Final Thoughts on Grudges and Life

Welcome to Pods America. I' Johnv. I just wrapped a great conversation with the writer, David Sigeris, who's out with a new collection of essays called The Land and itss People. We talked about his father's support for Trump, why no one cared when David was bit by a dog, what you can't talk about in a healthy relationship. Moby Dick, International McDonald's, the word queer punching down, why he avoids prie parades, and what he fears most about getting old And speaking of pride over on the Love or Leave it channel. this week we are doing a Pride special with Markin Delicado from Hacks, Drag race winner, Mikey Meeks, Osko, Kodska, and the legend himself, Bruce Valanche, plus many more guests. Check out Love it or Leave it every Wednesday and Friday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. All right, now let's go to my conversation with Davidonaris David Seraris Sos so nice to meet you. So so nice to have you here. Oh, thanks so much for having me. Ten years ago After Trump won the first time, you wrote an essay for the Paris Review. about arguing with your father over whether Trump is an asshole And then the next day, your dad says to you, so are you still talking to me And I thought that was interesting because He didn't say I'm not talking to you. He said, A you still talking to me? And I often feel like with especially inside of a family When you're arguing about Trump There's this understanding that whether it's admitted or not You know he's a bad person And there's something a little bit wrong with voting for him. And people are looking for some kind of uh forgiveness or lack of judgment even though they know they did something wrong. And I'm wondering if you felt that When you were talking to your father, other people in your life that voted for Trump. with my dad it started. Really, he was like a Republican like just wanted to keep more of his own money And then he voted for Jesse Helmes, which was a thing because Jesse Helmms would grew up in Raleigh And he was on the Wh's was did editorials on the news. And even as a kid, you were like, wow, that guy's really severe, you know And then he ran for office and it really it really, when he voted for Jesse Helmms, it just became a different thing. and then Conservative radio came along and then he started listening to Rush Limbaugh and then he Fox News came along. and so then he was just in it all the time. He was in it in his car and he was in it at home. and it was on all the time like a rage machine, you know? And then when he moved into an assisted living, when he was like ninety five And he didn't know how to work the TV and For the first time, he wasn't up. He wasn't being agitated every minute. And toward the end of his life, he regretted. He told me he regreted voting for Trump which is interesting to me I like I have a friend who in England who is a ition and he and I Pick up trash together, right I first moved to the countryside in England. My boyfriend, Hugh wrote a letter to the council saying like, what's going on with all this trash on the side of the road And they invited us to the clean and tidy advisory board, right to a meeting. So we met this guy who's a local politician. And he goes and picks up trash himself. And so I do it myself every day between four and six hours, and sometimes he comes with me, right And he was a Tory, but now he's reformed Now he's Nigel Farrage. And he said, you're not going to want to talk to me anymore And I said Oh no, and that's not the case at all You know, like I would never stop talking to him over that. He answers any question I ask him You know, we don't And I appreciate that. I'd like to I'd like to know why he feels the way that he does. We've never raised our voices to each other It's u I think it's a great relationship And when my dad was like, you're not going you're right. He Well, I think part of it too My dad North Carolina, you know, gay marriage was illegal in North Carolina. and then they They introduced like a resolution that would make it extra, extra, extra, extra illegal. And my dad He was so happy to tell me he voted for that So happy to tell me that and And I happen to be in North Carolina at that time and You know, my my sister in law, her sister is gay And And I said, why shouldn't she be allowed to marry her girlfriend It sends the wrong message. And I said, what message is that And then he couldn't really answer. He He'd heard the answer on onn the radio or on TV, but he couldn't quite remember What was wrong with it, right? He couldn't quite Weall those words Um, anyyway, he was a dick, you know, just a complete dick. but and that was like the least of his Do know what I mean? It wasn't like he was a dick because of that. He was like a massive dick anyway. and then there was that. Right, rightight, no for shirpet But even like what you're saying about this this the person who said he went reform, likeike,, you're probably, you know you're probably not gonna want to talk to me. I've never heard a liberal say, I voted for Mum Danni, you're probably not going to want to talk to me. Like there's some kind of acknowledgement inside of it that It's an act of sabotage, but like of I'm so mad about everything. I'm going to do this. I'm going to vote for this sp these terrible people, or I'm going to become extreme. My reasons are legitimate, which you don't appreciate, but I know on some level I'm doing something wrong, right? That to me is what I often hear from and I feel that inside of when families are having these kinds of arguments. And I'm wondering if that's what you felt from your dad, even though even though you felt like he was also I felt it was more that me being gay had something to do with it. It would be like saying to a Jewish friend I voted for the Nazi Party, you're probably not going to want to talk Whereas you would say to somebody who wasn't Jewish You would say Yeah, I voted for the Nazi partarty and you wouldn't add, you're probably not going to want to talk to me because you can see how your vote is going to make this person's life more miserable. Pi You know, I know towards the very end of his life, Your father did say really acknowledge how much success you had and what kind of what you had built. but at the same time, He's looking you in the eye and being like, ye I'm just voting for the thing that is going to make your life worse and I'm just Do it because I' some of my friends from the radio What is that? Like is there Any acknowledgement? Like what do you think that was? Like what Why couldn't he? whyy did he care more about what He was seeing on the television than he did about you Oh be because it was all about money justust money I mean Yeah, ultimately it all came down to money. I mean, if Oh my goodness, if if You know, if a candidate said, I'm going to bring back concentration camps but I'm going to knock two dollars off your taxes. My father would have voted for that person because it would save two dollars two dollars was that important It's not like he didn't have two dollars. He was just, it was just Ultimately it was all about Money keep more of his money. So in nineteen, I was looking at one of your older diaries In nineteen ninety, you and your dad and your brother Paul