Reflecting on Background and Professional Legacy

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And best of all, No spreadsheets St managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. tryry for free today at Odoo. com. OdWo. com Welcome to political thinking He's a liberal, lefty lawyer from North London who cares more about the human rights of illegal migrants and criminals than the rights of ordinary people. That is what the critics sometimes say of Kir Stara. They also say it my guest on political thinking this week, the attttorney General Lord Hermmer Richard, Hermmer is Starmer's friend, his ally colleague for many years when both were working barristers. He was parachuted into the House of Lords so he could become the government's top legal adviser. Lord Hermer is unapologetic champion both international law and human rights law, which has made him the man that many on the right love to hate. He's a politician you rarely see or hear Indeed, this is his first full length broadcast interview but his advice affects us all, whether it's on illegal migration, the war with Iran or lenient sentences handed down to teenage rapists Lord Hrmer, Richardrm, attoryal.elcome political thin. Nick, thans so much. It a real pleasure to be here. I mentioned that you're the hate figure. When I' nice easy intro. Well, sorry, it's going to get worse, I'm afraid. When I really in, I find phrases like useful idiot for Britain's enemies The least patriotic man ever in Capitol letters to hold high office, arrogant, progressive, fool. I mean, these are really unpleasant things. When you read them, when you hear them, do they make you down? Do they make you angry or do they make you defiant? Th solve them, I'll show ' them. Well, kind of neither really, Dick. I kind of deal with them in two ways. first on a personal I'm fifty seven years of age. I'm not particularly bothered by newspapers that I knew were going to attack me for my cases because I saw what they had done to Kir when he was leader with the opposition. So I knew this was coming. Kir warned me it would come. So on a personal level, I'm untroubled by it because I know what's behind it, which is a political attack. It is frankly a bit weird seeing your face in a newspaper. I spent my entire career trying to go under the radar. I'd never tweeted in my life. onn big casers, I'd go behind the back of court to avoid the cameras. So it's a bit weird, but there is a point, there is another point behind it that I do find a bit more troubling. So firstly, it's kind of an attack on an important part of our rule of law institution, which is that lawyers act for people without or favour, you wouldn' attack you because of a source or who you happen to interview, you wouldn't attack a doctor because of the nature of their patient. And so our legal system depends upon lawyers being able to do their job. And just to finish that point because there's another point as well. It's a part of a wider attack by certain segments of society on other kind of parts of institutions that are important to this country judges the media civil service fininally on this, the one bit that does trouble me is the suggestion that somehow Patriotism es the preserve of only one particular party. So some of those criticisms suggest that I'm not patriotic. I mean that is rubbish. I love this country. I'm deeply patriotic. I love working In fact, the joy, the privilege of this job, is day in I get to work with our extraordinary armed serervices and our extraordinary intelligence community. So the suggestion that there should be a tension between being a lawyer acting for your clients in conformity of your professional duties, a tension with that and patriotism, I just don't buy it. The other bit of the description, which was less insulting but you may still dislike North London Liberal Lty mates of Kistom I might suggest it's pretty accurate, isn't?, I'm a Cardiff boy. Come on. hold on. Wh we live now. Oh yeah. All right. All right, fair enough. but I am Cardiff born and bred. I am the product of a state school education from Cardiff. Who now lives Northon? ye. But you know, stud to millions of people and I'm proud to live in North London. It's a great place to live. So am I a lawyer? Yeah Am I liberal? Yeahah. Am I kind of and a member of the elite Well, look, as I said, I'm a state school boy from Cardiff. I'm not sure that's what you would normally identify as elites in this country. Yeah. You called Lord Herber and you're the attorney general. So that probably qualifies as. ye I can I can see my case gets weaker over time. No, at least yeah. donon't challenge a lawyer when making a case. It's the mate of Kar is an interesting part of the story, isn't it? plan to go into politics, although you're very political and have been all your life You first met him When you joined a very famous group of barriss, known as a Chambers, in Central London, Doughy Street with like minded lawyers, what? Who all brought together by a common cause, really? Yeah. So I first met here in March of nineteen ninety six. I'd start off my career going back home to Cardiff and I made a decision after