Future of TMZ and Digital Evolution

You don't know this maybe about me, but I used to do parties for the Washington Post. They used to cover parties. I did know that. That's was my coming up job was like, can I get Ted Kennedy to throw a drink in my face kind of stuff? Or something like that? He spilled a drink at me once. ones . Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Cara Swisher and I'm Carol Swisher. My guest today is TMZ founder and executive director Harvey Levin. A lawyer and TV legal analyst Harvey started a celebrity news site TM,Z in two thousand five, which is where I met him. He's since expanded into a multi platform business that includes television, streaming, podcasts, social media channels, documentaries, and celebrity bus tours. TMZ set itself apart from traditional tabloids by what it didn't cover no red carpets, weddings, and junkets. Instead, it leaned on aggressive investigative reporting and ethically dubious methods to some, including possibly paying s ources, although that's something Harvey argues about to land some of the biggest celebrity scoops of the past two decades. This spring, TMZ expanded its political news coverage and opened up a bureau in Washington, DC, according to a post on TMZ, the reporters planned to quote explore the intersection between pulp culture and politics. I have interviewed Harvey many times way back when I was at the Wall Street Journal and I really noticed what he was doing with that website, which I thought was highly innovative. And later at my code conference, I've always thought he was a really interesting media entrepreneur. I love media entrepreneurs. And I do think he gets a little bit of a hit just because he talks about celebrities. He's broken a lot of stories. He did amazing work in covering Spencer Pratt and was the one to write about some of the hypocritical stuff that Pratt was doing. And they've done a pretty good job in DC, and I actually am enjoying what they're doing and seeing what they're doing , and they've got a lot of energy around them that I appreciate, and they actually do quite a lot of reporting. Our expert question comes from Ashley Parker, a staff writer of the Atlantic who herself is an amazing reporter. So stick around . Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odu . It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier , CRM, accounting, inventory, e commerce, and more. And the best part, Odu replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. 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You can hear it now wherever you get your podcast or watch at YouTube dot com slash your rich BFF . Harvey, welcome to On . I am so pleased to be able to talk to you. We go back to the beginning of TMZ . We do. Let's talk about what you're doing now. TMZ has never drawn a line between politicians and celebrities, as TMZ's head of legal affairs, said , qu,ote We've always viewed politicians to just be another branch of the celebrity tree, end quote. And you had ambitions early on to establish presence in DC, and you finally did in April . What took so long because you had talked about it even back then. Warner Brothers killed it twice. We were owned by Warner Brothers by Telepictures . And in two thousand , I think it was two thousand eight I said I want to do TMZ DC and at the time we were with AOL. It was a partnership between Telepictures and AOL . And I went back and forth to Washington, hired a staff. We were going to have our lunch dinner and open our office the next morning and I got a call just before leaving for dinner saying I got some bad news for you . We're killing it. And they killed it . What I later found out was that AOL in particular, although I think Warner Brothers as well, but AOL in particular, they were worried because of regulations that they were afraid that we might piss off a congressman who they needed , you know, for some regulatory act or whatever . And the more they talked about it , the more scared they got and they killed it. I mean, this is classic corporate culture. And so they killed it twice when we were over there at Warner Brothers . And you know, this came about, Kare really spontaneously that when Congress could not pass the budget to fund Homeland Security , Charles and I interviewed a woman who worked at TSA and she was about to lose her apartment. Her car was going to get repossessed, her mental health had gone down the tubes , and we are standing there talking to her and knowing that they were going to take a two week Easter recess . And I was so outraged. We just said, look , this is unacceptable and if anybody out there gets photographs of any member of Congress, Democrat or Republican, it doesn't matter on vacation , send us the pictures and we are going to put them up and juxtapose that against people like this woman who exactly. Right. And who's your ownership now that you're able to do this then? We're owned by Fox. Fox, right, right? And so and they got it in the Which deal? Which deal was it? How did it get over there? Five years ago, Warner Brothers sold it to Fox . And honestly, they've been great and they haven't imposed any pressure on us . We did this with, you know, the two weeks that Congress was out. So it was an opportunity. It just totally felt like this is the moment. Right. And in late March, during this partial government shutdown, you asked travelers to send in pictures. And there's a gallery on TMZ's website that includes a viral photo of Lindsey Graham at Disney World hoing a little mermaid bubble wand, which I really enjoyed very much. It was the first day of recess , we got this picture and I'm just thinking, oh my god, so we just said, look, this is the moment and we put it together in two weeks. Right. And what do you think hit with it? Because it really