Brexit and Future Relations

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Andy Burnham and anybody else who wants to be the next Labour leader to a contest. be our next Prime minister The man who describes himself as this kid from a council estate in Stepnear East London made a call to arms in his resignation speech in the House of Commons asking the country to fight for a better future for the young in particular And telling his party they needed to recognise the country faces an emergency, urgency is now required steting. Welcome back to pololitical thinking. Thank you for having me It sounded to me Listening and watching. to your resignation speech. is if you wanted to say to your party to the country, This isn't just a battle for whose bomb is on the back seat of a ministerial car or the prime ministerial car This is a battle Britain Is that right That's absolutely right. I feel that in Britain at the moment, there's a sense of pessimism in the air. I fear that Things won't get better The if left unchecked and unanswered risk sliding into fatalism, a conviction that things canan't get better And that's a dangerous place for a country to be becausecause when people believe that Change isn't possible they stop demanding it. And when they stop demanding it dececline does become inevitable And We sit at the moment in a turbulent and dangerous world where it's not yet clear whether democracy or tyranny will triumph in the twenty first century. So we've got this big global battle and instability, which is also a clash of ideas and a set of values. And we're seeing that play out domestically too The crisis in Iran, for example you know, the long tail economic consequences of that are going to be painful for our country. They have weathered so many crises before over now twenty years from the financial crash through to the pandemic through to the wars in Iran and Ukraine We need to summon Blitz spirit in this country The people will respond, but they have to believe it's in pursuit of something bigger and better. Blit spirit, democracy versus tyranny, are you consciously saying to the country This is a nineteen thirties bone I certainly feel that there are Dart forces of nationalism are at play that we haven't seen in this country for decades We see that with the rise in racism hatred directed against notot just bllack Canadian people, but Muslims and Jews on the streets of our towns and cities There is definitely something in the air that I think is reminiscent of those times I also think that The thing that has been fundamentally broken in this country is a social contract that says the next generation will do better than the last And for throughout our modern history, that has been true until now. And young people can feel it. and in my resignation speech in the House of Commons, I cited an opinion poll that showed around half of young people saying that they wouldn't be prepared to fight for this country if the moment required it. Now I don't actually believe the findings of that poll actually. I think Young people have shown that they would respond cause is just and the need is there. They will do that. We saw that during the pandemic when young people did make big sacrifices as the group of people least at risk of the virus to protect older generations. What have we given them in return We've shhort change them on their educational recovery. predecessors did. We've layered them up with debt They struggled to get on the housing ladder cost of living in it is high We're not addressing the technological unemployment we're beginning to see. So I just think if If this country And if our politics can't leave Britain better for the next generation what the hell are we doing? and that is that for me You know, as you know, Nick, my driving mission in politics has always been to make sure that more kids from working class backgrounds like mine have the same choices and chances and security and opportunities as those in the most privileged backgrounds. I want to talk about that background. I want to talk about what the offer where treating would be. But before we do Battle for Britain, you say it is. talk about the Blitz spirit In your common speech, you use the phrase gathering storm The title of Winston Churchill's history of the events leading to World War II Is this deliberate? I mean, Winston Churchill warned people that they should listen to him and his warnings about what lay ahead He warned of the weakness of the virtuous enabling the malice of the wicked in that book The Gathering Storm Is that what you think is a danger now Funny enough, I didn't think I didn't have Church in mind I did have the most recent set of election results in this country which are unprecedented on two levels, unprecedented for the Labour Party in terms of the extent of the defeat we suffered but also unprecedented for the UK. Because for the first time in the history of this country Nationalists are in power in every corner of the United Kingdom And in the case of Scottish nationalism, Welsh nationalism they would break our country apart. So there's an existential threat to the UK But in Nigel Farage and Reform, you have an English nationalism now, which I think is an affront to the values that have made this country great, especially in the greatest institution this country built, the National Health Service, which I've been proud to lead. There's another phrase that Churchill used In the gathering storm, he warned that pursuing what he called a safe middle course can lead directly to disaster Is that what W're streeting is saying? If we carry on as the Labour partarty as we are disaster looms Yes. I mean, I think what we've What we've achieved in government in the last couple of years I could I could list and I could list those things proudly The tragedy is the country would be able to list our mistakes more easily than our achievements But ultimately, Are we making? Big enough choices A we? bold enough on the things that need to change to create a stronger