Future Solutions and Closing Thoughts

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Heir to the throne, Andy Berham has finally made his first big speech, setting out his all to be the next Prime Minister. Among the announcements were re industrialisation, regeneration and some new running shorts. Al He might be moving Whitewell to Manchester. I don't know if you've heard but Andy Burnham lives in Manchester. I don't know if that's come up in any reading you've done about him, but he lives in Manchester. Also, is the proposed social media ban for under sixteenens really getting to the heart of the problem? Will we speak to someone with firsthand experience of odline harms and ask Can we ever hold those tech bros to account? Content note for our listeners though, that conversation will include references to suicide. Are you ready for this? Are you nish Are you ready for this That's probably not he's not referring to that is he That's you' ready for this. I don't know, that's y'all ready for the y. Let's just be clear. It would' have been very funny if that's how we dug with the supp quick So on Monday, Andy Berham made his first major policy speech since launching his bid to become Prime Minister. At its core, this was a speech about where power is exercised in the country, which brought him to his central pitch, ten North. The change will be driven through the Prime Mister's office in an extended operation based here in Manchester Buram described this initiative as the nerve center of a rewired Britain, aiming to tackle trickle down economics at the heart of Whiteool It is a vision for good growth and a rejection of the old trickle down model all parts of the UK should now be given the chance to develop their own version of the same focusing on the things that matter most to them One key agenda for number ten North will be to oversee the biggest Council House building program since the post war period Possible nationalization of key utilities and infrastructure also featured as part of the agenda. And he rounded off his pitch to be Britain's next prime Minister, repeating the phrase, growth in every postcode, hope in every heart, which sounds like he is ready to drop a line of slogan tease Does Andy Bernam have an Etsy shop? We will find out So what do you think? Let's just start in terms of How he came across. You know everyone talks about Andy Burnnam as a great communicator. Did you feel that I mean isten, it's a It's certainly a positive start. I think the idea of Definitely, in our conversation with Ben Rhodes last week, which if you haven't listened to, please do go back and listen to it. He talked a lot about essentially taking ownership of the problems in this country. And Burnham did say, my generation of politicians, including me, must take responsibility. we haven't been good enough That's a really important acknowledgement, but he also then went on to t about optimism. I think that combination of realism and optimism is something maybe that Starmer missed. So Starmer's first sort of major speech as Prime Minister was the sort of You know, it was him in the Rose Garden essentially saying things can only get worse. And I think that it's really difficult to strike a balance between those two tones, which is acknowledging that things because if you You know, if you talk about how brilliant things are looked deluded and towards the end of his term, Starmer did look deilluded when he talks about consistently talks about the achievements of his government and the record of his government. It looked deilluded, the sort of gap between people's day to day lives and how Stum was making things out was a real problem. So I think Tonally This is and he struck probably the right tone. but I think obviously this is partart one of seventy five things you need to hear from A, right? So it's like it's it's good it's important to say that You know, he did sort of he did have a concrete policy proposal. It wasn't just You know, it wasn't just sort of hot air really. but is we need to know so much stuff about him. And I mean the only reason that if I sound concerned is because I think I am justified in my concern because According to some timetables that various journalists have been laying out this week, he could be Prime Mister by the seventeenth of july. Now that is bananas that's sixteen days from right now where we are is R recrawl on Wednesday the first of July, o. And so It's great that we know about his devolution plan, but we also need to know a whole bunch of things. What's his NHS policy? What's his policy on education? Council House buildilding is really welcome, but what he What's the short term policy announcements going to be for people who are living at the moment in incredibly expensive rent or in, you know insecure rented times. What we need pololicy information about that What's he going to do about Gaza? You know, I sort of appreciate that when he was running for MP for Makerfield regardless of how the reality of that campaign was and its purpose. He was running to be a local MP, but now he's going to be prrime M minister. So now foreign policy is incredibly important. What's his relationship going to be like with Donald Trump? What's his policy going to be like on Ukraine, on Gaza? These are really, really important questions that we have to ask. There more concern about the clarity around the EHRC ruling for transgender people living in Britain. What's his policy going to be on that? this is There are so many questions that we need answering. and I appreciate he can't do all of that in one speech, obviously. But at the same time, if he's going to be prrime Minister in sixteen days, we need one of these speeches per day. We basically need one of these per day to and even then that won't cover the full range of subjects, but at least we need to know you know Certainly, healthca education, social care, transport, foreign policy. Certainly, these are issues we need clarity on as soon as humanly possible because he's going to be running the country in twoo and a half weeks. Yeah, absolutely. I agree with you fully that we need to hear more from him and we need to get the opportunity to understand what's coming down the way. I think that's fair enough. for this initial speech you must forgive me I asking myself this question, like Is it true that Andy Burnham is an effective communicator? Is it true or is this mythmaking about him? And actually I confess when he first started speaking, I was like, well, I don't really to see it. As he got into his groove, I started to see, oh, okay, this is why he has this reputation. It's a very different style of speech. I thought a lot about what Ben Rhodes was saying about like when you deliver a political speech, you need to be the only person who could deliver it And there were hints of that. So he talked about, you know growing up in the nineteen seventies. and at that time, if you were working class, you know you were confident that you would get a council house and you would have secure tenndancy. and you could probably get a decent vocational career and that would give you a good quality of life. And he recognized that that had absolutely diedath that dream had died I was grateful for that. know that he put himself in the story saying, I saw that, I benefited from that. and actually it is gone. and him talking about how his generation and ultimately his age of people have not Some of them are still in denial about the situation for younger people and the debt that we're faced with and the lack of opportunity that we have. And so it was great to kind of hear that as well Now in terms of the communication, ar I thought, yeah, he kind of met it. but I agree with you that in terms of policy, there's still so much to discuss and to understand. One thing he did obviously announce was this number ten North. I just want you to get your thoughts on that really. I mean, my top line thoughts were I understand that local areas know what local areas need. That makes sense. Give them the power to you know shape their communities because they know their communities better than anybody else. I get all of that. That makes sense. Divolution is a great idea. I'm up for more of it, of course But I still have this thought, which is that You not have done more of that without moving the whole buildilding all the stuff. you know because it was this whole thing famously when the the Office of National Statistics moved and loads of the staff didn't want to move. And so there was this problem where they just lost a load of talent. you know, looking at people who are certainly older than us who have children who were in their teens, they just couldn't relocate. and then there was this lack of skill in the ONS for a while. I'm not saying that would happen again. And I'm sure there is plenty of talent all around the country, but nonetheless, you know it' quite big to propose moving an entire department or moving a whole thing. And I kept asking myself, why? is it because Geography of being in Westminster makes people cow toe to Westminster thinking