The Truth Behind Grant Wahl's Passing

Welcome to Pablo Tore Finds out. I am Pablo Tore, and today we're going to find out What this sound is. If the world soccer fan can't stand e Bladder, then why is he running again So I decided if three FIFA Pidents are then sports journalists, then I can run for FIFA Pidident too. rightight after this ad Yoo. Hey Bring it up. Bring it famous PTFO sweater G, how are you doing? Yeah greatreat. I was gonna to say your schedule is Yeah sure. Yeah, ye, all over the place right now. Yeah Wait, so what's your schedule from here? Uh so we're so at CBS, we're just doing stuff. Right. I went to as a fan, I bought a ticket and got I went to Scotland Hai, which is awesome. Yeah, watching from home, that looked like amazing I was standing online for a beer And there was all these people who just like randomly started hugging for no reason. ' that Haiti hadn't made it since nineteen seventy four and they're all the other things they're in. and Scotland hadn't made it since ' ninety eight and they're just there for a giant party and they're like, oh my God, we're here. We're doing it. Whatne are the things, Chris Wittingham, thank you for being here by the way. Yeah, no problem. One of the things about the World Cup that always hits me Once it gets going is like As much as I think the thing we were just caring about, the NBA finals or any other sporting event is the thing The World Cup is it's one of a kind. Yeah, you feel it in this city as well, even on the subway over the they have like the wrapped ones and you see the jerseys. and it is such an incredible cultural exchange on top of it being the world's biggest sporting event by a mile. I was blown away that the combined TV rating number in English and Spanish was bigger than the first four NBA finals game for the US game on Friday night I was astounded by that because it does it just goes to show. number one people love throwing themselves in the flag, but it is This thing that is now being reintroduced to America for the first time in thirty two years that It just transcends in a way that very few other things do. Actually, I would legitimately say nothing does. It wasn't always that way, but it is now I' do my own historical review of the ninety four World Cup. In the eighties, there is a House debate. on Capitol Hill about whether the U. S. should support bidding for the ninety four World Cup and Jack Kemp. former Republican from New York, NFL quarterback, said, quote Paul is in the NFL. Football is democratic capitalism. Whereas soccer is a European socialist sport And then USA today, that same year, a writer says that the case being made by soccer's fanboys is, quote, what the Russians told us about communism that it is this secret SyOop that is here to plant in the minds of Americans to be anti American. It's hilarious. But it was accused of being this whole like foreign operation The person I think about in terms of the Americans who've been trying to explain like, hey, this is a real story. The math on this is not fake. This is actually the most popular thing on the planet is a guy that both of us used to work with. Yeah. I think about all of the time, but especially during this time of year, during this World Cup Brant Wall And for people who don't, know of Grant who didn't know his work as a journalist. How would you summarize him? I would say he was America's preeminent soccer journalist and that has multiple tentacles because He was this sort of conduit from the world to the United States. There were a lot of people that came to Grant to tell the story of the sport in the country But at the same time, while being a sort of very big force in that way You also, by virtue of being a soccer writer be an evangelist for the sport and presumably continually ask the editors at Sports Illustrated and the American public to please care about this thing that the entire world cares about. We are one of the very few countries for whom football is not the number one sport in the country You're you're talking about obviously, you know, Australia, you're talking about India with cricket, but in terms of big nations of South America, the lion'hare of Europe. most the world insane to have to summarize how much the world cares about soccer. thatmeric especially when he sort of was starting in the mid to late nineties as sort of this person who was saying, okay, I am a college basketball writer from Kansas.. I'm going to eschewe that to become this evangelist for this sport that is massive around the world. day by day, step by step is getting bigger in the United States, but still kind of Ns explanation even to this day. Right. And I should say that when I was a fact checker at Sports Illustrated and Grantwall was a senior writer, the legend of him, first of all, he was the number one college basketball writer in America at Sports Illustrated. and then He was also the LeBron cover guy. Yeah, someomebody who took pride in like knowing what the next big thing was gonna be When you think of that LeBron sports Illustrated cover when he's in high school and it's, you know, it's the thing that stamps, Hey, you should pay attention to this That's Gant as well. Yeah. And so One person I talked to Of course, I had to is Celine Gnder, Dr. Celine Gnder, a noted epidemiologist and also somebody who was in this context, very important to understand