are going to milk every single penny out of this that they can because what they're not worried about, oh well, I hope the US soccer fans don't get angry at us and don't buy tickets in four years , they're gonna be all all on to the next thing. And I think I think that that's the strategy. Yeah. New Jersey and New York have subpoenaed FIFA over the prices, whether it misled fans about ticketing categories. By the way, California is also looking into the ticketing schemes and European fans have lodged a formal complaint in Brussels. Rachel, we're just a few days from the kickoff. Could these have any impact on the tournament, on the prices and FIFA more broadly? Well, I think in the short term on, the tournament, no. I don't think anything's gonna happen before the tournament. On the prices, probably no either. I mean, this it's quite possible there might be some settlement over the long term. And in terms of FIFA's behavior, you know, they claim that they've sold 90% of the roughly six million tickets available, which, you know, at the prices they're offering them sounds pretty good, if that is the case. So I don't see them, you know, short of some massive injunction. Uh and especially since as Will pointed out, they're not coming back here anytime soon. I don't see them necessarily altering their behavior . We'll be back in a minute . This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar. IQ Bar Protein Bars, IQ Mix, Hydration Mixes, and IQ Joe Mushroom Coffees are delicious, low sugar, brain and body fuel you need to win your day. Whether you prefer bar, a drink, or something in between, you'll find an IQ Bar product that will help meet your nutrition needs. Want to try for yourself? Their ultimate sampler pack is a great way to try all IQ bar products and flavors. You get up to nine IQ bars, eight IQ mixedtic sks, and four IQ Joe sticks. My personal favorite is one I just ate. 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We're excited to partner with FODZIM and offer you 30% off your first order when you go to ICANNETAGEN.com/slash Kara. That's ICANNEatAGAN.com slash Kara for 30% off your first order . Finally, you can enjoy your favorite foods without the pain. Just go to ICANNEatagain.com slash Kara . So Terek, given the steep price of entry for even some of the It's important because what the World Cup is is not just what happens on the field. It is the backdrop. It's the the pageantry of a World Cup game with these supporters who are coming from wherever they come from all over the world. Particularly I found recently tournaments have been enlivened by the presence of South American fans, for example. Argentines in Qatar were magical. That World Cup obviously had a real tough backdrop to it with the build-up. We don't need to get into all of the various issues with Qatar. Europe ans stayed away in ways that they didn't in Russia four years ear lier, and there was a worry that the atmosphere would suffer. And then here come the Argentines, thousands upon thousands of these people. Their team made it to the final and won it. And the sound of Argentines all over Doha is still ringing in my ears. Uh in fact, where they were staying in Doha, they stayed in this um migrant worker residential zone. Uh I think it was called Al Wacra outside of Doha . And they are so fondly remembered there that the neighborhood has been renamed Argentine Neighborhood. So that's what it's still called. Oh wow. You also profiled Argentinian fans who are taking on uh thousands of dollars in debt to come to the US. So when you spoke to them, some still hadn't bought their tickets yet. They're hoping to find some when they get there. What does it say not only about the true cost for international fans, but also the depth of passion that FIFA is able to monetize? Yeah, there's a sense that they're they're kind of passion and they're almost um obsess ion with this thing is being abused by FIFA. One of the things that separate this from, say, hotels and airlines is FIFA is a monopolist. There's no other official seller ofld Wor Cup tickets. It's this or nothing. And and and and these people , they feel like their protagonists, their team needs them in the stadium to do well. They come as a package deal. Messi on the field and his friends and us on the sidelines . And I couldn't believe some of the things people are doing. Like you know, maxing out as many credit cards as possible , borrowing from friends, neighbors, the guys holding a raffle. A woman was talking about selling her car . Like live for today, live for this World Cup. It happens every four years. We live in a topsy turvy country where everything is possible anyway economically. Let's just try and do this because guess what? This is one of the things that we are known for. This is the one of the things that Argentina is known positively for around the world. And we got to go and represent. And there were some people who were saying, look, even if I don't get a ticket, I need to be near there. I need to be