spent eighteen hours in a pickup truck together driving from Illinois to North Carolina. and For someone who's now saying your father was a dick You also spend a lot of time together. L my father and I don't know what we would talk about if we were in a car together for eighteen hours. Do you remember that drive I remember it clearly If my father and I were in a car for eighteen hours, then he just would have criticized me for eighteen hours. but my brother was there And so That made it fun that my brother was there. But yeah, there was I often think of that. I was moving to New York City. so I was leaving Chicago and then I had some stuff I was going to bring to North Carolina And then I was gonna go I was gonna to paint a house. My father had rental property And I was going to paint a house and then use that money to move to New York with So we drove from Chicago to North Carolina and I painted the house. and I don't know the deal was maybe that I was going to get two thousand dollars for painting the house, right? And I painted the house And he said, I'll give you five hundred I mean, everything about my father prepared me for Trump You know, someone works for you and then you don't pay them. orr then you say, I'll pay you a quarter of what you're going to pay me. get You get a quarter or you get nothing So He was always a dick. You know, I mean, he might have driven me you know, that was nice of him, but I mean, it wasn't like You're just taking like a day's vacation from being a dick, you know Um So Now it's all these years later and you're telling the Wall Street Journal that you bought a twenty thousand five hundred dollars coat for your tour. So things have changed, thingsings have picked up for you. You're traveling around the world. H Talks to me about what international McDonald's. has taught you, seeing McDonald's and other countries and what it teaches you about the world and about America. I don't. Like I eat at McDonald's once a year in the Dallas airport because I find myself at lunchime in the Dallas Airport at least once a year, and there's really no other place to eat, right But when I go to other countries, I just love to see what McDonald's is offer, like the Grand Canyon Burger. We don't have the Grand Canyon Burger here You know, the Brooklyn Burger. I don't even know what would be on a Brooklyn burger. But you go to other countries and you see billboards and it so I always write it down. I don't know. I'm just But you don't eat them. You just go through don't know. I don't wry them. I just no, I just write them down and have the money my list of things that McDonald's offers in other countries Like I don't. necessarily know what they've U what they've got here. But I think if they had a Grand Canyon burger, I would have heard about it. or I would have seen an ad for it. They they don't have that I go there all the time When I was in Japan I was in Japan I I was visiting a friend in Japan. It's twenty years ago And He spoke Japanese, so that was going be helpful. And I don't speak any Japanese, but by the time I had landed, he'd gotten quite sick. And so I was alone in Japan. And every once in a while in a kind of feeling of overwhelm and panic, I would go to the McDonalds but you don't eat McDonald's in other countries. So for me, it's occasionally like a respite to be abroad and be like, you know what? I need to go into just I need ten minutes to be inside of the comfort and warm blanket of McDonald's, including eating it. But for you, it's more just sort of observing it almost like a David Ettenborough on the Serengeti as opposedort of consuming the McDonald'. Yeah, in Tokyo, I observe it and then I go to Horisha Nasburga Freshness burger and that's how it's pronounced. Horeresanas burger or moss burger Great, their Japanese chaint. And they're great So You seem to be a little bit annoyed by the language of the left these days. and You acknowledge that part of this is that you're getting older and everything is starting to annoy you more and more, which I appreciate though I feel like maybe you've always had a little bit of like there's you you've always had a kind of per snicky old man inside of you and maybe now it's from sherming Ouchch. But you do have an essaye book about punching down Is there anyone beneath you that you'd like to take a shot at right now Is there anyone youd like to punch down? No that essay came from when I first moved to New York City, I didn't know anybody. And so there was a class at the Y called Witing Funny. And it was taught by this woman named Frida Garmise, who used to be a Saturday comommentator on all things considered. And Really funny, this British woman. And I thought, oh gosh, there's not gonna to be any places left in the class because she's teaching And so I signed up for this class and I was the only one who knew who she was. And the first day, she said, what are the rules for comedy writing? And I said, you should never Make fun of anyone who has less power than you. And she said, Where on earth did you get that idea from? She said, No, the only rule of comedy writing is that you should be as tasteless as possible So I've stuck by that ever since she told me. I thought, that's a good rule. don' But but who are we punching down at? Who are you punching down at theseays? Who's annoying? You know, no Like I had something on CBS Sunday morning, right? notot long ago And I was I was in Minneapolis airport and I went for lunch and it was this place where you had to seat yourself Order yourself on the screen pay enter all your credit card information And then it asked how much you wanted a tip. And I thought 've done everything here. What would I be tipping And then I saw this woman come and set food in front of somebody And I wrote Then I saw that she was an immigrant And I thought how my parents my grandparents were immigrants, right? And then it went on from there and the Board of Race and Culture at CBS. Uh said I was using my privilege to punch down and call someone an immigrant And I said And then they gave me an opportunity to defend myself And I said immigrant is like pharmacist. that's the word for it. You know, I'm an immigrant in the United Kingdom. I didn't say Filthy immigrant. I didn't say I just said immmigrant and how did I Non she was an immigrant. Oh, I don't know. I mean she was eat the oppiian. You know, and she had an accent. So I figured She must have immigrated to, but I wasn't criticizing her in any way and There's nothing wrong with the word Imigrant You know, and it sat on the shelf there for a year and a half before they aired it to me, that's I didn't understand even the charge like That's not punching down on anybody. I just didn't I Anyway, I was just completely mystified by that I feel that that happens quite often with with writing lately, you know, like another circumstance, like we flag this because you use the word nanny. And it's like, yeah, I know people who are nannies and they identify as nannies. and 's now, I'm not Criticize I'm not making fun of anyone Again, it would be like if I said that Peter was a pharmacist Pot of America is brought you by Armra Colostrum When you prioritize your body's baseline, you're better equipped to show up with focus and energy, no matter what the day holds. 