Future of the GOP and AI

You're a very good public servant, I have to say. Thank you. Although I wouldn't vote for you either. I would vote for you, to be fair. I'm not running. I'm just running my mouth . Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is North Carolina Republican Senator Tom Tillis. He's one of the very few Republicans willing to criticize the Trump administration right now. That's mainly because he's not running for re-election this year, in part because of criticisms from President Trump. Tillis has voiced skepticism about the administration's goals in Iran. He's refused to confirm President Trump's pick to head the Federal Reserve until the Justice Department drops an investigation into its current chair, Jerome Powell. And earlier this month, he also got a lot of attention for eviscerating now former Secretary of Homeland Security, Christy Gnome, during a Senate hearing. we're exceptional is we expect exceptional leadership. And you've demonstrated anything but that in the time that I've seen you responding to the emergency in North Carolina and across the southeast and acknowledging when mistakes are made But Tillis is careful not to criticize Trump himself. He says the problem is the people around the president giving him bad advice, whom President Trump hired, by the way, but that's another issue we'll talk about. And Tillis voted to confirm some of those very people, like Gnome, Defense Secretary Pete Heggseth, and FBI Director Cash Patel. I think Tom Tillis is super smart. He was an ex-business person. At the same time,, you know he's got the reputation of too late Tom because he wasn't saying these things, which I think he actually thought earlier. I think he's in a great position though to stop some of the nonsense and he's using it until he leaves office next January of 2027 when his term is up. It's a shame that people like him can't say what they want because he's actually very smart. I agree with him on very little. At the same time, I really do respect his intelligence. And so I was very excited to talk to him. All right. Let's get into my conversation with Tom Tillis. We've got two expert questions today. One from longtime Washington Defense Attorney Abby Lowell, who we've interviewed on this program and who's representing some of Trump's perceived enemies. He's also uh represented people in the Trump family, too. An interesting lawyer. The other is from a listener who's also one of Tillis' constituents. It's not every day we get a Republican on the show, so stick around . Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start? Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to. 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Backmarket is also on a mission to reduce the environmental toll that FastTech has on our planet as refurbished tech is proven to use less raw materials le,ave behind less waste, and create fewer carbon emissions than new, making their refurbish tech not only more affordable but more sustainable as well. Shop now at backmarket. com It's the family and friends event at Shoppers Drug Mart. Get 20% off almost all regular priced merchandise. Two days only. Tuesday, March 31st and Wednesday, April 1st. Open your PC Optimum app to get your coupon . Senator Tom Tillis, thanks for coming on on. Thank you. I like your swanky setup here in the Senate. Yeah, I like it. They've done a really good job during the Republican conference. Yeah, it's really nice. Um it's a good one. Um I w worked here for Senator S. I. when I was a child. Um and I I we did not have this. Anyway, um a note to listeners, we're taping this conversation late Thursday afternoon, so things may have changed by the time you're hearing it. But let's dive in, uh let's start with the war in Iran. It's something you talked about a little bit. Um, President Trump is sending conflicting messages about whether the war is ramping up or winding down, or we've won it, or they better talk to us. And Republicans are getting anxious, obviously. Congressman Mike Rogers, who chairs the House Armed Services Committee, Glass of the Pentagon, for not giving lawmakers enough information in these briefings. Almost a month into this conflict, talk about what's happening now in the realistic end. I don't think one's been articulated. And and quite honestly, the my response to the press over the last week, uh, when they've asked me if I'm getting briefed, I said it's less important for me to be briefed right now than the committees of jurisdiction. Right. But when you hear a chair of a committee of jurisdiction saying it's insufficient information, that is unacceptable. I am looking at this initiative in Iran through the lens of the uh War Powers Act.. Right And I'm willing to give my president a fair amount of latitude within sixty days. Um but that you we're almost at the 30 day mark now. Right. Right. And and so there has to be very clear strategic um objectives. You know, some of the tactical objectives obviously would have to be to the extent that we need to know them, would probably be done in a classified setting. But we need to state precisely what we're doing there. We know why we're there to begin with, but now we need to know why we're going to continue to be there or including considering uh having boots on the ground. I've got Marines from North Carolina and the eighty second Airborne and so now I'm gonna join the chorus of saying it's time to get us in the skiff, it's time to determine what's next. And you're only gonna get that before we go to an AUML. Because one of the things was a lot of Republicans off the record were saying, you know, fifteen days into this, it's too much. Sixty days is your breaking point? Or would you vote for a war powers resolution? I think if if we don't have clarity in at the sixty day mark, then you either are determining that you're ramping down over thirty days within the within the numbers of the war powers resolution, or you you're there for beyond that? And if you're there for beyond that, it is absolutely reasonable to expect that you have to have an authorization for the use of military force to legitimize this. And I think you will get it if you're clear on the objectives and you're clear on what we're trying to do there strategically and and you need support for the tactics that you believe are necessary to accomplish that strategic goal. And what would that mean for you? What would that mean for you to vote for a war powers resolution. Well the um I I think that we need to like we've had to deal with in other Middle East engagements, we just need to look at what the meets and bounds of an authorization would look like. And that's going to be fluid, but it's going to be necessary, or it'd be very, very difficult for me to support future action after the 60-day mark in the absence of that information. We just can't have these endless engagements. I mean, my goodness, Republicans ran on the concept