Cringe Comedy and Character Arcs

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I'm James Dyer and welcome to Pilot TV, your essential guide to every show that matters. And I am joined, as is my wont, by TV's Boyd Hilton. And editor of If You Can't Do the Time, don't do the Crime magazine, Steph Sealin. How you doing? Are you sure Jack Thorn hasn't been on before? This particular podcast. Yeah. He's not spoken to me. Has he spoken to you? Of course. Are you sure? What for? Tell me what for you. I I'm pretty sure we spoke to proof for it didn't happen. Well I mean I haven't got proof but Well there will be proof if it did happen. Yeah. I'm sure I've spoken to Traditionally when you do interviews there is proof because we record them for the show. All right. Smug face. If you would like to do a quick search of all the possibilities. Have we done Jack Thorn. Let's get a number crunch. Yeah. I don't think Jack's been on the show before. Okay. And not just because he said he was very excited to be on the show, because we don't normally have writers on. It's just thrilling on air admin for people. It's good. Yeah. Chuck. All right, we're gonna assume that hasn't happened. Okay Um Okay. But other than that, other than not knowing what we have or haven't been doing in the past, are we good? We're good. Okay, you're good. Oh, the well, the hay fever's getting to me. The hay fever is bad, yes, I will grant you that. If anyone lives or works in and around London's West End, you will know there is a very specific type of tree. I don't know what type of tree it is, for I am not a, you know, botanist, but it sheds these little brown f Furry bits. Yeah. And when it's windy, it's horrific. The dandy lines are shedding as well at the moment, which is really They don't bother me as much. Are you sure? Yeah. The brown bits. Steph, you've been vindicated. Oh brilliant. Oh I love it when that's The Guardian gave Widows Bay five stars and basically said it was a modern masterpiece. Absolutely it is really. The Guardians all over the place at that. It is though. The Guardian agreement. Oh the Guardians under just five you wouldn't give it five stars to be a good thing. But you quite liked it from memory. Yeah, I liked it. No, I tell you what, you both really didn't like it when it was disappointed. Okay, that's that's really unwarranted disappoint disappointment with that. Why would you disappoint it? What we expect. Fine. Fine. But it was it was good and it was f You said it wasn't funny. That was my thing. You said it was funny, but it wasn't forced to me. Every yeah, everyone was kind of No. No, no. Uh a too high a level. Yeah. Okay. Try to be funny. The reviews have generally speaking, I would say skewed more positive than negative. I think it's metacritic rating is in the eighties somewhere. Yeah, I'm gonna say um well they're all right. Um the people on the ground will like it. And also I feel like it's a little bit the people on the ground. Yeah, the people on the ground. Who are the people on the ground? Hold on, this is the first time you've heard the people on the ground. Is this Steph equivalent of the normies? Um a little bit, yeah. Pogs. But the but the phrase goes way back to the original basic bingers of the original basic bingers and missables. We had the pogs. The man on the street, the people on the ground. The pogs, people on the ground. And because there was Terry Wogan's old gitch, remember Togs. He had Togs, the late great Terry Wogan. Listeners and we had pogs. Similar. Yeah. The Pogs. Yeah, but the people I've found love um also do you know what else they really like that I like that you two didn't like as much as I wanted you to? Rooster. Yeah. Which has been renewed for a second season. Yes, it has been renewed. Do you why? 'Cause it was excellent. So and we know's bad probably will get renewed. I bet it will, yeah. Just despite me. Okay. And boyd. You and your s snooty review people. Snooty McGuoty, I believe, as uh as your all three ego would say. It would say that. Yeah. I need to do a correction. to my PSA. Is this gonna hurt? No. Okay. Well maybe. But it was the PSA that I said about people who subscribe to Disney Plus and then started getting it through Sky. You know how Sky took over your Disney Plus? And I said if you had an annual subscription already, it would essentially be put on pause and you'd still then have to stop paying it. And I was just like because that's what I was told by them. That's what the communication said. That's what the email said. But actually I got a stealth refund. And I think and other people I've spoken to have also had stealth refunds. So it turns out that if you do Sort of let Sky take over your Disney Plus and you do have annual an annual subscription, even though it says your account will not go on pause, they will still issue a refund. So it's actually fine. Oh that's good. Yeah. Okay, 'cause I have Disney and I So what do I have to do? Press the button that says I'll go have it through my sky. Pretty much, yeah. And then they'll give me a Disney. And then they take over but the the free one you get through Sky is the ad. Supported version. So just bear that in mind. Oh so it's free. So I just get sort of. If you have Sky, yes, you get add supported Disney Plus. Right. Okay. I'm gonna get Disney free from now on. Yes. With adverts and not in 4K. I don't care about it. Then you're fine. And not in 4K. Not in 4K. H D only. But you did it. I did do it. Okay, well if you're doing it, if you can give up four K, so can I. Yes, but I watch almost everything with my name in the middle of the screen with a giant watermark, so it's not really It doesn't really matter. Uh 'cause I I tend to use the screening lings. Okay, so that was a good bit of Martin Lewising. There you go, you go, P S for you. Not the most scintillated way to start a podcast but I thought it was an important factual being the most important. Okay. Uh let's talk about what we've been watching, Steph. Let's begin with you. What have you watched over the last week? Um I've started watching this show. I don't know whether you would have heard of it. It's a fantastic show. It's called Ted Lasso. I have heard of it. Yeah. You you just started watching it. You just discovered it. Yes. I've just started watching it because in time for the new season. Yes, because there's three seasons of Ted Lasso. And when I did my shrinking two seasons in the weekend, I was like right. I've committed to doing the pit this weekend, right? So we can do a sports special. So I was like, right, I'd better get on Ted Lasso. And obviously the other thing that drew me to Ted Lasso was Phil Dunster, also of rooster fame. Who plays Jamie Tart. Yes. He of the sculpted buttocks. He of the sculpt buttocks and sculpted everything else. And he's wonderful in this. And obviously it's got Bret Goldstein and everybody knows Ted Lester apart from me. And everyone was right about it. It's absolutely fantastic. I'm thoroughly. Thoroughly enjoyed it. How far are you through it? I am three episodes in. Okay, so f season one. Season one, three episodes in. Well Come back to us when you've watched more. No, not because it gets bad, because actually I've enjoyed it pretty consistently, but I would say the show takes some tonal shifts. Oh, I don't want to. I do love eternal shift. Also at the moment I believe they're half hour episodes, are they not? Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't last. They get longer. They get longer and less, I would say, overtly comedic. Oh. So it becomes more it it like there's this sort of segue from season one, season two, and I guess season three as well. is it becomes more of a kind of like a forty five minute drama. comedy elements than a half hour. Oh which of course I wouldn't. No. No. That's a shame it's still really good though. No, it's not that much of a shame. It's still really, really good. I mean it's very up my street, it's Bill Lawrence, it's directed by Zach Braff. It's got everything I would you know. Yeah. It's still really good. Yeah. It's the same kind of shtick as uh as your favourite with Harrison Ford. Yeah, yeah. Um What is It's one thing that it I can't get away from. And I if you can cast your Biton back to season one. You Jason Sidakis. Right. really to me at the moment it basically is a bit like watching you take over a football club because that he he walks like you and there's a little bit of Jamesness about him in the like Yes, there really is. No ruined this. No, 'cause he's sweet like you're sweet. You know, people might not know that, but James is very sweet. And he's just yeah, it does see and 'cause he doesn't know anything about football. It is a bit like you taking over a football club, which I'm enjoying. And I love that. But he knows about football, isn't it? It's more that he's he's a lower. I don't think he knows a lot about football. No, he doesn't know anything about football. What he understands is people, I think isn't the show. Which is the international point remote show. That is, in fact, yes. Yeah, he doesn't know anything about soccer. That's why he doesn't know all the terminology. So long since I'm not going to be able to I think the idea is that he understands people and his wholesomeness makes everyone around him a better human being, which then ultimately makes them better than you. And he's not even using psychology. He's just a really nice person who brings biscuits and does nice things and wants to be able to do that using psychology. Well yeah, but it's a good thing. You bring biscuits. You bring biscuits. But I can't say the word biscuits. Baskets. Baskets. Biscuits. Biscuits? He's not doing innovat what he is he is like Being nice is his kind of just his thing. He's just like innately a kind person. Yeah, yeah, but there's more to it than that, isn't it? And w as it goes on, he comes up with he comes up with schemes and training, that's the whole thing innovative, non routine kind of um as in soccer. Yeah. Um to to to get the get the team on board and to g and to, you know, improve them. Yeah. So but from memory so when you it's interesting 'cause if you just said to me, Oh, describe Ted Lesso going back how many fucking years it first started, I'd be like the way you say Ted Lesso Ted Lesau. Always. Ted Lasso. Tedlasso. Um I I thought it was I would have said, Oh yeah, it's an really inexperienced American. The whole point is he's an American. Coming from uh to to England to manage a a decent team and it's all about him being American this issue, not his lack of knowledge about soccer. But I don't come to mention oh okay, that's interesting that I I've I've completely forgotten about that at the moment. I don't just come to mention it, it is the plot Okay. F He is no knowledge of no knowledge of soccer. In the first episode he's the he the coach guy's having to say, you know, say what some of the terminology is. He doesn't know anything about football. But what's interesting about that show is it's very much a product of the pandemic that I feel like one of the reasons it did so well is 'cause there was a wholesomeness to it and an innate kind of positivity to it that resonated with people who were kind of On the edge of the nervous breakdown. Yeah. Um so that was good. Wha ha had it landed outside the pandemic, who knows whether it would have had the same impact. Oh I think it's a Bill Lawrence. I mean it's still yeah. I do know what is Hannah Waddingham for me because she's so great. And oh do you know Temple's great as well. I mean they're all great. And also, I mean I've barely seen Brett Goldstein in in a shirt in the first three episodes, which I've really enjoyed. That's fair. There's some I would some controversial terms plot turns later on, I would say. It didn't go down well with everyone. The last season I would argue was the least popular among people. Um but I I liked it with him. But he's doing a women's football team for season four, and yeah, that's that's coming in August, August the fifth. I really am. Um the other thing I've been watching um as I go through my um sort of animal phase of watching things. Well, animal insect. I've been watching on Disney Plus. Do you remember last I watched the gorilla thing? The um yeah the David Atenborough thing. About the filming of his gorilla liaison in um You're making it sound seeding. No no no. Liaison. Liaison. Okay, fine. Fine, fine. Not an illicit liaison. He's just a liaison. In in life on earth, in the in the 'Cause there's another documentary about kinda about the same thing on BBC. Yeah, you said. And I haven't watched that one yet. But what I have watched is uh The Secret of Bees on uh Disney Plus. Bees are very in right now. Listen, bees need to be in all the time 'cause they're own the only reason why we're living a and alive, because if they stop pollinating, we're absolutely fucked. Is Melania's got a beehive. She ruined it. I'm just saying, and and she was and she bonded with King Charles over bee bees and beehives and shit Do you know what I bet she doesn't do anything to do with those bees, Melania. You know? I'm not making any comment because uh James would have said that anyway, because heads uh edits at all my political references. Well, luckily probably I wasn't listening at that point, apparently it would have slipped past. I haven't said anything controversial or even I've learned my lessons. Can I can I can I I'm gonna do a plug here for Gee's Bees on Instagram. If you wanna follow a beekeeper on Instagram, follow Gee's Bees. Wow And it's uh basically my friend Graham who because he's Graham. He's a bee influencer. Basically bought a bunch of he's basically set up a bunch of bee hives and his whole Instagram is just him looking after these bees. And the most recent one is he got like a little like a spy camera, little telescopic like that and he threads it into the hive so he can see the queen and stuff inside the hive. That's clear, it's quite good. How many is he doing what is he going viral? I don't know that I'd quite call him viral at this stage, but hopefully if everyone listen to this podcast subscribes to Gee Speeze then maybe you'll get a big boost. That's a good idea. You should he should go on like this morning or something talking about it. Well, then he can be like Bertie Gregory, who is the scient the explorer scientist person who is in this show. And let me tell you, right, bees are so intelligent. It's ridiculous. There is there's a scene a scene. It's not a scene. It's not a scene at all. Where these bees they do this experiment with bees, right? Where the bees have to do two things. Like one of them is like push a bit aside, they to get to the sp um some sweet rewards some w sweet water, right? They have to do but they have to do two things consecutively and they have to figure it out how to do it. And you've got these bees they're pushing things aside, they're opening doors, then they're teaching the other guys how to do it. Listen, watch it. It's amazing. They're open indoors. They they're going in, they found out that bees love playing with little balls. It's just like they they engage in play. It's a joke, but the Best thing. The outstanding scene is when they film. Have you ever heard of a broomstick bee? Oh my God, right? Does it sweep up after the other bees? No, it doesn't. It literally goes around, right, f finding bits of straw and hay, flies them back to like cover its nest. And it's like a witch. It's like a wit called a witch bee or broomstick bee. And it's like Harry Potter. It's like flying along. It looks like it's flying because it's on this bit of straw. It's an incredible James, it's amazing. What the program is this? Disney Plus. It's on Dis what is it called? Secrets of the Bees. Wow. It's it's a must watch. It is a must watch because we all should care about the bees. It's really as as James has