Combative Language in Parliament

This is the Guardian I don't know anything. I see that he was, I guess the mayor of a town I hear he's extremely liberal extremely about to head home was the demonised football team, The Labour sort of spad some bright young thing football team in the early two thousands.U turned again and again and again to appease them and now they've abandoned him. And what for? A pair of eyelashes and a black t shirt Lets star Bue actually. I'm Pippa Karira, and I'm Kirn Sty. And you're listening to Politics Weekly for the Guardian Hi Peppa. Are you feeling tired this morning? Oh I don't know what you mean, Kiran. Why are you asking that Did you stay up watching some football last night? I might have sat up for the first twenty minutes or so. That's probably all you needed to be fair. Very sorry about Scotland's three nil loss to Brazil last night. was disappointing for all of us English people as well. Well I would say that we were cheated, but actually having seen the first twenty minutes of the game, I'm not sure I can legitimately claim that. But I will return the commiserations on your draw against Ghana. and just point out that it isn't over for us yet. I've got this very complicated plan of how Scotland can actually still qualify. It's based on about three or four different games more than that, about six or seven different games over the next few days that we could still go through, which means I'm going to be stuck toateelle for the next three or four days just watching them all to make sure that the results come in as I'm sure they will so that Scotland can move to the next round. Yeah well, you'll obviously be there with your spreadsheet trying to figure out exactly what the permutations are for Scotland to get through. I do hope they can get through I if they look pretty poor last night, especially at the back, but I spent I have's true. I spent the second half of the England game writing a story about James Ponenell being made Chief of staff to Andy Burnham, and I have to say I don't think I missed much for having done that. you K and have a connection with not just with James Pernell, but also Andy Burnham, don't you? Be what our listeners may not know is that, well, they probably know that we've been around a bit But they may not know about you is that not only do you watch football, but you play it. overver the years you've played for the lobby team, the political journalist also been drafted in as a ringer a couple of times to a team which is probably one of the most famous in Westminster, probably not much more beyond that Don eyes. Now tell us about that? Yeah, well, I wrote a piece about this, one of my favourite commissions ever The news editor called up yesterday and said, couldould you write about this football team? And I said,ot only can I write about it, can I sprinkle my own anecdotes throughout the copy because I've played for them. This is a team called Demon Eyes. It was set up in nineteen ninety eight Panneell and Tim Allen, might remember him as the former communications director T Kia Starmer And in its early iterations, it included Those two obviously, David Milliband was a keymber of the team. Every so often Ed Balls would turn out, although I've been reminded by former members of the team that he wasn't a very regular player for them. But the interesting thing about this team is they used to play up in North London. When they first got set up, they were all Labour special advisors. They were kind of the new generation. They were young. they were in their late twenties, early thirties they were the future of the Labour Party They spent several years playing together and then they kind of reached senior roles in government and then went out into other industries. I played a few games for them when James Panneell I think from what I remember, he was C captain, but he was certainly a very good centre back But the interesting thing is like this The team seems to be reconvening back at the heart of Labour politics and Westminster. So you've got Andy Berham, who's a very good centre forward, James Pennell, there's rumours of David Milliband coming back as foreign Secretary. These are not only old friends, this is an old football team that is about to come and take over the country again, and it's just a brilliant piece of new labour history And they I think that's the point, isn't it? iss new labor history. And so the fact that the band is getting back together or should as I should put it, the team is getting back together. has caused a few ripples of concern amongst particularly the left of the Labour Party, because James Pernell, for example, was a Blairright cabinet minister. He in fact quit Gon Brown's cabinet in an attempt to launch a coup against him and oed him. That was unsuccessful because nobody followed suit. but he was very much a sort of a flag bearer of the Blairright faction. And since leaving politics, he's work for the BBC, he's worked for university Most recently, he's been chief executive of a company called Flint Global, which is an advisory firm. It's got big clients including BP, Amazon, Jaguar Land Rover, Uber and Tems W. And while the company said that James Pernell's given up his shares and he'll no longer have a connection with the firm he doesn't access to the emails or anything like