Palantir and Public Sector Tech Reliance

How does a banana trigger a CIA backed coup Do AirPods herald the arrival of a new global order What do LED lights say about the future of humanity I'mt Conway, and in each episode of my new podcast, Stuff Matters, I take an object, crack it open, and reveal the world shaping forces hidden inside. This is economics told through the things we think we understand. Search Stuff Matters on your podcast app to listen and follow Hello, good morning and welc. It's Wednesday june third, Welcome to Pon six at Sam. An S she's Anne McKlvoy, I'm Sam Coates. I found another sign that things are basically grinding to a halt in Westminster. I am indeed, Anne Mclvoy. goodood morning. And what have you got for us on that? because I do things like that, I was going through the Cons order paper last night And I'll do so on a tip off from a libDMMP actually They were just pointing out and they're right, B business in Parliament, legislation disappeared Uh it's all but it's all but stopped coming up So if you scroll through the order paper between now and june the eighteh day at the by election when every single change. There's not much big legislation being discussed. There's a bit on steel remationalisation, but we still haven't had the stock out on that. There's a bit on cyber resilience legislation Nothing on the courts and tribunalll where've got the jury issue, notothing on the Hillsborough Bill we've got the public duty candate, all the stuff that risk H Stalmas's preremiership all seems to have been pushed to the right and together with the fact that ministers are being told that we're entering this kind of herd al like stasis I am a bit obsessed by government running on sort of a third of the energy that you need than you'd have normally to to govern a country. I just think it's a thing that is quite regrettable for the country, quite frankly. Yeah, it's also an irony there, the fact that a lot of this standoff in labour is about change and about how things should be happening faster to get the country back on its feet. But as you point out, there is an element of trically keeping going at Westminster Whereas in the background there are a lot of people just thinking, well, I don't really know where this is going. So let's wait and see. So for instance today, let's take PMQs today, premises questions will look like business as usual, The clips will Look and sound like that. Kia Starama is in the hot seat I do think it has a kabooki drama feel to it because everyone is waiting for Andy Burnham to boom or bust in makeaker feelields. It's like being stuck with a warm up band for a very long time. Yeah, you have to keep a smile on your face and just keep clapping. So that Basically in a nutshell is the theme of today's episode, Waiting for Andy. what's really going on about that in Makerfield and beyond I sat in in Porcolor's house yesday for today's podcast, spent hours talking to people there and on the phone and all part of the lab party about about what is actually going on behind the scenes. Port Colors manan It struck me that Andy Burnham started this campaign sam with his foot to the floor. He didn't make any secret of the fact that he wanted to be the change, the alternative to Star and. now he's a bit more caious and in any sense he might be worried about counting chickens before they're hatched looking presumptuous as we get closer to the by election So let's hear from Makerfield Man himself in an interview with Beth Rigby for our sister podcast Electoral Dysfunction And the subject is whether he will acknowledge what everyone knows He's going to run for Prime Minister. I'm not in the business of making assumptions about serving in people's cabinets or whatever jobs I'm going to do. I'm making a case for change in this by election, a change to labor, a change to politics, a change to the way the country is run Yeah. And I will take that fight as far as I can take it but I'm not making assumptions here about jobs that I might I know, but it's a sort of weird conversation because This is a b election, but it's a national conversation about labour and how labour might change. And you're clearly running because you want to go back and try and be prime Minister. And now so we're having this weird conversation where that's' in and then you won't say it. It's not weird becausecause I'm setting out clearly the change. I said about you, Anne, but I found that quite uncomfortable and I do wonder whether there is just an obvious clash here between the pledge that he repeats over and over that he wants to do politics differently By the way, people are allowed to interpret however they want. He doesn't get to choose how people interpret that phrase And what I can only call I'm afraid in that exchange with Beth, pololiticians's answer Well, just before we go on T's and C's very quickly, Andy Burnham is one of a number of candidates at the June eighteeth by election and makeakerfield you can see a list of all of the names in the podcast show names. G backack to the substance. Obviously there's a logic. to what Andthy Beron was