Closing Thoughts on Political Engagement

Pod Save America brought to you by Simply Save. If you're anything like us, you're not very handy. Pay. Hey, simply. Wow, level insulting to me. Uh, so the idea of drilling into your walls not John, I don't think John I mean, I'm handy. I am handy, believe I know it doesn't fit my personality. You'd think I wouldn't be, but I actually love fixing stuff. I fix stuff around the house all the time. So maybe the idea of drilling into your walls to secure your house might be a non-starter for you. But Simply Safe's hardware is literally peeling sick. If you can navigate a smartphone map, you can set up an arm your Simply Safe system in less time than an episode of Pod Save America. That's true. I set up a Simply Safe. Andy you don't need to be handy to do it, you can just stick them on the f<unk>ing walls. Beautiful. Simply say. Customize the system right for your home at simply safe.com and it's ship straight to your door in a few days with ab guided setup and no drilling required. You can install an armure system in under an hour, no need to wait around for a technician appointment. It's not just a camera, it's a comprehensive ecosystem of sensors, cameras, twenty-four-seven professional monitoring. In the event of a break in fire or flood, simply safe agents are ready to take action. There's no long term contracts or hidden cancellation fees. Simply Safe earns your business by keeping you safe, not by trapping you in a contract. Get twenty four seven monitoring for a fraction of what the traditional brands charge. I it's so easy. I set up myself. It's a frictionless process of buying it, receiving it, setting it up. You can do it very easily. And you can customize your system online, ships right to your door. And you it just it's very intuitive, both setting it up and using the app and the customer support. We've partnered with Simply Safe. to offer an exclusive discount to our listeners. Right now, you can get fifty percent off your new system by visiting SimplySafe.com slash crooked. That's half off at simply safe.com slash crooked. There is no safe like simply safe. Welcome to Pod Save America, I'm John Favreau. This Sunday, Hassan Piker, someone I'm sure no one has a strong opinion about. Hasan stopped by the studio to talk about his move into electoral politics. He recently hit the campaign trail to stump for Abdul El Syed in Michigan. And to talk about, well, everything you've seen in the news about him lately. We ended up talking about the many statements he's made that have sparked a discussion inside the Democratic Party about whether candidates should associate themselves with him and his audience. We also debated his views on Israel and Hamas, how he thinks about the words he chooses. in his theory of political organizing. It's a conversation you need to hear for yourself, so we will get right into it. But before we do Please consider becoming a Cricket Media subscriber if you haven't already, so that you don't miss out on any of the great content we're putting out for our friends of the pod. Subscribers get our new extra episode of Pod Save America called Pod Save America Only Friends, other subscriber only shows like Puller Coaster with Dan Pfeiffer, access to all of our excellent sub stack newsletters like Pod Save America open tabs, add free episodes of all your favorite crooked pods. And you get to feel good about supporting one of the few independent, proudly pro-democracy media outlets left in Trump's America. So head to crooked.com slash friends and subscribe. Here's the soundpiker. Welcome back to the show. It's good to be back. You've somehow become the most uh argued about figure in democratic politics over the last few weeks. So uh I'd like to have a conversation about why that is. That is uh Hopefully more nuanced and useful than much of the discourse. Yeah. I mean I I goes to show how serious we are as a movement, uh, as as an opposition party, that that's this is the primary focus. Central to the discourse. Yeah. Just a quick recap to set the table for people who um Lucky for them, maybe, uh haven't been following along. A few weeks ago, uh, Third Way centrist democratic think tank published a Wall Street Journal op ed calling on Democrats to stop engaging with you. Uh they describe you as anti-American, anti-woman, anti-Western, and anti-Semitic. Uh, their evidence is a long list of things you've said, which we'll get into. They also specifically single out a few Democrats, us for inviting you to CrookedCon last year, Rokana. And uh Michigan Senate candidate Abdul El Said, also a former cricket host who a few of us have donated to and who you campaigned with this week, which fueled even more controversy. Uh now. You and I scheduled this conversation. Weeks ago? I'm sure some people have had enough, uh, Hassan Piker discourse. But I do think it's an important conversation to have because like Even though you and I have different politics, we've actually debated our disagreements on the show. Uh, I think there's value in doing that in person in a format that's not mediated by algorithms or a fucking five minute cable hit. Um, so with all that said. Here's where I wanna start. I think the ralli with Abdul this week were the first time You've been A featured speaker. At a candidate's actual campaign event. And I wonder how you self-proclaimed Marxist, anti imperialist, uh decided to be a campaign surrogate for a democratic candidate, even one as progressive as Abdul. What was your thinking there and like what has made you get more involved in Democratic politics. Um, so I've been uh very involved in democratic politics for years at this point, um, but with AOC Bernie Sanders Uh and you know, Rashida Talib, Ilhan Omar, who I'll be interviewing later today. I've never actively, I guess, stumped for a candidate. And I never I didn't even realize maybe I'm too like uh I'm not old school enough to understand this, but For me, the difference between Abdul coming on my stream, which I've done many times prior to this, and me like going to Dearborn and w us working out together and eating kebabs. um is is probably more significant than me going on a rally and and like talking for five minutes in front of a live audience. Uh so I never thought of that as like this major new step. Uh, I guess it is 'cause uh the DC bubble was like freaking out about it, where they're like, How dare you do this? This is the most devastating thing anyone's ever done. Um And and I like the guy. There's that's the reason why I did this. Like I trust him. I think he has a lot of great policy uh opinions. I I think he is much more responsive to the needs of the base than some of the other Democrats that I've been very upset with for many, many years. And I think he's exactly the type of guy that uh the party needs to have more of. My goal's been very clear since Zorron, uh, when when we linked up during the primary, it was a very crowded field and and he was able to like cut through that noise and become a beloved mayor of New York now. Um I I want to people into positions of power that uh I align with politically, even if we don't one hundred percent agree. I even have disagreements with Zoran from time to time. I'll text them some stuff. I'll be like, yo Cut this out. What are you doing? Uh um, but Uh at the end of the day, I understand that like politics is in some ways the art of the possible, right? Like I and I see that. I'm not My expectation is never going to be someone uh uh coming out and and advocating to seize the means of production. I'm a reformist many uh to my left, which does exist, for those of you out there, there are people who are uh further to the left than me who will say, uh Elections, bourgeois elections are unnecessary and all you're doing is taking away revolutionary potential and feeding it back into the Democratic Party you're a shepherd, uh for the the Democrats and and therefore a reactionary, a social fascist even. Um All of that stuff is gonna break the brains of your audience. I'm not even I shouldn't even be getting into that. I I I I I think if someone wants to to improve the material conditions of the working class in this country, if someone says no to unnecessary, like endless wars and and advocates to to bring our productive output back home to work on ourselves In some ways not a dissimilar message to the lie that MAGA told about isolationism and, you know, no new wars and being the peace president. If someone actually identifies with that. and and wants to advance that agenda, I'm gonna be there for them. Just to broaden it out, 'cause I do think It's useful. People who don't know. And are now wondering, like, what's he up to? What does he want? Like, what is your theory of political change. Like how do we get from where we are now. What is the mechanism to get from where we are now to the the world that you want to live in? Oh, um, great question. So I am a firm believer that one of the biggest issues in the United States of America, which is the heart of empire, one of the most capitalist countries, is a proto capitalist country before capitalism and industrial revolution even happen, uh, is uh is is the idea that most people do not have class consciousness. Most Americans don't understand that they're a working class and that there are people who who generate