of ending endless wars. And uh the last thing we want to do is appear to be hypocrites when we're confronted with the same sorts of challenges that uh we criticize Democrats for. Do you appear to be hypocrites at this moment? I don't think so yet. Okay. Because again, look, there I I do believe that Iran uh first I was a when I ran for the Senate, I was highly critical of Obama's JCPOA. I don't think it was sustainable. It was a part of that uh governing with the pen and the phone thing that I think administrations have had, including the the current administration. Um you want to have legitimacy with international engagements, you should get the Article I branch involved. Correct. And so the message now is just that. And we're gonna we're gonna give them some deference. I'm gonna give them some deference for uh the next thirty or so days. But if we don't have So when you think about that, what is it President Trump changing, saying we won, we're leaving, we're going, or is it Defense Secret uh War Secretary, Pete Heggsath? Where is the problem? Uh I don't know. Uh I I have to view Heggseth, the the Secretary of Defense as uh you know the person who's at the tip of the spear providing best military advice from professionals, but at the end of the day, he owns the work product. Okay. Um and I'll be judging, you know, how well he's doing based on the best advice Aaron Powell And what grade would you give him now ? Well I think we're too early to give him I I'll give it an incomplete because we simply um I I do believe that like the bombings from last year, it was good to degrade capabilities of the Iranians. They're no friend to be obliterated, but not. Yeah. Well it was semi obliterated, I guess. But you know you you that I I don't like using uh absolute words to describe complex things, but the president did. And I think that that's a part of what confuses people because you know I think people want to know, well my goodness, we thought we obliterated things. Now we're back and we've obliterated them again. Well if we've obliterated them again, why do we need ground truth? What what strategic goal is necessary post obliteration that puts US uh service members at risk. Senator Mark Warner about that. And he he was like, you know, only way to get rid of the things they're talking about is to have our troops there, you know, and uh it's obvious. But talk about a realistic conclusion, because uh regime chains seems unlikely at this point. And this is something I actually when I talked to Senator Warner, he said, absolutely not. These people are gonna stay this was before it was clear they weren't gonna they were gonna stay in Paris. But it he said in unstable regimes that's still in place is potentially even more dangerous. Aaron Powell Well that's that's what concerns me about the after. I mean you you could create if we're not careful uh with how we conclude this um uh we could create a more dangerous situation than we have today. Maybe less so on any immediate nuclear threat, but more so on having uh Iran's uh malign influence in in Hamas and Hezbollah and other organizations that they've supported internationally, they just turn that dial up if they're um if they're losing on the nuclear option. So I I think we there is a scenario where they become maybe counterintuitive since so much obliteration is going on. But um it could create a more dangerous uh situation if we don't handle the after properly. He's threatened to strike Iran's power plants, which are civilian infrastructure. If he does it, it would be a major escalation, right? And a possible war crime. It's against civilians, he decided to strike those power plants. Where would it leave us? And especially when they have other ways of attacking us in the Straits of Hormuz with drones, with small boats. And so we spend a million dollars on a missile that obliterates a fifty speaking obliterate a fifty thousand dollar drone. Well that's you know, I we have to look at uh we we should also view that threat if we follow if the United States follows through on hitting civilian infrastructure. Um I don't know what the current sentiment is among the Iranian people, but you could begin to alienate those who would like nothing more than to see regime change when you start killing mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, children. So they've got to be very very, careful with that. And like you said, they've got to be very cognizant of the fact that we could be moving into violation of the law of war. Um so we've got to make, you know, the generals uh in the Pentagon get this. I hope that they're the ones who are trying to look around corners for the president to understand the second third order effects. I think I believe that's what I I would be shocked if uh in a brief before the decision was made for the second incursion, if someone said one of the first things that the Iranians are gonna do is close the Strait of Hormuz. That should not have been a shock to anybody. I was fully expecting it. Sure. Um in fact to a certain extent, I was expecting it in the first incursion last year. Um so hopefully those with stars on their shoulders are gonna win the day in terms of the path forward. Because if they don't, we're doing it at our own peril. Mm-hmm. Do you think they will? Uh I'm hopeful that they will. And I think that uh it's concerning to me when you have a House chair of a committee of jurisdiction saying he's not getting enough information. Because most of these generals have no problem with going into the SCIF and outlining their plans. Um so that makes me oh you know I'm an overly skeptical person anyway, but that makes me a little bit concerned about who's actually calling the shots and advising the president. Or getting to the president. That's fair. Right. Trevor Burrus So President Trump has been pressuring the Senate to pass the voter ID law known as the Save America Act. It would require proof of citizenship to register vote. You've said the bill doesn't have the votes to pass and you oppose getting rid of the filibuster for that. And that's exactly what President Trump wants. Senate Republicans are very clear that filibuster isn't going anywhere. Why haven't you all been able to persuade him. I don't know. The pres the president and I still uh I think I mentioned this to you uh to the group when you and I were together uh the first time the president and I still have a good relationship. I've made it very clear to him that there are no circumstances that I would support uh nuking the filibuster because the we're gonna be here after his administration's gone. It will do irreparable harm to the institution of the Senate and I think by extension the US and shame on the Democrats for trying to nuke the filibuster after they signed a letter with me telling President Trump one that we would never nuke the filibuster. Hopefully they'll go back to their uh roots uh and uh and defend it