Is the UK becoming ungovernable?

This is the Guardian. question my party is asking now Where the I am, best place to lead us into the next general heard the answer of my parliamentary party to that question And I accept that answer with good grace I'm Pippa Carirro, and I'm Karein Stacey, and you're listening to Politics Weekly For the Guardian. So Kir, the moment that we've been talking about for months has finally arrived. We both came into work early this morning. because it was our understanding that Kir Stmer was about to announce he would stand down Pime Minister and we wanted to be here, obviously to see all of that unfold There was a huge amount of uncertainty still early, very early this morning about whether he would actually announce today oret whether it could drift what exactly he would say, whether he would leave immediately or there would be some sort of transition, but we started hearing properly that this was on the cards over the weekend, didn't we Yeah, I mean, it seems to have been quite an extraordinary weekend by all accounts because on Friday here someone was telling everybody he would stay and fight and he wasn't going to give in the towel that early. And then he retreated to Checkers, the Prime Minister's country of state with his wife, Victoria I just seems to have thrashed things out and as you heard over the weekend, he started drafting his resignation statement on Saturday Frid night and Saturday seem to be really important days because from what we're told, several ministers told him that they were likely to resign or at least say something openly in cabinet on Tuesday if he hadn't set out a timetable for his departure. and that seems to have been the message that finally convinced the Prime Minister that H time was up and by Saturday evening, it looked pretty clear that he'd made his mind up Yeah, that's right. And I've spoken to a few of Kistamers in a circle this morning to find out exactly how that thought process changed. And one of them said to me in a very Kist starmer fashion that it was a stark evaluation of the facts that actually ultimately tipped him into recognizing that he needed to go and that that was partly because Andy Burnham had won the Makerfield by election, not just by a little bit but by quite a lot and crucially by more than the combined votes of the parties on the right, which given that this by election was been seen as sort of like a test case for the Labour Party and Annie Burnham to see whether he could take on Nigel Farage nationally. That was quite important. And also the reality of that if there was a contest and Kostama did fight, he was starting from behind. And over the process of that contest, the best outcome he could hope for would be him being returned to power and his party on side for now, but it would be over even more fractured and divided party than he already had, which as we've said often in recent weeks, is very divided The best outcome for the party and the country would be that the party would remain united and the only way of that really happening would be if Andy Burnham won. So a contest would actually weaken him as a potential future prime minister. And what we do know about Kstar is that he's very beautiful and he will genuinely have been thinking about what was in the best interest of the country, his own career a little bit further down that list Every politician is priide, E every politician has ego and I'm sure that course would have been a factor, but not the most important one And on the evaluation of all those facts, he came to the conclusion that actually this was the only course possible. And then the timing, as you say, was driven by the fact this had to be done as soon as possible. He wanted to stave off resignations. that doesn't work well for anybody. would have been his thinking. And Andy Burnham, who made clear, as we reported, as we revealed last Thursday that he wanted Kara to be given the weekend to come to his own decision would we're told have been willing to act should he not have come out outside number ten and said he was going to go. And all the while while he's holded up in Checkers and Andy Berham was actually at home with his family keeping a relatively low profile, although I did enjoy the photos of him wearing Birken stocks out for a walk over the weekend But while those two key characters were kind of huddled with their own families, essentially Messages were being passed from Louis Hague the MP for Sheffield Healley and one of Ai Benham's closest aides or closest allies now from her to Darren Jones, Kirstarmer's chief secretary, letting him know how much support they had. and from what we're told, the number of MPs who'd signed up to support Andy Burnham in any leadership contest was climbing over the weekend went well beyond two hundred, you know, even close to three hundred, which would have been bulk of the Parliamentary Labour Party and And I think when you're talking there Pipper about a stark evaluation of the facts, those are the only facts that matter.s just the sheer numbers.'re all against Armor. Yeah, abbsolutely. As we say, he would have begun any contest way behind. speech itself was actually sharpen point, I'm told it was written by Ben Nunn, who, as well as being Rachel Reeves's Chief of Staff, is a former aide, former very close aide to Kirstarmer and remains a close friend Well let's have a listen to