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When you go to smalls dot com slash crook, your life for the cat's life Good answer a good question Smalls dot com slash Crokut That's sixty percent of your first order plus free shipping and free treats for life When you head to smalls dot com slash crout C clearly what you're getting at right? Like there's you know, that that There are people that will say like, you know, it may be the case that one reason Trump is president is because people find the left annoying And peopleople say that's glib and also we have a lot of bigger problems in the world than people being worried about words we use, right? and that this is focusing on the wrong thing and the right is hyping this all up. At the same time though, there does seem to be something where You know, you have a story in the book about what happened when you got bit by a dog and you felt like the audience wasn't on your side because of who owned the dog U and What you say in the essay is that people are worried that they will be perceived as being empathetic enough they'll be worried that they'll be perceived as being kind of Republican. C you just talk about that and what happened there I was bitten by a dog And I was in Portland, Oregon And there were these three people smoking fentanyl and they had two dogs And I was walking down the street and one of the dogs both the dogs rushed forward and one of them bit me and when I people about it I had a show that a show that night and I talked about it. And a woman said, Well, you know, people with an opioid use disorder, lead incredibly difficult lives And they're in no position to take care of their animals. That's the sad part. I might is it Is that And then other people were like, what kind of a dog was it? But everybody acted. if I had said this tech bro had this dog that bit me. They'd be like, Ohh, those people I've had I've had it up to here with those people. But because They were smoking fentanyl, peopleople felt like if they said like, oh, that's awful then they were being H then People might mistake them for a Republican Yeah. But since when did allowing dogs to bite people become a Democrat, I just don't understand that. Well And it's it's the kind of thing and the reason I think' like This gets at something because It's, of course, not a democratic point of principle. and I'm sure there's a subset of people who genuinely feel when you tell that story Oh this is not the issue. you're punching down or you're not being respectful enough of the challenges, et cetera. But I would think most people would say, well, that's terrible and we have a real problem here and that shouldn't have happened. and we need to address the ways in which people don't feel safe on the streets, whatever. And I sometimes feel but I do think a lot of people are afraid to say They're afraid to voice like You know, right now in Los Angeles, about to have a mayor's race, right? And A lot of what the issue is is around how LA has a big unhoused homeless population And At the same time, there's a lot of people that will get angry at a Democratic politician for being say too aggressive at trying to clear homeless en campments, right? When I bet if you polled people, even Democrats would beia seventy thirty, eighty twenty issue, but allowed vocal group of people online are there to tell you that you're being a fascist And I wonder how many of the people telling you What people being afraid to tell you that they think it's terrible that that dog bit you are not saying what they really feel. They're afraid of some sort of like online mob or something You need to get bitten by dog I mean, it's shocking because like I told a guy in my New York building, I got bitten by dog. What did you do And then other people on your side. am I I'm say I'm saying you would be amazed if you get bitten by a dog at how people react. What kind of a dog was it I was Shock Nobody said. Nobody said, Oh, that's awful If you've bitten by a dog, well, like two people dead. But if you talk to fifteen people, two of them would say, oh, that's awful. Was it like a stitchy situation? How bad of a how deep did this wound go? It broke the skin broke the skin. to the pharmacy and she told me to go to the emergency room. And then I just thought that the people who whose dog it was, they were just going to carry on with their day. And I was like, and then I'm going to spend all day in the emergency room. I decided I would rather die than do that. that I would literally rather die than go to the emergency room Another I got a lot of letters about people who've been bitten by dogs This one woman, she was sitting on sofa at a friend's house And she got up and the dog Bit the back of her neck And the owner had to come and pry its jaws open and said, I told you not to make any sudden movements You scared him It's it's a it's a dog thing and it's a drrug addicts dog thing. It's both. And then I uh I got a lot of letters from people and this woman was walking After dark And a man was following her close behind her and she stopped and turned around and said, Can I help you And he said, I'm homeless I want money. and she said, I don't have any money on me. And she kept walking and he kept following her And she turned around and said, lookook, this is making me really uncomfortable And he said, I also take cash out And she said, I don't have cash app And when she told people about it, they all said, you don't have cash app as if that was point of the story, right where again, if she had said If she had said it was a fraternity brother following her, they'd be that's outrageous to be following somebody after dark. But instead They acted like the whole point of the story was that she didn't have cash out It is my job to notice this. No, no, I'm glad you well, it' The thing about it I'd I'm interested in this in part because you know, whatever people's morals around this are and there'll be people that'll say like, oh, you know I David David Sar is becoming an old he's becoming an old conservative. He's getting, you know, conservative in his old age, but Political movement is not honest about how people actually feel. It's doomed to fail, right? Like we have all how do people like Spencer Pratton LA or Donald Trump get purchased? Well they get purchased because if you tell a bunch of people that that that they're wrong to feel a certain way and that the Democrats don't have a good answer for their legitimate frustrations, then they'll go to people with bad answers. And so I do think sometimes like It's like acknowledging that hey, like there's something where we're not We're being a little bit disrespectful for how people feel when they say get bitten by a dog or feel like things in their community don't feel. Safe. Now it is pride Hay Pride. guy you go to the paradees Not aro guy. notot aro guy.' surprising me. never. I'm not a parade person. R. I don't stke as a parade person. You're a walker, though You could walk a parade. That's a nice that's a nice way to get in your steps No? No, it's too slow. Too slow. I mean, I went to that I went to a march the What was that do In New York, the No King No King But you you walking like us You know, you walking like a thirty of a mile per hour So it's not the place to get steps U Is there anything gay you've done for pride to celebrate pride What's the gayest thing you think you've done this month The ggest thing I've done this month My luggage got lost And so I had to go to the Airport United desk in in Denver, Colorado, and the guy said, if we open your suitcase, we find your suitcase and we open it. what is in there that will'll know it's yours? And I said It's a verbery Dop kit. I said plaid But it's not their iconic plaid. I would say gay it's something that I've done in the years. What are you do with a burberry Dop kit? Why do you need a burberry brand doop? No what what is that doing for what happened to you? It Burberry D kit. Oh, it's so pretty. Oh my gosh, it's so pretty. 