Final Appeals and Future Hopes

Hey Pablo here And I just need to tell you that today we're re airing What might be the most important episode we've ever done on this show, which is the story of Charles Flores And the reason we're re airing this episode with this new intro that you're listening to for me is out of a truly desperate sense of urgency Because on june fifteenth, the U. Supreme Court released the results of its June conference And the Supreme Court officially denied the petition filed by Charles and his attorneys And ively refused to review his case without any comment. Which means that Charles and his attorneys have exhausted all available legal avenues on both the state and federal levels, which we'll explain more about in this episode and in the post sccript afterwards But the thing I need you to know right now is that there is a very different petition that you can sign that would be extremely helpful to Charles Flores. And so we're going to link it in the show notes right now. It's not going to take very long for you to check out Of course, time is of the essence as you'll see Welcome to Pablo Torere findinds outut. I am Pablo Torere, and today we're going to find out what this sound is Sooner or later the truth's going to come out And I'm gonna to have that opportunity bank I was literally getting pennies using Wealthfront. Ching. There's this much that I'm getting in interest and I didn't have to do anything. Clients like Angela earn up to four point two percent API on their cash with the Wealthr cash account. Get started at wealthfront dot com C cllients paid one thousand dollars for their testimonial creating a conflict of interest outcesary. three point three percent b API as of january thirtieth, twenty six is representative variable and earned onunds sw to program bank. point five percent new clients whoose for three months and up to one hundred fifty thousand dollars. 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I loved spending time on the road Just driving around this country But one place I had never been before is a town in East Texas called Livingston Livingston is the home of the Polensky unit A Super Max prison Owise known as Texas' death row You may recall that we sent PTFO correspondent Dave Fleming to this place back in october twenty twenty four. Be we wanted Dave to find out about the apparently enormous role that football fandom plays for the inmates here. The men whose last words before state execution sometimes even wind up being shout outs to their favorite NFL team which in a sense, says everything Today More than a year later and ahead of Superowl Sunday It is my turn to meet our guide to a fandom that is truly unlike any other a remarkable inmate by the name of Charles Don Flores The person you can hear right now as he's walking down the hall to the Plsky Unit's visitation room This surreal place with a painting of Cookie Monster on the wall behind me An eerie Star Wars mural across the way And a thick pane of glass, which forever separates the inmates from their kids Theyir family, their visitors Charles Flores spends almost all of his life at the Pelenssky Unit In solitary confinement. Are you doing, brother G. Charles But now as we'll explain, He is running out of time evenven though he never should have ended up in here. at all It occurs to me that You spend twenty three hours a day in solitary Yeah And so you have an hour with me and I am really grateful that you're taking the time Thanks so much for caring and for coming down here and for Take an interest in my situation and you know, because it's not just about me, it's about all the guys down here, right? I'm just one person Out of, you know, almost two hundred people down here The other reason I'm here, of course, is You're the pablatori finds out official Dallas Cowboys correspondent. That's right. And so the first question that I have for you is how about them cowboys? Oh man, How about them cowboys? What happened I think that they weren't able to adjust on defense I think it come down to They had some good players But they didn't have the right players to fit the scheme that Aber Flus was running And then When they realized that and they tried to change it, it was like the position coaches D didn't have them ready And then the biggest moments they failed when against Detroit, you know? Yeah They were playing ten yards off the wide receiver offer Jameson Williams the fastest dude on the field. you're going to give him ten yards He was gone They were covering him with the safety Come mom, I'd be like me trying to cover. Well can I read you, can I read you the em message that you sent us? Because, I need to hold you to account as a guy with takes. All right. referening Jamasonon Williams, referencing Maddie Brflus, referencing the coaches. This is what you said, may twenty twenty five quote So in case you didn't hear, this is the year the Cowboys win another Super Bowl, exclamation Boy, you heard it here first. And what it happens, remember I predicted it, I'm so pumped about the upcoming NFL season in college football too, end quote. And then some stuff happened I was thinking about you on january fourth Yeah. How did you feel in truth about playing the giants last game of the season and what you wanted After the Detroit game, I didn't want them to win another game Be I wanted a top ten pig, a top eight pig, you know to be able to get the player that they need And if you ask me what they need, they need a big defeensive in that can rush You know what I'm saying? It's so Th don't grow on trees. them are at the