with my people. And and then that's part of it as well the journey. Well one of the things I don't feel like we're gonna name something in Argentine neighborhood in this country for right now will for international travelers a lot of confusion about as you said visa requirements and steep fees imposed by the Trump administration. Of course, ICE agents will be at stadiums. DHS is offering to send agents to help local police departments with security, but it's denied plans for major sweeps. How real is that fear though? Aaron Powell I think it's kind of undeniable. speaks to among one of the we we haven't even gotten to the issues of how the United States is currently seen around the world right now it's going to be hosting the World Cup. But I mean this is at the center of it, right? The idea of sure the administration says that ICE will just be helping out and they won't be actually doing enforcement. I I would not blame anyone for perhaps being a having a touch of skepticism. I think about uh that along with a lot of other things. But also even if they don't, the fact that that is something that is at the centerpiece of any world traveler that would want to come to the games that were supposed to like this. Was the World Cup that was supposed to be the one that went smoothly, right? There was so much worry about Qatar, there was so much worry about Russia. This was supposed to be the US, not just like taking its place. Yeah, we weren't supposed to be the problematic country. Yes, and also this was we talked about nineteen ninety four earlier, this was supposed to be the culmination of the American soccer moment. Like this was something that they've been building for such a long time. You remember the MLS started after the 9-4 World Cup. And so a lot of that was all based in this notion that, you know, this was supposed to be one of the best generations of the U US men's team. This is supposed to all be building up for this culmination moment and the U.S. is um I think perceived as per perhaps not at its best right now. No, we're not the best of world citizens. So Rachel, speaking of that, a recent survey found that 80% of hotels in host cities are not seeing the bookings they for Trump and his policies are the big reason why. Cities and local businesses have been promised a windfall from global tourism during the World Cup. And if it doesn't materialize, what are the knock-on effects? Aaron Powell Well, one of the immediate knock-on effects is a lot of the host cities are not going to turn a profit or at least pay for their expenses, which are pretty considerable . One of the reasons why you're seeing, for instance, in Boston and in New York, these really high train costs that have made up on these, you know, $150 , $100 for um train rides that usually cost, you know, 12 or 13 bucks. Is because the host cities are trying to recoup whatever money they can. So that's sort of the immediate knock-on effect. And longer term, of course, you know, there's the tourism effect, right? I mean, America is usually a very attractive place to visit. It's pretty unwieldy to visit, but this certainly had the promise of something that had a pretty rosy glow to it. But given the backdrop, I think it's fair to say that that glow hasn't quite materialized. Sometimes when the game start, it changes. But um, you know, I spoke with one fan in Amsterdam who had been to a couple previous World Cups, and he said, you know, I'm gonna watch in the street, put a TV out, and have my neighbors come and watch because I just don't want to go to the Aaron Powell So the do you sense is the cost or is it Trump? Aaron Powell I think it's a variety of factors. I mean I think the number one reason is the cost. Because if people are hardcore enough soccer fans and they really want to come here, I I think most people will try to make it. Um but certainly, you know, Trump is not terribly popular in Europe. And um and the f and the Dutch fan I talked to said that was his line in the sand. He didn't want to go to an event on American soil given the Aaron Powell So the U.S. is also in the middle of a war with Iran, as you noted. The Iran men's team is set to play as three group stage games in the U.S. As of our taping late Wednesday. No one with the team has been issued U.S. visas that reported they may get them Friday. Their training base was also moved to Mexico. How complicated do you think this is going to get? It's extremely complicated. I was with the Iranian team last week in Turkey where they've been at training camp. And my my s overwhelming sense was I was feeling very sorry for these players. So the World Cup happens every four years. It is such the high point of of their lives. And this fog of uncertainty will remain over their presence until the ball is kicked in that first game against New Zealand for them in Los Angeles. So you you mentioned they're now in going to go to Mexico, they're going to Tijuana were. They supposed to be in um Tucson in Arizona where they were gonna