The Future of Democracy and AI

We can imagine church in a lot of way. One could be a pyramid with a big boss on the top and he sayays something and everything happenens. That's not the church that I know, especially because I belong to Francisan. and we are used to say as a joke, we more than an order, we are a disorder. that you know, we have a lot of different processes. Aittle Catholic humor for you. Yeahah. Yeah ye, it's Catholic. It's for everyone. There is space also for someone like me So Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Box Media podcast Network. This is onn with Kara Swisher and I'm Cara Swisher. My guest today is Paulo Bernanti, a Franciscan friar, Catholic priest, and one of the world's leading experts on the ethics of artificial intelligence. Father Bernanti has advised the Italian government, the UN, and two Popes on technology, and some of his insights are reflected in Pope Leo's encyclical on AI magnificent humanity In that formal letter to Catholics around the world, Leo called for an artificial intelligence that serves humanity, not one that would take the place of human intelligence and creativity. But Nanti has a background in engineering and teaches moral theology as a university professor. He also has a healthy skepticism of tech oligarchs, as the Pope does, who stand to profit from AI I'd love to talk to the Pope obviously about this topic, but I've known about Bernande for a while, and I know he's had a real impact on the thinking of the church, which has been bubbling upwards since before this Pope with Pope Francis, and the idea of what technology does to society. I think it's critical that the church and other leaders have a role in this. and in fact, it'sed out has more of an impact on Silicon Valley and their thinking than I thought possible. And I'm glad to see it. I am a laps Catholic, but I really do respect what the Pope is doing now. and it almost gets me back into the church. We'll see. Our expert question today comes from computer scientist and AI ethicist Yoshua Bengio. so stick around Support for this show comes from Odu Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow None of them ever talked to each other That's where OdU comes in, an all in one business management software that brings every part of your business together. fromom sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system Try it today for free at odu dot com slash Kara. That's o d oo dot com slash Kara I'm pretty confident talking into a mic. Hey, I'm doing it right now, but home projects, I second guess everything Is that noise normal? Is that water damage? And who should I even call? That's where thumbtack comes in. Uload a photo or voice notote, and their AI powered search helps diagnose the issue and match you with the right top rated local pro. Instead of second guessing or searching for hours, you get clarity and can hire the right pro with confidence If your next home project, try Thumbtack. They know homes. Hire the right pro today Heat up your fourourth of July at the Home Depot with our wide variety of grills under three hundred dollars and make every gathering one to remember. Give your outdoor space a glow up. Whatever your budget is, the savings on seasonal plants starting at five dollars. With the grill fired up and your backyard set to perfection, you'll be able to invite friends and family over to kick off the party. Start celebrating with low prices guaranteed at the Home Depot. Chriceices Marary storic excuss Picey Home Depot com sl priceesash for detail It is Father Benanti, thanks for coming on on Thank you for having me Just for people don't know, you're a Franciscan Friar, a moral theologian, and you also advised Pope Leo XVI on AI. I believe you advised Previous Pope also, correct on technology issues. Yeah, much more Pope Francis, Pope Lio is now shaping the Ka in a way that is desired. So we are in the meantimes Right, right, right exactly. So talk about why is the rise of AI a faith and religion issue and you had been talking about this before. Well, you know, there is something that happened before in the church one than fifty years ago with An in Sigiga that the name was Rereum Novarum pushed out by another pope and the name was Leo I think he named himself for that reason. I have a feeling. Yes, is said day one. Is a day one. Like Luther thirI faceed this idea technology pingking on the human, I'm seeing that AI as doing the same things. Right. Explain Pope Leo XII what he was discussing at the time. Yeah, you know, that's the point. It's interesting things because it's not steam power, the problem. The problem is that steam power was producing a shift of power in society and a leverage of things that was pushing certain number of human beings in a really uncomfortable situation, in a way in which we can define a sort of modern's levering And today's not a matter again of digital or artificial intelligence. It's not this the hot topic of the church, but once again is power coming back among us as a species in a domesticated way, like is it in democracy or is coming wild And this is a little bit the way in which Pope Leo I is looking at this new wave of technology in society So why pick it now? you and I have talked about the internet before and the internet's been a rising power? Why does it become critical when it comes to AI With the invention of Chat GPT that is probably for everyone, the equivalent of AI is not true, but is for the pop culture is this the same things My smartphone is thousand tim five hundred thousand five hundred times most powerful than the computer that brings a to the moon. but he is not able to compute something like that And so we need a new centralized form of computation that this time has the shape of data center and cloud What What is the problem? that this new centralization of data center is in some way collecting all the part of our life that we digitizeed in the last thirty years. And actually, a data center is someone else computing that can simpple compute and control what's going on in our life. And we see a