had a reaction. And everyone was like, well, besides the wand, which was so fantastic and perfect in so many ways, but what was it? Because is there an audience for random congresspeople at airport? What do you think worked there from your from making content all these years? It was nonpartisan . And you know, things have become so tribal in media where you only go after Republicans if you're a certain channel, you go after Democrats if you're another . And we were nonpartis an, and we just put it out there and we really felt the outrage and we telegraphed it. And people responded. People were angry and they wanted to see something like this . And and again, it just felt like the right time to launch TMZ DC. So you had it in the works again or had it been on a shelf or you just said, We're just going to do this because we're so irritated . I mean, 'cause that's not a business plan. Yeah. There was no business plan. There are two people in my organization that I felt were just perfect for this . And I thought I'm going to do something with them or I'm going to move them to Washington, DC . And we made that decision very quickly. We put them up in an Airbnb for the first month, and they just hit the ground running . And it started with both of them having books of pictures of the various members of Congress . And now they know everybody and it's been two months. This is Charlie Cotton and Jacob Wasserman. And Charlie just told Politico that people should know as much about public officials as they know about the real housewives. Correct. He's right. And what's wrong in the way news organizations cover polit icians. You don't know this maybe about me, but I used to do parties for the Washington Post. They used I did know I did know that. And that's what it reminds me of. It's a little funny, it's very cutting. Sometimes it puts, you know, hypocrisy, sometimes it's just a joke and they stopped really doing that. And that was my coming up job was like, can I get Ted Kennedy throw a drink in my face kind of stuff? Or like get a moment or something like that? He spoiled a drink company once, but you know, it was a lot of this stuff. And I always thought it was very revelatory. What do you think is wrong with the way news organizations cover politicians? Well, I mean, I think part of it is that everybody is in one lane . And you know , it's so policy oriented that you don't kind of open things up understand what's behind it. And sometimes when you understand the people and where they're coming from , it gives you an insight into why they're doing what they're doing. You know, most of the time we're not, having these contentious conversations with people but occasionally we do. And we pissed Ted Cruz off something fierce once where we were asking him about the fun, the slush fund that Donald Trump wanted to create . And he did not want to answer. And Charlie, I think very respectfully , would not let it go . And Cruz got very angry. And what really struck me about that Kare is that a lot of times when a politician gets angry , the reporter either backs off or changes the subject and Charlie didn't back off. He didn't. But he wasn't disrespectful and it was revelatory for me. That is completely Yeah, that there are ways forcing issues that need to be talked about that, you know, I see this sometimes with White House news conferences where they'll ask a question it gets deflected. They may do a follow up and if they deflect again, they just drop it. Right, right because they're not they think, they're getting aren the answer, right? And it's also the stick toitiveness of doing it. But would TMZ's celebrity framing approach to politics is worse without a president Trump in office? I mean, the man is a one man pa band. I think it would have worked with Obama. I think it absolutely would have worked with Obama. And that's when we wanted to launch. So explain that from your perspective ? Because there was a freshness to Obama coming into office and kind of in more of an openness, at least it felt that way. And people were excited. They wanted to talk about it. There were people who were upset about it . And I think that was a real moment. And that's why I wish we could have launched back then. So I think this would have worked with Obama. And I do want to just say one thing that you're referring to this as politicians being a form of celebrities. Right, yeah. I don't view it that way. Okay . I view it as pop culture. We cover pop culture. And pop culture can be a lot of things. You know, it can be sports, it can be entertainment. And pop culture is politics because a lot of the things that affect everybody emanates from Washington DC . And it emanates from the courts. It emanates from Congress, from the president , and it affects all of us. So they are an integral part of pop culture. So to me, it has never been a stretch. Right. So there's a mix of political stories on the site, just looking at interviews from lawmakers in Capitol Hill. There's funny stuff, there's Iran war coverage. What makes something a TMZ politics story? And why did you pick these two? You told me an interesting story when we were having drinks recently. Why didn't we pick Charlie and Jacob? Yeah, and also what makes it a TMZ politics story because it's a range of things on your site . Well, you know, I start with the negative. What I tell what I've told Jacob and Charlie is, do not pretend like you're a white house correspondent or somebody covering the hill. You know, the reason I sent them there is because they are fantastic and they are authentic, and they are different from everybody in Washington, DC. They don't have to act a certain way because this is the way you act when you're a reporter in DC. I just told them, dress the same way , act the same way . In fact, don't act , just