a couple of years I wanted to move to London. I came up on my first night My first day, I remember it really well and kind of nervous up in the big city and an arm went aroundound my shoulder And it was Kar, saying right taking you out for dinner tonight And that started a friendship that has lasted since that day. And it was kind of typical of his kindness and his decency and his concern for others. If I'd said to you back in Dy Chambers, I'd said, rightight, you're going to be the top legal officer in the country and your friend who put his arm aroundound your shoulder, he's going to be Prime Mister What would you have said I would have said it was more likely that Wales would win back to back rugby World Cup Every four years And you have now got this job. and it's one of those jobs where as I said in the introduction, you're not very visible, but you're very present making decisions. If you meet somebody who goes, Hm, my attorney genereral, don't really understand that, you know, imagine you're Harbour in a coffee shop and somebody says to you, What what exactly is this job Yeah, that's actually a question I get asked all the time. So first, I don't make decisions L the job of lawyers is to advise. It's my policy making colleagues who make the decisions. It's the PM and seecretaries of State and ministers make the decision, Which inertainly is why you're not a member of cabinet, aren't you? Thats go to it I attend cabinet. I go to all the cabinet meetings but I am not formally because I'm there as an advisor. The core part of the job is to provide the Prime Mister and senior ministers with advice on the kind of really kind of crunchy legal issues. and it's to work as well with lawyers across government of whoom we've got many thousands to try and ensure that all of government is receiving really high level legal advice and the job of lawyers in government. is to help enable It's to allow policies that policy makers want to achieve It's allowing them to do that in a way that is legally effective. I'm hearing some of your colleagues shout at the radi here at this point He says he's meant to enable policy You were labelled in one profile in the garden The Herminator Because the view was you block things. you get in the way. you're always going, you know, here he comes with his legal advice telling us what we can't do again. So I think that's one hundred and eighty degrees in the opposite direction to the truth. good lawyers should be doing what I try to do day in, day out. is to try and find solutions problems to try and enable my colleagues to land policies effectively. I mean O of my frustrations with the last government from a legal perspective, was they'd announce a whole load of policies that would then get caught up in proceedings for years and then would often be deemed to be unlawful We've come into government. determined to make a real difference And we're only going to do that if our policies land. And that's the job of lawyers is to help and assist and to enable. It's absolutely not to blog. Let's turn to a couple of the big decisions you've had to make in recent weeks and months before we talk about your friend, who's fighting for his political life and what you think he can do to try and save that political life Iran You must have known when you took this job that possibly the most difficult decision you would be asked to give is something around peace and war That after all is what stuck your predecessor, Peter Goldsmith, advising Tony Blair about war in Iraq, made him a public figure, made him very controversial. Were you ever in any doubt that you could give permission. the US. to use bases on British soil to attack targets in Iran? But There are two things to say at the outset. The first, of I my phrase are quite a boring one. So there is in the ministerial code something called the Lw Officers Convention And that means that nobody neither a law officer or any minister. N not only can they not say what an attorney general has advised, they're not even allowed to say whether an attorney genereral has advised. That's there for a really good reason. It's kind of lawyer confidentiality. The second point to make at the outset is it's decisions about war and peace are decisions for prime ministers. They're not decisions for atttorney generals. I hear what you say about not being able to reveal the advice and you're not the first to say it. It has to be said by people holding the job that you hold. There is a suspicion around there was in Iraq and there is over Iran That really what happens is attorneys are told by the politician what they want to hear. Be awfully helpful if you found this and then we can not have a row with the United States. We hide behind the law. Can you reassure people This wasn't a legal advice driven by politics When I came in to this job, I convened all the lawyers in government and I stress that our job as lawyers in goverment is to find creative solutions, but there will be moments in which as a lawyer, you need to speak truth to power. And I came in not only wanting all lawyers in government to do that, but to stay true to the oath I gave in my first