or the fact that the treasury is literally down the off down the corridor or whatever. if it's that If it's that simple that it's like literally who is in front of your face is the person that you're influenced by, that makes me lose a lot of confidence in my politicians because you expect them to have a greater sense of mission, a greater ability to scrutinize beyond who's in the bloody pub with them. Do you know what I mean? Do you really need to physically separate treasury departments from other people for them to make decisions in the best interest of the person and the communities they serve, really just makes me feel like It's because there was a lack of vision treasury brain could infiltrate. Does that make sense? Yeahah. I mean, I think I totally agree with you. I mean, decentralization, I think is H is something that you know, the country, I think the country would massively benefit from att the same time, you know, The Prime Mister probably has to be in the capital city of the country But I know that that's I'm trying not to be too London centric with this, but The Prime M minister probably does need to be the capital city of the country. You know, that is that sort of is a that that is just a reality of how governments and nations are structured. So let me just read you this quote from Patrick McGuire's artle in the Times, right? And Patrick says the number ten North Mandate is the most serious check on the centralized power of the treasury in half a century. Almost unnoticed, Burnham said he would manage his key economic priorities not only from his own office, but outside White Hall itself. He was unambiguously stating that the treasury itself is the problem. Yeah. and the idea of the phrase treasury brain Yeah has sort of been going around for most of the last kind of part of a decade really, that there is this idea that a kind of group thing cette in about the way that economies are economies been run And so I mean, if he is reimagining the way that we run our economy, that is a good thing I was under the press and please I know that I might sound like I'm five years old, but I just genuinely don't get it because treasury Brain, as I understood it, was this was this that idea of the tail wagging the dog, right? So rather than going to treasury saying, right, this is what we need. findind a way to get that bunny and make it work. Go and do it What would happen is people would go to treasury and say, Oh, can we do this for the schools? And treasury being treasury, they're always like, no, no, that's their job, right? They just manage the peas and the pens and to be fiscally conservative. That's their job. So they do their job they are meant to and thatah. But is it really the case that what's required, therefore is to separate politicians physically from treasury Or could politicians just not have a bit of spy? and be like, hey Treasury, we need funding for schools. Find it, you know what I mean? Why do we need to separate them like it's in the playground? Get it. I think that there is an element to which. It's very convenient for a lot of political leaders to blame treur Treasury Brain to say that we would have done all of these things if the treasury hadn't gotten the way. whereereas in reality there's a lack of vision. Last month, Ollie Dougmore from the news statemment did a long interview with Mariana Maticato, who was You know supppposedly the kind of So intellectual ballast for Kist Aama's economic platform. And she said something really interesting when she was asked about the kind of because her book Mission Economy was supposed to be the kind of It was certainly where the phrase Kir Star had used most often was the economic mission. that cameirect it's pretty obvious that that came directly from that book. And she said something really interesting when Oll interviewed her last month, She said, Guys, you misunderstand what missions are. Growth is not the mission, growth is the result. Missions can't just be top down, technocratic, otherwise, you kill innovation And I think the Treasury Brain has been quite a useful smokes screen for governments to say we can't do anything. But the governments themselves have lacked vision. And I think use of the phrase good growth, I think is really interesting because that brings it back to They sort of Mats a can't do principle. of You know, we've had economic growth. Yeah, but this is but this is a problem. Yeah. We've managed to decouple economic growth from rising living standards. So actually him saying good gross at least alludes to the idea that He's understanding that there is a different kind of economics that needs to be at workking. And so he's talking about being skeptical of trickle down economics. Great. we certainly agree with that. But if there is growth, how is it distributed, right? Or rather redistributed across the country to where the needs are? For me, there's only one mechanism and that's taxation And I have not yet heard him talk about this. Well this is the thing. So that's again a sort of So again a lot of these things that he said. so the the We haven't heard anything specific about how that good growth is going to manifest itself. He's highlighted a need for greater public control over water energy transport and housing. any move towards nationalization is probably likely to be gradual rather than immediate. So he's the B network bus network. So while he was Mor of Manchester, took the buses under public control. I suspect that will spread slowly across the country The previous previous the current government that put into place this greatreat British railway system, which is essentially the government slowly taking control as contracts lapse on various private rail networks. I suspect I don't know how you accelerate that program. We don't know what it would look like to accelerate that program. The most interesting thing is the biggest council house building program since the post war period. and that is You know, people keep saying build more houses, build more houses, build more houses We need to build houses people can actually afford to live in. Yeah. You can build as many houses as you want, but if they are snapped up by private equity firms That's not going to help. I would urge people to go back and listen to our interview with Hetty O'Brien about private equity and how the role of that those kind of organizations play in buying up housing. I'm encouraged by the idea of House buildilding program And Selter, the housing charity said that Burnham's call and what he's alluded to so far could utterly transform Britain. Sarah Ellot, who is the chief executive of Selldter said, Andy Burnham is right on the money here. Any government that is serious about fixing life's foundations must start by delivering a new generation of social rent homes and strengthening the arm of councils to get We are hemorrhaging money in housing benefit to private landlords. is It's criminal how much money iss going out of the government's coffers here Building cououncil houses is something that is genuinely meaningful it. Yeah, absolutely. nothing but support for that mission But again, what how? tellell me the details. You know, where I live. so I'm in East London. Hackney Council are in a legal battle with the mayor of London's office at the moment because You know, a lot of the development that was signed off in Hackney was under this Ustanding that an amount of it would be affordable housing And surprise, surprise, the developers are like, actually we really don't want to meet that target. Yeah Can we still go ahead? Mayor of London's offffice agreed? Hatney Council are like, Absolutely not. This is the problem with rising housing costses. It makes everybody's life a lot harder. It squeezes the vulnerable even more. We cannot allow a more. And so they're actually about this. These battles will take place all over the countries unless there's a clear indicator of how this is going to work and actually enforce it, you know? I mean This is aort of sidebar, but Zora Mundani, and you must forgive me because I'm going to completely bastardize this story, but I'm fairly certain he recently intervened. in a housing dispute between a large New York landlord and some tenants And he obviously intervened on the side of the tenant. So I was very disappointed toar that the mayor of London's office had sided with the developers, it would seem. I'm sure there's reasons for that, but nonetheless, What I want to see is more of the Mundani style of saying that where there are tangles, o, we will be getting involved and we will be taking a side and you know, whose side it will be, it will be the people. So that's the sort of thing would I would like to see, but you know, no argument about the council building I mean, it just made I know that people will listen to this and think that we're sounding unnecessarily critical of Andy Burnham. and it's his first speech. but at the same time The issue here is the timeline He's if it is you know, the middle of July that he's taken over, we've got we need more. We need more announcements. He