Future vision for the Labour government

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Right Leaning Daily Express framed it as a historic peace deal, while lefte Leaning NPR notes it resulted in the president's approval hitting record lows plus data like each publication source of funding and a factuality rating. The Nobel Peace Center even called Ground News an excellent way to stay informed. Avoid echo chambers, and expand your worldview. Get forty percent off by going to ground. news slash twenty twenty six. That's ground. newews slash twenty twenty six Ground d. news slash twenty twenty six. Tough enough a strong and stable leadership. Total Rubber. Hell yes, I'm Tough enough. Shut Fidge. Not another one. It's the politics show cast When we talk about the people that Labour was formed to represent and has lost, those people who are doing the real work that really matters in the economy, the people that went out during COVID because their job couldn't be done at home, sending emails and doing PPoints. They are the working class people we are talking about who don't support us anymore. And actually we should be trying to win them back, people say, Oh but they're gone. And it's like, but why are they gone They're gone because we left them. You know we left them more than they left us. A lot of people in the party just don't want to talk about immigration. They genuinely don't think it's a priority to actually sort out the immigration issue. But it is for the country and it is for labour voters. That's where the parliamentary sovereignty stuff comes in, that belief that actually it should be the democratic Parliament, which is actually deciding these things, you know, we want the rule of law, not rule by lawyers Jonathan Ninda, MP for Pendal and Cliff. Welcome to Pitics Joe. Thanks for having me How have you been? Howave you been last couple of days, a bit of psychorama in the Labour Party, the release of the second round of the Peter files. What's it been like in the comments? Yeah, So I don't really feel like we learn that much new from the files, but obviously it put in print or in digital print what people have known for a while and it's quite stark to see it actually in those kind of whatsApp conversations between ministers and cabinet members U so yeah, very uncomfortable. I think it is going to kind of make us ask more questions about what we want the Labour Party to be and I think that's a debate that we need to have. We'll touch back on that in a moment. Yeah. You've been an MP for just under two years now open up on that two year anniversary in July. How has it been? Has it been what you expected? How have you found that kind of move from being in the police force to then being a ld party activist and then being an MP. H have you found that for the last two years? I mean it's an incredible privilege first of all, you know, and sometimes when you're running around busy, you kind of forget to appreciate that. but it is an incredible privilege But it's obviously been quite a wild ride the last couple of years. I think it's fair to say that I probably didn't know Westminster as well as most of my peers. I think you know, despite the fact that I had worked in London and the police, I'd not worked for an MP, I'd not really been involved in labour politics before leaving the police. I wasn't really allowed to. other than be a kind of paper member, if you like. So it's been a steep learning curve in terms of understanding Westminster, but also the Parliamentary Labour Party and so forth But obviously, you know, we can't get away from the fact that it hasn't gone as well as we would have liked for the government. So I think I thought that I might have a bit more time to settle in to really focus on getting to know the role But Within six months, it felt like we'd been kind of hurled into this conversation about what the Labour Party is for, where we're going and so forth, which' obviously still happening now to some extent is coming into a headad so I want to play a full part in that, but it has kind of felt like everything's been on fast forward. I'd kind of envisaged that I could spend a bit more time on policing as it happens, you know, my specialism being that and it being quite rare in the commons, I thought I would spend more time on that than I have and I'm still trying to do plenty on policing, but Also, you know I've got a of a lot of views on what we should be doing and you know, that's ultimately why I left policing to become a politician So you were selected under the kind of stararite tranch of twenty twenty four. I wouldn't say you're a kind of classic stararite, whatever that means whatever that means. You're a subscriber to the view of Blue Labor. Could you just explain to us what blue Labor is, what it stands for, what it's all about? Sure. Yeah. so I'm a socialist I believe in pushing back against capitalism's kind of tendency to exploit the commodification of people by the kind of marketized culture And I believe in solidarity. So that comes through the trade unions and once upon a time it would have come from more community groups, which I think we've got fewer of these days. and that kind of reciprocity U so we're very much of the kind of labour tradition, you know, and I mean that with a with a small el as well as a big el So if you think of figures like Clement Atley, like Ernest Bevin, we're