lot of countries that are doing this really, really effective right thing to China or rather non democratic country around the world And so, who is controlling the hardware now is controlling also a huge part of our life That sound to me really political. Right. And so therefore the church needs to weigh in here. Now you have a background in engineering. You did make a note that AI has been here before. It's just taken off in this kind of Cambrian explosion is the word I tend to use. I mean, obviously Everyone remembers Galileo, but the church has been very deeply involved in science in not necessarily a negative way for many, many, many different times. Explain the juxtaposition between faith and science. Well, you know, from a core point of view, we are talking of an institution that is two thousand years old. So it makes sense that the perspective was not always the same When the first Christian people ares, they have to confront with a really well shaped formal power that was the Roman Empire and the other count. It's interesting that Christian And in a different way from other religions don try to found their own regulation on God But they found no reason White Because if we believe as a Christian that there is a God that make us, everything that He made in us is not against his will And so everything that is reasonable is according in some way with God will. And that produced during this twentieth century of history a lot of different reflection. Don't forget, for example, that one of my friar thirteenth century, the name was Raymondolul, produced a book the name was the Arts Mia in which you start to think, well, can we say all the trh on God that simple permutation word and you have this double wheel thingss with a lot of word that are Taning on. of century later, Leibnitz look at that and said, Wow, this is fantastic. Let's move to logic. And when you are typing something on a computer today, you are using logic that is driven by Leibnitz that is founded on a Franciscan reflection. Or you can have things like the genetic studies, Mandel, who was a monk. So this idea that if the nature is a gift of God, you can investigate it, you can acquire it without fear, is something that belonged at least to some tradition inside the church. And when you think about the history of the church, people don't realize there's a lot of scientists who are various Jesuits or Franciscans throughout history. I was taught lot. I went to Georgetown. I wasaught by Jesuits. M too. Many of wh were Yeah, many of whom were scientists One of the things that's important is that the church can weigh in on these things. and there's been pushback from politicians. stay in your lane church, essentially. St stand your lan pope, I think is the message they're trying to deliver was something that probably find the most powerful way with secularism, you know? In which they someone start to say, Well, you belong to a specific place that is the sacristy of the church So stay there, donon't go around. Like, you know, like a wild beast in the zoo if I can use these images But now let me push a little bit back on what does it mean to be a member of the church. If you do the priest So only the priest you should preach the gospel during the mass And so if the gospel say You have to look at everyone in this place brother and a sister Isn't it a political message Isn't it something that go beyond a series of displacement of power that usually has the tendency to frame, divide, and in some way shape the order in society So of course And that is not always clear in the history. When some Pol wrote to this slave You know behave like a brother of your owners and to the owners behave like a brothotherers to the slave, at that time twentyentet century ago was not thinkable that slavery was something that isn'tjust. Today, if you would like to be Catholic and you think that slavery is acceptable, you are not Catholic It's an ongoing process. but It's political too. Right, R. So let's talk about the encyclical specifically. Scott and I discussed it on Pivot and we were very impressed by it. In it, the Pope calls for government regulation, protecting children. He warns against AI warfare conversations as he was writing this and the process. I'd love to understand where your role was in shaping it and where his mind was, because putting these things out is a very big signal by the Pope that this is an important topic So talk about the creation of it Well, you know, we can imagine church a lot of way. One could be pyramids with a big boss on the top that simple has a lot of worker done and he say something and everything happened. That's not the church that I know, especially because I belong to Francisan. and we are used to say as a joke, we more than an order, we are a disorder. That means that you know, we have a lot of different processes. Aittle Catholic humor for you. Yeah. Yeah it's Catholic. It's for everyone. There is space also for someone like me. Well so what does it mean? That mean that we can imagine church like a cake with yeast The yes is something that is used to produce an augmentation of the shared thinking. So it's not important to be in the Catholic Church that the Pope has a clear view and understanding of an issues. But it's much, much more important that this belong to every faithful. And this is a process that needs time, need reflection. So when something surfacace onn the top level of the church, so as a pope document, that means that there was a huge disigestion of a lot of different things. Let's be back to Leo thirteen Leo XI was a noonsho that meant a diplomat of the church to the northern Europe And if so what the steam power and machine are doing to the work and to the transformation Heere reflect on that with a lot of people inside the church in Europe When he was elected pope, he was able to connect the dot and produce this rareum novarum that say to the church, lookook We are not in the sacracy. We are with the step in the world and with the brain in the heaven, but we have to walk on this world with other people. And that