Empathy and the Future of Society

I'm not anxious at all, actually . Do you know that? You're not anxious ? No, I'm a lesbian, so I'm not anxious at all . So you've moved through anxiety. I never had it. Never had it. No. Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Caraswisher and I'm Carol Swisher. My guest today is stand up comedian and actor Mark Marin. You probably know Mark as the host of the podcast WTF, which just ended its run last fall after six,teen years and nearly seventeen hundred episodes on it, he interviewed everyone from President Barack Obama and Keith Richards to Carol Burnett and Robin Williams. In addition to the podcast and his critically acclaimed stand up comedy specials , Mark has starred in a number of TV shows and films, including the Netflix series Glow, The Apple TV plus Golf Comedy Stick, and the Bruce Springsteen Biopic Deliver Me From Nowhere. Now Mark is the star and producer of a new film called In Memorium from writer and director Rob Burnett. Mark plays Langston Stanfield, a talented narcissistic and arrogant actor who receives a terminal cancer diagnosis. He becomes obsessed with making into the Oscars in memorial montage and cementing his legacy as an artist and is forced to confront failed relationships and many missteps in his personal life along the way. I want to talk to Mark because he's the OG podcaster. I love all his other stuff and I think he's an amazing stand up comedian, but he was here early during the podcast days. He was even earlier than I was, and I've been here a long time . And I just think he's really been brilliant. He's a great interviewer, and I love his standup. I love his attacks and the tech oligarchs, and so there's a lot for us to talk to. So let's get into the conversation with Mark Marin. I interviewed him earlier this week after the world premiere of In Memorium at the Tribecup Film Festival , our expert question today comes from comedian Tig Nataro. Stick around Thanks again to Odu for supporting this show. Odu wants to be your ultimate all in one fully integrated platform to handle everything. Seriously , everything . Inventory, CRM, accounting, HR, and much more. No more shopping around or settling for expensive services that can only handle a fraction of your business . Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you ? Try Odoo for free at Odoo. com That's ODO . com Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough , so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odu. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier CRM, accounting, inventory, e commerce, and more. And the best part, Odu replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch . So why not you? Try Odoo for free at Odoo. com That's OD . com Whatever your thing , it could be anything , Canva helps you make that thing a thing . Canva is a simple online tool thing . It's a way to design with our Magic AI tool things. You can social media your thing, generate images or videos of your thing, make decks for presentations to show your thing. Whatever needs to be done for your thing, Canva can make it an even better and bigger thing. Canva , the thing that makes anything a thing . It is over . Mark, thanks for joining me at an opening night of the Trebeka Film Festival podcast stage for a live taping of on with Kara Swisher . So let's start talking about your careers. You spent decades working in stand up before your podcast WTF took off , now you're doing some of your best acting work. You said at your core you're an urgent person. So talk about urgency . Urgency in a TED talk way or just personal. Personal. You can ted talk it if you want . Yeah . The reason urgency is so important . Now do an NPR voice. I'm urgent and I think about it a lot. Okay, that sounds like you're going to the bathroom. Good. That sounds like MPR. Yeah. I guess I'm an urgent person because I'm filled with anxiety and dread most of the time . So everything starts in a panic and moves through in a panic. I wake up in a mild panic. I don't know why . I'm trying to resolve that . But everything is urgent because even things that I want to do when I know I have to do them, when I remember I have to do them, it's always like, oh, fuck , I have to . And that's not really a great way to enter something you want to do. I don't know if it's urgent as much as it is anxious. Anxious, but not in a nervous way. I'm just, you know, you know, and what causes this anxiety from your perspective ? You know, I don't know what it is exactly. I think it is just, you know, dread of the unknown. Yeah, so and really almost anything is unknown . I just always anything I have to do just feels like not a chore, but like I'm trying to give you an example. Like, okay . So if someone like said, why don't you take a vacation and go spend a week in Spain in about forty seconds, my brain would be like, well , where do you park ? So it's just the way my brain works. That's sort of that is dread of the known, but go ahead, go ahead, not the unknown. I just don't I don't know why. Like I wasn't anxious about this. I don't mind talking. I don't mind being in front of people. I'm not afraid of performing. But I think when I just have time and I have to do things or things are happening, I just so I guess it's urgent . It's more FOMO than it is urgent. Right. So parking in Spain is an issue, obviously. Well, yeah, because what if there's not a space? So that's sort of why do you have a car in Spain? Well, I figured I'd rent one and then we got to talk about, can I drive with the license I have or do I have to get an international license temporarily? Which side of the street do you drive on in Spain. See now , I'm cancelling my train . Cancel. All right. I'm not going. Okay. Lovely country. That's a lovely country. I know, but like it just seems like a hassle. Okay, all right. I'm not anxious at all, actually. Do you know that? You're not anxious ? No, I'm a lesbian, so I'm not anxious at all . So you've moved through anxiety. I never had it. Never had it. No. My wife is Jewish. She's very upset by this situation She's anxious? Yes. 'Cause you make her anxious. Probably. Right. You're not helping her in any way. No, not at all. No, but I'm like, Why are you so anxious? You're the opposite of anxious. You like thrive on other people's in discomfort. Yes, that's what I do. That's actually been my career and it's been an excellent and lucrative . Well, I'm glad you made a career out of it. Also made a career out of anxiety. Good, well, that's good. Okay, we're moving down a bad area. are you anxious in like when you think of your career or when you do it? Or what propels it's not really anxiety like that. I think I've moved through a certain amount of anger and a certain amount of anxiety. I don't have any anxiety really about my career. When I have to do something that's new , that's when I get very anxious. Like I don't feel insanely confident as an actor. So when I have to act , I get anxious . I've been playing a lot of music lately . I get very anxious about that, but I also know that that kind of fear is fine until you figure out how to do something. Right. Yeah, to do things at any point in your life with if they're new , those things aren't new, but for me to do them publicly and to really work on them, you know, you're going to suck for a while . And you gotta just, you gotta take that. You got to, you know, deal with that . But I learned from, you know, stand up and also from my, you know, early acting jobs that like it's okay to suck, you know, and either you'll get through it or you just keep sucking and you'll stop because it's not good for you. Which is interesting. You picked a career where you really have to put yourself out there . I don't know