top ten. You had one, You had one of those He wasn't big enough. Michael Parsson wasn't big enough. Yeah. If you ever watch like, for instance, whenever they would play the San Francisco Fty nineers Trent Williams put his handles on him and it was over He'd eliminate him And whenever he would play an elite D defeensive tackle like that that happens to Because he's a linebacker he's linebacker size, right? Six, three, two, fifty. Yeah. you need six five two ninety coming off that end, right? And so I love Michael Parsons. Paying half of your salary to three guys What would have been insane? We're just we're we're doing now we're doing what would have been insane? So so we're doing PTI now we're debating now. Y're own part of interaction. Oh have name Are you kidding me? Are youid Mikeael Parson wasn't big enough. He's the best player on the team. best player. Okay, hold on, hold on a I want to point out that you guys have the number twelve pick, the number twenty pick now. Yes And you have a priority that you're placing on the future, on the long view of the next generation. of Cowbooy star. Yeah. If you could tell the Dallas Cowboys a specific thing Give him a take What do you want to tell them I think they've got to stay on defense. They can't get enamored with another offensive player no matter who it is. you have to draft defense And you have to be able from the inside out. You got to put that defensive in that big guy You gott to find him, you got to put him on there. And then with the twentieth pick, get a lineback. And Dan and Jerry Jones You have to spend some money in free agency You got it, ye Charles Charles. It's a remarkable thing It's a remarkable thing. Oh yeah. 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A sixty four year old woman who was shot and killed during a break in at her home just outside of Dallas But Charles is worth noting was never accused of being the person who shot Betty Black even carrying a weapon In fact, there has never been any physical evidence linking him to the crime at all what Charles was accused of, instead was being a knowing participant in the murder and attempted robbery to which Charles pleaded not guilty, maintaining to this day, that he wasn't at the house in question at all. But how Charles Flores was still found guilty of capital murder, despite all of that really blew my mind about his case. because it involves this video person thing I rembember is when I looked out the window And I saw a car pull up into the driveway Remember it was a PW Pg? And I remember seeing you guys get out And I remember looking at the passenger And she got out and remembering this dark hair but basically the same as the drivers' In the absence of physical evidence, what the state of Texas did was use a tactic called forensic hypnosis on the eyewitness in this video This is the victim's neighbor A woman named Jill Bargainier Jill Bargenier had initially told police that she saw two white men bothoth with long, dark hair Step out of a multi cololored Volkswagen and head toward her neighbor's house And in a photo lineu Bargoner picked out a tall white guy with long dark hair named Richard Childs as the driver. But Bargonier did not identify Charles Flores, not initially And then the forensic hypnosis happened Have you ever seen a documentary film like on TV like the The Animal Kingsdom showh or you know What we're going to do is is when we get you into a deep data hypnalysis, we're going to take you into a theater It's going to be your own private theater Oh And basically what it is you're going to be seeing the documentary. And you're going to be seeing the film of the events that occurred on that day on that morning U I'm going to ask you to verbalize I'll tell you more about the scientific absurdity of this tactic in a bit. But what you need to know right now is that at the trial of Charles Flores, more than a year later Jill Bargenier finally identified him As the passenger, Richard Childs had been driving Even though Charles course has never looked like a tall white guy with long dark hair And here's the kicker In the state of Texas, there is something called the law of parties. which punishes knowing participants in a capital murder as if they themselves had fired the gun. Which is all to say that Charles Flores got sentenced to death in nineteen ninety nine because a forensically hypnotized witness belatedly identified him as the passenger of the actual gunman, Richard Childs By the way proceeded to strike a plea bargain admitting to being the killer once Charles got convicted Which is how Richard Childs eventually got released on parole back in twenty sixteen ten years ago now while Charles remains trapped here onene hundred and sixty one men. awaiting execution Can you describe the surroundings for people who are just hearing us talk Well, I'm a Texas death row prisoner And we're Polonsky unit in the visitation room Yeah. I mean, you've been here for how long now twentyenty six years since ninety nine. Since ninety nine and Among the one hundred and sixty one, Are you one of the elder statesmen by now? A you one of the vets? Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't I don't want to Nothing to be proud of, I guess, but yeah, I've been here a long time. and so I am one of the one of the old school old school cats here. and it's kind of funny because I've read that Eplore Austin I sted aids that they were inside their head when they were locked up. So I you know, I got here I was twenty eight, I think, I believe. M And then A lot of times I still think I'm twenty eight, you know? And then when people hey, old school Who the hell's that fa talking to? You know what I' say? But it's me. I'm fifty six years old now You know what I'm say So that is surreal It's kind it's kind of hard I'mperraan guess What do you remember about? America, the outside world in nineteen ninety nine. whereere the last things you remember? tell you I'll tell you an interesting story. in nineteen ninety eight Okay, that was the last time I was freak Ihead. A cell phone and it was the first digital cell phone that had come out because before then they were analoged There wasnt no text. There wasn't no pictures, much less internet or anything. It was just clear, you know what I'm saying And that was like state of the art So imagine that But now, how aware are you of all the things that have happened? Oh man, it's just it's just so, you know, remember, we didn't have TV Here Yeah, four until what? twenty? twenty twenty three TV's were only available in the Polensky units starting two years ago. Exactly Just so you know how much of a football fan I am. The first thing that we got to watch Was the chiefs beating the Eagles and the Super Bowl What did it feel like to watch the Superowl It was amazing. because Back in the Y in ' ninety eight They didn't have all the angles and all the ways to see the game And to have that camera jumping around like that, it was just it was almost like disconcerted I never we've never seen her, right Now everybody's used to it. Yeah, but wow, it's amazing. I mean, you tune back in and suddenly this is the thing that is the only thing that everyone can gather around is football. That's what's that's what's happened out here is that football's only become the most important thing in America. That's right. That's right. And so we're talking, by the way, ahead of the Super Bowl And so can you explain where the Super Bowl now ranks among events here. Okay, so so it's probably a revolving thing. Christmas, Thanksgiving, Super Bowl But let me tell you, if the Texans make it Super Bowl is going to be number one You know, because The biggest population back there are the guys from Houston Yeah. I don't know about CJ Shroud, but man that defense is scary And you remember the Baltimore team that won the Super Bowl with Trp Dal for? They remind me of that Did't watch it, but I listen to it right. I was gonna to say You were listening to to this. listen to it. Yeah. They had Jamal. what was it was Jamal Anderson was running back? It was Jamal Lewis. Lewis. Okay, I knew it was Jamal.ers Falcons running back Jamal Lewis Ravens running back. Yeah. you remember they they had a run game. Yeah. ye And they had a quarterback who was just Yeah Yeah, you can hear that. You can hear them just being an as you as you're following the game. That's right. So can you remind us just like how you watch the game? There's a TV now Yeah And so just you're again in solitary twenty three hours a day And you have these, I mean, you're in a cement box. It's a tiny cement box, steel doors, but there are There's like an opening where you're just like watching the communal television out in the hall, basically. Yes. Yeah. The sail is nine foot wide foot long At the front of the cell, I have a door that's about Booyace heart They have two cutouts, Three inches wide and then about three foot. I see And it's not glass, it's this wire. Okay, they don't have glass in it So that allows the sound to come in a lot better and you know, we can talk and all that. But you're watching through the little diamonds on like the chain link wire, basically. Exactly. So I have some legal work that I make a makeshift like stool And it's about the size of the chair or this stool that I. Your papers from your case now decades long. Eact is now big enough to be. Yeah, rightight. go. I believe it So when I'm watching TV, when I'm watching football have my my stool at at the front of the cell And I'm sitting, you know, how about this close And I usually have a book. put on the sink and that's my in table. So I have my drink there, maybe if I have or whatever, Nachos or whatever, you know what I'm saying? They're there And then like Some of the place First down and you know, and they run the ball. I'm just sitting here. But like if it's third and ten or whatever, I get up Yeah, I get up and I'm looking I'm looking through that diamond I'm watching because I'll have to get as close as I can. Right. You can get on the stack of papers now. Yeah yeah but when it's time to really watch, you got to get You' close. You're putting your eye, you're making a diamond shape with your hands and you're looking right through. Yeah. And I'm actually looking through one of these squares. You're picking one and then Yeah focusing in on that. Yeah. And the TV The TV is probably M far or less from here to the blue wall the behind the maches. So what a row of bending machines behind me and there's a blue wall right there. Yeah twenty five, thirty, thirty foot away, something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But where I'm at, I'm in the Face face program and we got a fifty inch TV It's like one of the parkks inst'all the wall So I' safe, pretty good. Right. Do that little diamond, you can see. Yeah I'm blessed. To be, that's blessing? Well, well it's this thing. That sports allows Yes, that I really want to like understand because the Super Bowl comes around and it's this holiday. And I imagine there are rituals here L food. Like how does that work on Super Bowl Sunday Remember When you're sent to prison You're taken away from your people. You're taken away