Military Strategy and NATO Integration

This is the Guardian I don't want to agree or disagree with President Trump. He has his own relations with Putin. But I always said to him that I think Coding is lyed Someone who's helped you before is the king. Is he still helping you? Yes, but I will not tell you. It's up to his Majesty to answer on such questions. I'm Pippa Krer. Hi, I'm Luke Harding. and this is Politics Weekly for the Guardian We are here at a Central London Hotel where we're about to interview Volodyimyr Zelensky, the president of Ukraine, who's been over, meeting Kir Starmer, Emanuel Macron and Friedrich Mertz to discuss how Britain, France, and Germany can continue to support Ukraine in its conflict with Russia. And the interview is taking place at a really interesting time where Ukraine is smashing up targets inside Russia in occupied territory using long range drones, with St. Petersburg burning, Vladimir Putin's home city. and there's a real mood of kind of cautious optimism in Ukraine that maybe the tide is turning in its favour. Thank you very much, Mr. President. Thank you for talking to the Gardian today V War in Ukraine, situation is looking pretty optimistic for Ukrainians I talk to, their mood is up, we see Long range strikes on Russia, we see mid range strikes in occupied territory Yes Ukraine winning the war In your opinion, are you winning Thanks so much. So I'm so sorry, but it's difficult to use the world optimistic about the war. I mean to me, because it's, you know, We will be very happy when the war will end And of course The situation on the battlefield is much more better than it was during the year to But this is looks Really Optimistic for us, but you know that the situation on the battlefield can change EJ But we see that steps last some months are more strong from our side. And Russia We can't say that they are losing this war, but we can say that they are losing this initiative each day day by day They're losing this They are not winning the war This is so important for us It's another step in this war. It's another page in this Absolutely terrible history We really hope that we can Seat Speak and stop. war. You wrote an open letter last week to Vladimir Putin and I you know, I listened to his reply and he said that Russia is advancing everyverywhere all across the front linine Do you think he is lying because he's KGB or he's given wrong information or he lives in a kind of parallel Reality Well how do you explain his behavior in his reply to you. It doesn't matter the reason why he's lying I mean, he's lying from the very beginning the reasons why the roouts why he began this war, saving Russian speaking people and etceta, all this absolutely They lied about it. It's Russian narratives or disinformation They use it to Joined their society, different people, military, pro war or anti war, they wanted to join all of them and to join all of them against the life in Ukraine. So last year, last February, I was in the White House, the day before you met Donald Trump for that meeting, and I asked Donald Trump whether Putin could be trusted when it came to peace negotiations. and he said yes. But from what you were saying, do you think that face to face negotiations can work if he can't, as you suggest, be trusted? It's difficult to say, I mean what can war I think that in any way, we need to use all the opportunities to move to the diplomacies I don't want to agree or disagree with President Trump because he has his own relations with Putin. But I always said to him that I think can't trust Putin Today's Russia So And And I always said to President Trump that Putin is lying. He play games with you with White House and with American society. But God bless American societyies strong support, I think strong support of Ukraine Do you worry that he is distracted by what's happening in the Middle East and Iran? We've seen war attacks overnight. His interest has gone, it seems from the outside, from Ukraine and Russia to the Middle East. of a problem for you Of course you are right I agree with you Tot. Of course, from the very beginning of the war in the Middle East, especially war with Iran The focus shifted to Middle East from Ukraine is true It's not about they believe that they war in Ukraine or that they can stop. Pion or not it's not about it. I think that American interests are more in the Middle East. We see it by using the A power their messages and giving huge support not only to Israel. I mean this American army, their bases It's understandable. so many missiles, so many weapons We never had So we are thankful for the things we've got from Allies, but we never had such volume support' true. So I think this is the answer Yes, he shifted there, but we see it's a pity they I'm not sure whether they have ceasefire It's a pitter. bit Can I ask about Crimea because Really, what's been happening in the last few days is extraordinary bridge is destroyed, one of two crossings There's no fuel because of Ukrainian strikes. There are no trains because of Ukrainian strikes Do you feel that you are closer to liberating Crimean now. than at any time in recent years and how would you do that? What is your plan for deccupying southern Ukraine? If you can tell us? We always share open information about the past Okay And we never say about future operations Yes. now I can only communicate that We work on Crimean logistics