in the future because now that's the argument. We need to do it because they will. It's a irrational argument from but I um I I think one thing about the Save Act that just blows my mind is mo d you wanna know how many uh US senators are representing states that have voter ID? I don't know. So uh we don't have seventy-two red states. That's a mix of red states and blue states. You could argue about whether or not they're up to the standards that we would like for them to be. I'd have no problem with laying down a bill that says these are the federal standards. If you achieve them, then you get funding for completing your elections. If you don't, then that money will be used to audit your elections. That's a way to actually address for the handful of states that may not move forward. But there are not votes to get this done. It won't achieve the sixty vote threshold and there is no path for the nuclear option. It's solving a problem that doesn't exist. Yeah, but but the reality is I don't know why people uh it it's become such an irrational partisan divide in my feels like trying to stop people from voting, right? Uh I was Speaker of the House when we passed voter ID in North Carolina. Um and we use the have a documents, things that you could use as a replacement for it. I got criticized by the right for doing that. Uh we even agreed to uh to pay I think at the time it was estimated eight dollars to give somebody a government issue idea if they don't. I mean this is empowering people. If you were going to give people an idea, a lot of it is they don't have an idea or they have to change their name or they don't have a pass. Passwords are hundred Well, they need to be smart. But I, you know, I think that some of the real problems that I have with the underlying language in the bill has to do with absentee balloting that's working great in red states, like North Carolina. And if you if you get rid of all but extreme cases for absentee balloting, you're gonna have an enormously negative impact in Alaska, in Montana, and a number of other red states. Right. Senator Murkowski. So there's a side of me that wonders if this was all just theater to nuke the filibuster rather than really putting in good, solid, uh uh uh durable voter ID. Which I believe we should have. He would like to nuke the filibuster. So what does he say to you when you say uh I'm not doing that? Uh the president I've never had really a a pitched discussion at all, even with the discussions or disagreements that we have. But I'm just saying, guys, you you're gone in twenty twenty eight. Um we they who are the people who are gonna be here are gonna have to pick up the pieces. And as a business person, I said, do you all have any earthly idea how damaging the US going from making it really difficult to do something bad or do something good with the sixty vote threshold to having massive swings and regulatory tax policy every two, four, or six years from a business for you would get a complete di I would discount. I I I advise clients on setting up operations. And and I would take away the premium. People are willing to pay a premium to set up shop in the United States because of the rule of law and uh and and the level of certainty that comes with how difficult it is to change uh change the law That goes away. And so that diminishes our global competitiveness that I believe a bedrock of that is the exact way the Article I branch is structured today. So Trump said this week that he wants to tie his voter ID legislation to the deal to open the Department of Homeland Security. It's been shut down for more than a month, speaking of chaos. Talk a little bit about this . Oh I don't think it makes any sense. It takes something that's already uh impossible in terms of passing the SAVE Act in its current form, and making something that we must get done equally impossible. So let's just separate I know the president's frustrated. And by the way, I I had this with a Democrat governor and a Republican governor. I don't mind the president trying to make his branch the steward, he is the ultimate steward of his branch, as powerful as possible. I don't mind that. What I mind is people not being good stewards of the Article I branch on something that they know is critically important to the functioning of this great nation. And so, you know, let's set save aside and let's talk about uh DHS. Well, look, the the operation, and this is where the Democrats have to to to acknowledge that the operations that they are trying to defund are not gonna uh want for funding for a good two and a half or three years. The big beautiful bill gave them the baseline funding to build the wall and to do the sort of operations that ICE needs to do. So now we're kind of holding TSA, the Coast Guard. I had somebody ask me, a reporter coming over here, what do you think about a unanimous consent for TSA? I said, number one, I've got to believe some Democrat pick one that's not up until 2030 will object to it. Okay. Uh number two, it just means that now the focus will be on, I would say, the Coast Guard, who's in the Strait of Hormouths. Uh and there they're the only people in that region right now. The other uh armed services are being paid and they're not. That will become the next story. So the bottom line is we need to get the funding bill done. Um and we uh should not leave Washington. This will this will come out after probably after this is resolved, but we should not leave Washington until we do get it done. And whether that's through administrative action, through an act of Congress, this funding needs to get done. Uh I believe so. Now the questi again, the question is it's is it through an act of Congress that maybe embraces some of the reforms? Uh or is it through administrative action where they have the authority to move some resources around? Uh I don't have a problem. The problem that I have, if you've been on the border, for example, I've done a several border tours in the middle of the night, and I've had I've witnessed encounters with people who are subsequently um uh proven to been members of cartel, of course they should have their mask up then. If they're riding through the streets of Minneapolis between meetings, absolutely not. I think there's a happy median. But for for the people saying their mask should always be down, really Yeah. That's that's the world I've chosen to live in. I don't think that that's fair for law enforcement. So there's got to be a balance and no other law enforcement wears it. None of us none of the rest of us are wearing those masks to hide ourselves. Well, that's right. But you're also not going into a place where th the other argument here is everybody is casting everybody that works in IC isE bad people. The vast majority of them are good people. There are mothers and fathers, there's their brothers and sisters who go to work every day in a dangerous job, and when they're in dangerous settings with people who contract killers and murder people, then I think that they deserve that s extra piece of uh protection. Trevor Burrus But not everywhere. But not everywhere. No, I get it. I get it. I just feel like if military doesn't wear it, police don't wear it. Judges, judges. You you or I actually believe that there's something to be said for uh judge more judges protection because they've been politicized. Remember when Chuck Shermer said we'll unleash a whirlwind on the Supreme Court. So that became standard uh that the Article III is in play now. But I I bet you wouldn't like to be in a court and have a judge with a mask. 100 %. We'll be back in a min ute. Support for this show comes from Framer. If you're a business owner, you know that a website should help your business grow. 