train. Logistically, it's closer to LA and but that is across the border. They almost like have a black mark against them. There's forty-eight teams at the World Cup. But this one is going to have to go through all of these hurdles. Meanwhile, we're having so many comments both from American officials and Iranian officials that are contradictory, like the same guy who says we won't be coming, then we'll say, Well, of course, FIFA will have to create the conditions because we qualified on merit. We should be playing. This is FIFA's competition, not the US's competition. Now the next stage as you said there is these visa issues. Uh they need to be issued. They've they've what I understand is it's not player by player. They've applied as a group. They'll get these visas as a as a a squad of players, both for Mexico, multiple entry for Mexico and the US because of the nature of the tournament and their tournament. And yeah, it's just it's just it just feels very much a dampener, right? On for them, their people. We saw some players and staff of the Iranian women's soccer team apply to defect to Australia during this year's women's Asia Cup. Most of them withdrew those applications but two players chose to remain. Could that happen here? Of course it could. Of course it could happen because what what we're talking about with the the women in Australia was they were overseas at an international soccer tournament and And it happened straight after the war, and there was in their case, it was about how they behaved during the national anthem. I think they didn't sing the national anthem. There was there was um uproar on on social media in Iran and I think there were there were people in Australia human rights groups etc who were who were talking to them and that led to a group of them deciding to stay back and apply for asylum. And that number then was reduced to I think maybe only two or three by the end of it. Some decided to go back. Now, can you imagine the pressure on these people? If yes, you're going to claim asylum, you're overseas, but guess what? Most of your family is still in Iran. Right, exactly. Right. There's huge pressures on these people. And and to try and almost make them political figures, I can understand exactly why they would be seen that way because they're wearing the shirt. They're singing they are the symbol of this country at war with the United States in the biggest event in the world. Right. This is hard. Although I suspect a lot of Americans are not as angry as Iran as Trump is. But so Will, you had a piece in New York magazine how conversations around politics and sports are about to get a lot louder. This will be a Trump World Cup. He will put himself at the center of it. What does it mean for the average American athlete to have to navigate U.S. politics on the world stage and also casual fans who just want to root for their home team? Yeah, I actually think we got a pretty good example of this with the hockey team actually in the Olympics or the idea of not it was I think it there was a lot about uh Cash Patel you know pounding his drinks uh his beers in there but the thing that actually I think hit a lot of people even harder was when Trump called in and essentially insulted the women's team and kind of mocked the women's team in this moment where instantly, you know, one of the things that was really interesting is, you know, think about these American hockey players. They had not won gold medal since the famous miracle on ice team. You'd have to imagine all of them like, oh my gosh, we won the gold medal. We are going to never have to buy a drink in this country again. And a week later, people were like barely cheering for them on Saturday Night Live. Right. And it became this instantly polarizing thing. And what's interesting too is this is a casual fan event. Like certainly the hardcore fans, I love soccer. Everybody here on this panel we're all into soccer. We're really into it. But like like the Olympics, the World Cup is kind of for casuals, right? That that's part of the fun of this is you can kind of come in, people can kind of pay attention, really, really get into it, and then move on. The Olympics are are similar in this way. And we saw that with the hockey team. I think there were there were frankly a lot of new hockey fans minted from heated rivalry and then came over to go watch uh the men's team got really excited and then like learned, oh no, that they're not actually fictional characters from this show that I like. They actually have their own opinions and they're gonna react differently in these situations. That kind of test that I don't wouldn't say the hockey team failed, but it was an impossible one to pass, I would say, is the sort of thing that is undeniably something you're going to see with members of this US team if they now that's if they advance of you've got to keep cash patel out of the room is really what has to happen. Well I I feel pretty confident that Cash Patel's probably not watching it a lot He's more of