be yourselves. Charlie has done this, you know, done interviews with people for a dozen years . So he's really good not at interviews, but having conversations . And I think that's the distinction. Charlie is fabulous at just having a conversation letting things kind of flow. I'm not trying to blow smoke, Cara, but you did that so incredibly well with your series on C NN , that you just followed the conversation. You didn't have an outline. And I saw it when I watched you and I know I was bugging you, texting you, telling you how good you were, but that is a skill that a lot of people don't have. They get pre programmed things. You know, that's true. You do have a strategy more than you think, but I see your point. And then what about Jacob? Why did you assign him there? Because I saw glimmers of that with Jacob. And he didn't have the experience out in the field , but there was something. He loves politics and he's just such a unique character that I thought I'd roll the dice on him and I just cannot believe how good he is. I am so proud of them. And this is ninety plus percent casting. That's what this is. And they are A plus plus, as far as I'm concerned. I'm so proud of them. What is a story? Is it just anything? Because it can range. How do you look at what a TMZ story is over something else? Well, it can be anything. I mean, you know, when they got invited to a Pentagon news conference. And so Jacob, look, I mean, they're at the Pentagon. I mean, what's TMZ doing at the Pentagon? So Jacob asked Hexa goes through his mind and his body when he orders a military strike, when a bomb drops? Is it fear ? Is it power ? And that's a in fact he even said, Well, that's a TMZ question and it is because it's not necessarily asking about strategy of war and all the other things that the others reporters ask, but it just felt like we kind of want to know what makes this guy tick. Does he get a thrill? Does he get a charge out of it? Is he scared about it? You know, frankly you're not trying to do PR for them, right? You're trying to get to something real. Is that what you're saying, essentially? Totally. We didn't get a good answer , but we tried. Well, he's not a very thoughtful person. But let me ask you about the politics of it, because we are in such drastically political times, partisan times. And you've known President Trump for a long time. Obviously, he was on TMZ in the old world. You supported him during his first run in twenty sixteen. And two former staffers told Bloomberg in this piece in twenty eighteen, they were limited in covering Trump related scandals because Trump bashing wouldn't make it on the air. But according to the same Bloomberg piece, things changed Afriota falling out with him in twenty eighteen over his efforts to ban transgender troops from serving in the military. talk about your relationship. Do you think about it like that? I don't think you probably do if knowing you, but talk about that a little bit because people do question Rupert Murdoch or if you're at MS now on the other side . Do you think about that at all or how much influence do you have or do you use that influence? Well, first of all, the scenario there is wrong. What happened was I was not so much supporting Trump as I was taking a position that was contrary to everybody else in the office . And also I did know him, and I thought he wanted to be a one term president . And the person I knew was kind of a lesser fair guy. I mean, he knew I was gay. It was not an issue with him . He know, he felt to me , you know, in the fifteen years I knew him before he ran that he was kind of a live and let live guy . And that's not only my opinion, but I've talked to a lot of people who knew him back then before he decided to run who felt the same way . And so I thought he was on that topic . Yes, go ahead. Yeah, and I mean, I thought for better or worse, he was going to be a one term president. And you know, he did it, he won. He'd do it for one term, and then he'd leave. So literally the first day he says he's going to run for re election when that comes up. And I was alarmed . So I had a show on Fox called objectified , where I interviewed celebrities and world leaders and kind of used objects that they kept over the years to kind of get into their lives. And I wanted to interview Netanyahu at the time. So I was having breakfast in DC with Ron Derm shortly after Trump became president . And Ron Derm was the Israeli ambassador to the United States . And I spent a good portion of that breakfast talking to him saying , I'm alarmed . What ? Be Icause was going to go see Trump in the Oval Office later that morning and I said, What can I ask him to do that would be useful because I was alarmed at what I was hearing . And Derm and I talked about it and what I ended up talking to Trump about was A , that you can't alienate the Black Caucus the way you are, and that you should meet with John Lewis and other members that coalition . Why would you want to create that kind of adversary relationship? They're important. And the second thing I wanted to talk to him about was the nonsense about trans gender bathrooms, that it was a non issue, that he was trying to make a federal issue . And I walked out of there dissatisfied and really didn't have much contact, in fact no contact with him after that. And that was February . I didn't have any contact with him because I was getting increasingly upset. I believe it was September of that year, twenty venteen , when Donald Trump said, fire those sons of bitches referring to Colin Kaepernick taking the knee . And I thought I'm done and that was it. That was it. But it doesn't affect what you're covering here. Correct. Do you have a do you want the reporters type of point of view or just get to get to the info? Well, I mean, look, I