very much of that tradition. and we believe in democracy And in the national sense, that means parliamentary sovereignty. So we're very keen that Parliament kind of reclaims that ability to actually direct the country And I suppose in a sort of more more tangible way for some people who maybe want to hear a little bit more kind of know easier to label descriptions. you know, we're very much on the left when it comes to the economy. but we haven't subscribed to the sort of hyperlberalism that you see in a lot of the Labour Party, but also in the kind of global left, particularly in the U.S And you know, so we've we've drifted away from our working class base and blue labor is is about actually representing those people, the people who, you know form constitucies like mine, of which there are hundreds across the country. and making sure that we are what we think the Labour Party really should be, which is that working class Socialist partarty It was founded by Marice Glasman. in the kind of early two thousand ten s, obviously a member of the House of Lords a labour member of the House Lord. Yeah The last fifteen years have radically change Britain. Do you think blue labour is a kind of tradition as a kind of ideology has changed with it? orr do you think it's kind of remained in that kind of post new labor, almost rebellion phase of, well, we've had this for the last twenty years. we need to think What's new? Do You you think it has changed over the last fifteen years? Well, what I would say is although it was a kind of reaction, if you like, to new labour and where it had taken the Labour Party and the country. The values, I think are You know eververlasting. They're not necessarily a moment in time, of course You have to apply to the circumstances that you're living through But that idea that what's important to people is generally their personal relationships, wanting to have meaningful work, you know, work that you actually enjoy and get a lot of satisfaction out of, which I think we sometimes miss in debates about you know the numbers on the graphs, those kind of things are eternal as far as I'm concerned. So I guess where Blue labor has kind of being seen has changed somewhat because of the way that politics has moved itself. But I think in terms of those ideas that were set out by people like Morris, by people like Jonathan Rutherford, I don't think they have particularly changed that much This this a labour government Definitely not. And I think problem we've had is that while we've used, you know, some elements of kind of blue labour thinking as a rhetorical device. we haven't actually been Dellivering on it and it's been clumsy. We've had a messenger in Kistama who doesn't really believe it being totally honest And so what we've ended up doing is kind of hacking off Uh, new progressive base, if you like by saying some things that they, you know are struggling to understand and often think are basically fake Um, and we haven't succeeded in actually winning the people we're trying to appeal to with that because they also see through it as somewhat inauthentic U and we haven't actually delivered on, for instance, you know, in the illegal migration issue, which is, you know been such a salient issue for a number of years now. So it's nowhere near a blue labour government. And you know I think if we actually want to see a blue labour government, then we're going to have to change as a party much more radically. It's not just kind of a few words, a speech here or there It's actually, arere we actually going to embody a kind of radical socialist party Oce again, which can represent those working class communities, we're quite a long way off that at the moment We were interviewing Neilaldon K Jordan, one of your labour colleagues in the House Commons yesterday about Socialism twenty six, a new program that he's b together. And he also believes the Labour Party needs to reevaluate where it is, where it's going. And they've kind of set out five things they want right now, five things by the end of Parliament, and five things for the next manifesto. bllue labour version, I'll just ask you for one thing right now, one thing by the end of Parliament, one thing for the manifesto that would make it you know more blue labour Yeah, well, I think where I would put your sp? No, that's all right. I mean where I would draw a contrast with someone like Neil or someone from the Socialist campaign group is I feel like they are often treating the symptoms of the kind of capitalist system that we're living in. And what we're talking about is having a completely different political economy, right? So we want kind of key U public sector industries to be in public control U you know, perhaps on a more municipal basis, regional basis and so forth and It's not about Giving out more benefits and also you know, being so focused on Well, we're going to have this kind of top line wealth tax or whatever it is. It's actually about go further back and have an actual program for building a fairer economy And so in terms of, you know, what we would do you know, I can't remember what the three what the three moments you want to do now then by the end of Parliament and then for the next manifesto,' kind of three over the next five years. Yeah. Well, I think in terms of what we could do on public ownership, you know, we're talking about the water