a hockey guy. I think he's more pedamoris. Is there beer there? He'll be there. Um Rachel he'll be there. Um all of this raises obviously a big question about security around the stadiums. The US is hosting equivalent of seventy eight Super Bowls in about a month How prepared is the U.S. to protect fans and teams at these games at this moment? Well, this is part of the federal responsibility of hosting the tournament. And you know, the proof is when the games start, right? An example of this was in 2024, the the Cope America soccer tournament, where um some fans really overran the stadium in Miami, one of the stadiums that also also will host World Cup games, that absolutely cannot happen anything like that this time because the stakes are even higher. And, you know, as was the case with that match, there might be situations where there are, you know, thousands of fans that don't have tickets to the game, but are just caught up in the moment and you know, celebrating. And I don't know that we'll really know what the prep is like until one of these huge group stage games happens, like like for instance, Portugal, Colombia, which is also actually at that stadium in Miami. Um, that's a group stage game that that I wrote about that has uh uh now a get-in resale ticket price of starting at twenty five hundred dollars. That's not FIFA's fault, that's purely demand driven. Um but you know, a a game like that will be an early test of just how ready the um US security apparatus is. And then they have the Scots rolling in, of course, against Brazil. So again that stadium is gonna get a lot of lot of tests. Uh just on this though, I would say that tournament in twenty twenty four that was not a FIFA tournament, FIFA for for you know all the all the criticism. One thing it's very good at is organiz ing World Cups. It's got a lot of history in doing this. Uh I've always said you can host this tournament on the moon. They just pack up, they've got a book, the World Cup, it works like this. The the security searches, the the perimeter, all all of this. That game, and it was remarkable. There were people clambering into the stadium, cla climbing through air conditioning vents to try and get into that stadium. I I I just don't think however much the desire to get into this stadium is, any of these guys will get anywhere near a FIFA World Cup Stadium in the US, Miami included. But I guess we're gonna have to see that . We'll be back in a minute. Hi, I'm Maria Sharipova, host of the Pretty Tough Podcast. Each episode I sit down with high achieving women to discuss the pursuit of excellence without apology. This week, model sports illustrated cover girl and entrepreneur Ashley Graham talks about the time she almost quit. I called my mom and I said, Mom, I just I'm not gonna do this anymore. And she told me, no, you are going to stick this out. Your body is going to change someone's life. Every decade you're gonna go through something different. So be really happy with who you are right now because things change. Check out Pretty Tough, new episodes on Wednesdays. You can watch it on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app . Support for this show comes from Teleport. 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But the biggest fight may not be between Democrats and Republicans, but over the congressional maps itself. Gerrymandering is not a good thing. We don't like it. And then all of a sudden we're going out and telling people, vote for this. So I'm in Ashland, Virginia, a small town just outside of Richmond, which calls itself the center of the universe. And that checks out because it's the center of the political universe, at least when it comes to the 2026 midterms. That's because Ashland sits in Virginia's first congressional district, which is one of only about 3 5 or so that are actually competitive. That makes Virginia particularly important when it comes to the question of gerrymandering. The gerrymandering is a major problem, but it's not like Democrats drew first blood with this one. Donald Trump doesn't think he should be held accountable by anybody. So he's trying to change the rules because he doesn't like the game. We've shown what we're capable of. Now let's keep up the push through the midterms. America actually will be in your feeds and on YouTube every Saturday with an interesting interview in politics or culture . So let's zoom out and look at the big picture. The issues, what they add up to. Now, when you look at everything, there's a lot of flashing red lights around the tournament, just days before uh kickoffs. What's the stake? Well, if this World Cup falls way short of expectations in terms of attendance, revenue, local impact. At this point, what can be done? I think nothing, correct? Yeah, I certainly feel it'll be something that maybe felt more locally than with FIFA moving forward. I think they're gonna be fine. They're gonna be fine out of this. I was so glad that Rachel brought that up earlier about those trains that were