'cause it doesn't, I don't really like their signature plaid But no thise' too raranded.'s so randed It's just so pretty and I saw it in the window of the store in London And then I went in and I said, Oh, I love that dp kit in the window. And they said, what? And then I said, okay, shaving kit in the window. And they said, that's Not a shaving kit. That's just to carry things around in. But it's a shaving kit. I mean, you know, it has a handle along the side. It's it's waterproof on the inside. It's a shaving kit Anyway? And I love it And you know what? if I lost it, that was when I thought about if I never got my luggage back, That's what I thought. thought my shving kid. Do remember when that a Biden administration official who is non binary was stealing luggage and then putting on the dresses they found inside of the luggage and then taking photographs of themselves in public places with the stolen clothes? We should read that story. It was pretty exciting. The first non binary Biden administration executive was stealing suitcases and then wearing the clothes from inside of the suitcases And wasaz. It got a good look. I mean. It was fantastic Speaking of, now you struggle with the word queer and how the language around being gay has evolved. Have you heard about from people on the road about this that call themselves queer from sort of Gen Z that that use different terms. like whereere are you at now? Be it doesn't backlash for you I love asking people about it I love it. And I find that generally it's a generational thing R? Like a lot of times when I meet young women I say, whereere do you stand on the word lesbian And a lot of them are Just so insulted, I even used that word They reject the word lesbian and they don't want to be put in a box And I said, Well, I'm still putting you in a box, but this one has irritating person writt on the side of it, you know Oh And I find my problem with the word queer, I have two problems, right One, it doesn't tell me anything to It's the third time in my life I've been rebranded And it's just it'll happen to you too when you get older. like People keep changing your name and nobody ever asks you. No one ever asks your opinion. It's like, oh, you're this now And then when people come up to me and say, oh, you're a queer writer, and it's like, no No I don't And again, it doesn't have anything to do with the word forormally being an insult. I appreciate that it's short You know But that's all that I really I appreciate about it. But I love asking people about it And usually the people uh, you know, younger people They like having their own word You know, this is a young word and so they feel like it reflects them. but I feel I guess I don't know You know, a woman came up to me and said, Ohh, you're a queer writer. She said, My daughter's queer. My twelve year old daughter is queer. And I said, how? And she said, she's asexual. I said, Isn't that what you want in a twelve year old Y know I mean, maybe she's just twelve. Yeah Well, that's in a sort of edge case. Well, I remember when I was a I was a speech writer And I struggled with this because on You know, you When I was growing up There was gay and there was straight, and we all kind of bisexual was a joke, right? If a girl was bisexual She was really straight. If a guy was bisexual, he was really gay. And we didn't really talk about trans.'t about we didn't talk about noninor gender wasn't really as much a part of it. And when I became a speech writer I remember watching as we would say, like, you know, we're proud to celebrate gay rights and then It was, Well, you can't just say gay rights, you have to say there's also trans people, and then we started including in speeches LGBT and I remember as a writer feeling offended by LGBT because it felt so Um mechanical. it felt so It felt like it was from a manual. about gay rights. It felt technical as opposed to, you know, we're so proud to have achieved so much for gays and lesbians or the gay community, saying LGBT felt just Ly just felt it had a bad sound, right Um and That to me so then you go to queer and that's meant to be a catch all but I had the same feeling that I think you have, like, wait, this word doesn't feel exactly right. But I wonder how much of that like What is it about the word? doesn't feel it's not just that it was a slur, right? There's something where it's like it it It doesn't feel like it captures who I am And I wouldn't use it, but it is a useful word to have a catch on. And I'm wondering if you've thought about like, what is that feeling, that kind of Because if it was just that it wasn't You have a bad feeling about the word. It's not just that it's not as good as gay. there's you don't want it. So why Well, again, part of it too is that I just feel that it's unspecific. It doesn't tellell me, offtten when I think of queer, I think of somebody who is in a heterosexual relationship, is open to the idea of a three way and has a septum ring And so And that's that's a thing. And so if that's your identity then you can be that's your queer Please. And I'll call you queer and everything But I'm not I'm not here So I'm gay and You can be queer and that's fine. but I don't When the word queer is used on me by well meaning people who think, well, that's the word now, that's the word they like us to use, you know, that person. I Cringe You know, and I don't But again, when you said something earlier as a writer, okay As a writer Yeah, language is what I deal it was what I the tools that I work with So when people say it's just a language thing, Yeah, it's It's what I'm working with, right? Like the New Yorker Uh, like I can't say prostitute and the New Yorker I have to say sex worker To me, a sex worker, like if you lost both your arms in an accident A sex worker would come to your house and teach you how to pleasure yourself by rubbing against a doorf frame. That's a sex worker. R For sure. Yeah yeah then there's a prostitute, you know? I will never write about a prostitute in New Yorker because I don't want to use the word sex worker. I don't like the word. Right, you know and And the same way, if I was in a situation and they said, well you have to use the word queer I would say, okay, well, I won't write anything for you. or I won't write about that. If I know I have to use that word, I don't want the word. I don't want to use it. I don't like the way it sounds. I don't like I don't want to see it on paper. You know, I don't want to So And that's I don't know that that has I don't know if that's an old thing, you know, just from being old or There are it's not like I any new word I don't want anything to do with. I mean, sometimes And there are a lot of them Well because I don't want anything to do with Podsay America brought by fast growing tre Vasparing Trees is Americ's largest online nurery with thousands trees and plants for every space and climate. and they make it easy to get plants that actually work for your yard delivered right to your door Okay, we can sense your skeptism about ordering live vegetation on the internet But the proof is in the plants Fast growing trees as ship plants. They are shipping them again.' using a science. The proof is in the planting. The proof is in the planting plants a free punch upp, right? Pof and the planting Right, Pudding Pro prove in the pudding profves in the pling,amously. huhs. And you'll be puddting down so many beautiful plants Every plant is hand picked It's carefully inspected and the packaging is designed specifically to keep them secure in transit so they don't get damaged. 