country at home. and a more resilient country abroad? No, I don't think we are. Now you mentioned your family and your upbringing. You've talked to me before on political thinking. about the Wes dad test. The fact that your dad, unlike your mum, I might say, was a lifelong toory pub landlord, a cabby, a car salesman who only voted Labour when streeting was on the ballot paper. You've talked about your granddad Bill. He he say was your closest friend and biggest influence, also a lifelong Tourory, a Royal Naval veteran is what's got wrong that the Labour Party isn't appealing to people like them if only that were if only it were that simple because that's been Labour's traditional challenge is we've tended when we've been in opposition to consolidate our base but struggle to reach to those voters in the center ground who the floating voters who decide who wins elections. The tragedy of Labour's position today is that not only would we lose those centre ground voters who are still up for grabs by the way. there are a lot of middle of the road one nation Tory tyes who feel abandoned by Kemmy Badenock and aronted by Farraage who feel politically homeless But we have also seen faceed to set against this challenge of fararage and reform kind of division that they represent, the threat to the NHS, all of the things that motivate us as progressives in politics When crunches come to the crunch too many of our own progressive supporters have not seen labour as the route to stop reform. So in Gorton and Denton, they voted green. In the Kaffilly by election for the Welsh Senetith, they voted for Plyde Comy So Labour faces a fight on two fronts We're losing the sort of the traditional floating voter that we need in order to win elections and where we tend to have to kind of reach out into the center ground, but we're also losing our progressive base and that's because we lack definition People don't know what we stand for. And you know, as I said to the Prime Minister, you know, my letter and privately is this is a government that lacks definition but also direction and vision And when people don't know who you are and what you stand for They don't vote for you. And so the question is missing on so many fronts, both the question but also theave you resigned Why don't you just challenge him talk about a labour leadership ganda. You could have triggered a contest S peopleople say he's not done it because he hasn't got the votes. He hasn't got the support? Well, actually, I've got wind when did I resign. It was you know last week. So I got wind a couple of days before Andy Burnham had found a seat and talking to my colleagues in the Parliamentary partarty in particular It was clear that if we had been plunged straight into a leadership contest by me or for that matter, anyone else. I think it would have been seen as a deliberate attempt to get ahead of. Andy Burnham's potential return And if there's one thing that we need to do coming out of a change in leadership It is to bring the tribes of the Labour Party together to unite around one leader as one team, drawing on Labour's different political traditions to unite progressives and beat reform. And to be clear, you're saying you could have done it. I could not could be in a leadership contest now. and I think I would have been accused of foul play by trying to rule out someone who is objectively And that's why I think he will win the Makerfield by election in that resignation letter you mentioned You said, we need vision, we have a vacuum. Wh we need direction, we have drift I thought probablyrobably lots of political observers thought when he stands up and gives H resignation speech, Wes Streeting will spell out why he had to resign. why Kia Starmer frustrated him, didn't go along with the things he wanted to do You didn't give a single example Is that because you haven't got any examples Or are you keeping quiet because you don't want to be accused of rocking the boat even further I think it's clear the Prime Minister isn't going to lead us into the next general election I think we're much better off focusing on the future rather than relitigating the past There have definitely been frustrations. There have been frustrations on individual policy areas. Can you give us an example? Well, let's take my old brief of and social care whileile there are some important things we've done on social care in the last couple of years, both in terms of the investment, but also expansion of the carearer's allowance and The disabled Facilities grant increases fell well short of my ambitions as the Secretary of State for Social Care and the shhadow Secretary of State. So in the run ups to the general election You know, I was clear that I wanted us to legislate for a national care service to start that. process in this Parliament. I thought it was a big endeavour. I didn't think we could do everything all at once, but that was the ambition that that I set out ident M the phrase incidentally first used by a formerertain Andy Burnham, my labour predecessor I reported on it on the news That's how long this has been kicking around. And before the general election I said I wanted to Go further on social care I wanted to go after the private equity owned care homes who were Ching money that's desperately needed from the social care sector wanted that in the manifesto that was blocked. And then basasically thought, okay careful We're going to be in the same position as the governments of Gordon Brown, David Cameron and all of the others who came along He said they wanted to tackle social care, but the politics moved against them. And so I fought for what we now have, which is the Casey Commission and I knew that in order to shift the politics on social care and to break through on what I think is one of the big generational challenges facing this country that I needed to create a vehicle to do that and get one of Whitehall's best known doers because even the might of numberum ten in the Treasury was struggled to take on the formidable