because She married Grantwall He had to fight. He really did have to fight to um get soccer, um in the pages of the magazine I'm trying to remember was it the French World Cup in ninety eight I wantna say that it was not on the cover, that it was Mike Dita with a cigar ended up making the cover that week and he was just like, I would say he'd be tearing his hair out over it except he didn't have any hair. but like he was just could not understand how we did not see the importance of that when incredible And people don't remember. So ninety eight the World Cup was in Paris. It was won by friends, enine Zedan, you know, this is the header. The that is it was al a little g when a Not the head butt, not the the header. A different iconic moment involving his skull. his also bald skull. This is what S I put on the cover instead That's amazing. There it is. New Orleans coach, Mike Ditka wants all of us to forsake vice and become real saints. Ho smoke. And then on the top left corner, a very small print, sucker Bue. France stuns Brazil. As Mike Dick is holding a cigar It's July and we put the NFL on the cover in ninety eight. Yeah. off course. It is Still stunning. I don't think people quite understand clawing for relevance that really isn't that long ago. That was twenty eight years ago. I remember when I was working in local radio. Miami is always the biggest market for the World Cup, always because of the multiculturalism. and the text machine that we used to have that would like get texts from the audience was always stop this, stop talking about this Tell me about dolphins miniamp, please. And this was not that long ago And so you can imagine just like the timeline at Sports Illustrated as again, this stand in for mainstream sports media. We go now to ninety nine And Grantwall, you can imagine the triumph here In nineteen ninety nine, the USM's national team of course, wins the World Cup and Grant finally gets his cover of sports Illustrated And this is course unforgettable Can you describe the image that ends up gracing people's mailboxes? Yeah. so of course, the United States are earning the World Cup final of nineteen ninety nine. I believe it was against China To this day is right up there in terms of top attendances ever for a US soccer match over ninety thousand at the Rose Bowl. They go to a penalty shootout And Brandy Chestain has it on her foot to win the World Cup for the United States and she scores it And Rriips offer top to reveal a sports bra. and at the time, it was incredibly risque thing to do It becomes the sort of enduring image of a number of things, United States soccer pereriod, women's soccer period, this sort of proud feminism It becomes an extraordinary image that is seen on TV and sort of has to be captured in some way in terms of a legacy and Grant plays big role in doing that Oh yeah, we talked to Brianna Scurry who was the goalkeeper . And the notion of self assertion As seen in that photograph and as seen in the coverage by Grant, it still sticks out there The only place you found soccer was literally a grantrootad about it He was covering soccer way before it was cool He wasn't like, ooh Women's soccer. Oh, ninety nine. now they're famous. Now let me let me show up and let me let me talk to these girls and he was there from the beginning when nobody really cared When when, you know, soccer was number five out of five out the popular sports in the United States I mean, let's just be very blunt about this. having someone like Grant saying This is important I mean, this meant so much to these players. He means a lot to me and to our team and the rise of women's soccer in this country, he's right there with the rest of us who actually were on the pitch as a representation of the rise afterpit And yet at the same time, what I loved, what I marvel at still in retrospect today is that Grant was also An investigator. Yes. He was somebody who was Because of his love for something trying to take it seriously, which means reporting on it You have to again, tell people that this is great that the world loves this and that you should care about this thing while also spotlighting its flaws. These are sort of generally seen as two things that would be at odds But what Grant did after being fired by spports Illustrated during COVID in twenty twenty, unceremoniously, I might add was start an independent podcast and newsletter whichich I personally found inspiring A least because what it did was blend onsite coverage at the World Cup, for instance, with actual reporting about the host country As with his scrutiny of the human rights scandals, plural in Qatar in twenty twenty two Which happens to bring me now to the origin story of Gran's friendship with our guest today. CBS sports host and soccer commentator. Chris Whittingham I listen to his podcast every week. And so I reached out to him and I was like, Hey, you know, I'm available. It's COVID And I have all the time in the world to edit podcasts. you need help with that. He's like, No, I'm gonna to try it on my own. And like three days later, he's like, I need your help with this And so it began as sort of a non speaking role. It was just sort of editing the thing and then he was like, why don't just come on because we do this before the show. Why don't you just come on and do it on the show Hey there. Welcome to Football with Grant