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Th after a day they're unfolded to their full glory. Great deals on spring planting essentials right now. listeners get an additional twenty percent off their first order with the code Crookut at Checkout. That's twenty percent off at fastgrrowingtrees dot com with code Crookut at Checkout T to getish to supply The sex worker thing is interesting. Because here's what I worry about for. L why am I reluctant? And is it because It's because I don't want to be associated The style of writing that uses words like queer and sex workers that if you're describing a sex worker, it is a kind of there's a kind of Uh, uh performative obtuseness and kind of a performative aggressivism that feels artificial. And so am I rebelling against that artificiality not because the word itself, but because I don't like the way other people use it and the kind of writing and thinking it's associated with You know what I'm saying? Yeah, exxactly. Yeah. A sex worker One college course. Okay is a prostitute who took one course in college I think if you went to the streets and you and someone was offering blow jobs And you say, what do you all to be called I don't know how many people would say sex worker. Yeah. sort of like how I would normally The thing to do would be to say to them, what would you like to be addressing? What would you like to be called Yeah, you know Well as we went through a round of this when people were saying kind of Latinx Yeah And it turned out, you know that's sort of sort of an artificially produced sort of activism based word that wasn't really used outside of those spaces. And then kind of went through a cycle of how people were using that word and then eventually sort of we're not using that word anymore and it wasort like, okay, great. We're back to Latino, Latina. Well, I think about it sort of for me, right? because I identify, I'm gay But at the same time I became comfortable with that at a time when I didn't have another option, right? And I'm now forty three, I am married to a trans person I I choose to call myself gay even though Truthfully, am the word queer probably more appropriately defines what I am, but but I choose to be gay because I think being gay is a choice. Nobody's going take that away from me I Like when I was a you, I remember the word gay. coming into use, right. The the term was homosexual And so I a remember the term gay And maybe because I was een years old. because it fit You know, and so maybe there were people who felt like Gay was unspecific. or you know, they just didn't like the sound of it I mean, homosexual, I'm fine with It's just longer. You know, like for some reason, we just keep making words longer Um H So again, anything one sellable, but and LGBTQ and then it became QQYA and then it was a plus was added. and I agree. it was a lot. Well this is where it's like It's about persuasion too, which is Hey, like, if Nobody who's not paying very close attention is going to master LGBTQ to IA plus, like it's stupid. It's just like at some point We're allowed to have sort of aesthetic judgments. like, I'm sorry but that's stupid. It is stupid to go around saying so many letters in a row and to keep adding new letters it. it's just aesthetically unpleasing. We're allowed to have taste. Right? to You couldn't blame people for making fun of LGBTQQIA plus. you know It funing them. Yeah. it's funny. Yeah U Now on the you've also been advocating for wearing skirts, people about how comfortable skirts are. We are both people that have worn skirts at our live show and become proponents of skirts. What do you think men are afraid of with these skirts I don't wantan to be stared at And I don't want to be A woman And I don't want to have breasts and I don't want to wear makeup But uh skirt just looks good I don't know, half the world wears skirts and they don't make any big deal about it. I mean, I went to Fiji and You know, all the guys are wearing skirts and you go Uh Gee, I mean, again, you go to the Middle East and you see people and basasically dresses. I remember I went to Morocco when I was in high school with my Spanish class And I bought, I don't know what it's called, but it's like a floor length. Rpe, you know And I wore it to high school and I got back And I remember thinking, I look good. and and just being made fun of like so roundly and just rem I just remember thinking like Why is it a big deal? Like why? It's got one hole instead of two. really? And you're going to get that upset about it. T Yeah, I have a bunch of skirts and I'm happy to I don't I don't have mini skirts and stuff el You know, usually they go, you know, to the floor or you know, almost to the floor and I just I just think they look great. I do think that when You know, consonservatives get upset about trans people On some level what they're upset about is the ways in which they're holding on to these s traditional definitions of like the right way to be a man and how small a definition they want for that and As someone that has been publicly gay since you were wrriting long Like you never really came out. You're just gay from the first moment I've heard of you were gay the whole time. You never came out. You never you never had your moment of going on television being like, I'm gay But at the same time, I was lucky enough to come around at a time. I can write about my relationship and People just it's about trying to make a life with another person that the world could see that. the world wasn't like, oh, it's a gay. nevermind. it's not for me because he's gay and that was Uh, you know what if I'd done it ten years earlier than that would have been completely different story. so I would just Fortunate to come along, you know, to So much had happened before I got I arrived, I suppose The reason I bring it up is because it does seem like what's happening now. So Being gay as a sort of an abstract identity, right? Like I'm a gay person, that means I date and want to marry someone of the same gender or whatever U It seems like the part that we're now grappling with is everything around it, like wantanting to wear skirts, being more feminine, right? And defying other aspects