mean a, point of view Should they have a point of view on the government going away without passing a bill so that people get fed? Yes, yes. I don't think it can be all or nothing , but I don't want them to be partisan. And I want them to understand what makes these people tick. So speaking of pop culture, that UFC fight at the White House was something, of course , capped off by this insult to Michelle Obama, which you all have covered , talk a little bit about that because now pop culture is front and center. I doubt another administration's gonna do it like this. Ultimately, people have come to you. Politics has come to you versus vice versa. Yeah, in that way. First of all, that comment about Michelle Obama was disgusting. I will say this, and I did this today on our social media , and I'm just getting trashed like crazy, which is unsurprising. Trash you if I have to and if you want to have actually but believe me, I know you and I know you will. I don't have a problem with a UFC event at the White House. And I'll tell you why. Presidents have always held daily events . You know, Obama had Hamilton come to the White House. Reagan had Frank Sinatra sing , and you know, you could go on and on and on. The reality is , you know, UFC may or may not be your taste, but it is wildly popular in America. I would agree . And there's also diversity in UFC. There's diversity with the fighters . It crosses lots of lines. And I think there's an element of elitism when people say, Oh, this is below the dignity of the White House . It's an event and you know, he invited military folks . And you know, it's something very popular and just the way Ronald Reagan liked Frank Sinantra and Obama liked Hamilton why can't Donald Trump like the UFC? Agreed. Listen, you'll be surprised. I like MMA fighting. I do, I do. I thought they did it in a trashy way. That's my issue with it and used a lot of federal resources and sold a lot of advertising. You don't see Obama putting up a bud light ad in the White House. Let me read you. This is from Monica House from the Washington Post who also likes MMA as I do. The problem isn't fighting on the lawn. People who love the UFC have had to sit through decades of presidents inviting poets and cellists and opera singers to the White House and turn about is fair play. The problem with Sunday's broadcast wasn't the fighting. The problem was the totally incoherent emulsion of patriotism and bloodlust , history and by this crap event happening for the people but tucked away behind a paramount plus paywall. I kind of think that says it. It was not done for the people and the people paid for it like essentially. And so that to me was the issue more than anything, but I agree with you. He should have whatever entertainment he wants about. I don't care . And I agree with you on the Paramount Plus business, that this should have been an event open to everybody . And I think putting it behind a paywall, I think that's really wrong. But you know, it's funny. You think about the party the DNC threw for John Kennedy in nineteen sixty two at Madison Square Garden with Marilyn Monroe coming out and singing . And you know, it was a spectacle as well. And there were some people who felt that at that time it was beneath the dignity of the office. So I don't think this is anything new. Yeah, yeah, although it was capped by that comment, which of course then changes the whole tone . We'll be back in a minute Support for this show comes from Quince. Summer makes you rethink the outfits you want to wear, lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just look and feel good at the moment, you put them on. And if you're looking to add more for your wardrobe, why not try quince? They focus on high quality essentials, think breathable linen, soft organic cotton and washable silk, but without the luxury markup. Quint European linen pants and shirts are the perfect warm weather upgrade to add to your rotation starting at just thirty four dollars. 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Let's talk a little bit about Tamsy's beginnings and some of its earliest scoops for people who don't know Tamsy developed a reputation for publishing scoops based on court documents. This was your background, by the way, police records and inside sources. In two thousand six, you broke the news of Mel Gibson went on an antisemitic rant during a DUI arrest. In two thousand nine, Tamsy broke the news of Michael Jackson 's death reportedly based on information from a paramedic. You told me in two thousand nine, this is when I was writing about you, quote, We're a news organization that's aggressive and connected in town, and that's the same skill sketch as covering the Iran Iraq War. Talk about this approach because consequential stories appear on the site alongside photos series dedicated to sexy snapshots and celebrity butts. I have no problem with that. But talk a little bit about this because your background was legal and so it makes sense for you to go in that direction. Yeah, you know, I guess in crude terms, it's kind of high low. There are a lot of media outlets that have a voice that you have a certain voice and you stay in that lane . And I always thought there's something wrong with that. It's too narrow that if you have a voice, it means that there may be a really good story that's out side of your lane there and you don't do it. You gotta keep your voice. We never had a voice . What I wanted us to have was a personality . And a personality is somebody can be really serious at one time, funny at another time, even snarky at another time . But when you have a personality, it opens it up to doing all sorts of things and not being confined to that one lane . So from the beginning , at least my goal was that TMZ should have that personality . And