Wall. Thanks so much for joining me. I am in Qatar doing daily coverage of World Cup twenty two. Let's bring in Chris Whittdingham. How are you, my friend I am recharging after the World Cup round of sixteen and I'm trying to get some rest and get fired up for these quarterfinals because There are some Hasty matchups on offer here. I am very excited And I took some time off myself. We had two days here without games after seventeen straight days of games. And my body, I think told me, dude, you are not sleeping enough and it rebelled on me. And so I've had a case of bronchitis this week. I've been to the medical clinic at the media center twice now, including today. And the day after Chris and Grant taped that podcast together that you just heard Rrant went to go cover a World Cup quarterfinal in Qatar Netherlands, Argentina I had sent him several texts sayaying, when are we recording What time Hanging out here in my apartment whenever you're ready, I'm good to go And it sort of went unanswered for ninety minutes to two hours and then I actually got a text off someone who works here at Metadal Aark Media. And they said, hey, have you heard anything about grant And I said, No, no, I haven't heard anything as well, I've I heard some things that aren't great And I was like, what do you mean? you know, describe sort of an idea of a medical event. Rant Wall had collapsed It turned out. in the press box neear the end of that match. and Immediately, as fast as they could got rushed to the hospital. planting all sorts of seeds of doubt and questions and theories Because Grant, as you heard earlier, had just been talking about bronchitis and feeling exhausted And so This was twenty twenty two. What if he had COVID What if that was it? his wife, Celine Gounder, It is an epidemiologist, an expert in the pandemic What if all of this had to do with the COVID vaccine Multiple people I talked to were wondering at the time if Brant had been poisoned Either. by some autocrat, some official who wanted to silence his reporting They were wondering allowed if Foul play had been involved. We do begin with that breaking news tonight, a mysterious death overseas, American soccer journalist Grant Wall has died while covering the World Cup in Qatar FIF released a statement with reaction from President Gianni Ifantino. He said It is with disbelief and immense sadness that I've been made aware of the passing of renowned sports journalist Grant Wall whilst reporting on a quarter final match. Only some days ago, Grant was recognized by FIFA and AIPS for his contribution to reporting on eight consecutive World Cups. The White House press secretary calling Wahall an inspiration to many. Tennis legend Billy Jean King, US men's soccer player Tyler Adams, and actor Brendon Hunt, also among the latest paying respects very fond of Grant You know, me being a teenager and him covering that it was, um That was a pretty cool thing I've always kind of watched from a distance, you know, even when I moved up in the ranks, you know, he kind of went to a different sport and things of that nature over the years. Anytime his name will come up, I'll always think back to me as a teenager and having grant in our building down at S. V. It tragic losses though, Iome. unfortunate You know, to lose someone as great as he was I was in shock I remember just being paralyzed for probably about twelve hours And then you sort of spring into trying to help Sele, I talked to Selena with any information I might have hisis brother Eric as well Yeah, I just remember being shell shocked and also And this was the thing that I've sort of held ont to for a long time is just wanting to talk about that game with him. Yeah, the instinct of if there is one person that I wish we could hear from, Yes, during this World Cup in the United States It's it's Gant There's so many things that have happened since where me and several of his other mutual friends have gone I wanted to hear what Grant had to say about this. And obviously this World Cup is the biggest one by a mile The end of June and July can be a really rough period for sports fans with football still a few months away and basketball and hockey This year, we're pretty lucky Because not only is there a worldorld Cup, there's a worldorld Cup in our backyard And so make sure to check out the Athletic Podcast Network to stay up to date on all things related to the World Cup You can wake up with the Totally foootball show from LA, then dive deep into the biggest talking point of the day with the athletic FC podcast. And you can watch the TFO podcast fool around on their daily live streams in the afternoon All shows are free to watch or listen on your favorite podcast platform When I say that Grant Wall was the guy who I consider the number one authority on soccer I don't just mean that journalistically. I also mean that he tried to become the number one authority in the world of soccer via election Crazy But A real thing that happened. He wanted to be the authority of soccer as president of FIFA which is like And amaz we love, we love doing stupid things seriously Un Pabatori finds out. Yeah People were that disillusioned with FIFA at the time. There was the awarding of the World Cup hosting rights, which really caught the United States off guard when it went to Qatar and to Russia as well in twenty eighteen. And there were all