was really interesting because the same thing is probably is happening here with the Pope Leop fourI. So there are a lot of people that are reflecting on that, lay people, professor in the university, strange Franciscan like myself, doing strange things like this discussion with you. and this is producing a sort of a global awareness. It's start with Pope Francis really clear. Y twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen, twenty twenty In twenty twenty, it's not just a matter of what's happening inside the church But it's also something that happened in everyone's life with COVID pandemic COVID push every generation on digital means. Right. And so digital became top one of the topics So you can go back and see that the topic of AI is surfacing a lot of time in discussion on autonomous weapons, in discussion of child protection, in discussion of ethical approach to the algorithm thenen it became a little bit more consistent In a note from the conongregation of the Doctrine of the Faith and Education Dasterory, because education is tated by AI and the name was Antiqua I Nova old and new things and then Pope Francis passed away and Pop Leo is the first document that the simple proposed out. This document was signed and published. Meanwhile of office in the HolyC that we are used to call the castory. the castory of faate the custory of integral human Development and the custory of Education was involved in producing the blueprint of the document and the pope touched it with his personal style. So if you find a Sant Augusting quotation or something like that, you can see how he's finishing this collective work Because the pop take the duty offer to the church A reflection that he say for me is what I'm understanding as a correct reflection. but it's not his own reflection. It's a reflection of the whole church. And this is Stephen. The whole church had been discussing it starting with Francis. and then it rises up to him as it's been worked done. and he presumably was involved in the part where Francis was focused on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. alsoso because he was in charge of the new bishop. And he invited me as a cardinal to talk to the new bishop about the challenge of the new media, the digital media NAI. And he has also a scientific background. so he's not far from the topic Now you take the duty of the office to tell to the church, look, it's not a secondary element in everyday life. It's something that shape our personal opinion, the way in which we interact with either, with other people. We are seeing something like companion chat can shape forever what we understand of intimacy So let's have a reflection on it. This is not the end of the reflection. beginning the beginning of it. But he could have picked anything at all to start with. But this to him was central, was what was happening. with our relationship with AI and the tech executives that he does call out in some ways, negatively and sometimes positively, because when he presented the letter, anthropic cofounder Chris Ola was seated right there with him on the DS. Anthropics is currently suing the Trump administration after refused to let the Pentagon use Claude for autonomous weapons and mass surveillance talk about was that a pointed rebuke to the Trump administration's handling of AI or in general, the kind of reflection He was trying to establish was a more safety focused, human focused Well, we have to recognize that in this moment, the leading innovation on AI happening. is the United States and China But we do not forget that the majority of faithful probably belong to Africa and Latin America. And so when you see a document like Manigo Manidas, you have to see a more broader approach. It iss not focus on siliconon is focus on humanity. And if I have to express the percentage of preoccupation of the pope probably will be on the effect of the most fragile in the world that will be the global South And the idea that the big tech was present when the press release of the document was there, it's not to be understood as a picking one because he is faithful to the document because the pop see really clearly. It's not enough. an ethical approach that is decided by someone in the bottom room without big sharing with other people And this means that, you know Maybe anthropic is the most active on AI. but it's not the way that the churching is looking to. Every human beings in the same fact that these a human beings has the right to participate to the debate. So we are simple finding a dialogue alsoso with people that are building such kind of things We do not pretend that they are in the same page where we are I think that this is a huge expression that Pope Francis liave to the Church this ability to be open to the difference without fear and without the urgency to say, we have to think everyone the same things now. Right, right, right. So it goes up through committees and then he adds to it, right? Is that correct? And he just keeps getting worked on. And this is something you had been interested in and many others Did he write it himself or he works with a group as with any president or political figure, they work with a lot of people in formulating it, correct? Well, we can understand probably the best metaphorical image to understand that is like when a plant grows You take water that comes from outside, but is filtered from the roots So there is not a scientific committee that advise him directly But scientific and technological people was involved in a lot of satellite reflection that happened in the Hollyy Last September there was one reallyally big in which people like Yoshua Benjo, Hinton and other scientists, Max Steagmark was talking about the danger of superintelligence. Or we have the ro call for EI ics much more directly address to people like the tech guys, the people that make business on this or to the international organization. So all these different sources become something that is a nutrient for the developing of the process But you cannot have this paragraph is connected to this this connected to Right. Right is that digested things We'll be back in a minute for this show comes from Teleport. 