from You're cling, you're taken away from Ething that you know and you love and you agree with, then you're put here and then select Being a fan of something That's part of being in society And even though we're locked away being a fan, me being a cowboy fan of the brothers back there, you know, being super hype about the Houston Texans That's their connection to one of the connections to the free world Rat And so that's why everybody is so invested in it because it's not just them It's mom at home, it's dad at home, it's the brothers when you call home. That's all they're talking about. That's all we're talking about. And you were just so hype, you know what I'm saying? So that. Super Bow is a big deal And so everybody will make some type of Super Bowl feast, some type of big big meal, right Mm For me Remember the Super Bowl is in the Late afternoon, so you know, it starts about five thirty, six o'clock, right So Ill I'll probably make them Aitizer Nachos or something You know, um And we buy everything that we cook that's already pre. from the person commissary And the prison commissary just imagine that that's our grocery store You buy a big bag of tortilla chips Right You buy a bottle of squeeze cheese A You buy a chili with bean that's in like a microwaveable pack And the key is you got to know how to mix them 's what's Charles Flores's secret to mixing all that stuff Iing If I tell you, I'm have to charge you You can tell that you're a guy who knows you know the secret recipe here. Yeah, ye by my size. I'm sure you can tell. I wasn't gonna say it. W the idea that you guys are all celebrating the Super Bowl individually, but together. But together because remember, imagine like you see these booths here You, imagine there's a dude in each one. Yeah, and But we're all at the at the at the front We're all there. So I can talk to the guy here. I can talk to the guy next to. I can talk to the guy at the end if if I If I shout loud enough. Yeah It's just like if you're at home because When the commercial comes on or whatever, you know, that's we're like, man, did you see this play? How about, you know, that guy's playing good TJ Stroud, man, don't throw the ball again. Just run, you know When they go to sack you just go down, you know? But the idea that you're hearing stuff, I want to actually understand like You know, listen to the radio when you first get in here. Um I think about this because the World Cups' coming up this year. Yeah yeah. And I know you're a soccer guy. Yeah And so can you explain like how soccer fandom has worked in here and how you first started like tuning in and You know, that's amazing because in in the free world I really Soccer wasn't a thing And so I really didn't pay attention to it Oh when I got here When you come to prison, bro When you come in And it's a new environment And it's potentially dangerous. You're looking for the people that look like you The white guy doesn't go sit with the black guys. No, the white guysy goes over there and sits with the with the white guys, right? When the Mexican guy comes in, he's not going to the white guys. He's not going to the black guys. He's going to the Mexican guysy, you know, the Latinos that look like him You know And I've always been type of type of guy that I'm I'm proud of being Latino. I'm proud that my people are Americans of Mexican descent I'm proud that I know Spanish U and being able to communicate with the brothers that might not know English very well. Well, it also means you could listen to the better version of the broadcast. Exactly. And so that's where I was going. That's where I'm going. And so with them, there I'm talking about it. We used to listen to The Mexican National team on a scratchy little AN station out of Houston. and they broadcasted all the games and especially the World Cup, the Gold Cup, you know of America all that in Spanish. And when I listen to that all man, it blew my mind, right? And I loved it. I loved it and got I got into following the sport, right? Well, they're having so much more fun. Yes. The Spanish language broadcasters are enjoying their lives. of that. Yeah. And I was wondering are they Are they drinking beer up there what's going on? Be they're having too much fun. Once you hear it, it's hard to s to go It's hard to go back. It's interesting, right? Be for the most part. Not a lot of guys faller soccet But I think it's going that's going to change when we're gonna to finally get to watch it. We didn't get to watch the last World Cup. Of course, right. Yeah.. Yeah every four years. rightight. this time we will Well, I know one of your dreams was to get to see the World Cup Because finally in North America, Oh You know, nobody really warns you about hitting your mid thirties. For me, it felt like I hit a brick wall around age thirty four. I was hitting the same exact workouts and eating the same clean diet, but suddenly everything just felt like I was moving through absolute mud. I was constantly wondering why things they used to be easy fell twice as hard. and turns out most men started losing testosterone Around age thirty, aboutb one percent every single year after that. It affects your energy, your drive and how you feel every day That's exactly why I started using Mars Men. See, I learned that your body actually makes testosterone, but a protein called SHBG basically handcuffs it. It's like having cash in the bank, but your debit card is broken. 