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Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Quince.com. That's Q U I N C E dot com slash Kara K A R A for free shipping and three hundred and sixty-five day returns. Quince dot com slash K ara Let me go through a couple things. You recently went viral for a brutal takedown of former DHS Secretary Christine Gnome during the Senate hearing. No, it went viral, but yeah, I do remember the meeting. Yeah, I had you had a chart. That was great. I love a chart. And you voiced confidence in her replacement, Oklahoma Senator Mark Wayne Mullen. Talk a little bit about what happened there and also when it comes to immigration, the administration isn't changing its goal to deport millions of people, a million people in one year. Is it meaningfully different from your perspective under Mullen? It will be. I I believe it will be. Actually, you were asking me about the Bolo. Um it represents the Lumby tribe. I'll give you a good example of the kind of character that uh the kind of character that uh Mark Wayne Mullen possesses. Mark Wayne Mullen is an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation. But when he was even in the House, he decided to vote for Lumbee recognition because he believes he studied it and he believes it was wrong. So he was willing to go up against his own tribe and the politics of it because he believed it was the right thing to do. I believe he's gonna carry that same sort of uh thought process into his new role. And I also believe he will project that thought process on any advisors from the White House that are at odds with what he believes is the right thing to do. I think it you know it seems like there was a fair amount of evidence that uh the prior Secretary Gnome uh had a lot that Stephen Miller had a lot of influence. I think that Mark Wayne will listen to all comers, but I don't see Mark Wayne losing many arguments or differences of opinion uh if those two are at odds with each other on what's best to do for Homeland Security. I also think that Mark Wayne is gonna let FEMA be FEMA. Get the right leadership in there, set it and forget it. It is a part of Homeland Security. One of the reasons I got mad at that hearing was an hour before the hearing, after a month of waiting, I was told that they were not gonna give me information on the operation in Charlotte. Yep. And I'm going, that told me all I needed to know about how poorly the operation was executed in Charlotte. Because if you had 500 encounters and 200 of them were people who had criminal records, dangerous criminal records. I mean, Washington loves embarrassing politicians, right? And particularly some of the people in this administration. If they had that evidence, that just made it clearly it was a resounding success, I would have gotten a letter an hour before the hearing saying you're not going to get it. Right. And you don't think he'll be pulled around by Stephen Miller. And do you do you think Miller has had a deleterious impact on the Peter Peter? I think Stephen uh Stephen Miller, I I just feel like I've told the president, I've told other people, I said, look, this this guy is a a surfer. I mean he he surfed into DC with Jeff Sessions and quickly surfs onto some other wave. I mean, does anybody really believe Stephen Miller's gonna be the curator of the Trump Museum or the Trump Library when we're done here? He's gonna surf onto something else. I don't appreciate what really made my private um conflict become public with Miller is when he went on TV and said it is a position of the United States that Greenland will become a part of the U.S. He doesn't speak for the Article I branch. He doesn't actually speak for the American people. He speaks for one branch that represents the American people. And that's what made me feel like he was uh skating way outside his of his lanes. And that made me angry because I also, you know, I'm the Republican leader of the Senate NATO Observer Group, have been since 2018. And I know how those words are perceived in capitals across Europe. And I wanted to make it very clear. He didn't speak for me or the vast majority of the members of Congress on this particular issue. Right. I think you're saying he's over his skis. Yeah. He's got his way over. on lots of issues though So go back, be an advisor, but you know, stop enjoying watching yourself on TV. That's not a part of your job. Very quickly, uh Kevin Warsh, when is he will he be appointed? The DJ's investigation at Jerome Powell and the renovation system is still ongoing, although they're losing in court. And now we've subsequently heard even prosecutors stipulate it that uh they didn't really have much evidence of criminal DOJ. But you know, I go back, I'm going guys back in the back. I was at Tristan. I was at the alleged scene of the crime, right? So what more? I mean it's you got a prosecutor insisting a crime occurred in spite of the fact that the majority uh everybody who spoken on the issue said no crime was occurred. So I say all that to say until that case is carried through, maybe more evidence comes up that they can convince me. And get reported out of committee and there's no path to discharge. Trump seemed to double down today. He said uh the guy whose interest rates are too high. It seems to be related to interest rates and not to get him pressured. This guy is not to be pressured. Trevor Burrus It relates to uh Fed independence. Which is exactly why on Sunday night I took the definitive position that I did to make sure on Monday morning when markets opened up they didn't since the existence of the Fed that the Fed serves at the pleasure of the president. It doesn't. What I like about what Warsh is saying is you're gonna still have independence with respect to the dual mandate. But there are other things that go on in the Fed that I think we do need more transparency. So I like what he wants to bring. And now because some prosecutor with a dream decided to go forth with subpoena in an investigation, I'm in the position unless it's completed, I got two hundred and eighty-three days left, and I'm simply not going to