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Learn more at payPal d. com slash payonthly Coplelio sees work as a quote fundamental dimension of the human experience and AI is threatening that. why it was called Magnificent humumanity, essentially. Last week, the tech companies are trying Anthropic Open Aes Foundation and several other companies. It's a five hundred million dollars effort, which seems small to help states and employers prepare workers for the effects of AI on jobs in the economy. Talk about what you're all hoping, you know, I consider reputation laundering Maybe it's both that they really mean it or something. But let's talk a little bit about what the hope to have happen here. Just that the dialogue begins or what impact was the church hoping to have here as a whole Well, you know, clear political statement that Pope Leo made on day one when he' explained to the world why he picked that name was that what the church has to offer to the world is the wisdom of the social doctrine of the church. Now for people that are not like myself, a theologian that work with this word every day, what does it mean? Well, first of all, we are not in a Galileo moment when the telescopy was asked to be blessed or to be dumned. Social doctrine of the church simple take the things as it is. The machine easier The genius is out of the battle, they will remain with us And now the problem is how much is too much on how This is the question, and this is a different perspective. But the social doctrine of the church in this shape is a reflection that is hundred and fifty years old In one hundred and fifty here, we are really clear stating on multiple occasions that first, we are not the owner of solution. We are part of the debate. We are part of the dialogue and probably the church is also able to bring voices that otherise will be excluded Second thing has to be plural There is a really interesting debate happening during the sixty and the sevententy about unions Christian look just for Christian unions? Well, the answer was really clear no, becausecause unions is something that is made to make social justice and negotiation of the paycheck is not important that you belong to the church. It's much more important that you are looking for justice And so also the solution that probably the church is expecting is not a confessional one but it's a plural one, something that can happen in a multilateral debate And this is also political interesting now, you know, in a moment in which multilateralism is seen like, you know smoke in the eye Well it's stressing things that no one should be excluded. more than one There is another element When you talk about regulation It's really cultural understood. In China means The leading party give the rules that everyone will follow. In Europe is much more understandood as a hard low In the United States we have a totally different understanding In the social doctrine of the Church, regulation is also the name that you give to standard When we produce a car We decide that we can drive it on the right side of the curb or on the left side of the curb, and having such kind of stard is something that is avoiding accident that help to save life So the first step is a standardization of AI, in which it's really clear and transparent the definition of some the criter that is bringing this technology to us Everyone knows that the quality of data, for example is something that produed the quality of answort And if there is a demography that is underrepresented, probablyrobably the judgment of AI will be not so just on such kind of things And this is a standard. Should we declare that the number of people of the demographic or the quality of data that are behind such kind of system, or should they can remain secret like the recipe of cocool our p. Right. Right. And so you're trying to broaden the debate. Now Popliio met with representatives from tech companies including Meta, Google, and Amazon. But do you know about the concerns he shared with them? or what was the reason? Well, let me say that this is happening in a sort of event that we are calling audience Audience is a wild animal in the sense that can happen in a one to one private room. in which you are really free to discuss about everything and nothing happened O you could be a public audience And can you imagine when you are the CIO of a company that is at a value of one trillion if you say something that can produce the lowering of value. So in that case they are really, you know, A guard railed and it's not easy that I personal talking up or it can happen in a plural way that is much more official, diplomatic with a lot of you know dancing style And so the speech that you are talking about happened in a really different condition So we can imagine that in one to one private audience, I was in a private audience between Microsoft Gu and Pop Francis, the debate was really freeak. because you can say what they want a nothing surface In a public moment with pictures shaking of hands, every declaration could be a nuclear weapon. And so it's much less. much less. But But Publy has been trying to reach out to talk to different tech people to also get their insight, presumably Yes, it's a two way discussion. But at the same time, there's been some that have been very critical billionaire tech investor Peter Thial, He was Also in Rome ahead of the Encyclicals release, where he gave a series of talks, including one where reportedly said the Antichrist would be, quote, a luddite who wants to stop all science. What is he doing from your perspective? He's called people like me, Antichrist, things like that, like that probablyb too Yeah a communis. Yes. what What do you make of what he's up to Well, you know, I think that is like everyone has his own ideas and blueprint, an ideological blueprint My sensibility tell me that he's not believing in democracy, he' not believing in society, and' believing that it's time for a society