Policy Impacts and Future Government Strategy

Am I tough enough? A strong and stable leadership? Total rubre. Hell yes, I'm tough enough. Shut Fidge. Not another one. It's the politics show cast Alan Milbin, you are our former health mininister Today you've put out a landmark report. That's what it's being called. landmark report onn what's going on with young people, overver a million young people, not in educational work Can you talk to me about some of the reasons you've seen why young people aren't involved in anything at the moment I think the starting point is that It's stillertain not young people's fault You know, sometimes there's a story out there that young people are soft or flaky or not resilient. They've given up on work Honestly, that's not the experience I've had is I've gone around the country talking to young people, talking to parents, talking to counselils, employeers, etc The story I hear more from the Nob is Young people want to work They want to have the opportunity to do so. They're putting in a huge amount of effort. so You talk to young people and they'll say Very typically, I've done dozens of job applications, sometimes hundreds of job applications Never hear anything back Literally, nothing, no response, no feedback, total silence. So it's the silence. s not just dents their confidence but kills their hope And so this going on And then in our polling that we've done for the review, eighty four percent of these young people not in education employment and training actually want to work. So this is a generation that wants to work, but somehow isn't getting the opportunity to do so. So we think something hass changed in the labor market and the jobs market for young people. That's not something over the last couple of years. It's probably something of the last couple of decades fewer Saturday jobs, part time jobs thingsings that people could get into declining apprenticeships for you people over the last ten years has been quite acute So the opportunities that my generation had go into almost walk into work to te work for the first time, that's become much harder the g So that's up It's like almost like a perfect storm that's happened and young people are in the middle of it. And you've found it's an endemic problem. It's been an issue that's lasted decades because I think the sort of the casual observer might argue, well since COVID, young people haven't wanted to leave the house. and obviously that has presented some issues that you've now presented in your findings, but it's not the whole picture? No, absolutely not. It's not just about post pandemic problems. either to do with mental health or to do with the jobs market. The neat rate, the rate of young people who are not education employment and training That hasn't been below ten percent Barely at all in twenty five years. So this has been a it's been like an elephant in the room. Everybody's sort of known the somethingiming there, but nobody's bothered to really look at us. So it's one thing to be ignorant, it's quite another thing to be neglectful. It hasn't been taken seriously And now it really is serious when you got one in eight young people of the Sage Red, sixteen to twenty four who were neat. We say that that will rise to one in six unless somebody does something about it. s's a disaster That's like a generation on the sccrappy We can't afford it as a country. They definitely can't afford it. So something's really got a change. and I think this time, in the sense, what we're trying to do with this is make it a moment in time where we say Guys Do you think this is sustainable? Be I don't? You you think it's right? because I don't? you think it's fair? I don't You know, do you think This generation should have the same opportunities as my generation. You bet I do. So let's do something about it One of the things you talked about in your report was this almost a cliff edge that some young people are experiencing. So say they've been receiving hit payments because of their mental health, they're worried that if they go into work They won't they'll lose access to those benefits haps Those are the more H hard nose might say, well, tough, you've got to get on with it. But you're arguing that perhaps there's a way actually, to work alongside. young people who are experiencing these difficulties. I mean look You know, do we want to keep spending the amount of money that we spend on welfare and on benefits? Do we really think that's sustainable No, we don't Would I like to see a little benefits Bill? Yes, I would What's the best way to do that? It doesn't just say, oh, we'll pick an arbitrary figure and just cutos from the welfare spending. all you got to get is young people into work. If you get young people into work, then guess what They're earning a wage, they're paying the taxes, they're becoming less reliant on benefits over time. That's a good thing, not a bad thing. The problem is the way the system is set up at the moment, we tend to spend more money just on benefits than on helping young people into work the analysis we've done For every twenty five pounds that we spend handing out benefits to young people, we spend a pound on employment support to help them get into work. So that's, you know, That's not the answer, is it? We got to get the balance right We know that young people want to work, the system that's supposed to be set up to do that for them and to help them to do it just isn't working It dealing with a sort of old problem. The old problem was really about You know, youth unemployment is always coming gone You know, because it's easy for an employee to turn off a recruitment tap When times are hard and it's young people inevitably, he suffer from that But this is now not about temporary youthf unemployment. Six in ten of these people have never works was four intam twenty years ago. something profound has changed and the system just hasn't caught up You said that there's an issue as well well Young people are reporting to