why I chose that. Yeah, Harry Schirr once said the reason we make people laugh is to try to control why they laugh at us , which I think is very funny and very smart . I don't know why it was stand up, but it was always stand up. Since I was a kid, I always wanted to be a standup. I always thought that stand ups were able to make sense of the world in a very specific way in a very quick way, and a very poetic way . And they were able to disarm fears in a very quick way, in a very poetic way, and also give you new ways of looking at things. So I thought stand ups were just wizards and geniuses . And I always thought it was the most it's a singular stage and it's a very sacred space to me and it doesn't seem to be that sacred anymore generally speaking to me in talking about non danes, although sometimes it is actually. Is there someone that was the first person you noticed in that regard? I think my earliest memories really are of watching, you know, TV in the afternoon. Right. Watching Merv Griffin probably , you know, I still I see Jay Lenno around now because he's sort of back and doing stand up and like I remember a joke he did on like the Merve Griffin show. Like it stuck with me my whole life. Remember the joke? Yeah , he was just sitting in a chair like this . And I'm pretty sure it was Merve, but the host goes, We're going to go away for a break and Jay goes, Is the chair gonna fold into the wall now? You know, like on a game show where it just sort of disappears or goes. And I thought it was so fucking funny. But comics always sort of made an impression on me. I listened to a lot of a lot of Chi Chin Chong, a lot of George Carlin when I was a kid. When I saw Richard P ryor's first movie, when I was in high school, the first live in concert, that was a big deal. My parents took me to see Jackie Vernon when I was like eleven years old at the Hilton Inn in Albuquerque, New Mexico in the lounger, because I love Jackie Vernon because I'd see him on talk shows. And it was kind of weird. I was a little kid in a dark lounge and there was a sweaty old guy who was probably near the end of his career and we were like second row and he looked terrible. He looked like he was gonna have a heart attack any second. And some part of me was like, I want to be him. Yeah . What was your drink order? No, I don't want to answer that. So let's move to the film first. We're gonna get back to com edy in a second, but the film In Memorium. You play Langston Stanfield, a sixty year old narcissistic, arrogant actor who receives a terminal cancer diagnosis and becomes bent on getting in the Oscars In Memorium Montage , which is quite a premise. He tells his manager if he's not in and he didn't exist, essentially. Yeah. It's an absurd obsession, but at the same time, well, it is in a way, but it isn't. And so I talk a lot about death. I just did a whole series about death or CNN. Did you come up with figure out a way out of it? No, no, I'm going to die. But it's called Carol Switcher wants to live forever. She doesn't. But talk about this how it came about and how you thought about the role. You were really a jerk in the role at the beginning, like so much so that I had to turn it off for a second. Did you? Yes. You do a great job playing in narcissistic actor, yeah. Yeah, well , you know, I was brought up by wild narcissists too. Yeah . So you kind of you know how to lock in . And at some point you realize, well, maybe I have some of those things that they have . But if it's not truly pathological, you can sort of temper it or get rid of it or control it . But you do know how to do the narcissistic thing . When I got the role, you know, Robinette, the writer who wrote a great script, directed the movie , offered me this role through my management and I said to my manager like, well, how many people turned it down ? Because that's why I think to know that what number am I ? You know, which other funny fellows have not wanted to do this? So and then over time they convince you that you're the only one they wanted . And you go and you believe it. And so I took the job. Your first lead role, right? It is my first lead role. Yeah. And I think Rob wanted me because I don't know really who else could have done this role in the way that I did it not in an arrogant way, but it's a weird role . But the process was, you know, I read the script. I thought it was great and I thought the premise was great. And then it just becomes about being present for what's on the page. I think, you know, as a person who's acting , I relate to the guy. I know I'm not the guy, but I'm close enough to the guy to play the guy, I believe. So I find the part of myself that fits this guy and the parts of me that don't fit it, I try to shut off. I really think that if something is well written that the answers to your quest on how to perform it and I'm no lifetime actor, it's all on the page if you're present for what's going on on the page and present for the actors around you. What made you like this premise? I mean, you called it emotionally charged and very human . What was the thing that attracted? Crazy funny . It's crazy, dark, funny. Whenever I told people what this movie was about, they were like, they laughed because it's funny, but it's not that outside of reality. A guy who was a big actor when he was younger, had big shots in show business and it kind of all faded away. And as he got older, you know, who knows what he did, but he ended up on a sitcom for five years , you know, for the money . But in his heart, he was always a big actor , and he kind of failed there . So now he's dying and the only thing that will give his wife meaning is to get into this immemorial montage . But he doesn't know if he has the resume for it. He doesn't know if he can make it in the memorium, right? So then it's sort of like, well, we got to figure out an angle. So he's going to forgo o chem . So he makes the cut. Now so only half the room's laughing because the other half is sort of like this sounds like a sad movie. And then I have no use for those people because like they're the ones who are ruining everything. This is a funny concept . You know, just like triggered babies. Like that sounds like a sad film. It is. So what? That doesn't mean it's not funny. I don't know why I'm angry at you now. But yeah, so I thought it was I thought it was very funny. But oddly, as I played it and as you know, the foundational relationship in the movie is with me and my estranged daughter played by Talia Rider who was great . And I didn't play it in a broad way. And Rob and I have talked about it. There are some bits of comedy in there that they're not broad, but they could have been played differently. But I played it very real because I don't really know how to do broad that well . I have to approach it like it's real. But once the relationship with Talia started to happen, this is sort of to explore the sadness element. It does get sad. But I think that because the guy is such an asshole and you kind of don't like him for a while and then as he sort of breaks down a little bit in the relationship with Lily Gladstone as the therapist sort of softens him to a degree , it becomes a little more weighty . And because I was talking about this with T alia, the woman who played my daughter yesterday . You know, the scene where they, well, I don't want to ruin the movie for anybody . But there's a scene, you know, where there's a cake involved . And it's a horrendous bit of comedy. It really pushes the envelope like of what, you know, you can emotionally take as a funny premise . And at that point, you know, it does change to sadness, but not until that point. No So I thought that was all very challenging. It was very , as you said, he's a self