doing there with Beth, right? He has to win the abll elections as you were just saying. so he doesn't want to look to use your word presumptuous And he's worried that if you talk about national policy or the prime ministerial bid that he's going to make and what he'd do in number ten or even whether he'd serve in Kist Arm's cabinet if you sort of try and get him down that path, which he declined to do with Beth yesterday. You know, you risk, you risk all of all of that. I still do wonder whether because it's obvious what he's doing, you don't just look a bit odd by you know responding in that way. What did you make of him? I thought it was fascinating that for the first time because it's been a very slick Andy Berham, he's good on communications and if you'd like to see social video of Burnnham, he's someone who looks comfortable across those platforms modern communications in an electoral fight. but I caught a little bit of a touch in his reply to Beth, I think she pushed some discomfort out of him in her interaction because you know the people of Makerfield know full well. what's going on. And I think that was the tone that she was reflecting. Don't underestimate them. It would be a bit like the Truman show to say there's only one local reality here when they're in the middle of a completely different reality and that's a national race. So why not just sayay so He couldn't really lean into that because then that would have kind of exploded this whole kind fourth wall feeling about this race But at the same time, he still wanted to get back to his points saying, I'm different. I think you could just see for the first time. I think he was struggling a bit with that. Yeah, it was Andy Berham. Good morning, and in the case, I'd see you good afternon, good evening and good night moment. I love the Truan Show metaphor there. You're completely right about that There is a disjoint between I'm not taking for granted and what we all know is going on behind the scenes. becausecause there is this work going on I'm And I am sure that people around Andy Berham are trying to work out if he does become Prime Minister sooner rather than later that he has to have a pretty big program, not necessarily of huge legislation, but of things to say and do reach the scale of a rhetoric that he's already been giving this about change pretty much from the moment he gets in And this moment could be anything from you know, three weeks away to four months away. but the kind of prevailing mood in Westminster is that it's sooner rather than later So I think it's time to start working out what that work is and who is doing it. And as we've been discussing this week, Sam, if there is a relatively swift transition, whenever it may be, it could be before the summer, if there isn't a contest. But anyway, the direction of travel will be clear soon after Makerfield Then there just has to be a plan for what happens if Burnham finds himself getting to number ten in short order. would look very irresponsible. Not to have one. Right. Here's some details for you. and I'm going to name a couple of the people that I think are helping two key names, right who are doing some stuff on the policy side. One is Miata Fan Bouo. She's the Pckermen pe economist, former think tank boss, Um, She was a minister until the kind of coup against Kizdarmer about three weeks ago. and she is a figure kind of broadly seen as being on the left of the party. close to Edin Milleraband. so the not the sort of campaign group left, but the what we would call the soft left. Josh Symons is the other one. Now he is a well known name to this podcast. He is the now exMP for Makerfield who was also head of I think, tag Labour togetherogether, not that I think he wants to be reminded of that And by the way I discovered a link Miata and Josh know each other because Miasilb was a fellow at one point at Labour together. So there is a link between the two individuals, even though they're arguably from slightly different traditions But both, I'm told by MPs are feeding into the Burnham project and to a certain extent starting to shape ideas and they're certainly the people that MPs are engaging with to get to get stuff into the into the into the mix with Andy Burnham and and they're the object of some fascination and fixation, notot least from those figures on the labour right who worry that they might lose out Miata as I mentioned, will be perceived as being more on the left. For instance, before she got into Parliament She was quite a big critic as an economist of the Tory fiscal rules and she would come on the sky and other places. talk about austerity. And you see, that's significant because the Tory fiscal rules are basically the ones more or less Rachel Reeves replicated and we'll come ono this in a moment, there's a question around whether or not Andy Burnham also copies. Well, yes, and Miata is very vocal, very punchy. I've been a lot of TV sofas and the like with her down the years talking about Political economy. And I think what she does bring in will be something like the new Economics Foundation approach. It's not going