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Clients like Angela earn up to four point two percent APY on their cash with the Wealthfront cash account. Get started at wealthfront dot comot Cliients paid one thousand dollars for their testimonial creating a conflict of interest outcomees. three point three percent base API as of january thirieth of twenty six is representative viable and earned funds swept to proaming. point five percent new clientss for three months and up to one hundred fifty thousand dollars D direct deposit one thousand dollars month fund invest account for a point fivecent incase cash account off by Frroage LLC, member Fina S IC not aank I'm Paul Tonorio. I cover soccer for the athletic. And I'm Amy Lawrence. I cover football for the athletic. Whatever you call it, the biggest competition in the sport is happening right now, and the athletics World Cup coverage has everything you need to follow the tournament This forty eight countries taking partark from the tiny island of Kuracao to the five time Champions Brazil Even if you don't know your offside from your on side, if you're eager to know more about the teams, the matches, all the stories on and off the pitch, we've got you sorted. Maybe you're the kind of person who's already up early every weekend waking the neighbors when your favorite club scores We'll make sure you get equipped with more information, more insight than anyone you know. We've got more than seventy obsessive reporters on the ground, covering the ins and outs from every game. I almost forgot to mention the best part, Amy. free access to the Athletics World Cup coverage in our app Download the athletic app and see you there Qion of what you were hoping for and what you were dreaming about I want to establish that like you specifically are the reason that I've been king this that I didn't know existed called forensic hypnosis. And so the fact that this thing existed for so long And the fact that you have been a name and a face that has popped up in the coverage of the story over time. Yes Like, well last decade Of the practice of police hypnosis, which is a real thing that exists in America The last decade it tracks alongside your last decade of hoping and appealing and trying to see if you could actually get out of here.. And so I just want to go back to twenty sixteen Because in twenty sixteen, I'm just looking The notes I've written down here. Yes. I mean, you were days away from execution days. Could you just describe what it was like to be five days away from The day It was surreal. So It's one of those situations you got to be there You got to you got to bring in the cell next to me to experience that, right but I'll do my best. I remember the last visit before I got my st of Eccuses because I got five days away And it was a Friday and my mom and my brother come to visit me. And if that wasn't enough My father had died two weeks before my schedule execution And so I was so traumatized. I wasn't numb. I couldn't have feel no more.. It was up there I couldn't full it But I remember that. B to be strong for my mother. I had to be the one that encouraged and gave hope And so instead of Having a bunch of people console me. I was the one that was talking about, well, man, it's not over yet, it's not over yet. becausecause that's how I felt. That's what it was. And I remember telling her That the The appeal that was filed on the hypnosis stuff, because I'd had a whole string of attorneys before that telling me that that was not a claim. I couldn't I couldn't use it. It had been settled in the court before Yada yada, yada, yada, yada. And essentially, they're telling me, no, your ass is dead, you're fixing her die All you got left is mitigation And in Texas It's a rap. You know what I'm saying? If you're if you're Counting on hypnosis to save me. it's over But we had this claim. it came up at the last minute and I had a new attorney that was helping me. He was a professor at American University. and so it was him and a class of third year law students that were able to put this appeal together in about forty five days and follow it Pam And I remember when I got it I sat down and I read it Then I read it again Then I read it a third time And I knew that it was the best appeal that had been filed. for me And if the court heard it, I'd get a stay And I might walk out this place. You know, And at that time, I thought I thought that would be that would be the one that would That would get me out of here And so fast forward to that visit And I told my mother, I said, Mom, just imagine like we're at the casino in Las Vegas And we're betting the farm We're gonna bet everything that we got on this appeal And if we if we win, I'm gonna to get out of here And if we lose, well, I'll see in heaven, you know But believe me, I've got hope because this is the best appeal that was ever followed. I. So that was That was the mindset. That's what I had in my mind. I wasn't so much thinking about myself. I was thinking about my parent, my mom We just lost my dad. I knew if If they executed me it is going to kill her You know what I'm saying That was the The level The stakes in my situation And what happened next on may twenty seventh, twenty sixteen Five days before the state of Texas was scheduled to kill Charles Flores really needs to be heard to be believed Because what Charles just said is true His legal team had filed an appeal with newewfound hope The practice of forensic hypnosis had long been criticized as fundamentally flawed, if not right absurd. Given that it really is what it sounds like The police hypnotizing a person Like the previously mentioned eyewitness, Jill Bargier. so that they can supposedly recall traumatic events with