most of their revenue, most of their net worth off of capital accumulation. the overwhelming majority of Americans, and the ninety nine percent as Bernie likes to call it. Um They don't do that. They get a regular wage. They're not business owners. Or even if they're business owners, they oftentimes operate their own business. So like the overwhelming amount of money that they're making that they're putting in their pocket is coming from their own labor. Uh and they don't identify with that at all. uh they're they are uh hopped up on American exceptionalism, American individualism. So my goal is to to instill class consciousness in people and help them identify what would be more um like help them identify who is actually causing harm to them. And in my assessment, it's the billionaires and the corporations who actually control the levers of power in this country and not the vulnerable populations, the marginalized communities that the Republicans very effectively take people's frustrations and redirect them towards. Um It's not a trans person or a Guatemalan migrant that's like raising your rent. It's your landlord. It's not uh a trans person or or a a Mexican undocumented immigrant that's working in a field that is responsible for why your your uh grocery prices are going up. That's you know, yeah, that's that's Greedflation. And and corporate consolidation that's at at the heart of that issue. And when you think about your own show and your own audience, like, what do you think actually changes people's minds. Like what has worked for you? I mean talking to them and explaining to them exactly what I'm explaining right now, which is that I mean I I had this conversation with the Ovon where I felt like You know, a light switch came on in his mind when we were having this back and forth when I said exactly this thing about, you know, it's it's not a Trans person that's like hurting you at all. But the isn't it weird that the Republicans are constantly angling it in that direction and never really talking about big corporations and and, you know, big pharma and and all of these capital owners, all these very powerful people that that basically run the show. in an almost uh bipartisan manner. Um and and when I have that conversation with a lot of regular Americans, ordinary Americans that haven't put a lot of thought into it, they go, Wait a minute, that does kind of make sense. Yeah. I feel like that's not only do I think that that's true, but I also feel like it's a very effective way to to Try unlock people's uh class consciousness. Yeah. And sort of build coalitions of people who are who are different. Um You have over three million followers on Twitch, uh one point seven five million on YouTube. I saw that you've done something like twenty thousand hours of live streaming that is all off the cuff political takes and responding to viewers in real time, which I imagine must be like constantly Fighting with people in your mentions. Real time. Yes. No, exactly. I mean, so so like I am not surprised that you've said some Stupid and offensive things. Mm-hmm. I'm even less surprised that you've said stuff that sounds even worse when it's clipped out of context. Um Here's what I'm wondering. As you've grown your audience and influence and as you've gotten more directly involved in electoral politics, do you feel a responsibility to Choose your words. more carefully or at least in ways that are less likely to be misconstrued. Yes and no. So Yes, because obviously uh I don't wanna to to cause any harm to any of the candidates that I'm associating with or this movement that I am uh obviously a part of. What I like to call the left flank candidates or the Bernie Krats. Yeah um people who are more responsive to the needs of the uh to the uh working class folks all around the country. Um, I don't I don't want to ever be a burden to them. 'Cause Uh being associated with them. is not beneficial for me. The way that DC media uh perceives the situation is like, Oh my God, he went on he went out to stump for Abdul. All of a sudden he's like a legitimate political force. I'm like been doing that already. Like I was infinitely more effective sitting at home and just talking shit. Yeah. Right. Um, than than I am sitting in front of a live audience with like six hundred people. Um, although that's still good. It's and I and I enjoy it personally, but like and I do that for candidates that I trust, candidates that I uh want to endorse and fight for. Um, but I'm already fundraising for a lot of these folks, right? Uh small dollar donations from all around the country uh keep flooding into all the campaigns that I work with. Yeah, I I I I am cognizant of that. On the other hand thinking about is, well, this medium lends itself so perfectly. Two. uh being clipped out of context. And I think we are now in a media environment where that doesn't matter as much. I mean, Donald Trump's the president, right? Like he is the president. It's not just his words that are messed up that that galvanize some of the most reactionary forces in this country and normalize some of the most heinous. most toxic, repulsive types of politics. He ran on campaign on saying Haitians are eating cats and dogs. Like that's unbelievable. That's white supremacy through and through. And he won. So on the one hand, uh I I think that we are now i existing in a very different media environment than the one that like MS now New York Times and and CNN uh want to exist in. I think that that kind of stuff is over. Like you're a vulgar person as an independent content creator. I think most people don't care about that. Most people care about like who you are and what your values are and what you represent. And I've been able to uh withstand these kinds of smear campaigns uh on the even the independent side far before Uh I I ever uh drew the ire of R N C research department. So and as a matter of fact, they're using uh a lot of the same clips that I've had to uh deal with that are circulating uh on the internet anyway. So it's not It doesn't bother me that much. It doesn't do anything to my audience. My audience knows what I stand for. They're listening to me for eight hours a day. They know exactly what my values are. I'm sure it it might stop some people or maybe cause them to second guess, uh, whether or not they want to be charitable to what I have to say. And that's a problem. But at the end of the day. Most people that see that stuff go, Wait a minute. I have the capacity to I have free will. I can I have the capacity to think. Critically, what's going on here? Why is the Republican Party saying this, claiming that this guy is is racist or claiming that this guy's a misogynist? When I know what the Republican Party stands for, let me go check him out. And I think a lot of people do that. And then they check me out and then they realize, Oh, they were just lying. Like it's that simple. And I and I have experienced this myself and have thought about it over the last couple of weeks 'cause I'm like If I had not if I did not know you, if I hadn't interviewed you before, if I hadn't like been m familiarized myself with your Content. Which I came to probably later than most. Um and I just read the coverage of the last couple of weeks. I would be like, Oh yeah, he's a fucking asshole. Yeah. Um To to be fair, I am. I am a but you're an asshole in I think in different ways than uh you are being portrayed. Yeah. I'm an asshole to bullies. Like I bully bullies. I I'm an asshole to reactionaries across the board. I'm an asshole to Nazis. It doesn't matter to me. If you're right wing, if you're a Nazi, if you're a reactionary I'm not gonna be nice to you. And I don't think we should be nice to them. They're not nice to us. They're not nice to to to random uninitiated people. They're they're not nice to entire swaths of the population. So yeah, if you that's your ideology, if that's your worldview, I find that to be very damaging. I find that to be very toxic. I find that to be violent and dangerous. I'm gonna fight back. I'm gonna use some mean words every now and then. Yeah. Well and I it's it's less the mean words, right? Because like at least for me, 'cause I'm I I was looking through the the hit list, which I wanna get into here. Alright. Or at least some of them. Um, because there's some where I'm like that was clearly taken out of context, whatever. There's some where I think like the underlying point is still worth debating or talking about. So the one I've seen just about everywhere is I think this is the most common one is your comment that America deserved nine eleven. Yeah. Which you watch back in twenty nineteen by calling it inappropriate, a poor attempt at satire. and said that you meant America the government, not Americans as people. But Do you still think that America as a country deserve nine eleven? Because Saying America or any country deserve to be attacked to me is different than saying you understand why they were attacked and what actions might have contributed to that attack. Like I get I get the blowback argument. Yeah, yeah. But that is different than deser deserved is like a more of a normative kind of Yeah, that was me uh responding to Daniel Crenshaw, ironically enough, on the Joe Rogan experience where he was making this ridiculous argument that like Uh, you know, we we have to