these things that people thought, man Why isn't there anyone running this organization who seems to like it, who actually wantsed to get better, to improve that thinks of fans rather than the sort of internal politics of this place in Switzerland that had very little connection to the world, it seems Right. And so Seth Bladder, who is the incumbent FIFA president and FIFA president, again, the all powerful title, the emperor of world football Sed Bladder kept on running unopposed. And amid all of these issues with corruption and the cash for votes scandal in twenty ten february seventeenth, twenty eleven, something that I look back on and I Can't help but laugh This Latter has been president of FIFA for thirteen years Even Bladder admits that FIPA's reputation has been tarnished under his watch on june first He's running for reelection But now there's a cure for FIFA bladder infection. Is he running again So I decided if three FIFA Pidents have been sports journalists, then I can run for FIFA Pident too. I'm convinced that if the world soccer fans got to vote, I would be Scept Bladder and a landslide need one country's Federation to heave the popular will and nominate me by the april first deadline. Wall for FIFA Presidident My name is Brant Wall, and you better believe I app proved this mess If you want to know why people were theorizing that Grant Wall's death may have come at the hands of enemies of his approach to journalism This part of Grant's career is one reason why Because Grant We're not only not shut up His actual platform was more than just better referees and instant replay It was about transparency And how if Grant Wall were to actually be elected by FIBA voters, its member countries He would expose corruption I'll clean up VISA the only way possible by releasing all of its internal documents to the public We're going to go wiki leeaks on people The one thing that I think a lot of people don't understand about FIFA is that it is a one vote per country system If you've won five World Cups like Brazil or you basically don't have a football team like American Samoa You have the same voting rights. And so you're really just trying to go to one of these small territory., can you buck against the trend? And nominate me for president, but it actually sort of works out as the opposite. where those small voting associations They get the same payout from FIFA that everyone else does. So they are massively less incentivized as having no real power in the world of football to just go with the flow and let's keep this cash trarain moving. Yes. onene of the things you learn through Grant's accounting of his campaign is The voters that might seem from afar are ostensibly persuadable. are among the least. becausecause yes, whether you're the US or Dominica Or somewhere in between, as he puts it, Swed, Chile, Ireland, Israel. None of them had the guts to do it which C stuck out point to his wife He reached out to there's over two hundred a different national Federation. So at the time the rules were you just needed one to nominate you and he actually got pretty close with some, but in the end could not get a single one. And you know, that was essentially the expose that you could not get even one, that this was how closed the process was So the whole thing about this stunt being like wacky and like, here's an American trying to, you know, again, of course that American wants to run the whole thing. of course. The actual upshot of this is astounding It one of my favorite things in sports that you get to see only you know, on rare special occasions is someone whose impact on the game ends up forcing a rule change. They were scared of it I mean, that very clearly indicates we can't let this sort of idea because it it garnered worldwide press. There are people around the world who wanted to talk to Grant likeike, yeah, this is great. Can you do this please? And they would have been scared that maybe one association does nominate and maybe, you know, he's able to convince somehow appeal to the hearts and minds of the greater voting public within FIFA and go on to win the thing and end this machine that they have rolling at the time And instead, what FIFA decides to do is something that he also explained on the long for podcast in twenty sixteen from here My FFA presidential campaign didn't exactly work out. Yeah. We didn't talk about that in twenty eleven. President of FIFA. That again was sort of pressure That was before all of these takedown scandals. Yeah. And it was fun. I causeed them to change their rules where to run for FIFA president now you literally have to be an insider and have two of the previous five years in football administration administration which is actually a problem because if you had An outsider like a Kofenon who I think would be great to take over a new FIFA According to their rules right now, he cannot run.. I had a good experience doing it in twenty eleven. It was fun. It got people to thinking, I think, why does no one ever run against this set bladder guy And put out some of the Honestly, common sense issues Um day needed to be considered about making FIFA cleaner or trying to or getting it a point where it wasn't this joke of an organization I mean, the aftermath of Grant's unsuccessful campaign brings us to This sort of buffet of self dealing and in the eyes of the Justice