made by individuals But this is good is something of the society is remained. So you are looking to trench your own space and one count trespassing If all the global society collapse Well, you will have not security Try to think that Every time in the morning, I wake up and I would like to wash my teeth. donon't go and make any analysis on the water that is come out from the pipe because I'm believing that the water company, other human beings, other member of my species are make what is enough to bring me the best water that they can. Welcome to the Social contract So in a really wild situation in which there is not more any social contract And you are an individual in a series with a series of individuals This is simple something that cannot work And this is where the ideology has to face with reality. And so in my perspective, the problem with Peter Thial is this is pushing on an idea that is good if you have to capture some values from a still remaining society produce the collapsing of society, it will be the law of the jungle which I think he prefers. I think monarchy is what he's going for. Vice President JD Vance is the highest ranking Catholic in the U. S. government, but I'm sure you remember when he told the Pope to quote, be careful when talking about theology. He's been a little more muted on the enncyclical. and at the same time he's sort of asked you all not to involve yourself in this thing. Were you surprised by that? and what would you like to see from him as a fellow Catholic? Well, you know, I don't want to be involved with in the United States politics. I'm a foreign citizen. I'm a poor Franciscan. let me talk about theology that is easier And probably what I see as an Italian with the Italian politics, that what you express in public sometimes as an anse that is a politic anse and is not really connected to the word that you are expressing. So my feeling as someone that belonged to a country with a really complex politics and that probably we have to divide the content of the worldd by the political ends of the man that was pushing this And so he is free as a politiciian and probably as a brilliant one is he was elected as a vice president to use the political term that he want to make his own politics. Well, if we have to meet in a church talking about the gospel, what the gospel could be a different topic, you know you feel that as opposed to what these guys are saying, that the church has every right to be weighing in on this and actually making the debate wider What might my My really deep faith as a Catholic is that the church cannot stop to talk about the gospel. And if the gospel bring us onn some friction is not the first time in the history. We have with a lot of different situations in the past. 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This is about vacation inflation and how Piceline negotiates amazing deals on hotels, flights, and rental cars. Yeah, but I didn't mention that you can save up to sixty percent off hotels in the prriceline app. Tim No one deals more deals than Please stop Now you've said this is just the beginning of the discussion about tech. and I'm going to step back and talk about the idea of the church's moral authority. So every episode, we get a question from an outside expert. Here's yours, I think you'll like who it is My name is Yosha Benjiu And the big question I would ask Father Palo Beranti is the following international collaboration on AI safety is currently being outpaced by a competitive race to develop increasingly powerful models. How does the Vatican intend to continue leveraging its unique position Do unite countries around shared Han centered safeguards for AI Which are the main stakeholders that you believe also need to be involved What, you know Yoshua is always brilliant and he put the nail in the cube The problem is is it a competition and always competition, something that is in some way good for everyone Well, you know, competition bring a mathematical model that say winner take goals If you win, I lose. When we face the most important thing in the world, like for example, achieving a cure for the cancer You and me sit at the same table and you have an idea and I have an idea Both of us have two ideas So the difference is a zero suon game and a non zero su games. So if we are looking at the best outcome for humanity We have to play a non zero sum games that does not mean to not be naive Because there are sections like for example, security, the protection of the most fragile, in which there are to put some guardrail in action. If the global landscape, we become at zero sun games, we are not producing any kind of wealth, we are not producing any kind of good results for humanity and probably also for the tech company Because you know, we can imagine a gold rush model a gold rush model well you know, I don't know if all the money that are putting in inside this model will bring back some kind of return of investment And so here it's a matter of a win win situation, which is not just a matter of being faithful to the gospel, but also a matter of being really rational on what does it mean to look to a real return to everyone and return to someone to everybody. So what can the Vatican do to continue to leverage this? What is next from your perspective to keep these human centered safeguards that was talked about in the encyclical in place and who are the main stakeholders here? Who do you have to continue to be in dialogue with? Well, it's easy this kind of question because it belonged to the social doctrine of the church. So I simply have to repeat like in a catechism some kind of point Well, first of all, we saw really clearly we have not the way We could be the square You know, it's not easy to have a dialogue if I know that you have billions and I have billions of interest on both sides But because church is not investing, Church has not money that are going on, it could be a square in which different player come to discuss Well, the social doctrine of the Church states really clearly and we are talking of the late