described asshole who realizes he doesn't have any friends. He has four to six ex wives and the longest relationship is with a manager. . How did you prepare for the person who cares more about being admired by strangers than loved by the people in his life ? Well, I can relate to that . You know, it's a sad it's a sad situation, you know, in the sense of and like even as you read that, I realized that at this point in my life, my emergency contact is my manager. So wow . So So I'm living that to a degree. Okay , but it's not so much about the people in my life, but I've always felt like I could be more candid and more open , you know, in this room , like with these people and they're they're your people and I don't even know them. Okay . But I'm sure some of them are mine. But they are But there is something about making my self emotionally available on a stage that is it's where it happens mostly for me the connection. It's a parasocial relationship for who them? It's a parasitical theme, parasocial, meaning I'm not having parasocial wage. No, you're not. They know you, but you don't know them. Well, yeah, that can become problematic because very easy access to all of us, you know. So So but to address the thing it's like, I don't know what that is. Like some performers I say they're looking for love or they need the love for the affirmation . Yeah, but I don't know if I need that. It's like, I'm not even sure, you know, I like the laugh . But I think there's something about being seen and being present in yourself and being acknowledged for that. I don't know. I'm very odd with how I feel about audiences . I used to do a joke about it. I used to say , you know, like I'll do a joke that like going lands with half the audience . And I'll say like, you know, that's what I like to do with an audience. I like to push you away, see if I can get you back and push you away and get you back. And that's a little dynamic I call dad. So and there's something to the, you know, the parents connection. I've done a lot of thinking about this , but I don't like that I'm so neatly a validation. I don't like it. Yeah. It's like it's almost like an addiction. Do you do the flip side, the withholding part? The withholding from who? Anyone ? Yeah, yeah, I do. I do, I do that, but it's hard for me now. I've gotten worse at it . You know, you know, if I was I withholding with my last relationship? Not really . I find that if people kind of instinctively know me, they can get past that pretty quickly , you know, because I'm pretty sensitive and kind of like, you know, I'm a pretty soft guy . You know, see that. But whatever, you know, I've built another thing I've what was that line I wrote, the monster I created to protect the child inside me is hard to control sometimes. Yeah. So it's a great line . But no, people who know me can get right through it. Can I withholding just a is test. Yes, yeah, it's just a test. And if you pass the test, lucky you, you get me . It's hard to do with children. And speaking of which I don't have any children. I have four, so I have them for all of us. Yeah, four. Yes, I do. Wow. Yeah, you can't be withholding. Well, you can, but uh, what do you mean, Ugh? Did you just Uch my four children? I did. They're fantastic How are you not gonna think that? They just are. It's factual. Of course they are. No, it's factual. It's actually factual . Whatever you say . Okay, well, I'm just telling you they're great. They're anyway. In any case, you have a fake daughter in this movie, Maura, and they're getting to know each other and he's teaching her the Sanford Meisner repetition exercise. It was very striking where he tells her don't think, feel, and you both get very emotional. I'd like you to talk about that scene. The first time we did it on the park bench ? Well, we really did it. I mean, oddly, if you do that exercise, it will get you . And I'm not sure what it was with me and Talia, but it really worked pretty quickly Again, because the script is so good and it's all there that we were able to emotionally connect in that sadness. We both engaged in something, but that exercise if anyone does it will push you to listening and repetition . Yeah, it'll push you to a limit . And given that it was loaded, that was me trying to get to know this daughter, who I whose life I wasn't present in , that was loaded . So it started to happen very quickly. And that the exercise of me sort of admiring her and then also realizing in that moment that you know, she is my daughter and that I'm having this whatever emotions that I never engaged with because I wasn't in her wife. Yeah, it was overwhelming. So in the first time we did it, we were crying. I would imagine that given the number of takes we did with some of these things, it's hard to know which ones they use, but you know, you don't want to cry and then you know have to do it too many more times because you know, then you're forcing it. How many times did you do that, See? We don't have a lot of time . I think we shot that movie in like twenty days . So we had to get it in one or two, maybe three takes. So you grieve the death of your partner, Lynn Shelton very publicly and you helped shape her legacy through your reflections. Now you're starring in a film that deals with legacy and what an artist leaves behind. I'm just curious , talk about how the experiences have affected thinking of your own legacy or what that will look like? Did you think about it doing this ? No I didn't . I don't Would you like to try now? I'm gonna try. Okay . You know, I don't think feel . I am feeling, I am feeling, you know, like I think about Lynn Shtelon, I think about , you know, in this world of no context and everything all the time and no real sense of history or what anything means in relation to it. You know, what does a legacy really mean ? I don't know. So like, yeah, I mean, like I've done a lot of stuff . And also, you know, the mindset around , you know, the difference between, you know, content and art and you know, churning out content and then, you know, everything we once knew was something amazing is just broken down into clips . You know, everything just churns away on our phone. None of us really think anymore. We just react to our phone . So, you know, what is legacy? You know, what does it mean to me? I don't know. You know, my girlfriend died and what happens is when anyone dies is, you know, a handful of people are like, well, what are we going to do with all this shit ? So that's just the reality of it . You know, people say to me, you know, you like , you should archive, you know, your letters and your notes and get them, you know, put at a university. I'm like, for what? So I seem I don't know why this anger comes out sometimes. That's right. But like, even when I think of the podcast, you know, seventeen hundred episodes of fairly rare and singular interviews with a lot of people . Absolutely yeah. And a lot of them are very deep and a lot of them are very reviewing. They were moving for me. They exist in the world. And you know, and I hope that people can go back to those. I was just walking down the street today and some woman walks out of a doorway and she goes, Oh my God, I was just listening to you and Nick Crow this morning. Now, what's interesting about that is either of those Nick Croh episodes or at least 's a decade old or fifteen years , and the other is at least a year or two. And I'm like, all right, well that means something. You know, if any of these conversations I've had or if any of my comedy bits can still provide a service for people in terms of doing for people what they did for me when I was a kid, making sense of the world, looking at something in a different way, elevating something, making