Department, criminal activity Now at eleven FIFA raid They corrupted the business of worldwide soccer to serve their interests and to enrich themselves. leaders of soccer's global governing body accused of tarnishing the sport by taking one hundred fifty million dollars in bribes and payoffs. Seven high ranking officials of FIFA. soccer's international governing body were arrested at a five star hotel in Switzerland. They're among fourteen people indicted by U. S. prosecutors Yeah, I mean, at that time Loretta Lynch was in charge of the Justice Department. and I remember these raids that go on in Switzerland where these people are basically chucked out of their beds in the middle of the night and say, you know, you're under arrest under US jurisdiction. It included the takedown of Chuck Blazer, who admitted to conspiring with other members of the FIFA executive commommittee to accept bribes for the hosting rights for the twenty ten World Cup, which went to South Africa, including a failed bid for Morocco to host. They will host in twenty thirty. But there are all of these people that were all of a sudden under the purview of the American government. neverever mind the public that thought what's going on within this organization. Right. It gets to the point where in june twenty fifteen, Sep Bladder is forced to resign as FIFA president, FIFA Chief Seth Blatatter has said he's to step down just four days after being reelected to a fifth term at the helm of football's world governing body, which is embroiled in a corruption scandal. The seventy nine year old made the announcement during a hastily convened press conference in Zurich saying that although he decided to stand again because he was convinced it was the best option for football, he added that his mandate does not seem to be supported by everyone in the world. We've been watching fquels to the rise of Johnny Infantino That's the guy Who replaces B blladder The job that I think Ranwall should have had Jhny Fino, one of his aspects of the campaign was I need to sit down with Grant Wall. And so This is february twenty fifth, twenty sixteen. This is the day before Infantino gets elected president and They meet What are the most important parts of your plan as FIFA presresident? We have to be very transparent, very open. and for me, For me, the most important part is the transparency on the money flows. If you are transparent and f has nothing to hide O generating money, it's good. FIFA generates money. So where the money comes from and where it goes. And if this is transplant, we solve ninety five percent of the real or perceived problems of FIFA Nothing to hide It's staggering. Time He was incredibly popular because first off Really, his name at the time was not Gianni Infantino, his name was not Set Bladder And people were so excited at this idea. and he said all of the right things That sounds like the kind of FIFA that leads to a better place. Well, the idea that Johnny Ffantina would sit down with the guy in Grant Wall, who is not only the number one American soccer journalistic authority, but also the guy who is calling for transparency is a recognition that okay, yeah, there are some things I got to change and so let me go and address this with the guy who is most Vociferously calling for it Again, just yet another tragedy of this is I would love to know what Grant thinks of what Johnny Infantino has become since President this is You're Priice, This is your peace Priice There is also beautiful medal for you that you can wear Everywhere you want to go Right now. Okay Let me hold Fantastic. Excellent He has World Cup to World Cup from Russia, I think it was sort of a little bit more tenuous, but Qatar, he was all in and obviously has been completely all in with the presresident for twenty twenty six as well He sort of has this way of showing basically this thing is in their hands And FIFA plays a role, but I'm going to completely embrace what whoever's in charge of the country they were going to has to say and wants to do. And It's completely different to what he said he was going to do When he said, quote, it's good that FIFA generates money Yeah, I suppose that part does hold up All of this now takes us to Qatar and the twenty twenty two World Cup. where Brant had shown up as an independent journalist and podcaster wanting to cover two huge stories The first of them having to do with the reported six thousand five hundred migrant workers who died in the country in the decade after Qatar was awarded the World Cup This according to the Guardian But Grant really wanted to see it for himself. I'm in Doha, Qatar. and it's Several months ahead of the World Cup and I haven't publicized that I'm in Qatar for a reason. because I just want to speak to migrant workers And I want to ask them what their experience is like how they've been treated by their employers. whether they're actually able to change jobs under the new laws here in Qatar because we hear a lot from the Qataris and the World Cup Supreme Committee here about all the advances that have taken place. and yet there are still reports. that things haven't changed that much. So A lot of questions here I am Ted to lay low. I came here by myself I didn't come with any cameras. I have zero desire to be detained. and to be honest The Qatari should want independent journalists to come and ask questions and