Louise Casey. I hear you say that you want to talk about the future and we will because you've set out an interesting agenda in that resignation speech But you did say just a few days ago We had, you said, talking of the Labour Party, a dishonest leadership contest followed by an over cautiousness in opposition Dishonest But why Well, I mean, when those ten pledges dropped through my letter box as a Labour Party member. I took one look at them and thought these ain't going to happen And I understand what Kir Stan was trying to do, meet the Labour membership where they were, post Corbyn and lead them on a journey back to government and he succeeded in that and that was a considerable achievement so I don't want sound too critical But I have a different approach. My Every election in Iverford North I've put on my leaflets and in put my newsletters in between. You may not always agree with me, but you'll always know where I stand. And I think that's important because change begins with an argument And you have to set out your stall and you have to make a case to people. about What's wrong? and what you want to do about it. And Kar Starment just wasn't open at that stage with what was necessary and he was't open during the general election either, was he about increasing tax, for example, and the inevitability of that? Well, we were definitely I think we're definitely overcautious in opposition and there's a ' been this and this I don't want to put this all on here in the team in opposition because there has been this I think relatively modern development in politics where the moment someone suggests the German an ide German of an idea opponents sees it find the most expensive version of it and then slap it on a spreadsheet of doom and say, look at all of Labours or the Tories or anyone else's uncosted spending commitments. And it kills the debate about ideas, it stops people flying kites And that is that was suffocating in opposition. It meant we didn't have the quality of debate we needed order to have a program for government that was able to hit the ground running consistently across the board when we came in. and that's carried into government. If I think about you know, Josh McAallister Brand new MP for White Haven and Workington well known for his work on children's social care before becoming an MP. puts forward a private memberss bill, floating banning mobile phones and schools rather than being told, Well, that's good. That is the zeitgeist of every parents WhatsApp group. This is parents anxiety, the teachers's anxiety, young people's anxiety. Let's fly a kite on it, see how it goes. well done for picking a salient issue And he was scolded for it And told that you know we don' don' we don't want you know these sorts of ideas popping up. That's not the line. that's not the policy. I can hear the Prime Minister who is here saying, look politics isn't about clever soundbites and good speeches and positioning and politics politics is about good ideas and I would say it's about getting things done is the man Who this week has been able to say? look at all the things we've done British railwways, a new nationalised railway producing its first train. We've got measures to deal with the cost of living. What Wes Streeting wants is to Give talks, give speeches No, I don't agree with that. and my record certainly says something else and we'll come onto that, but I'm sure, but lookook the you can't just be a time when this country is already feeling the impact of big global trends, the The biggest technological industrial revolution in the history of the world climate change global instability, economic shockwaves You can't just be the maintenance department of the country. J going aroundound kind of fixing things here and there and tinkering here and there You have to set out what it is you're doing why you're doing it. becausecause otherwise those significant achievements you've just mentioned, Nick, they disappear in a shopping list that no one can remember because you lack a story about who you are, what you're for, and how those things ladder up to something bigger that give people hope and confidence that the country is moving in the right direction. And yeah, I had a guest on this political thinking podcast who you said to me One of the things that makes The job of being cabinet hell of a lot easier is a Pime Mister iss about the long term who rejects government by gimmage who rejects short term sticking plasters How was you? You sent that to me No know what, we just kind of spinning at the time? Is that what you had to say Or did something change Bween the last time we had a conversation like this, less than two years ago, And now Well, I was certainly enthused by this idea of like mission driven government where you accept that there are big challenges facing the country You can't tackle them without government, Government can't do it alone. Where are they that the architecture for it was abandoned. We don't talk about them anymore. Our politics and government has gotten smaller, not bigger And then ask for decision making. And I think this is a common complaint across the government long term thinking about the long term should not mean waiting long term for decisions to be made and for direction to be given And sometimes the Prime Mister complains that we're not changing the country fast enough but he doesn't drive And this one thing that I learned as the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, leading the largest public service in the world is that every day you have to fight, every day you have to drive, And the progress that we've made on waiting lists, on ambulance response times, on A and E performance didn't happen by accident and it didn't happen just because more money went in. It happened because investment was matched with modernisation and a sharp focus on delivery. And we've set out to the whole system one and a half million people what we were driving at, where we were going, what the direction was. And the government