was It wasn't a unanimously positive reception for the speech. The Joseph Ranry Foundation highlighted there wasn't enough information about the cost of living crisis. So Bernam acknowledged that people can' wait fver for change and people need a bit extra now to help with rising costs. And then he said, I will do my best to deliver it, but there were no details. So Chris Bellfield, is the chief economist at the Joseph Rantntrery Foundation. It's the think tank that specifically studies inequality, responded by saying People can't wait ten years to see an improvement. that's why we need a plan for living standards that includes bold actions on rent costs, energy prices, social security and employment protections. Devolution is vital, but it cannot thrive that wholesale economic reform that fundamentally rethinks how we build household economic security. that's another incredibly important thing. I also think just in terms of the devolution, while I remember it, that is a really, really important thing and it could be really beneficial for the country. But we also need to that we need information on how we're going to fund it. Exactly. becausecause here's the problem constantly talking about how Birmingham the second biggest city in the country cououncselil is always on the verge of bankruptcy, right? be Damage to local government funding done by the first coalition of goovernment is absolutely incalculable, and its legacy continues to haunt us every single day, right? It really is important Devolution comes, an increased sense of where turnurning on some spending tabs and actually getting councils back up on their feet because it's all very well to empower them. But if they have no money, then what are they going to do with that power? That's kind of the issue. And that's I honestly, I would forgive Andy Burnham so much if he just said he would do wealth taxes. But anyway, moving past that, he's also agreed to stick to the fiscal rules. Where does that leave us There's also, I mean, I know it's only been his first speech, but there are these Some of the damaging policies, you know, you described one there, austerity, Brexit, another very, very damaging policy. how we going to fix that? So Yeah, that's right. Lots of really major questions to be to be asked In terms of youth unemployment, which is another huge thing. we talked about the Mildbne report a couple of weeks ago He said he's going to be setting out a significant response Again, we don't fully know what that's going to be. the reaction W sortive I guess you know I guess what you would expect, the Conservative Party and Reform UK were not fans Kemy Badenoock said that Berham was just offering convental naval solutions and that devolution was just a means for Westminster politicians to avoid difficult decisions. Robert Genick from Reform UK said that Berham's plans would take too long to implement and that it was not proposing cuts to welfare spending or immigration. Obviously Generick immediately go straight in on immigration.'s I don't know, I just I'm interested in people's different critiques of it. I've got such a low tolerance for criticisms for two ministers who were part of the last Conservative government. I have so little tolerance. Also, like Hgo Robert Genrick, not proposing anything to cut welfare spending. Well, how about we build a load of council houses and then we don't have to pay a fking housing benefit a load of landlords. Well how's that for a welfare reform? But oh no, that's not what you meant. Was it? You were like, I don't like single mums. Just say it. I just the amount of damage they've been out of power . two years. I know I know that they're like politicians, but and I know this is irrational. And obviously as the leader of the leader of the opposition, we need to hear from Tammy Biden knock on this I do think whenever anyone who's involved if the new conservative leader was twenty twenty four intake. and was coming to this fresh, I think Fire away, do whatever you want. Have at it But the fact that these two morons were in the last Conservative government who spent years desated like half of the problems we talk about every fucking week can be traced back to Decisions made by David Cameron, decisions made by Boris Johnson, decisions made by Liz Trus I have such li tolerance for it. Who else agrees with you? is Andy Burnham? he dedicated an amount of his speech to this, wasn't it about like, pololitics goes on as normal, nitpicking on each other. Meanwhile, everyones standard life has dropped and that's why people lose trust in politicians. So they go. You in Indy Burnham, which is the I don't know if people intend if it's genuinely a typo. Yeah. but I keep seeing people refer to him as ind indie. No, don't think's typo. I think that he loves indie music. He does. yeah. he loves man. I don't know if anyone's mentioned this live in bunch. Well, he was like at the beginning the speech being like, it' like my DJ sets. and I was like, goo on, say it, hang the DJ. You want to say it, Adie? just say it. It's quite difficult to be a centre left politician and directly quite morrisy at the moment., But it was in the Smith days, that's all loud,? I know. Morris's more recent output has You know, I've said it before, I'll say it again, There is a white that never goes out Ed Davy expressed support for Berham's broad aims, but skeptical. He said we deb families and cash trap councils need real change Sack Palansky the Green P party leader was doubtful whether Bernam would give councils the money they need. againain. so he Polansky said, rebalancing power is vital but what good of powers if you can't afford to use them. that returns to that idea of Local councils are so cashed out at the moment. Dave Duan who's the leader of the SNP said Bernam was making empty promises, whilst keeping Westminster's most damaging policies, Brexit austerity cuts and tory spending rules. And Runap Yorwth of Plied Comri,, the first Minister of Wales said number ten of the North will mean very little to the people of Wales. I think that Yeah, I think it's very important that talking about Dolution doesn't make that an English conversation. you know, if you're going to be the Prime M minister of the United Kingdom, he needs to also be speaking to and there was there was some of this in the speech, but he needs to also be speaking to the people of Wales, the people of Scotland and the people of Northern Ireland. And part of the reason he needs that is not just because he is the right thing to do But it is also electorally significant. You know, the Labour Party's fortunes have often Ris or Fallen with its success in Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland. Like it's really important that He speaks to those regions as well So this is the first of a series of broad stroke policy speeches that we can expect from Burnham before he is presumably appointed as the next prrime mininister in a matter of days, unless Al Kans has something to do with it. Will he stand to attention? Apparently that's a military frame stand to attention. I can't believe Be I really want there to be an actual contest. I think this is important for democracy and important for labour as a party And so I'm weirdly invested in Al Kant. I just want to send him messages anonymously and say We believe in you, Al, put yourself forward, do it, do it. justust so that there is someone who can force a contest. always India Al. I thought was can'. I did it they started writing about him as a Pip because he was in the arrmy. see any Labour politician has anything to do with the arrmy immediately becomes a labor leadership candid. Okay. So in kind of the b I think about a year in because he's twenty four intake about a year in I heard someone on the news talking about how, you know, maybe a leadership prospect in the future is someone like Al Khan. I thought it said Al Khan I thought there wass going be some A round guy. Yeah. Yeah.'s I mean his name was Al Khan. I'm sorry. I was a bit shocked when I saw a white guy. I miss I didn't hear the S The thought outcome is You don't hear of many Khanss called Al though, do you? I don't know, man. Like my family's from Karless. so there's always like there's so many Christians, There's always a loose like Joshua. L it is like it's It's not hugely surprising for me to hear like of initially I thought, okay, well if he's Al Khann, then maybe he's Ali Khan. Yeah, ize it Yeah then there's still calm there, which is quite anyyway anyyway let's move on. Breaking news on Pods over UK. Al Carnes is white I said I about CIR NS He's white So don't be thinking he's Asian. He's white. Okaykay. We can confirm Alcarnes' race. Coming up after the break, we'll be talking to journalist and campaigner Dale Zana Walton about the proposed social media ban for under sixteen s and her work raising awareness of the dangers of online harms Listen, American politics is serious, okay? It's about chronically algae filled White House reflecting pools and celebrating the country's two hundred fiftieth birthday in the UFC Octagon. It's about the seecretary of Homeland Security's husband taking a sexy selfie with giant fake cans. Put simply, it's no laughing matter. Nevertheless, America's number one late night political gay life comedy podcast drops every Wednesday and Friday In each episode, Pod Saave America co host Joh Lovever is joined on stage by comics, journals, politicians, and cultural guests, and occasionally me to break down the biggest stories in American politics with jokes, analysis and catharsis, but mostly jokes. Upcoming guests include the hilarious Margaret Cho, Jen Zed member of Congress, Maxwell Frost, and Brooklyn niney nine' Joe Latrudio Check out Love It or leave it now on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. Pod save the UK is brought to you by BT. We talk a lot on this show about the big things shaping Britain. 