industry here where it's got huge public support for it to be in public ownership. We've seen that it's completely failed. You know it's failed on its own capatitalyst terms. This is the thing about it is actually You know, you've had your chance thirty five years and all we've seen is the services get worse, the prices go up the infrastructure get worse and actually shareholders walking away with the profits. So let's actually show people Yes, okay, this is actually going to be quite a major change, but that's what people want to see. They want to see that radicalism So lets let's set out that kind of thing. But then I mean, what I would like to see as well is a little bit more of that workplace democracy. So we're talking about workers on board. So this is something which Blue Labour talked about in the early days in particular And I would really love to see more of that and only it comes along with having more vocational education So we've had this focus on universities And we have kind of actually in too many cases and the left has fall into this as well said Oh well, we're going to press the button for those skills that we really need, which is marked low migration and we're basically pillaging from abroad. rather than actually training up our own workers So it's about kind of, yes, the top line things public ownership for those key sectors, but it's also about workplace democracy actually thinking about what is the economy that we want You know, we actually have got ourselves into a really difficult situation as a country where a lot of our basic needs are not being in this country. And now that globalization, you know, people have realized is not as doable when you're not in such a benign international environment, you know there's a certain naivety and complacency We really need to think about, okay, what does this country need to produce? what services do we need to deliver ourselves And so that's where I would be looking for us to go. But I think sometimes we in politics we werere a little bit too quick to say, well, what about, you know two or three things straight away? And it's not to kind of reject the premise of your question, but I think it's a deeper thing than that. You know, it's a philosophy, it's about kind of socialism that I think the Labour Party needs to return to Some of your blue labour colleagues, both in Parliament and kind of outside that are activists have said Shabana Mamood is the kind of most senior member of Blue Labour. you would you agree that she's Blue labor believer, subscriber. I mean, she definitely is the most senior member of the government who openly says that she has a lot of sympathy with blue labour values. I think, you know Speaking to her myself, she really feels like and I can tell that she does understand the concerns of working class communities like those she represents in Birmingham, but also those that the Labour Party was formed to represent And she sees how If we're going to win these people back and let's be honest, you know we're unfortunately not a working class party in the way that we were in terms of where our voter basasees Then we've got to tackle these knaotghty issues like the immigration issue. So she's saying, well, yes, we actually want a fair migration system, but we need it to be controlled. and that's what I'm going to do. And I'm not going to kind of let the legal entanglements get in the way. I'm going to be radical in doing it. So that's where the parliamentary sovereignty stuff comes in belief that actually it should be the Democratic parliament, which is actually deciding these things. know we want the rule of law, not rule by lawyers You had yesterday in, it was technically over the weekend, but over Sunday Monday, it played out. Chenk, Weer and Hassanpika, two quite famous American left wing commentators, one's a streamer, one's more of a journalist, had their electronic travel authorization, their visa revoked to speak at the South by Southwest London confonference By the home office. Is that Around kind issues of free speech, where do blue Labour sit on that? Do they Do you agree that they should have had the ETAs revoked? Do you think their presence would have been conducive to the public good? So I mean, I'm very much in favor of free speech and I'm in favor of free speech for my opponents. and that's the real test, isn't it? And I think too many people in this debate are for free speech for their side, but when it's the other side getting it socked to them, well, oh yeah, there you are I have to say, I don't really know these two people. I obviously don't spend enough time on the internet. Perhaps some of my staff can educate me about their kind of various sayings. But instinctively, I find it troubling. I say I don't know the ins and outs of those particular cases, but instinctively I do find it troubling. think the bar for those kind of things should be very, very high. I think too often the kind of cultural left, if you like, has been quite keen on that sort of word policing And actually, I think, you know, we have got to have that open debate within reasonable bounds You want to get your backyard summer ready, but you don't want to break the bank? Wayfare gets it. Pning on dining alfresco or relaxing poolside Wayfair has everything you need to prep your space. Shop now and save up to seventy percent off during Wayfareair's Fth of July