go out and fight these people all the time because they hate us because they ain't us. And I was like, that's insane. That's not the reason. Like And and this was actually echoed by Robert Kagan, one of the godfathers of of neo conservatism. uh just last week, where he came out and was like, Yeah, actually we have been messing around in the Middle East for, you know, upwards of sixty years. And that's precisely the reason why happened. And that's precisely the reason why these guys say death to America in Iran, for example. So like That was exactly the the same sentiment that I've addressed a million times over. Um, but of course in this moment it was uh it know it was a heated response, uh an im uh an impassioned response. Uh and and uh people will consistently use that against me over and over again. Some people hear that and they think, I understand exactly what's going on here. Some people hear that and go, How heinous. Oh, my stars and garters. I I am clutching my pearls. I don't even want to learn what this is about. I don't want to understand what he's saying. His name is Asan. He must be Al Qaeda. I mean you also can like Bring it to the present because like I have a very real fear right now that because of what Donald Trump has done in Iran. He has increased the risk of terror attacks on Americans. Broad and maybe even here. And God forbid. one of those happens, we will know that it it could be a result of, or at least contr Donald Trump will have contributed to that. It's like impossible not to recognize it at this point. Yeah. And it's very easy at that point for me to say, Oh, now we know what led to that versus Yeah, you know what, we deserved it. Like I wouldn't say that. Yeah. But I would say like I understand that civilians don't civilians don't deserve to die. I mean I'm I'm anti civilian murder. I'm anti civilian death. That's like one of my one of my first principles is that I'm I'm anti imperialist. I'm anti war. For that reason, 'cause I don't want civilians to die. I don't want random people to die. I don't even want people to to go out and and and uh die in the process of trying to kill people. Hot Save America is brought to you by Willie's Remedy. Two questions for you, Lovett. How does Willie's make you feel? And how is that different from other cannabis products or alcohol? I'm a huge fan of Willie's. It's just it's very light. I get the they they have uh two versions or at least two versions of it. One you can get like a a there's ten milligrams per shot or five milligrams per shot. I get the five milligrams per shot because I like to have just a little bit. I'm a bit of a lightweight. You just have a little bit and it's just It's my favorite. Kind of. edible I've I ever had. It's just like really nice. Like You know, on a Friday, you just take a little you're not chill out. really great. Yeah. You know what if you're not going out, maybe you grab the ten. Yeah, why not? Why not? We actually are gonna have a cocktail Uh, I think with Willie's at the wedding. Ooh. Interesting. Interesting. Wow. And you're not gonna tell The guests. No, no. Well, just a big glass for my father and then everybody else can get what's left. Willie's is a premium THC infused social tonic crafted by the legendary Willie Nelson. It's a low calorie, low sugar alcohol alternative that actually works, delivering a fast acting, euphoric social buzz without the regrets that come with alcohol. Boy, do we have them. Willie's social tonics come in five milligrams and ten milligram doses, as Lovett said, with a best in class flavor experience so smooth and balanced, you barely realize you're drinking a THC product at all. You can enjoy the tonics as a shot, sipped over ice, or Mixed into your favorite mocktail. Willie's is not that feared edible you ate too much of in college or after college, or just just up until a couple of days ago. Each bottle of Willie's is third party lab tested for accurate dosage. So you can trust and customize your experience. Willie's unique blend of THC, CBD, CBG, and L theanine delivers a feeling of calm, clarity, euphoria, and relaxation. One shot of Willie's helps you relax, unwind, and de-stress. Perfect for taking the edge off at the end of a long day or socializing with friends. Willie's offers the kind of feeling that makes good company even better. Willie sold out three times in the first six months with over fifty thousand plus happy customers, and they just restocked. Willie ships directly to your doorstep in 40 plus states. Order now at drinkwillie's.com and use code Crooked for twenty percent off your first order and free shipping on orders over $95. And enjoy life in the high country. This podcast is brought to you by USA for UNHCR. With conflict spreading and global uncertainty rising, the world is at a critical moment for fleeing families. Refugee numbers have hit a record high, yet the lifeline they rely on is disappearing. Over one billion dollars in funding cuts are forcing UNHCR to make the impossible choice of who receives help. Sick children are being denied clean water. And the elderly are losing access to life saving medical care. Families are being pushed into overcrowded camps where cholera is rampant, while survivors of sexual violence are left without critical support services. Your donation to the UN Refugee Agency can rush emergency aid to those in need. Once a donation is made, relief can reach refugees within 72 hours of an emergency. The UN Refugee Agency has operations in over 130 countries worldwide and over 70 years of experience protecting refugees. This UN Refugee Giving Day, join a life saving movement. Every gift is matched. Double your impact for families. Donate at UNRfugees.org slash podsave to help save lives. Your donation will be matched. Help the millions of displaced people around the world this giving day. Donate at UNrefugees.org slash podsave. I do I wanna stay in the theme of of violence just for a minute because I think it connects to another comment of yours that's been circulating. This is one from January. Hamas is a thousand times better than a fascist settler colonial apartheid state of the year. I stand by that. I will say this is the one that bothered me most when I first heard it. And I remember I remember having a reaction to it when I first saw it in January. Because I think even if you believe what happened in Gaza is genocide and what's happening in the West Bank is apartheid. Mm-hmm. Those are different claims from Hamas is a thousand times better. Cause like Hamas is an organization that has massacred, raped kidnap civilians on October 7th. They've also been catastrophic for Palestinians by almost every measure. They governance, corruption, they made choices they knew would result in mass civilian death of their own people. So my question is when you say Hamas is a thousand times better. You actually mean that? Or is that a rhetorical move or like a solidarity signal? Like what what I mean, it's all of the above. Uh, I do mean it. Uh I think it's a rhetorical move because it frustrates a lot of people. I've also said I'm a harm reduction voter, I'm a lesser evil voter, and therefore I would vote for Hamas over Israel every single time because Um I'm looking at the situation as uh as as uh a a paramilitary organization that has like a political party as well, a Politburo as well, that is entirely comprised not as an alien force, but of orphaned children that have Had their parents killed. by an apartheid state that has been dominating the lives of of Palestinians. For eighty years at this point. And if they they've done a genocide at this point as well, but like it started off with the NACPA and and has only evolved as technology has gotten better to to become more heinous. Uh and and Gaza is this hermetically sealed area that many people correctly point to as the world's largest open air prison before October seventh. So uh my my perspective on this has always been that I I think that Hamas' tactics, which I oppose at times, right? Uh or or it's like internal governance issues. are are secondary to this conversation because They' It's it's like uh uh placing a lot of emphasis on the Nat Turner uh rebellion or or uh instead of talking about the the much larger, much more consequential, much uh bigger harm that, you know, chadel slavery was. uh to to black people, to like sell black people and to to rape them and uh and and treat them as though they weren't human. I think that's a far larger Systemic force that Is is going to be in is going to make the Natural Rebellion look inconsequential in comparison to the Greater Harm. Same with uh, for example, the the ANC. The ANC had a militant wing called the MK. I'm not gonna try to even attempt to say it. And you know, Nelson Mandela went to prison and was uh uh was imprisoned by the the apartheid state. And MK and ANC did a lot of stuff to collaborators. The collaborators that are worked uh alongside the apartheid uh administration. They would uh they had a practice called uh um necklacing. tire around the necks of collaborators and light it on fire was heinous practice. Um, and it was of course condemned after the fact, but none of the people that were engaged in it, if I recall correctly, even in the Truth and Reconciliation Committee were actually uh legally charged for it. Because there's this