someone feel less alone, making someone laugh at something that was, you know, stuck in their heart. Then great, that's a great legacy to have . And I hope that happens. Well, that is legacy, right? Right. Final question about this movie. How do you expect it's going to be received? I'm just curious, do you think about that at all? Where does it belong? Try not to think about that because in Moviland. Where does it belong in Movie Land? Yeah. You know, it's like I don't the great thing about this movie is you know, I'm just an actor and you know, let Rob worry about that shit like he texted me the other day. He's like, This is going to be a wild ride. It's going to be a lot of ups and downs. I just don't want you to feel, you know, freaked out about it. I'm like, I'm not stressing at all . You're the director. You take it. You know what I mean? I'm really not. You just hope with this thing as he does, in terms of where anything fits in or how something is sold anymore or we live in a world where genius actors and brilliant writers and great directors do amazing things that no one sees . That is the world we're living in. Why ? Because everything's broken open. Everything is like it's just the wild west out there. There are no gate keepers and the ones that do exist are greedy and basing everything on an algorithm of people that could be fucking morons. Yeah . So now you're speaking my language, but go ahead. Yeah, no, I mean, I get it, you know , so I think the hope is that the movie lands somewhere where it is seen by as many people as possible , you know, how, you know, one markets it or how you know nothing, , you know, if you go on Netflix, you know, I've had specials on Netflix. You know, it's on the front page for a day. And then the thing you worked three years on people are like, you know, I don't know. I saw it yesterday and now it's gone. Yeah, and then Charlie Ferran is who the hell knows what's in Prey or something. Yeah, I don't understand it. But I do know that I probably watch the menu of Netflix more than I watch things on Netflix. Yeah, that's so that's fair. It's a very good menu. It's a really good way. It's just like you're getting a lot done. It's the same thing as scrolling reels. You're like, I don't know about that movie. You watch a trailer. And why can't you turn the trailers off? I don't know. That is the only thing for a reason . I know it's for a reason , but yes, it's annoying because the Apple remotes are too small. Okay. All right, all right. Okay , so okay. Do you think you'll make the in memorium at the Oscars when you die? No . Okay , why not? Sure you will. I've done two movies. I know. I can't even know they bring in other people now . They bring in other people now. I think it's, I don't know how they choose that . I definitely won't make it. No. No. That probably wouldn't even know it depends on who dies that way probably . Well, that's in the movie. Yeah, but it's always gonna be more than me. Like there's gonna be, you know, there's gonna be a gaffer that's done ninety movies. Yeah , yeah. He's gonna be in it. Maybe there's going to be like Mark Merrin did four movies. Well , Joe's the real deal. You know, like so yeah , I don't know. Like I don't look, I don't win prizes and I don't like another validation , but it's not true, you know, it's actually not true anymore. You know, because I think I don't know what people want, but I know that I'm not always giving it to them. Withholding . Yeah , withholding. And I know that. Yeah. It's not withholding. It's aggressive. It's the opposite. Okay. Because like in my specials , but I will tooth my own horn here. I did my special this, one that's up now panicked , won the WGA Award. Run the Writer's Guild Award. And it was up against SNL fifty , the Conan at the Mark Twain Center and Jordan Clepper Daily showed like massive staffs of writers . You know, fifteen guys on each on each staff, and then just me, you know, Mark Marin panicked. So I was like, there's no way I'm going to win that thing. And I did, and it felt good because like that one , I think has some, there's honor in that . The writers of a single. Well, no, the writers the word itself, the award itself , the golden globe. Really fuck that. It's not like a yeah, golden globe. That's not one paid for. Paid for, fuck that. Yeah, right. Or like, or like, you know, Saga Wards are fine. But like I know actors and there's so many shows. Like you know, what happens is you're going through still back on that Netflix menu you are. Okay . Well, no you',re going through the nomine and there's like fifty in each category . So and you only saw one of the things. So what you're voting is like, oh, I know her. And that's it . You didn't even see that we know them. That's why we do political voting now. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Quintz. Summer makes you rethink the outfits you want to wear, lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just look and feel good at the moment, you put them on. And if you're looking to add more for your wardrobe, why not try quince? They focus on high quality essentials, think breathable linen, soft organic cotton and washable silk, but without the luxury markup. Quince European linen pants and shirts are the perfect warm weather upgrade to add to your rotation starting at just thirty four dollars. Their tees are soft and easy to wear and their lightweight cotton sweaters are perfect for cooler summer nights. I'm wearing one of their t shirts right now and I'm about to put on one of their lightweight cotton sweaters. When I go on this trip I'm about to go on. Plus everything at Quince is priced fifty to eighty percent less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middleman. So you're paying for quality not brand bark up. Besides the shirt and the t shirt and sweater I'm wearing, I brought a whole bunch of stuff for this trip, a lot of soft pants that I got from there. I use a lot of Quint's products. Elevate your summer wardrobe go to quints. com slash care for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too, that's QINCE dot com slash Cara for free shipping and three hundred sixty five day returns quince dot com slash for this show comes from Rippling. As a business owner, you know how in demand top talent can be, and that means retaining your best employees is something that you should always keep at the top of your mind. That's where rippling comes in. Rippling is built on your live global workforce data, giving you full visibility into your business and the ability to stay ahead of the curve. Say you want to retain top talent, just ask Ripling AI, who are my top performers this year? And instantly receive a workforce report highlighting your top employees with supporting data like recent performance reviews and engagement metrics , but it doesn't stop there. Ripling can turn these insights into a proposed retention strategy, including a recommended ten percent spot bonus for top performers. All you have to do is tap confirm and the spot bonus is added to next month's pay run. So don't settle for AI that's all talk. Head to rippling dot ai slash Kara to get AI that turns insight into action. That's RIP LING . AI slash Kara K RA sign up for exclusive access today . Support for this show comes from cohere. As AI advances, one thing matters more than ever, staying in control. Most AI comes with strings attached like sharing your data and infrastructure or compromising your independence. With Cohere, you don't have to give up control to gain capability. You can have both. Cohere started seven years ago with a bold mission, scale enterprise intelligence without sacrificing sovereignty. Their solution, AI leaves you in charge of your data and infrastructure