supposedly greater clarity R that I'm going to ask you to concentrate a focus on the tiny on the hundred ein little muscles that are on the bottom of your feet Three two form Oes zero But what Charles's lawyers did, with the clock ticking down was build their case around the state's twenty thirteen junk science law Texas state article eleven point zero seven three. And they had this memory expert, named Dr. Stehven Lin, testify that the hypnosis of jail Bargainer was done horribly wrong. likely creating a false memory of a person, Charles Flores whose face had been plastered all over the news in the months after he got arrested Which now brings us back to what happened on Friday, may twenty seventh, twenty sixteen This was ours after Charles's mom who had justust been visiting. Maybe for the last time. had driven away. I didn't find out about about itntil like nine o'clock And I found out about it on the radio the exact same radio that he had used to listen to NFL broadcasts and soccer games in Spanish That's surreal when you hear, hey, you know oblot Tori death row prisoner has been given a stay of execution You'reight whooa It's like, is this a movie? what what's going on You heard it in your cell. Yeah, ye, yeah.. heard on the radio. On the b Yeah, And thanks to the archive of KPFT ninety point one FM in Houston which broadcast a program every Friday called the Prison Show, where the hosts give updates on inmates' cases You can now hear this too am so excited guys. so excited. getet up and jump up. Charles gota stay. Charles got a stay Get up and tell everyone I'm going read what Greg and I put out. The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals stated Charles' execution date based on doctor Stephen Lyn's affidavit that the only eyewitness identification of Charles was tainted by hypnosis session that was performed with ated science The hypnosis session likely caused a false memory of Charles and a false identification Because the information is newly discovered and likely would have resulted in an acquittal if Charles was tried today, the Court of Criminal Appeals remanded the case back to the trial court for further hearings on the junk science used to admit the hypnosis altered memory of Charles Charles will seek to get a new trial through these hearings. He got to say, guys, we're happy And I wasn't only one. everyverybody heard it. I was gonnaare and everybody was happy That happiness, that cinematically joyous hope that Charles' case would finally get a retrial did not last. In twenty seventeen, the state rejected the appeal of Charles Don Flores. and in twenty twenty, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals upheld the ruling And this is the point in the story where things get even crazier Because in twenty twenty three, in recognition of all of the criticisms we've already mentioned which were extensively investigated incidentally by the Dallas Morning News Texas passed a new law A law specifically banning hypnosis induced evidence from being used in criminal trials There was sort of, you know, a shockwave that went through Texas about wait, are we really allowing law enforcement to hypnotize witnesses This is the person who represented Charles pro bono since twenty sixteen his lawyer, Gretch and Swin And it was a big embarrassment for the Texas Rangers who were sort of the biggest trainers in this technique. Now the law has changed. It is no longer Lawful. to admit the fruits of a hypnosis session. So if you want to do that Fine, but you're not going to get then what comes out of that. in front of the jury. And that is true in most jurisdictions in this country But as tremendous as this news seeme for Charles Flores There was a confounding and infuriating catch. Charles wasn't able to benefit from this law. There's no retroactive provision here. So a law inspired by his case reflecting a clear sense of, you know, outrage. hasn't benefit a guy on death row. All of which, in our view is profoundly Profoundly. Not retroactive. It didn't apply. It didn't apply It the best So It gets even worse. You know, we had an emergency situation where Attorney general wanted to S an execution date This last sping And it was a miracle. We were able to file an appeal. And then that appeal Head For the first time All of the hypnosis Information unit You heard that right In may twenty twenty five, about seven months after our original episode with Charles Eird. The state of Texas attempted to set an execution date for him. A legal letter even circulated, listing several available dates in november twenty twenty five Gretchen at this point, his lawyer immediately filed a petition claiming that this move was unlawful. And then, in June, she filed a new set of affidavits with the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals And this included new expert declarations that cast even more doubt on the integrity. of the original conviction. So we had new claims, new evidence. We also had a great sworn statement from his original trial lawyer. Wh basically said, if I hadd known any of this I would have been outraged and describing just the pressures he was under, the what was kept from him, how they weren't even given any discovery tntil they were already, you know, you know in the middle of trial and this was standard practice and that he looked back on his own reaction to this. and took responsibility for some of his own choices that were harmful to his client and also expressed his real outrage that this case is where it is and that Charles has not been given a new trial and And that's Pretty