understanding when we look back at like some of the more heinous things that resistance groups have done and militancies have done. uh we match that up against the far larger, far broader systematic violence that uh an entire people have been subjected to. And it makes me feel silly to consistently uh, you know, talk about What Hamas has done. Um, especially when there has been an October seven times a thousand, if not more than a thousand at this point. in the hands of Israel against the Palestinian population in its entirety. I mean, they're doing an October seventh to Lebanon right now as we speak. Just take it from the Palestinian perspective. Yeah. Don't you think uh Hamas's decision to attack on October seventh and to massacre civilians on October seventh was a catastrophic mistake for them. For for the Palestinian people. Like do you think the Palestinian people are in any way better off than they were before October seventh? No, of course not. But at the end of the day, I'm I'm that's why I'm asking it's more for me like a s like a Resistance movements, wherever they are. need to come up with strategies. Right. And I think I guess my view is, and I understand that there is a Power and balance here. I think that resistance movements that um engage in You know, mass slaughter. or or civilian targeting and all that like they just have less success than civil than than resistance movements that are um nonviolent. I mean it's obviously in history. Oh I know we've we've had a revolution here. I get it. I wouldn't agree. I get our revolution. Yeah. But yeah. But that but I do think if you look back over the last hundred years, nonviolent movements have been more successful than armed resistance movements. That's just a hand. But uh I think it was It might have been Kwame Torre who said it. Uh You know, you can only you can only shame someone who has a conscience. And if your enemy ha d has none, it's impossible to to get them to to react to your civil movement 'cause Uh the Palestinians have tried. uh civil movements. I mean the great march of return, uh where you know hundreds of Palestinians were sniped directiv uh directly by the Israeli occupation forces. And they openly celebrated that too. They said we have uh an accounting of every single bullet. uh that that we shot at the Palestinians and then they had to delete that. Um, I mean, this is just the tip of the iceberg as far as the war crimes galore that we're talking about because even the the everyday maintenance of apartheid. Israel is is an incredibly violent endeavor. It you that maintenance requires you to constantly be a military force that is ever present, that is dominating and and ritualistically humiliating and and subjugating millions of people. So My perspective is always looking at this from the per from from the the perspective of the people that are being dominated, rather than uh placing a lot of the emphasis on on structural violence or rather uh on state backed violence, which we have a predisposition to lean into no matter what. Um someone fights back against the cop, the automatic suspicion is, well, the police are actually maintaining law and order, so it must be a criminal. That might not always be the case. So I like to look at this stuff uh with a more open minded framework where I can try to figure out exactly what led to uh uh a a day like October seven that was uh was unbelievably violent, right? Um and I think it's it's pretty clear. Seventy five years at that point of ethnic cleansing and apartheid and And you know, subjugation was was uh a big part of the driving force. And as far as Hamas goes, we oftentimes talk about just Hamas. It's almost like a catch all term. Hamas is only one component of the Palestinian resistance. The Alaksa flood was actually conducted not only by Hamas, but Palestinian Islamic jihad's own militant forces, uh PFLP, DFLP, and numerous other, even including uh Fata uh militias as well that still existed in in Gaza. So this was Uh, this was a military operation initially that was was uh conducted by virtually every single active organization inside of Gaza. Um so it's not that's why I always say like Hamas not an alien entity in the way that we think about them or we say, Oh they are uh there are these like evil oppressors of the Palestinian people. Are there disagreements within the Palestinian uh coalition against Hamas's governance? Absolutely. No people are a monolith. Only the only thing that every single Palestinian, with the exception of those who work for like the Atlantic Council or whatever, uh that are there to just, you know, uh do regime propaganda, do Israel uh propaganda, with the exception of those people, every Palestinian I've ever talked to, Christian Palestinians who might even have major disagreements with Hamas. who might even be critical of Hamas will always say the number one thing that we want is the end to the occupation, is the end to the apartheid. The number one thing we want is dignity and sovereignty. And that is What Hamas has been trying to achieve militarily. The message that you just uh that the Palestinians wanted. And to the occupation. Dignity, self-determination. Yeah. For people who are not as familiar with the issue as you. And but that you wanna reach and that you wanna 'cause I I assume the purpose here is to build a movement. Um that supports Palestinian self determination. And If I was someone who didn't know a lot about it. and I knew that Hamas committed October seventh. And then I heard a message that um uh Hamas is better than Israel. Um I would be less receptive to the person delivering that message than I would someone saying Um Look what Israel has done and what the Palestinian people really want. Um, aside from this uh organization that is serving them poorly is most Palestinians just want dignity and they want an end to the impression. Like I would feel Okay, I could I could get behind that and I'm gonna be more attractive to that message. I have a policy of saying the truth. unconditionally and and standing by my principles, even if uh that's sometimes hard to hear. precisely what I did after October seven on October eighth when I went live and and talked about the the uh systematic forces that have led to October seven. And a lot of people were not receptive to that message at all. And some of which actually became haters of mine and and left the community where I I lost uh a a third of my entire community for like The first year. of of uh Israel's maximum violence, Israel's uh a genocide. Where people simply did not want to hear that message at all. I know And I knew back then that as long as I say the truth. that one, Hish will vindicate me, and two As long as I say the truth. There will always be people who are more charitable and more receptive to that regardless. Cause I I see no reason in in sheltering people from that perspective. Do I obviously manage in a in a much longer format, in a much longer conversation like the one that we're having? Um, yes, I am uh uh obviously more capable of explaining that position. But I think Saying what I said there that uh Hamas a thousand is better than Israel cuts across in that cuts across that narrative in a way that I think even liberals have to think about because Someone who uh is is immediately reactive to that kind of sentiment that goes, Wait a minute, but liberal but uh Israel is a liberal democracy. It's the only uh democracy in the region. Why is he saying that? Um they they understand at least one part of it where they think, okay, he's saying You know, Hamas killed twelve hundred people. Um, you know, a third of them were were soldiers, a third of them were, you know Uh uh military uh people who were like, you know, active duty uh in the military. Uh, and then civilians as well. Israel has done that, you know, a thousand fold to the Palestinians. So I think like even in the most reductive ways, uh, even in the most um reductive ways to to try to comprehend what I'm saying there, people can understand that. Like I think people are not stupid. We we assume that they're stupid. I will tell I'll just I'll tell it landed with me because I was like it it wasn't like Oh, wait, why did he say that Israel's some great I was like Israel has committed just horrific atrocity. Like what I like I I you know, I have moved so far on this. But I'm like, Hamas is f they're fucking, what did they do? Like October 7th was cat catastrophic for them. It was also like, uh we've all seen the images, like like kids and and people and the a lot of like very these are like leftist peace nicks Israelis at a concert and they fucking massacred them. And I'm like, these people are like. I just wanna have And I do think it's important in politics to have like universal principles, right? Which is like if if violence violence is always wrong, civilian violence is always wrong, targeting children and women always wrong. No matter who which side does it, right? And I do think that it's important, not just from a moral perspective, from but from like a building a political coalition perspective to say if I think one thing is wrong, one action is wrong on this side, then it also has to be wrong on the other side. Even if there is an obvious power imbalance and even if there is a history. But we don't always do that is my point. Oh I know. We don't all we