to be the Adam Smith Institute pretty that way. It leans a lot more into the role of the state. And that does leave some questions as well. I don't wouldn't fiscal rules as they now are or where she would have started her thinking on what she thinks is the right foundation for economic growth and kind of growth that she would say would be good in a labour way for broader society for equality, etcetera. But they kind of start with these rules aren't they? sound boring. a massive terror that would then look like the first early message of any Berham administration was more tax and spent. And we've heard this week from Pat McFadden and his rather salty reflections on the Labour Party's addiction to that way of thinking that that can be a problem and an eectorual liability for labour. Is the Burnham government really going to go there? or is it going to be Miata but with some constraints to sound a bit like they're still on a similar track. Rachel Reeves. I mean, my goodness I'. you've highlighted and alighted on the question, the question. I know we're a bit the podcast of Fiscal Rules, which no marketer would ever use as a strap and a selling plug, but we are because they matter We have a T shirt for that. I think so U so I'm just going to do a bit of a timeline, a bit a bit of where we are on the fiscal rules when it comes to Andy Burnham. because I think People think this is a subtle question and I want to just like disabuse them of that onn may the seventeenth ITV. Andy Burnham said, I support the fiscal rules. We need a plan to get that down. You've got to stick to fiscal discipline for context. when I hear that I think it gives you quite a lot more wiggle room than you might suicially expect. So S which fiscal rules Qite what was spll out in the manifesto or the precise wording that Rachel Reeves uses now or the definitions that underpin the precise wording that Rachel Reeves is now because of course, she changed the metric used to measure debt to a more generous one in twenty twenty four So so When he says, I support the fiscal rules, I think there's a question of which But the next day a spokesman for Andy McBurnham sort of went further So this isn't Andy himself. it's apparently one of its team. They went to Bloomberg and said U No, we not we areul explicitly ruling out any changes to fiscal rules used by Reeves F far as I'm aware, we haven't heard that from Andy Burnnam. himself and it does create huge constraints And if I'm being blunt, Anne, because we've only had it from a spokesman and not from Andy himself, I think people want to hear him clarify a bit more U because I had this from somebody who advises hedge funds and the like in the city just just last night. B by the way, this is in the context of the FT saying this morning that Andnie Benham cancellled a call with hedge funders this week. So one person who advises hedge funds told me last night I think just the forecast in the autumn will be just awful And at some point he's going to want to find some more room for investment spending to do what he wants to do. So this guy was saying, I'd just be very skeptical Ree's rules survive in full for the whole rest of the parliament You know, they was say just look at what Louise Haague is clearly key to Andy Burnham's campaign has been saying on exactly this topic. So commitment to fiscal rules, well, which of them how long and just look at the people around Andy Burnham. And I think you get that sense the sense that I'm getting is some people in city again, and know we need to hear a bit more on this before We're either reassured that you' got a plan or reassured that you're stking to exactly for the rest of the Parliament. what Rachel Reeves did, and then we'll see where we get to in the next manifesto. That was fascinating because also it reflected a catch twenty two that we opened up when we were talking about the Sky interview with Andy Bernam and Sam because if he leads too far into that sort of clarification what point does he start to have or allow people around him, let's say, to have those conversations that really do look you practically handunting out your red boxes already, aren't they if you're gettingetting into the detail, then you're absolutely right to say which fiscal rules but also which kind of application of the rules because they are like everything to do with economics, they are kind of construct as well as a reality. you could decide to emphasize some more than others, etcetera. So that will be intriguing to see where Project Burnham goes on that Let's take another look let's take a look at another issue, rather that is not just a hobby horse of the left, but I think is increasingly growing in salience in politics generally and that's the application of massive AI and tech enabled solutions at scale and one of the most controversial and important players their palanter. Yeah, I just think that The subjects of Palentir is growing and growing and growing and growing in politics and I think a big intervention has landed this morning. and it's come from the Commons Science Innovation and Technology Committee, Cross