on the deficit with petrol And this It's all about infrastructure. I think the most the victory in this war when Russian society will recognize that the war is awful that the war is a tragedy not not for Samone. somewhere for themselves And I think this is the Mantum when Russian society will recognize, and we are very close to it. Do you think it's important that Your allies, Ukraine's allies across Europe, continue to invest, NATO members, continue to invest in defence spending It's very important to invest not only in Miltech to invest in Ukraine and Milch, because of these war, we have such experience There is no price of this experience. It's not about money, it's about people's lives That's why we will share this priceless information and experience with our allies UK is among them. And NATO is very interested in it. It's a huge volume of information We used to talk about whether Ukraine should be allowed to join NATO. Now it seems it's the other way around. because can NATO join Ukraine? I think that is an interest NATO It's in big interests of NATO yesterday, we spoke a little bit about it with it three countries and they understand that today To have Ukraine in NATO, it's in interests of NATO. Of course, in interest of us, like the part to be a part of a big alline and to be through our friends who helped us during the war and to strengthen NATO And of course it's also in our interest And between us Russia still It doesn't estimate it. It's also in the interest of Russia. British people have supported Ukraine and for many years have felt that it was a cause that we should the government should support But they're seeing the government spend billions of pounds on defence equipment and support for Ukraine And we have seen in council buildings across the UK that used to have the Ukraine flag flying Reform, one of the British political parties on the right has taken over these councils and removed the Ukraine flags How can you encourage them to continue supporting Ukraine? And does it make you feel sad to hear that the flags are being taken down UK British people helped us from the very beginning of this war It's because of not only values as well as are important, but also it's about security. It's about security in Europe interests of UK. For example, C draws what we have All about defending the coast to secure the sea. We're securing Europe as well, isn't it? The Etern flag? Absolutely. And as I said, sharing the technologies which we have UK doesn't have it And they recognize it, they Don't have it But we are on the way sharing with them A lot of different things. What about the flags being taken down? I think I hope they will put it back So what can I say? I think that I don't want to be involved to any political things, but I think you know, the world is so sensitive today. I mean this Sometimes little, little small mistakes can break big friendship or huge contacts which' been developed from the very beginning. and I think peopleople have not to do anything which can break. A friendship And even if people do it, I mean, o, okay. so you did it Please let's come back. to the table, lets speak, let's understand each other. We need each other was such N neighbor of Europe with such country as Russia. And with such big challenge with a person who is almost thirty years managing One. big country by pressure Not by economy, by pressure on his society and pressure on Europe And he has big influence and he had more influence on different by Soviet countries Soviet repepublics which are now independent and it's a big chance to be really independent really independent. So we can't lose each other with UK thirty three days, thirty three episodes, No off switch. From the goals and thegory to the politics and the problems of the World Cup, If you want soccer analysis from a podcast that's been over analyysing the game for more than twenty years, then this is it. Join me, Max Rustton and our expert team of soccer journalists every day of the tournament. Can England end sixty years of hurt? or will this be another year of falling just short Probably World Cup Daily, listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch full episodes on YouTube One person that Putin sent to talk to you recently was Ramanna Bramovich, who used to live here Now he sold Chelsea for two point five billion pounds. That money was supposed to go to Ukraine and it's sitting in a bank account When he saw you recently in Kyiv, did you ask him for? He didn't bring this m? He didn't bring this money. Did you ask him for the money? No no I said that. We need your money about. Did you say? I don't remember dont I don't want to lie about it. Okay, but you know, do you think the British government should do something because they're talking about leegal action now because he refuses to give you. Prime Minister told me that he iss trying his best and So And I know that our teams, our diplomatic teams speak about it and of course you know, difficult moment We need more We need more security and, you know especially with antiballistic. We are trying through Pural program plurl buy from the United States anti ballistic missiles, they are very expensive. four million three, four million one misses. And it's so expensive. And of course, this money can help Yeah. I mean, I'm just curious Why did you meet him I mean, he's a Russian oligarch. He's part of the Russian systems