clearance. Score huge deals on outdoor furniture, area rugs, and more. We're talking thousands of products for every style and budget. Plus, sururprise Flash Deals July sixth. Don't wait. Shop Wayfare's Fth of July clearance now through july six at wayfare dot com d Pay fair, every style, every home Why does the same news story sound completely different depending on where you read it That confusion is exactly what Ground News was built to solve. It's an app and website that compares news coverage, allowing you to see how each story is framed across the political spectrum and the world. For the recent story about the US signing the memorandum of understanding with Iran, their vantage plan shows us that, Right Leaning Daily Express framed it as a historic peace deal, while left Leaning NPR notes it resulted in the president's approval hitting record lows Plus data like each publications source of funding and a factuality rating. The Nobel Peace Center even called Ground News an excellent way to stay informed, avoid echo chambers, and expand your world view. Get forty percent off by going to ground. news slash twenty twenty six. That's ground. news slash twenty twenty six Ground d. newews slash twenty twenty six. speak, I am a Ga. It's theonitic show cast big on something you said a couple of moments ago about we're not a party for the working cl. Dla I'm a Labor partymber I'll that. sureure. We're not a party for the working class anymore. Mick Lynch was on a podcast Last week or the week before his definition of the working class and that's anyone that relies on their labour to sustain their lifestyle, sustain their living We had Lis Mackenzie on the podcast earlier this year who has a very different definition looking almost a cultural kind of post industrial working class definition. What do you see as the working class in this day and age? Yeah, so I do think we probably spend a little bit too much time on this debate when most people instinctively know what it is. So you know, if you have probablyably Not being to university, you go out to work good chance that you actually work with your hands, then I would say that that's kind of squarely working class. Obviously, Mc Lynch has used the much broader definition there and that's understandable. But I think when we talk about the people that Labor was formed to represent and has lost, those people who are doing the real work that really matters in the economy, the people that went out during COVID because their job couldn't be done at home sending emails and doing powerPoints They are the working class people we are talking about who don't support us anymore because they don't think that we represent their values, even though, as I find on the doorsteps all the time in my constituency They actually have quite left wing economic values, but they just feel like the Labour Partyies drift to this liberal party rather than a socialist partarty means that they can't support us anymore. And there's a kind of sadness in their voice when they say it, which is, you know, I used to be labour could never vote labor anymore. And I think to myself, well Yes, we need to make a huge pivot, but There are people out there who actually used to vote labour and actually we should be trying to win them back. and I feel like There's this debate going on where people say, oh but they're gone. And it's like, but why are they gone? They're gone because we left them. You know, we left them more than they left us. So yeah, I think Let's not get too tied up in the definitions I think there's a perfectly good argument to say that that's, you know perhaps too narrow a definition that I've just used. But I think everyone really knows what we're talking about here. And you know we should be for those people not to labor the debate, because I accept your point about. We do spend too much time talking about it. I suppose the other argument would be that you know the people that The Laborarty was founded to represent were working class, but the nature and the precarity of work has radically changed in those one hundred and twenty six years, two hundred and twenty seven this year since the party was founded in deecember eighteen ninety nine. so surely the working class has changed with it. know deelioo drivers and baristas are you know pllumbers, for example, are some of the best paid people in the country now It's a valuable trade because not many people have it.. So I think a lot of people who might have, you know gone to university, gone to a former polytechnic and working as a barista for twelve pound thirty an hour would probably feel a lot more working class and a lot more exploited by the capitalist system than a plumber who earns sixty grand a year and controls their own hours Do you get what I I know what I mean. Yeah, I understand what you mean. And this is the thing it's not about saying that we should be for these people and not for these people. You know we should be a broad based party for the whole country, all classes. But I think the problem is the emphasis. You know, we've become this party which is more University towns, the big cities, the graduates and so forth. And that is the emphasis. So absolutely I want to be for those people as well. You know there's a lack of nuance and debate. It's not about going after reform votes or going after green votes or whatever. You know I totally