as a whole lacks that. And when you've when you told him? Yeah, I mean, when you met, k' arma Yeah I'm not going to give chapter and verse on. And you what How long were you in the room? Beuse you're only in the building, sixteen minutes. How long were you in the room? Yeah know, if it was timed, it felt like longer. I'm not going to I think it would be disrespectful to someone you told him Yeah, and that is part of my frustration. I was very honest with the Prime Minister privately about where I thought the government was going wrong. as have other cabinet colleagues been, as have other ministers been, as have a quarter of our parliamentary party who signed a public statement You know, we did you tell them him I'm going to challenge you? Yes And I did he say there's no need, I'll change I don't want to get into the what he said and what I said, I don't think that's fair or respectful. but You know what if honestly, Nick, if I felt the Prime Minister going to change and things would be different then I would have would have being happy more than happy to stay doing the job that I loved because I'm not, you know, I'm not going to pretend that The last week has been easy or that leaving a job that I love with all my heart has not been an emotional wrench. because I loved being the health secretary of this country. I wanted to outperform Jeremy Hunt as the longest serving health secretary. I knew what I wanted to do, and I knew what I wanted to do in this term. I had an eye on what we would do in our second term if we were privileged enough to be there and and Leaving that. You know what sort of lehind has been shouting at the radio on the TV now Why they come off it? They're saying he's wanted to be Prime Minister pretty much since he was in his Pam. A few years back, the comedian Matt Ford produced a video Asking New politicians who's going to be Prime Minister in ten years and all your friends in the Labour Party? All of them, despite the fact, I'm sure they didn't think it, said Jeremy Corbyn, who was the leader of the Labour Party at the moment. Who was the one person who said Probably me. Yeah, that's because I' have an occasional tendency to be a comedian and that's really annoying in moments like this But you have wanted your whole life to be Prime Minister I don't think there's anything wr wrong in ambition. I don't mind saying though I You know, and I've said this to Kid before The more you see the job up close There's there's a There is a there is a there is a kind of an inverse kind of you know relationship where the close the more you see the job, the more you think largely. That's a hard job. So I'm under no illusion about what it is that I'm asking to do. But is ambitious managed by the qualities, the experience to do it. because if my dad, not your dad were still alive He would be saying to me, he's never had a real job I mean, this guy has been a politician all his life. He was a student politician, then he was a politician arguing for gay rights, then he was a counsellor, then he became a labour MP. He's barely been at the cabinet. Certainly I've done it for two years and now he wants to be Pime Minister. Why does he wait a bit till he's actually run something Andy Burnham's run Manchester Kir Stam has run the Labour Party and the country You've not run anything. That critique really grinds my gears for a number of reasons. firstly I was brought up. to earn my own way and I have worked since I was I ped my own way through A levels, I paved my way through university. You're right, I got cut my teeth with political experience in the National Union of students and in local government but I was also running a small charity or one of the youngest chief executs in the country at the time. I was a of a larger charity So I And I don't think I know there are some people who sneer at charities in the voluntary sector Um, and again,, you know, I I really resent that because I think they do an absolutely amazing job and they are they are organizations like any other. when I was running a small charity I had At times concerns about running the payroll and my cash flow in a way that a small business owner would Uh, you know, when I was In my late twenties, I was restructuring an organization The you know, involved telling a lot of people quite a bit older than me. that sadly I'd be making them redundant. Those are hard things to do and those give you experience valuable experiences for life as well as for government. And you right have run the largest public service in the world. For the best part of two years. What you say R with the head of re was Rome rein in England not the health seecreties., I've. I've led. and I've led from the front And every day I've gone into the Department of Health and Social care, I've gotone in with clear direction vision about where you want to go and I've been like a gladiator fighting through obstacles, the barriers, the culture of know that you encounter whether within your department, other parts of government, the NHS itself And I think those are all valuable experiences that would equip me to do the top job. Really interesting to say it grides my gears when people say that. I Be it was a more polite way of saying, ball's mine, and I won't say in a sentence. Well, I think there's another thing that to use your phrase grides your gears People think Burnham's working class They think Rya is working class They think West streetings are smart, slick politician. usually in a smart suit, not today. I notice Just that annoy you Be you described yourself in your speech. as the boy from the cououncil of state inam in East London. That never that will never change. I've never forgotten my roots. I'm proud of my roots. I wish that at times when I was growing up that life wasn't as hard as it was. And I don't want it to be that hard for other kids now. And the tragedy in our country today is the kids that I represent in my constituency on the London Essex border The council flat that I wanted to escape when I was