don't do that when the dust is settled. We don't do that when uh the the historic forces have played itself out and we look back at it. Um and I I don't see a reason not to to apply that same interpretation because I see Both Uh, I see the civilians on both sides as human beings worthy of dignity. And I think a lot of people don't realize that they do have a little bit of an implicit bias where we've been trained as Americans living here during the global war on terror to collateralize one side and to see the other side as like a European style country that's under attack. I do. So we have the capacity to see uh the the violence that Israelis are subjected to as like real human beings, maybe even your neighbor dying in the hands of scary brown people, as opposed to Palestinians that die enti blocks reduced to rubble, is something that we've seen so many times on the TV, whether it be the Syrians war, whether it be uh uh, you know, uh Iraq, Afghanistan. So we automatically collateralize those those the lives of those Palestinians. So that's part of the reason why those those images Or I think the most power like that is what personally has moved me. Yeah. Th m the most is seeing those image. Like I remember like in in Post October seventh and talked about it a lot here and and the student protest movement and all the craziness over that. And I remember thinking, like, it was There's that there's that Columbia student who, uh, I think was eventually suspended or expelled or whatever for saying um Uh, like you're lucky I didn't kill more Zionists and all that. And I and I remember thinking to myself, like I someone says something like that and it's just a a reaction that I can't even like it's just a human reaction to be like, Oh, maybe I don't want to be with these, like this is bad. I don't want to hear like that's now you want to kill Zionists or you're like That's fucking crazy. That's hurting your movement. Yeah, no, I I've been look, here's the thing. I've been around protest movements my uh whole professional media career for a very long time. I've been doing this for a decade plus. There's gonna be cringe people, there's gonna be passionate people that say unhinged things that I totally disagree with. Yeah. At the end of the day. Um, this is exactly what happened with Black Lives Matter as well, where you know, there'd be like uh Uh there'd be someone that says like, yeah, fry them like bacon, and then the media would laser in on that to disparage the entire movement. So I have a policy of looking at what. The actual movement represents. Do I identify with those values? Do I agree with them? Rather than uh, you know, uh key. uh key offenders that have said something that I consider to be heinous as well, right? Um And I don't spend a lot of time or or uh put a lot of emphasis on people like that because been to these campuses. I've been to these encampments. And they were some of the best organized movements I have ever seen. They had messaging discipline. They had all of the right things. They had protest marshals that would keep everything intact. They refused to talk to the media unless they had someone who was doing communication for the entire encampment that would talk to the media and they still got brutalized. UCLA is the one I went to. Um, I couldn't believe it. Like, These these uh, you know, pro Israel Groups. where they they set up these uh massive uh the they set up this like massive auditorium or not an auditorium I don't know what it's called but like a projector where they uh were blasting uh October seven footage and and calling these uh student encampment uh uh uh student protesters like heinous words. They threw fireworks into the encampment. They brutalized these students. And these weren't students that were doing that. These were pro-Israel people that just came from around the area. Right. And and I couldn't believe what I saw where like the media's coverage was either both sides in it or oftentimes siding with the pro Israel. uh with the pro Israel people. So like for me It's uh I look at the values and I also don't place a lot of emphasis on like the whatever the media narrative is because we love doing that. Yeah. We love having a conversation about like whose feelings are being hurt in the Western world when the conversation should be about, you know, who's dying in Gaza. Save America is brought to you by Z Biotics Pre Alcohol. I have a personal story. Okay. I had two drinks last night and forgot the Z Biotics. What a shame. Yeah. What a shame is right. What a shame. Can't do it. Can't do it. Because I ran out of Z biotics and now I have to order some more. Gotta get some more. And guess what? I I don't think I'll be drinking until I until it arrives. 'Cause your hands are gonna shake. Not a Yeah, maybe. Maybe. But that's a different problem. The other problem Zbiotics can solve. It's a pre-alcohol probiotic drink. The world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a build up of this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre-alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre-alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly. And you'll feel your best tomorrow. From the fairways in Augusta to the first pitch of baseball season and the start of festival circuits. April is a sprint of outdoor celebrations. Don't let a rough next day keep you on the sidelines. Drink pre alcohol to stay ahead of the game and make the most of every sunny Saturday. Go to Zbiotics.com slash crooked. To learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use Crooked at checkout. ZBiotics is back with 100% money back guarantee. So if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they will refund your money. No questions asked. Remember to head to zbiotics.com slash crooked and use the code Crooked at checkout. For fifteen percent off. On on Zionism, you know, being an anti-Zionist. When you say you're an anti-Zionist, are you Rejecting the premise that a Jewish homeland is a legitimate project at all? Or Is your anti Zionism specifically about the policies and practices of the Israeli state as it exists today? I think Zionism is a fascist ideology. Um it it really it truly 'cause I I do I think part of the issue I think this is like a definitional issue. Yeah. Obviously. But I do think that like there's probably a lot of um I think a lot of probably secular liberals and even secular Jews in this country who think of Zionism as they do. Um like I I like the idea of a Jewish homeland and do not think Ethnostate, do not think any of that other stuff. And then there's people who you know, and uh who very much define it as no, it must always be a Jewish majority state. And uh if democracy and equal rights come second, then so be it. Yeah. Uh well That is what has happened. Right. That is which is de facto that's what we have right now. Def de facto what we have right now. And it was something that we were always going to head in the direction of. Um because I mean, even Stalin was a big advocate of Israel initially. I mean, they were the ones who uh trafficked weapons in nineteen forty seven that was you yeah, that were used on Palestinian villages uh by way of Czechoslovakia, right? The illegally going through the blockade. Um There was this idea that like initially uh labor Zionism and and you know, Bangeren was a socialist, right? Like this was gonna be like almost like a Marxist project. Uh, but It was just ethnic cleansing from the start. And My assessment on Zionism. As an ideology. Is is not that different from Albert Einstein's assessment of Zionism. 'Cause when he saw Dir Yasin and these uh and the and the violence that the early Zionist brigades were engaging in, Haganah, Irgun. Uh Leah. these militia movements before the IDF existed, before Israel existed. Uh and he was actually uh asked to be the first president of Israel. He he wrote about What? Zionism was turning into. And he warned. That What he was seeing. Exactly what the Nazis were doing. And he warned about it. He said, if we do not have a commitment to binationalism. If we do not have a commitment to the people that are already living there. The atrocities that I'm seeing. you know, Zionist brigades are engaging in right now, committing right now against the Palestinians, is going to turn into exactly what the Nazis have done. And he was right. He saw it ahead of time. I mean he he knew what the Nazis were. He lived through it, right? And and So my my perspective is shaped by people Who have done uh uh either extensive research on this, like uh, you know, Israeli historian like Elon Pape, Avi Shlaim. Or or people who have lived through this process, many of which are Jews who have lived through this process and and could not comprehend it. One of the first people that I interviewed after October seven. was Dr. Ofar Kossiff. He is the only Jewish anti-Zionist in the Knesset. There's a uh a a Palestinian citizen of Israel who's also an anti-Zion in the Knesset. They've like two people basically. Um Very it's a lone voice. But they exist. Right. I I I care about the perspective of people like that as well. Uh so I so I develop a better understanding of like what it looks like to have to fight fascist forces uh in the country that you're a part of, in the country that you love, in the country that you want to change, uh in a better uh change uh towards a better future, towards a better trajectory. 