week in office at the courts, which is to uphold the rule of law. And that means I will give my honest and varnished advice what people will want to hear. but what my view, my opinion, my good faith opinion of the law is. If you've been Donald Trump's lawyer You presumably could have advised him and told us about it that his war was illegal. What the Prime Minister has done in Iran is say he's only going to act in the national interest and he calibrates the national interest by a number of different kind of indices One of which is it lawful, not least because as Kars explained You can't as Prime Minister send troops off into battle when there is a question mark about the legality. Other kind of indices are, is there a strategy in place? What's day two look Iity three is what's the geopolitics? How's it playing out in the rest of the world? And I've no doubt that when the Prime Mister took the decisions in the national interest, in the case of Iran, he made the right decision. Now the other big issue you've had to deal with where you can speak publicly about it is the power you have to refer to the Court of Aeal If there is a feeling that a sentence Too lenient. ye And you've done that recently, haven't you? In the case of Boys found guilty of raping two girls, laughing filming it, sharing it and yet getting no custodial sentence. What was your reaction when you first heard about that Well, I wanted to know the details. I wanted to know the details as quickly as possible so I could make a decision as quickly as possible. So the uncertainty was not hanging over those victims. But that's a process but at a human level Did you have the reaction that so many people had, which is what on earth has been going on here? Yeah, well I wanted to fully understand it because I had frankly, I did have that reaction. Now sometimes if you're making a decision and you're making what is effectively a judgment decision whether' to refer something, you can't just go on your first instincts. But my first instincts were the same as you ne You've got to go and look at the actual evidence and the details and make a decision As it happens, when I looked at the evidence and the details in this case, they confirmed my initial reaction and reactation of what horror shock surprise? I want to be a little careful because the matter is now going to the courourt of appeal and independent judges will exercise their own view on it, but I was in no doubt that it was a sentence that I felt had to be referred to the Court of appeal. I should also say Nick, I mean as part of My consideration of the case, I read the victim's statements bravery of those girls, both putting themselves through the ordeal of a trial, but what is more when they got those sentences to carry on campaigning to secure justice? The question I think they were asking themselves and many other young women, girls are asking themselves is What's the point? putting yourself through The Tba of going through the criminal justice system if your attacker doesn't get a custodial sentence. Look Every day in courts up and down in this country People are sentenced to very long periods in prison for sexual offences And we are determined to make sure that the criminal justice system works for victims. It's been a priority for this government since day one. as part of our wider commitment to tackling violence against women and girls, which is a real scourge at the moment in society. Are you worried more broadly though, that rape still isn't taken seriously enough by some in the criminal justice system. There's almost occasionally aort of boys will be boys' view of it. Well I don't think that is typical of a day to day experience. I have to say, in the work that I've been doing over the last two years with the Crime Prosecution Service and their units that are really kind of focus in and specialize in rape and serious sexual violence, that is not the experience that I've got that I've taken away from it. Is there room for us doing much better in certain areas of the criminal justice system Absolutely. Are we determined to do that? Absolutely. Underlying that case and underlying A lot of the criticism that has heard of lawyers and the law is a simple question. It's possibly the most powerful question in politics. whose side are you on And the perception there is at least amongst some that lawyers are not on their side. They're not on ordinary people's side and you'll be all too aware that that's particularly the case when it comes to the small boats and migrants coming across it. And their fear is and I'm going to put it directly that lawyers like you and lawyers like Kar Starmer are more interested in the human rights of a guy who's paid thousands of pounds to a criminal and Not much for the ordinary taxpayer over here. fundamentally disagree with So there is no tension between believing in human rights. and having a steely determination to tackle small boats. And you can see that In this government, we come in and we are starting to be pretty effective in dealing with small boats. There's a lot more work to be done. There'll be a lot of people when you say you're being effective