some of the speech When I leave the biggest job I shall spend more time on the most important Be the best husband I can my fantastic wife Vick, who has been a rock by my side through good times and bad And being the best dad I can to my beautiful children. Wh are my pride and my joy Thank you very much I mean, it started up ninety percent of that speech was veryery kerara. It was hearing a man not in a particularly charismatic tone of voice list his achievements over the last two years And then just at the end, to hear his voice break in the way that it did when I'm talking about his wife and his kids Obviously, as we all know Starmer has put up this barrier, has never let him himself show any emotion. That's almost been a defence mechanism for him. ing in these, you know, kind of extraordinarily intense fields in which he's worked. So to see that was really wrenching. and it reminded me a little bit of seeing Gordon Brown's family stood behind him just at the end of his premiership. These moments, these kind of end of office resignation statements, they bring out something that we often don't see in politicians. Thesa made' another one when her voice broke and she looked like she was crying when she gave her statement. I mean, this is sort of a very profound moment for the Prime Minister. And actually as one of his close friends said to me, he doesn't have that sort of oldldatonian ease that lots of former prime ministers have. and he has sort of built up this defense mechanism, this shield that he he hasn't been able to break down despite repeated attempts by multiple communications advisors. And that has been one of his failings really, is that he's not had that emotional connection with photers. But there we saw it at the very end of the speech. The other thing which I thought was very important was how he could have come out and been quite angry and made it clear that he was being forced out against his wishes and sort of sent a signal that either he wasn't happy about that or that he wouldn't help Andy Burnham, should it indeed be Andy Burnham, as it now looks likely on his transition to power. But he made it absolutely clear that he would do everything I can, he said, to ensure an orderly handover. I will give my successor my full and unequivocal support, he says, and making the point that Andy Bernon would inherit Britain, which is stronger and fairer than the one that Kammer inherited, better prepared for the challenges ahead and better able to ensure the Labour Party secures a second term in office. That of course, going back to that point about the number of Labour MPs who backed in that you made Kirin is the key point. Labour MPs felt that Kirst Stammer would not be able to see off the Niggeel challenge Burner may not be able to, but they feel that it was worth of roll the dice Yeah, absolutely. So we're gonna this is what it's like in politics, isn't it? We're going to move on Fr Kiss T time and we're going to start talking about what will come next As the Prime Minister announced this morning, on the ninth of July, Labour's ruling National Executive Committee will open nominations for a new leader There will be a week for people to gather their names and they will close by the sixteenth of july If no one other than Burnham stands, he will be imposed or can be imposed from the seventeenth of July, although I think we're now expecting maybe he might take a couple of days to take up office And of course, if there is a contest and other somebody else does get the eight to one nominations The Prime Minister said today that he hopes any contest will be done by the end of August in time for Parliament to come back. the beginning of September, all of which means StAmer is likely to attend the NATO summit on the seventh of July. by which time as we know, we need some kind of defense investment plan twenty second of july, however, this was going to be one of the moments that cemented Stalmer's legacy. That's the European summit at which the big reset deal is due to get announced That will not be him in office. It will be the next prrime Minister presuming there's not a contest at the time that we willll get to attend in the UK's behalf. And the reason we're thinking that there is more likely to be a coronation than a contest is because Wes Streeting, the former health seecretary who quit the cabinet in protest really at Kistama's leadership said very quickly after the speech and after Andy Berham confirmed that he would indeed be running, that he wouldn't be running in any contest. Now we've had speculation for weeks now that Wes Streeting if you talk to his camp had the numbers, the eighty one nominations required to run, but also a huge dose of skepticism from others in the party, including it has to be said from within Andy Burnham's camp that he didn't actually have the numbers after all. And West Steting said that he' spent quite a long time speaking to Andy Berner over the weekend perhaps when Beron was out on those walks and his birken stocks that you mentioned, Kieran And he hass obviously come to the conclusion that he wants to roll in behind Burnham. He said in a statement that we could spend the summer exaggerating small differences, or we could roll up our sleeves and help him Andy Burnham to deliver the change our party and country needs. That is the choice that I'm making, says West Streeting, and I hope that everyone