growing up, those kids now aspire to. becausecause they're not in a council flat. They're in grotty temporary bed and breakfast accommodation. and the kicker is that we are paying about three billion quid a year for the privilege of putting these kids in grotty accommodation. that stunts their development their life chances, their opportunities. And it I cannot believe that in the space of thirty years things have gotten worse, not better. Well let's talk kids. Talk a little bit about what you might do. Yeah as for the whole polish thing, like, oh, well, you know. U I'm not so bothered about it. because I was brought up by my granddad to polish my shoes put on a tie lookook the part, my accent probably became a bit more plummy after university. if There's knocking around somewhere there's like a video cassette of our school trip to a place in Stston Mount Fitcher called Gorsefields like an outdoorive education centre. And it is really funny because you hear this like little Wesley going up. All right. bit more what I was like. Well East London, I mean I'm now' like lots of Eastenders I've migrated out towards us. Is it true that one of your teachers told you? Spart up you to get on in secondary school. Don't like that. D don't look like that. It was good advice, but it's advice I feel conflicted about because I don't think people should need to change or conform in order to get on. But it was good advice because when you walk through the door of a job interview, people do look you up and down When you speak, people do kind of listen out, especially in your world in the media, my world in politics. Sot you can't do right from wrong, can you? know Angela Rayna is someone ha'ving like the most enormous respect for in terms of where she's come from, where she's got to the sneering she gets because of the way she speaks and the fact she hasn't gone to university is disgusting But I get I get it the other way aroundound. I mean, that actually the tragedy is that you know all of them went to private school and you know, they want comments on them. it's just sort of acceptable with that st that's just what they're like, isn't it? But we're the ones who get judged. We can't do right from wrong as working class in politics seeking Pushing optimizing, creating, learning, discovering. At ArAMco, we believe in harnessing the power of data to push the limits of what's possible. That's how we deliver reliable energy to millions across the world. ArAMCco, an integrated energy and chemicals company Learn more about us at arramcoe. com When I scraped my car in that parking garage, I was worried that it could be a long process to take care of it. likeike a landscaper's first day trimming a hedge made I have definitely already been here Now is it left, right or right left Well, maybe I'll cut a path out and find my way back later But it wasn't like that. I filed a claim in under two minutes on the GaICo app and they handled it from there. It was taken care of almost as quickly as it happened. It feels good to get help quick. It feels good to GaICo Well let's talk some more though about what you want to do for those young people who you say have the same background as yours. I called it a callall to arms, that speech in the House of Commons. Were you consciously channeling JFK You're looking puzzled is this the ye so so yeah, you said something very similar to the famous JFK quote Oh snow. Yeah, I didn't have Jeff for the country. have Jeff ask us what we can do for them. Yeah, so I mean, actually didn't I didn't think so much of that. So the benefit of people listening so And going back to that poll, that survey, half of young people said in a poll they wouldn't fight for their country As I said, I think they would But that's not the question. The question isn't for me wouldould young people fight for their country It's When will this country fight for them because What we've done, like what we did during COVID, for good reason, so I'm not knocking it, but for good reason, we did something that is so antithetical to human nature. We ask children to make sacrifices for adults. We never do this. There isn't a good parent across the land Who wouldn't throw themselves in harm's way to protect their children. Not a single good parent in this country would ever make that that make a different choice. And yet that's what we did as society We constrain their education, their developments, their childhood in order to protect older people. And the least our predecessors could have done was listened to Sir Kevin Collins, the expert they got in then they said, L what do we need to do to recover these kids' education and well beinging? And he told them And Rishy soon actually said we haven't got the money for any short change them. And that really at the time I was in the schools brief and then the child poverty brief in opposition And I just thought this is the problem sometimes when you don't have people in positions of power who knows what life is like for people at the sharp end because as much as I haveve lots of respect for Issue on many levels He does come from a more privileged background. He wents one of the country's top private schools. I don't think he understands or understood what missing out on their education would have meant for kids from my background who missed out on the enrichment, the opportunities, the education that gave me everything that I needed to be the person I am today and to succeed in what I wanted to do. You the ladder of opportunity from underneath. You're going to say he wants a national care service. He wants to do much more kids whose education was scarred by COVID Where is the money coming from Yeah, and that's a and that's a fair question. and One of the things that I'm putting out as part of my campaign is a proposal for a wealth tax that works and What I'm proposing to do is equalize rates of capital gains and income tax. I'm proposing that for a few reasons. Firstly, there's a fundamental issue of fairness and a case I've made for a long