you that they don't feel school prepares them for work. I mean how common is that? Very common. everyverybody that I talked to, I was with a group of young people this morning in Islington in North London. I was asking them this question, what did it feel like? Did you feel set up the world of work when you left school. everyverybody always says no. That's what employers say by the way. employers say look, they might have got the qualifications, but have they got the attributes that are necessary to be successful in the workplace? Can you make eye contact? Can you communicate? Can you collaborate? Have you got agility? Have you got adaptability? That's what employers are looking for nowadays you need the qualifications. It's a good idea to get good qualifications, but you need something else as well, it's the so called I don't really like the phrase soft skills But it is those skills their employers are looking for. And that's not really what schools focus on Schools are regulated and rewarded recognized for one thing And that's how many people get to pass exams Exams are a good thing and're not a bad thing. Qalifications are a good thing, not a bad thing But honestly, it's just not enough. And this is where I said the system is a bit outdated. You know, we need to catch up with where employers are and where young people are. It's remarkable actually. when we polled employers and we polled young people about what they thought, how helpful school had been to them, we got pretty much the same result That's telling us something and it's a good idea when people tell you things sometimes to listen, I think I mean, there have been there has been a lot of investment in new schemes. you know, apprenticeships are up. There's huge investment in those sort of schemes. but do you think the problem is that young people don't know how to access them or they're not readily accessible Or do you think it's different in different parts of the country? think Look, it's a bit different in different parts of the country and the probleers are a bit different. you know, some' from the Northeast of England is't probably gather from my accent And you know, unemployment is higher there than it is in the southeast of the country. I wish it wasn't like that, but it is And so there's different local labor markets, but I honestly think a lot of these schemes have been quite good, you know when you can go back years in my generation it was something called YTS And when I was in government, it was the New Deal and then under the conservative government it was kickstar who had loads of policies, loads of programmes None of them have lasted And the critical thing is Have any of them solved the problem Prom's endemic The problem is chronic. The problem is getting worse, not getting better So we know it's not a policy or a program that's needed. It's an entirely different approach. And in my view, the approach is all got to be about This generation of young people are a bit different previous generations more anxious live through the digital age, you know, scrolling on their smartphones in their bedrooms late at night. know it is different and they are more anxious And you've got to take that into account. It's no use saying Some people say, well, I wish they were different. Well that's hopeless. isn't it? You got to meet young people where they are And if they they are like that, we're going to help them And so what I talk to employers Honestly Employers are up for this. They do want to do it. and what the government has got to do is help them to do it. got to help them to do it. Employers want are taught to loads of employers, you know, the big employees, Amazon, Markson Spencers, John Lewis, McDonald's, those type of employees and they're the entry level jobs that typically This cohort of young people go into they want to employ more of them That's great. So let's make it a bit easier, album Hder One of the best jobs I ever had actually, was John Lewis. Jon Lewis. He's a delivery driver. We do. You did delivery. I was. You know my first job was ell me I was a newspap delivery boy in the west end of Newcastle and I was about thirteen or four V And I got sacked because like well because I was like I read other adol lesson boy I couldn't get out of bed. and I was delivering morning newspapers, which had ever arrived. and then One morning or, you know, mid morning probably I turned up in the middle of the summer holidays at the news ag and thking should give me my papers to deliver? And she said, you sacked and that was it. And it was like for me it was like a moment of the only time I've ever been sacked so far in my life, but it did teach me a lesson, which is U if you put in effort you get a reward. If you don't put in effort you get something else So those tim It's impressive as well to that that's your only time you've ever sat. deser N never been done in either. So ha'ving been caught. I' so So yeah, so it's sort of but honestly in those days, you could just walk into air You know, it's not so long ago that people could walk in do, I don't know. You could walk into a restaurant and have a CV and say we got new jobs That is just not happening now So that's a conversation to have with employers to say, okay guys The rungs on the career ladder, the bottom rungs have sort of risen up peopleeople can't reach them What are we going to do to bring those opportunities down a bit And if employers really want to do that, that's a great thing, and the government should be helping them to do it Seaan, you know time is No. Time to thank one of our partners. Okay who is? So Saily, Sean. So recently, I was in Bosnia. you remember that Do you remember that? yeah. Yeah ye big fan of it, beautiful weather. However You cannot use your sim there So I downloaded an ESN. veryer easy to do, straight on the app store, looaded that up and I was able to use my internet know funnilyy enough, I actually used Sali when I was in India as well. Did you? Yeah yeah. After about a day there, I