else will back Andy Burnham too. So that makes a coronation much more likely I think the idea Kirin that somebody else, perhaps a labour woman, could throw their hat in the ring seems to have receded this morning. I mean the Labour Party, as an aside, has a reputation for being terribly slow about all these sorts of things. It's aories with a reputation for effective regiside and extreme efficiency when it comes to replacing leaders, but this has all being sort of done and dusted, it feels like in a few hours So unless somebody comes out of the blue, with the numbers, which looks pretty unlikely now. I think the idea of an eventte Cooper or Bridget Phillipson kind of worked if there was going to be a contest that Burnham and Wes Streeting both fought in, but I think they would find it difficult despite misgivings in some quarters of the Labour Party to launch a challenge and inflict a contest on the party which would take up Burnham's time and he should be preparing for government and so on It now looks more likely than not that we're going to have Andy Burnham in Downing Street in time for that EU Ret summit on july twenty second and possibly even a few days before in time for the World Cup final, which as a Scot, I think will be between two far flung countries, but you might think the Prime Minister of might be there, given that England fans months you seem to think that they might end up in the final. You say you don't expect Scotland to be in the final Oh no, that's a terrible admission, isn't it? No.ur next game is against Brazil, so I be list as well Well I think it has been one of those extraordinary mornings, P you talk about the speed at which the Labour Party has acted very uncharacteristically. I mean, the number of times people have toald me that know the Labour Party just doesn't do registide yet, but the Labour Party has never really had a prrime mininister who's this unpopular before. Just to let a little sunlight behind the curtain to Mgol metaphors about how we have our reporting I was just down in Port Collis House, the modern atrium in Parliament bump into an MP, sit them Why are you guys still writing about the possibility of a contest? We all know it's not going to happen. We all know Wes doesn't have the numbers. And we all know that Andy' going to be the prrime mininister in a few weeks and yet, you guys in the media keep ramping up because you just want the drama. Well, Well, you know, we have to report what we're told. I went from that Straight into a conversation with one of Wes Streeting's key allies who insisted to me WS does have the numbers and will be running and you know you should expect a contest in the next few weeks. And what I should add is that you came back to the office ready to tell us all of this to the news. Broken ten second before, presumably when you were in the l and at a mobile reception that Wes Streeting had in fact come in behind Andy Ber. It was very embarrassing and I have texted that WS Streeting ally him off But you know we can only report what we are told. So that is why sometimes you will see reports that you think, well, you know is that likely to happen? when we try and give you all of the context of it. Now there will be, in fact there's already been a huge amount of jostling for position as suddenly everyone finds that they've been a longstanding Andy Burnham supporter and you know why they and will want to make the case to him and his team about why they would be best placed to be chancellor or foreign secretary or homeome seecreary or whatever it ends up being. Now that is of course, one of the things that Andy Berham needs to work out. I had a conversation with one of his close advisors a couple of days ago said to me, Look, his priority has to be policy platform, what he would do first when he came into government And we already know from those conversations that in the very early hours of Andy Bernen preremiership he would make a big announcement on devolution. He's obviously a long standing supporter in giving more power back to people, addressing really the sort of lack of agency that a lot of people feel, I think, at a local level about and sort of the distance they feel from Westminster. We're likely to hear much more of that over coming weeks inevitably there's a fascination with who does what job most particularly Chancellor. and there will be some speculation that West Streeting has cut a deal with Andy Berham for one of the big jobs, whether that is home secretary. I mean there' been some Suggestions that Sab Bannam M Mood might stay in place, certainly when I was up in Makerfield talking to Andy Burnham, he spoke very warmly of her as home secretary and was very supportive of the quite difficult choices that she was making. Foreign secreties, another option, should they decide to move on E Cooper, although it has been a notable lack of comment or insight from or into Andy Burnnham as to what he feels about international issues and youll feel that he might need to shore up with somebody who's got experience of foreign affairs or defence and then of course, the Chancellor, the big other job that lots of people have their eye on. it looks increasingly likely that Rachel Viewes will not stay in post Wh do we think'll get it Burnham's allies have been clear with me for a couple of weeks now that Rachel Reeves is absolutely not going to stay in post. They say, how