No, we'rein a thousand a week. If you take, for example, overall migration figures, which have cut about seventy percent since we came into to government illegal migr. But if you look at the thousands that are being detained on the beaches in France. We are starting to with a lot, a lot more still to come we are starting to tackle it. Now that is not only not necessarily in tension with our commitment to human rights, actually, it is in part Be we are committed to human rights and not least we are a full player in the Council of Europe that we are able to deal effectively or to start dealing more effectively with small baits. Can let me explain why. Yeah. I was going to say because let ye, let me just explain to people listening. Yeah. your critics say, look, even conservative ministers Your friend David Wilson, Lord Wilson, a man who is your shadow, a conservative. but as it happens, you've known each other for many years. youve come from a very simple background, say, look This Convention on human rights stop us doing we need to do. Yeah, stop us being able to detain and deport people stop us basically carrying out the democratic wishes of the British people. I fundamentally disagree. In fact, the converse is the case. So people are coming across to this country from France, from Belgium, they're travelling through Greece, they're taking boat parts for you Germany They're not coming here because we are members of the Council of Europe and have signed up to the European Convention of Human Rights. They're traveling from countries that are also sancturies and strong supporters of it. Now the way we are going to tackle small boats is in large measure through cooperation with those states And since we've come back into government and we've had a recommitment to the Council of Europe and the Convention We've been able to sign really meaningful deals. We signed two deals with France, one, the one in one out, the other the shallow waters agreements, where the French back Germ most of those cases is not much more than one in one out tin There are thousands of boats that have been slashed tiny in a number of cases. Well actuallyually it's not in terms of people who have been stopped in small waters. We're talking about thousands of people who have been stopped in small waters who otherwise would have made it to these shores. Germany has actually agreed to amend its own domestic cr criminal law to stop boat materials travelling through to the beaches of France and Belgium. Now those deals are because we are in the Council of Europe.. Oh, they would go.. They would go. So what reform and the Tories have to answer is well, what would you do You wouldn't be able to have deals with France and Germany because they are contingent upon being members of it. they say they'd round people up on the beaches and send them somewhere else. Well, I think what they mean by that is they let people drown in the water and that is not a British way to deal with it. That is not commensurate with our values. The way to deal with it is the way we've been dealing with it and we're going to carry rolling Carry rolling out further agreements, which is cooperation with the states through which people are travelling, through which people are launching boats. and we do that through our membership of the Council of Europe. And soing say that Kemy Badengh wants people to drown in the channel. No, no, I think if you hear some of the voices even to the right of Kemy Badng, some of the kind of Some of the kind of language and some of the rhetoric is deeply, deeply concerning, the kind of disregard for the humanity But what I am saying, Nick, is it's only through that international cooperation that we're going to be able to deal effectively with small boots. That requires our membership We leave it those agreements go and it's not only those agreements in respect to migration. Let's just be clear what leaving means, right? It means leaving our trade agreement with our biggest trading partner, the EU. It means in the field of policing where we have to have data sharing agreements which are contingent upon our membership, those being ripped up. It means peace in Northern Ireland, the Good Friday agreement. This could be clearer. and also what's interesting is to hear your passion. and I suspect it' Kars to tell me your friend's passion as well. You see the tension though And this is when we come to him his leadership is what Tony Blair says Let's take one aspect to start with. Blair says is Do whatever it takes on migration. And I think there are people listening to you will say when you say, do whatever the courts will accept, do whatever our colleagues in Europe will accept, do what sort of works within the existing system. they don't want that sort of they just want some to get on and do it. As Let me tell you where I've come back from, which is last week I came back from Moldova I was there with a vet, the Foreign Secretary, in which we had a council ofiew meeting with forty six nations determined to do something about migration and unlawful migration that affects us all So we have a declaration in almost historically quick time