the the buses that were going out to New Jersey because there was this big like how could New Jersey transit do this? But it's like for crying out loud. I mean they didn't a for suddenly to to have to deal with all of this massive security thing right and all of these m these things. You talk about the different Super Bowls going on. If you remember when the Super Bowl happened in East Rutherford uh about a decade ago, it was a huge mess. It was a huge, huge mess. And I think there was a sense that they would be more ready for things now because this would be bigger. So more money was spent, more expectations were had, more things were set up, and they're just not coming through. Again, not a problem for FIFA. They're gonna be just fine in this, but these the so many of these, not just the hotels, but like all these local businesses, they're not the ones like you it's a common mistake that a lot of sports leagues in America will love to claim. Oh, well, we're actually you have to build this a stadium because it will actually help the community and it will give job s to everyone that doesn't usually pay off. But certainly with this, there is no like this this is where the FIFA traveling world show really, really affects because basically they come in, get everything they came out of this, and whatever happens outside of that, hey, if you can't make money off the World Cup, then uh we'll take it. And I think that that that is I think what you've really kind of been seeing. Well just just just on this is the municipalities of public money that we should really be thinking about here more than the private sector , because these cities have spent public money to host the World Cup, significant public money. And what they were promised was like, you you spend this, but you're gonna have opportunities to make money back. That public money you've spent. And the big one was sponsorship. FIFA had said to the cities, you know what? Because you're doing all of this for us, we're gonna give you uh a chance to do local sponsors hip in your cities. And then whenever they've tried to do this, almost at every turn, they've been blocked by guess who? By FIFA itself, saying actually, no, no, no, no, that's our category. Oh, you want that one as well? That's also ours. Uh yeah, you might be able to get the local pizza deal. Mattress guy. Yeah, that mattress. Yeah. So that money hasn't arrived. But how big a risk is a half-filled stadium? Embarrassing, correct? Yeah, Rachel. The last time well World Cup Stadium in my mind has been empty was kind of before this these times we live in. I remember some games at Italia ninety , for example, being empty. Um and that football was obviously hugely popular in Europe and in South America, but travel wasn't as easy as it has become since then. Right. Hooligan ism was a thing back then. Like we are in a different paradigm. And don't forget, nineteen ninety-four, I think, still holds the record for the best attended World Cup. And that was with 24 teams. It grew um to 32 since then. So that's what you're competing with. So it'd be really sad. If America could fill stadiums in nineteen ninety-four when soccer was not popular . What are we saying about the state of this today? Yeah, yeah, we have to bring in Taylor Swift, obviously. But that speaks to the general just the incredible frustration that so many people have involving US soccer that this was supposed to be the one. This is something they've been working on for a long time. Again, 94 launched so much soccer in this country. And in the last 10 years, there was so much buildup. And then this really kind of started when uh the United States failed to qualify. That shifted a lot. That shifted a lot of attention, a lot of money. And it's a shame because this U.S. soccer generation of players was supposed to be the one that was built up to have this. Tarek is right. The idea that 1994, when it was just they're playing s well, what is this tournament? This is so fascinating, this thing that there was happening in the United States was such a big thing. The fact that you would have gone actually backwards. Not only does it look bad now, it looks awful for the United States, a place that was supposed to be the growth industry of soccer, was supposed to be the thing that was supposed to move forward. So Rachel, the drama around the men's world cup also affecting plans for the US. to co-host the women's Wldor cup in 2031. The confirmation has been delayed because the White House hasn't signed government guarantees. The Trump administration is reportedly pressuring FIFA to ban transathes from competing before it does so. Host cities also want better deals than they're getting for the men's tournaments now. What could it mean for the US led bid to host the women's World Cup? Um I think it'd be huge. I mean, for one reason, you know, this World Cup is the biggest ever with forty-eight teams and the women's tournament is also going to increase to 48 teams that year, 2031. I mean, that would just