can we say that we're doing something new. if we keep the Chancellor on from the previous government so I'd absolutely believe that she will be on her way out whether to another job or not. I don't know The other person that I'm told is not really in the running anymore for Chancellor is Shabana Mahmouud And that might be because she's made it clear she wants to remain in the home office It seems to be coming down now to a tussle between two men. One is Ed Milliband, and one is Wb Streeting. There are lots of reasons to go for either one of those. att the moment, the feeling is that it's Wes Streetings, mayaybe that's the deal he's done, as you mentioned. with Andy Berham to back him in this contest Lots of reasons that he might want to do that One good reason is that in the last few weeks, West Street has made a series of policy announcements, one of which was lifting capital gains tax, which could be something that Andy Burnham fully gets behind as a way of raising money for some of the other things he wants to do One of the problems with putting we streeting in that position is that I think it is unclear that he would fully back the idea of public ownership of utilities in the way that Andy Berham wants to achieve For that reason, lots of people are talking about Ebinaban instead. let me just throw one final name into the mix here, which Two or three people now have mentioned to me as possible chancellor, and that's Miata Fambulla who is one of the new intake of MPs. She is relatively untested. She was a junior mininister in the Ministry of Housing, Local Government and commommunities until recently. She's very supportive Andy Benham, she's an economist, She's a very serious policy person The feeling is that if Andy Berham wanted to jump to a new generation and to kind of sweep away some of the factional fights that have gone on over the last couple of years the way to signal that. Yeah And I think there's three key things that Andy Bernhan will be considering when he is working out who he wants to appoint as Chancellor. The first of which is that if he only has a couple of years to the next general election, it has to be somebody that ultimately will do his bidding. And you can imagine in different ways, W Streeting pushing back against some of Andy Berham's policy ideas, equally, someone like Matfan Bullo is further the left or in Ridiband who's so wded to the net zero agenda and all the implications and all gas as a result of that might feel that they wanted to push back on Burnham as well. So that's point number one. Point number two is the politics of it and how it looks to the public Public perceptions of individual politicians they see W streeting as being much more to the right of the party. Some people see Ed Milliband being riskier in terms of the markets unsettling them because they regard him as being further to the left of they we should out. He did work for Gordon Brown at the Treasury and he wasn't exactly seen as a raging Lty. And of course, politicians' unpopularity with the wider public is how Kir Starers ended up where he is, ultimately So Andy Bernner will want to keep a close eye on the popularity of his chancellor, though they are generally found at the bottom of list of the cabinet, aren't they? And then the third thing is that he will want somebody who can deliver change. And that suggests that he might want to go for somebody who's got experience of handling Whitehole where Streeting was quite often criticised from within the Department for Health when he was running it because he was great at the presentation, great at the politics, but many people felt didn't have such a grasp on policy. Miata van Bulla is relatively inexperienced. in those terms. Ed Milliband is praised by Tories like Michael Gove for his effective handling of the civil serervice and having spent so long in the treasury previously, you can absolutely see him walking in, being presented with a raft of documents by dutiful civil servants saying, Well no chancellly you can't do this and him ripping them up and saying, actually will do what you say I do Yeah, I mean that would be a fascinating dynamic. It's worth pointing out as well that there's going to be a series of events today, which are going to make for great and already have to a certain extent, make for great TV pictchures and quite extraordinary moments, which really kind of crystallized this shifting of power in Westminster. The first one was that footage that we've already seen now of Andy Burnham att Manchester Piccadilly Station being kind of surrounded by people I assume supporters, they didn't seem like they were particularly angry, but what looked like a mob of supporters almost cheering him on his way onto the train. He was due to arrive at one PM. I think his train was actually delayed in the end. But it was followed by a Sky News helicopter the entire way down. I mean, this is just an extraordinary thing to film, isn't it this train making its way down to London as the Prime Minister in waiting arrives. And what's quite funny is that when he got on the train in Manchester, he was dressed in a trademark black t shirt And then We're told because we're sitting in our room cupboard recording this as he arrived, he has now arrived in London. We're told that he stepped off, suited and booted, presumably having got changed in the Avanti train Lou. The number of times people have