understand why young left wing radical people would be saying, well, actually I'm not really sure labour's offer enough for me You know, as much as I understand my constituents and there are a lot more of them in my constituency who say Labour haven't got a grip of the immigration stuff, so I'm going to vote for reform. So you know, I don't want to exclude people from our coalition. I want to broaden it out That's the whole point There was some polling in the Sunday Times this Sunday just gone about public sector trade union members and what their Westminster voting intentions are. it had reform and Labour tide at twenty eight A theabor P party was founded by trade unions, it was a motion in the railways Union at the time in eighteen ninety nine that was the founding of the party Do you think the wider labour movement needs to you know kind of behind labor against reform, what do you see as the kind of political role of trade unions as, you know, the genereral election is three years away. What do you see their role is in kind of keeping that broad coalition, that kind of labour lower case L labour coalition together I think trade unions are absolutely fundamental to our movement and we absolutely must maintain that. You know As I say, my politics is about solidarity and that's what trade unions are all about But I wasn't necessarily surprised to see that poll you know, I've got a Rolls Royce plant in my constituency, four hundred employees and I'm a regular visitor and you know I know how they're thinking about the Labour Party and other parties and so forth. So I really wasn't surprised to see that. I think the labour movement, the trade unions have to take their share of responsibility for that as well. You know obbviously they're coming out on the back of it, criticizing the government. and I understand that. But I think A lot of trade union members would perhaps see that they have been dragged in this kind of hyperlberal direction as well and have been less concerned about the bread and butter issues that they think a Socialist Party should be. So absolutely, the trade union movement is fundamental to the Labour Party and it always should be. but I do think the Labour movement as a whole needs to actually kind of have that self awareness to think, okay, we all need to contribute to this. It's not just about this one leadership. you know And I would always say the drift away from the people that we're talking about here. it's not Kirst Starmer's fault as such. you know, this is the end of a very long process, which has gone on since the eighties. And so it's not the fault of any one leader or any individual or anything like that, but it is about acknowledging that it's happened and we need to pivot back towards them. Andy Burnham, who's contesting the Makefield by election of the Northwest N Yorkit. Yeah N York C Yeah. not far. in the Northwest. Yeah. And Have you been up yet? How youve What's it like up in Makerfield on the doors? because you know There's been a lot talk in the media that it is a reform labor race. And you know, Andy Burnham's the only labour candidate has a chance of winning. Is that something you're feeling up there? So I haven't been yet. but I'm going go over the next couple of weeks. But I think know the fact that we are looking at a constituency like that being a really tight race, even with the most popular politician in the country is a sign that we are not speaking to enough of the population in terms of our priorities and the way we've conducted ourselves over the last couple of years. So you know I really, really obviously hope that we win that by election I think Andy Burnham is someone who can speak to those different parts of the coalition that I'm talking about and bring it back together, absolutely. But at the same time, you know, if we win that by election fairly narrowly, you know, even then we should be thinking, why are we in this situation? Why don't these people? there are people Why don't they obviously want to vote labor or why we not winning these constituencies a cananta which, you know, we have done in the past. So yeah, obviously we're throwing everything at it I think we will win it But I think there will still be serious lessons to be learned. And you know if he does come to Parliament, Andy Bernon will be coming with those lessons from having spoken to so many voters in a constituency like that I think Andy Beron would be a blue labour leader of the party. Obviously, he's been on this kind of's that old joke, isn't it? A Corbnite, a Blair eite and Brown nite walk into a bar and the Bamber says, Hello Andy. you know he's gone from being a Blair Eite minister to kind of sitting in the kind of tribune kind of soft left area to this kind idea of Manchesterism of the Northwest. Do you think he would be a blue labour leader Honestly, I don't No. I don't know him well enough to say. But you know from what he said over the last couple of weeks, I think the signs are encouraging he is understanding the drift away from the Labour Party in areas like that and I think he has a good instinctive feel for that. I think he's got he's got better political antenna than most politicians in the country. So I always say blue Labour may be small within the parliamentary partarty, but actually, you know, electroral gravity has a way of re exerting itself And I think the Labour Party is bound