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It's that combination of reliability, resilience, and specialist expertise that's made BT the most trusted network, supporting more homes and businesses than any other. BT, behind Brilliant Things. Search Y BT to find out more This episode is brought you by Power Plays, an audio documentary series from the Human Rights Foundation This series is a five episode journey through the authoritarian history of the FIFA World Cup. fromr Mussolini's Italy in nineteen thirty four through the military junter in Argentina in nineteen seventy eight, Putin's Russia in twenty eighteen, Qatar in twenty twenty two, and looking ahead to the present and the future with the US in twenty twenty six, Morocco in twenty thirty and Saudi Arabia in twenty thirty four If you've been watching this year's World Cup and wondering how we ended up here, the corruption scandals, the price gouging, the political theatre, this show gives you the full picture into the history that allowed this to happen. And it goes back a lot further than Trump or Gianni Infantino The argument it makes is clear, FIFA isn't an organization being exploited by authoritarian regimes. At this point, FIFA, as an organization, has become exactly as authoritarian as the regimes it works with. This series shows you exactly how that happened. This is not a boycott campaign, by the way. The series comes from a place of love for football and the belief that when you love something You want to make it better. So watch the football, but also learn the story. Five episodes, all streaming now. seearch Power plays wherever you get your podcast Since the government announced their social media ban for under sixteenens, we've talked a lot on this show about what we think of that and potentially how it feels like we're punishing the wrong people and trying to work out how we should be tackling the whole thing if we're going to do it differently. So one thing we can all agree on is that excessive consumption of social media, frankly at any age, is harmful and it can have devastating consequences. Someone who has experienced this firsthand is journalist Adele Zana Walton. Her sister Amy took her own life in twenty twenty two aged twenty one. Amy had been struggling with her mental health but had also spent time on a pro suicide online forum, which her family now believe contributed to her death Since that time, Adele's been campaigning for greater online safety from protesting outside Ma HQ to confronting a tech billionaire at Davos. She's worked with families and survivors to prevent online suicide harm, and she regularly writes about online harms. She's also written a bestselling book called Lgging Off the Human Cost of O our Digital world. Adele, welcome to Pso the UK. Thank you for having me How did you break into Davil? Oh. Well, a colleague in the sort of tech justice space just like put it to me as an idea of like, would you be interested in going to Davos and just seeing who you might down there And I was like, yeah, sure, let's go for it. And to be honest, it was all very much divine synchronicity. Like I then was invited to speak on the New York Times panel. and just by chance it was about AI this year. So I was on the against side of the debate and another lot of people were on the pro AI debate and A few days before the debate happened, I was already in Switzerland and I received an email of the people who would be on the jury. And one of those people on the jury was a tech billionaire And I recognize his name immediately. His name's Matthew Prince and he's the CEO of Cloudflare And I only knew because of speaking to a law firm a few months before that, that Cloudflare provide a lot of the protection to the pro suicide forum that my sister was on. Yeah And just by chance we were going to be in the same room. So immediately I was like, I need to confront this guy and speak to him and tell him my story and Amy's story, basically. So yeah, it was all chance really. And And what happened when yould him It was mad. He was sort of before we went on stage to start the debate. he was front row He was on his phone and he wasn't chatting to anyone. so I was like, now is a good time for me to go over to him. So I went over to him. I was very calm, you know, like didn't want to come across aggressive or an attack in any way. And I honestly thought me sharing what happened to Amy might stir some sort of empathy in him And I sat down and I said hi, I'm taking part in the debate. This is me. I just wanted to ask you a few questions because I lost my sister to this website and I know that your company is involved in the protection of it. And immediately he just went bright red. And he just seized up as soon as I said the phrase pro suicide for him, and he denied it. He was like, that's not true, that's not true. And then he was looking around the room. he was like, that's saying, that's like saying he was trying to find some sort of analogy and he couldn't And I said, well, I know it's true because I've spoken to a law firm about this. They've done their background research on it And he was holding his phone and he goes What I'm going to do is have you removed And his fing was like hovering over, you know, I guess, like his security or something. And immediately I just said, there's no need for that I st step away and I just walked off and I burst into tears because I was really shocked at the You know, the so emotionally chared. Well done and conducting yourself with so dignity. o my goodness. And then we went on stage and did the debate and our team won. and my speech, it got a standing ovation. So I was very pleased because I shared in the speech about Amy's story and I drew parallels to Adam Rain the sixteen year old American teenager who took his life after using ChutyPT and ChutyPT encouraging to take his life. So I was like, you know Whilst my sister's story is different, there are real parallels. know, she was encouraged by humans and Adam was encouraged by a chatbot and we're still failing vulnerable people. So yeah more than one hundred and sixty deaths in the UK have been linked to this suicide forum. Right? And there are forty thousand members There's two million posts on it You cite a statistic that the risk of suicide related outcomes among teen girls who spend more than five hours a day on social media versus one hour a day is increased by sixty six percent demonstrable Measurable harms And we're seeing absolutely no sort of reaction to Yeah. seems seem it seems unfathomable that there wouldn't be a reaction to this. H hundredundred percent. And you know, that's why not only my family, but the other bereave families that I'm connected to now through this shared grief and trauma, we are sharing our stories publicly, know we would much rather privately grieve and go through that without having to go to the media and you share our loved ones' stories and their experiences. But we genuinely feel the only way to get change and a response from the government and from OcOM is to keep sounding the alarm and telling the stories over and over again And you know, so far, we've seen retty much little response from both the government and OCOM. OffcOom finally recently did find the forum nine hundred fifty thousand pounds, which was massive. but we don't know, they've issued that fine. We don't know what has happened since.. We don't know if that fine's been paid, it likely hasn't. The forum is still accessible despite that fine happening is still on Google. you know it's really highly ranked. Google, for example, has a duty of care, I believe, to deist the website to protect vulnerable people. But yeah, again, you know little action has been taken and It's it's It's grim because one hundred and sixty four victims and every few months we meet a new family And that is the cost of the government not acting on this. There are so many systematic failings in terms of families saying, look you know, we knew that they were on this website and then they've been drawn down this rabbit hole or police not investigating when it's a suicide because they just don't look at the devices and then you know its's case closed. And I think a lot of the inaction is down to a stigma still around suicide and