asked me, do you think he'll wear a suit if he becomes Pime minister Well there you go can wear a suit see pictures, though we need to seeet he' weing tie, becausecause that' very crucial. Okay, good point. Well, we will find out because at three PM He will then go to the traditional photo of the parliamentary Labour Party whenever a new MP is elected, they all get together in Westminster Hall and the new MP stands at the front and they all do a celebratory photo. Now one of the interesting things about this is that Usually what happens, the etiquette of these occasions is that the Prime Minister, the party leader leads the new MP in to great cheers from the rest of the Parliamentary partarty. That unsurprisingly is not going to happen this time. There will be no kst arma. leading Andy Burnham to his ceremony in Westminsterhall photo. And then of course he'll head into the Cons chamber where he will be officially sworn in as an MP. and he'll be watched one imagines by MPs from right across the House, including Reform, who he's going to be focusing a lot of attention on in the coming weeks and months. And Nigel Farage has already said that there should be a general election as a result of this change in leadership What is going on here frankly is reminiscent of a banana Republic that has totally devalued the very process of general elections and democracy I demand We at reform demand A general election I mean, that's kind of like a fairly predictable response from an opposition party. Should you probably just remind people that when I was out with Andy Bernam in Makerfield a couple of weeks ago and pressed him on this point about whether to be aestnaped genereral election, he really didn't want to answer it. But eventually he said, lookook, I think people have had enough of us knocking on the door for now, which to me was a very strong signal that he has no plans for a general election anytime soon Well, I was talking to an MP who's not a huge Andy Berham fan just now. and they said they were actually arguing for a leadership contest. they said, lookook, we either have a contest and Andy is tested now, or we're going to have to have a contest in a year's time. and he's going to have to put himself to the population as a whole. So there are people in the Labour Party who think there needs to be an election. there is no leadership There needs to be an election soon. Yeah. And the things you'll be considering though, is whether there's a bounce in the polls When as expected, he enters Downing Street. If there is, then he might be tempted to capitalize on that However, he will be very aware of MPs, particularly from his own area in Greater Manchester who are very nervous about losing their seats. Andy Berham's Prime Minister saves more labour seats than Kirst Stama would were there to be an election tomorrow, but still many Labour MPs would lose their seats and they will be desperate for survival, desperate for a couple of years to turn things around and will be very strongly advising him or making their views clear to him if he ends up in Downing Street, that that's not what they want to see. Now let's pause here for a moment and when we come back, we'll have a quick look at Kirstama's legacy and ask if anyone can govern the UK Welcub is back and because we have no off which football Weekly is going daily. If you want a podcast with more footballing heritage than a Brazil number ten, more talent than a French starting eleven and more predictable than an England penalty shootout, look go further. We'll have thirty three daily episodes covering not just the goals and the glory, but the politics and the problems of this year's tournament. Can England and sixty years have hurt join me, Max Ruston, our expert panel and Barry every day of the tournament World Cu up Daily, listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch the full episodes on YouTube Per this might be a moment just to back on what's happened over the last few years. And actually in the last forty eight hours, I've been asked one question, I would say more than any other, especially from friends who live abroad, but also from friends who live here who not necessarily engageed with the day to day politics so much. But Basically it goes along the lines of What went wrong? this guy just won a huge majority, seems to have done a bunch of sensible things was well respected on the international stage. Why have you just ousted him? Yeah, It's a difficult one, isn't it we sort of Because we're so close to all of this, we see how it all unfolds, the little moments that maybe don't grab the headlines where you kind of think, oh actually there's been a real shift in position or Labour MPs have changed their minds or you know this particular action is something which could you know which could lead to him becoming undone on their own don't seem like much, but then sort of as a collective whole really just lead you to the position that we've been in over the weekend that your gut just tells you that This is it, it's over. And my God, as you said right at the beginning here and we've been here enough times in recent years to recognise these moments I'd say though that Kirstarmer's problem now is the same as Kirstarmer's problem was when he first came in. They came in on the back of a loveless landslide as it's been called, He who won this massive majority, but it was It was to a