eighteenth century where we are not so open like we are now today, that is not for the elect but is for every woman and man of goodwill So everyone that is looking for the best good best interest of humanity. is welcome here So the only thing is, are you open to change your mind if you see something that sound really Convincing topical that we are discussing. This is the entrance gate. And I think that could be workable as a long time institution that is not the first time that is crossing a changing of time So we are not the United Nations. We are not a sovereign state that globally has nuclear power or things like that But we know something about what does it mean to be human and that there is a lot of voices that are asking to not be simple suppress for the convenience of someone. Right. So you would be a square. an actual square sare. I know that tech companies think they're a public square, but they're not. It's a private square owned by them, controlled by This is the mistake that we make in the first decade of the center. I've said that, you know, this has been my thing. I said Mark I give this part of your speech to my student and also they know very well riv It's a private city where in which she doesn't help you You don't get water, you don't get power, and you pay a rent. It's just it's not a square. Yeah. And the funny thing here is that we use a word that has a really high value that is democratization Because when you know, the fighting for civil rights produced that a black woman sit on a chair that was reserved to white people We was democratizing a right that we wrote in a paper but was not active in society If now we say that democratizing something is the ability that you have to have a login and password to a social network Well, I feel that we are betraying what does it mean to democratize things. That's correct. Yeah. They love to use a lot of words that aren't true. Anyway, so you write a lot about belief. On one hand, all of Catholicism is based on believing and an all seeing all powerful God. On the other hand, we have AI, a technology that, as you said, a quote, voice that has no face, no history, and you've asked, how do you resist the seduction of a system that sounds like it knows everything? end quote about that idea and what can the church teach us about what deserves to be believed? I always say to people, there's nobody there. There's nothing there. You know's forformative reflection of ourselves in a way that isn't controlled by us. So talk about what you meant by that. How do you resist the seduction of such a system with church teachings You know I'm also a philosopher, so let me twist the two concepts together I grew up and during my elementary school, my teacher to make me be practical with a pencil, allowed me to draw mushroom red mushroom with white dots than some other teacher Persuade me to not eat because they are toxic So here is how we Humor by a set of instinct by by the transmission of the lired experience of the former generation to us. This transmission needs I'm sorry We believe to such kind of things You have to believe that the mushroom is toxic without tasting it. Otherwise you have no chance to get by. And sometimes we believe, sometimes we have not to believe. othertherwise there is no such things as a progress. And so Human nature that required to believe to someone else's experience is also required to make problem on someone else's experience. Welcome to the human journey that bring us to the moon, but bring also us to the ability to kill someone because it's different by us And this is the if I can express in that way, the tragedy in the sense of the Playing that we are doing as a humanity Now, AI is a new act in such tragedy in which we shape the way that we give for granted require the quality of someone elses experience. The way that we get was a really architectural way. When we enter in the library of Chargetown, you know it's huge,'s fantastic and you have the scaffold with medicine and you have the scaffold with social science. If during CIin pandemic I tell to you, you know, if you make a map wash with Vinagtte, you don't get the virus Do you don't pick this piece of information and bring to the medicine scaffold But you bring to probably fancy stories collected in a night bar from a drunk at Francisco. What This way work and allow us to grow in science, allow us to criticize some kind of bias that was injected in society Now AI is changing. There is not anymore any scaffolding, but the machine is throwing out things And we don't have a brain helmet, a pair of lenses, an instruction that allow us to judge what is deservable to be truth and what is not And this is producing a lot of tension with go between the innovation of science likeike for example, what alpha Fold can produce in drug discovery and the spreading of things like, you know conspiracy theories and other fancy stories. And so that is the problem. These are synthetic beings who are just giving us information, not facts, information. So one of the things that's important is to understand that it's being controlled by, as you noted, a very small group of people in this private square. And Popliio warned about the risks of consolidating power in the hands of a few Um a little bit about that because he is a pope too, and that's the power is consolidated in the hands of the pope. How could he show being more transparent to make this point. Now the church is not, as you said, an investor, Church is not making money from it It's just trying to collect souls, presumably over time. How could he be even more transparent about making a public square more public here? You know me and you know that I don't resist when I can make a joke as a Roman and an Italian. So let's start from the starting point, the power in the hands of the pope You know, the pupy is someone that also confess. And you know very well that between saying something and that the people do what you say, there is a huge, huge difference. So you can be a voice and the voice can achieve the bottom of your heart but is a voice The