vote for it. He seems to have run out of fox, I think, as they say. Yeah. Yeah. He seems to have. So just very briefly, you're you're not voting for Casey Means, the next Surgeon General, as you've said I'm a lean no if she gets reported out of committee. Kara, I've said uh on noms, I'm gonna defer if if you get an ananimous Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Right. If you get one, then you know, and I and I talked to members who were probably on the fence, I said, look, if if you own some of these nominees vote no, I'll be there to back you up, but I'm not gonna be the lone uh person uh in in these cases where I'm deferring to members on the committee of jurisdiction. Okay. Uh and now in this case, uh the NAM hasn't moved forward. So I I that that suggests to me there may be some concerns on the committee. You said the resume puts you on alert. Yeah, she uh sh she did not impress in the hearing. I know. And the resume did not uh you know, did not look like the kinds of resumes we've seen before in terms of surgeon generals, uh but from either side of the aisle. So you think done? Where is it gonna go? Um, I think if we're what are we three weeks past the nomination hearing and we're about to go on recess? Generally speaking, any time a major nom like this is in committee for more than a month or six weeks, it probably means ultimately they get withdrawn. But we''llll see see.. We So let's move on very quickly within because I know we have limited time. Right now you're one of the few Republicans willing to challenge the administration. Your critics call you too late, Tom. Do you know that? I couldn't care less. For number one, you know what, the the the the problem about either the liberals most of the time that's the liberals that just wanna, you know, um uh attack any any conservative, you know, even a right of center conservative like Yeah, because conservatives never do that these days. Months into my freshman term as a brand new state legislator, I broke with the Republican conference to negotiate the first ever renewable portfolio standard in the Southeast. These folks should stop. They're either lazy or they're dumb or they're both. They ought to buy it. But you you were you are liberated from the pressures of running for reelection. Do you feel that way or like I've said I've been look I I got in a dust up with uh Trump won over filing a bill that could only allow him to fire more over for costs. So it's not like this is new. But like I've said time and time again, I forget who the talking head is on uh C-SPAN, but I think he he consistently wears a plaid jacket. I need to know his name. But he almost always prefaces a comment that I make about well, of course he's retiring. Why why is that even relevant? Because the reality might feel a little more free. No, but but the point is I would s uh I have expressed my concern in the past. I no longer have to worry about what language I use to communicate it because I don't have to go through the cost benefits. Clearer than some of your colleagues. Because I have to tell you, when I talk to some of your colleagues off the record, the Republicans, they're much more critical of Trump. They're dead. And in politics, that's losing elections. I have no problem with people who are running for reelection or managing the complexities of their state to pull back. Um I believe that they would be there if things became existential. But it's silly. That's what I'm saying to this talking head dude. It's like, of course, I don't have to go through that cost-benefit analysis. I don't have to wonder if I say it this way or in one sentence, am I now gonna have to raise 10 million more dollars and buy that many more gross rating points to explain what I meant. Right, right. So it's not that I wouldn't say it. have that cost benefit analysis. To be fair, a lot of speaking of martyrs, Republicans criticizing Trump on their way out the door has become a theme. It has. I mean you had former Senators Ben Sass, Mitt Romney, Jeff Flake, former House Speaker Paul Ryan, Congresswoman Lee Janey, Marjorie Taylor Green. You know what they all have in common? And Congressman uh Don Bacon. Do you know what they all have in common? Yeah. That they've criticized the President, and I've never criticized the Congress. Yes, I wanted to ask about that. Because look, I mean all these can I can I just point that I that was really interesting when we met. You you you aim it mainly at the administration and advisors and not himself. And you've repletely said you think he's getting bad advice. Though as a former business person at Blue Chip Corporation Well what else the difference is I believe there's some great people, the majority. One of the things I've done when I talk to a lot of people in the administration. And I feel like I have very good relationships with a number of people in the cabinet in the administration. I say I'll let them know off the record who I'm talking about, but I'm not talking about you. I mean, that's that's a way of saying I'm I've got a problem with people. I'm in the unique position of having spent almost uh more than twenty-five years in top-tier management consulting. You have. And 20 years in legislative politics, including leadership roles, particularly as Speaker of the House, and turning the state around. So I'm in a unique position to really help or maybe just intuitively look around corners. And I'm expecting people in the White House who are similarly situated to use that experience to warn the president about second and third order effects. And I feel like there's two ways to give the president bad advice. One is coming up with a really lousy idea and selling the president on it. Kind of like uh Stephen Miller saying any immigration reform is bad. I think the president would like to do immigration reform. I believe Stephen Miller is one of the people that are preventing that from happening. Another one is the president comes up with a really bad idea and you don't have the guts to tell him it's a bad idea. And that's what I'm pointing to. I expect more out of these people than what's that? Not from The president at the end of the day needs people that have the courage to let him know what he doesn't know. And then if you start seeing uh if I start seeing more signals from the White House saying, Tom, we did our best, we went to the math, we agree with you. Then maybe I've got to start looking at the front. Bill Barr, chairman of second. Mark Millie. Yes. Did you uh watch uh Spinal Tap back in the day? Yes, I did. Well I I said you the uh sec def were like the drummer in spinal tap. They they kind of blew up after every major performance. But um so yeah, I get that. But that uh maybe that's why some people are holding back, but you can hold back. And the reason why I would suggest that they do it if for no other reason their own personal reputation. One of the reasons why I like Warsh, you