of what it means to be a true, like sort of masculine man And I know as I think about What When I was made fun of when I was a kid, right? I was called gay a million times. I was a little bit feminine It was it was it was becoming okay to be gay, but it wasn't okay to be a mining little queen, right? Like And it does seem like right now There's a real kind of pushback from the right about defying the gender norms. like they're okay with a Scott Bescent being the seecretary of the Treasury, but they worry a lot about what happens if say if a man shows up in makeup and a skirt. I wonder how you think about that as somebody that has like, sort of been publicly identified as gay for so long feel I remember Oh When I was young And like I moved, I lived in San Francisco for one summer, right? And I remember it was like a pride parade there in San Francisco and it must have been. It was like summer of nineteen seventy six or something, right But I remember there were drag queens the beginning of the parade. And I remember being embarrassed, you know, and thinking, oh, I don't want people to think that That's what Gay people are likeike, right And now I just Now I I think The opposite. when I see somebody being like a massive like sissy or something, It just warms my heart, you know, and I'm just so happy that they just being in themselves. and I can see how You know, it can make someone uncomfortable because you're not sure you know, like when I'm signing books like you don't know sometimes. You know, how you maybe should address somebody or if somebody gives you a book and then it's got especially like a name like Zia on it, you know? And then Is that Zia? Is Zia somebody else? you know, so I always say who'ia. And then sometimes people are like, I am. And I say, Well, I'm asking because it could be your cousin, it could be, you know, it could be anyone. So I have a nice out that way that you don't necessarily have in day to day. life But I think it just makes people uncomfortable. If I'm wearing a skirt, I don't see any reason for anyone to call me Ma' or she It's just a scured. I don't have any makeup on it the sport coat on and you know, I guess I don't care if they're uncomfortable, I suppose that's a difference. R? But I do think part I'm interested in like, what is that discomfort, right? You'll turn on Fox Ns and there'll be somebody saying like, you know, real men don't sing happappy birthday. realal men don't drink soup, realal men don't have straws, right? Like constraining constraining what it means to be a man to this really, really narrow box. And I wonder how much of that discomfort people feel is in the same way someone, you know, is understands that voting for Trump might be wrong in some way that like They're like, I spent a long time building this prison. Like how dare you How dare you try to escape? like this is where I live. I feel safe here U Well, in a lot of ways, and I think a lot of people would be surprised by that, but I feel sorry for straight guys You know, I feel sorry that they're in their prison. and I feel sorry that Sometimes I feel like They don't know how to talk to people. You know, like if you're listening in conversation on a plane and there are two guys in front of you who, you know, strangers who are talking I just I just feel bad. I feel bad that they don't Again, that their confines are so narrow. Yeah, I had this I remember realizing that I was at that I was a worse friend to my straight friends, my straight male friends because I was less aeminine and what came with being aeminine was being thoughtoughtful You know, asking people about their debt, you know, like there's a there's a way you are with with with There's a way Gameen are that is more feminine and part of it is just being I don't know, thoughtful, considerate, sweet Right? And I was and I remember realizing like, oh, when I'm with my straight male friends, I act more like them And I'm much worse in basically every respect, right? Like I would never think to be like be like If I'm in my st if I'm kind of in that straight mode, you're kind of like You would never be like, so how's your mother doing? Like you know, is she getting better from her fall? Like you wouldn't say anything like that. It just doesn't come up in straight world. I was in an elevator and I was in Atlanta a few weeks ago I'm going down for breakfast and this guy gets on the elevator. And I said, oh, I saw you on my plane last night. I said, I noticed your shoes And such a thing that would be So scary like to a straight guide, right? You you remembered them And be that you were looking at his shoes. You know, what was the reaction? How did it go Well, he was wearing shoes without a back to them. So of course he was gay. All, so it all worked out. Yeah, that sorry I just end up making sure you're talking to another gay man. Positive America is brought to you by Chime Chime is changing the way people bank. They offer the most rewarding fee free banking built for you They're not like traditional old banks that charge you overdrafted monthly fees. They have thousands of fee free ATMs. because why pay to get your own money? Chime is built for you not the one percent Shine members can benefit from up to one thousand one hundred and fifty dollars in annual rewards, fee free B deposit unlocks the most rewarding way to bank in Chime. Chime is rated five stars by USAoday for customer serervice, Real Humans twenty four seven. 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Chime is a FintTech, not a bank. banking services for My pay and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. optional products and services may have fees or charges stated annual percentage yield, and cashback for Chime Pime only No minimum balance required chec accounts ranking based on a JD Power sururvey published october twentieth, twenty five, for more information on APY rates, my pay spot me and travel perks, go to chimeot com lash disclosures. Do you refer to Hugh as your boyfriend? He's your husband. Yeah. rightight Yeah Uh huh Still uncomfortable. I don't like the word. Yes. he's a Man, I'm married Right What's the problem 's husand I don't like the words How did you got married? Yeah Mhm. Just for financial reasons. Right. It was a shotgun wedding arranged by my banker Mhm And I don't want to marry anybody else, you know, It didn't mean anything to me to be married. I didn't up I didn't I don't It was it was just illegal I just got married Any advice for a long and successful Yeah relationship. Yeah, I do. He and I have been together for thirty six years Never talk about your relationship to that other person E N talk about it. never talk about it because just it doesn't bear It doesn't bear that Harsh light of scrutiny. You can talk about it with other people. Right. You can complain about them But don't talk about it with that person Right. It's sort of like talking about happiness. If you're talking about it, you aren't it M. Don't talk about your relationship. That's pretty good. Now I noticed something else In one of these essays, you also are deeply uncomfortable talking about your bowel movements in front of you. Oh my God, no, I've never had one and he's never had one. What is that? What is what so that' the way you're