proven with his friend, Bizarre. That they are on vogue. Yeah. They need to be. Yeah. They need to be. It's great. Anyway, that's what I've been watching. To be or not to be. And the answer is very much to be. Yeah. Wait a day. Let me ask you this question. Oh yes. It's a multiple choice. Okay. Right. Um Used since eighteen seventy six. Which trademarked logo. is described in the James Joyce novel Ulysses and depicted in works by Manet and Picasso. Is it I? Bass ale. Is it B the famous grouse? Is it C? Coca-Cola? Or is it D Stella Artois? Stella Artois. You think Stellar Artoire? I don't know how long Stella Artile's been around. I'm gonna say the famous grouse. Well you because it's in the night, it's in the name. It says the famous grounds. Well you'd both be wrong. Right. That's ale. Which I've literally never heard of. I'll tell you and why have I asked you this question? What is that question? Very hard design. No. Well it's partly for fun, but where does it come from? That was the winning one million pound question. Wh which the only the seventh ever winner of Who Wants to Be be a Millionaire got right. Earlier this week in an extraordinary performance on that show. He's the first winner. Did they find a friend and was it James Joyce? Um he didn't find a friend. He was he answered that question on his own. I think he got I think he used a fifty fifty. He still had lifeline uh right at the end. He still has the Jeremy Clarkson lifeline as well. What's the Jeremy Clarkson lifeline? You had to call Jeremy Clarkson. You know you you ask Jeremy's the host now. Yeah has been for like two years, yeah. And um you can ask him. That's one of the life. If you think he know he'll know. Hang on. Yeah he he has to he says he he just says what he thinks. If he if he knows the answer, he'll go a hundred percent that it is this. If he's not sure he'll go, I think it might be that, but I might be wrong. He just gives his honest Response. So this guy preferred to guess than last Jeremy, pretty much. But the most amazing bit was I was I watched this live on TV. And then the fi the fifth question he didn't know the answer to, and this is the fifth question, he didn't know the answer to this, get ready. Okay. What is mixed with vinegar, mustard and oil? to make a basic mayonnaise. No. And the options were plain flour, salted butter, egg yolk, and double cream. And he didn't know and he went to the audience. Yeah. Of course it's mayonnaise. He nearly Screwed up the fourth the the fifth question. If you just know you just know what I mean. I just want to say that Who Who Wants to Be a Millionaire is one of those shows that is can be so brilliant when it w in in a situation like this when you're And I knew that because they send out a pressure, so ITV it's in a difficult situation 'cause it's think of that spoilers, right? So they want people to know that they're gonna win the money. That they're gonna someone's gonna win the money, this series. So they send out a pressure saying t I think the two people get to the final question. Right, but and one of them actually wins. And so I was like oh I know that it's gonna be good either way. And in the end it put to be he w actually won. But it's it it it's extraordinary how rare how difficult it is. Seven only seven winners in the history of the show, which just goes back like twenty, thirty years or whatever. Oh my god, when I was at university I used to be totally addicted to the Who Wants to be a Millionaire pub. You know, like have you seen the ones in the pub that you can do the movement Oh my God, so many pounds lost there. Yeah. Millionaire is one of those shows where I often say this I just forget the fact that I m always want to watch it 'cause it is uh it is a great it's such a brilliant format. Even with Jeremy Clarkson, um who I'm not a big fan of. But um yeah, it's just one of those ones I take for granted that I watch it when it's on pretty much without even mentioning it on this very show. It's just so it's so good. Everyone used to watch Who Wants to be in the net, though absolutely everyone used to do it. Yeah, in the Chris Tarant. Yeah. Yeah. And this is a brilliant quiz, of course, the uh drama about the scandal of the of the guy who won that. It was a brilliant show, as well. The Coughing Colonel. The Coughing Colonel. Director by Steven F While he was aware the man the legend while he was awake. Anyway, the other thing is, and you're gonna like this it just as much. Oh God, uh have you been aware you must have been stuffed. You've just about to call me Kay, weren't you? No, not at all, Kev. I just had a I just had a curse sound in my mouth. Um You must be aware of the um I'm a celebrity situation of this series. Am I aware. Okay, so I just before we came in read that they're taking this action. Idiots. Yeah, yeah. Let's just hypothetically assume that someone listening to have no idea. I'm going to explain. I'm just checking that Steph's. I'm aware. I'm aw I can contribute to the side. So basically this series of I'm a subject which finished last week. I was recording this now on Wednesday, finished on Sunday, Saturday or Sunday. And um they had a it was pre recorded. So it was set in South Africa and it was a um they invited previous big stars who'd already done the show. Um in vario. Like an all star version of the format. But all pre-recorded. So whereas usually um in the in the normal series, which comes out in November of the year, it's live in the sense that every day you catch up with what they've been doing and the and text link's are live. It's all live and happening at the time. Whereas this one was pre-recorded m like months ago. So everyone involved. unfortunately for IT V, has had time to reflect upon what happened. And of course They will some of them like guy called Jimmy Bullard who's an ex footballer and um David Hay who's an who's a boxer probably is he still a boxer is he ex boxer they are complaining about their coverage of them on the show being unfair and unfairly edited. Anyway There was a huge big bust up between the eventual winner Um Adam Thomas and um Jimmy Bollar, this this ex footballer. And Adam Thomas, you know, went off on one for various reasons. Don't want to go into the whole thing, but called him you know, C words were used. It got very heated and very But what what got even more heated was the live final So uh pre recorded the whole show, James, but the final was live and viewers voted for their winner during that live final on Saturday night hosted by Anton Deck on IT V, but it all kicked off. And um Jimmy Bullard accused Anton Deck had to deal with the accusations that ITV were being unfair to him and he was furious about it. And David Hay joined in and he was furious about it. And David Hay wasn't even there when this whole incident happened and Anton Deck are like, you know, calm down, calm down. Gemma Collins walked out, um, Sonita walked out. Everyone was very upset. Everyone was upset. It was it was extraordinary television. And I know you obviously this this is not, you know, core pilot TV values. And I've I by the way I've had five or six people message me saying because I met I miss you saying. during during the show saying I uh we're on their metal, you know, this is extraordinary T V and loads of people saying you've got to talk about all the public TV podcasts so I think with the the strange thing about this is for People who don't subscribe to any kind of uh reality TV or anything like this is still exciting, isn't it? So like I know people in the office like, Oh my God, it's making me really wish I'd watch this series. Well the irony is, right, is the I'm having this conversation with Carolina Heat, who we were uh our our boss in any ways. And and we were saying, you know, 'cause it was pre recorded, we thought the the excitement level would be much less because it feels like oh this is old news. It's but actually it's completely the reverse. Yeah and it's turned into an extraordinary situation which kind of has ramifications really for the way for the show, for this format, for and to every and not and to the uh uh When they left after the the end of the live show, there were shots in the papers of of Jimmy confronting and in the corridor somewhere at ITV. And it got uh completely out of hand. And now they're th saying they're gonna launch a law lawsuit complaining about the everything. It's all Gone bulkers. And can I just one more thing is, the day before the Saturday Night Live Show, on this morning, hosted by Domin Allison, they had a a a couple of the get of the finalists like Craig Charles was on Craig Charles was welding up and started crying and that Alison had to comfort him and hug him. Right. I know James this isn't your bag, but it does have huge ramifications. It is so really, really astonishing television. As someone who, let's be honest, does not care. Yeah. But What are the ramifications of this? What will be the fallout of this? What will be the takeaways? What will this change? I tell you what a a big thing will be. It uh well it's the editing, isn't it? It'll be w it'll be people will be saying about every reality show now, well, that it's it's all in editing. They just do what they want, they decide who they want to win, they edit that person down, so they that's what people will be saying. Well, anyway. They do say that anyway, but they'll be saying it more. And then also there is the bullying aspect. So the big lot Big kind of crux of this is the bullying thing. And it will we will it will come back to what are we doing duty of care. Yeah, duty of care. Which is happen we've happened it's happened a few times with a couple of reality shows, Love Island and things like that I think. Yeah, it's a constant um fine lines. These shows are constantly treading the line between making good TV and drama and conflict of course is you know, I'm a celebrity when everyone's in liking each other, which does happen a lot of times in the series, you know, everyone gets on really well and it's all fine. There's no conflict at all. But it's a bit boring. Whereas the ones the seasons where there are one or two m moments where they're really pro in proper conflict and it's all getting a bit out of hand. And the producers have to sometimes even step in and all of the um people taking part deserve a duty care. I think when it's celebrities taking part, I th I I I often feel like oh there's an assumption I'm not saying from I T V or the people whose job it is to look after them to make sure they're psychologically okay. But you th I I think sometimes maybe there's more of a duty of care for non celebrities for normies or muggles, whatever you want to call. Pulks. And they think oh the the celebrity's gonna be as But I think this what this so my answer to your question is I think they're gonna have to really step up the duty of care and really look at kind of warn the people taking part in the next series what the rules are about bullying and it's alleged bullying, et cetera. Um I just think they're gonna have to be more on it. Perhaps than they were in this situation. Boydy, anything else? No, excellent. Move on. No, tell us boy. No, no. I've almost finished. I just want to mention Hacks again, which is going from strength to strength. He's absolutely brilliant. And Is is is a sh extended joke here's a great question for you. If I describe an extended joke in which the last uh episode of Hacks that I watched last Friday b is built around Is that a spoiler or is it no please don't all one The two main women in it. No, no, no, I'm not. They have they have new boyfriends. They get new love love um love attention. Love romance interests. Romantic attention. And it's hilarious. The way it plays out for both of them is absolutely hilarious. It's just my love for hacks ongoing. There you go, James. Take it away. No, no, no, we're out of time. No time to hear what I've been watching. Um Well I'll keep it brief anyway, because we've talked about a little bit. I watched Order Man on Fire, would you know? Could we review it on Final Plus? Yes, you did. So I watched Order Man on Fire. I've got two more to go. Oh, okay. Upcoming spoiler chat, Steph. Yeah. Well you spectrum. Um what else have I watched? I have been watching The Boys, which I'm enjoying enormously. I think I've seen the first four now. which are the ones I'm watching it as it airs, but you're still enjoying the boys a great deal. It's just something very fun and funny and pure about it, which is good. I went onto the Apple Screener site to see if they had uh finally released the last two episodes of Fraw Mankind. They had not. Just on the off chance, I scan down to see, inspired by the trailer, whether or not there was one or two episodes of Silo on there. This is the Rebecca Ferguson thing. This is the Rebecca Ferguson one. Have you watched Silo Steps? No, I haven't, but you said I'd like it. It I genuinely it is extremely post apocalyptic. Yes, but J says it's still I would I think you'd still like it. I think you should give it a go. It wasn't quite starting again. No, it's not. It's uh it I mean it is and it isn't, but I think you'll be fine with it. I do. Okay, but it's really really good. Like it's one of my favourite shows on television. Give me the premise. People out there who don't know, just just It's set in the future. After an unknown situation. 10,000 people alive and they all live in a silo, which is a mildly shelter. It do you know what it has a lot in common with that. In fact, in fact, uh, you know, I'm not saying that I'm not in any way uh accusing anyone of plagiarism, but I would say that paradise feels like it draws from the same well as Silo is based on the books by Hugh Howie. He wrote three uh books. There was Wolves Silo at And Dust, I think is the third one. And he was very famous, Hugh Howie, because it was he was a self published author. He was one of the big uh one of the early success stories in self publishing because his will went went massive. He's very famous. Yes. Ver very famous Gemic the most famous. Anyway, anyway There's a a kind of a murder mystery at the heart of this story, but it is set in this silo. Okay, which has a very has that murder mystery not been solved yet? Is it still I'm not spoiling silo for you. It does get resolved, but more things happen. But the point is obviously the silo is very, very deep, and there's almost like a class based system where the people at the top of the silo are like the upper classes and the people at the bottom of the silo are looked down upon like the people in mechanical. But it's uh yeah, it's a it's a very interesting thing. I mean not in the same way, like they're not wandering around with zombie ravaged. Apocalypse. Except they're in a silo. Yeah, but what are they looking at in in that you know in that phase of the thing that's the same into nothingness Well no there's a screen there's a screen famously there is a screen that looks outside so they can look at the outside and the outside is a bit of a apocalyptic. I mean your I'm just saying your rules for this genre that you famously hate are all in silos. Wouldn't it be interesting if I did love Silo. You do. I hope you've got an open mind and but I think it could be the end of your enmity towards this particular genre. I've been I've been inching closer to the end to the end of my uh you know I think this is this is like the gold standard of post apocalyptic stuff for me, alongside you know, obviously the last of us. But why is Silo most famous of all though? Do you know why it's most famous? No, no close. No. It's it's the it was the time when James met Tim Cook on set. I was in the silo. I had lunch. Otto Lenge, it was very nice. He in the cafeteria. Whether or not we did have an interview with Jack Thorne or not on this podcast. We did have Tim Cook. We had Tim Cook on the on the podcast. Literally the man in charge of the richest company in the world. And then months some will say months later he resigned and left. Are the two related causation or correlation? It's hard to say. What did James say to him? Yeah. Off the record when he wasn't recording it. That led Tim Cook to leave this job. Yeah. I'll never tell it's an open mystery. No, I don't think you are. Well yeah. Okay, well I might be Steph Silo champion. Steph Silo. You can add that to the pit and everything else you've got watch. Your bank holiday's gonna be really busy. It's gonna be very busy. I've still gotta finish the uh book the amendments. Oh my god, can you watch Paradise before like one of us dies? Yeah, it'll have to be uh from Tuesday on Tuesday. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, me and Steph will do one for that. You won't be. I mean you're doing anyway. I mean let's let's not pretend. Anyway, anyway, it is time and I'm not even sure we have time because we've already droned on quite a long time, but we will do a listener question. And the listener question is this is more of a listener discussion more than a question. So this one comes from Rob and Rob says, While watching the latest season of Monarch Legacy of Monsters, which is better than season one, but still not exactly must see TV, a seed was planted in the back of my mind, a seed that sprouted later that evening. when I was continuing my rewatch of Babylon 5. Back in the 90s and naughty's, when the serialized TV storytelling really started to become popular, there was a healthy balance of serialization and danger of the week, procedural elements. Each episode would have its self-contained story, while the bigger plot was woven into the broader tapestry of the show. That seems to be a skill that's been lost in modern TV, and the result is often narrative inertia for episodes, occasionally seasons at a time. Whole runs of episodes where nothing much happens with characters and storylines placed in holding pattern while episode counts are filled up. James quite often mentions the 13 episode Netflix Marvel shows as dragging. And shows like the aforementioned Monarch, The Handmaid's Tale, and Star Trek Picard all suffered from this Prestige bloat. Good phrase. Here we go. While there are notable exceptions for All Mankind, The Morning Show, they tend to be shows with a large ensemble cast of characters and multiple storylines, so there's usually Ford momentum in each episode. So my question is, should these TV shows go back to having plot of the week elements alongside the wider narrative as a way of making each individual episode a satisfying experience. That's such a multi layered question. But But you've got things like um Game of Thrones. Every episode I mean that that was had an overarching narrative and then there was every episode something was revealed. But then that almost picks up the point here because there are so many characters and so many plot lines. There's always something happening in every episode. Um but like it's interesting because But I always think like UK TV always had a serialized thread going through it. Going back since like feels like the dawn of time. We've always had a thing for serialized TV. I remember growing up, you know, whether it be Doctor Who was serialized, you know, they still had an element of of the Wit Side, but they all had mini arcs. Whereas I think in America, because of the network T V model, certainly if you go back before the I don't know, before the eighties I would say. there was an element of what I would kind of call episodic reset, where by every episode of television stuff would happen and then it'd be like, right, everyone back to starting positions for the next episode with like no hugs, no learning, right? Like nothing. Like there was no there was no progression of storyline. And I think that was largely due to the fact that everything was syndicated, everything was rerun, and you need stuff to be self-contained. And I felt like I felt like serialized TV is higher risk. than episodic TV, fundamentally. Because people can jump in and jump out. Yeah, to go back to my the world's greatest TV show, Murder She Row, you can watch an individual Murder She Row at any time and not have to do know what I mean? Like everyone's the nation of like episodic procedurals, yeah. But I would say what actually happens is that um a show it becomes very successful. And um highly regarded and is a is a hit critically and and in terms of ratings. And then from a at a certain point in the creation of that show when it becomes a long running thing and and it could be Whether whether it's syndicated or not, but syndicated d doesn't affect it at all. Where the creators then build in uh story arcs and character arcs and ongoing um serialized storylines because it's the natural progression of a show. So I'm thinking of um I'm trying to think of a different one to the one I always bring up, but I'm gonna bring up anyway, I don't give a shit anymore. Seinfeld, right? Seinfeld is a classic sitcom. And Mark no learned. What you're referring to is that that was coined for Seinfeld. But of course Seinfeld had some amazing would did start to have long story arcs around seasons four, five, maybe out of its nine series run. All of them did. But that's you are talking that era, because this is all post seventies stuff, isn't it? We're into the eighties. In the ninety nineties and nine. But I think eighties and nineties, I I mean, certainly looking back at these shows, it feels like That sort of reset. sort of episodic stuff stopped and you started to get hints of serialized storytelling into episodic telling mash which was like the biggest show on T V in the seventies. And that had serialized elements to it. And it w that that had the model. It was a thirty minute sitcom. In which as you said, it reset every week there was a different storyline, but it also had uh running alongside these. There's a love interesting. Stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That helps you. But I think it w but it did I think you've house. Yeah. I mean when when House became House started out as a fairly um n I I don't use the w I was gonna say bog standard, it was brilliant from the start, but a fairly standard form of a case of the week. And then it didn't take long. Once it became a m and House was the biggest show on TV in the world at one point. It it it really embraced the serializations element to it and it became Cuddy and him and the on on a on on off w you know kind of thing and Wilson. So I think you can't uh for me the correlation is when something becomes so successful And that then the creators have the confidence and they know that consumers of the show will like it if you build in serialised elements. The characters become so beloved that they they won't you need bit. But also how much of that is the show's progression and how much is that that during the run off house TV fundamentally changed? And the shift from procedural episodic television more towards serialized 'cause as you know, as the streamers became more prevalent. I mean we're we're in the naughty at this point, right? So you know, as you as you move on, I think that that thrust towards serialized television became much more pronounced. But even if you go back to the eighties and nineties, and I do wonder how much For example, the proliferation of VCRs changed this. Because if you go back prior to the 1980s. Well no, no, I'm serious. Like if you go back prior to the nineteen eighties, if you miss an episode of television, you were basically just fucked, right? Like if it was serialized storytelling and you missed it, you'd like, what the hell happened? I have no idea. Whereas When you had VCRs, you could go out of an evening, I am told, I never did, but you could go out of an evening. And you could set the video to record it. So you didn't need to miss an episode. So you still had that thing where you could keep up with what happened. I don't know if that was directly responsible, but I imagine it kind of factored into these things. But then as you get into the streaming era, the peak TV era, I think that thrust for very cinematic, sort of slower. Heist. Like almost film like storytelling starting to become the ascendant. I think we we've we've said this a few times on here. I think We often refer to kind of some of the, you know, like the the some of the things that are on Apple just like long films. 'Cause that's what they feel like. And I and I suppose that very, very long films. But they they do feel like that. It's more specific. And actually instead of it being kind of a three out structure, what you've got is like I don't know, let's say it's an eight part show. It is one continuous narrative, but it uses the episodes to form a kind of dramatic framework of it. So you have the ups and downs and narrative ups and downs. But interestingly, I think, you know, we've almost moved now to a stage, certainly with Netflix, where it's not just serialized, it's almost like bingeworthy. Where I mean Man on fire is a great example. But Netflix's whole thing is these shows are designed not to be seen week by week in a serialized way, but to be watched all in one go. So it really is. An eight hour film because that's how it's written and contained. It's the perfect example and that's and I think that uh and and it's uh it feels like it's designed to be that propulsive. So you do want to keep watching, keep watching, keep watching it watching it. Like a very long film if you've got that amount of time. But yeah, it's a that's a really interesting point. I'm trying to think of something now. that we watch that does have both those elements to it. And I can't really think you still you get I think nowadays you don't really get episodic procedurals that don't have some kind of serialized aspect to the rookie the rookie is a really good example. But look at but even if you go back to the nineties, you look at stuff like the X Files, like that had a mythology that spread throughout it. Yes, it was creature of the week, but also you'd get the conspiracy episodes. And even when you weren't on a conspiracy episode, there was a sense of progress. It was a sense you were going from somewhere. And Star Trek, Next Generation, feels much more standalone in the same way as the original series, but Voyager, by the nature of their journey through the Delta Quadrant, felt like progress. And Deep Space Nine was very serious. I was about to say Deep Space Nine, and that I think that's one of the reasons that I really love Deep Space Nine. Yeah. Mm, interesting. But even I suppose with comedies, actually, I'm thinking about Brooklyn nine nine, like that has an overarching narrative, all the character you know, you have that, but still in every every episode there is you know Well friends does as well. That has a very clear through as the relationships change and you know who's dating who like there's a there is a progression. I don't think it you know, they're not standalone episodes entirely. It's all down to the VCR. Yeah, so it I think I think it shifts quite a lot, but it's I feel like we've come a long way from that. you know, A plot, B plot, C plot structure in shows. But again, to me, that feels like network television where you needed A, B, and C plots because you needed to do a certain amount of padding because you were doing twenty two episodes a season. So you had an awful lot of filler in there, filler episodes and then filler content in each episode because you had to pad them out for runtime. Whereas nowadays, and I think what this person's referring to, when they say, you know, stuff feels inert, it doesn't feel like stuff's moving on. I would argue in that case it's less to do with the fact that we need more creature of the week and more to do with the fact that if you don't need twelve episodes, don't have twelve episodes. If you don't need eight, don't have eight. Because we talk about this a lot where someone's adapted a film, it's like, oh yeah, they're gonna stretch it out over 10 hours. You're like, Fucking hell, there isn't story for that. But I think we're confusing two things two things here, if I may say. By all means. Because what you you're talking we're talking about limited series here. Yeah. Right? The whole man on fire. I mean if it's a bit hemisphere. I don't think that's limited series. Okay. But it's a story, right? Told across the season. Yeah. I mean it could be a limited series. It could be. It could it it depends on its success, won't it, really? This is kinda my point. It's a limited series. I mean they were. The night manager was never meant to be a limited series. It was never meant to be an ongoing serial. But it was a limited series, but it's so successful that w you ha anything that successful has to become a serial. So it's like but what I think the original question was touching on was all all the complaints I ever have about overlong um series are almost always pertaining to limited series. And I that's for me is the phenomenon. The phenomenon that's happening right now in the streamer in the in the streaming world we live in is too long a sh a a run for a limited series. That's my issue. And and and it's like you know, it's not the pit, it's 15 episodes per season and it works brilliantly because each hour, as we all know, is playing out an hour of the shift. And it's fantastic. That is the right length for that show. You know, uh a a a ten hour what is that the w one we did recently. Minute wife. A miniature wife. Ten episodes of that is insanity. Yeah. Agreed. And that's why that's I think what the question is is alluding to it. Yeah, bloat. But I think the bloat I don't think it's I I I think it's all about limited to it's being too long. When there's four or five episodes of it, you're like, oh, that makes sense. And often it ends up being the perfect length. When it gets as soon as you're getting eight, nine, ten, I I start to question it. Sometimes it's fine, sometimes but that's that's the issue for me. So I think the serial versus, you know, c story of the week type thing isn't so much the issue. It's it's more it's particularly it's 'cause story of the week shows up it's built in intrinsically to the whole format that they can go to the twenty two, twenty three episodes series thing. Um but it's a limited series where it really hits hits hard when it's over long. That's my 'cause it has a very definite start point and end point. And you can judge very clearly whether they're taking too much time to get to the empowerment. Do you remember we did the Burbs a few weeks back and we were like, How are they going? 