that with immediate effect, It still is worrying a few Labour MPs about what it says about you know bringing people with those sorts of professional business links right into the heart of Downing Street. It's not just his business connections, I think, that are worrying people on the left. I think it's it's his ideology, it's the part of the party he comes from. He is a Bair, right? I was on News night last night and they played a clip of James Pennell appearing on the program from about fifteen years ago, I think and I think it must have been working pensions seecretary at the time. And he went on to argue for benefit cuts And a whole new system of welfare in fact, he wanted to make the system more favorrable to people who were just coming out of work, who'd may be paid into the system for a long time, but less favorraable to other people. And of course, inevitably, he was asked, I think it was Jeremy Paxman asked him, so what would you cut Guess what the first thing he suggested to cut was? Go on, tellell us Winter fuel allowance. interestnteresting. hisis first idea of where to cut. So this is a guy who was touting ideas that probably the one thing that brought Keirst Armmer down more than anything else. And I think that's why left wing MPs are very worried. They remember what he was like in government and they don't think he's one of them. One left wing MP said to our colleague Roina Mason yesterday, I'm just starting to worry that Andy' spent the last few months telling us all what we want to hear. Andy Burnham does have a history of doing. He has a reputation for being a very good listener, but part of that is that people come in and he talks to them, he looks them in the eye I wouldn't say he flutters his eyelashes. Oh no, I've just said it. But he looks them in the eye and he probably does listen and take on board of what they're saying But then if he does that with everyone, you leave the room, MPs tell us, you leave the room feeling that he has not just heard what you've said but understood the importance of it and is likely to act on it suggest given Andy Burnham is spending this week or has been spending this week at Westminster, he's now headed back up to Manchester, meeting groups of MPs and hearing what their thoughts are, that there may be a lot of people out there who think that he is going to deliver for them who may end up over time being disappointed. But let's see because he of course, isn't in Downing Street yet There's a little way to go. and one of the things that a lot of people around him are saying to me is that we shouldn't focus on the personalities, the people that are could be put in particular positions, that his priority is making sure that his platform for government is in the right place. Now, that is, of course, right, that that is his priority. But what I think it neglects to acknowledge is that by putting people in certain jobs, you will have a greater or lesser degree of success delivering whatever your policy priorities are Depending on their own views, depending on their ability to make great change to get the civil service machine working in their favor So actually, who has these jobs is important and no job, of course, is more important after Prime Minister than Chancellor of the Exchequer? Yeah, I just think that this is going to be the decision that defines Andy Burnham's Premiership more than any other. and there are such different options on the table for him Ed Milliband is a very different politician with very different ideas from W' Streeting and it could be neither of those two people, you know, Pat McFadden would be different altogether Johnny Reynolds would be different altogher. Shabana Maud would be different altogether. This is going to end up being such an important decision for him. partarticularly it'll tell us whether He wants to be the Andy Burnham that he used to be as a minister in Westminster, as a kind of reforming Bairright who's willing to use the markets to achieve what he thinks needs to be done with public services. Or is he much more the more modern day Andy Burnham, the guy who wants to bring back utilities under public control and nationalized parts of their water and energy industries. Frankly, West Streeting would be an unlikely Chancellor to oversee that latter agenda. Ed Milana think would be much more comfortable with it. Everybody I talk to it's not just unions, lots of business people, investors are all saying how worried they are about Ed Milliband, maybe slightly unfairly. One investor told me yesterday, well it's just the vibes of him that I don't like, which is, you know, slightly unfair way to judge your chancellor But it is true. And you know, if you do want to keep business on board and you know, business friendly socialism, I think Any Benham has talked about, you need the business part of that. Pppy, you've got a cat comeome to join us. I think This is my black cat posossum Possum Vader, he's called Vader by the Kids Star Wars. He I'm at home today because we've had a plumbing disaster, which is not what we want on the hottest day of the year. So I'm sitting in my kitchen And my cat has decided to join in. so apologies if you heard a meow there He's obviously very interested in politics. Well I think we'll disappear in a second. I think he should join him. Possum can