talking about that. Is it about feminine mystique? I dont I don't know what you're talking is, but I notice I definitely feel like there's two kinds of relationships, and I don't think there's a middle ground. There are couples for whom the bathroom is just a room with a sink and a shower. Yeah. And that's it And then there are a couples that are just fully in it about every detail. Yeah I'm in that category. We talk about everything. We go into great detail. and it brings us closer together. Don't want your le like un like how do you know a person? But how can you know a person? A big part of every day, David is the part of the day where you had either a good shit or a bad shit. It's a big I right No. Come on. you know I have no idea what you're talking about You come home from a long trip and Hugh is in a bad mood. He's just a bit upset and you don't know why It might be because he's having stomach trouble But you'll just never know that. You'll never know that he's been he's been, oh, I was sorry. he'd never know that about me But then its But then you're strangers to me There's plenty of other stuff we know. It's nice to have a little window of mystery, you know, like I know people, couples who like fred in front of each other and do No, you're not in front of each other. What are you getting up and going the river happ Come on. What are you never talking about? If somebody has an accident every now and then It is never acknowledged, never mentioned Never, ever, ever, ever. And you know what? I'm really glad because Both of us are like that So if just one person was like that, then it would be pretty hard. Well, I don't think those people make it. I don't think I think that's what divorces. I think it's people finding out that they they're with the wrong person because they want to they want to talk about it and the other person doesn't. It's like, you can't build a life with someone like that Yeah, no, Hgh and I u never been discussed. I don't know what it would be. Now if If far If I get cola colon canancer. Rctal cancer? sureure He will never know I will gohm. see, I will say I have to go to the hospital for a few weeks. Um, I will say Why even tell him that? J I'm going I have a little trip I need to take Well, you know, you get it, you went right to the right went Your mind went to correct I know where your mind went, which is to the fact that you have an aging body as we all do. And youre in one of the stories, you basically are repulsed by the fact that he needs for a time after a hip surgery to have one of those cushy higher toilet seats, which you compare to a coffin You both have human bodies that will slowly fail over time. and the best case scenario is that you're holding someone's hand as they lose control of their body, but you're together in the end. Like there's no avoiding the fact that you have a corpus and it will decay before each other, right? Isn't that the goal? I't see the need to put him on the toilet now to prepare for putting him on the toilet twenty years from now. twentyenty years from now, if I have to do it, I'll do it. But I doubt that. But now all of a sudden at the very end of your relationship, we're gonna finally have to talk about this thing that you've beenviding. We'll never talk about it. We'll never talk about it. We'll never talk about it Never. if if Hughes like in his nineties and he soils himself We will never talk about it. E, ever, ever talk about it Are you thinking about what these look, your document, you know, you've been Writing in your diary Did you write your diary today, y? Yeah You've been writing your diary every day. Do you think about what those last entries are going to be like I think it's easier to to conceive of our death than it is of our decrepitude You know, and the thought of being in an assisted living center in one room Um yourour life reduced to one room like my dad's was and to all your friends are dead. and you're cating in your pants maybe or you're your unable to Get up from your bed I I Being dead, I can think, sure, yeah, but that is just to know that that's coming or to think So Hugh and I, we were going to throw ourselves off the terrace. you know, of our apartment building But then he didn't want to make a mess. And so we're going to put ourselves in body bags first and then throw ourselves That is considerate. That is considerate. You know, you got to, I would say double rarap it because who knows what kind of splat that, you know, you're going to make a lot of impact. And then boom, you're coming out the sides. I spent ten days at the medical examiner's office in Phoenix. so I know I know what it looks like and I know that's why you're right. Double body bags is a really good idea So something good came out of this conversation. Well, here's the thing I would say too, Isn't a part of you like ready? you will have an interesting perspective on what it's like Um to slowly decline in one room as all your friends die. Isn't that the finaln' arerenn't those the stories sort of we need you to write because it'll be helpful to other people that are going through it? Isn't there something beautiful like about getting Getting that last experience, which is so common for people. Yeah, I think the thing is th Calvin Tompkins died recently, the art critic for the New Yorker And he was was he a hundred or was he two is that you can his eyes were really failing him at the end. So you could be in a situation where you couldn't write. You know, when you're really sick, You can't sit up You know, like if you were So it's a nice idea that you could write until the day you die. You have no control over it, you know? So maybe if G, if Hugh's mother Right huge reader I've never known anyone who reads more than and Now she can't read and she's ninety five And she's just sort of parked in front of a TV. her worst nightmare. and she can't read a book and even if you gave her an audio book, she can't focus on anything. So Again, I don' I don't necessarily have control. I'd like to be able to write until the end of my life, even And I don't mean that to write in order to put a book out, but just, you know, I've done it every single day of my life for the last fifty years. So I don't know who I would be without it reggardless of it being published or not don't know How I would how I wouldn't Kn who I am, I suppose. H. So I said maybe it's the kind of thing where You wait for the the kind of double wrapped phase can you can age into decrepitude, but then when you finally can't write, then you do the double backing, right? mayay be sort of let's sort ofold off. let's put a pin in the double bgking unt But I think it's unfair and I think it's unfair that you can't Un insurance policy, your life insurance won't pay off. If you if you kill yourself I mean, I understand the problems with changing that, but I just don't think it's fair to expect people to put up with that amount of misery and u you know, like if you're can in your pants and somebody clean you up and then you're just like, Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. and you're not even having a good time. You know, like the the rest of your days it can not could be any better than I don't see why you shouldn't be able to kill yourself. have this idea for