people who end their life. Um, And I think, you know, only through continuing to talk about it Will we get any action? So what's the government's response been to the campaign so far? So we launched our campaign back in October last year And we put out a calls to the government for a public inquiry into this suicide forum because of the scale of harm that is caused in the UK, the number of UK victims, and also the links to other systematic failings, whether it's like mental health services, policing, that sort of thing. We a call to them to say we want a public inquiry. In March, we had a response from them saying they were rejecting the public inquiry calls. they weren't going to go ahead with it And with the support of Lee Day myself and I think it's eight other families are now taking the government to judicial review over that decision. So we're posing a legal challenge to them basically to change that decision to make sure that there is a public inquiry. But you know, I think it's just really painful that families are having to do this anyway are having to seek legal action and that legal action has a cost. You know, we are having to burden of the financial cost of taking the government to court, when actually if they just changed their decision and said, okay, look, we are going to investigate this, then we wouldn't have to do that. And I think a core reason why they've refused is because they recognize that there have been so many failings on their part And that's why they don't want to go ahead with the inquiry. But yeah, we're going to push for that U sorry We're going to push ahead with the public inquiry and the legal challenge and hopefully they will change their decision. And we are meeting with government ministers on the eighth of July, so quite soon to basically hear why that was their decision. Yeah So next week, eighth of July We mong tra. I guess if people Listening to those that are interested in writing to their MP. Yeah in the intervening. So we're recording on the first, you're listening to this at the earliest on the second of July if you have Te to do that between the second and the eighth of July is really be really worthwhile. Yeah, that'd be really, really helpful. You can just write to your MP and say you support the campaign by families and survivors to prevent online suicide harms to have a public inquiry into the suicide forum responsible for one hundred and sixty four UK victims I mean, as you say, Ofcom did eventually issue a fine My instinct on seeing that number, nine hundred fifty thousand it sounds like a lot, but probably not to these people. Probably not when you're looking at, I mean if you're talking about people at Davos and all the network of billionaires that are involved, it's a kind of a drop in the ocean. I did just want to for our listeners Mention the forum's response. so on the day of the announcement about this fine, the forum was unavailable, but its operator posted a page that said it was advocating for the right to access lawful information without government overreach. Th then quoted Mark Twain and said, censorship is telling a man he can't have a stak just because a baby can't chew it I mean, that really says it all when it comes to the people who are hosting this forum. The two men who created this website identify as in cells. They have four websites and the only one that women are allowed on is the pro suicide website. God My sister was found in a room with an American man who she met on this forum, who flew over to be in the room when she died My immediate reaction to knowing that from Thames Valley Police's investigation is that he is an inult and that men are seeking out vulnerable women on this forum to encourage them to end their lives to coerce them. And you know, I know from speaking to other bereave families, if you try and set up an account, for this website because now you have to basically apply to be a member of this website. If you try make an account and they ask, why is your reason for joining, If you say because I want to help people and direct them to support, they will not let you open an account It's a toxic breeding ground. This isn't a safe space. This isn't a place where people can come together and talk about their mental health openly, where they might not be able to offline. It's a place where people are being radicalized and encouraged and suicide is being glorified. And I think, you know you speak to anyone, Anyone would agree that that is wrong I know that this makes me sound like the oldest man in the world, but They are publishers Like tech companies have for so long maintained that they are software providers when they're asked about whether they should be regulated or not But then when it comes to presenting you know For example, presenting the nature of their companies to advertisers who might be able to They might be able to generate revenue from the back off They're very happy to claim that they're publishers. They've sort of hollowed out The publishing industry, the news media, they've completely decimated those business models And yah, You know, I don't want to sound much like I'm defending sort of legacy media. but in this instance, I absolutely am. If a newspaper was publishing This sort of information we would have legal mechanisms. to punish them for it. We would have the legal ability to stop So let's talk about the kind of regulations and what we're looking at the moment. What's your response to to the most significant piece of legislation that's happened on this is the under sixteen social media ban? Is this the right way to tackle this issue In short, no. Okay I, you know, I totally understand the public support for a social media ban. I understand that parents are really fearful and concerned about what their kids are consuming online. I'm concerned about it and I'm not even a parent The problem is that ban is often not enforceable. In Australia, eighty percent of kids can still get around the ban through VPN through other methods. you know This is a sort of classic whack a moole approach to harmful material and harmful platforms rather than regulating the product itself. Social media is a product. If we were, you know looking at another harmful product, say medicines or food or drinking water, we would make sure that before that product goes back out to market, it is safe by design And at the moment, we are not having that approach with big tech with social media companies. I think as well, politically, it felt like a very strategic thing for the Prime Minister to do just before the by election that was coming up. And I think K Stahmer was fearful about Andy Burnham's success and the momentum behind him And I think he thought that this would be a legacy announcement and a legacy policy decision But it will fail. it will fail vulnerable people, it will fail children. And you know, as well, this isn't a matter of On children, children are of course, the most vulnerable. but Mental health and online harms do not stop at sixteen. We know that. My sister was twenty one years old when she died. a lot of the other people who have lost loved ones have been over the age of sixteen. So as well doesn't recognize holistically that these types of harms will continue to happen. And my concern is sixteen, children will then be immersed into a digital world that is still unsafe that has still got harmful content everywhere. And if anything, they're going to be even less equipped to deal with that space. I mean, I have to say this is such an emotional subject. I mean while you've been speaking so articulately, I've just been extremely angry. I've just been sat here angry. I felt my stomach lurch when you told me that detail about the man in the room you visit. genuinely, just the instinct that came over me was like, find that man, find him, track him down internet, turn it off AI servers burn them with fire I get that impulse. And so I get as you say why this the polling around this ban is popular because there is it is so terrifying and it feels like The internet is this nuclear poison and any amount of exposure to it is harming people that you love. And of course You have to balance that with the good of the internet. And so I do hear it when people say, okay, sure, we think the internet's bad. but We do have to have a conversation about censorship, particularly if we're looking at issues around Palestine and shadow banning. How do we square those That circle. It's difficult because, you know, I think a lot of the arguments against the Oline Safety Act have come from that angle of, you know, this could lead to censorship from not only governments but also tech platforms And that quote, those fuckers put on the I censorship is. like that Oh, that this is the thing. I think they're free speech warrior st. Exactly. And you know, this this free speech idea and justification has been a free pass to the tech company to get away with their crimes against humanity over and over again, whether it's you know Facebook's role in the genocide in Myanmar, or you know meta platforms amplifying pro