'cause I see it as The same fight that I'm fighting here in America. Because Zionism. The end of the day, like I said, is is a ethno religious supremacist ideology that is exterminationist. And it's in many respects no different than what we see in MAGA. Right. Christian nationalism. That is. A fascist ideology. I don't think you would disagree with that, right? No, well, and there's I mean there's also ethnonationalism. Israel has like laws that have put this into place. But like there's de facto ethnonationalism in in in many different countries around the world. You could make the same critique of Hindu nationalism, the Turkish treatment of the Kurds. Again, Japanese immigration policy. Things that I oppose vehemently and things that I talk about extensively. Oftentimes people will yell at me uh for my criticism of both of those things. Yeah. You've said you Abhor anti Semitism. You've drawn a distinction between being anti Israel and anti Semitic. Yeah. I take that at face value. Here's the harder question, like where exactly do you draw the line? Because I think I think most serious people agree. that anti Zionism isn't automatically anti Semitism. But there is disagreement where the line runs in specific cases. And I think rhetoric, whether it's out of context or not, has landed in the gray zone, like calling ultra orthodox Jews inbred, comparing liberal Zionists to liberal Nazis, the the pig dogs uh comments. Like Pink Dog one is I I I didn't even know that was like a thing. Did you know that it was like Yeah, I don't 'cause even Jake Tapper, when he brought it up, he's like, I don't know what this is, but he was like clearly reading a quote from in front of him. He's like the idiot maybe. Well, I know I I went and I'm like, I've seen it and there's like, well, there's a b it's it's one of those. I didn't even it's like one of those things. I guess the larger question is like, how do you think about as you're talking about this? Drawing the line. w in a way where you're like, Okay, if I'm going to you know, I'm I'm anti Zionist, I wanna make this argument, I wanna talk about the project, but I really don't want Anyone to Take as anti Semitic. Yeah. Not just because It hurts your feelings, but because you're trying to You're trying to build a political movement. Yeah. Well it's not just because I want to build a political movement. It's because I also genuinely abhor anti uh semitism. I so it's a great question. It's one that I answer all the time, because this is a real problem right now where like anti Semitism is growing in this country. It's undeniable. As it historically always has, whenever Israel does these sieges, the the mowing of the lawn operations And it's doing it and it's tying itself to Judaism in this very sinister way. Uh and and people see that and they think, Okay, well, you know, this is the Jewish state doing this. Maybe it's the Jews, right? There's already a lot of of people that have these opinions about Uh you know. Jewish billionaires and Jewish millionaires controlling the media, controlling the banking system. So like it pair up perfectly with what they're seeing. Yeah. And we've definitely seen a great deal of that. So what I try to do is stress the importance and showcase that This Uh this attitude It's not monolithic. inside of the American Jew. The reason why I think it's really important, even though I'm a Muslim guy, so most people when they hear me say that, they don't give a shit. Right? 'Cause they're like Yeah. Goy splaining. But um The uh the reason why I I uh stress that importance is because it's true. I mean, there's a there's a funny saying, it's like what two Jews, three opinions, right? Like no group are no group is monolithic, and Jewish Americans certainly are not. They have very different assessments of what's going on. And we see that. We see that in the polling that is conducted. We see it within Israel as well. Yeah, yeah, exactly. No. I mean, well, Israel's a little bit different because like at at that at a certain point there is a overwhelming force of people who are on there. It's a different perspective to get that. So Um What I what I show always to people is that there's a difference between a lot of Jewish institutions and how Jews actually feel. And I actually sometimes will make a plea to not only my Jewish fans, but just to whoever is listening. And hopefully people will will take away this message as well to try to separate. Israel from their institutions and to show themselves uh as as if you have if you consider what Israel's doing it to be repugnant. then then stress. that there is that distinction between a Jewish institution that you might be a part of And and how much they celebrate Israel or how much they try to fundraise for the IDF, for example, or do Uh settler fairs. Which are illegal inside of synagogues. Because From what my experience, there are a lot of Jewish advocacy organizations in this country. And a lot of Jewish institutions in this country. That simply masquerade as Jewish institutions and Jewish advocacations when they're just pro Israel advocacy organizations and institutions. The ADL is a great example of this. The apartheid defense league, as I like to call them, uh led by Jonathan Greenblad. is is is is very obviously not invested in combating anti Semitism at all and is simply using anti Semitism in this cynical way to attack critics of Israel, prominent critics that have spent decades fighting anti Semitism and still continue to do so, myself included. And Um Separation. That lack of separation, rather, is teaching Americans who have not been inundated with uh, you know, Zionist indoctrination, who haven't, you know, who don't have any association with Jews other than watching Seinfeld and thinking, oh, you know, they control the media, but they make good movies, right? Like that's the attitude of the average American about Jewish people who are Uh some I think the most celebrated religious uh minority in this country, most celebrated religious group in this country. Um, I don't know where it is right now, but that's what the polling is consistently. Um, and the least is I think Mormons, weirdly enough. But anyway. Um Surprising. Um The the the way that people see it is they they they Watch heinous violence unfold. And they see Uh the Israeli state call itself the Jewish state. And then they see Americans. American Jews. Uh and and uh Jewish institutions say, Yes, that is the Jewish state. Zionism is important to us. It is the most important thing. We are tied to Israel in this inseparable way. We do care about it, and you as an American should shut up. You as an American should be canceled, you as an American should not have a job if you speak out against Israel because you're being anti Semitic. What lesson are we teaching Americans? We're teaching them. Every Jewish person demonstrates dual loyalty, which is false. It's a trope. It's a lie. It's not true. that's what we're teaching people. And we're also teaching people Um, everything that Israel does, it does for Jews. Every time we call Israel the Jewish state. That's what we're doing. That's what we're teaching regular Americans. So I try to combat those forces on a daily basis. And ironically enough, I would say this like at my size. in the streamer universe especially, uh, where where most of the prominent Uh, most of the prominent Israel critics are, you know, Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes, and many other right wing forces. They don't care about making that distinction. I do. So it blows my mind. groups like the uh apartheid defense league. Spend most of their time. And when you hear them too. You'll hear Some of them are just all conspiracy all the time. But like, you know, a Tucker Carlson's a good example. There'll be like a he'll do like a a very thoughtful critique of Israel and then suddenly like launch into a conspiracy where you're like, Okay, now we're just pu this is just now we're into anti Semitic territory. Now it's a Jewish conspiracy for this and that and the other thing. And it's like They do yeah, it's it it is a it is a a real difference. But I do think that like Look, I find as someone who has um has not always talked about this issue but has a lot recently. Like it it feels often like A minefield, as you're talking about it, because I Very much like the idea that um I would say anything anti Semitic was like horrifying to me. You know, I believe anti Semit Semitism is very, very real. Um, but it is quite difficult because a lot of very pro Israel voices will say That's anti Semitic by w because you've criti critiqued Israel. There's also a lot of stuff that Israel does or or Israel advocacy groups do. objectively does look insane when you explain it. Like Like one of the things that I've talked about, uh, or or one of the things that I talked about early on was like sometimes you hear something that Israel has done and you're like Did they do that? Are you being anti Semitic right now? And then you find out you're like, Oh my God, they did do that. That is insane. So like there is that element of it too. where on the one hand, a lot of defenders of Israel will call like anything that you say blood libel, like, oh, Israel kills children. That's blood libel. How