amazing stuff Except that by October of twenty twenty five, several months later repetition dismissed procedurally barred without explanation So what this decision was was that we're not going to look at the merits of this claim. notot even looked at it And, you know, it's devastating I get a notice It's what's called a postcard notice. So there's not even an opinion It's just you get a notice saying that something was denied. And it's really hard thing to convey to a client that They brought Very sincerely all this stuff to a court that end is just saying we're not looking at that And what I really came here to hear from you was what it's like to feel like you're not being hurt That almost killed me Aain I That was n I think that Danger, right guy on death row has to deal with is allowing himself to believe that he might get out of here. And so you set yourself up for a fall. You, you set yourself up for a disappointment? And again because it's like It's like groundhall dayay 'cause I get these peel and I read it and I'm like Man, this is amazing I'm reading it and I'm thinking the same thing. Like this makes a ton of sense. And then when you think about it Again, Gretchen, my attorney. She wrote that in like about two weeks and it was like everything feail So it was like a It was like a blessing from the good Lord. I mean, how else All of this stuff just fall aline. We've been working. for five years to try to find an issuist So we can file another appeal R right, I've been in limbo back and forth And so ban It happens. and I allow myself to hope and I allow myself to think about, man, I might just get to see that World Cup I might just get to be watching Dallas Cow boards. you know't I'm allowing myself to imagine my life after death row I actually u allowed myself to think about what I wanted to do when I get out here. What I want to do is I want to take an extended trip And what kind of music would I been listening to? Bting them on the trip So I let myself think about that. I let myself Go there, all right? And then in October On october fourth, you know Bam. It was it was The dream was destroyed And like I said, it almost killed me I'm still not over it, You know what I'm saying? I got a smile on my face. I'm laughing, but man, you know, I'm just D know about the playlist. Do you know what song is the first song? have you have a specific song, you're trying to L that you've imagined The first one that I put down wasas the song, The road goes on forever, and the party never ends And it's a story song And it's about a guy and a girl. You know the song? Okay couldould you give me a little? Do you now you put me on this pot And what the song is about, let me try to give you the background is it's a guy and a girl. they meet in a bar And he was kind of a mess up like me. tried to go to the Navy, but he couldn't pass the test. so he started he got involved in Dealing contraband And then the cops gotot on him and they sent him to the pin. when he got back out, he was back at it again. I didn't met the Cubans So he meets the girl. they drive to Miami and they run out of money The guy has an idea. He knows someome other guys the dealing contraback. So he goes to make the deal He's got the money. They've got the product And as that's going down, the cops run in When he's getting away, he runs to the bathroom, jumps out the back window There's a cop And as she's reading him his rid, his girl comes around in his truck with a single shot four ten And the road goes on forever and the party never ends And later on that night He gives her all the money And he tells her, when the cops catch up to you, tell them that I'll put you up to this And then the story ends twenty I think it's twenty one months later She reads that he's going to the chair. Chair buys of paper and a cold six pack of beer. The headlines re ited sunny is going to the chair She pulls back on the main street and her new Mercedes bins, the road goes on forever and the party never ends. As she gets in her brand new Mercedes bins, the road goes on forever and the party never ends So yeah, it's a pretty it's a pretty pretty dramatic song. It's great though, right? Yeah, it's great. It's great. It's great I want to fill people in on this. like As time is wearing thin here, we have This place to ourselves' right is empty. And There are other people here who are who are scheduled, who are on the docket for execution when I believe someone soon is scheduled What's it like in here as that gets closer? Does the air change? Do what does that feel like So When you get up When you're given an active execution day, there's two death rows There's the their thow where The majority of the guys are there. And it's like suspended animation almost because you don't have the active execution day, right So you're you're going through the appeals process. that's running So you're kind of safe. You're really really never safe here, but but you allow yourself to believe that because I'm not gonna die. next month or six months from now or next year, you know, what a hver hver And then there's the other death row, which is the true death row, which is you have an active execution day. And when you have the execution day put on Death Watch And it's a section of sales, seven on the bottom, seven on the top For all the guys that had this peend and execution date are housed. and in these cells They have a camera in the corner So they're monitoring you. They're watching you twenty four hours a day, seven days a week So make sure you don't hurt yourself so you'll be alive in time for them to murder