find out what the real story is because that's the only way people are gonna to believe them. But that story was only one of the two scandals that he was pursuing during that twenty twenty two World Cup And The second one raised even more questions about who would have wanted Grant Wall Silenced This is the part that has stuck in my brain most. vividly because For those not familiar in Qatar, same sex marriage is not just illegal There are many reports, according to humuman Rights Watch of gay citizens being abused, detained. It's among the most dangerous destinations for LGBTQ travelers, according to lots of reporting. In Cter for the World Cup todayay, Secretary of State Tony Blinken, and avid soccer fans from Youth criticized FIFA's decision to threaten World Cup players with yellow cards if they wear one love armbands supporting gay rights. Qatter's laws forbid gay relationships Clinolen, leading the U. S. delegations And into that Same setting Walks Grant and his notebook Again, this is sort of one of those ways in which you are part journalist and part advocate. He strongly advocated on behalf of the community to be able to freely enter the country and freely enjoy the World Cup as any other person could enjoy the World Cup Well, he was also fact checking what Johnny Infantino had said in public I've been speaking about this topic with the highest leadership country Several times, not just once They have confirmed and I can confirm Everyone is Welcome This is a clear FIA requirement. Everyone has to Be welcomome. Everyone that comes to Qatar is welcome. whatever Religion, race, sexual orientation, belief She or he has. And so Grant ends up doing interviews. and he tells you, Chris, some of what he learned. Yeah, I mean, if you read my website, part of the Qatar Chronicles part two was about what US soccer has been doing to get prepared for coming to Qatar. And they had hired, and I interviewed, a compliance officer who' lived here for Last six years or so, Lisa Sod And And we specifically talked about the rainbow flag. And like, what about fans or anybody visitors here wearing the rainbow flag in a country where Same sex relationships are illegal FIFA and Lisa Asad, by the way, told me like everyone has told me that you know if you just have a rainbow flag, there is no problem at all. The problem will come if you've had a few drinks and you're making out with Your gay partner in public. And then there definitely will be a problem All it is to say that Grant makes this conscious decision. to pack a particular item of clothing Given the reporting he's just done Yeah. so he packs this black t shirt with a ring in the middle, which has an image of a soccer ball and then a sort of rainbow cascading from it. And so that shirt I should also call attention to this visually. That shirt did recur. It did make another appearance and My conversation with Celine You can't help but notice that you are wearing a particular t shirt that those who are not watching but are merely listening that they may need to be caught up on Could you explain be the shirt that you're wearing Yeah, so I'm going tilt down so you can see a little bit better. It is not the identical one that Grant wore. I actually gave the one Grant wore in Qatar to his brother Um as a gift. His brother Eric is gay, his brother had experienced harassment and bullying growing up in Kansas City as a gay boy in the seventies and eighties His brother, Eric actually told him not to wear it. becausecause he was afraid of what that would mean Grant W it Anyway. which was sort of this declaration that ball is meant to be inclusive of LGBTQ people as well. And so he wears this shirt to a stadium at the World Cup and they basically prevent him from entering the stadium with the shirt on. I get to the stadium, go through the media, check in U and from the moment I get there Security says, like puts me aside And they're letting other media people go through and they're like, oh, this is interesting. And then B I still wasn't one hundred percent certain It was about the shirt I was wearing And then a guard said, your shirt, you have to remove it And u I was like, no don mean I don't know how many times I said no to these guys tenen, fifteen, twenty. att one point And this security guard is looming over me angrily demanding that I take my shirt off. It's like now U I will not do that. I knew what my rights were. And as I hear Grant tell you about this at the time, it reminds me like this is This is in the tradition of his FIFA presidency, of his campaign, his stunt On some level, when you see the shirt are also reminded of how utterly inoffensive it is. Yes. imagery that is so normal, that is so inoffensive' no acronym on it. It's just a rainbow the other round a soccer ball. The other fascinating thing too is Pablo that. You're not going to see the Emir of Qatar The fact that this message would have come from somewhere very high and trickled all the way down the levels to where the security people outside of the stadium are aware to see the shirt that that color pattern It was enough to evoke. Ohh no, I need to stop this It's not like I am doing something provocative. I have family members who are gay. I have lots of friends who are gay And I can't help but think about the gay people who are in Qatar and what they have to deal with and and fear in jail and you