offer his thoughts on E Millibander as well. I wonder whether this will get announced on Monday at Andy Berham's planned speech, which we now hear will be in Manchester. Interesting. I think he needs to decide it sooner because otherwise people are going to start getting antsy in the m kids Yeah. And I think just one of the thing I'd say though is that it is quite it says quite a lot in itself that we don't know yet which way he'll pitch with his Chancellor. And it says quite a lot about the fact that Andy Burnham has really transformed as a politician, I'll be generous, transformed as a politician over the years and has held quite a quite a range of different views that he would say were reflections of his experience at any given time in his life, that you know his position towards the economy changed as Manchester Mayor because he was running a big city that was already had a real plan for growth. and obviously that's been incredibly successful, but still had his sort of his socialist roots, if you like. And then of course had as you say, he was a Bairite as well. And so it's quite telling that we don't know yet which wayo pitch, but also interesting, and it says something about his approach to the Labour Party and factionalism or his view on factionism He's made it quite clear, and this is one of the things he said to me when I was up in Makerfield with him a couple of weeks ago, that he wants a boro church, that he looks back at the era of politics that when he first came to Westminster under Blairn Brown, And he saw that they were both confident and comfortable enough in themselves as leaders to feel able to feel relaxed about having people from all wings of the party in their government, including in the cabinet. And that's something that hasn't been replicated by Kir Starmer, who many of his own MPs feel has been much more factional Now there's an argument for factionalism. I mean may we won't use that word, but there's certainly an argument for having people in your cabinet that you know will deliver on your priorities rather than try and sort of their pl their own furrow and sort of their own track to deliver their own policy priorities. It does take quite a lot by Andy Bernerm in his view about how his party should be as sort of a broader church or work more together than it has done in recent times. Do you get a sense of who he's listening to, right then? And there's obviously competing people trying to grab his air and try to power because everything's so much in flux. Who's he actually listening to at the moment? Well I think we're learning more over time and actually I'm going to be writing a piece today which hopefully by the time the podcast goes up will be published as well. So do look out for it on the Battle for Andy Burnham's year. And we know that that you know he's got people who he has relied on for a long time, James Penllis, onene of them, Kevin Lee, his chief of staff in Manchester, a close friend I mean, the two sort of joined at the hip all through the years of hisanchter G Manchester Meralty. Friends in politics like Lucy Powell, who he worked with in the Shadow Cabinet and his Manchester Central MP has become a close friend as well. So they' s of the long standing friends and allies. and bear in mind he's been around in politics for a long time. so that is quite a broad group of people And then there's there's sort of the Aravists, if you like, the people who he may have known for a while, like Louise Haig, who was he met initially, who was a researcher for Lisa Andy in the neighboring constituency, but then obviously became an MP herself. They know seemen to be quite politically similar and Lou Haig ran his campaign in Makerfield successful campaign now running up his or heading up his transition team is likely to play a key role in any Andy Burnham government, know an increasingly important role to the extent that actually some others around who have been supportive of Burnham feel a bit elbowed out. So the sort of the new advisers Annalise Midchley is another one, Sally Jameson. These are people who know MPs have been in the Labour movement for a long time, but have sort of risen, if you like, under the Burnham impending Burnham leadership. And then there's a whole we don't know. I mean, we just don't know who's going to bring in. Is he going to have Andy Haldane, the former chief economist of the Bank of England as an advisor in Downing Street? Is he going to bring in Jim O'Neill, former Treasury minister under the Conservatives chair of Goldman Sachs to help him? And what do having appointments like that say about the direction that his government's going to go in So we know some of it. We're learning more and there's lots people still don't know Well, one of the interesting things about the new cabinet is not only who's going to come in and who's going to change the job, but who's going to continue in the jobs that they currently do. One of the most obvious people to talk about is probably the homeome Secretary Shibana Mammou now We know that despite Andy Burnham tacking to the left on certain issues, he hasn't done so on migration. And we ran a piece during the campaign Jess Alga and I wrote a piece saying that he did back Shabana Mahud's. attempts to crack down on legal and illegal migration. and that will annoy some in his