be enormous for the women's game, which is much younger. Men's World Cup started in 1930. The women's started in 1991. So FIFA definitely has some catching up to do. And the US, there's no question, the US has been the standard bearer. I mean, it's has the best women's program historically, won the most World Cups, and also 1999. I think that also, at least on average, that in terms of average attendance, that women's world cup still holds the record for uh attendance. But is that at risk now, do you think I don't think so and the reason is because um of the money. Even if this World Cup falls short of what people are hoping, there's still, you know, the big games are still gonna be full, they're still gonna be sold out, FIFA is still gonna make its massive bag, and um, there's still the promise of the American market coming out. In fact, I would argue that some people who were frustrated that they couldn't afford tickets to the men's World Cup might be thrilled to get tickets to the women's World Cup, which um even in twenty thirty one will probably still be less expensive. And of course you have the the women's team at the center of it with a chance to once again go to the final. So I would say that's still pretty attractive and um US would definitely want to host it. And I know that Gianni Infantino would want to to send it back here. So I I think it's it's almost a fate accompli at this point. Right. Every episode we get an expert question from an outside expert. Here's yours. Hi, my name is Guy Galloway. I work with Kara Swisher and I'm an enormous football fan. I go to Premier League games probably once every other week. I've been to the World Cups in uh Russia and in Qatar and absolutely adore the World Cup and I'll go to several games uh uh in America. I can't think of an organization that has a better product and a worse brand. Corruption, bribery, thirty-eight thousand dollar tickets for the final , and a peace award to a president who is bombing nations over and over? Why on earth would you take the purity of this sport and pervert it so badly with polit ics, with extreme pricing, that basically makes sure that anyone who's really loves the game is there on kind of a corporate out and attend. So my question is this with respect to brand, how could you be so fucking stupid? Thanks. Well, Will, then Tarek, then Rachel. How could they be so fucking stupid? Well, they can be so fucking stupid because they're gonna walk away with so much money in this. Like the the purity that he's talking about is exactly what allows all this that we the fact is I was talking to Roger Bennett who hosts the Men Blazer podcast and we'll be kind of doing a tour of the World Cup. And he was talking about how at a certain level, when these games start , all of that just fades away. It doesn't actually go away. But when you're watching, like at a certain level, the event itself is so exciting. And the things, the emotional attachment we have to this, all the pageantry and all the incredible things that come into this, at a certain level, we want to think about that. We don't want to think about this other stuff. The NFL used to call this a off-season problem. Like all those big scandals that would all pop up. The minute they kicked the game off over Labor Day, it all went away until the season was over, then they had to all deal with it again. I think that is not dissimilar. Tarek? Simply put, I think it's the equivalent of having a monopoly on water. Why do you care about the brand when you have this product that everyone wants to buy? They know people will keep buying it. It doesn't hurt them at all. They They are the masters of of this universe. There's nobody else out there. So that's it. Monopoly. Rachel? I think sports fans have become just masters at compartmentalization. I think you know all, of us are very jaded about all kinds of public institutions from politics to governing bodies, um, and that we become experts at separating one from the other. And I think that's what's gonna happen here again. It's um people love the games and the pageantry, you know, and that stuff is still around. But at the same time, America, it's not just the World Cup that's painfully expensive. We're also seeing four and five figure price tags for tickets to the MBA finals for Americans. What what does this say about who professional sports are for now? What happens when the average fan gets priced out of team successes? Sports reflects the larger society. It always has. And the notion that uh always sports have always been more for the wealthy than they have been for the needy. But as that gap continues to expand, as we see, particularly in the United States, sports is gonna reflect that. That is independent of FIFA. That is independent of supply and demand and all of the things that they're doing and the corruption of these things. At a certain level, sports, whether it wants to or not, whether people want to keep politics out of sports or not, these things reflect the society that