dare you say that? It's like, Well I've seen it. Like I've seen the children. There's the numbers are there. And I've also personally seen uh some of the children that have been murdered uh with these uh bombing campaigns, right? So that already undermines the the impact of of blood libel as a as a way to Like i to to have a conversation about blood libel to begin with, which is a real historic wrong, a real historic way to to associate uh uh people of the Jewish faith with like, you know, uh whatever heinous acts that uh Uh led to the programs, right? So you're undermining anti Semitism every time you do that, but then also simultaneously You're teaching people that like This is a good thing. Like this is something that you defend. This is something that you consider to be defensible. And you're doing that while you're associating. With Judaism. The way I explain it, I I Delivered a speech at Oxford Union. Um a year and a half ago at this point. And The way I explained it to people, and at the time the the change in attitude in the Western world was not so calcified, right? Um, but my positions were obviously the same. And I explained to people, look. What a lot of people don't understand with this dangerous conflation, I will give you a warning as a Muslim American who has lived in the United States of America since 2009 and has experienced Islamophobia. A lot of people think that Israel is still You know, an acceptable country. It's no longer an acceptable country. It will become a pariah state if it hasn't already. It has always been a pariah state for the third world, but now in the first world, in the developed nations, people are beginning to recognize Israel as a pariah state. D previous ways of defending Israel by saying it's the most moral nation on earth, it's the only democracy in the region, no matter how racialized those tropes were and how silly they were, uh it worked because most people were oblivious to what Israel does. Now they know. So This would be equivalent to me running around and and saying you can't criticize Saudi Arabia. Because Sa the Mecca is there, you know, Medina is there, the Kaaba is in Saudi Arabia. Uh you cannot criticize Saudi Arabia's blockade against Yemen, for example, because you're Islamophobic. This would be the equivalent of me running around as a as a Muslim saying, I'm a Muslim. And our institutions, our mosques, our fundraising for ISIS. And if you criticize ISIS, if you if you dare say anything about the i i the Islamic State that are trying to implement a caliphate. That's true Islam. You're Islamophobic. And then The media was also defending that position and all of our institutions were defending that position. Well I also think it's easier now. For unfortunately. Very unfortunately for Americans to understand, because um we are seeing something like that happen here in the United States, um under under Trump. But also, like I think this is this will sound crazy, but I thought the only One of the most compelling things, maybe one of the only compelling things Joe Biden said after October seventh, right after October seventh was the yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, was that. Um He warned, he he he gave a warning to Israel, don't do what we did after nine eleven. Yeah. Don't make that mistake. No. Yeah, and we know what happens from hugged Benjamin and I think about that often because and now all these uh you know, these years later, as as as Trump has Trump second term has you know, he's charging towards a you know a an authoritarian state as well. I'm always like, how can you like of course It's easy to imagine another country doing something like this because it's happening here. Yeah. That's why it's that's why it's not it's not it doesn't have to do with anything about the specific religion. It's what happens when people are in power and they decide to use that power to oppress other people. Like that is the All right. Let's let's get back to American politics before we before we close. Um I mean I would say Israel politics is American political. It is right now you uh also uh brought up, and not just like foreign policy. I mean What you're talking about is correct. It's the same exact fascist forces and sometimes it's the same exact like ethno religious uh uh attitudes, like the ethnorigious supremacist attitudes that is is uh You know, the the guiding principle of this uh growing MAGA fascist movement in this country. Steven Miller. Ponte America is brought to you by Rocket Money. I realized that. Because you can in some of the streaming apps you can have other streaming apps inside of that streaming apps and also Ari had some streaming apps and I realized like how many different places am I paying for I would like the answer to be zero every frankly. Rocket Money allows you to track subscriptions and cancel them within the app in just a few taps. In fact, Rocket Money has saved users over $880 million to cancel subscriptions. You know, I got a nice TV, I want to watch it in the H D version, but the bundles don't include the HD version. It's like I want 4K. I want to see these fores. These are the challenges. These are the challenges. Rock money. You can categorize automatic transactions across your accounts. They customize categories with tags to help shed light on your spending patterns. budgets and goals, get personalized insights and regular reports on your spending habits. You can even receive real time alerts for large transactions, upcoming bills, refunds, and low balances. The Rocket Money app allows you to consolidate your checking savings, loans, and investment accounts into a single dashboard to give you a clear picture of your finances. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitor your spending, and help you lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at RocketMoney.com slash crooked. That's RocketMoney.com slash crooked. Rocketmoney.com. Flash quick. We got midterms in November, uh 2028 Democratic primary is already beginning. We had a bunch of potential candidates for at Sharptons event in New York. Uh the D and C winter meeting kicked off Thursday. How do you see your role in electoral politics over the next few years. I see myself as uh a megaphone for the people. Uh and uh if I mean I have uh I'm fortunate enough to have a a fairly large platform at this point. So Uh, the way I look at it is look, I have a lot of door knockers, phone bankers, phone raisers in my community, community uh you know, community leaders. Uh and people that are you know running for office as well, running for office themselves. Um Uh Labor organizers. And the media as well. So like th these are some of the most tuned in people to politics. They're tuning in the politics when it's boring. They're tuning into politics. Uh before the primaries, right? And they're certainly tuning in in the general. Um You want to talk to these people. Because even if size wise they might not be the biggest force, like I don't have the same audience as like Joe Rogan, for example. Um their impact is outsized. So you wanna be able to convince these people that you're Their guy. And A lot of politicians have have recognized that. And it's really interesting because like these past two weeks they've been, you know, writing all of these different uh things about, you know, how dangerous it is and Democrats shouldn't associate with me. And then they're like, Associate with us the third way instead. And it's like no one fucking cares about that. But I have, you know, fielded hundreds of requests at this point leading up to the primaries. After those After those articles came out. Probably 10X. It's insane. People were just like, Yeah, okay, I don't care. Yeah, please, please let's do uh means. Yes. Yes. And places that you would find very uh interesting as well. It's not just like, you know, radical lefty candidates either. There are a lot of people who are like, This is a this is clearly a massive audience. uh you have the capacity to communicate with, you know, young men especially. And we want to be able to reach out to those people that we've lost. So You know? So that's it. before this this last media cycle for you, there was one, I think, in March. Um you said you wouldn't vote for Gavin Newsome against J D Vance in twenty twenty eight. Yeah. And you vote third party. I mean I don't I I don't even think that's gonna be a problem. Well like a lot of a lot of people, including people who who share a lot of your critiques of the Democratic Party hear that and think, like this is the problem. You know, when the stakes are concrete, like a a Vance presidency, another four years of what we're living through. you know, the people who say they're building a movement would, you know, like rather preserve their own power than, you know, do what winning requires and, you know, hold your nose and vote for uh what you believe would be the lesser of two evils. Like, how do you respond to that? I realize that you are a a California voter, but You have fans and and and audience, I'm sure, in a lot of the swing states. Yeah. Like What do you tell people who follow you, who respect you, who happen to live in swing states as we head to twenty twenty twenty six and twenty twenty eight. I want the Democratic Party to treat me like a never Trumper. I want the Democratic Party me