had ran out of all of my data, but same thing again, Sali, bing bang bong yourself a little in there. and it didn't cost that much either. I was actually very impressed by it because my elderly relation, sorry, not my partner, just to be clear . Someone who's a little bit older than us who was on the trip, he actually downloaded it himself and I thought I was going to have to help him to configure it to his phone. And I didn't. He did it all by himself. It was really actually quite easy. Yeah I think I know who you're talking about Yeah. You do know I was talking about. Yeah. It's all about four, don't you worry about it. I'm going to be using it next week as you know I'm going away You've an insatiable hunger for sailing. I'm going to go on into the app store and I'm going to download the Salle app and I'm going to use our discount code Okay, that is politics Joe, isn't it? Yeah for fifteen percent off it is. That's not bad at all Politics show all one word, isn't it? POL IT IC S JOE. Pitics show. Well done. For how much, Sean? fififteen percent do. Well there you go. Get it for yourself. Sean, if they are looking for more details on that, where can they find it downown here podcast description box. How convenient? Godning I God say It's the pololitics showcast You mentioned phones a moment ago I mean, as a former Head of the health department How would you end up tackling the phone issue? Would you see that as a health issue? Yeah it is. I think it is. I think it's sort of Look, the government's looking at this Aab whher to ban you know, this idea of banning social media for under sixteenens and I don't know when the government's going to pronounce on that. and it doesn't pronounce before my next report, which is due out in September. I definitely will pronounce on it There's no doubt. that's interesting. We've had a small team going around the country talking to who inese talkaled about four hundred young people all over the country And they do this exercise at the beginning of every conversation where they ask them what time did you go to sleep last night? O'clock three o'clock four'lock o'clock, sometimes never So young people are in the I't call it the bedroom generation. They're in their bedrooms, they're scrolling, doom scrolling on their phones brilliant guy called Professor Peter Fonneagghy, who's leading a review for the Department of Health about mental health and Peter's view is, look, there's a real problem here because this is beginning to impact They're functioning. So it's sleep patterns, it's sort of reliability, it's concentration levels. So swimming is going on. I mean, there just is. I think we go to look at this really carefully. I mean, there's obviously a question of Is it right that you take things away from people? I generally think it isn't, to be perfectly hon perfectly honest with you But if it's having an adverse impact and it probably is, I think it's a real question that we've got to answer. No, I'm completely the same. I mean I Really you know, four o'clock in the morning and you say, why, you know, I never really, you know, this is how old I I've never really been on Instagram. so tobody said, you got to go on Instagram to see how addictive it is right? So I went on Instagant and sort of signed up and God, I was, and then an hour and a half later, I was like, how does it know? that I'm into football How does it know that I like you know, the American comedian iss now our last dead Robin Williams. I saw a love Robin Wibb, who was just sending me all these clips while I was just watching it People doing that all the time. There's something going on here But I'm not saying it's all bad, okay? becausecause it gives you access to things and there's a world of knowledge out there and you can find out what's going on, etceter But there are some downsides. No, I agree with you. I'm anti ban, but I do think it's the new tobacco. It's the new you think it is as much as that deer. Yeah It's interesting. I think that's I mean, Wes streeting, the former health seecretary saying that just the other day. So I think it's an issue to go take look it's not You know, in this debate around You know, you were asking at the outset What's causing all this? and what people love to go to is something to blame So E everybody loves to blame the benefit system or the employers or the smartphones or the parents or sometimes people want to blame young people I wish it was as simple as that I wish it was as symbol as. There's one problem. and if only we fixed that, everything will would be wonderful. The truth is you don't just need a civil silver bullet here You need a roundo ammunition If we're going to solve this because it's about metal else. It's about opportunities to work, it's about opportunities to train. It's about the fact that this generation is different from previous generations. It's about the welfare system. It's about what happens in schools and schools and the health system. So that's why I say it honestly, we don't need a new policy We don't need a new program for young people. What we need is a new approach, which recognizes that young people really want to work They really are prepared to put in the efforts. probleblem is not a shortage of backco. it's a shortage of support and it's a shortage of opportunity amidst that but we've really got Gp right. Can I ask you about housing? Yes Because that is something that comes up with the you stability in housing or stable housing And you know, you talk about it mostly through the lens of levers or you know young people who might be going from the calm system of mental health have to sort of have this cliff edge where they're pushed into the adult system and they're not quite ready to be there. It doesn't fit them. How important do you think housing is macro for young people? Massive. And I think it's got a real bearing on their employment prospects because look You know, We were saying earlier, different parts of the country are different, right? And in