'Cause the episodes were like forty five minutes and we were like How are they gonna do this? I think it was eight or ten episodes and we're like what exactly 'cause obviously it's a fit based on the And the burbs the burbs has already been recommissioned. Yes, I know. But it doesn't mean it's not it is still within its own um format. Uh effectively a limited series. That's just been commissioned for a second. Having more than one season of a limited series does not negate the fact that the original series was limited. I don't think it's always limited, though. I do think because we talk about deliberate pacing and ponderousness, and it's not always limited series. Sometimes there's just a lack of Urgency storytelling. Well, of course that can happen. But but I think the phenomenon I'm using a phrase that Will Self used when I was on TV with him once. That's a niche joke. Yeah. The phenomenon is particularly Pertaining to limited series is my theory. Okay. We can't stay, we can't we can't stay. We can't stay. We can't stay. We've got leave. We're done. We can't say limited anymore this podcast. No, we must limit this particular question. Sorry, Rob. We've run out of road. Really, this conversation should have been eight episodes. We've only allocated six to it. So we're we cannot complete talking about this. Uh if you would like your question honestly beaten to death like that on this podcast, please do send them in. There was meat to that. There was meat, a lot of meat. The address is postbag at pilottvpod.com. Someone actually last week said that that wasn't working for them. If for any reason that doesn't work though, you can still do pilot TV at EmpireMagazine.com, but Postbag at pilottvpod.com should This one should. Work. Should we have our guest? Please God. You may have heard him on this podcast before. You might have heard him on this podcast before during his many previous interviews that Boyd's done with him apparently on the sly. But if you haven't, this is Jack Thorne. Who is responsible for Check's notes, half the shows on television. He is an extraordinarily prolific writer, and he brought us the likes of Adolescence, The Hack, Toxic Town, His Not Materials, Help. The virtues and of course most recently Lord of the Flies on BBC One. Uh and Jack very kindly zoomed me from his study the other day so that we could chat about everything from his writing process to the state of the world at the moment. Uh which I enjoyed enormously. So here is me talking with Jack Thorne. Well chat thanks very much for agreeing to do this. It's much appreciated. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm th I'm thrilled to be on pilot. It's very cool. It's lovely to have you here. If for no other reason that. We we have a running sort of joke on the on the podcast that if a great TV show comes along You could put money on it being written by either you or Steven Knight and probably make money off that bet. Because you are prolific in a way that I am in absolute awe of and I don't know how you do it. So I'm going to ask you now, how do you manage to output so much stuff? I really don't I mean if you did the hours I write. Well because I do little shows, you see. And Steve Knight does big shows that last forever. And so I just do some little shows, but I do them quite regularly. And so people think that I'm doing a lot, whereas actually I'm just doing little, little tiny bits, you know. four four hours is very different from eight and is certainly good from ten. That okay, that's fair. That is absolutely fair. But you've said before I think isn't it that you work on like you do mul work on multiple projects at once, don't you? Like you'll have multiple project spinning. I do I do two at once. And and the reason why is because um it it if if I do one, then I stop sleeping. So I do the second one. basically reassure me that I'm okay as a writer. So when I get stuck. Rather than just sort of sitting there in agony, I kinda go, Okay, this isn't gonna move. I want to go back to that other one. And sometimes it can be quite weird. I did I did a show about historic sex crimes called National Treasure at the same time as I was writing Harry Potter and the Cursed Child. So Yeah, like you got you got that's a very weird combination. It it happened to star um Hagrid and Molly Weasley, but but they weren't necessarily in the same universe. That's a that's quite the mental pivot, isn't it? Does it help if they're radically different things? So you can almost access different parts of your brain. Sometimes and sometimes it's quite good when they overlap with with um Lord of the Flies. You know, I was doing adolescence at the same time. Th the there there was something very interesting about the way that the two fed each other. I think. It's really interesting you say that about sort of like almost like it's almost like a self esteem thing, like you're reassuring yourself that you can do this, 'cause someone as accomplished of you who have I assume you have a shelf somewhere, possibly in your bathroom, with your collection of was it five BAFTAs you have at this point? Show me the validation. You should like to line them up in front of you. I saw Jonathan Ross at uh um he presented the RTS awards one year and he said, You think you want to win one of these, and then you're sat in your study and they're winking down at you and uh and you all you can see is is self hatred. So yes, it's very, very nice. I like it. And I I do like they're in my telirroom because my telirroom is the room that no one goes in other than me, my wife, my child. Um and um they do mean a lot to me because I need the validation. Um uh but but yes, uh It it doesn't make the next blank page any easier, as any writer will tell you. I I asked the writer, uh an older writer once when I was starting out, I said, When do you feel like you belong? And he turned to me and he went, You never feel like you belong. And uh and that those words have really stuck with me, and and they are true. I I'm with you. I must admit there's a quote by Dorothy Parker. Obviously there's a quote by Dorothy Parker on basically everything, but the the famous one, of course, I hate writing, I love having written. And that has always rung incredibly true to me, because I find writing an incredibly excruciating, miserable process, but I like the end result. And I wonder if you felt similarly or whether you actually quite enjoy the act of doing it. So I'll take your Dorothy Parker and I'll raise it to Josh Whiticum. And what Josh Whiticum said once uh on a on a podcast that I was listening to was I wish I could make something. finish it and be really proud of it. And then no one sees. So there's something that I I think Dorothy Parker felt very proud of the things that she produced. And there is something about, you know, exposing it to the public glare, which means that that pride inevitably diminishes slightly because you don't remember the good reviews, you only remember the bad reviews. So yes, there is part of me. I I actually really like the process of writing and don't really like the process of having it on TV. So uh if if I could just keep writing, but then people would say then shut up and just write something in your shed and stop bothering us. So you know like you know that there is also part of me that wants the exposure. So I don't you know it's uh we we we are a uh hypocrisy uh and a conundrum right uh as as human beings. But it's interesting that you're able to internally validate because I I know a lot of writers and I've become myself among them like When I've written something, it gets to point where I cannot tell if it's good or not. And I need someone to tell me it's good or in my head it's terrible. But are you able to literally look at it and be like, yes, this is good. I know it's good. No, when w when did I give that impression? I no, that's not that's not how it works for me at all. Uh you know, and and people can tell me it's good and then I can still believe it's terrible. Uh you know, the the the no, I'm uh no, I'm not uh I I don't, you know. But I do like that. Um Uh I uh my father in law came to stay once and I was working in High Basington Central Library at the time. And so every night I'd get in about Seven o'clock. And he'd say, Good day, Jack. And uh after the third one I had to tell him I have one good day in fourteen. You know, and uh but I do have one good day in fourteen. And that's what I live for. And I don't know whether it's validate uh you know, I don't know whether I feel validated by the writing at that point. I just that I've disappeared and gone somewhere else. And it doesn't necessarily mean that the work is better that day than any other day. It just that I feel like something of me has been dolloped onto the page and and and those are the moments that I live for, more than having it on T V, more than awards winking down at me. It it's that it's that moment of just going, Oh, I disappeared today. Like it's it feels like you you've tapped into a frequency and something has just fallen into place and it just works. Or doesn't work. It doesn't you know, the the that like I say, you can read it the next day and go, Oh no, I was completely wrong. But that that feeling, that feeling is is enough for me. Yeah. It's it's interesting also, because I know that you've said before that you're obsessed with ratings and looking at those things and seeing the reviews. Cause they always tell you, like, never read the reviews. Like never, like that that that's where madness lies. But do you still find yourself doing that? Do you wish you wouldn't do it? Like how do you balance that. Yeah. I mean it uh yes, I do find myself doing it and um and it is You know, it it is so fascinating what hits and what doesn't. I'm really happy at the moment because the other Bennett girl Just has proved a huge hit and it's beautifully written and uh and that's that's lovely. And then a show like Waiting for the Out. doesn't get the ratings and you're like, but that was wonderful. Wasn't it? You you guys are missing so much by not having watch that. So it it it's not like I I look at them and go, Oh, that's success, that's not. I I look at them and just go, What are people consuming what w where is where is the line of consumption right now? And and you know what? You can never draw too many lessons from it because what works at one moment doesn't work at another, you know, that that you'd have thought that people are uh bored of costume drama and then suddenly rivals comes along and everything else out the water. So, you know, there are no rules, but at the same time I'm really interested to look for rules. Yeah. I think it was was it Steve Jobs who said, don't ask people what they want, tell them what they want. Because people don't know what they want until they're presented by it. So I sometimes think the trends in what isn't isn't working is there's no indicator of anything. Yeah, Steve Jobs wasn't working for commissioners, though was he. I mean, yes, that is absolutely true. You your output, I would say, is is it's also very diverse in the kind of things you do. Like there's a big difference between the virtues, here's dark materials, the fades, you know, this is England. Like there's a like D it is it depending on your mood, what you fancy doing, because it feels to me that these things from a from a viewer's point of view, they fulfill very different functions. Like you've got social realism, you've got pure escapism. You know, and like does it depend on where your head is at in any given time? Like what do you prefer writing? No, I I'm I'm just chaos and uh and all those projects you listed were offered to me. I didn't originate any of them. Uh, and so it's just that thing of just going s you know, being presented with a bag of sweets and going, Yes, please, and then eating the sweets. Uh so there is no there's no process, there's no um uh sort of feeling behind it. The one thing I would say is that I think social realism fantasy belong in the same in the same bracket because I think that they are Talking about ideas of society. And I think that there's something very interesting about both because they're always they're always looking at A problem and uh and so those are the things that I'm drawn to problems and trying to think about how to pose a question about those problems. Because you've talked about TV before as being like an empathy box, like a way of almost tuning the public consciousness into an issue or a demographic or something. that they might not otherwise care about. So it's it's like a powerful tool and I I kinda get the impression that you don't take that lightly, that you're like you're very aware that it can can be wielded with great power. Yeah, I don't take it lightly, but at the same time I don't I don't feel you know, w most days I don't feel I've got anything to add to that empathy box. So you know, it's not like I sit there and go, oh, what wise thoughts should I impart today? It's more just kind of like I'm really worried about something, someone's giving me the opportunity to write about it. I'm gonna I'm gonna think about it and wrestle with it and then try and Put something down and then hope. that that it might add to the debate in some small way. You know, that that I think there's something There's something stupidly grand about writing. There, you know, and and it's so interesting because writers as a breed Uh generally quite timid human beings. And then we sit in our rooms and we go, Oh, this is what they're like. You know what I mean? Like, you know, or this will make people laugh, or this will make people think. And the truth is I'm slightly ashamed of that aspect of my personality, and yet I'm still doing this job, but I love this job. Lord life view is is uh You know, it's a passion project. As you said, some of those were commissions. This is very much not a commission. This is something you've been wanting to do for decades, right? You've kept having back to does is that does that make it a very different beast? No pun intended. Uh you know, when you approach it, if it is something that you've essentially brought to life. I don't know. You know, it's a it's a it's a weird thing because my relationship with that book has changed so Hugely through the years. When when I read it as a kid. The thing that drew me in. was Reading it and going. I'm Simon and I was reading it. two in the morning with insomnia, 'cause I had insomnia that it's quite bad insomnia at that age. And I was like eleven. years old and I was just sort of going, Golding understands me because I felt like Simon. And then Golding killed me. Uh I remember the moment when I just kind of because Simon's death is so confusingly written, you're not actually sure he is dead. And then he talks about his body drifting out to sea. And I I I literally remember the visceral feeling of that moment, the the sort of heart being pulled out of out of me. And then I read it in my twenties and I felt a bit more like Ralph and a little less like Simon. And then I read it in my thirties and felt a little bit like Jack. And and so Uh yes, my love for the book. um hopefully does translate in into the telling that we did of the book. But at the same time. Um Uh that that that that Passion I'm not sure whether it I I don't know whether it helps or not. Um uh I just I just am so proud to have been part of it and so proud to tell it And what I think it's is the most suitable medium for Lord of the Flies. There's something about the chapter structure of TV, the vocabulary of TV, which I think lends itself to the book. And And and you know, and I've read A lot of different people expressing a lot of different opinions about what we made. And and so now I'm in a slightly confused state about it, but I am hugely proud of the show. Yeah, I mean it's it it's it's a really interesting refocus for me on this because I read this book. I did it for GCSE, so it was a long time ago. And I remember it in the same way that I think society remembers it. Like it feels like it's um an artifact of cynicism. Like it's like it's like it's a testament to the inherent problematic part of human nature. But the TV show doesn't necessarily feel that way. There feels like there's a hint of almost optimism, a hint of empathy to it because we feel like 'cause Jack isn't a caricature here. We feel like we understand what makes him do what he does. Like he's not just a villainous character. And I wondered like Did you see Lord of the Flies a book when you read it as something that's inherently quite bleak and quite pessimistic and look into the the nastier parts of human nature, or did you always see that that kind of optimism in it? I think as a kid I hated Jet. And I but I hated Jack because I I I was reading From the perspective of the playground. And I was reading it from the perspective of kids that weren't so kind to me. Who I wanted to dismiss. I wanted to dismiss them and I wanted to say that they were you know, caricatures. They were they were just um kids that that decided how they