know, as the the future fed chair is I think his reputation and the work that he has done is more important in him to him than any sort of uh alignment with the president. I don't think I don't believe he'll be a sycophant. Are there too many sycophants in the White House? I do believe we have some folks that gosh boss, that's a great idea. And you know in their heart of hearts it's not. You're being dishonest to the president. Okay. When you know in your heart and in your mind.' Its not a good idea, and you say great idea, boss. You're being dishonest to the president and you're being dishonest. You know, who doesn't like I mean I I don't really like self-affirming stuff but I do too. I like my you you'll go into my office sometimes and you'll hear yelling behind my doors. And half the time it's the staff yelling at me. That's the sort of stuff that I reward. I want people to stretch me and grow me and inform me. And the president needs people that are gonna stretch him, grow him and inform me. And if not, walk out guys. Life is good on the outside. If you have any kind of experience, you should be able to get a Yeah I know it. I'm just saying they're they're letting the President down and they're diminishing what could otherwise be a strong legacy if they don't get their act together. And there are political consequences. The thing we have to talk about uh right now uh we're not doing too well. And and what would typically be a negative election, I think is far more so because we're not executing. I'm gonna get them because you know, if he's if saying he's giving getting bad advice makes him a passive bystander, he doesn't seem to be that. But ever so we get a question from an outside expert. Yours comes from longtime Washington defense attorney Abby Lowell, who's represented people in the Trump family and also obviously Tisha James and many others, Don Lemon. Let's listen to it. Senator Dillis, so good to talk with you. I have this question. You've been one of the very few Republicans to have pushed back on President Trump or folks in his administration on almost any iss ue. The founders' entire premise was that there would be three coequal branches of government to check the power of the other bran ch. Has Congress abdicated its role when the majority in Congress and the president are of the same par ty? And will this check and balance only be able to occur when there is the so called divided govern ment? And lastly, since you have decided to leave this very important ro le, who will you hope, or who will you ask to play the role you have played over this last year in the future? Great question. Well, let's start with the um the foundational question. When I've been here when Washington was completely controlled by Democrats. I saw the same behavior. Let's not pretend like questioning the president is this uh or failing to question the president is this new thing under Trump. I saw it under Biden, I saw it under Obama. So let's be real. In fact, back I think it was when we either passed the uh uh Respect for Marriage or uh Safer Communities Act, I had a couple of Democrats come up to me and high-five me, he said, thank you for being bipartisan. I said, I appreciate that. I'm looking forward to you doing that someday. Um and they go, Well, we did. We voted on the bill. I said, My God, you had 50 members, 51 of your members vote on the bill. That's not a tough vote for you. And so I would ask uh people to show me an example of somebody who was a Tom Tillis in the Biden administration on the Democrat side. There are so many people that the their memories only happen to be as recent as the election. And they're gone because the Democratic Party turned their back on them and tried to replace them. Kirsten Cinema was absolutely recruited. He's a Republican now, though. But um but I I'm just saying look, it it exists in every camp. Uh and and the ones who did it, who actually Kirsten wanted to continue her career, was rewarded by having a primary run against the city. She's got a whole lot of other problems. But all I'm saying is everybody needs to look in the mirror when they ask this question. It's not a Republican phenomenon. It's a bipartisan phenomenon. Is it better to have a divided government with Congress and a different thing? The Article One branch is safest when you have divided government. And who would you think is going to take up your sword, I guess? I don't know. There's people out there that are independent. Uh I think a lot of it will come down, you know, state the the states matter, you know, you're more likely, you know, in this election cycle, we're at risk of maybe losing some of the more moderate states, so it's gonna be less likely it comes from the usual suspects. Look, I represent the people I represent the North people of North Carolina. People ask me what I I I love North Carolina. The reason I've lived in it since nineteen ninety-eight, I love it. But I also love the politics of North Carolina, where forty percent of the people are independent. They're not affiliated with either party. And then the remainder are evenly divided. So when people ask me, you know, are you I I said, look at my state, look at my positions, and plus or minus 10 percent is in complete alignment with the priorities of the people of North Carolina. So is there anybody in Congress I know you consider very independent in the GOB? I think you know I think you're looking I I don't want to name names because then you put targets on 'em. Um and uh and you know, force the people go around and attack 'em. But th there are four or five members that I think given the right situation will be doing the very same kinds of things that I'm doing tod ay. We'll be back in a min ute. Support for this show comes from Shopify. Starting a business has never been easy, but these days there are so many moving parts that it can feel absolutely terrifying to take the leap. Thankfully, there's Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the U.S., from household names like rare beauty and skims to brands just getting started. Shopify can help you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style with hundreds of ready-to-use templates. 