large part based on the electorate deciding that they wanted to bring an end to fourteen years of Tory power And when it came to how his party and how the public felt about him, they had concerns then anyway. They had concerns that he wasn't charismatic enough, he couldn't communicate sufficiently in a way that you need to be able to as a politician these days to be able to connect with the public And they also were concerned about his a vision, I suppose that sort of they didn't really know what Kr Stama stood for. I mean, even now you could wander around Westminster and speak to labour MPs'd been Prime Minister for two years and say, you know what did Kirststama stand for for? And they kind of go, well He wanted a fairer country, but they struggled to go much further than that And then the last thing which has become increasingly clear over the last two years, which wasn't clear at the start is that big question about political judgment. And there's been a series of missteps really. some by Starmer, some as a result of decisions made by his Chancellor Rachel Reeves or his political advisors, but nevertheless, they've ended up with him in a place where people doubt his political judgment. And they range from theres early decisions on winter fuel, on his handling of the welfare bill his appointment to Peter Manderson as UK Ambassador to Washington and his responses to major moments which have seen him U turn on decisions and have taken his party with him and sent out cabinet ministers to defend his position and then for him only to sort of step back, again sort all of those things bringing into question is political judgment. So those three things, which people had some concerns about at the beginning and still have even greater concerns about, the signcis were there from the very start And it's very easy, I suppose with the benefit of hindsight to say that But they are consistently the three things that have brought him to this point I was just talking to a labor MP, actually one who did call for Kistama to resign. and she was saying, o, you know, the problem was the cs. they could ever communicate the good things they were doing. And lots of people then list People on the left will list a whole load of things which this government has done, which are probably make it the most progressive government in twenty or thirty years. They include much higher spending, especially for investment, higher taxes. They include getting closer to the EU, using the money raised by taxes to invest in schools and hospitals pushing on the net zero agenda, greater access to childcare, greater powers for state schools and a kind of departure from some of the consonservative government's education policies, and of course, ending the two child benefit particularly want to highlight that house one because this is for me, what's gone wrong. First of all, it's worth saying that Kirstama does not like politics He doesn't like almost anything about it. It doesnn't like having to there and ask for votes He doesn't like having to sort out disputes within his government He doesn't like having to point in a certain direction and say, right, everybody, let's go over there He likes to do the managerial bits of it, but not the polit of him. And what that means is for some of the decisions he's made, he's made because he's been placed in a position where he has to take them He has been almost a passenger in his own government T child benefits is a classic example of this. He spent ages, months, years, telling us that scrapping the two child benefit was not affordable and they wouldn't be able to do it Then he loses the welfare bill rebellion And then he turns around and says, all right, well, I will find the money for it after all. And then he tries to claim credit for it. It's not a comms problem that you can't spin your way out of that The fact is, he didn't want to do it. He was put in a position where he had to, and then he did it, and then he tried to claim credit for it Unless you're willing to set out a course and pursue it Then you will not get the credit afterwards because voters are not stupid. They know that you haven't taken that decision deliberately, that you've been put in a position where you have to take it, and you're not going to be able to go to them and say, Hey, look at all these great things I've done. And then he lost the faith of his Labour MPs. There's one conversation I had last week. I was wandering through the corridors of the House of Commons, and there was a group of three Labour MPs from different wings of the party, you might say standing there chatting to one another and I went and joined them And one of them said to me Bearing in mind at this point Stam was still saying that he was going to fight a contest. One of them said to me He needs to come in front of the PLP, the Parliamentary Labour Party. Hst Tom has not been in front of the Parliamentary Labour Party since those local and devolved elections losses that kind of like were one of those moments that shifted the dial that we were talking about earlier And they said he needs to come in front of the POP on Monday and look us in the eyes because how can we back him unless we see he's got the fire in his belly and he's going to do this And it was a perfect kind of encapsulation of everything you've said about Stormmer resisting politics of it, almost feeling like it was beneath him, really