like a triple Trump voter. Okay, because it turns out that's all they're tuned into. So if that if what it takes for the Democrats to turn around and be like, Wait a minute, we're losing this guy, we have to win him over again or whatever, instead of just like taking my vote for granted, as they've done so over and over again for the left flank, um Then you know, I'm gonna say things that May or may not end up uh being true, but it doesn't matter. We're so far out from the election anyway, that it's like I'm I'm just saying, look, now is your opportunity to find a good candidate instead. But you see but you see. as we head into these that like after what we've lived through these last years. the stakes and the stark difference between Even a Democrat who you and I might find uh not up to par, to say the least, versus Vance or whoever the fuck they put up. Of course. I mean I I I hate Republicans. I oppose them. I I say that all the time. I I think that the Republicans are are far more damaging, the biggest terrorists the biggest domestic terrorist in this country, the biggest terrorist internationally is the Republican Party. And not only that, but it's just like Uh They like I I I want to fight against the the growing fascist movement in this country. My frustration with the Democrats is their conciliatory attitude towards that and and their lack of investment in this struggle, this this idea that You know, on the one hand you say Donald Trump's a dangerous force. I see that. I recognize that. But then you turn around and you take on uh anti immigrant narratives and anti immigrant uh messaging from the twenty twenty election that you won and decide you're gonna be the sincere candidate that ends up uh, you know dealing with the growth of of migration in this country, it's a failure. If you were serious about being an anti fascist, if you were serious about combating. These forces. you would take it more seriously. You would do everything you can. You wouldn't try to win by your own coalition that you want to build and like, you know, parade Liz Cheney around and and act as though you're gonna win with like never Trumpers or whatever. You would do everything in your power. To talk to people. on uh on your left flank. And we're seeing that now better than ever before with people like Platiner and Maine, right? That like you can actually be an outspoken leftist that says I'm for pro I'm I'm pro Medicare for all. I'm an anti-Zionist. I'm anti-genocide. You have candidates like that winning. uh at least, you know, inshallah winning in places like Man and Unseeding Republicans, even you got Dan Osbourne. Like not every single one of these guys is the same. Yeah. Right. They don't always like all their positions are going to line up. Yeah, they're not they're not uniform, but there is this broad left flank, left populism, Bernie Krat attitude. that I'm seeing from a lot of candidates and and The centrist forces are very afraid. of the movement that is building, the movement that is brewing on that side because Um They don't want a thousand Zorons. I want a thousand Zorons to bloom. Okay. Let a thousand Zorons blossom all around the country. That's what I want. He's very popular right now. Yeah. Do you want to say something nice about John Osoff, or do you like him enough? That you realise saying something nice about him would be bad. Well I don't think see that's the thing. I don't I I don't believe that because if I believe that I would be a burden to campaigns, I wouldn't go out and campaign with people that I like. Yeah. Um They they ironically enough did think that way back in the day when I first actually worked with the Osav campaign and then the Raphael Warnock campaign in the first election that they did, right? And I work with them privately. I set it up to uh for them to do something on Twitch. But I I did it on background because uh they were worried that like associating with me even back then would be bad for Georgia. I don't agree. I don't think that's the case at all. You look at all these places. You look at like some of the most conservative places in like Virginia, uh, or or West Virginia even, and you you pull them on on things like what do you think about the DSA? What do you think about Israel? And it's like a lot closer to me than they are to an establishment democrat. And and the same goes for Medicare for all. So like Um the idea that that we have not also polarized in the exact same way that the Republicans have is very silly. We're in a very different political environment now, and we're in a very different media environment right now. Um, and it's actually mainstream media that's trying to play catch up. It's actually the establishment democrats that are trying to play catch up to where the public is actually at. Most people don't care about this stuff. They don't they see the clips. And uh they go, Okay, that sounds kinda crazy. Um let me go check this guy out. And then they and then they hear what I have to say because I'm I'm not. A political operative. doesn't have his own platform. I'm a political operative with his own platform that is competitive with these other platforms that are speaking over me. So I'm endlessly accessible. You can just come and see what I have to say, see what I'm about, and and very quickly that. Perhaps the way that I'm being presented in mainstream news is maybe not the, the, the right way. Uh, maybe it's a little bit of a manufactured outrage campaign. Um And One example I'll use is this. I was monitoring the situation. On my flight back. From Michigan. Uh to Los Angeles. Which apparently some agent of Laura Loomer took a photo of sleeping, which was so crazy. Um But uh while I was monitoring the situation, I was listening to Dana Bash talk about what's going on in Iran. Then all of a sudden Dana Bash starts talking about me. And it had my choice quotes up there, you know, like uh the the the most insincere one is me actually defending uh or uh claiming that I'm you know defending rapes or or whatever, like denying sexual. I didn't bring that one up because I do think that was the most out of context one. Yeah, that was so clear. You weren't saying rape doesn't matter. You were saying it doesn't justify genocide. Yeah, it doesn't change the moral calculus on either side, I think. Which is um I'm just like it it's you know, Hamas did something fucking Catastrophic and and committed horrible atrocities. You brought a ra whether rape or not exists like that. It was still. You brought a really good point. Israel had a literal pro rape January sixth style riot after six of the uh Israeli occupation forces concentration camp guards as today tame on. We're were Prosecuted. Uh for raping Palestinian prisoners. And they and they release them. Well, and then Benjamin Nenyao apologized for even attempting to prosecute them, and now one of them is like a famous television guy. I still don't think I think that's the most heinous thing. That's the most insane thing I've ever heard, right? Back to my universal principle. But I still think Israel should be sexual wiped out. Sexual violence. Horrific no matter who commits it. Yeah. But but I don't think Israel should should receive uh Israel has done to the Palestinians. That's my uh assessment. That's my Uh attitude. But uh, so I saw Dana Bash. So There's a guy sitting next to me. And he's looking at the TV. He's also watching CNN. He turns around. That's It's like is that you? And I was like, ha ha no. And then I was like, Yeah, it's me. And the quote that was on screen was America deserved nine eleven. So I'm going through the motions of like this guy is is sitting next to a big bearded dude. On a plane. On a plane associated with nine eleven? Like and I was just like, Oh, that's uh that's You know, they're taking me out of context, like, you know what it is. And he was like, He he turns to me, he's a liberal guy. He's flying back to LA. He goes He's like, I hate data bash. So he automatically was on my side because of the resentment that he has towards CNN. That is maybe that's a that's a good place to leave it. That's a good place to leave it. And look, we love Denebash here. We're gonna maybe we'll get her here and we can talk about this too. Hasan, uh thanks for coming on. You'll have to come out again um next time you're uh causing a lot of trouble. Yeah. I mean that's probably gonna keep happening, it seems. So well we'll see it. Thank you for having me. Of course. Thanks to Hasan Piker for coming on the show. Tommy Lovitt and I will be back in your feeds on Tuesday with a new episode. If you want to listen to PodSave America ad-free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to Cricket.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review. That helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Cricket. PodSave America is a Crooked Media production. Our producer is Sal Rubin. Our Associate Producer is Faris Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Cherlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt DeGroat is our head of production, Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant, thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cone, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcote, Mia Kelman, Carol Pelaviv, David Tolls, and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.