secretly set by Putin. what did you what was your I think there are different people around Putin. I think the half of them want to continue this war. of them want to stop this war. And I think that people who are from business They understand that the economy is in terrible situation in Russia. and that they will lose the economy totally. and when they will lose economy They will lose control because they will not be able to financially to support their society. So it's up to them. it's their society, but of course we don't want them to be strong. And I think that people from business, they understand that they're very close to collapse of course, is if Western countries if Europe and not only Canada not only and the United States will not lift the sanctions, will put more pressure if we will continue such steps, not stop not make stupid pauses and we from our side will will stay strongly on the battlefield and will use our how we say long range sanctions. so I think that they will be closer to the peace. That's why I think that this businessman, he came to give the message. I said, so we are ready from the very beginning. We didn't w this war and we want to stop this war, but openly we want to stop you That' because I mean this is up to you. If tomorrow you will decide to stop this war, it meant that the war will stop. You've suggested how important sanctions are as part of a tool to deal with Russia in Britain Unlike the rest of Europe, we are still importing jet fuel via third party from Russia via third party countries were out of step with the rest of Europe Would you like to see Britain in Europe? aligned on sanctions? Yes, of course. Yes, of course. and but sometimes youK move some very positive narratives with sanctions with shadowfully, sometimes they move there where you are very force in some sanctions But now we need more We need more and be as quick as possible because I think that we're very close Russia will decide Yes, of course, it depends on Putin That what we sorry decide what Yes, to decide to move to this military half of his suckcle. Okay, military decision is to increase mobilization R, to decide move forward to decide to fight to the end. And I'm sure that it will be the end of of his country But I think this is a big mistake, not because of of, you know him and et cetera. But it's about that if the way to the end of the war is longer will be longer, lose we will lose a lot of people. And this is the problem. and this is the shame for all the world that we can't stop this person. Your letter last week There was a kind of threat Basically, you were warning from history that when you know, change comes and kind of suggesting that maybe Putin would be swept away Do you see that scenario that if things go badly, worse and worest for Russia that ason will be removed I think that as I said to you, that they are losing strong position not only on the battlefield, They arere losing a lot of people They arere losing influence, as I said on different countries including Moldoa, Armenia, Azerbaijan, as I said, and they are isolated by Europe and between us United States also. so they are alone So the question when his society will recognize that they' alone So they will have questions to Putin You had the meeting last night with Merz and Macron and Starmer There is a NATO summit coming up. What more now at this crucial moment would you like from the UK? couldould the UK and the other European countries do to help Ukraine? Not too much things, which can strengthen us and move Putin to dialogue quicker And I'm very open with this Sorry that I'm repeating these four years but it's, you know, like a school likeike our school teacher she always said, you have to each day to repeat And you will know And eventually you'll get it. I hope that yes. I'm not a bad teacher. So I'm just repeating and it's about antabibolistic.. All are the things we Lnt. how to produce by ourselves. And did they say last night that they would give you that? they will help us with ananti Balisic. I gave them examples and of course, UK doesn't have anti ballistic and anti ballistic system, and that's why anti ballistic missiles. By the way, I hope that we will have European with UK together. We work on it. We need anti ballistic system and UK needs. And I think this is important. So this is the first The second point sanctions. everybody was agree, we are on the same side with sanctions how to make it stronger The sword point We need to move our army two contracts. because it's very dangerous to be a soldier Today we need to give them respectles sailorors because they give their lives And this is important for me. We need this money And I hope that friends will help But we need to make such decisions. It's better than ask me several times how we can help you Better to help us with this to strengthen our army. This is the best way. someone who's helped you before is the king And I understand you're going to go and see King Charles. Yes. Shortly. Last time I met you, you said that King had raised Ukraine with President Is he still helping you? Yes, but I will not tell you. What's he doing? No no I can't It's up to hisis Majesty to answer on such questions. What about we? His Majesty and But you have a good relationship? Yeah we have a very good relationship. You know, Today in the morning when I spoke by phone with my wife F with all d respect to to K But