time which is it is just not fair that a cleaner employed you know, in this country would pay a lower marginal rate of taxation than a landlord who's assets are appreciating in value. and that gap between earned and unearned income has widened. So there's a fairness argument. Just to be clear, when we're talking about capital gains, we're talking of the tax on people's investments. It could be shares, it could be a second home. Yeah. It's essentially not the tax on your income, but the tax on and how you The wealth gap in this country has widened opportunity gap in this country is widening and the gap between earned income and unearned income has also widened. But there's also, I think, a good pro business pro growth pro productivity argument in what I'm setting out becausecause at the moment If you are investing your wealth And you're going to get a tencent to twenty percent return invvesting in a smaller, less productive business that you can dissolve and walk away better off paying a much lower rate of taxation. You're less likely to be investing in those companies, in those startups, in venture capital that is funding the part of the economy, the productive businesses, the providing the patient capital needed to grow the economy, to have more productive business And so the approach that I'm setting out and the kient that I'm flying in this leadership contest they to equalize those rates with allowances for genuine entrepreneurialism. investment, reinvestment so that we can be both pro worker pro entrepreneurialism. Pro fairness in the course of that generate up to twelve billion pounds worth of revenues that can be invested. and say that sounds a bit too good to be true. This is just a tax notot just on the wealthy But it's a tax on people who've got a bit of savings. put it into a second home or they put it into a business They put it into shares. They've already paid tax. Well on their income, they're going to pay tax again on that capital gains. Well, and what they say is here it is, He's moving to the left to try and see off Andy Burnham. It's a left wing proposal. Let's have a wealth tax. So I'd just say two things to rebut that Firstly, under the proposals that I'm putting out Around half of people who pay capital gains tax will end up paying a lower rate than they do now And we will be incentivizing and encouraging thoseose types of investment that help our economy to grow and improve our nation's productivity and we are all better off when when the country is better off. So that's a good thing. The second thing to your point of is he just tacking left because there's a leadership contest on? I will refer your viewers and listeners back to I've no doubt extremely well read pamphlet Let us face the future again, which I published in march twenty twenty, where I floated exactly this type of proposal. And this isn't just my idea. You've got people like the Resolution Foundation, Dan Needle, the tax expert, who are all kind of out there making this case, which for a wealth tax that works that is pro fairness business and entrepreneurialism and pro growth. Now there is another count a sweet spot. already out there who wants to be the next Prime M minister and Noour leader, Andy Burnham He says country has been ruined By forty years of neoliberalism has all gone wrong since Thatcher which interestingly includes the Blair and Brown Gver Is he right Well I'm sure that Andy wasn't criticizing the Blair and Brown governments because he was in it U and it be I mean he was he was there at the time. I'm proud of what the last Labour government achieved. I didn't agree with all of it. I left the Labour Party briefly over Iraq and the troubling of university tuition fees until I was persuaded by a friend to Youve got to be in it to win it and that You know, the Labour Party might not be perfect, but it's the best vehicle for social justice this country has ever had And thank goodness, I did rejoin the L Party, otherwise I wouldn't be here. But U, you know, I do think that where this country has gone fundamentally wrong is that issue that I've set out in the commons today as we're speaking, which is prospects for the next generation of worse and last never happened in our modern history. And that is the thing that I think is fundamentally broken about the country, that broken social contract that we need to repair. The other big idea that you've already got out is to rejoin the EU U use a phrase a new special relationship It's a great phrase. I confess I've no idea what it means when do you want to rejoin them you How would you want to rejoin the EU? So a few things. Firstly, we were elected on a clear manifesto and we should stick to it, firstirstly because politicians should keep their promises and secondly, on this issue perhaps above many others, it's even more important to Rpect the voters So I think that within those red lines set out in our manifesto, we should be neegotiating with the European Union a maximalist position to get as good a trade deal as we can get through a range of sectoral deals that I think would have the benefit of both benefiting the EU and benefiting Britain and also proving, especially in communities that voted to leave the European Union, that working more closely with the EU is both desirable and impactful. And so if you want to w to rejoins are, you'd have to put it in another way I Well here's the key thing about you'd have to win. The key thing about rejoining it. I mean, I think this is a marathon not a sprint and I think to be P part of my frustration actually with the way that comments and Andy's comments were seized on. You would have thought from some of the commentary that Andy and I had both said let's rejoin the European Union tomorrow. I don think neither of us have said that. What we've said is that it is in Britain's long term interest to be in the European Union. We regret that we left But I think that in order to rejoin There is something fundamental that would have to be true which is it would have to be