allowing you to maintain your competitive edge. It's designed for enterprises, governments and organizations that refuse to give up control in pursuit of inno vation. From frontier models to out of the box tools, Cohere gives you everything you need to build and deploy secure, scalable AI that drives growth and delivers results. Their platform is designed around your business with models that can be customized and trained on your proprietary data so the solution is uniquely yours. And control doesn't stop at customization. Cohere is built with multilayered protections, access and industry certified security standards that help safeguard your data while supporting privacy compliance and other requirements. As AI continues to transform every industry, Cohere gives you the power to put it to work today on your terms. Take charge of your AI with Cohere. To learn more vis,it Cohere dot com slash box . I'm going to shift to WTF and your life since ending the podcast . As you were whining on the show, you talked about the anxiety again. You felt about not having it in your life in part because it helped you meet people. You said, quote, I live for connection, I live for it because I need to know I exist. So eight months, how's it going? I exist most days . Has it been eight months? Yeah. What is going on with time? I don't know . I don't know. How did that happen? Yeah. Did COVID fuck up time? Yes . And then now the phones fuck up time too. It eats your time. Oh my god . Anyway, yeah, it's up and down with the time . Yeah . Because you have to realize, you know, half of my life I spent as a comic trying to be a comic. Yeah, and you weren't hinged to the idea of being funny. You'd have a well, but I mean, you just have time . Like if you're not like, if you're just being a comic and you're getting by early in your career as a comic on you know whatever a few hundred bucks a week and living on the low eye running around doing one nights and stuff. I mean outside of the drive to the gig and the half hour hour you do , you've got another twenty two hours that you wander around high with a notebook , you know , so I 've been I've had time before . Right. Now I'm not high and I have money. So it's a different kind of time. Right. So keep it going . It's okay . Yeah . Yeah, I mean , well, I was surprised, you know , like because I thought like after the podcast like, you know, do I got to stay, how am I going to stay relevant ? You know, maybe I'll get on Instagram, you know, and do the live thing , you know . But then like, after like a few weeks , I'm like, I don't want to do any of it. And I don't miss it . The sort of drive to generate. I mean, look, I know a lot of people love the podcast and it was an important part of my life, and I did it for sixteen years . But to be honest with you, I really talk to everyone I want to talk to. Right. There's like one seventeen hundred people. How many more people was there one? Is there one you Well, some people didn't want to do it . I can't make people do it . You know, people are like, You should get Dill and I'm like, All right, call him. What do you want from me? Right. So I don't even think he'd be that great an interview. That's right. That's hit or miss with that gu y. Yeah, yeah. So but no literally what started to happen was, you know, I would get opportunities to talk to people and then I, you know, I'd have to decide like , you know, what do about their work? Do I know their work? If I don't know the work, but I am interested, can I get into their work, you know, which is just part of the gig, but then it gets to a point where it's like, do you want that job? Right. Like if something that you love to do or that, you know, sort of serviced a lot of different things in your life becomes a job. Everything becomes a job. No , it does. You're saying it doesn't? I say it doesn't. I love what I do . Oh, well, okay, well good for you. But I'm not anxious. Like you . I'm not that anxious, but like I know that feeding the monster like you know, there's one thing I get you're not anxious, but you know, where does ambition play into it? You know, where you just liked it. I mean, one of the things you said it was freeing at one point because you could of course. No, I loved it. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that like there comes a point, you know, my producer and I worked together and for years. And it was just the two of us. Yeah. We were not part of a network. We were not, you know, gunning for money. It was never designed to be for money. When we started the podcast, there was no way to make money . We never made it video because we believed in audio as a format and the intimacy of audio. It was never an idea to really make it video And I think because of these principles or what we happened , like how it became a business, like I've been in modern podcasting since day one . So I saw the business grow and build and how it worked out for everybody. So ultimately, it's a miracle, you know, that it gave me everything it gave me and I love doing it. But after sixteen years, a new show every Monday and Thursday, we were kind of fried. And also like because of the way the business has grown around us, there is nothing special about almost any of it . That the bar has been lowered to such a degree that people prefer parasocial relationships with mildly charismatic , fundamentally, usually untalented people than being engaged by anything provocative or truly interesting that someone made out of their imagination and heart. I don't need to be a part of that anymore . Right, right. I see that. I see that. Wow. Did you think of yourself as an interviewer? Or you just were like, I don't like this shit's happening anymore. I don't like how it's evolved . No, I just like I needed to connect with people because I thought when I started that podcast, you know, I thought I was an outsider, I thought I'd pissed a lot of people off . And a lot of it wasn't exactly true, but I mean the first the way I developed whatever my style of conversation was, you know, I would have people over in my world. They were comics . And I would say like , are we good? Dude, are you mad at me about that thing? And nine times out of ten, they'd be like, I don't even remember what you're talking about . And I'd been carrying it around my whole life. Right. So but through that, you know, some sort of drive happened in terms of my curiosity, my need to connect was always a big part of it, but also just like , you know, not just connecting, but hearing how people work and hearing how people, you know, exist in those moments. Because I didn't I never really had questions . You know, I would do some research , but like the whole thing hinged on those things. Curiosity, right? And your curiosity. Sure, it was curiosity, but was also like, yeah, I had to be interested. Yeah. It's bad if I'm not interested. Right, just for people to know, it was two thousand nine, which was very early. And you said it helped, quote, unleash an exciting type of delivery system for pure self expression . But also unleashing format that can be used for dubious means, propaganda and pure evil . Oh yeah, oh yeah, this is the monster of the monsters. So how did you feel about you ushered it in of all the people I can think of one of the couple among the beginning, the OG people probably . But the thing was that I think what , yeah, I'm not I'm not a businessman, I'm not an entrepreneur, and I'm not a grifter. Okay . So those weren't on my menu . But I would say that's ninety four percent of podcasts . So whatever I was doing at the beginning , you know, I didn't invent interviewing . I don't know why some people can live on these mics and connect and why some people can't. But what