second thing is really trusty How can we be sure Aarticipation is really effective Well, first of all, because the church is not the authority that has to put the seal on it So could be the square, but it's not the means. You cannot enforce these things in the force of the church. And so you need something else. and that means that the dialogue remains as a dialogue. You need something that is an institution. An institution, according to the rule although, according to joint rules They are founded on the rule of law and on this idea that the participation and the transparency and the publicity of the ruling mechanism belong to everyone So the church can offer a space, but the enforcement has to be made through the rule of law. That means there has to be also diverse And it's parting of the rule of law that there are countries that can feel much more at easy with one way and country that will feel much more at easy in another way. But they democratically and according to the rule of law, produce a discussion on this topic And now here is clear window where we see that the way in which we do think it's much more important than the result . So one of the things that I've noticed, the moral authority of the church would had come into question as a result of child sex abuse scandals, etcetera, had caused a lot of people to lose faith. It seems like this is gaining moral authority for the church again, like focused in on what affects average citizens and humanity. because most people in the United States right now tend to agree with what the church is saying here, even if they're not Catholics, you know, in terms of AI I know just a personal thing, my son I'm Catholic, but I never took my children to church. My second son is going to mass every week now. And I never brought him, which is kind of interesting. But one of the things that attracts him, he ass a technologist is this moral authority of the church on not just AI, but in terms of what it means in a bigger sense Does this give the church an ability to recover that authority, moral authority? becauseuse it seems to with him, and that's just one case There is a danger in such question because it's like if the church would like to have it like a form of power on consions. Right. I think it's a secondary effect of pursuing what does it mean to be faithful to the gospel And the moment in the history in which we stress such kind of a concept is also the moment in which we lose it And so we My feeling as a Franciscan As someone that belonged to a saying that simple say, everyone and don't grasp power on everyone is it If we have them really happy because it means that the gospel is resoning in society, the seeking for tr And the moral reflection that we are doing are shared with people, but this is not the end of the journey. We are not doing that to achieve this We have to serve the human dignity, Maniga humanitas is saying. And if this is resonating with people, well, I'm much more scared that probably the damage that are produced by this transfer of power to few privates and is already produced a deep wound inside society. Then, if you ask me as theologians, is it this thinkable twenty years ago? I don't think But this is interesting because you know, history can surprise us. Well, one of the things when I think about the idea of what you know that the church does have a moral authority and they do seem to have their finger on the pulse of what average people think, right about this thing. And one of the arguments I keep having with tech people is that why are they so reasonable and you are not? And this is a ur know, it's a hierarchical church and so it's a really interesting juxtaposition to have a church talk about democracy in the correct way And the wealthiest people on the planet insisting on their way or no way at all. And so when you think about where it's going. What is your best case scenario here for the impact of this encyclical? And what is your biggest worry? best scenario is that We open an up way. And so because technology is running, probably things were running much and much and And In this scenario, the square is open. And we continue the dialogue and the dialogue will also produce a changing in some view of the church Because of course having, for example, what does it mean to have the responsibility as a state on a lot of people is not so well experienced in the church. and this is something that where we can have some kind of enrichment in the dialogue What will happen I don't know. I see that the most endangered animal here is not anymore the panda. could be the democracy as we know I think that is You know? It's an ideology that is really dangerous. Fukuyamat told us that transhumanism could be the most dangerous things. I think at the end of democracy be the most dangerous things. becausecause you know, in a really technological way You can understand democracy as an algorithm produce a result. And I see a lot of these people say, well, it's not enough efficient, simple change algorithm here. But this algorithm cost a lot of blood It was a bloody century, the century that we Simul left. If we forgot it, I'm scary that we are betting on someone else's blood back what is important for us. Yeah, that is absolutely. I said to one of them many years ago when I was thinking about income inequality a lot, like in terms of them getting this was when they were just a little bit rich. Now they're really rich. it's really they were super rich, but not like what's happened now And I said to the person, I've sold this story before that you're either going to have to do something about income inequality and what's going to happen here in terms of people being a permanent underclass. orr you're going to have to armor plate your Tesla That is where we're going with this. If you don't if you're not careful, and you're all making all the decisions, and you don't care and you are less and less caring about all of humanity and more and more caring about yourself and your group of people. And I swear to God, I looked at this guy and I thought he wants to