Zionist content online and systematically censoring pro Palestine voices Palestinian people in general, you know, I think that tells us Free speech doesn't exist in these silos anyway. You know, social media platforms are not neutral spaces. They're not apolitical spaces. They are extremely influenced and shaped by the people that own them. And the people that own them have very close ties to the US. government, Israeli government, you know, And that shapes what we see, the discourses that get amplified. And so you know, I think sometimes our worries about regulation can be ized by big tech in their own interests. And I would say that regulating to make sure that harmful content is not spread, that you know teen boys aren't being promoted misogyny content, teen girls aren't being promoted pro anal content. I would say that First and foremost, our fundamental right is our right to life and that needs to be protected first. and then the other rights come secondary to that And yeah, that's my my song because that was the criticism of age verification. wasas that actually this approach would mean that the stuff that The support pages around eating disorders, the support pages to direct people away from suicide forums would also be banned and would also be caught up in it Do you think that stands up to scrutiny that argument I don't think so because Content that promotes support is not the stuff that the algorithm boosts anyway These algorithms are designed to keep us scrolling. and what is most engaging is the harmful content, It's the devices's content, it's the upsetting content. And that consistently research shows that that we because we're humans, we have a negativity bias, we're drawn towards the more harmful, dangerous content. So whilst I recognize that, you know There are support pages on Instagram. There are communities that uplift and empower Those spaces aren't being platformed anyway by these platforms because they're not as engaging for users. They're not as addictive. And as a result of that addictive design, that's why we have so many of the harmful consequences that we do U yeah Listen, I've had my own dealings with these companies you know, we've A man was literally threatening to come and murder me and they were literally like, we can't do anything. We don't know anything. We know nothing.. You know these are people that could like profile that have profiled us all individually down to the kind of type of toothpaste we want to buy. Like they know every piece of information about us and yet when it came to actually doing something like that, I think the two things that you said That so this it's so important. talk about these things as products because sometimes I really love that word choice, right? And it's obviously very deliberate on your part. because sometimes when we talk about these things, we talk about them like they're tidal waves. you know, we keep talking about, you know tech is inevitable. we talk about it like it's L it's a force of nature It's not It's a string of products. Yeah. It's products sold by companies. And we can regulate products that are sold by companies. And also the other thing I think is this idea of free speech is so interesting because It's so important that you've highlighted the idea that we don't operate in an atmosphere of free speech. If you look at the Trump inauguration, you see Zuckerberg and Musk s on the front row What do you think is going on here? What do you think is happening? But yeah, I think Yeah, I just I find it, I find the way that we talk about it. We we help propagate a mystique around these people, they're not. Nerds. And not the good kind ye. And then all men. Yeah. Always men years ago, I wrote a piece I was bagging on T Nishberg because I'mbsessed with it. But I wrote this piece years ago just about like there was a piece in the New York Times about how abusive ex boyfriends were using smart technology in homes torment their girlriends. p. Do you remember that pie? So look at that film gaslight where the guy tries to make the woman believe that she's mad by like changing the gaslight in the lights. I mean, that's quite literally what these abusive partners were doing. Anyway, so I ended up looking into it to see if it was happening in the UK. And some of the stories that I unearthed really just gave me the chills. it shocked me how easy it was to do. If you had someone's WiFi password, could you used to date them or because you popp around there once or whatever You can take over their entire home. we know who's going to do it. It's going to be men to women. We know who dominates technology, it's men. And it just really ever since that I've just thought to myself, of course, women's safety, off course children's safety doesn't matter to these people. I mean, that's not to say That there's not know that you know, I'm not trying to do my Hillary Clinton moment being like, it should be women dropping the bombs l.m not trying to do that. But at the same time, you can smell it, cann't you? The patriarchy is embedded in these products so deeply. In the book, you say technology can never be neutral. and you cite specifically with the case of Gaza Human Rights Watch who found that meta systematically censored Palestinian solidarity voices Between October and November of twenty twenty three, there were a thousand plus cases of walz. you describe as algorithmic censorship And sometimes those kind of things are abbstracted and difficult for us to conceptualize, but then last month On stage at the Hay Festival, the Facebook whistleblower Sarah Wynne Williams who wrote this book, Careless People. following legal action by Meta was unable to speak. So they had this extraordinary event where Carol Cadwalader had her on stay. And she just had to sit silently while there was a conversation had across her. And that's because of meta You know, it's the most old fashioned thing in the world. We keep talking about these people like there new phenomenon. This's the most old fashioned thing in the world. Power, money. That's all it comes down to. And' Do you think that in some ways that's helpful? peopleeople being able to see that a woman just had to sit in total silence because of legal action by company? Is that Is there something helpful about that for people to understand? one hundred percent, I think it makes it tangible for people, you know And I think I was reading the comments on one of the videos of that. and people were saying, oh, I was never gonna to buy this, but now I am. I was not interested in this topic, but now I am. So you know, I think people are recognizing just how much power these companies have seeeeing that in the flesh rather than through a screen is of course more powerful. And again, you know it shows that these companies do not care about free speech. Free speech is not free speech, it's their speech. It's what they want to amplify, what they want to be shared. So yeah, I think that moment was really, really powerful. And I loved how Carol Kadwallado was sort of like You know, blink once if you can hear Bink twice if you think Mark Zuckerberg's an arhle. I was like, yes. Carol has been writing about this shit for, you know a full decade now. so much of what we talk she has been trying to warn us about this kind of stuff for so many years. and She her work was denigrated by so many people who I guess like theoretically should know better. L someone like Andrew Neil believe called a Carol Codswallop. a remark I believe he was forced to apologize for. but She has been trying to warn us about this kind of stuff for years and years and years in terms of I always feels strange to talk about this because he's been an MP for about twenty five minutes Given that Andy Burnham seems to be the de facto prime Minister of this country Are you concerned or is this me being over paranoid? Are you concerned by the appointment of James Pernell as his chief of staff because Jobespinner was until very recently, the CEO of lobbying firm that counted amongst its clients, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, app. Basically Yeah as we've talked about. all the companies. The fact that I call them countries, I think is probably quite probably quite it's probably quite a clear freuded slip, we should just briefly say to cover ourselves off U The company that Jones Piner works for is Flint Global I'm And they've got a range of interests and policy challenges presumably lobbying around. James Penne has said that he's given up his shares in the company and has said this will be the end of his relationship with the firm, right? That's the that's the official party line we've covered ourselves off. But A you concerned about that? Was that me being a left wingy paranoid left wing conspiracy? No, for sure, I'm really concerned. I was like T two things can be true. I was really hopeful about Andy until that And then I was like, o, because you know, he's been very vocal about growth for the general public. you know, regulation being something that is necessary for innovation, not at odds with innovation. know in his