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My center, my soul is gone. From Academy Award Nominee Taylor Sheridan. Mine is not a family design to withstand tragedy. Starring Academy Award nominee Michelle Pfeiffer and Golden Globe nominee Kurt Russell. The worry is what you do next, you will have as much life to live as you'll allow yourself. The Madison. New series. Now streaming only on Paramount P lus. So let's talk about where the Republican Party is headed in the few years. You say you're not trying to undermine their problems with your criticism of the administration. Exactly. A new Fox News poll, and I'm using Fox uh specifically, shows Trump's approval rating dropping to forty-one percent. Others are even lower. There's also sort of a growing problem of extremism with some young voters. The Washington Post had a great story today after the assassination of Charlie Kirk, white supremacists like Nick Fuentes increasingly seem to be filling the vacuum. Now, Democrats have problems too, but let's talk about the radicalization of the young right and what are the key things in this election coming up are you most worried about? Matter of fact, I had a young lady uh who had to be a part of the young left try to uh uh get me a gotcha question on the way out the door. Now you're talking to somebody who as speaker passed the first only uh restitution for forced sterilization victims that was invariably imposed against black people. I come up here, I write a hundred and thirty-seven year wrong with the Lumby Nation, I get them recognized that they're not a big through Jim Crow., et cetera So but I have this young extreme equivalent to what you're talking about, the radical right, asking me some nonsense question, trying to paint what she had perceived, I guess, as he's a white Republican, so he must be a racist. Nick Fuentes' popularity is not good branding for neither is No, no. What I'm saying though is I think we we need to just be clear that we're probably in equal ratios of the radicalized, if we want to call it young or whatever. Having said that, the the people who are in the left or right of center of politics that are registered are independent voters, do not like chaos, they do not like bullies, and they do not like um the kind of elevated language that we have today. And I you know, it was in two thousand and nine I was convinced that the bullying and the pen and the phone and you know getting Obamacare in spite of any Republican vote. I was convinced when Time magazine was saying this is the end of conservatives, the beginning of liberal progressivism, to quit my job because I believed that the Obama administration was going to overreach and that I was going to get us a majority and probably become Speaker of the House. That happened. And it happened when everybody thought that they were they were riding the wave. We're almost guilty of doing the same thing. We read more into the election results than we should have. We're driving down a mandate that our base loves, and much of a lot of it I agree with the what. I I've I have problems with the how, but it has alienated independent voters. It has. And independent voters, the only way you win statewide elections in North Carolina. So you're worried mostly about the independent votes. I'm very worried about the independent voter. And I'm worried about the suburban voters, the right and left of center. You know, in in my race, I got about ten percent of the Democrat vote in both of my two elects. Um I think now you'd be lucky to get one or two percent. Uh of the Democrat vote. Yeah, oh yeah. So in that regard, we have two more questions. We have an e a second expert question for you comes from one of our listeners who happens to be one of your constituents. My name is Bob Thomson. I'm a native of North Carolina and a North Carolina voter. I'm a retired businessman living in Charlotte. My question to the Senator has to do with the fact that our country can no longer get things done. And the major reason for that is that our politicians won't work across party lines to make things happen. It's really gotten embarrassing, quite frankly. Half our population is left behind by our economy, our infrastructure is failing, including our once admired air traffic control system and AI is coming and we have no plan. I'm old enough to remember a time when politicians did cross the aisle and worked with each other. They even held a rogue president to account once. So my question to the senator is what has to happen for our country to get working again and for politicians to work with each other instead of, you know, adopting the my way or the highway approach . We're rapidly losing ground not only to our rivals but our enemies. I look forward to hearing the senator's respon se. That was really sel thoughtful. Well, uh it was. Uh and he lives in my neck of the woods in North Carolina. Uh uh first and foremost, we gotta preserve the filibuster. That will ruin that will destroy bipartisanship forever if we do it. Okay. Because all you'll because because the the basis of both parties will will absolutely vote you out. If you give on and so um I think I I think first and foremost we need to get the Democratic Party and now the Republican Party is litmus test are asking primary opponents, are they for nuking the filibuster? So number one, I don't know what his party affiliation is, go back to your Democrat or GOP meetings and say this is nonsense. And uh then I think be a part of an organization that remembers the people that produce bipartisan results and reward them and go after the ones who are actually making it almost impossible to get done. But Kara, I'll tell you, you're a you're a smart person. You do your research. You you go back and find a time. Um and in the Biden administration, I was one of the leads on Respect for Marriage, Bipartisan Safe for Communities Act. I was uh the sixth person to join the discussions to to the gentleman's point about the uh bipartisan infrastructure bill. You go find a time uh where Democrats passed bill that many bills of that substance when the rolls were reversed and they had to walk the so-called plank to add to uh uh to Republicans to do it. So a part of it, again, I don't know his party affiliation, a part of it is going back and saying, can you at least do what the Republicans did in the Biden administration, Democrats, when the roles are reversed, can we can we start telling everybody that compromise is good. Good can come out of it. Well, the language enduring legislation happens. Right. Well, I agree. And so was the so was the language. And you know, frankly, even uh I mentioned this with Bayer. The reason, you know, these were historic bills, these bipartisan bills. You know why I didn't go to the White House for the signing ceremony? Particularly for the two that we led on? It's because I was always wondering if I did there would be some partisan statement at the signing ceremony and in all three cases there were a Democrat president instead of thinking everybody for bipartisanship and moving on and then maybe saving that comment for a party rally. He says it when he has Republicans present. But has that political capital. Trump made nine of those today, for example, the cabinet. So what ha this guy is saying, I don't really care. What's going to bring it back? Well I I think the uh I think independence voters rewarding independent members is how you get back. So get independent voters could do this country a great service by saying, you know what, I'm going to set aside some of my ideological priorities for a while and reward behavior. Just say, because if you have enough people thinking