happened was that because of my success and a few other people, everyone decided that anyone could do it. Right. And they can. Right. But go, there is a graveyard of four episodes of someone's dream podcast , thousands of them , thousands, since two thousand eight, there's got to be like a million, you know , three to four episodes of someone who has entered it going like, this is going to be great. And by week four, they're like nine people listened . So do you feel responsible for that great sure, but like I'm just a lot of them didn't go away. Yeah, yeah, they didn't. Now last month, for example, the businesses evolved, as you said. You said drifters, entrepreneurs, and what was the third one? Drifters. Entrepreneurs and businessmen, businessmen. Okay, propagandists. There's a lot there's a lot of things going on. Last month, Spotify and Netflix acquired the video rights to distribute Jay Shetty's on purpose podcast and a deal reportedly worth Jay Shetty. I don't know who that is. Maybe I'm out of the loop. Well, he got one hundred million dollars . It's part of Netflix's broader push in a podcast and effort to compete with YouTube . Did you do you think about that and staying do you think about when I saw podcasts on the menu of Netflix . I'm like, It's fucking over. Yeah. You know , you know, no one gives a shit about playing yourself. But the bar has been lowered to such a degree that people will sit at home and watch people on Zoom with half their fucking face covered at sure SM seven , it's like what is wrong with fucking people? Like do they not have any friends? Do they are they not curious about anything? Do they not use their brain anymore? They can't think. They got to have three idiots who were talking about the last time they shit themselves as adults entertain them . I mean, it's like it's like a fucking world of drive time radio . It's the worst. Right. So why do you think it's popular? Why do you think it's popular? Because people are lazy and they'll adapt to anything and they're fucking lonely and they want to have parasocial relationships with people they feel that they're alike, which means usually fucking amateurs. Right, right. Okay . All right, then I think that's it. Well , a lot of them I don't know keep going. I don't know what's going on with me. Okay , I like it. I like it. I like it a lot, actually . Actually, a lot of people you're referring to in your is the because I'm on the podcast anymore. Yeah, you have to like the anger's right there again . I like to do that. That's good. Get on stage, you know, it's I think it's better for the stage. Like because I was worried after the podcast like, you know, people aren't going to know my dates, but I think people like miss me because the tickets are selling great . Like I just use Instagram to promote stuff, you know, or quick stuff, but I think not doing the podcast has made some people sort of like, well, I got to see what ads are up to you. Yeah, it's how can they miss you if you won't go away . We'll be back in a minute . Support for the show comes from O du . Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odu . It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e commerce, and more. And the best part, Odu replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch . So why not you? Try Odoo for free at Odu. com That's ODO . com Rayban Meta lets you explore the world without a screen getting in the way. So you stay present in the moment. Hey Meta, tell me what kind of dessert this is. That's a stroop waffle, a Dutch waffle with spiced syrup in the m iddle. Is it sweet? Yes, perfect for a snack or dessert. Delicious . Get answers on the go without interrupting your flow. Ray Van Meta, iconic style meets Meta AI , available at Walmart and other authorized retailers. Who cares about your poops? Ollie does. That's why Ollie's science backed gut health lineup helps support your family's regular ity. From daily probiotics to fibergummies your kiddos will love. Find it all on ollie. com That's OL . com. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. One of the groups you in your latest HBO special panic, you criticize were the Mosanphere. Podcasts are full of them. And one notable line was if Hitler were alive today, he'd probably appear on Theovan's podcast . He had a thing. He'd probably have a podcast. Anyway, talk . Talk about happening here with these guys. Well, look, you know, like I had to really deliberate or delegate or what's the word I want. I had to think about that bit. You know, because I know these guys, I've known them my whole life. I knew them before there was a man with fear. I knew them as comics. You know, I knew R ogan when he started in Boston. I've known these guys. We are somewhat of a weird tribe and a community . So it gets to a point where look, my politics are what they are, you know, I'm team left. You know, I'm not going to make all the games . But I'm team left . You know, like going downtown to fight the I'm again, not today, I thank you but , you know, good you know, fight good luck with it. I'll go wow, keep following on the reels, you know , so but I've always been that way. Yeah, you know, that's always been my my politics and, you know, I believe in liberal democracy, I believe in it. So but like with the Theo Von thing, that's a joke and it's a good joke. Yeah . You know, to do Theo interviewing Hitler is hilarious. And I eventually got to a place with that joke where I'm like, Paus, how could Theo get mad at me this? Right. It's funny. Right. But they're sensitive, though. They get mad at you Well, Joe said he got mad at him. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, you got mad. I think they get hurt, you know, they're very delicate flowers. They are a little bit. Yeah, maybe they are hurt. They are. I don't know why billionaires are like that. I get so many calls like you're so mean to me and I go by France. Go fuck yourself , you know? But like my issue was and I think that many of them look, I don't want to be diplomatic about this. You know , we don't. And I've talked about this a lot. I talked about anti war in the special and I talked about it when I was promoting the special. My problem with those guys, what they is that they were sucking up to fascists and they were promoting the end of liberal democracy and the beginning of authoritarianism. And to me that was plain and clear to see. So my issue was with them was because of that. It was political and it was like they were bootlickers and they were pawns, but I also think they were suckers. And I also think that some of them are grifters is that some of these guys, it's like they're going to go to where the money is and the audi ences they built, you know, like even before I made these comments, like , you know, would I ever go on Joe's show? Because he's sort of a, you know, a star maker or Tony show. It's like , no, I wouldn't because what am I going to do with that audience? Right, right. You know, I've got my audience. They're delicate, you know, angry, creative, middle aged people, but they're my people, you know, that's so and there's enough of them , you know , and I think we need to speak up and and in that special I was, you know, I took I balanced that special. It was a delicate thing to to sort of take hits at the lefties in a way that they could handle it. So and I did that, but but really my and it does seem that the tide is turning, you know, like you know, Dylan and Schultz and Rogan are have become what's happening. Right. But you know what that means though? It's over. Exactly. They need to get back . Well, well, right, they maybe they don't know where it's dragging them. But I think really that a lot of these guys and people in general they don',t have