own party. But I wouldn't be surprised If Shabana Mahmouud stays at the home office for that reason and we're told she would like to. so that might be an entirely sensible thing to do. His kind of weak policy points are probably foreign policy and defense. I say weak, we just don't know what he thinks about them. and it's not really what his focus is. So could decide to just stick with the people in those jobs. We've talked about maybe bringing back David Milliliband as foreign Secreary but keepingvette Cooper in there be just as plausible. Dan Jarvis could stay as defefense seecretary despite all the public lobbying going on by supporters of John Healley and Al Karn. You know there are certain areas, I think, on which he's not going to want to rock the boat too much. notot least because if you just bring in a whole suite of new ministers, they're going to take some time to get up to speed. OK, well let's pause here for a minute and when we come back, we'll talk about what Donald Trump has said Andy Berham The World Cup is back and because we have no off switch football Weekly is going daily. If you want a podcast with more footballing heritage than a Brazil number ten, more talent than a French starting eleven and more predictable than an England penalty shootout, look go further. We'll have thirty three daily episodes covering not just the goals and the glory, but the politics and the problems of this year's tournament. Can England and sixty years of hurt? Join me, Max Rushon Our expert panel and Barry, every day at the tournament, Wlc up daily, listen wherever you get your podcasts, or watch the full episodes on YouTube Welcome back. Ppper beforefore the break, we were talking about who might be Andy Burnham's foreign secretary. And he's already had his first brush with foreign policy because overnight, Donald Trump decided to make some comments about the incoming likely incoming British Prime Minister Here's what he had to say. I don't know anything. I see that he was, I guess the mirror of a toown I hear he's extremely liberal extremely So that means you probably won't up and up the notes. You know I gave I gave Kir Stomers some pretty good advice. I said, open up The North Sea. Well, that's going to be quite a challenge for Andy Burnham. Trump apparently thinks he's very liberal and doesn't think he'll open up the North Sea Pepp, you actually spoke to Andy Burnham a couple of weeks ago when he seemed to kind of broadly agree with the approach that K Stam has taken to the U.S. presresident, right? Yeah, well, there's a couple of things. He basically said to me that in normal circumstances you want a good relationship between the US and the UK But if you can't agree with them, then you also have to say that And that is the only way to deal with him. And he basically said that Kir Stahmer had taken the right approach there. Bearing in mind that this is towards the end of Kir Stahmer's leadership when he really started to push back a bit at some the things, a bit more at some of the things that Donald Trump had said, some of the personal attacks. The relationship, Andy Burnham told me that the relationship is important to the UK, but not to the point where we just go along with anything that they say He was also more critical directly of Trump to me and subsequently to others he spoke to during the Makerfield campaign, describing his brand ics is polarized and poisonous and warning that sort of type of politics could travel across already was traveling across the Atlantic and was in danger of taking hold here. So I don't think he's going to shy away of saying what he thinks about Trump. I should just add though, I think we were all quite by by how Donald Trump reacted to Zarin Mamdani when he became Mor of New York. And they had that meeting at the White House, if you'll remember, where Mamdani came in and we were all expecting some sort of massive showdown, some political clash maybe some sort of dressing down from Trump of Mamdani. and instead, he had this incredible warmth towards the New York mayor. I've spoken about that's okay. You can just say. It's easier. It's easier than exploiting a pedal. includluding in the same reporter's spray as they call it in the White House. as he talked about Andy Burnham. He was saying, o, you know, M Danny is such a good looking guy. He likes people who he feels are sort of attractive personalities as well, who are warm who are charismatic, who are popular. And you know so far, Andy Burnham I'm not again, this is the second time I said, I'm not going to make a comment about his eyelashes I seem to coming back to it. But Andy Burnham is those things. He's charismatic, he's popular. and he's warm and he has an ability to connect emotionally with people that Kir Starmer didn't, which is of course one of the reasons why Labour MPs want him in Downing Street. Well look, I mean, I didn't take Trump saying he's very, very extremely liberal as actually feeling in any way angry or hostile towards him Trump likes to kind of gently tease people. He likes to kind of yank people's chain in the American every so often. and I saw it as that, like a little nudge to say, hey, this is what I want you to be. But as you say, he's been fine with Mamandani. So I can imagine the two of them actually getting on quite well We should also talk