some areas there are lots of job vacancies. in other areas, there aren't job vacancies Housing is really very strong rel related to that because If you can't get a job in your local area You might want to move to a different area, but if you can't afford the housing You're not going to do it And Think of the average house price in London now it's crazy for a first time buyer. Think the average first time buyer in London, the age of them is now over forty So average price five, six five. I saw that. Yeahah, over half a million quid, you know? Really is that within reach, of course? You know, for some people it will be you know, the Bank of Mumand Dag will sort of help. For most people, that's way out of reach. So housing has an impact The other thing that people never talk about is transport So I was doing a piece of work in Barnsley a few years ago in South Yorkshire and where we were looking at this issue. The big employers there are two sort of big warehouses, Every and ASos. So that's their delivery, their fulfillment centers. they employ a couple of thousand people, you know, good jobs, good prospects, etcetera. But they're on the outskirts of town There are no and obviously it's a shift system, so it runs twenty four seven There are no opposes to get there at night So what happens So if you're being paid whatever it is, twenty five, twentyty six, I don't know what it is thirty thousand pounds a year, that's great But then you got to factor in buying a car because there isn't a bus or getting a taxi because you don't have your own car It becomes a more marginal decision about whether you're going to go into a job there. So these things are that's why you've got to look at it in the round. You can't just say, oh well, it's this if only the government cut national insurance contributions or if or the government did something about welfare all of this. and that's why I actually think for this isume And it's such a visceral issue in the country there. peopleople are really worried This is why it's got to be action on every front. by everybody emmployers Councils bosses. The goovernment but not just in one department across the government. because unless we all take action on this, we are dooming a generation to be lost be on the scrappy We can't afford it. They absolutely can't afford it. I mean that's just all right. And everybody bangs on about you know, not unreasonably about the economic cost of all this them, the fiscal cost and so on. But it's the moral cost This is a moral crisis It's just not right My generation had all the opportunities in the world I grew up on a councilor say if raised by a single mom, on how the privilege of ending up in a capitalist, okay Honestly, I ask myself a really hard question nowadays Is there a kid somewhere in circumstances like mine sixty years ago, goingring on a council that the start today, who's good end in the cabinet. My honestswer that is I think that's unlikely. But stunning. And that is terrible. and I find that I find it sad, I find it tragic and I find it wrong that's what we're going to do.. That's why I've got fix I know you've got to go but I just want to ask you one final question. You touched on it there about the the raising in NI contributions and the raising of the minimum wage that has come in over the last eighteen months or so Some people say that that is to blame of why employers don't want to take a chance on a young person. but is that something that's coming up in your research or is that Perhaps not one of the largest factors. Yeah, no, it is coming up. and employers raiseing with me constantly as you'd expect them to do, particularly You know, in those parts of the economy like hospitality, restaurants, hotels, that sort of thing, cafes, where often, you know, profits are sort of very marginal. they can't make a lot of money and so you get an extra cost and then it makes a marginal decision about whether to take a risk on a young person or not. because every time you hire a new young person there is a risk becausecause they of're unproven They don't have a track record, they don't have a CV, they don't have previous experience And so I think probably it has had an impact on this And that's why the government just needs to what should have been, make sure that the employer risks are minimized and the incentives are maximized. But what we mustn't do, this is where you get into the ridiculous politics of this, you can't pretend that a crisis that goes back for at least two decades has somehow being fermented or created or triggered by a policy that was introduced in the last two years I mean, that's fatuous. I'm sorry. it is. So sometimes this is why you just got to sometimes take a big step back and work out, which is what we're trying to do with this review What on earth is going onic What is really going on. Let's go under the skin of it. Let's really understand it. because unless you't understand it. T it. So you don't regret bringing in the minimum wage then So I think the minimum wage is a really important thing, you know for young workers and for older workers too. off course, people shouldn't bead I was asking that fetious, sorry. Oh no, but I mean, it's like, you poverty pay is a bad idea, isn't it? You know, People deserve to be decently paid. We just got to make sure that with all of these things that people have worked through the impact of the policies that they're introducing And I would say, Just make sure that the dots are being joined, that if you're doing something here in one government department, that another government department over here has worked out what the implications might be Sometimes, believe it or not, government isn't quite as functional as that So there's this idea of mission based government, which is that we look at these things across government departments. We look at things between what happens in Whitehoall and what happens in a local area Terrily good at that. that's one of the things that really needs to change, I think