dealing in particular with foreign national offenders and making it easy to expel foreign national defenders. So nobody is saying international law framework that allows us to cooperate is somehow sort of chiseled in granite is not able to change and move with the times. Of court it is. And we're playing as the UK, a really important central party. How soon do it happen? Because the moment it's a letter. it's a statement No, no declaration has happened. We signed it. Yeah, but yeah by politicians. You've got to convince the judges to pay attention to How soon do you think you'll see? I think're going to see Shana rolling out in the coming weeks, further reforms of the immigration system that are going to be consistent with what we agreed did moldover. So in other words, those things that it's technically called Article I, isn't it?t the convention where somebody says, you can't deport me because the health system is worse in this or that country. You can't deport me Prisons are revolting You'll say that's over. Th those days are gone. I'm saying there's going to be a whole lot more flexibility in the approach that you're going to see to the expulsion of foreign national offenders for sure. I'm not trying to hide for one moment that there is a very significant issue goovernment is duty bound to address in respect of small votes, right? We get it. But we want to deal with it effectively not just through rhetoric, not just through jingoism, but effectively. And that is what we're going about doing seeking Pushing. Creating, learning, discovering. At ArAMCco, we believe in harnessing the power of data to push the limits of what's possible. That's how we deliver reliable energy to millions across the world. ArAMCco, an integrated energy and chemicals company Learn more about us at arramcoo. com We all do it You have a night for yourself but don't like the sound of the silence, so you turn on the TV just for the ambiance. It's a little trick that helps you feel like you've got company and aren't alone. And other insurers, well, they may make you feel alone. But when you switch to GIo, you've got claimsraps available around the clock. So whenever you need, you'll have people around to help. And let's turn on the washing machine Just for good measure Isn't that soothing? It feels good to have support. It feels good to Gao So that brings us to the crisis. and you know, sometimes journalists accused of hyperbole, but I think you and I can agree. The Prime Minister faces a crisis about his leadership. There are people who want to replace him. They've been open about it. Andy Burnham's running for election because he wants to replace Kir Starmer. Does he believe he can survive this? Yeah, I think he does, Nick. constantly been underestimated. I imagine throughout his life he's been underestimated, and he's always proven his critics wrong. When he was the DPP taking on some of the most dangerous organized criminal gangs or politicians or indeed the media as DPP When he came in as labor leader, people said, you're never. going to turn this party around so it's exible within three election cycles, but yet we had the victory that we had in twenty twenty four. So no one's ever got rich. betting against KSstam And yet, Andy Berham, if he wins a viollection, there are over candidates of course. you can always read them on the BPC website. If he becomes an MP, he's clear he wants to challenge the Prime Minister How does that not lead to a Burnham Pmiership rather than a Starmer premiership? Well, look, I'm not going to get involved in speculation But K's not will fight won' he won't say Games up fair enough. Here are the knowns, right? Here are the only things we know because we don't know what's going to happen by election. Here are the things we know, hereere iss leader. Prime Minis with a mandate from the general election and an absolute determination to better this country. There's one other thing we know, isn't it? Not just that he's quite a stuporn man, not just that he's determined to prove his critics wrong He's pretty angry about what's happening now, isn't he I think the here is he is perhaps the most resilient person I've ever met So I think like frankly, you'd have lots of good reason to be angry with what's going on of course. That's not what I pick up from you Nick. What I pick up is just this dogged determination and resilience and not because of any kind of sense of arrogance Not because he's kind of stubborn in a kind of a negative sense, but he is genuinely feels this sense of duty having won the general election to deliver for the government. Dogy determination doesn't turn anything round though, does it? it might do for him, but the critics just say twoo real problems here, hasasn't got a vision or if he has he can't articulate it and be Let's be brutal, he's a rubbish politician. She's not very good at it Yeah That's a big surprise. I'm going to disagree with you U C I really deal with the vision? issue that Tony obviously made the critique of in his essay. Forgive me if I can for just a minute to tell you what the vision of this government is what the kind of underlying philosophy is