I was worried to be honest with you when we broke the Mel Gibson st ory, you know, people started writing stories about us saying, Oh, we're a serious outlet that is competing with so and so and so and so. And I thought, My God, we just don't want to lose our personality. So I doubled down to make sure that we kept doing those things so we didn't get pingeonhold into that voice . What would be that personality then? I mean, obviously you and I talked about this back then. You were accused of paying sources. You recently denied paying for tips and interviews. So in two thousand nine, you told me that you will quote, pay a tip fee now and then. At one point, you reportedly paid ninety thousand dollars for a video of former NFL player Ray Rice punching his then fiance and casino. Talk a little bit about this because I think people think you're doing that in D. C. right now, like paying off for you know, look, I've seen these stories and there was a story that came out were that they paying one hundred thousand dollars per tip in Washington, DC. It's ridiculous. I'll give you some for a lot less. I have a lot of tips. Hey, Cara, we could get them for free. Yeah. And look, I was a news reporter in Los Angeles for fifteen years before I started any of this and broke lots and lots of stories . And it's not about , oh, what do you do? Do you call random police stations up and say, Hey, if you give me something, I'll give you ten thousand dollars . I mean if we did that, you would hear about that over the last twenty one years and you haven't because we don't . And you know, the way that we get almost all of our stories is relationships that, you know, we established relationships with lawyers in town, with every publicist in town, with celebrities, with police departments , and they will work with you. And I knew this when I was at KCBS in Los Angeles. They will always work with you if you're honest with them. And if you break trust, what would you call paying for a video? How would you look at that? I know people pay for photography. Is it akin to that? How would you describe it? Because as you know, many standards of journalism is you do not pay for tips, although lots of people have. We don't do that. We don't live off of that. What we do pay for is video and photos. And we have done that from day one. And guess what? So does everybody else. And I kind of loved the fact there were a lot of news organizations that came out and said, Oh my God, TMZ is paying for videos. And I loved that because it was an advertisement to other people saying, Hey, contact TMZ because they pay for it too. There are photo agencies that they license things with all the time. And we had a guy here whose father in law sold a picture of a burning apartment building to the LA Times for a hundred bucks in an LA Times hat. And that was twenty five years ago. So everybody pays for photos, everybody pays for video . What you don't pay for are interviews because then you're incentivizing people to make things up, to make it worthwhile. And let me just say that we get tons of tips because you know, I have reporters here and the idea is establish relationships , work with people when we get, you know, when we broke , I don't know, Bobby Christina's death , Whitney Houston's daughter. You know , it's like, what are we going to call people up randomly and say, Hey, we're going to pay you. Somebody's going to say, how dare you? And it's going to come out that we offered it. Right. No, I got that. And you're not hearing it because it doesn't happen. To be fair, I often go to your site because I think it's accurate, actually. And so I don't find a lot of errors on your part. But where are the standards? Do you have to have different standards in Washington? I know you guys got in trouble when Lamb Payne's body, when you had a cropped picture of that, and you got a backlash and you pulled the photos. And you told Hollywood Reporter in two thousand eight, everyone has standards as something that really matters us and deal with every day . We turn down a lot of stories. What is the standards and is it different in Washington or not or just it's the same standards everywhere? It's the same standard . And look, we have researchers , we have producers, we have lawyers . We vet things here. We don't just throw things up on our website or on social media . Things get vetted. And look , we have debates all day long. There is a lot that comes across our desks where we say no way are we going to do that? And this has gone on since day one . So what you see on the site is fraction the various tips and stories that we get , some of which may feel intrusive, may cross the line with privacy, may look like bedroom police or may just have that kind of yuck factor that we talk about all the time. We do it every day. Right. What is there things you won't cover? Do you have a determination with your reporters there or elsewhere? Yeah, I mean , you know, if we get a call from somebody who works, say, at a hospital, we cut it off because we are not going to violate HIPA. So that's just cut off. If somebody from, say, a police department calls up and says, I'm going to give you a tip, but will you pay us two hundred dollars? It's over. We cut it off. We don't do that. You know, if it's bedroom police we don't do it. If it's a telephoto lens of something where you could not otherwise see it and it feels intrusive , that happens a lot and a lot of times we'll get photos from photo agencies as do others. And you look at it and say, How was this picture taken and where was it taken? You know, and there are some things that feel unfair And I can't give you a benchmark on what unfairness means, but we talk about that a lot . We'll be back in a minute Support for this show comes from ZokDock. Finding a doctor you like is a great feeling. 