about another area that Andy Benham has not really said very much on, which is defence. And it was really interesting. We've both written a piece and we can link to that in the show notes It was really interesting to me that senior defense officials went up to Makefield during the by election campaign to try and lobby Burnham on you what they wanted to see on security and defense, particularly, I guess on spending more on the military. Yeah, and there's been this big row over the Defense investment plan, which was initially supposed to be published under Cast Armor last year. and it still hasn't seen the light of day. We're told that it's going to be published before the NATO summit on july the seventh, but the clock is ticking. And of course, John Healley quit over this saying that the plan as proposed by Dining Street with the Treasury's backing would not keep Britain safe. So this is a really difficult moment, not just in terms of national security, making sure that the forces are not just properly funded, but also effective and efficient. There's been a huge amount of waste in the MOD, but also it's a huge moment politically. And it was really interesting that there are senior officials who have worked on Dakir Starmer who as part of the access talks, as they're called, sort of the conversations that the incoming administration will have with the existing administration, the handover process are going to raise with Andy Burnham's team their plans for war bonds. Now, this is an idea which has been rejected on several occasions by the treasury who say that it's not affordable, it adds more to borrowing, and therefore there's a fiscal impact of that. But as we've also reported, even Morgan McSweeny, Kis Starmer's former Chief of staff, very powerful man had been planning to push again for these war bonds, these defense bonds before he left office. and it was one of the things still on his to do list when he resigned over the Peter Manderson rouse. So it's really fascinating that the outgoing regime, despite having been blocked by the treasury repeatedly, is now suggesting that they think Andy Berham might have the clout basically instruct the treasury to do it anyway Yeah absolutely. is a fascinating idea, this one. I just thought I Very quickly if listeners can kind of tolerate a bit of policy geekerry here, just run through exactly how this idea works because it's pretty fully fleshed out There was an idea on the table as part of the defefence invvestment plan. It had been pushed in the past by Morghgan McSweeney, as you say, Pipper and more recently it' been pushed by Verun Chandr that. Kirst Thamm is Business addvisor. and the idea is that you would create these specific bonds that people would buy and would be the money raised from it would only be used for defense And one interesting bit of this is you would make those bonds exempt from inheritance tax. you'd give people basically a tax advantage to owning them And part of the reason for doing this is so that you don't just get them boughtght up by hedge funds because big international hedge funds often own a lot of British debt. And there are people in the British government who think that's a problem. because anytime there's a slight fluctuation in the market, you've got an international hedge fund. They're trading all over the place. they're very fast to trade. They just sell and selling drives up the price of borrowing for the UK government. So they think that some of the volatility we've seen in the bond markets for the UK in the last few years is partly because of who's actually owning the bonds. So what they want to do is they want to encourage more domestic retail investors. This is just ordinary people gotot a bit of money to spend, might choose to spend it on a savings account, might choose to buy some shares with it. They want to incentivize them to buy British government debt. And what you would then do is create a whole class of investors in the UK who own government debt And those people they think are less likely to sell it very quickly and provide maybe some more stability for the UK's borrowing costs. That's an intriguing idea. As I say, it got very fleshed up, it got very far along the system. And in the end, the treasury just said, sorry, we're not taking on any more debt We just don't think we can do that As you say, Pi, I think that idea is now going to be passed on, including by people in number ten to the incoming administration. So let's see, maybe Berham and maybe his new chancellor, whoever it turns out to be, finds a way to square that circle that we've been talking about where John Healy resigned because there wasn't enough money for defence. And what's really interesting, Kiirin is that this morning, Rachel Reeves, the current Chancellor, although set to leave the role under Andy Burnham, has said that the defence investment plan will will involve more money spent more efficiently. And she also said that classifying defence spending as investment could allow more borrowing within her fiscal rules. So there may be a rooutot for more money for defence above thirteen point five billion pounds that we understand is extra that is likely to come from the Starmer plan we may end up seeing more when it's published by Kir Starmer, which would of course allow the whole sort of debate