a worldview . They're reacting like I don't know, I don't think they think it through. You know, a couple guys got mad at me for the Riyadh joke. And these are jokes I'm doing. Everything on that special was a joke. And all the stuff that I was doing, promoting the special, taking them to task a bit was, you know, it was done in the spirit of comedy . You know, but these are jokes. Right. But they have some teeth to them and they're not their teeth, right? I just got to the point where it's like Lefties or comics that are progressive, it's difficult to talk about politics. And it's difficult to talk about left winging politics without , you know, seeming strident and you know, annoying and so it and those two things are not great for funny. Yeah. So but you've been outspoken against the sort of so called anti woke Anglian comedy as pure hack. And it is just it's become hack. Yeah. It's like a boob joke to huh? It's like a boob joke. Boob joke. Boob jokes are funnier, but you know what I mean? It's like the easiest joke to do. Look, a good dick joke is always great . Listen, I hello, I'm with Scott Galloway all the fucking time. So I'm aware of the situation. So but the thing that bothered me about that is like they were whether they knew it or not in the beginning of anti wokeness , that that was always like the, you know, the Republican , you know, what the Republicans and the right have always wanted for the last three or four decades was to dismantle, you know, liberal democracy. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, some of them are still pissed off about the New Deal . So and women's vote. That's right All of that stuff. And this has been brewing for so long , that when comics get duped into this idea that because they can't say tranny or worse words , that somehow or another, that the left is infringing upon their freedom of speech. It's so shallow and stupid . And because they fought for it, they just became part of the party line of dismantling liberal democracy. They weren't even never it was never a freedom of speech issue . It was never a constitutional issue. Never. You can say whatever you want, and you're just going to have shoulder the burden of consequences. Yeah, of the consequences . But ultimately, what happened because they were used as cudgels to dismantle the entire infrastructure of of DEI and everything else, right So now like they don't have to shoulder anything because now they can say those words with impunity and the left have no traction to counter it because we're living in two separate worlds . But I hold them responsible for for being the front line of being a dupe and the c udgel. The stupid hammer. That's right. Right. Yeah, I think that's true. And so for me, it was always a big picture thing. Right. And now like some of them, I don't know if they know that, but they know they , you know , that it's I think they're understanding their suckers at this point. I think they're getting the penny is dropping. I think so. You know, and it's just like, you know, what do you know it's weird? Like I've been working on this bit, you know, stage just about how like that there's going to be people now, Maga people that are going to be like, oh man , I think I screwed up . You know, and you're probably gonna come in contact with them. And I think the instinct of a progressive or a left winging person is to be like, yeah, you fucking idiot . You broke the world. Dumbsites. What the fuck is wrong with you st,upid . And but I think really the play is to not say anything . And I'm talking about without the face. None of this . No, you know, none of that . Just, you know, just don't say anything. Sit with it. Do that face again, please . Just let them sit with it and go, look, you know, we always loved you, dad. And yeah, good idea. All right, every episode, we only have a little bit, we were going to run over a little bit. Every episode we get a question from over, you can go as long as you want. Okay, great. Fantastic. . Every episode we get a question from an outside expert. Here is yours. Hi, I'm Tig Notaro, comedian, podcaster, actor, mother, wife friend and certified gay person . My big question for Mark Marin is where do you get your gumption? I've told you many times the deep appreciation I have for your continued strong, steady, outspoken bold views that really should not be bold views . But they are views that do not line up with the majority of your peers that you came up with . I feel like you're truly fighting the good fight, and I do not take your voice for granted you're so important to so many . Where do you get your gumption? I really want to know way back when and where it comes from. Thank you, sir. Oh , I love to know there's a period there. I've known her for a long time . Many years like before she was tape, kinda . Yeah . There was a period there where we were dressing almost identically. Yeah I can see it. Yeah . Like you've got a lesbian vibe. Sure do. Yeah, I do. I do. I know. I know even the facial hair. Yep, I'm a little bit suit. You'd be a her suit lesbian. Yeah, it was just very funny because we'd go to festivals or we work together and we'd look at each other and I'm like, What is happening? Where do I get my gumps from? I'm a guy that's like it's a great word. , I think I like to poke . And I think that's part of my comedy and also part of the way that, you know , I interact with people that it's the opposite of withholding. It's the poking to see if you can get a rise out of people. And I think I've always sort of done that to see if maybe I get yelled at or maybe I wouldn't, you know, I don't know what that exactly is about. But I'm also somebody I've said all the things you can say on stage in my career, in my life. I've made, I wouldn't call them mistakes , but in different times I've done dubious jokes. I'm not saying I said the N word. I'm not saying I hurt people, but you know, I know I've learned from experience and from people talking to me about what is hurtful, what is wrong. You know, maybe you should think about this a different way. Like I used to do a joke many, many years ago about transgender, the idea of it, but you know, and it was something to do with like becoming a mythological , you know, entity . And to me, I thought it was a celebration, but someone said to me, No, it's it's not correct. You know, I used to do I used to try to, you know, frame the R word in a way. I always knew it was kind of bad, but there was like in my mind, you know, maybe if we explored it. But then someone said to me like, you know, if you have, you know, someone, you know, in your family or your son or your daughter and they're challenged like that, it's it's incredibly hurtful. So I've made a lot of mistakes personally in all different ways. And I've learned from those things . And that makes for me the passion about my point of view deeper. I'm not just reacting . It's not coming from , you know, I'm not posturing , you know, I feel these things And it's not just a fight . So the gumption is really and really what it comes down to is this anger that's popped up a couple times tonight . Like that happened on the Howie Mandel show because he was like it's harder when you're with somebody. Like if you're sitting with somebody that you disagree with like you know if, I see Theo , like, you know , when I'm gonna , it's amazing that I haven't. Right. You know, what happens then? You know, if I see Joe, or if I see Tony, all these guys who have will there be a fist fight? No, no, no, there won't be a fist fight , but what I think what eventually what will happen is not unlike I guess everyone talks about this time when we could put our politics aside still be people with each other . I assume that is probably what will happen . Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, I assume that if I see Theo or Tony or the guys that have seen us spoken who have responded to me. Yeah, they have. Which is fine. Yeah, you know, it's it's a lot. I don't love that . You know, that's the other thing about wanting approval or validation is that, you know, when you're going to speak up, you've got to realize, well, you're not going to get it from any everybody , you know, and you've got to live with that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Even if they're peer. What does that encounter look like? Well, I imagine would be like, What's up, you know? And they're like, hey . So what are we are we good or what are we doing? . All right, okay, well good to see you. I hope you're well. Yeah . Yeah . And then maybe it'd be like they'd be like, Oh, you're so right . I don't think so. I don't think so . It would be nice if that was the case. You know, it's interesting, but as you say, you don't like it. I mean, unfortunately, the people who insult me, one of them is about to become a trillionaire, so I'm totally fucked who said I had a heart. Is he just gonna crush you with his money? Yes, he will throw money on top of me. And I'll say please keep throwing one of those. But it's raped because he's gonna kill you with the money. Yes, but he can can try try.. He I don't think he'll be successful. Speaking of Elon Musk, last year, Elon Musk went on . Oh that guy? That guy. Trust me , went on Rogan and said, quote, the fundamental weakness of Western civilization is empathy. Conservative writ er Helen Andrews says that demographic feminization that values empathy over rationality has led to wokeness. Essentially women are empathetic and that leads to bed politics. I want you to kind of make the case for empathy because I think you are very empathetic. At the same time, as you've noted , how do you counter that if you're on the left or progressive ? Are you doomed to nuance and verbosity? Or what is the way to counter that idea . I don't you know , like I had to become better at empathy. You know, I had to become a better listener. I think that certain things help me with that. I have to give a lot of credit to reco for the process of listening and hearing somebody's story and what they've gone through. So but I do think that this stuff, the battle against empathy and the battle against self awareness, which is the other one. Lack of expertise as a plus. Yes, I mean, these are just the tenets of fascism and making it work. So how do you fight that? I mean, obviously , you know, I used to do this line like what they're basically saying is empathy for suckers. Yeah . And you know, how you calibrate your empathy and how you use it and how you don't get drained by your own empathy or whether your empathy is real or you're really just in some sort of victim mode that is only feeling exhausted by the moral injustice of every day in this country right now . I think you have to protect yourself on some level to maintain , you know, a righteous anger and figure out really how you can use it and how you can best be of service to other people. But I think a lot of it, you know , and I'm guilty of this is like, how much are you really getting out and doing anything ? Right. You know, I mean you may feel a certain way and you may believe something is wrong and you know, you may post a post or it's send a check. Hashtag of Ism, I think. Yeah, yeah, whatever that is , you know, but are you present to really be of service and really help? And then when you get into that zone, if you are a sensitive person or a person who is full of empathy or broken in a certain way , then you can start beating yourself up for, you know, not being not doing more involved, not doing enough . And then, you know, you don't think you're doing stuff, that's really you are. I mean, you obviously have transformed lives through your podcast. I don't think you recognize I'm not saying this about me. You know, I feel like I'm always surprised that that making a difference on an individual level. If somebody says to me, you know, you know, I was depressed or you know, many people, you know, I've helped get sober or the way I've processed stuff or speaking out, you know, like Tig says, it does do something . You know, you I think you can do things without putting yourself in harm's way . How does this era end when you think about it? Because I've had to deal with all the tech oligarchs who have just seemed to have sucked up every bit of oxygen and all the juicy bits in our society . But how does it this end from your perspective? What the world? No, no. Probably in a blast. But how do you think about this time ending where this doesn't seem where we I mean, I think it's on the March because Elon, for example, is a good example of this, has turned into a villain when he wasn't necessarily, but has become that. At the same time, he's also about to become the world's richest person ever in history . How does it end? And Trump is sort of rotting away in front of our eyes I don't know how it ends because I don't know if you know if the agenda was to kill the spirit of the sixties, you know , and kill the progress that was made on a human level in this in a relatively democratic format . And the power of technology and the access that everyone has to your brain or to your life , and then the people in power, you know more about that stuff than I do . But I think I don't know how it ends, but we've got to stop, you know, volunteering for the brain fucking . Yeah And putting and it's not a good fuck . It's not a good fuck. No, no , it's just okay . Yeah . But you know, if you really think about, like, you know, today , 'cause I think about it all the time , it's all relative to the monster that you spend your day looking at your phone. It's all relative to that. I mean, that's everyone's point of access . And if you just go on the subway and it's like it's insane that nobody is looking at anybody . So I think sadly the way it ends is everyone just disappears into whatever the other side of that is chat bots and avatars and everything whatever. That said, when I something I do a lot and I think you should do it and I think it'd be excellent is when I'm walking down the street and someone's staring at their phone , I go up very close behind them and I go look up and everybody does it for a second. They know they do it. They're like, oh, I suck. Snap me out of it. Yeah, yeah. It was interesting. They go, I suck. And then at some point someone 's going to turn around and shoot me. But I feel so far I haven't been shot. Yeah, I tried to do a joke about like Denver seems to be really gland as a joke though about how like in an authoritarian country, what they really want is for you to, you know, keep your mouth shut and keep your head down . And it's so much easier with the phone. Yeah . That's a great joke. It always lands as a sort of like Like never not a big life. Maybe if you include brain fucking in there, it might work. Why do a lot of bits about that because I do think I'm sort of I'm just I'm working out this stuff you know for my,self. Because today like, like you just being on the train here culturally is kind of awesome to be on a subway. Yeah, the people you're surrounded by amazing. It's this is like this is a great example of democracy on a social level being up against each other. Yeah . Well, yeah, it's people like, you know, you got someone sitting on your lap. Yeah, yeah. And you're sort of like, narrate, okay, you know, and I just , you know, I'm trying you got to the phone , it's an addiction because it's a full spectrum of dopamine jerk off, right? So and you can spend and I know and I just share this as an addict