my wife said best regard to his majesty. of course, of course. And then to Prime Minister, of course. So I mean that of course we and Ukraine loves his majesty. And one day would you like to invite King Charles to Kieve between these Today, I want to invite him very much. I don't know from the point of security and etcetera Yes, so of course we want to see him in Ukraine very much. and of course I don't know how it will be this year if it's possible, but of course we want to see him Okay. thank you very much. Thank you very much to see. Thank you So Luke we've just finished our interview with Pilodyimy Zelensky. What what did you make of it? I thought it was a really good interview. I've talked to him a couple of times before in Kieiv. He's funny, he's unpredictable. He answers the question, which is amazing for a politician. He said a wonderful thing about King Charles who he's just about to go and see that his wife had called up, said send best regards to the king, then to Kv Starmer I actually my assessment is that he's feeling pretty buoyant at the moment. The war is as he told us is going bad at Ukraine that has been for the last two and a half years And I think that gives him a certain confidence. Yeahes, he does feel like he slightly regretted the fact that Donald Trump the U S. have moved their focus to the Middle East And he talked about how European allies were really important, how being strong on sanctions was really important because this is a moment where Vladimir Putin feeling cornered, could react by going full pelt for the military option The alternative obviously is that he's boxed into a corner and he can't act, but that needs the support of international allies, which of course what his visit was about. And I think we've got one interesting answer on British domestic politics about the fact that these reform councils, newly elected have been pulling down Ukrainian flags. and initially he didn't engage with that. And then he sort of said, well, I hope they put them back up again and said that you know mistakes can happen and mistakes can spoil strong friendships. I think that's a pretty strong signal that he's not thrilled by that at all. And of course, he's speaking from a position of experience having had a very volatile relationship with Donald Trump and the United States. And really, you know this visit and many of his international visits are about sort of maintaining those strong alliances that Ukraine's built, that they need that international support. And this, of course, is no different. Yeah, And I think one last takeaway from this is that the Americans are out I mean, I've interviewed him before, and we've spent half the interview talking about Donald Trump. and this time, we didn't because Trump is not really actively engaged. in Ukraine. And also he said that he felt that Donald Trump was being lied to by Putin. So he obviously thinks that you know He's like you say, he's out the equation now. He's out the equation. and really it's the Europeans. And my sense is that he gets on well with with Stalma Micronoms that there is sort of key allies. And I love the question about whether Um NATO should join Ukraine rather than Ukraine joining NATO because everyone knows that the Ukrainians have got the best toughest, most innovative, creative battle hardened army in Europe and frankly, you would want them on your team. presumably as well, the urgency of the situation won't be lost on him. I mean we're in a situation where K Starmer in the UK at least is in quite an uncertain position, whether he's going to be prrime Minister by the end of the year even. There's the French elections in twenty twenty seven where Eanuel Macron will step down and somebody else will take over and we don't know yet who that is and whether they are as a supportive of his Ukraine as he might be. So there's a lot of uncertainty politically in Europe that will be lost on him and presumably he'll be feeling that he needs to make the most of the relationships he's got right now. Well, that's true, but also he was saying that in what you might call post Soviet space, although Ukrainians hate that phrase, thingsings are kind of going Ukraine's way. So we had he mentioned the election in Armenia where the pro European candidate won and the Russian backat guy lost Moldova as well, which is an and Hungary, closer to home. Hung, he got hungry as well. and one of his key points was that Russia is isolated. I mean, that's not quite true. We didn't talk about China or North Korea or Iran, all of whom are Russian allies. But in the European space, that is certainly true. So this is a big moment for Ukraine. What do you think the future holds N? Well, Well, we don't know. My sense is the war will continue so long as Putin is there Do you know I guess this is a scoop. Is it a scoop that is that Vlodymy elensky wants the king to visit Kyv. and you know, I spent Definitely a scooot. I've spent almost five years in Ukraine. I've seen Biden there, I've seen other world leaders. I quite like seeking Charles getting off that train at Kyv station I'm being met by the presresident and I think it may happen. I to look forward to. Yeah. Thanks for listening. This episode of Politics Weekly was produced by James Tyndale and Jacob Lieenberg, with thanks to David Levine, the executive producer as Maz Ev Deaj, the music by Axel Cakutier, and Kiran and I with m Gardian