know, what it's like but it's not during the World Cup And if I'm getting treated as a visitor, as an American, as someone who has you a somewhat significant media following, well, then how are those people being treated Um, and that's Pretty awful to think about And the other part that was classic Grant Wall was that He used his megaphone to tell the world about all of this And it made its way back to very notable sports figures like Brianna Scurry. I had just finished reading, you know, how he wore the The target, the rino a rainbow target on his chest and u I just laughed. I'm like, that's Grant. And I'm like, the man has no Far I he just He just did it. and then so all of that is the pretext That's the image. Everybody is imagining around the world, this journalist had been detained when Just two weeks after that, he collapsed and Seline recalled what it was like for her to hear about it People had tried to resuscitate and perform CPR, but he was quickly taken away by ambulance And so I Figured out which hospital it was, called the hospital They didn't know anything yet. Finally, a couple hours, maybe two, three hours later, I get a call from the attending physician in the ER You said, your husband is no more Um And that's how I got the news. Um That's more than a clinical diagnosis. That's this oddly translated just like declaration, isn't it And then that's why I'll never forget the words. There was something just strange about that. It's like not only is he dead He's gone in this whole other way. I got point out, Chris, you know, talking to Dr. Celine Gounder, who is again, an epidemiologist So navigated public health communications during COVID I mean, she has the ability asuring the first Ebola outbreak as well God, just like her ability to very calmly compartmentalize and explain tragic things affecting lots of people. I was struck by that And I was also struck by the way in which that scene, that line, your husband is no more It was just the beginning of the nightmare for her because It is worth remembering that as a perfectly seemingly healthy forty nine year old, There was not just speculation around foul play But also because of the COVID vaccine There was now this this resesponse that was targeting his wife Yes Braantt had been very supportive. and also encouraging others to get their vaccinations Um, you know, twenty two, we were still not out of the woods with COVID yet you had peopleople saying, o, why are all these young people dying suddenly must be the COVID vaccines? And they said this about Grant. And The meanness, the cruelty of you killed your husband that I got from people I mean, I think that just speaks to what their actual incentives are and their values And I just, you know, I just want to acknowledge how fucked up. Yeah, ands sort of chilling that is. Imagine you're sort of dealing with this unimaginable tragedy. You thought you're going to spend the rest of your life with this person And then it sort of becomes this political lightning rod, the death of your own husband that you're still struggling even three and a half years later. Even the way that she was talking there and the way that I have felt at times recording this episode, it still is incredibly hard to process. When you were talking to her, there's some clips there in the video of the dog running up to her. I was like, oh my God, I haven't seen that dog I haven't seen that dog in four years. That dog used to run up to him and interrupt tapings all the time. like Oh like the dog's barking in the background. I gott to go run and deal with the dog and it's just I'm dealing with it still And the fact that in the process of that, I was reading those replies to her too going, what What's wrong with you people? Another way in which this was foreshadowing, just like the darkness that would sort of immerse our country. But what she does because she is a physician, an epidemiologist and someone who is seearching for clarity for her own sake and for the sake of quieting this apparent discourse. What she does is she gets an autopsy And she has Grant's body examined and the conclusion acccording to what the medical examiner found after a very thorough and rigorous examination, is something called an ascending aordortic aneurysm a blood vessel that carries, you know, oxygenated blood from the heart. Ruptured because it had weakened Apparently slowly and in a way that was undetected over time And Celen had Tourists explain that to people I had some ideas about what it might be and aortic aneurysms were on the list. is list of conditions, pulmonary embolisms or another that can cause sudden death and otherwise young healthy people and So They had even before they completed the full autopsy, they the initial findings, they knew what it was. So on they gave me that news, it was sort of like, okay, that That makes sense. makes sense and The other reason, know, as it turned out that having the autopsy was so important is notot just conspiracy theories about was he killed, but also conspiracy theories about whether COVID killed him or COVID vaccines, I should say, more precisely And so being able to put all the different conspiracy theories to rest Having that understanding of what actually happened was an important source of closure which means that here we can also say with great certainty that it was not The bronchitis that was