And he's not surprised you to hear and now he's said he's going to resign, going to go to the PRP tonight on Monday night, either K. he's sending, I think it is Hillary Benn, the Northern Ireland seecretary instead. So it would be a very different type of event, but what will be interesting and a reason why we or some of our team will be standing outside the door of the committee room corridor where this event takes place later on this evening is to see whether Andy Burnham turns up. He would have been sworn as an MP. and if he walks into the room, what the reaction will be what reception he'll get. I was chatting to one Andy Burnham, one very close member of Andy Burnham's team over the weekend. I asked them, Andy Burnham iss going to return to Westminster on this tide of glory next week and he's already being contacted by MP from right across the party who want to sort of kiss the ring. How do you think he's going to be able to deal with that? And this person said to me actually, this is one of my concerns about him is that he loves to be loved. Now where have you heard that before? Boris Johnson? He's going to have to toughen up, they said. He's going to have to learn that he needs to do things that people, including in his own party really won't like So can he be ruthless when he's at the very top level of government in a way he never had to be as M of Great of Manchester in a city which was run by predominantly labour councils, That's going to be a real test for him and it' be interesting to see what message he delivers Labour MPs if not tonight at the PLP than certainly in private in the days ahead. Just going back to Kistarma for a moment, because I think this brings us around to a question we've asked before. We've listed there a bunch of reasons why Kosamo was not brilliantly suited to the job of being Prime Minister and a list of reasons why in the end, the Parliamentary Labour Party turned on him There is an alternative explanation Kissama was perfectly suited to that job as have been several people before him But the fact is, as we said at the beginning of the podcast, we are now about to go into our seventh premiership in the last ten years Is it the case that there is just something ungovernable about our country? Has politics changed so much that you can no longer have a prime Minister who stays in office for five, six, ten, fifteen years Big question while there has been a huge amount of dysfunction top of politics, and particular leaders like Boris Johnson and Liz Truss stand out for their real of suitability to the top job. There are others Rishi Sunak, Tresa May even, Kir Starmer, who depending on the times could have felt much more suited to them. And there have of course been moments where they stepped up, particularly Kistar on the international stage, where he has looked very prime ministerial and sort of looked like he was living up to what was expected of him in the role So the answer to that question can't then just be that these individuals, you know, it's failures at the top of government, it's know poor leadership. for why we've ended up here. you know the boxing themselves in, all those sorts of things. I think they're factors. but I do have some sympathy with those people who think that Britain is becoming ungovernable and I think public is possibly not realistic about politics can do to fix the problems that we have. This is sort of a combined with sort fallen living standards and a decline of high streets and people's local environments There's been this sort of growing chasm between between local communities and Westminster that makes people feel that they lack agency, they lack power. And that is all exaggerated by the ways in which we now communicate, the power of social media and the expectations that people have for immediate solutions And so Ten, fifteen years ago, George Osborne was able as Chancellor to sit there and talk ad infinitum about a long term economic plan. Now nobody gets the chance So it kind of feels to me that at some point politicians need to level with the public that You can't fix this massive systemic social care crisis. You can't fix this massive energy transition. You can't fix this transformation in the NHS. in a matter of weeks or months or even years. it takes time and politicians aren't given the time. and part of it is that they don't argue for the time And unless somebody makes that case, the next Prime Mister and the one after that are going to end up in the same position We can come back sit in this room in two years time and see whether that's exactly what has happened But for now that is all from us Please like and follow pololitics weeekly to make sure you keep getting our episodes in your feed But before we go, I just want to tell you that the Guardian's Award winning foootball weeekly podcast is turning into World Cup daily Join Max Rushton, Barry Glen Dellening, and the team as they discuss every big match and every big moment, every day of the World Cup Listen now where if you get this podcast, or watch it on YouTube And please continue to get in touch. We love hearing from you, particularly when there's so much going on in Westminster pololitics. The email just remind you is politicswekly UK at theguardian. com This episode was produced by Frankie Toby, music by Exel Ccutier, and the executive producer is Maz Ebdahj. Goodbye. Bye bye This is the Guardian