and how that accords with who Kissed Amor is. We believe this government believes, the Labour Party believes in the dignity of each human being and that every human being has to be accorded respect. And what that means in real terms is that everybody in life has to be given a fair crack of the whip. That doesn't matter the wealth of your parents, It doesn't matter the circumstances in which you were born you should be able to realize your potential. The reality is That is not this country. Inpite the fact we are on a good day the fifth largest economy in the world, the reality is your life chances are almost always going to be baked in by the wealth of your parents or the people who brought you up Ites it's even worse than that neick. Your life expectancy in this country is going to be materially determined by the circumstances in which you were born. And it's even worse than that because as's a stats from a few weeks ago show yourour health and wellbe is going to be determined by that. Now labour believe that the way to deal with that is knocking through the structural inequalities in society that lead to those deeply unequal outcomes And that is what we've been doing each day. And it said, well, what's the kind of guiding string between all different policies? Well, let me tell you, it's about respect homeome This is a government that's brought in Rnters Rights Act. It's respect at work. We brought in Employment Rights Act. It's lifting children out of poverty in a way that no government in the post war era has done by removing the two child benefit. Now there I could probably spend the rest of this podcast talking about different policies and how that You couldnt In a sense don't you sum up the problem there? Because I think people listening may think, they know you're on a radio four program in which you're expected to give thoughtful intelligent answers. you've got some space to do it. But you can't put that on a banner can you? You can't stitch that onto a banner. You can't make that into a short TikTok. It's very hard to communicate. I think this is a very difficult age. politicians to land call messages. I think there are a number of reasons for that. of I'll give you three Briefly brief reasons. Look, first is I think it is objectively reasonable for people In twenty twenty six to be skeceptical about what politicians promise We've gone from twenty ten, we're all in this together, at the same time, austerity stripping everything out for the poorest in society. We have Brexit, you have three hundred fifty million queid extra a week for the NHS. You have COVID, all the rules apply to everybody apart from I'm going to interrpt your three, o? I got through them. And you know social media is difficult Well, it's important to divide, isn't it It's more than difficult You know, make America great again. That's a pretty short slogan. I know what that means. Take back control. I kind of know what that means Get Brexit done. These are simple slogans. Well, let's roll back a second because a couple of those comments about those slogans you've made turned out not to be true or deeply misleading. Take back control. I don't think so. S make rure I'm not say Yeah I know just that they We are determined to actually change things, right? Not to govern simply through slogans actually changed, but long term structural changes in place in society that actually make life better for millions of people. Now can we do that in a slightly more kind of snappy way fit for the age? I'm sure we can. wereere we A little too. I wouldn't say too honest, but a little too down in the early days of the government about the predicament that we found ourselves in. Arguably yes Can we always strive to do better? Yes. Now let's talk bit about your passion because it's evident in your demeanor, but also in what you've done in your career. Where has this passion come from? Because when I look into your background, I find myself surprised to discover that your father's a Tory counsellor Not just in Cardiff, but in South Gramorgan County as well. Yeah yeah. lookook, I grew up in a household in which there was should we say a divergence of political views. It was a good household I mean, I had a fantastically wonderful, happy childhood. Did youar about politics? Well, we certainly discussed it because I say I was on one side with my mum and my siblings and my dad was in sort of somewhat splendid isolation with his admiration for the Conservative Party But it did teach me a really important lesson. I mean, I've never met a kinder, more generous person than my late father And he was an old style one nation ory We could discuss politics, but we never argued about it We could try and tease each other about it, off course But we never ever fell out about it And this kind of tribal element to politics that you know, you can't be my friend if you don't share my political views and which we're kind of increasingly seeing in this kind of fractured society. I just don't buy that because here's a person I could not have loved more whose politics were different to mine. Now we know the famous cab rank principle, which is that lawyers take