piece recently for the Times, it was sort of a rebuttal towards Tony Blair. And you know he was really vocal about how we need to rein in big tech There's only so much that saying all of that will actually land in practice, in policy decisions when someone like that is the chief of staff. know this is an unelected position. you know, how are we going to hold him to account? I don't know. And what are his vested interests? And this is the problem that we come up against now and I've sort of witnessed through my my journey of like starting in online safety campaigning in twenty twenty two, you know, meeting with various MPs and ministers in DC And you know the things that they tell us as Breave families, it's always we're on your side. You know, this is awful, this is shocking. But then in practice, they're not regulating these companies. They are very close. A Guardian investigation earlier this year found that on average, the UK government ministers are meeting company lobbyists every single day. And that really overshadows the amount that online safety campaigners but also think tanks are meeting you know then government ministers advising on the decisions that they should be taking. you know if we're going back to the ban for under sixteen s, I think that is a a sort of classic example of a performative action, a performative political action that is symbolic. You know, it looks like we're making progress. It looks like we are going to keep kids safe online. but in practice Tech lobbyists are still meeting with our government all the time. And you know, what is the coming wave of harm It's AI chatbots. It's the unregulated nature of artificial intelligence and chatbots in particular I'm very concerned about because they are basically the next and most addictive form of a social media in that they are more engaging, more lucrative, more exploitative of our emotions and our vulnerabilities And that's where I'm concerned that the next wave of harm and loss of life is coming, essentially. Yeah, it worries me that you're worried about that kind of stuff because I'm worried about that stuff, but I am sort of You know increasingly deranged between conspiracy theorist. So like for me, I'm constantly like they're all they're all up to their eyeballs in money. I've I've just got full Thomas Pinchin about liberty. But you know, it's really like it's upsetting for me as well because I've always been very political. Both my parents are left wing. I've I've been raised in a very opinionated household and I've followed politics since I was a teenager. and only now Am I starting to feel really disillusioned? really disillusioned by it. And I think that has come directly from that lived experience of like When I first met an MP in twenty twenty two, I was thinking what government was that? likeike which party was it? And I can't remember because actually they are Consistently doing the same as each other. And that is really disappointing. and that only fuels this sort of like apathy and political apathy that is bred and fueled on social media as well. So I'm feeling pretty hopeless and despairing about it, but what I really think will make a difference is if there is much more collective public pressure on our government to say that This is not okay. This close relationship and these vested interests with big tech companies is not okay. Make the decisions of regulating and you know policy reform in our interests and not in Silicon Valley's interests. So like on the conversation of regulation I mean, I agree that it absolutely has to be regulation goingo back to that story about abuses in smart tech, you know, I talked to people that were involved with the design of the like safety what is it called again? The safety byy Design Code of prractice. but you know, it's voluntary. You don't have to do it Yeah. And like you know, as a consumer, if I'm buying I' just making it up now like a smart toaster and it this safety by design I probably would say, all right, I'll use that because I know that no exis is going to psychologically torment me with in the future So that's just my take on it. But I wanted to hear from you if there are any solutions outside of regulation that people can go for. So this is a slight tangent, but I remember reading about how China had set up its own dating apps because it knew that People wanted to be on dating apps, but it didn't trust the companies because fundamentally they're designed to keep you addicted. They're not actually meant to pair you up. That's not how it works. they can't make money like that. So they did their own. I'm not sure if I would sign up to my state pairing. I'm sure that' what go It did make me think Could new creators come into the space? couldould that work? Could the government support healthy tech companies be rivals? Could that work? What are things we could do? Be it is very clear to me that the UK government is afraid of big tech, notot least because they're afraid of America So what else could be done? Yeah. No, for sure. I think and you know, you mentioned like alternatives to these mainstream platforms that we use. You know a big part of this problem is the monopoly that these companies have. And if we don't use the alternatives, we will lose them. L use it or lose it. Like I love that phrase and I think it rings true in this case, but also in the case of us like also desentering the role that these platforms occupy in our lives. And you know on the journey of writing logging off, I went on my own sort of internal journey off like how dependent am I on these platforms and where Can I wean myself off? I do think a big part of it is that a lot of us are passively scrolling. A lot of us are passively using these platforms. And of course, we all experience that addictive nature of them, but we need to be self critical as well and self aware. And I think unless we desenter the chokehold that they have over all of us then we are going to fail to hold them to account and to see and support alternative options arising as well. So yeah And also don't buy smart toasters. You don't need smart toasters. You Pots say the UK is brought to you today by toasters. There's nothing wrong with toasters.. We don't need one with a fucking iPad wedged into it. If we E this show, I'm gonna make random toasts in that' It won't be actually. My toaster iss dumb as hell. You know what my toaster does It turn bread into toast. Thatute war you of toast. I'm so sad. Just quickly though on I know we mentioned the safety By Design Code of coonduct, just to be clear for our listeners about what it is Am I right in thinking so it's It's a Aictive features like A tolay, infinite scrolls are turned off. Children's accounts are private by default tested for things like abuse and domestic violence, what else would there be in this I think that covers it, but I think another element of safety by design is having trauma informed design principles. And that was something that when I was writing the book and I wrote a chapter on misogyny and similar to the sort of smart harassment that you wrote about, I interviewed someone who is a victim of that and spoke to refuge as well who deal with a lot of these cases And they said that one of the most important things would be trauma informed design. And how you have that is having people with lived experience in the design process from the beginning rather than us having a sort of reactive approach to the harms that are coming as a result of technologies being rushed to market, you know actually having people with lived experience advising the design process and saying, well, you know, I've had this experience of my ex harassing me in this way. So how are there ways that you can embed, you know preventative measures or turn off that feature because I know that that could be weaponized? I mean, look at you know metas AI smark glasses that have just recently been released. it's just embarrassing, isn't it? And like Kylie Jenner being now the poster childild of that new tech product, I think. I think that's a very strategic decision from Ma to have someone like that who is that influential, especially among young women, at a time when young women know that they are likely going to be the victims of the harassment that is coming as a result of this product So yeah, I did I saw an advert for the Ray Ban metglasses and I thought it was very telling that it was a young woman wearing them. And I thought you know, you' like that's interesting because As soon as you hear about that, you think that's a harassment Yeah nightmare. that's happen. Yeah it's waiting to happen. But okay, so we We've got to use the alternatives or lose the alternatives. That's an important point. more kind of trauma informed saafety by design as part of the code of practice of these companies But then the third thing here is regulation, right? What does that's the key thing here because You've got these kind of monolithic companies, you've got meta, you've got X or whatever itter is called now, you've got these kind of huge monolithic things. What does actual meaningful regulation look like? Because if we're establishing that the under sixteen ban is potentially ineffective and essentially sort of dug ducking the real problem. Yeah. What does actual meaningful regulation look like to you? as somebody who You know, we're talking about a potential Andy Berdam government. Yeah You're the sort of person I would have hoped he would bring in to help craft tech policy, right? A I'm available. We're putting that out right now. She's available This podcast is brought to you by Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe. 