over defence spending to move on for now and avoid a very major was going to say grenade given we're talking about defence, per that's all the best metaphor for Andy Beron wakening in his in tray when he arrives at Dining Street. Talking about explosive language, can we just touch on one thing quickly before we finish, whichich is a kind of interesting round. might just be worth dwelling on a little bit. Yesterday, Kemmy Badennock stood up at Prime Minister'sQuions. And the P prime Minister's questions after a prime Misters announced their resignation are often quite a gentle affair. You know, the leader opposition says some nice things about things they've done. Prime Minister of the dayay feels bit more relaxed and throws a few jokes around. The Tory leader decided not to do that. She said that Kirstammer had been betrayed and had four hundred knives stuck in his back. She accused Bridget Phillips and the education Secretary of being a spiteful class warrior. But to be fair, to be fair, to be fair, they're not all traitors and deserters. Some of his cabinet have been loyal loyal and incompetent. Hands up if you think the education secary is doing a good job Even she doesn't think she's doing a good job, Mr Speaker It was all such kind of vitriolic language that the spepeaker of the House of Commons, Linday Heoyle ended up kind of warning her let's think about the language we use. And then there was this almighty row, we're told between Bridgete Phillipson and Kemmy Badeno themselves behind the spepeaker's chair in the kind of corridor behind the Chamber of the House of Commons, where Basically, they went after it in person and Kemmy Bayen absolutely did not back down and repeated her criticisms. and Bridgget Phillipson had to go back. There's two schools of thinking on this One is that politics has become too combetative, that Kemy Baayennock in particular is too fond of the quick insult and that this is kind of cheapening and cosening our politics. The other is This has always been the case, and maybe it's a little bit hypocritical. We're just seeing it from a female leader now. We should be as willing to tolerate that as we have been in the past with male leaders trading bgs across the island in the past. Well, look, it is not a new thing for politicians to trade in insults, including in some quite brutal ones. know Angela Rayner describes her opponents as Tory Scum We had Hannah Spencer, the new Green MP being criticised for talking about the reform MP sitting behind her in the Cons, describing them as grrubby. This is not a new phenomenon and it happens across party. Where I think it crosses the line is where some of the imagery evoked is violent. And we had that with John McDonnell, talking about Esther McVeigh, the Tory MP saying she should be lynched We had that with George Osborne suggesting that he wouldn't rest until Theresa May was chopped up in bags in my freezer. And Kemy Bedenoak's language around Kir Starmer being knifeed in the back by four hundred of his own MPs. That for me crosses a line when you've had MPs lives actually put at risk. and tragically in two cases in recent years with David Damis, the Tory MP and Joe Cox the Labour MP both being being killed and murdered in the line of duty. I would prefer it if They are going to engage in these political criticisms, they're a bit more elegant about it. And I thought that Harold Wilson always had a good line in political putdowns. He described his rival, Tony Ben as the only man I know who imatures with age. And he' a brutal analysis of Ted Heath then Prime Minister or then his big political opponent He described him as being a shiver looking for a spine to run up. So go back to the old days, I reckon. moreore classy. Well, absolutely, let's go back even further because this is what Benjamin Israeli said about William Gladstone. If Gladstone fell into the Thames, that would be a misfortune. And if anybody pulled him out that, I suppose would be a calamity. So we love an insult, but please just make them as old fashioned as possible That's the conclusion there. If you haven't already, you can watch my interview with Andy Berham that we've mentioned a couple of times in this podcast From when I followed him on the campaign trail, Mcerfield a couple of weeks ago, and you can find that on YouTube, search for Politics Weekly to find this podcast channel But that's all from us for now. Thanks for listening, and if you haven't already, please like and follow pololitics with the UK to make sure you keep getting our episodes in your feed. We have a special episode tomorrow to mark ten years since the Brexit referendum. That'll be available in your feed tomorrow morning and it features interviews with some of the key players were around at the time and loads of anecdotes, I have to say that I've never heard before. So do tune into that And please keep your emails coming. Is there something you would like to know about Andy Burnham? Do let us know We can talk about it in our next episode email us on politicswekly UK at theguardian. com That's politicswekly UK at theguardian. com This episode was produced by Frankie Toby, music was by Exel Cakutier, and the executive producer is Maz epterhj. And a special starring appearance from Possum the Cat. Goodbye. Thanks, Possum. Bye bye This is the Guardian.