the people who come to them.. but is Your opponent and friend David Wilson pointed out in a lecture, All your cabs are always heading in the same direction You always choose people who are taking on the country. Well, as often with my dear friend David, he produces a nice catchphrase, but it doesn't actually reflect the truth So of course I did those cases, and of course I did them in accordance with my professional obligations. But I had a thirty year career at the bar in, which I represented thousandousands of people And in addition to those cases, I mean I did cases for communities in the Niger Delta, which was a world first getting accountability for oil pollution. I did it for victims of sexual violence in Malawi. I represented the Grenfall Twer victims. I'm not going to go on about my cases lawyers laawyers have a terrible habit. of doing so, but my point Nick is this, I spent a thirty year career representing thousands of people I would never apologise for being a human rights lawyer neverever apologize for representing clients without fear or favour in the best traditions of the bar. And I think we just need to be careful I mean, as I said at the beginning, right? Pe can criticize me and I can kind of shrug my shoulders. do need to be careful. about not trying to bring the house down, the importance of an independent bar, the importance of an independent judicial. So when an opponent like Robert Jenrick says you work for Britain's enemies uses that phrase, you may recall, it calls you a useful idiot. Britain's enemies C't we I just think we could do better as a society than kind of descend to that sort of level. I mean, like Genick knowns full well, he was a lawyer. He knows full well what the professional obligation of a lawyer is. Where are we going as a society back? to be Chambers. D't Street chambers were set up to represent the underdog now? Sure definition of the underdog included people who's the mother of a terrorist and Jerry Adams. And' entitled to say that was a choice.n mlegation You can't refuse a case On the basis, you don't like the politics or dont you find a person morally repugnant And it is fair to say that there are people I have represented in the past whose views I find morally repugnant But the nature of the independent bar is you get on and represent without fear or favour. I need to give you an opportunity bearing in mind the limitations on what attorney generals can say to answer the criticism that Jerry Adams who you represented when you were his lawyer you were then in some way involved in the discussion around what's called the Troubles Bill, which could have allowed Republicans like Jerry Adams to claim compensation for being unlawfully detained. Yeah. No, look, and Nick, I really welcome the kind of opportunities to make something plain. There is in place in government for any attorney general when they come in from private practice a really rigorous system to about conflicts Clicts of conflicts of interest. And we absolutely on the side of caution It's something that goes through my office, it goes through the cabinet office, it goes through the independent advisor on. So there can be no world in which I would be advising on cases where I had a professional compence couldn't be involved in the discussion of p troubles. I can't go into the individuals I can't go into I havel I cannot get involved in cases in which I would have a professional conflict. And even if there was a kind of a slight question mark, I'm always, always going er on the side of caution We've talked a lot about The Lb, not just because you're Government's legal officer but also because it's been your life It was put to us when we were preparing this interview that douty street chambers the group of barristers. Kirst Am was in that you were in, that David Lamy later, the Deputy Prime Minister had something to do with, was the Eaton of the modern Labour Party. It's' the closest I've ever been to Eaton. That's for sure. Look, I left there I should say many years ago, but it was a wonderful time. It was a wonderful chambers. But just be clear, right? It's not as if it was some hotbed of radicalism. Look at K's Path. He went from there to become advisor to the Northernland Police Service and then to become DPP. before becoming becoming prrime Minister privilege the absolute genuine privilege of my lifetime is to be atttorney general, working for the government, fighting the government cases, working day in day out with the armed forces and the intelligence community That is not despite being a human rights lawyer. it's because of the life experiences that I've had, because of the legal experience that I've had, and to be able to bring that to bear for the benefit of the country and the government is an extraordinary privilege. You need to clear something up that the nation has been demanding an answer to Was Kir Starmer when you worked with him all those years ago A model for Mark Darcy and Bridget Jones. I'm afraid the Law office and convention, Nick, I can neither confirm nor deny J justust can't comment, I'mfraid. The A the Hellen feeling insists or hints, doesn't she doesn't insist?