to move in that direction if we actually want to stay as a broad based party that has working class supporters both in the towns and the cities and across every nation of the UK. So let's see. I don't know. U, But, you know, there's signs of hope How much support do you said that it's not massive in the Parliamentary Labour Party? How much support do you have? I know you founded it with two other MPs, Jonathan Brash up in Hartleverpool and Dan Carden in Liverpool Has you kind of caught on as the kind of crisis within the Starma leadership has been exasperated? So we've got a couple of dozen MPs who are sympathetic, but obviously there are people like me who are happy to talk about it very openly and you know for better or worse kind of end up labeled in that way. I know a lot of MPs are quite reluctant about that and I can know understand that to some extent And what do you think that is Well, I think because there's certain people who Uh kind of I guess skeptical of blue labor. We're obviously kind of saying a few home truths, which I don't think a lot of people want to hear. What would be an example of the home truths Well, a lot of people in the party just don't want to talk about immigration. You know they genuinely don't think it's a priority to actually sort out the immigration issue. But it is for the country and it is for labour voters. You know, this is the thing. It's not just chasing after other parties's voters. It's about normal labour voters in constituencies are like mine like where you grew up in the East Midlands theseese are just ordinary you know, people who would say, I just want you to sort this out And we obviously talk quite openly about that.s as much as anything. it's about the state actually showing itself to be competent. You know, that's one of the key things. That's why it's such a running swar is like, why can't you sort this out? And we say, o, it's quite difficult because you know we've got this intersection of all the different legal frameworks and so forth. And they go, ye, but isn't that why we elected you? Because You're going to sort it out. You're the parliament which passes the laws. Yeah So I think talking about issues like that in know such blunt terms, we're not ashamed to talk about it is difficult for a lot of labor MPs. and you know, there's a very strong progressive activist base within the membership as well, which is critical of blue labour. But you know I always say that there are a lot of labour MPs who have what I would describe as blue labour constituencies U so actually, you know, we could really build a fantastic winning coalition if we took on or these ideas in a labour government ose reform UK aren't the only threat to the Labour Party. you've got the greens to the left. How do you think blue Labour would deal with that kind of Palansky, you know new green becausecause you know, in Gordon Denton, they won what would have been a historically labour seat, I would say almost a blue labour seat, you know, very working class commity or Gorton and Denton's few places Yeah. Don a bit more, but pretty working class. You've across London and across the southeast, you've seen a real kind of move towards the Green Party. How you know, Labour has always had a stronghold in London How does the kind of blue labour tradition look leftwards Yeah, I mean, as I say, you know I describe myself as a socialist and labour very much sits within that socialist tradition. So I don't think there's any issue with us appealing to people who think that the economy is not working as fairly as it should, that we want workers to enjoy the fruits of their labor more than they do. the people again who do the real work, you know, they're not the speculators you know rent extractors and so forth. Absolutely. you know, we want that real work to be rewarded. So I don't think there's any issue with Blue labor appealing to those people at all And as I say, we haven't really been delivering in the last couple of years enough to show that we are actually driving for that f political economy to appeal to those kinds of voters. So I'm not that surprised that they're looking elsewhere. So I think it's probably a question of salience. People know blue labour perhaps more for those immigration type issues or pushing back against the identity politics because those things have been quite salient in the public debate, but actually when you look at what our views are in the round, I don't think we'd have any issue appealing to people on that basis Wh says say we go the full three years, twenty twenty nine election, you've had the full five years theabour government What do you hope people look back on this term of the labour government as and what do you to think, what you want the legacy to be Well, I think, you know, I I am sympathetic to the governments situation when it Tk office We all knew that we were inheriting a situation where we had the public finances a really difficult state and also the public services in a really poor state and the economy not in a great place. So I was very sympathetic I remain very sympathetic to that situation The key thing that we need to do is chart a course And I think that what we've seen over the last couple of years is that we haven't had a clear enough plan for where we are going and we haven't been able to articulate it. It's been piecemeal. you know, as as Starmer said