could do me damage each day. You know, that that's that's that was all they felt. And then And then I don't think it was till I read it. In my thirties. That I really started to understand. The tenderness with which scolding um was writing Jack, and I don't think Golding sees Roger as redeemable. I think Golding Um I I heard a story about a a schoolmaster telling Golding that um that he cast his son as Roger and Golding going, Why on earth would you do that? Um Uh so I I I don't but I do think he does see Jack as redeemable. I do think he does see parts of Jack that and it and it's such a beautiful book because it's not about one decision. It's about a series of little decisions where if Jack and Ralph just Just change their direction. a matter of tiny degrees that their story could be so different. And and and and I Uh so yes. Um I I I I wanted to capture the What I saw as the truth of what Golding was writing about and it and it was about Tiny, tiny little things going wrong. And it was about a group of boys in the shadow of World War Two. When you read it as a kid, did did you have someone that you thought you were? I think at the time Ralph was my avatar. I mean, I think it's I wanted to think I was Ralph, as you often do with these things. He's the one I I kind of aspired to be. I mean, was I a bit more piggy? I don't know. I'm gonna leave that for other people to decide. Because Piggy Piggy for me was an interesting character because well Ralph is the kind of you know the protagonist for want of a better word. Piggy feels to me like he is he's the moral center. Like and I remember that I watched the you know the I don't remember which film was it, the 60s version of it where the giant rock just this slab rock just flattens him. Yeah, that's ninety that's nineteen ninety version. Oh, it's the ninety version, yeah, because I've seen it I've s I think I saw all of them before my GTV. I was like, there's something so tragic about the kind of the complete evisceration of the sort of like personification of morality in the story. And I found that was so bleak. I really struggled with that. I found I found the book really depressing. I remember that. But isn't it interesting that you felt like Ralph, right? And and as a kid, you felt safe if you were Ralph. And yet the first thing, almost the first thing Ralph does in the story is reveal Pickman. Isn't that fascinating that Gold does that, right? You know, that so Gold isn't doing this none of these characters easy. None of these characters are easy. They're all deeply, deeply layered. Fundamentally they are kind of what they are, which is kind of adolescent and pre adolescent boys. And As the man here, you are basically every parent's nightmare at the moment. Like you give all parents absolute sleepless nights. This is your legacy at this point. And this is another one of those. Like it certainly makes, I think, parents of children and parents of boys in particular very concerned. And obviously there are a lot of connections here between borderflies and adolescents. But the age gap is different, isn't it? Because Jamie's that little bit older. And you feel like he's on a certain path. The kids here are younger here, more malleable, more impressionable, and they're kind of in a state of flux. But I thought what's interesting is the way adolescence deals with because Jamie's you know his his influences are his peer group and the internet, right? And those seem that they've had this big effect on him. But obviously that's not the case here. Certainly wasn't the case during World War II, ninety fifty schooling, you know, that was not quite the same as the digital age we live in now. But this speaks to, I guess, what's inherent in adolescent boys. Like something so it is on the one hand it's the nurture thing, on the one hand it's the nature thing. And I'm not sure which one's more depressing. Or is it what's inherent? Or is it that they were also subject to pressures and stories and versions of manhood that were being thrust at them because they were growing up at a time when In this extreme state the world found itself in, people were shouting hate at each other. So you know, like, you know, can you divorce any of us from the the the culture in which we are we are socialised? And I and I don't think you can. And I and I and I think Golding was writing about a really specific period in the same way that adolescents we were writing about a really specific period. It's it's it's interesting that when this kind of really happened, was it the Tongan castaways? Yeah, yeah. And they had the best time, they all got on, the fire never went out, nobody got eaten or murdered, and it was like, oh, actually maybe we are better than Carling thought we were. Yes, but maybe those boys weren't the boys that Golding was writing about. Yeah. Very much more. I d I I don't I don't know how Tombin boys are socialized. I don't know the world in which they grew up in I don't know much about their specific but but but what Golding was writing about was Post war Britain. At a time when we had puffed up our chests. But also damaged ourselves. Um and and and it's that it's that combination of of sort of pride and damage that I think these boys take to the island. Yeah, and you get obviously that bit at the end when the kind of the the takeaway from the officer is that's not very British of you. It's like you're British boys, you should be better than this. Like kind of colonialist. Spirit that he brings to it. Played by the mighty Tom Goodman. Absolutely. I read someone that you've got a tattoo of be good. From E T. Which is amazing. I love that. Like d do you embrace that kind of ambliness 'cause there's such a there's such a wholesomeness and an optimism to that whole amblin ouvre. Yes, but E T is not just the greatest coming of age story or the greatest film about uh Aliens. It is also the greatest film about divorce ever made. So there is an optimism to it, but there is also You know, that the and and that's what that era did so well. The Goonies. That is a really interesting portrait of uh a a community that is absolutely sunk. economically sunk and these kids are are trying to work out what they're gonna do with their lives because Everything that they've known. about their life so far is gonna be taken away from them because it's being destroyed. So you know that the there's there's uh it Spielberg and that and that era is so clever. Because it didn't just make things simple. quite resonant, I would've thought, with uh young people today, given everything that's happened. All of our Goon Dots are being dismantled. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I watched watching the Goonies with Elliot the other day was was wonderful. Uh he loves it. But he prefers he prefers back to the future. Which is which is uh just an optimistic optimistic view of society, 'cause it's just kind of like, you know, yeah, he he's just great. Marty's just great. Genuinely like talking about optimism, like, 'cause you had to disappear into the kind of the manosphere type world when you were researching adolescence. Is it difficult to kind of keep optimism when you're faced with that. Cause I find even from my social media feeds, you know, I'm being served clips from Louis Thruze, inside the Manosphere, you know, there's so much of this the recent uh uh revelations about the whole rape academy stuff online with the Giselle Pellico stuff like sometimes it's quite hard To kinda keep your head above water? No, totally. I mean but Algorithms are really weird. I I I sort of got sucked into a really weird algorithm the other day where I was constantly being served videos of Meryl Streep and Martin Short and their relationship. Which which actually was quite uplifting. But I've no idea. What uh what what X had taken from how I was browsing uh to to say, well, what this guy needs is Martin Short and Meryl Street, but it did keep me on there. It was bloody clever. I was kind of going, Oh, I want to know what happens next. So uh But yes, no, it is. And um uh and at the moment the books that um Elliot and I are reading every night, because my my day stops when um his day is sort of towards the end of his day and and you know, I'm always the one that puts him to bed and I'm always the one that reads to him. And we're reading Alex Ryder at the moment. Which which uh we're on book three. And there was uh a moment where Alex was being chased by a great white shark. Um managed to evade it slightly. The sharp went into a cave and then the shark was cut in two. by blades coming from up and down within the It was just like, wow, you know, like, you know, having spent the day wrestling uh, you know, the social realist demons, and then just coming back to, you know, having a shark cut into and just going, I hope my my son can sleep tonight because I'm not sure I will. I think this image is so powerful that it might just kinda stick with me. Well, I'm I'm looking forward to the next Jack Thorne project, which involves sharks being cut into and spies and adventures. This this is a great streaming pitch. You should definitely seize on that. Awesome. Awesome. Well, Jack, thanks so much. It's been great to speak to you. Thank you very much. And thank you again for having me on that really, really tough. That was Jack Forn. Let's move on to this week's news. Assuming, of course, there's any left because Steph has uh already spoiled many of the stories that we were discussing. Yes. Many, many stories. T Lasso had a trailer. Steph's told us. Yeah. We got the uh date for that, so Steph's told us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. August the first time. We have the one she she's insisting on having is go on come on. Let's discuss the while. This is a very interesting story, actually. I think this is I think I don't want to build up too much. I think this is the most interesting TV news story of the month. Wow. Okay, so We know Helena Bonacata, it's been everywhere. Helena Bonacata season four White Lotus. She's left. She's not having it. She's left. Boyd might have some insight into this. But it's been widely reported. We don't know if she's not having it or so I'm already I'm already interjecting apologies. You are. Um It's been widely reported that Laura Dern and this I think is what's being misreported if I'm if I am to believe boy. Everyone thinks that Laura Dern is Helena Bonham Carter's replacement, right? Some people are assuming. Some people are assuming. But Boyd tells me That this is not the case HBO HBO has officially confirmed that Laura Down is joining the show, but they they've is also officially confirmed she's not playing the same character that Helena Bonnham Carter was going to play. So Helena Bonham Carter, not only is she left, she's not in it at all. So she was cast as a character in The White Lotus, and she's now not gonna be in it at all. They put out a statement. This is what's unusual about this whole situation. So Helena Bonham Carter was exit exiting the cast of the White Lotus season four. And that actually probably this statement, with filming just underway on season four of the White Lotus, it had become apparent that the character which Mike White created for Helena Bonham Carter did not align once on set. H B O said a statement. Open quotes again. The role has subsequently been rethought, is being rewritten, and will be recast in the coming weeks. HBO, the producers of Mike White, are saddened that they won't get to work with her, but remain ardent fans and very much hope to work with the legendary actress on another project soon. But they are gonna recast her role then. So that's where the confusion is. Because everyone thinks that look 'cause they've now announced Laura Dern is joining, okay. Which she wasn't on the original cast list. So why wouldn't everyone assume that she is going she's been recast in that role? Yeah, it's ambiguous. It is ambiguous. It really is. She is definitely I I don't believe them. Oh okay. But there's a couple things to say about there's a couple of things to say about this. One is that I saw someone on um uh everyone's like assuming But I don't think that's the case necessarily. But the what the my point is this has happened before. This is not the first time this has happened with the White Legends. No with Mike White in the show. Okay. People I I'm pretty sure that the last series, the Jason Isaacs series, um they the that Mike White in an interview j before, during, or after it alluded to um the fact that he recasts someone in that series. And I think he does it fairly regularly. I think this is a thing that he's been known to do. So I've seen all these videos online this is outrageous. This is like you know, how can this happen? But it's it's it's a thing that he has does do every now and then. He writes a role, he may or may not have a particular have a particular act actor or actress in mind. And then when it comes to the filming of it, he s he think suddenly thinks oh actually it's not quite working out how I expect it. And it and it's awkward, obviously. Hideously awkward. And everyone assumes that I don't I don't think she's I don't see she's put out a statement yet, as far as I'm aware, which is interesting. Um but yeah, it it's it's part of his, I think, perfectionist approach to the his show to this show and I say it's happened before, I'm sure it'll happen again. But was particularly high profile 'cause she's so she's probably one of the most famous to be cast in the White Lotus, right? I mean maybe not Lemo, I'm trying to think, I'm trying to write my brains. But it's but pr she's a high profile figure, pretty much. So I don't think we knew who the person the star was who was who who was recast last time. Whereas we do now because she's such a big star. And you couldn't just and you've announced her and then suddenly she's not in the show. But then to have Laura Dern, who is also a really big actress, that those two things collided. It just seems Yes, she's worked with they've worked together before. She was the star of Enlightened, which was the brilliant series that he did before um the White Loser. So it's it's like c an an easy, obvious option for him would be to go let's have Laura Dern. Interesting, in the news coverage of it, some people are bl uh are just saying she she's replacing Ellen Point Carter, other people are saying that. People are but other people are saying no no no it's a completely different role. So it's it's somewhere in between. They've said in that statement that Helena Bonham Carter's role is being recast. So we can expect another recasting, right? If it's not her. And if there isn't, then it's her. Unless they just removed the character entirely. Which is possible. Well no, it isn't possible because you've just read it and they said they're going to recast the role in the coming weeks. Did you not hear that? They did they've rewritten the role. So they can get away with saying it's a new role because the role's bewritten. Exactly. So I think the rewritten. They should they shouldn't have said rewritten and recast. 'Cause that's what it says. I listen to you. Yeah, no fairly. It's definitely not one of technicality. I still think it's ambiguous, yeah. But anyway. Um interesting though. Very interesting. Interesting times. Can't wait to see what Helena says. I can't say. Oh, I do love her. Um okay. Uh Stranger Things, Tales from eighty four is getting uh season two renewal. You'll be pleased that's the cartoon now. Which we didn't review on this podcast. Yes, I know, but you you love you love animation, so I thought I'd do it. I do so much. Um Peter Dinklage cast in Alien Earth too. Do you care about that? That I think I'd already heard maybe last week, but we hadn't I don't think we've mentioned it on this podcast. Um but yes, Peter Dinklage and anything is a good thing. Of course. Uh and you're always here for more for more Alien Earth. Um but you're talking about uh shows though that have been renewed. Gen V, the boys Gen V has been cancelled. After its second season, which is a shame 'cause I quite liked it. Vault Rising, which is the other spin off is going ahead. And The Boys itself finish at the end of this month. So Yeah. I know Gen V's quite decent. I was expecting the Gen V characters to be more involved in this final season of the boys. And look, I haven't finished it. Maybe they will be, but so far. Not so much. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You furious about that? I mean furious would be a it seems perturbed. I'm I'm I'm I'm cocking a an eyebrow. Yeah. There's a raised eyebrow. Cocking an eyebrow. You do like an eyebrow. I do like a raised eyebrow. You're very ver you've got you're very into N V C very, very much so. Yeah. Right. Just this morning the news broke about Netflix casting for the next Harlan Coban um series. The Woods. Who's gonna be in that? I'll tell you. Oh, please do. Tom Bateman. Nice. Yeah. Michelle Keegan? Michelle Keegan back again. Huge star. Uh For Me Once, she was great. She was For Me Once was the biggest one. Yeah. She I think still uh believe it's the most successful of all the Harlan Cobans on Netflix. It was that was number one. That was that's really high up in the all time list. Yeah, it's very good. And that was partly down, she was brilliant in it, wasn't she? She was, but she's such a good actress. She's such a good actress. Mandeep Dillon? Nice. James Buckley of the In Between Us. Oh, yes, please. Piers Quigley. Small profits. Thank you. The greatest show this year so far. Oh go god. Tom Allen, the comedian. What Tracy Ann Oberman. Yes. Yes, indeed. And that's about it. That's enough, isn't it? Oh, I'm here for Piers Quigley in anything. Yeah, he is absolutely brilliant, yeah. Okay. Well there we go. Exciting stuff. It's it's just starts in production now. And my guess is it will probably be on around Christmas, New Year time. The shift they get their skates on. I mean that is the traditional slot, isn't it? Exactly. Exactly. And you have the news? No, I gave my Ted lasso. You did, you've already wrote news. But the trailer looks good. I thought I thought you know It's Tanya Reynolds of Sex Education who you love. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it does look good actually. All the regulars back, pretty much. I like having them back after a little a little break, especially when we didn't think we'd see them back again. Well I th I was gonna say I was gonna give us credit by saying I think we absolutely laid out this possibility. Well it I mean they did tee it up, didn't they? They did tee up a bit, yeah. But I think we're like I would definitely come back 'cause again, something that's successful, it can't it's not just gonna go away forever, especially when all the you know, main players as well. Well, especially since Steph's now started watching it. So well that's the main thing. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why they've brought it back. Okay, good. That was news. Should we move on to the reviews? Why not? Let's do that. And we begin this week with Secret Service on ITV, and this is adapted from the book by Tom Bradby, uh, who also acts as the showrunner here. And this sees Gemma Arston as one of her majesty's finest. A senior MI6 operative working on the Russia desk. And wouldn't you know it, then maybe a spy. in the UK government. Uh, boy, you are our man in the Kremlin. Uh so please give us all the classified material you can dig up on this. Assuming you are not somehow compromised yourself. Except I am compromised. You are also much spy. Much like the spy. Wow. That's right. So Boyd, unfortunately. Is the mould. As we know, I'm never in the pocket of anyone, so we're gonna let loose. Yeah. Go for it. Right. Okay. You're in the secret service. No. Yeah. The official secret act mean you cannot disclose your feelings on the show. Well unfortunately for Gemma. Uh, in the background I'm doing a rewatch. And the rewatch Is homeland. And this is very, very unfortunate for Gemma. Uh because uh Carrie Matheson can basically never been be beaten. And so Berenson and I mean it's just it's an unfortunate timing for Gemma. I'm sure she's worried about it. problem I have with this. Um Is Gem Austin It's a very good actress. She is excellent and she's almost too good for this. She's giving movie star No, I tell you what it is for me, she's giving movie star energy. a more to a domestic sh sort of which feels like a very kind of domestic and quite pedestrian show. I'm sorry, I really want to be behind this because it's IT V and I I want to s get James to start liking ITV. But My big issues are it. It's nothing I haven't seen before. She her act She's act in a role When she's acting in something that nobody else in any of the scenes to be acting in. Honestly, I know this is gonna sound really scathing, but she she I I mean it as a compliment to her. She's wonderful, but The the patrol she puts on is got big screen energy and this is small screen and it just jars for me. Um I thought it was a bit boring to be perfectly honest. I I didn't even I wasn't even bothered about um anyone being found out or, you know, the the the the people it just just didn't care. I just thought it was really, really dull. I have said I am watching Homeland. Homeland is like one of my favourite shows ever. Homeland really went off the rails though, didn't it? Well it it it gets increasingly mad. But we'll allow it. Okay, right. I I could do a l I could talk a lot about Homeland, but it doesn't no it's not that it gets mad. to Carrie Matherson's state of mind and that' that that is represented in what happens in the shop. But let's not get into that because we're that's a problem. I'm not sure you can you can you can blame the the m the completely insane plotting entirely on her bipolar disorder. Well we can get into that in a in a discussion about it, but however. And Just right, okay. It's just not that good. It just isn't. But it isn't like right in You know, I I'm thinking about Black Doves with Kieran Ideal which which was incredible, like This For this kind of thing to be really good. Right. It has to have something different. Right. And this has absolutely nothing different. And the plot of the first that's is it the so the first episode is there's a secret s there's something somebody's got an illness and they said they think there's there's a leak somewhere. I don't want to give I don't want to spoil anything. I mean that's just fucking boring. Like I couldn't give I couldn't care next. It's boring. It's really boring. And Gemma Arson is great. It's like. There's more to it, to be fair it's not just there's a leak somewhere. It's that the it's that a high ranking politician in the British government has a terminal illness. Oh I know, yawn. I mean yawn that's a different boring. You may find that boring, but just in response to what you previously said, you say it was uh just about and I'm saying it's not it's about Can I can I can I just now I I totally get I I agree with Steph, that has to be said. But I wonder whether it's not so much that inherently this person having an illness is boring. It's that this is really stody storytelling. It is so acutely humorless. Like it is so po faced. And there are scenes in this where I literally wrote down how can a show with so many good people be this wooden? Because some of the dialogue delivery caused me physical pain. I agree. I totally agree. But genuinely. I just want to get race spoil. Who is amazing. Why did you do this, mate? Because you've you've done yourself down. You're so good. Done yourself down. Done yourself a disservice. But that's service, yeah. Why are so many good people in in this it's so wooden. Alex Kingston turns up, you're great, not here, you're not. It's making good actors seem shit. Yeah, and I think genuinely that's it. And no massive I mean I guess this is disrespect to Tom Bradby, but I just I just feel that the storytelling here is leaden and it's just it's a painful. And I you know, this is so my alley. Like this is exact I and I even like stuff that takes itself quite seriously. But you got to have a you know, if you don't have a little bit of levity, you know, you gotta have a little bit of a. I'm agree about that. I think there is levity in it. I think in Mark Stanley's character who is does the oily, incredibly oily, kind of obnoxious politician act. And Rave Sports performance in in in itself is kind of a lighter is of a l a lighter. So I think That's where the kind of light stuff comes from is from the from the performance. You're earning your cash point, isn't it? In a year's time no one is gonna remember this series. Um I mean I'll remember it. I I'm gonna defend it. I mean they're pocket. Often I get sent stuff in advance and go, What you know are you interested in hosting this thing? And if I think something's terrible and I'll honestly I have I do sometimes turn stuff down. I know it's difficult to believe. But I I enjoyed it. I'm just genuinely enjoying it. I'm I'm surprised by the extent of of the enmity that's pouring out both of you. I really did I I you know I look I li I I will give anything a go. I am very open minded. I mean I just I couldn't find I can't find Anything in this that I liked? You see, for me, I I thought the the whole execu first of all it's kind I think it's John McCarry light. You know, it's very light. Right. But that's the big influence for me. But that is but that is that is the the kind of world we're living in. It's a world where it's it's looking at the um juncture between politics, espionage, intelligence, et cetera, and the kind of machinations of the highest levels of government as uh and grappling with the secret service and grappling with secrets and lies and all of that. So it's like it's it's definitely the fact that there's a a mole somewhere in the government and that one of the government um p people, it turns out, is going to has a terminal illness. And they've got a undercover agent recording stuff going on at the uh the villa is it in Malta or wherever the village is not in Malta I don't know. Yeah no it's set in Malta. I all of those elements I I I also really like this stuff. I'm a huge fan of John Le Carrey's stuff even you know, when sometimes adaptations of his stuff aren't as good as other ones. I think the Night Manager, which we both mm loved it was John Le Carrie adaptation. This isn't as good as that. It's it's you know it's kind of mid level. I think it's mid. I think it's uh to be honest. Oh okay, tell me something. Um did you did you which characters do you care about in this? I care I certainly care about her. I think her and Rafe Spall are an interesting couple. I think Rafe Spool's really interesting because you're not I think there's a certain amount of uncertainty about him and then he's always incredibly watchable and great. But my particular favourite, I have to say, was Mark Stanley, as the oily, unbelievably Kind of. I don't know, lizard y is a word for it that I'm not g that I've forgotten. But anyway, he's kind he is the one he's the one for me that it really not not is the main reason to watch, but he's adds a very enjoyment layer of kind of You know. possibly the all too obviously. bad guy in the in the middle of all this and he's I thought he was very effective and fun. And I think it I think it's like one of those shows it feels like it's got the near of taking itself seriously, but actually once you dig into it It it isn't particularly not not you know, as much as You know, a jo a a j a John McCarry story takes itself seriously. So you could say The Soldier Spy, one of the best dramas of all time. You could say, Oh, that takes itself very seriously. But you there's also the levity within the story within certain characters. But there's also I would say to that those stories can take themselves seriously because A, they're very serious in their execution, but also the sort storytelling is so sophisticated. And it's still very propulsive. The night manager isn't a lolfest. And this isn't just a budget issue because obviously they do have budget limitations here and the night manager is incredibly. But The storytelling there is so compelling and the characterization is absolutely on point. I'm not saying this is as good. Yeah. I'm not saying that. But the thing is like this should be better than it is, I think, given the calibre of people on the screen. I agree. It has got an incredible cast. It really does. Like Avi Nash is in it, who's brilliant in silo. You've got loads of great people, even in the supporting roles. And so I I think I was watching this, I don't understand why this isn't better. It should be better. Yeah, you're watching it. I completely agree with you. I think they th I think all of those people thought it was a an interesting and fun and uh story that you know. Sure. But I I I enjoy it. I genuinely enjoy it. Roger Allen being I like all that all the machinations at the different level, the bit different people trying to being kind of difficult with her when she's trying to do the right thing and you she has to count out all these men that are running things. I thought I enjoyed all that stuff. I thought it was great. Seen it before been there. I think the seen it before thing, that's why I I'm saying it's like mid level John LaCarry. You could say all John LeCari's brilliant novels genius that you was within the same realm and within the same world and dealt with similar They're all about finding moles half of them, you know. But so you can reduce anything to we've seen it all before. Everything before and it's still fun and interesting and dramatic. And I take I completely respect your your view that it should be much better. I get it. But for me it's fun and interesting and exciting enough. within the genre w which we've seen before many times, for it to be valid viewing. I just rewatch slow horses. Yeah, well see that's if you if you're watching like Yeah, I mean I'm just gonna bring up Black Doves again. I mean, come on. Yeah, or Black Bad. See, Black Doves is an interesting character. Black Doves is is a much more humorous, fun proposition. Tonally it's different. This is so that's why I'm bringing keep bringing up yet again the the John LeCari thing. It's trying to be like that. Okay. Well I don't think it's trying to be anything like Black Doves. I think it's completely different. It is trying to be John LeCari, I guess. Yeah, it's whether or not he succeeds. I don't I don't you know I don't disagree. I think it's fun to have that for the real life people that have pestons in it being peston. You've got you know the the presenters of of Good Morning Britain playing themselves, all that kind of stuff. That added an element of fun to it from I don't know how fine T V cross promotion there I think pestons in episode two. But it's fun to see Pest interviewing the the the the dramatized foreign secretary live on television. All that stuff I thought was was entertaining. You should definitely watch episode two. She'll have a great time, you'll love it, and you'll do a complete reverse spirit and you'll agree with me. Secret Service then, which is on ITV now? Uh it is on now, yes. Sunday nights I think it's on at the moment. He just says rapping. Oh well, suddenly you're not going to that anymore. Okie dokie. Right, next up we have series two of Amanda Land, which you don't already know is the spin off of Motherland. And this is Lucy Punch as Amanda. Now You may recall last week that uh Boyd laid down a, I want to say, a trigger warning specifically for me, stating In no uncertain terms, this episode features a school careers talk that he strongly suspected would cause me to actually physically die. Um