independently, then if you're an extreme right or extreme left, this isn't for you. Don't waste your time. But for the remainder of the majority of the country, you'll see things that'll swim left and right of center that will be done on a more consistent basis I think you know look uh for this uh Congress, you know, any sort of major bipartisan bills are are all but probably impossible to get done. Function of time for one thing. You know, after June, I mean, it's going to be all about the campaign. So what are you most concerned about with the midterms coming up? Uh I am concerned at as a Republican and I and I became concerned that's why voice books are the same. Now the Senate's in play now. Um I I believe I I think we we're gonna be okay with the Senate, uh, you know, as long as we uh we uh continue to support our incumbents. Um but uh I believe uh, you know, that we could we could net a loss. I don't think this is a year where any reasonable expectation of gaining uh numbers exists. But um I'm you know, I'm going down and and uh working and gonna work in the trenches with the state legislatures. I think one of the things is beginning to be a report is very important. Um are the number of state legislatures across the country that many of them gained a majority back in the same time frame that I became speaker, starting to look at their suburban districts, ones with uh either right of center Republicans independents that are at risk. Tom Beach just shifted. That's exactly right. So I'm going down uh what is the reddest flag right now for you in this uh for the Republicans. The uh basically the evaporation of independent support. The only independents that are supporting us right now are the ones who are right of the most extreme MAGA movement. They're the only ones that will support us because they got nowhere to go. But that's a fraction of the independent base. For the most part, eighty eighty-five percent of the independent bases, they're either going to stay at home or they're going to vote for what they consider to be It looks like they're voting. Well, you got voter intensity too. Democrat voter intensity is through the roof. You had 125,000 more Democrats vote in the primary than Republicans. Uh Roy Cooper got 125,000. He got 125,000 more votes than all Republicans in that Republican primary. We got to get our folks enthusiastic and we also have to get a fair share of the independence. I know Roy. I'd have a uh a non-alcoholic beer with them, but I'm not gonna vote for them. Okay. Yeah, I will I think he knows. Last question. Um when you think about what happens post-Trump. Wo youuld come back to politics? Would you and what are you going to do next? What is your your business person what do you think your best contribution is? I I um you know one thing one thing that I want to do is really take a look at an organization that like the gentleman uh in the question could come to and say, if you're serious about you know supporting people and encouraging bipartisan behavior. Then there needs to be an organization that provides the air cover for the people that do that. Everybody high five signing ceremony is like, Whoa, sucks for you. You got a primary. Uh, we there needs to be an organization in place that rewards behavior, not specific legislative outcomes. There also needs to be an organization that goes after the far left and the far right for being the antithesis of that behavior. So that's gonna be an unpaid project. I don't want to make any money. I'm not gonna be a registered lobbyist. I don't want to make any money in the two of you or political operations. But you know, I I had uh equal amount of time at Price Waterhouse, Price Waterhouse Coopers and IBM, uh and technology, media and entertainment, telecommunications, banking, and uh um and utilities. So I'm probably gonna go and and technology, AI is interesting me. I know that's an interest, uh, an area of interest for you. Um I think that that industry is gonna need some help to really get maintain our innovation advantage that we have today. And that's an area where short of lobbying, I think we can get the industry to provide an answer to a lot of the questions about governance um and and just making sure that we keep the U.S. ahead of all other the pacing trip. You go let me ask you the last question. You go into the technology industry, what do you do for them? Well the first thing I know. Well the first thing you do for them is say guys you gotta get your act together on all of your platforms with respect to child safety and to other kinds of um bad outcomes that are they're being well documented. You know, we've this is a great week to have this discussion because you've seen the judgments. You've got to make this a safe place I have no problem, incidentally, uh with having uh significant Australia like controls on people under sixteen using the internet. Unless it has we agree. Yeah, it it it it has to have some uh some sort of a f uh a uh uh qualification process for a child to get online. Um then you gotta go beyond that. My goodness you know, I I heard on Judiciary Committee years ago,. well Well it's so hard to do this. You can't tell me it's hard now. It's a matter of margins and will. And you need to plow some of the margins back into getting this right. Because if you don't, then it's going to slow down our tech sector. I want my tech sector to survive and thrive. I want Dumbtown Page Challenge. No, because they're gonna be around. I I I think that the difference with the cigarette company, the cigarette company Mulman is recognizing it's gonna be the end of an industry, except for the fact that the uh tobacco plant has a lot of other scientific uses, fortunately. But um no, I I they're gonna be around. The the question is who the eight hundred pound gorillas are gonna be. I want them to be U.S. based tech firms but operating in a way that is safe for children, that's safe for business, and address as many of the malign uses of their platforms as possible. Because there's a political Look, we got to get our act together because state on act uh state actors and now any terrorist organization, you know, now I mean it used to be you had to be a nation state to have the kind of scale to be disruptive in any other society. Hell, now all you need is a smart dude with a computer or or or or woman. Um and that's a uh that's a frightening prospect. Um and so they have to get it under control. They have enjoyed great success. I'm glad they've returned value to the shareholders. Their shareholders should also know that they want to be aligned with companies that are responsible in addressing some of the the negative outcomes that but for these platforms would have never existed. So you're going into AI? Of course you are. I don't know what I'm gonna do. I spend more time with my wife and spend more time with my grandchildren, but I'm sixty five. I think I'll probably got some time.