you. You understand And so There, I think what is it five Four or five guys over there right We not Dath watchatch. is on my partod This is a section This is B section. This is C section I live in C section. My cell is there A section is deathw So when I come three come through today On the way up out here. Bzzy. was in the dayroom. Edie Lee is what we call it. So hllllower. What's up Bley? He's a cowboy fan too, just so you know. So yeah, yeah, yeah. and That's always a reminder He's over there, you know, becausecause sometimes, you know, you get you get caught up in your own thing. You're doing your own thing. so that reality will slip away When you're over there with them, you can't get away from it. You you understand what I'm saying? You can't get away from that Beause you're the one with the day. you know, everybody's around you's got the day. You look up, there's that camera watching. You can't get away from me. I want to be clear about this again for people The man who plleed guilty, who confessed to shooting Betty Black. Yeah. is That's right. You got out on probation. Yeah Th years And and you're still here And I'm wondering if you ever imagine what He's doing now. I try not to think about things that upset me I work real hard at staying peaceful and positive. And yeah, if I start thinking about that, I imagine that might upset me a little bit get angry and it used to In my younger days, I think I used to enjoy getting angry and acting out Now It's like the thing that it that I dislike the most. I hate not being in control of myself And so with the anger because like for anger with me, man, once I start getting angry, it's like I'm hanging onto a rope and I can't cant I can't grab it And it's just slipping away, slipping away. and once I get angry, it's over So that's just something something that've I've learned in as I've matured in life and so yeah, I don't think about that kind of thing. I think about positive things instead I hadn't thought about how the thing you can control And you've worked on controlling for decades is the one thing you can, which is how you choose to feel Yeah When did that occur to you that this was going to be something that Pide in being disciplined about It's interesting because that goes with The spiritual journey that I started, man twenty years ago, all right? and just I had I knew that I had to learn to control myself. took me about Five, maybe eight years point to where I was like, man, I had a problem Problem led me to being in this cell And I can't control. I can't control my reactions. And that's that's emphasis on reactions If somethingomet would happen and I wouldraq. I couldn't I wouldn't think of the consequences I couldn't wait, well, man, if you do this, You know, you're going to get in trouble you know, and and so so n couldn't able weren't able to do that. And it's interesting because point in my life I started hearing a bunch about meditation. I was reading about meditation. I was hearing about meditation on the radio. Everywhere I turned, it seemed like meditation was coming at me And I was like I want to learn how to meditate. And I did And and with the help of friends and people sending me books, send that kind of thing. That was the key That was the key of putting space between the awareness that is me And my ego, which is pride, which is anger, which is all of those things, right And the more you meditate, the more the space is in between There, right And that was what gave me the Candle on controlling. Is that that makeakes sense it's it's Frankly, the only thing that explains how you could be a cowboys fan is this thing S see, I'm at a disadvantage Who's your ky? The browns The steer doesn't show laaughing. laughing. Cllo I grew up a giants fan No The cowboys So january fourth, by the way, a side of that story, which I did not disclose until now is that of course, the New York Giants beat your ass And for that reason, no longer have the number one overic in the end one to five Congratulations This is the irony, right? The irony is that Yes out here in the free world, as you've called it The giants were like, We gota get this win now And meanwhile, you in here have the right logical But paradoxical view. Yeah. If anyone were to have this view of like We're playing for the future. That's right. We want these picks. We want You got it Got gotta have it, like and I just want to make sure that I give you the opportunity to tellell people what you wish for them to hear. because You're still fighting this thing. There are some hail Marys left There' also, hopefully a conversation that keeps going about how it is that a guy who has always maintained his innocence who had zero pieces of physical evidence, DNA or anything at the scene of the crime who was only put in to the Flonsky unit because of a debunked forensic hypnosis procedure. that you can watch on tape and is mind blowing to revisit Charles Don Flores would like them to hear Well, I know this much. suffering. He's universal hood is option Victim hood is been stopped is Rrigam mortis of the mind. It's being stuck and past Slides Past disrespects, past traumas and it doesn't let you The reason that people embrace victimhood that we embrace victimhood is because it gives you the right to feel like you had the audacity to do that to me And I'm so grateful that I've G got to the age in the maturity that I know the difference. And so again, suffering is universal stuff happens. M I keep taking these losses. I keep I keep having these traumatic events happen to me. But in the end, I believe in good I believe in