they exist in. And I think that that the you're seeing that in the world, you're seeing that specifically very much in the United States. And so therefore you're seeing it in sports. Yeah. I mean as as someone who's not an American, I do I do find it strange. I mean, like Will, you said like sports has always been for for the wealthy first. In in Europe or in South America, these sports clubs they grew from from working class roots is for working class people, this is where they sprang up from really, and it was the only thing after being, say, in a mine, that will bring everyone together for cheap and watch the local football team. And now we're seeing the the inverse of this with these ticket prices flying up. Yes, for the World Cup. We're also seeing it in the Premier League. I mean, Scott Galloway there, I'm sure he's not sure of a few quid going to a Premier League game every other week. He's gonna go to a few World Cup games. But I mean that that is also um I guess a reflection of who the modern stadium attendee is so we're seeing here in the Premier League um almost an attack on season ticket holders because those tickets are cheaper and and then clubs are trying to pry those season tickets back so they can start selling them at higher prices for for tourists who will attend, pay more money, buy product. So it's it's getting removed from the actual roots of what these community clubs are, what these clubs were, to an asset class, I guess. And and I would add actually that, you know, um, unlike in Europe and in in some cases in South America, the US really has no organized fan opposition. You know, there there have been cases in Europe, from what I understand, that fan groups have organized and successfully beaten back, you know, season ticket price hikes and so on. And that just doesn't happen in the US. I mean, very rarely. So for whatever reason, if it's because that our our sports didn't necessarily, you know, evolve the same way. Um fans are just sort of powerless or not using their power. Or they throw things. That's the that's how we take care of it. They throw things at the people. So we talk a lot about the negatives around the World Cup, but there's still be a lot of great soccer to watch and get excited about. It's also expected to be the final World Cup for some legends of the game like Leonel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo. Let's end there. When it comes to the actual games, what are each of you going to be watching for? And for fans who still want to watch, can't justify the headaches of going to a game, how can they still find ways to enjoy the tournament if you're not actually going to it? Let's start with Tarek, then Will, then Rachel. You mentioned those two gentlemen there, Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo. It's been a privilege for us to be around while they've been around. Um this sport is century old, more uh we're almost at a hundred years of the World Cup. Mm-hmm. These two guys coming together at the same time and giving us this this quality is is something that we may never see again. Um and and this Oh we will stop it. Go ahead of these two guys, the maybe the final curtain on on these guys. But then the the beauty of this is this tournament gives a platform to the new generation. Who are the next ones? And and for me I'm very much looking forward to see if Lamin Yamal of Spain, teenager, precociously talented, already done many things, if he steps up and dominates the World Cup, that would be incredible to see. And there are many others, you know, Michael Elise from from France, Ken Mbappe of course, and I can go on and on and on, uh and I won't. But this is this is a as as Wilson, once the ball gets rolling, we we will get captivated by this tournament. There's going to be incredible storylines, um players who emerge. And for people who don't want to mortgage their house to buy a ticket to Jordan versus Uzbekistan, whoever they could just step out of your home, go into the streets and enjoy this thing. Because nothing like the World Cup brings people from all over, whether it's within the United States and the incredible diaspora you've got there, or the fans who who will be traveling there, when they get together, this is a magical thing where where humanity comes together for this one moment and it is absolutely wonderful. If anyone was in Moscow the night before the start of the twenty eighteen World Cup, they would have seen an incredible sight near Red Square, a parade of fans. You walk 10 meters and you see Argentinians, Brazilians, Mexicans, Egyptians going crazy about Mohammed Salah. It was something that you won't find anywhere else and we'll have to wait an Will. One thing that seems very clear that will happen from this is this thing's going to get excellent TV ratings. And one of the reasons and I think you're gonna hear a lot of stories about like wow the ratings are up from uh cutter in in Russia and a lot of that will be simply because these are perfect television