the settled will of the country because it's not in the interests of the EU or the UK for there to be a hokey cooy And you can't just be in out. We saw the disruption that leeaving calls. so you can't repeat that over and over again. But I think the country is I think seeing and feeling the impact of Brexit And as I've said so many times before, change begins with an argument It is okay For those of us who voted remain and thought Brexit was a mistake too say so and support point out the proof points because what I find extraordinary is lots of my friends and my constituentscy who voted leave They've got no problem in saying, do you know what? I voted to leave the European Union. and that farage sold us a pack of lies and the politicians cocked it up. Would have to be another refere could say Would there have to be another referendum or would did an election do it? Well, I think it would have to be I think it would have to be a pretty consistent settled view of the country, Nick, to be honest. I think you couldn't have you know, a few months of opinion polling saying a majority of people would rejoin. And then the other thing and this is the other important point The terms upon which we would rejoin also matter Uh, and, you know, I would have concerns and I'd want to you know, around the single currency, for example, we were never in the Schengen agreement. In many respects, that was the tragedy of Brexit. the first you know last time r. There was a British deal. We had a deal unlike any other and we chose to walk away. Now you can't change that. That's water under the bridge, but what you can do is recognized that it is in Britain's and Europe's strategic interest for us to pull together and you can listen not just to what our European friends are saying, but what our Canadian friends are saying. Look at what Mark Carney said about the middling powers. att the moment Europe as a continent is sandwiched between these two superpowers of the United States of America on one hand China on the other, the United States an unpredictable superpower with President Trump China a rising superpower with a completely different set of values. I tell that's why I think the democratic nations of the world, not just here in Europe, but elsewhere need to pull together in common interest economically for our security and our values. Just a brief one on that Ministers are said to be unhappy Prime Minister altered the sanctions on Russian oil. Are they right to be When I listened to the BBC bulletins this morning, yes, I was in exactly the same boat And then you thought what when you heard? Well I thought I thought we I listened to the bulletins. I thought Why have we watered down Russian sanctions And then it became clear listening to ministers that actually This was I don't think my colleagues would mind me saying more cock up than conspiracy Actually, we've got a stronger sanctions regime in place. What happened was some transitional regulations went up on the government website beforefore the sanctions that buy went up on another part of the government website So interestingly and you know, and I think it is always refreshing when people just say, actually, Ive got this wrong Bryant, the min the trade mininister in the comments today. He didn't say o, the BBC got it wrong. What he said was Once one bit of the story went up on one part of the government's website then another bit on another part of the government's website journalists reported one without the other and that's my fault and the government's fault not the journalists. And so it was cock up rather than conspiracy. And that was reassuring to me because I think the war in Ukraine is the frontline for freedom and democracy in Europe and we've got to stand abbsolutely stefast behind President Zelensky and the Ukrainian. Anybody listening to this interview, anybody watching your speech? W not have any doubt, I suspect K Starber wouldn't have any doubt that you're better at giving interviews and you're better at giving speeches. than Ker Star But they might say There is nothing that you said in your speech that caseed armor couldn't have said And at times has said less eloquently Isn't the danger that this is all about talkks It is not about clear plan of alternative policies to what the government is now doing I think the government does have a communication problem and I think that is substantial and it's a key reason why we are losing to reform, but I don't think it's just a problem of communication. and style. I think it is a problem of substance as well I think that When you look at this government and the mistakes that we've made and the choices that were made, It led to people to question our values and whether we were in the right place, goinging out early on winter fuel, for example, a decision that was not properly debated and put to cabinet for scrutiny and political discussion, that was presented as a fate accomple on the day that it was announced. at the Island of Strangers Speech which I think took all of us back becausecause we thought, hang on a minute What are we saying about this country and its's Ireland's story. and the people from a whole range of backgrounds and faiths and cultures that have made Britain the country that it is today that are working in the health service and social care are working in finance and the creative industries who are giving so much and that whose talents that we want to draw And then and then of course, there is a clarity of vision and direction. In the health service, for example Yes We've seen performance improve and there are a number of things that I'm proud of that we've achieved in the first. You spend an awful lot of money And famously, you said to me, I think in your first interview as health secret, you sought out Doctor' strike What happened? You gave them a load at bunny and they're still on strike So There are some things that have improved. It was not exactly a triumph, was it? I'm not going to pretend that everything is hunky Dory after barely