Canyon dayay. And it's you put logs you You put logs around the Grand Canyon, right? just along the lip of the Grand Canyon. You take people there at night And then so if they trip over a log and fall into the Grand Canyon So it's like way it go. So it's like a little loophole Yeah where it it's called like so so to get to get the insurance to pay out that it's just a lot of people tripping on the Grand Canyon. It would be called Canyon Day. And then if right wanted to participate in Canyon Day, you would be allowed to Well, I think that's a great idea. I'm not sure the insurance companies are going to catch wise to it pretty quickly. suuddenly, hey, we've seen a huge uptake in accidental deaths on the Arizona side of the Grand Canyon. but hey It' great It's a great thought. You know, I shared it with somebody and they said, What if you don't die? Don't you hate people like that Never pretty long fall. I know it. There's no way you're pllus you're going to be decrapid to begin with. like, you know Saying that, what if you don't die? You're gonna die. You're gonna die That's not the problem with listen, I want you know something. There's a lot of problems with that plan. That's not That's not one of them. It's a big fall down there. It's a big canon. It's Grant. It's Grant. That's why they named the burger after it. Before we let you go. I want to give just a rapid fire a few things. seeee where your head's at. People saying no problem instead of you're welcome doesnn't bother me Really? Yeah, but you don't like perfect when people say perfect perfect I was at a hotel the other day and I And the woman said, perfect F times before I even sat down at the table And they're told in hotels like if you say wonderful or terrific, that's not positive enough. S you have to say perfect But no problem. I know people who are bothered by no problem It doesn't I know people too who are bothered by, of course. Could I have another coffee? Of course And there are people who don't like, of course. I have no problem with it emojis. I used one one time. Is an eggplants? No, it was it was to Hugh's sister and I don't remember what it was. I don't like to text College professors assigning fewer books and more excerpts because their students have lower attention spans U Gosh That makes me sad You know Um But that said, if I were in college and then I had to read Mobby Dick by tomorrow, I'd be like, Fuck, I gotta read Mobby Dick by tomorrow. You can skip the wailing chapters Yeah, that's the key thing with reading M moobie Dck. Pe need to know that. There's a lot of whaling chapters in there with detailed information about the technique. You don't need those chapters. Well, I wrote something one time about I was writing for Esquire and they did an issue what every man should do before the age of whatever. And so I said, Read Moby Dick. So I started reading it and I was like, oh no This is really boring. It's so boring. So I told myself so boring. I could not shave, brush my teeth, take a shower or wash my hair until I finished it And then on the second day, I helped the neighbor clean out her chicken coop. And so, you know, I had those little mites all over me And but I couldn't take a shower. I couldn't do anything. I had to read Mubby Deck first Um, There's an audiobook version of Moby Dick read by Burt Reynolds It seems like he was done he had to do it at gunpoints or something. And really's atrocious. Its I highly recommend goo find it. He does sailor's accents, but he can't maintain us. So it like you hit plan this thing and it's Burt Reynolds being like, call me Ismail. But But by the end of every chapter, he's kind of back into classic Burt Reynolds, and then the next chapter begins and it's back with the whale was out there. you know, he does a voice. It's crazy. It's crazy. And he doesn't do any of the whaling chapters so you can just it it's a braz He's writing it down. That' good. That's it We got a lot of good ideas out of this session. Really happy about that. Last thing, do you hold grudges? Yeah I do Yeah, I do necessarily act on them, but my brother said a couple of weeks ago, I saw my brother And we were talking about cleaning And he said, manan, you got to be You know, I got to be mad to clean Whenever I start cleaning go back to my grudge drawer and I pull something out and it just fuels me when I clean.'s like feeding the steam engine while I clean And then I finish and I'm fine. What's your oldest grge right now Miss uh miss. Arsonu nineteen sixty eight Ice cream creations. afterfter a christening, we went to ice cream creations, peopleople from the church, Greeg Orthodox Church in Raleigh North Carolina. And I was sitting there with my mom, having a lovely time And Mrs. Arsanu came and said, you go over there and sit with the boys twelve year old boy should be sitt with his mother. I was having such a nice time with my mother and And I thought, what business is it of yours where I sit You know what I mean? Like my mother wasn't complaining about having me there And my you know, my mother's dad I think she robbed me. Mrs. Arsenu robbed me like an extra half hour with my mother. And no one back there said, bitch. D you telling me where to sit like nobody would have done You just did what she said I just did what she said and I think about it. I've held a grudge since then. and she's long dead For sure. But I u That's probably my oldest grudge And see now, the kids would talk back somethinghing that you find repulsive because the kids aren't listening to their parents anymore. But that was a case where had you talked back to your teacher, you might have had more time with your mother There was a guy in my high school who art We had a math teacher. and he was He was also a coach and He was a dick And he was chewing out this student, this female student and she started crying. And he kept at it And this guy in the class stood up. and said You need to back off to the teacher and nobody did things like that. And he got in so much trouble It was somebody needed to do it And I'm so Proud because he was gay. There's no way, I mean, it wasn't talked about back then, but there's no way this guy wasn't gay And I thought about it over the years and I thought, wow, it is a gay person. I mean, it wasn't this gay person, but it was a gay person. And he wasn't he didn't threaten the teacher or anything. He did it in really the perfect way. and think about that He's probably forgotten about it this guy. Gee, it was such a It was huge to me. I think about it Quite often David Aarris. Thank you so much for being here. everybody Latest collection of essays, David Sederis, the land, and its people. Thanks for coming by. Good to meet you. G good to talk to you. Oh, you too. Thankks so much Thank you, David Sederres for joining us. John, Tommy and I will be back in your feeds on Tuesday morning and Pods of America is C crickkedia production Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, Mackenna Roberts, and Ferr Sfari with Reee Jerling, Eliah Coh, and Adrian Hill. O team includes Matt to Grot, Ben Hef Co, Jordan Canter, Charlotte Landas, Kary Kellelvve, David Toles, Mia Kman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Single. Ouraff is proudly unionized with the Witerss Guild of America East