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Track your chhingings from every channel, Ride in one spot, and turn real time reporting into big time opportunities. Take your business to a whole new level Switch to Shopify Start your free trial today So say he calls you tomorrow. Yeah. What are you to tell him? What are you going to tell him about regulation? You know, we've talked a lot about safety by design, so I don't want to linger on that too much anymore, but that is obviously the core thing I want tech companies to be taxed a whole lot more They are paying hardly any tax and that tax could be used to be poured into and invested into the services that we need as a result of the hms, know, whether it's youth mental health services, whether it's third spaces that we don't have anymore to go and log off, They need to be taxed a whole lot more because we are making them so much money and they are investing basically nothing back into our society We also need break up the relationship and challenge the relationship between big tech and our government. And I think, you know, maybe that's not going to come as a result of an internal policy decision, but that's why I'm so I stress so much that the general public need to be writing to their MPs saying that they are concerned about this. You know Beban Kidrren has been an amazing champion in the House of Lords. when it comes to regulating and reining in the powers of Big tech. I know that she's been really active not only in child safety, but also in the copyright law issue when it comes to generative AI and the fact that generative AI models are scraping all of our work as creative workers, whether you're a musician, actor, writer. and she's been really, really active in that. And we need to be behind the people the allies that we do have in Parliament, because we do have allies. We need to be behind them. and Also, I would love to see, you know even more People with larger platforms, celebrities, influencers actors, sayinging that we need to challenge this relationship and saying that we need a future where big tech doesn't govern our country becausecause that is what we are going towards. but instead we govern bigig tech. And we as digital citizens, which we all are now, we get to co create the digital world that we live in Um, you know, O other suggestions that people have said and that I've heard, and this isn't my area of expertise, but investing in K based tech companies. Yes. I've heard this. You know like it seems like sometimes we forget when it comes to big tech, we forget the solutions that have existed before. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. We can just apply the same logic to other industries, invvesting in local local local initiatives, local companies and also Nationalizing a lot of these companies, like making that happen, I think is really important. But I do think, yeah, we've been slow to sort of apply the same tactics that exist to this industry. And another thing I think we've been slow as consumers to do is like boycott. L we can boycott, we can organize, we can collectively say You know what? let's all delete RX, which I did recently. And if we did that, do think we would see real results. And one more thing is like Ciminal Criminal liability. Where is the criminal liability for these tech companies who have caused such Irreparable, like harm, like societal harm An individual any other individual was causing the harm that we are seeing as a result of these companies and the lack of regulation of them, they would be in prison, but we don't have that same approach to these individuals And I don't know why that is, but that's something that needs to change I keep talking about toott obsessed with this book. when U plue was asked about AI models. when he was a sort of u, Book event promote a book he'd written called How to saave the Internet He said that enforcing copyright laws. from artists and musicians and paints or whatever basically kill the AI industry overnight ood. dont You don't have an industry. If enforcing laws kills your industry, then you don't have an industry. I'm sorry. it's nonsense. Yeah. so I mean D you I know you said that you sort of you felt increasingly disenfranchised and despairing Is this a winnable war? The show for sure. It is. like I wouldn't be continuing to do the work if I didn't think it was. And I think Since Trump's inauuration, like collective awareness of this issue has drastically changed and that's brilliant to see. you know You hear about it every day. Everyone is talking about this issue because it is the single biggest issue facing all of our lives. If we care about any other issue on our lives, whether it's climate justice, racial justice wealth inequality All of those issues will be stunted if we do not fix and rein in Silicon Valley and big tax interests. And I do think it's possible because of the mass concern that exists. but I think you know that is the sort of dilemma here is that an individual level, people don't feel that they have agency or people don't feel that they can challenge big debt power, but there are so many things that we can do. and even the smaller actions boycots for a day or deleting the account or you know getting together offline in your community, organizing an offline event and saying with your friends and family, everyone, leave your phones at home, changing the norms and the culture that we have around social media and the addictive use of social media and the dependency that we've sort of all collectively Yes, we have been pushed into it, but we have we have accepted it. you know. we do have massive a massive part to play in challenging that. And We do have a lot of power, but if it's left to beref families and campaigners who have experienced other harms Yeah The progress is going to be so slow that we're not going to catch up you know, the coming wave and that's what we need. We had Ben Rhodes on the show last week and he was talking about his suggestions for what Andy Burnham could do and he talked about like, you know, pick a fight with Tony Blair to show you when to change the Labour Party, but also pick a fight with Donald Trump And there is was a part I've been thinking about that all week being like that is so clever. M of Andy Burnham was like, rightight, that's it enough. We're not having any more of this being scared of America anymore. And hiss mates, Yzuckerberergs, your Elon Muskks, your Bezos. you're not welcome here. I think that would go down really, really well. I mean we know from the feeling of the social media band how popular it is. Yeah that these are clearly platforms and products and billionaires behind it that we identify as a society as villains, like we actually do and it's so Aside from the human cost of it it's so politically Yeah no And what's really interesting actually, polling came out in June that shows that this is a shared view across the political spectrum that the UK public wants more regulation off U.S. tech billionaires. And was done it was like polling done by this organization called diffusion. And they specifically were looking at AI regulation and the general public's attitudes to that. And I think it's really interesting that raining in billionairesres unites people who would vote reform, but it also unites people who would vote green and all across the spectrum. And so I think you know it is in Andy's interests, in any politiciian's interests to take a stance against big tech I unless of course, they are being, you know, bankrolled by big tech And I think that's where politicians like Nigel Farage are obviously not going to be the ones vocally challenging these billionaires because again, they have vested interests and Social media platforms have amplified far right hate They've amplified far right narratives, they've polarised us as you know society. and that Therefore, you know that is why the far right, across not only in the UK, across Europe, in America, far right politicians have those vested interests. So yeah, I think it's really important that Andy takes a strong stance and hires you. And you're listening, Burnham, She is available. Are you from Manchester? My dad is. There we go. Yeah That's very important. Yeah. She's evidently qualified. Her dad's from Manchester. Let's get her in Adele, thank you so much for joining on Ponvi. Thank you for having me That's it. thanks so much for listening to Pods over the UK. Tickets my UK tour and Ireland and Ireland tour are available at nishcomardot com dot Uk