I remember now. Yeah. And let me tell you, I was still not prepared. This was A lot. Now, Boydy, you're not in the pay of big Amanda Lines. So have assets. I love Amandeland. I mean it's it what What's interesting about it is for me is obviously the spin off from Motherland, which was the first iteration where we m first met the these these characters, um, Amanda Lucy Punch and Philip Dunn and Felicity, her mum. Uh. Joe Lumely as we call that. And I think this is a example of the perfect spin off because the original was great. The original was a big ensemble piece. There was a little bit more focus, wasn't there, on the one character than the others. But it was but you you met all of these parents who are having various levels of difficulty with their children. That com it it was all about that competitiveness there is, as I'm sure you know all about, stuff when you drop off your kids at school. No, I just don't try and compete. Fair enough. Um but to extract from that show this character of the character of Amanda, brilliantly portrayed by Lucy Punch, is she she's one of the great comedy characters. And then she's getting there. and one of the great comedy performances. She's she's in the kind she's like the David Brent of this world. Yeah. She's got that brilliant her expressions, the physical comedy as you say, the the her interjections, her the the dialogue they've written for her is brilliant. But so equally is that of all the other characters as well. So, you know, the kind of is there isn't there the a a a frisson. Um with Samuel Anderson's character, the the the football coach, the kids, the boys' football coach, etc. The lesbian couple who've been split up in this sec in this series with one of them off being a chef on a luxury line, the other one who's a complete idiot, is at home not knowing how to turn the electric on. Um They're all superbly delineated characters. And what I think this what um Amanda does more than any other recent T V comedy I can think of except the Alan Partridge one. Alan Powers does this every single half hour episode of any Anna Patrick show the always like the p the sheer number of jokes and one liners and witty ob comments and brilliant observations and if or it might be a phys of slapstick or In this in this case, the first subject of the excruciating. Talks to the kids is so clever because you get all first one, then you get another one, and then it climaxes with her one, there's another one. All absolute genius. execution of that whole idea of giving a talk to your um to pupils, including one of your own offspring, who is absolutely humiliated each time by each of the people who give the talk to the school. It's absolutely brilliant. There's a new character called Abs. Who's played by um Harriet Webb, who you remember from Big Boys. She's brilliant in Big Boys. For me the the I'm gonna use the I'm trying to avoid the G word, it's overuse genius, but the brilliance of this show is that you go they brought this new character in and with within five seconds of meeting her, you completely believe her and she's really funny or she takes against Amanda instantly and Amanda takes against her. There's a competitive thing going on. She's absolutely brilliant, Harriet Webb in this performance. She's completely real and you totally believe that she's a bit of a snarky superior person who looks down upon Amanda. And it's and that is a new experience for Amanda to have someone looking down on her. is really fascinating. It dips into all the zeitgeist stuff about that she's an influence. She's constantly filming herself. They don't overdo that. They kind of like because she's she she is, you know, a middle aged woman. At one point in episode two, I think she's like, Am I middle aged? She's shocked horror horror. But she's a middle aged person trying to be an influencer. They d and they don't kind of it it it that could be cliched and stereotyped and simplistic and obvious, but they do it in such a brilliant way. Her filming herself. It's just one of the funniest things. So every minute there's something funny going on in this show. They work so hard at making it work. Every single scene has has funny stuff going on. It's absolutely brilliant. I think it should not be underestimated how good it is. We're really we're really vibing again, boyd. Thank God for that. I couldn't I could It's not funny in Secret Service, but it is fun. Right. Everything you said I had written down. Um Oh my God. You know what? Thank God for Harriet Webb is such a fantastic edition. She's so good. I loved her I loved her character in Big Boys so much. And she, yeah, like you you instantly get what she's about straight away in this. And The point that you made about the number of jokes, the number of laughs, from it's half hour and it's it's joke after joke after joke, but it doesn't it They've got the pacing so right. How how they lay out the the jokes. It's just it's so brilliant. But my s absolute star of Amandaland is Philip Adunn, who plays Anne. Oh my God. She has a real um how many of you watched uh of these, Boyd? Three. Okay, I've watched I watched all of them. I couldn't stop watching it. No, yeah. I couldn't stop watching because I would have carried on by a time. Philippa Dunn, who is Anne, who is the Irish mother in here, she um she's sort of the put upon uh you know, best friend Amanda. And she there is an incredible episode. Did you watch the Chatty Pete episode? No, Chat GPT episode. She calls it Chatty PT. Oh my God. There's an episode where sh they discover chat GPT she discovers Chat GPT and it's One of the funniest things I've ever seen. It yeah. I I don't I have I have no notes on this. The the one line is a brilliant, all the setups are great. Joanna Lumley's uh Joanna Lumley's got a really kind of a a great uh subplot in this heart running through this um second this second season. It's interesting because she arrives on the football picture in the cabs. In the cabs. It's got uh just so many so many things. You don't want to give away all the jokes because it's so There's a great um there's a great episode where a coffee and an upmarket coffee house comes to Soha. So as she calls it. And that's g everything's just It's just a joy to watch. Just a joy. Yeah. So I I actually I'm glad you mentioned Philippa Dunn 'cause there's an interesting thing that they do with her character, which is that she's newly assertive. 'Cause there's just like one moment where someone says something to her almost off that off the off hand they say something like, Oh, you should try to start telling me. This is Roshenda Sandals. And that I thought they would kind of just do that in the episode, but that c that is part of her arc. Yeah throughout the series. And her telling Amanda what she really thinks of her is incredibly. It's a bold move because sitcom characters often have one thing, that that's their thing. And and her she's The thing of her is she was often w trod all over by Amanda and she was like Amanda's sidekick, but was in in thrall to her. And now she's rebelling against it. It's a brilliant daring move, I think in the Philippine Done for me, it m makes it I mean they've they're all so exceptionally great. what they do. And I mean my like I just want to m make note of Lucy Punch is a physical comedy. I know we just mentioned this. Is that is Oh yeah. You don't see that so often now, but just because just even her hair tosses, everything is. When she makes her presentation. Oh my God. Just her r uh the running, the she's into the running now. Everything is yeah, is this is a real no notes, but uh Philip Adum for me absolutely makes it sh for me, she gives me the the biggest laughs. um the last and she's she doesn't do anything cringy really, does she? Doesn't has she doesn't have the cringe gentlemen. She's the one you identify with. She's the one we're looking at. And I know listen, I know an Amanda Land. I know an Amanda. I know we all know lots of those yeah I think everybody's the same person. No, but I you know. Oh yeah, there's one there's a big one. Yeah. But we all know these kinds of people. And that just makes it all the more funny. But yeah just anyway, let's turn to a comedy correspondent shame. No, but the th the thing about this and I can't speak the serious because I never made it past the first episode and I can only really tell you what it looks like from the small crack I can see from underneath my sofa. Uh but When you're talking cringe, the scene that you mentioned, Boyden, which is the careers presentation scene, that is the WMD of cringe comedy. Like I can't remember honestly ever being in as much emotional pain as I was when I was watching that. It was like I was like being shot through the heart. Like it was so painful to me. I didn't think I'd make it through the episode. I literally had to stop it at one point and go and make a cup of tea because I just couldn't cope. I should have done your thing, Steph. I should have said, you know what, I'm gonna watch this on my phone, like turn it right down and just because I almost just couldn't handle it. It was too much. Too much. It is quite painful. Because exactly as you were saying, Boy, it's the layering. Cause you've got this oh that's cringe. Oh that's worse. That's worse. And then you do her one and you're like, oh God. And then you're like, oh I've survived it. And then it gets even worse. And you're just like, I can't I can't look at the screen. I can't actually be in my own skull. I can't deal with any of this. It was just It was one of the most horrific experiences of my life. Boyd, have you got to the episode where I've written down this line because it was Harriet Webb gets a great line um in one of the episodes where Amanda says something disparaging about pastries and she says to her You come for Greg's, you come for me. I've seen that episode, yeah. It's that kind of writing which I'm like it so resonates with me as well, 'cause I love Greg's. And I like especially when we were talking about g Gales, weren't we? We're talking about Gales him Pilot Plus and I was like, I love Greg's and Harriet Webb, again, yeah, just brilliant, but James, I'm so sorry. It's I mean it's it is genius. The show is genius, but I just don't have the fortitude for it. I can't survive it. That scene in particular, because I didn't have this season one of Motherland. Not of Amanda Land. Uh it definitely has because there's more cringe in the mad land than the motherland. But this was like they've dialed it up to eleven. Do you know they have dialed up but they've they've dialed up the joke count, which is what I think um Boy and Noah referring to, because it does it does feel funnier. It feels even funnier. I was always worried actually when they said that sh that it was gonna be a Manderland spin off, 'cause I really love motherland. But Now I'm like, Why wouldn't they have done an Amanda like that? But you say that, but it could have failed for the simple reason that a character like that, who's quite extreme at times and works as a kind of comedy supporting character, could come across as too much if they're the focus of a show. Like it a hundred percent could happen. But they've pulled it off brilliantly. Yeah. I mean I uh all credit to Lucy Punch. All credit. Yeah. She she talks about the Far East investors who is H S B C if they would when they get the dog as well. Oh so many good. So many good I I have questions about the dog. In in terms of ha training that must have gone on with that dog to do what it does in 'cause that's not a C G I dog, right? That's very much a real dog. Yeah. I mean that's brilliant, whoever the dog trainer o slash owner is. And the other thing that was amazing is Joanna Jo Joanna Lumley's character. Um is is is Gets a gets a boyfriend. And then when Amanda confronts her and says, um Basically you need to wear condom. She says that she could get pregnant. It's like I just could get pregnant if I want to. It's just so many brilliant things about it. Every single line that every single line that Joanne Joanne Lumely gets is is is a treasure, yeah. Every single one. It's it's fantastic. I'm so I'm so sorry that you can't enjoy it. It's like it's like having a gluten. It's like being gluten intolerant. I'm I'm cringe intolerant. I'd like to eat the food, but I can't. The first episode is It's peak cringe, but it's a shame because there's so many funny one liners in it. There are. There are. There definitely are. I'm sad for you. Don't be sad for me. I mean yeah, but this is a man who can't watch succession, he can't watch, you know he can't watch some of the greatest TV of all time. So constantly have to remind people. Void I have allergies. Like this is my allergy. I'm allergic to this type of thing. It's okay, we all I don't say that. But you maybe try and watch episode two on your phone. Gonna read volume one. Yeah. Amand then with plans on BBC One War and Boyding. Wednesday the sixth of May at nine PM and I think all episodes will be on the iPlayer. From then on as well. Fabulous. Finally, this week, we have the new show from Responders. Tony Schumacher, which sees Michael Soccer. Yes, as we've said, that is how you pronounce it. It rhymes with the sport. I say we've discovered this. Kay went and found out for us. It's rhyme with the sport. It literally is said like the sport. It technically does rhyme with the sport, but it is the same word, yes. Michael Soccer. It's the same word. It's spelled differently. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, anyway, anyway, anyway. Michael Sokka thought that is his name. And Sheridan Smith. Uh they're two people who are kind of down on their luck and they both work at a casino and simultaneously have the idea that they might be able to, shall we say, liberate some of their employer's cash to alleviate their financial woes. Clearly they could have just asked Boydie for a loan, but they didn't. So instead we are going to ask Steph for a review. Oh gosh, Sheridan Smith. Welcome. Welcome back, Sheridan Smith and Michael Sock. I just I love these two together. Um I've spoken to a lot of people this morning and they're all watching The Cage. Everybody's watching The Cage. You did a random survey. I did no, because we talked in the morning like what people were, oh, everyone's like, Have you watched The Cage? Because There's a particular thing that happens in the first episode. Um I don't want to give away spoiler. Can I give a spoiler No you can't even have watched it. No. You cannot give away a spoiler. There' okay, there's a something that happens in the first episode to Sheridan Smith's character and you're like Oh God, no, no, I can't watch, I can't watch, I can't watch And that's definitely a spoiler. Yeah. And anyway, we were all talking about that this morning. If you've watched it, you'll know what it is that What it is that happens. But What I particularly loved about this is you know, my my hatred of uh starting again things is about The fact that there's no scenery, there's no you know, there's no v there's no vistas, there's nothing, okay? But in this vistas. Well, you two won't know about this because you live in ivory towers and you don't get down with the people. But the thing is, what what's really brilliant is about this is that they've managed to um the world around Sheridan Smith is the world that You look a lot of just a lot of people living in this country and you really get to grips with the idea of though it's not an abject poverty, but it's like a people trying to get by, people just trying to pay their bills, people just trying to have enough money to buy their kids' Christmas presents, making sure and I think they've d delivered that really, really well in this. Uh exceptionally well. And I love it because, you know, just even um Uh, where the people are living on cancer states and all that kind of stuff, you