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Don't wait until your pet has a health problem. Believe me, go to fetch dot com slash save and get your free quote. It takes about two minutes. That's fetchpet dot com slash save , fetch, love longer . Let's shift to DC again. Every episode we get a question from an outside expert and I got you a very well known White House reporter. Hi Harvey, Ashley Parker from the Atlantic. I am old enough, unfortunately , to remember when it was a scandal when Obama wore a tan suit But seeing that scandals have been I don't know, our bar for scandal and controversy has changed so much. My question to you is what is your gold stand ard for a TNZ scandal? Write me your ideal fan fiction of what you will find here in our city. Thanks. She's a great reporter. She's great. I can't. I will tell you this that I have told Jacob, in fact I talked to Jacob about it today and Charlie , that get in touch with members of Congress and let's find out what's going on here ? And if there is a really interesting story , I never said scandal because it doesn't have to be scandalous to be a really important story. I mean, let's go back to the first big story. Mel Gibson , I wouldn't call that a scandal. It was just a story . And so we're looking for the same thing. And I've told Jacob and Charlie that one of the big things you gotta do is network and get to know these people and get them to trust you. Basics of reporting. I know. And we're laying the groundwork. Well, I used to tell people they're like, How do you get some of these scoops? I said, I called more people than you. And just, I don't know what to tell you. I know more people. I keep asking questions. It's not that . I'll tell you hard. I'll tell you, Carol, the biggest friend that you have to me in journalism is the telephone . That, you know, you should make a hundred phone calls a day when you are searching for stories and ninety seven percent or ninety seven percent of the time they're going to say I got nothing. But the more you persist , the more you're going to strike gold . And I mean look, you know, we did a story not too long ago about these voicemails, these anti Semitic voicemails that Congressman Jared Moskowitz was getting. That was a good story. I wouldn't call it a scandal , but it's a reality. Yeah. But interestingly, last month, TMZ posted a story with the headline, Ice Drags Man Out of the Hospital in a mob of angry protesters about a Nigerian man who was arrested at a Brooklyn hospital. TMZ quoted an ice spokesperson who said the man had previous arrest for assault and criminal drug possession and tried to hit officer the car, but the White House chided TMZ on its media offenders page saying quote The Click Obsess Cuckled a, T amsy published a misleading caption that demonized our heroic Ice agents while admitting crucial context about an illegal alien scumbag. Wow, talk about this. What do you make the White House response to this which was a basic story in the Trump administration's ongoing attack s. I'm sure you don't mind being called a cuckoldin us. But unsurprising, I guess join the crowd . You know, it kind of makes me feel like we 've accomplished something if they've taken notice and gotten angry because they get angry a lot. Look, you know , if I have a fundamental issue with this administration , that is that there is not reverence for the Constitution . I think that the administration looks at the Constitution as an obstacle and I think that that is at the heart of everything right now, that you know , it used to have, you know, people had reverence for it. And now it's like, how do we , you know, turn it on its head and get around it? Yeah, story about habias corpus. Incredible. Yeah. Incredible. And there are many stories, many stories like it. I mean, birthright citizenship. I mean, you have to do somersaults to, you know, make the argument, all sorts of things, First Amendment . So, you know, I think that is the root issue that at least I'm personally concerned with is that the Constitution , I think , is viewed as an obstacle. So does that hurt with your audience that you're going? These are serious subjects, habeas corpus, Ice, you know, and some of it's fun, but a lot of it is quite serious because they're like, When's Tayl or getting married and where? I'd like to know that . Well, I mean, that's clearly more important than the Constitution . No, no , no, you can have both at once. But do you worry about that at all? Well, you just answered it by saying you can have both at once. And I think that's the point that you can push back, I guess, from your audience maybe what Look, you know, we have a blog role and the idea for me at least with the blog role was, you don't like this, scroll down, you might like that . And we kind of do it with our television show with pacing our TV show . That there may be a subject that somebody doesn't particularly care about, but they know something else is coming down the pike in thirty seconds. And so it's the way we program as well. And the great thing for example, of social media for us, and that's really where I'm pivoting our business that it's not all or nothing, that if you do something and take chances and service a group here and a group there, somebody's not going to go away. They're just not going to look at a story that maybe we did on Iran. So to me that's the beauty of social media. So you don't have to mean to mean things to different people. Now I'm going to ask you about that social media a second, but TMZ is covering Los Angeles mayoral race and former reality star Spencer Patt. You seem to warm up to him as a mayoral candidate, especially after you two talked privately last month. But you're also very critical to his campaign. I thought you