party Committee and they've weighed in on Basically to raise the red flag on Britain's reliance on US tech giant Palantir. And not just them, but also other US data providers being used in public services. The committee in a report that's out this morning says that there's an unacceptable point of weakness involving these firms that could leave people's private information at the mercy of foreign actors This is there's no doubt because of the cross party nature of this report, this is an inconvenient escalation from the company's point of view for something that previously was something that part of just the Labour Party was championing. For those that don't know, Palanir is a data analysis company contracted by governments, military and other large organisations around the world. Critics of it often focus on its role specifically in the military, quite specifically in the Middle East I'm And what this report today has done is it said, look, Palent is involved in lots of organizations, the Financial Conduct Authority as well as the NHS and others and the Chair Johon Warre, who is more on the left of the Labour Party is's saying Don't get locked so far deeply into palanter contracts that further down the line, you just cannot extract yourself if you decide that you basically Palantir' Pentaon grter in the UK and also urge the government to exercise next year's break cllawuse in the MHS contract Uh so That's the form of the debate. that's the intervention. and You followed this very closely. What's your analysis? Yeah, I probably do more on health than perhaps on other aspects of palanters business just to set some expectations on expertise there. But a big question about this federated data platform, the FDP, which Palander provides to the NHS, it brings together information across this rolling health service in the NHS in England and Wales in this case, so that hospitals and other of the NHS can analyze how their care is delivered, how it's improved. It's brilliant to breaking down silos and that's one great thing about one of these big systems at scale that can deploy AI and can iterate really quickly. Now the committee thinks that the role of Palanter could be excessive. They make that quite clear in the report. And it is fair to say there's a lot of labor activism against the company, as you mentioned providing services to immigration authorities to ISI in the U.S and to its used by the Israeli military. although I would say as a balancing point, it is absolutely vital to the war effort in Ukraine and is very, very well seen there. recently Palenter bosses received warmly by the Zelensky administration. So it's not only, if you like, on one side of that political balance sheet, So even where Streeting now is beginning to say was initially I think, wh warm towards all these big tech upgrades that he's calling for a review, the difficulty do sort of push back a little bit, having had a quick look at the report on this committee because it's not as easy to replace it as some critics are suggesting It is very embedded now across a large number Tusts in the IHS, I think, just under about one hundred seventy have signed up to it out of two hundred and. and something, and the more interoperational it is, the better for the results It does do things that are very good for patients at the front line, it finds spare capacity. It tracks, for instance, if you need an operation and need a bed or need a clinician, it can crawl across the system and maybe find a solution it would take ages for mere humans to do or separated systems. So you know, the fact that it comes out of this background, Peter Theal is its co founder. He's a controversial big tech thinker and A lot of people don't like the cut of his jib. But the fact that they do work with these big agencies, the CIA, the FBI, etca. the three letter agencies is also the thing that makes them relatively safe when it comes to data leakage. So I think you know there's a big argument going to happen Do you stick with that as the kind of devil you know How would you tear it up? And how would you Repplace it is a bit harder. I think that's that point about Palantier irrepaceable? And also the implied point by this whole debate is is Palanter materially worse than an AI or a whole series of other AI tech giants that do do work with governments around the world, including on the U.S military. we saw some of those big debates in the U. S. just earlier this year I think are more complex than sometimes the b in the UK suggest, I've got a fact for you. Is an exclusive fact? Good God How did that happen? I actually was so fascinated in this that just at the end of April, I did some polling that I've never actually used on Palantir So if the question is are MPs reading the public mood right on Palantir. If we tell people about Palentine and what they do, then they're hostile to it, right? But here's the thing This issue has no cut through at all. with the general public. eightighty eight percent of people say that they've heard little or nothing about Palantir. I doubt that's changed materially in the last few months. So