know, and I live in a in an area like that. And I thought this is w this is really well done. You you totally both of their characters you totally believe he's a father, um, he doesn't he he's he's he's his former partner lives with their daughter and and has got another partner. And all of that kind of stuff, I think, is just really well observed and brilliantly executed, which only go only supports this fantastic story brilliantly. Um yeah, the tension's great. I love the alliance between these two. It's hard to talk about this. I know I say this a lot, it's hard to talk about things without giving away spoilers, but Yeah. It's a it's brilliant. I absolutely brilliant. It's Sheridan Smith at her best for me. I think she's m they've both been perfectly cast in this. And yeah, I l I absolutely loved it. Yeah, I think um I'm absolutely um Delighted and thrilled for um Tony Schumacher wrote it who I have interviewed. Must have for this podcast. Maybe so many times. With Jack Thorne so many times. I think the responder you know, his first show, right? Wh was very much steeped in his own knowledge of the police and how the police work and he had done that job. He's a former uh law enforcement officer, aka policeman. And um So you're like uh it but it was it was kind of ten times better. in a way that had any right to be. Talking of talking of a genre as we're talking before disagreeing about Secret Service and I was saying you know you were saying we've seen it all before. In a way, we've seen all of the responder, what happened to the responder before, you know, it's it's a world of over overworked police dealing with drug dealers, low level drug dealers, young kids being exploited by drug dealers. Which happens again in this series, right? So we've almost seen some of what this is doing before in his own show, but it's the quality of his writing. And the authenticity of it all is and that's so hard to do. That's why I was looking for the word authentic. It feels so authentic so English and authentic. It really does feel like it. The brilliant thing for th for me this is 'cause this is going into you know this this is almost more about the criminal element. You know, than it is about the police. I mean, and we we saw to to some degree that element in in the responder, but it was f definitely from the police point of view, from Martin Freeman's character particular point of view. Whereas this is more you've got both of the two leads, um Sheridan Swiss character and and uh Michael Sog's characters. in depth kind of character building of those two right from the start is so clever. But he also takes no time at all to thrust you into the almost comical situation where these two employees at the casino both have the same idea to steal money at exactly the same time. They're literally in the office together, that great scene. And you're like, it's such a brilliantly conceived moment. He must I I imagine him going, punching the air, going, This is such a great idea that I've got. And I'm going to execute it really well to make it seem believable. Even though it's a little bit far fetched in some ways. So it's incredibly authentic. It's unbelievably moving. Th there's a s there's a there's a kind of talk about A B C plot, right? So like there's a C plot really that is her grand show this Grand who's got Alzheimer's that's unbelievably moving. That would be enough for a whole other series. You could do a six eight car in the world we're living in right now drama about A a a an an elderly lady having Alzheimer's and what what that's and it's so brilliantly done again. Just the sh the You know, f it loads of families experience uh strength about time. It resonates so brilliantly. It's so well observed. It's almost painful how well observed that stuff is. But or even the teens as well, there's teenage characters in there that are getting involved with drugs and all of that. We've seen it all before to quote you. But no no no but it's so brilliantly done that it is irrelevant that we've seen it all before. Because he brings a freshness to it in every single way. And and the criminal Robin storyline, which is the main the A storyline, if you like, to use these tw terms. Rather pretentiously. Um It's so well executed again. You just go along with the whole thing. And so and yeah, she's incredible. Michael Socker, I think this is one of the most interesting roles, 'cause so he tends to play he tends to play quite kind of um not necessarily violent, but was quite scary characters in a way. Remember what it feels like to be a girl. That that she was in that as the dad. And he was quite scary in that. Um whereas in this he's kind of he's a flawed he see his flaws there. But he's lovable. But he's kind of lovable. He's a recovering addict. Exactly. There's a scene there's a scene where he's wrapping up you know, some drugs and he's trying to talking to himself. Yeah, it yeah, it's relatable is the word here. Relatable it resonates It's just But it is and finally my final point you touched upon is that um we're talking in our ivory towers, you know, that it is it it still is really rare to get proper working class stories in in T V drama. And this is how to do it, I think. You know, this is where You know, it it just if it people on the edge because they can't afford stuff. That is the bottom line of this show. Yeah. Right. And that's incredibly pertinent to what we've been in his case is because he has a gambling addiction, you know, more than anything else. Yeah. It's just I think the other it but You know, like I said, like I live in in in in an area like this and there's kids out on their bikes kicking balls against a no ball games allowed sign. I I live in an a in an area like that and and these you know, I know people who have got their their gr grands who've got d dimensional so it it feels it's just so real to me. And not in a overtly depressing way, in a way that this is just their life and this is what they do with them. You ha you're dealing with this level of poverty. Like I said, it's not abject poverty, but it is a level of poverty where people are trying to right raise themselves out of this and get by. People just want these people want to get by it feels like he's joining the you know, like a a a a a list of T V writers like Jimmy McGovern and Alan Bleeser. I'm talking about absolutely Dennis Potter. Um it may I even say Rossity Davis of like people write about real stuff going on in such a brilliant, pertinent way. They're reflecting if I get I'm gonna get really pompous now, the society that we live in. Yeah, no, I completely agree with you. James. Uh yeah, I agree with all all of what you're saying. There were a couple of things that bug me. Uh uh one was was I felt like there were there were certain decisions made. Look, um it's very easy to say these characters are so stupid it's frustrating. generally speaking, people who are robbing because they're not criminal masterminds. Like this isn't Danny Ocean. Like it's a very But some of the some of the the the things and the thing that you referenced earlier, which we will not spoil, that sequence annoyed me. It's stupid. It annoyed me for the stupidity, but also kind of because it you know, if you have a little bit of what they call like fairness sensitivity. It's enraging, infuriating, like it's quite a stressful moment. Like it's really intense. And but the thing is like I think she plays that particularly well. Again, not spoiling what it is, in that her reaction to it is just like it just knocks the feet out from underview. Uh which is which is a hard thing to. Actually, you've reminded me of something. Sorry. Go on, no, no, go for it. I have two. There's one criticism I have, which is that corridors Sorry. No corridors fine. Um very early on, she has like a primal screen moment, right? She's when she's standing on the roof and she screams and then again she does the primal screen. And I thought if they hadn't done the first one, the second one would have hit high. I don't think I would have I would have called. That's a very small It's a no it's a note from me to the great Tony Show. The first one I don't think Yeah. did enough. The second one, you're there for it. You feel it. And it feels like okay, we've been here before. Yeah. I I think I would have made that same decision. Um and there was another scene, and again, I think when they encounter each other and they've both had the same idea. There was just one note there, which again I don't really want to say, but it's just it's the the the fact that she's holding the cash like that. I just thought, really? Like, you know, if you were gonna steal a load of money, I don't know, I'd shove it in a pocket. Just me. I'm not a criminal mastermind, but that's just my tip. But don't you think that this is exactly how it would play out with these people who live in that world. And I think honestly that is the point. Because like if you're thinking of this thing, if you were a mastermind, what would you do? But these are as you say they're not criminal masterminds. They are just trying to eek out a living. And they're they see an opportunity and for right or wrong, wrong, uh, they take that opportunity. But I I think, you know, it it it has a a a layer of believability to it, which I think Tony Schumacher did bring to the responder where it does feel there's something about it that just feels very authentic. Um And yeah, it's really well shot, by the way. I think because you're you you could think it would be grim and gritty and kind of grueling, but there's something about the way it's shot. It's actually quite brightly lit bright. The Vista you talked about, which looks very similar to me to adolescence off the top of my head. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, isn't it? You know, that when you see the exterior of it. It's Liverpool, isn't it? Yeah similar area. And I even filmed it in it. close by, but um visually it's much more interesting than you might expect, I think, which is very important. Actually even oh what ha I just I actually quite like the scenes where they're just g getting to work and walking through the casino, which act could be really late. Oh and I've completely forgotten the thing I'm really messed up. The music. Oh my God, the music music. And I know Tony Schema, he's very into into his choosing his music. I'm I'm be interested to know how many of the song they picked are in the script because you get pretty much through the whole of a New Order song early on. The almost the entirety of a the the song. It's all eighties music. And you think why? Because first of all, by the way, you know that computer in the office that looks like something out of the eighties. And one of my colleagues one of our colleagues complained about that to me this morning saying she didn't understand why if the would that computer still be working when it's such an ancient desktop thing. And I was like, I think it probably would because all it's dealing with is like, you know, figures being tapped into it. But to start with, it's a bit confusing because you've got eighties music on the soundtrack and this very eighties ish computer like is it's it's with an old dot matrix printer. But then it turns out that the daughter character of s of Michael Sogazulte is into eighties music. You know they start talking about the mode mode and all in Yasu and I loved all that. I like just this just Tony Schumacher using his own excession 'cause it's a similar age to mi to me, I think. Young, where eight is music is everything and that I love the music choices. Absolutely brilliant. Yeah. cage then. B B C One? Yes. Uh also started last week, so it's ongoing on um and you I think all the episodes are on the iPlayer now and it's on Sunday night if you're watching live. Is it Sunday night or Monday night? One of the two. Sunday night. Excellent. What else is out this week? Okay. So he turns to his copy. It's a classic. Legends. Legends. Legends, which we will do on Pilot Plus Most Live. We will do on Pilot Plus. That's on Netflix on Thursday. That's the show that Steve Coogan's in, and we uh in we interview I interviewed Steve Coogan with uh James watching on closely from on by um in this very studio a couple weeks ago. We did have yeah you're off. Yeah. So that Interview will we'll be on with him and he Mentions the fact that he's in the white lotus coming out. Yes. Do you remember the patient? Do you remember that thing with um Steve Carrell and Donald Gleeson, where he was the shrink and Donald Gleeson's character was the patient and he turned out to be a serial killer. Do you remember? It was on Disney Plus. I T V X is showing it on Wednesday if you if you don't have access to Disney Plus. And that was very interesting. Show Citadel Returns to Prime Video. It does the most expensive TV show ever made. Yeah. Uh that's arriving on Wednesday. Should you wish to continue watching it. Number one fan, which is the latest channel five, slash just five as it's now known. Um Thriller. is on Monday to Thursday and that Stilka. Stilka And that stars Well the funny thing about it is it stars Jill Halfpenny and Sadie Lindsay are literally the faces of five. Yes. They are in everything on five. From not just drama shows but to quiz shows, reality shows talking heads they are on everything. But fair enough. Uh the show called unconditional on Apple TV on Friday Which is an Israeli drama that has a premise where um a mother it's a mother-daughter going on vacation together and then the daughter's accused of something and it and the mother has to fight for a freedom. It's quite new. Unconditional Apple TV. And I believe M IA comes to Paramount Plus, I wanna say, which is the new show from the creator of Ozark. Uh and that drops on Thursday. I think that's about it. Okay. That is about it. What is our pick of the week? Secret service. All right. I can't pick between them. They're both brilliant. Okay, they're both brilliant. I don't know. The thing about a mandoland is such a joy to have in these times as Mandaland. We didn't do Pick of the Week last week. Did we not? No, but it was okay because we all agreed it was when I'm going to be able to read out. We ran out of time because we've got evicted from the studio. Okay, I'm gonna go with the Mandaland as well, even though I can never ever watch that episode ever. Watch it on your phone. Ever again. I'm gonna buy you one of those kind of tiny watches. I'd just watch it on my watch. That might be the way to go. Okay, brilliant. That is it for this week's show. We hope you enjoyed it. Please do leave us a nice review. On whatever podcast platform you so choose. And please do subscribe to Pilot Plus as well at HTV Pod dot com Uh, we will be back in your ears on Thursday, probably reviewing legends on Pilot Plus. Uh, and next week, what is our next week? Well, Steve Cooking, as as Body mentioned, we'll be on the podcast next week. Uh, the the Punisher One last kill is out next week. Now technically that is a one off T V dramatic event. It's not a film, but it is a one off event. Will that qualify? Who knows? Good omens season three, the final season of good omens comes to prime next. That's a one off as well. There you go. Is that a film? Hard to say. Exactly. Off campus comes to prime. Uh what is oh the fourth series of from From is returning to Sky One, a show that only I watch. Yeah Dutton Ranch is on Paramount Plus, that is the latest Yellowstone versus instalment. The fifth of shoot. And Rivals? Yes, I have to almost certainly be embargoed, but we'll think. Oh do you missed out a show on the on the also out, which is Believe Me, which is the um which is a true crime drama. Oh this coming Sunday on IT V. What's that? Um that is about is it John Warboys the um taxi cab. Uh rapist. Traumatic. Real traumatic but that is a quite a big deal with um Danny Mays.