did some of the best reporting about his hijinks with his house. He finished there behind Mayor Karen Bass and City Council member Nithia Raman, and he won't be advancing to the runoff. Politico called TMZ's coverage of Pratt relentless and said the raise was a measure of your political power as a California King maker. How do you take to that? So that's an interesting one that there are people who think that we were pushing Spencer Pratt's candidacy and there are people who thought we were trying to sink it. And you know, I talked to Spencer and he was not happy with our coverage that he was not living in that trailer that he seemed to say he was. They were not happy . He was at a lovely hotel the best hotel in L. A. Right. And they weren't happy that we broke the story that he had signed a deal with a reality show production company . But at the same time , you know, I was really really critical of Karen Bass and I think that kind of gets to the problem we have in this country, which is you're either one hundred percent for somebody or you're their enemy. And that's the way it seems like both sides view things right now . And I don't look at it that way . And you know, to me, you could find virtues and you can find problems with one person and it doesn't mean you're against them or for them. It's just being honest about them. And I think what's happened in the media that it's become so tribal that you know, if you don't like Trump , there's nothing he can do that's good. And if you love Trump, there's nothing he can do that's bad. And if you stray from that, you're a traitor. And I reject that. And what we did with Spencer Pratt was we just tried to view him as honestly as we could. Oh, I think you sunk him. I think you're reporting sunk. Do you really? I do. I didn't think you meant it. I think it was all true. But it was like he had this sort of snakes on a plane campaign that was a little more less popular than it seemed. You know what I mean? With voters, I guess. And so I think those people were like, oh, wait, he's living in a trailer. Oh wait, he's doing a reality show. I think those two stories were critical in understanding maybe this guy's in it for himself versus the city of Los Angeles. I mean, I was getting calls from celebrities saying, oh , come on, lay off him and he's the savior for Los Angeles. I know. And you know, there were people who were watching the AI ads, you know, with Spencer Pratt as Batman . And you know, again, it's sort of like you're a savior or you're a fool and an enemy. And things are in the middle most of the time. When I say sunk em, you sunk him with a true is what it was. To me that's, what it was like , this is what he did. Take it for what you will, but that's what he's doing. And I thought that was devastating to him. But he did it. I don't think you did it, you know, necessarily. You have, of course, Rupert coming into California with his New York Post version . Do you see that as your real competitor? Who from your perspective is your competitor with all this? Yeah, I've never viewed other media outlets as competitors, and I'll tell you why . That if the New York Post or People magazine or any of them break a story , it creates interest we can seize that and we can find an angle to it. And nobody looks at if you're into pop culture or celebrity news, nobody looks at just one outlet. They'll look at five or six . And if somebody finds a story that's really good and we can find angles to it, it helps us and it also creates more interest in the universe of celebrity or pop culture. So I don't view any of them as competitors . You know, we need to do our share of breaking stories and following stories , but you know, if somebody else breaks a story, I don't view it as a zero sum game at all following at all. It's good to break story. So how are you going to cover the midterms? Do you have any, like, there's a lot going on? There's a lot happening. And I think it's going to be mostly up to Jacob and Charlie. And you know,, it really depends on, you know, how things shape up. I'm not going to be sending people to Texas and, you know, and other battlegrounds . You know, look, we're not equipped to cover the mid terms the way a CNN or Fox News or any of them. I mean, we just don't have the resources . And that's not our sole mission . So we're going to do what we can do and things that we think are interesting, but it's not going to be at the level of what you're seeing elsewhere. It's just not. Are there politicians you find really interesting from a pop culture point of view? I'd imagine AOC would be one. There's a couple, right? Platiner if you win certainly will be one. Are there any you find more interesting than others? Yeah, I mean, AOC to me is fascinating . Mundami has become really interesting to me. I am so intrigued by the way he's been handling things and the way he got out there with it with the NBA finals. It was masterful. I mean, it was, it was masterful. He's a pop culture figure. He knows pop culture . Totally , totally. Anyone else that you find ? Is there a Republican besides Trump that's interesting? I mean, as I told you, I said JD Mansa, the charm of a cyber truck. So I find Tim Burchett really interesting . And some people think he's too out there , but I think Tim Burchett is really interesting. Look, you know , I'm kind of interested since you covered the party scene. Can I ask you a question? Please. Who's more fun Democrats or Republicans? In the old days, Republicans were more fun . But although some Democrats, now the Republicans are exhausting. They're so sucked up to Trump they and then tell you how much they hate him behind the scenes and then you're like, oh, I can't stand you. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think anyone's fun anymore, Harvey. I don't think anyone gets along behind the scenes and in front of the scenes. Before it was like fight by day, get along by night kind of thing. So I think the comedy , you know, I remember covering something, which you can't believe to this day, but Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg were very good friends. And they were. And the two of them had a relationship that was there's so much massive disagreement. It's hard to remember those days, but there was something really nice covering people. And I don't mean that they're secretly got along, they actually got along. And so it was much more interesting now it's just it's exactly that man insulting Michelle Obama all fucking day long. I would not like to cover that. I had thought about trying to go to that thing and then I thought, I don't have the fucking energy for it. And I'm glad I didn't. It looked like a ridiculous bread and circus spectacle. So it wasn't interesting, it wasn't insightful. Everything implicit is explicit now, and that's the difficulty of covering it. It's all performative , and that's sad. Yeah, I'll tell you, Charlie and Jacob, again, I'm sorry for crowing at them , but they have been able to get humor and and frankly more with more with Republicans than Democrats. No, well, Dave More to make fun of you. And I don't know why, but that's just Democrats are pretty pissed right now. Yeah . I mean, maybe that's and that's probably it. But that's one of the things that they're trying to navigate is just getting them to open up some. And Charlie's got a bag of tricks. Things are dead serious, feel more dead serious now, especially because the assault on the Constitution. You know what I mean? That's fine. Eventually when that's not there, maybe it'll get back, but I don't know. Let's end by looking at TMZ's continuing evolution and its future. Early on in history, it had a reputation as the website celebrities and their publicists feared. How has it changed? Do you think you've softened your approach, less ruthless? How do you look at your relationship to Hollywood right now? Well, I mean, if you look back twenty years , there were things we did back then that I think looking back feel harsh . And we have kind of tempered from the very beginning, for sure. More generally , you know, I'm spending a lot of time pivoting our business that I think television has been great for us and knock on wood, our shows are still doing well, but I don't know how long television is going to last . There's a shelf life there. Badcasts are television. So everything is television. Yeah. And so, you know, we're pivoting our business . We're live streaming our shows . We are really investing in YouTube. We've hired a whole group of Gen Zers and and Jen Alpha's. I have a bunch of twenty one year olds in the office now, and they are doing amazing work under the leadership of a guy whose name I don't want to mention because I don't want somebody to steal him. But we've really done something really important, I think , in that area with social media and gen Z and Jen Alpha. And that's where the business is going. And you know, look, when we started TMZ , you know, it felt like everybody was trying to hang on for dear life to what they had . And it felt like something new to have a website where you were actually covering news at the time. It's not new anymore, Karen. And so where do you go next? And I think you evolve or you die. Yeah . And that's just the way it is. I want to play a clip from an interview we did in two thousand nine when I was at the Wall Street Journal. I was in your new office in West Hollywood and we were talking about the expansion from a website to a TV show. Let's listen. We're going to have all the technical stuff , which I still don't understand. And you just think of it as how can you tell a story that's going to be fun for people or interesting to people? And you just think of it as storytelling and you can at look each medi andum say this medium has the ability or you can have the ability to do it in a certain way that you don't in the other and vice versa . And just look at it as story tone. It's all about. It's not like a big secret. It's just how do you tell good st ories on both? So really, you look good, they're leaning on the couch, lounging upon the couch That'll sound me too . Is it still that same thing? Storytelling ? Yeah, you know, it's funny when we started the TV show , you know, a lot of people were telling me you gotta have an anchor and you got to have reporters . And you do it the conventional way where an anchor throws to a reporter who does a story and then comes back and throws back to the anchor. And it's like, that's the last thing Hollywood needed was a sixth entertainment show like that. What we said was, look, we have a room full of people work on these stories for a living. So why not throw them all in the center of the room and they'll be the voice, they'll be the storytellers . And what was different is they live the stories. They know the stories. They're not reading off a teleprompter. So we could have a PA or an editor or a news producer and they go back and forth and in a very kind of casual way, but it can be really compelling if you do it right and you edit it right where it's a different form of telling a story . And you know, if there's any one thing that worked for us with the TV shows, it's that. Last question, on an episode of Matt Bellany's podcast The Town, he interviewed a former TMZ staffer about relationship with the Hollywood's impact on news. One observation was that mainstream media has become more like TMZ . Do you see that? In that regard, interesting. Do you see people coming around to you ? And is that a good thing necessarily? I don't know that I can answer whether it's a good thing or not, but definitely