mentioned by Grant in that podcast he did with you the day before he died. That wasn't it. It wasn't An assassination, it wasn't some other conspiracy It was something that was in its own way, mundane Insofar as How could you have even guessed that this would be something that Grant was dealing with. and that not everything is a conspiracy Sometimes things just happen And because Celine, who is again, so gracious to talk to us for this episode because she's the number one champion of Make sure you get the facts right about what happened to my husband It also lets us truly celebrate the facts he did get right as a journalist, which I want to also say he did tell you about Chris J days before he passed It's something I felt when I came here in February and talked to migrant workers was that there's a decent chance I might get detained. I got detained today Um And You know, and if that happens, then does it help to have eight hundred thousand followers on Twitter? Yeah. Better believe it. but also it helps to be a journalist with a U. S. passport. And I knew coming here that I had that behind me And so even if I had gotten detained, I was like, I made the calculation of You're doing the right thing I just think it's really important to be on the right side of history with all this stuff I often feel like we're living in a documentary whether we know it or not And it's important to be the good guys in the documentary It is another thing though to as granted, actually go to the places and report the things so that people know what the difference between truth and disinformation looks like and to use whatever influence and power and he sort of mentioned things that are in his favor. He's a white guy, he's an American journalist. He has all these things. he can get into his megaphone to the world to incredibly important people. messages that are and worth hearing There are plenty of people who have accrued that level of following and use it to talk about far more trivial things. And I'm not necessarily saying that everyone who gets into this has to be outspoken about governments and outspoken about governing bodies. I'm not like holding everyone to that standard. I don't hold myself to that standard. I don't have the gumption that he has But when you do It's incredibly powerful and it can do a lot of good for a lot of people. And I also just need to acknowledge too, Chris, that You're doing us a real service here by remembering your friend. Yeah, I mean, it's not a service to you. It's a service to him really and to his family and a legacy that is worth remembering And yet, before we let you go here, there is one thing we did not prepare you for But you happen to allude to it earlier And there is one more member of Grant and Celine's family that I think you and also the rest of the United States should become reacquainted with Well, this little guy who's sitting next to me, you want to come and say hi So this is ZZoo And you can see what he's wearing U You can see in the camera this way. Yeah, there we go. Yes. this is easZude. he's wearing the number ten Um And Zu is named after Zenidine Zadan, Zu is his nickname So soccer was a big thing in our house. you can see, the French national team kit that Zizu was wearing is of course, a very particular reference to yes, this legendary, I mean, all time great Iconic player in Zidan But also u worn by an iconic dog Wh I recall from Grant's Twitter feed actually, an Instagram account. and what an honor for me to meet Zizzu at the end here Yeah, you know, and that was Grant's first big story was the ninety like soccer story was the ninety eight World Cup So that story, that team Also was really important and informative in his in his career Well, it was France winning the World Cup in France And it sounds like what I'm finding out at the end here is that while the editors of Sports Illustrated did not want to put that on the cover of their magazine Grant found a way to commemorate this Yes with your dog. Pair dog who lives on Zizu what a legend? A legend. And noted listeners of the podcast will know that he made several contributions. the podcast through barking in the background of interviews with soccer luminaries because that dog was vocal. Ict actually now kind of feel bad of the number of times that I edited him out of the podcast. What I'm also finding out here at the end then is that Chris Whittingham didid in fact silence Zeeu Wall. I am the dark hand A conspiracy him down. a conspiracyacy to hold down the dog. It rears its head despite our best effs Uh Chris Whittingham in honor of I guess Mike Ditka who had the cover of SI instead ofZizu. I hope at one point you could break out a cigar of your own and remember, Grant Walls coaching tree. has resulted in something special. We all stand on the shoulders of giants and he was definitely one of them and I miss him a lot everyvery day and it was it was nice to talk about him. Thankk you Pablo Thanks for doing Pab Latori finds out is produced by Walter Avoroma, Maxwell Carney, Ryan Cortez, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neili Loman, Rob McCray, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, and Chris Tumonello. Studio Engineering by RG Systems, sound desesign by Andrew Bersk, Digital strategy by Baile Carlin and Andrew Norththern, theme song as always, by John Bravo We'll talk to you next time