two years in government. and we can come back to the Doctor Stripe if you want to. but I mean I think that's more of a reflection on the BMA than it is on the government, to be honest I think in terms of where we are in the health service, one of the reasons why we have made so much progress so quickly is because we've had clear vision and it's not just about investment, it's modernisation. It's the money going further. But putting aside the doctor strike that you said you'd sought and the Tories hadn't is a bit like me saying, you know, other than breaking your legs, I treated you really successfully It's fundamental You said, getet me into power, I'll sort the doctors now I don't know I don't think the Doctor Strike is fundamental and the waiting list performance improves that. I've actually managed to deliver on our targets despite the Doctor Strikes. We've increased the productivity of the health service. The target was two percent. We achieved two point seven, two point eight percent. I mean, the private sector would bend over backwards. There's another interiew another interview to do at Length about your record and the NHS. know it's the centers the NHS appour power to the patient, the first NHS online hospital trust. it's not just the investment because I think this is important. And I've heard a couple of my colleagues in the cabinet recently saying Well, the NHS improved because the investment we put in Don delude yourself that just pouring money into the NHS delivers results. It is the modernisation agenda that goes with it. And we need to have that same approach across government. If we're going to invest in defence and we should, we need to reform the MOD, reform the way the services work, look at our personnel, look at our kit and our capability. It's investment matched with modernisation That will be true for education, it will be true for transport. It will be true across the board. There's another th that has not had a coherent domestic agenda. Internationally, I think the Prime Minister has done a great job Domestically, I don't think we've had a strong enough political agenda or grit. There's another thing they say, judgment You know what I'm going to ask you. You're a mater, Peter Mandelon You backed, Peter Mandelen, even after It emerged that he was a friend of Jeffrey Epstein. You were mentored by. Peter Mandelson, yourour partner, Joe is an advisor to Peter Mandelson So people say you know, if you think Kst Drmber hasn't got the judgment, neither' W streeting Well, I'd say a couple of things. I mean, firstly, know people can see the extent of my interactions with Peter Mandelson because I've put my messages out there And I definitely think the thing that went fundamentally wrong in Mandelson's appointment as our ambassador is the fact that A hard headed judgment was made Wh can deal with Trump And the voices, the experiences of Epstein's victims were not given the weight that they should have given And I think that speaks to a culture of deliberate but nonetheless present, sexism and misogyny, in our public life, in our institutions, and we have to face up to that. And I know to face Yeah, and I absolutely own it. And in fact, you know, I've written and spoken at length about that in in this particular context, but also more broadly in terms of the health serervice. I mean, I wouldn't have appointed Peter Mandelon based on what was known. In fact, to be honest, my choice would have been David Milliband if given the choice of U. S. ambassador. but I also think that you know when it comes to when it comes to this kind of core issue, you know Peter Mandelson betrayed Gordon Brown. I think he betrayed this Prime Minister. I think he's got no future in public life. I have made and had no contact with him since he left his job and was sacked. and I' no intention of ever ever changing Now given all we've discussed and there been many war weeks, and many more interviews to come. There be some saying well, it's all tooate for Westterrreaty, isn't it? He didn't run against Kistara. We don't think he had the eighty one names necessary of MPs to do it And the latest poll put him on four percent. of the labour members who might vote Andy Burnon would slaughter you, says that poll. Even Kid Stara would beat you. Are you still a credible candidate Oh I've been the underdog all my life and I've beaten the odds all my life And as I said last week, This is to be. battle of ideas, not just of personalities and we've got to move away from petty factionalism that's held the Labour Party back and you know, I I really do wish that believe that the Labour Party could win the next general election and see off reform and keep here as Prime Minister And we've been in the trenches together This is not It's not being comfortable or easy saying publicly what I've said privately for while now and cannot get away from This Moral dilemma and I think it is a moral dilemma of seeding power in this country to nationalism in the way that we did just a forortnight ago seeing so many good labour people losing, not through fult of their own. but because of the unpopularity of this government So unless we change course, We are going to hand the keys of this country to Nigel Farage and reform, and I would not be able to live with myself. I knew that leaving government in the way that I did criticized I knew that There'd be lots of labour members who would disagree. were a loyal tribe to do what I thought was right and it goes back to You know, the key key thing about me, you won't always agree with me, but you will know where I stand. There are some who won't forgive you for splitting that tribe as they see it. And they think You're a player of the political game. You might be interested when we spoke to the man who interviewed you to get into Cambridge University, a man called Professor John Morll. He's a big admirer of yours, a biographer of Cromwell, as it happens And he said, I know you don't get to the top of politics, he told us by idealism and insuciance. Gile